8 ms·

The prison inside: Japan's hikikomori lack relationships, not physical spaces

90 points by Ultramanoid 7y ago

kazinator 7y ago
> The term was coined by psychiatrist Tamaki Saito in the late 1990s {Citation needed.} This seems unlikely given that "hikikomoru" is a compound verb which means to stay inside. If it's nice weather but someone stays at home all day, the hikikomoru verb is used for that; it (still) doesn't have automatic connotations of it being a way of life. The "komoru" part has various meanings (according to EDICT): "shut oneself in (e.g. one's room); to be confined in; to seclude oneself; to hide away; to stay inside (one's shell)" as well as "to be heavy with (e.g. smoke); to be stuffy; to be dense", plus others.
- wiggler00m 7y ago
  > The term was coined by psychiatrist Tamaki Saito in the late 1990s I interpret the term (n. hikikomori) differently to the verb (hikikomoru) from which it is derived. The term (hikikomori): individual instance of the social phenomenon of withdrawing from society and living in persistent isolation. The verb (hikikomoru): used in reference to a specific (non-persistent) act of staying indoors, without necessarily carrying the broader sociological meaning. Edit: as another comment points out, just staying indoors for a weekend, etc.
  - Ultramanoid 7y ago
    The verb is used in normal daily conversation amongst us without the negative connotation ( as yet, given a general context ), as explained in a previous comment. It's basically just staying home when you could do otherwise. A normal reply to "what did you do last Sunday ?", etc.
  - kazinator 7y ago
    > from which it is derived. "hikikomori" isn't a derivation, but a very basic inflection supported by all verbs, used all the time.
- glandium 7y ago
  According to https://medicalnote.jp/contents/150722-000005-CTDROY https://medicalnote.jp/contents/150722-000005-CTDROY the term was coined as a translation for "Social withdrawal".
- m0llusk 7y ago
  It is the usage that makes it work. Their child is a shut away is pretty clear similar usage not uncommon in America.
  - kazinator 7y ago
    Is there a psychologist in America who is understood to have coined "shut in" or "shut away"?
    - Dylan16807 7y ago
      I couldn't name the specific person, but someone did. The words "shut in" didn't always have that meaning; etymonline says it happened around 1904. Without that you could be "shut in", but that just meant you were inside something with the door shut. It didn't have long-term or social implications.
AstralStorm 7y ago
People in quite a few countries I've been to are more and more reluctant to try and form a relationship with a stranger, especially one who does not seem outgoing. No idea about the root cause of this general mistrust. It's also easier to have substitute "network" relationships which are not complete. Abd it shows we're geared towards living in relatively small communities whee everyone knows everyone, but new forced mobility breaks that, and so do long work hours. (I believe the optimum size is somewhere around 10k and average 30h workweek, more bursty.) My personal solution to what almost happened to me was to fix the underlying problem with medication and start building from ground up. It took two lost years of my life (funny enough, during studies) and it's always a risk of relapse... The solution is unfortunately to get really creative in finding actual humanity around. It's rare but happens. It is actually quite hard for an adult to find an actual connection who isn't a spouse nowadays. You get to dig into weird social spaces like clubs (some are really niche too) and there are few guarantees. It's also for some reason harder for men because women still tend to build minimum social groups as a reflex ("coffee clatches" or rumour Mills) A lot of it is extremely superficial too which can be annoying.
- techsin101 7y ago
  Just add to that. Humans have always lived in tribes. Tribes internally were mostly socialistic but between tribes it was free trade. You could say a man few thousand years ago was more certain of his future and less stressed about career then today. You knew your village goes to farm those lands, have neighbours who will feed you when you can't, gather for stories every evening, ... Life was physically hard but otherwise easy and simple
  - nradov 7y ago
    You're romanticizing it. Very few primitive people had it easy. Life was hard and just staying alive was often complex. Especially when an epidemic came through, or your village was caught in the middle of a war.
    - chachachoney 7y ago
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
hrktb 7y ago
> “But the reality is that most hikikomori are people who can’t get back into society after straying off the path at some point,” he says. “They have been forced into withdrawal. It isn’t that they’re shutting themselves away — it’s more like they’re being forced to shut themselves away.” Articles need some narrative, and I get that it's also trying to put the spotlight on a different variant of a phenomenon. But I feel it's going too strong on the opposite direction. There must be a sizeable number of Hikikomori who cut themselves willingly from traditional society because they feel there's nothing there for them. Others, like quoted, are forced into it. I'm sure the reality of it is pretty mixed and varied, especially as the definition has been broaden to encompass people who don't get out of their homes out of pure necessity.
watwut 7y ago
Why is there such a fascination with hikikomori on this site?
- mikekchar 7y ago
  Because Japan Times says, "Oh, it's been days since we published an article on hikihomori" and publish another one. People who read Japan Times, then post it all over the place (not just HN). It gets voted up on HN for 2 reasons I think. First, there are a lot of people who use social media (like HN) as a crutch for dealing with their own mental health issues. Because they spend a lot of time trying to learn how to become healthy, they are interested in a lot of things like this (and it's not just hikikomori -- it's depression, and schizophrenia, etc, etc). Just look at all posts about various drugs and diet relating to mental health on HN. The other reason is because some people like to bash Japan (and increasingly Korea it seems to me). I don't really like the word "racist" here because it really doesn't fit, I think. It's more culturist. Some people really hate the culture and think it's wrong, so they promote stories that show it in a bad light. I would say equally prevalent are people who unduly love the culture and promote stories that show it in a good light. There are tons of overly optimistic stories about Japan on HN. Japan Times makes money from this second category (people who unduly hate Japanese culture and people who unduly love Japanese culture) and so post a ridiculous amount of trashy articles about these kinds of things. If you really want to understand Japanese culture well, I would advise avoiding it as much as possible. They are only in it to whip up emotion as far as I can tell.
  - Ultramanoid 7y ago
    > Some people really hate the culture and think it's wrong, so they promote stories that show it in a bad light. I posted this story. I certainly don't hate my own home or culture. Rather I think one must have lived a very sheltered life in Japan not to have been affected by the hikikomori issue, by alcoholism, or both, which I'd argue are the two biggest problems today in Japanese society, bar none. Japan Times criticism is valid, somewhat. It's certainly not top notch journalism, very few articles are these days. But I can't quite go and post a study of hikikomori in Japanese. Not a single person I know in Japan has had no contact with, or not suffered themselves directly these issues. Any public conversation about them is good and necessary.
faissaloo 7y ago
I feel like this has alot of parallels with the incel movement
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  It's not a movement, but the social cause is probably the same...
- ThePadawan 7y ago
  I find it very disappointing that the definition of "incel" has now strayed incredibly from the actual literal abbreviation of "involuntary celibate", a rather clinical and descriptive term. In my eyes, it now encompasses anti-feminist politics and overlaps a lot with "redpills". What happened?
  - falcolas 7y ago
    Some people started looking for a cause of their “involuntary celibacy”, and chose the easy route - it can’t be me, so it must be you. Once the blame has been assigned in such a way, hatred is one easy step further.
    - westmeal 7y ago
      This. It's extremely common to project the blame on others as some sort of defense mechanism.
    - gubbrora 7y ago
      What do you want them to do? Better themselves - Are they not already trying? Accept they were born unattractive - then what, suicide?
      - mrguyorama 7y ago
        They could lower their standards and settle, as people have always done. It doesn't feel great but companionship can be found in people who are not "classically attractive", as much as it stings to not be an optimum mate
_bxg1 7y ago
> Feelings of failure and shame are common among hikikomori of all ages. It sounds to me like Japan's hyper-competitive business culture has chewed these people up and spit them back out (even though for some this happened while still in school), and now an entire population segment has paralyzing depression. Maybe that aspect of the country's culture will be forced to change for the sake of the economy.

90 points by Ultramanoid 7y ago

> The term was coined by psychiatrist Tamaki Saito in the late 1990s {Citation needed.} This seems unlikely given that "hikikomoru" is a compound verb which means to stay inside. If it's nice weather but someone stays at home all day, the hikikomoru verb is used for that; it (still) doesn't have automatic connotations of it being a way of life. The "komoru" part has various meanings (according to EDICT): "shut oneself in (e.g. one's room); to be confined in; to seclude oneself; to hide away; to stay inside (one's shell)" as well as "to be heavy with (e.g. smoke); to be stuffy; to be dense", plus others.

wiggler00m 7y ago
> The term was coined by psychiatrist Tamaki Saito in the late 1990s I interpret the term (n. hikikomori) differently to the verb (hikikomoru) from which it is derived. The term (hikikomori): individual instance of the social phenomenon of withdrawing from society and living in persistent isolation. The verb (hikikomoru): used in reference to a specific (non-persistent) act of staying indoors, without necessarily carrying the broader sociological meaning. Edit: as another comment points out, just staying indoors for a weekend, etc.
- Ultramanoid 7y ago
  The verb is used in normal daily conversation amongst us without the negative connotation ( as yet, given a general context ), as explained in a previous comment. It's basically just staying home when you could do otherwise. A normal reply to "what did you do last Sunday ?", etc.
- kazinator 7y ago
  > from which it is derived. "hikikomori" isn't a derivation, but a very basic inflection supported by all verbs, used all the time.
glandium 7y ago
According to https://medicalnote.jp/contents/150722-000005-CTDROY https://medicalnote.jp/contents/150722-000005-CTDROY the term was coined as a translation for "Social withdrawal".
m0llusk 7y ago
It is the usage that makes it work. Their child is a shut away is pretty clear similar usage not uncommon in America.
- kazinator 7y ago
  Is there a psychologist in America who is understood to have coined "shut in" or "shut away"?
  - Dylan16807 7y ago
    I couldn't name the specific person, but someone did. The words "shut in" didn't always have that meaning; etymonline says it happened around 1904. Without that you could be "shut in", but that just meant you were inside something with the door shut. It didn't have long-term or social implications.

AstralStorm 7y ago

People in quite a few countries I've been to are more and more reluctant to try and form a relationship with a stranger, especially one who does not seem outgoing. No idea about the root cause of this general mistrust. It's also easier to have substitute "network" relationships which are not complete. Abd it shows we're geared towards living in relatively small communities whee everyone knows everyone, but new forced mobility breaks that, and so do long work hours. (I believe the optimum size is somewhere around 10k and average 30h workweek, more bursty.) My personal solution to what almost happened to me was to fix the underlying problem with medication and start building from ground up. It took two lost years of my life (funny enough, during studies) and it's always a risk of relapse... The solution is unfortunately to get really creative in finding actual humanity around. It's rare but happens. It is actually quite hard for an adult to find an actual connection who isn't a spouse nowadays. You get to dig into weird social spaces like clubs (some are really niche too) and there are few guarantees. It's also for some reason harder for men because women still tend to build minimum social groups as a reflex ("coffee clatches" or rumour Mills) A lot of it is extremely superficial too which can be annoying.

techsin101 7y ago
Just add to that. Humans have always lived in tribes. Tribes internally were mostly socialistic but between tribes it was free trade. You could say a man few thousand years ago was more certain of his future and less stressed about career then today. You knew your village goes to farm those lands, have neighbours who will feed you when you can't, gather for stories every evening, ... Life was physically hard but otherwise easy and simple
- nradov 7y ago
  You're romanticizing it. Very few primitive people had it easy. Life was hard and just staying alive was often complex. Especially when an epidemic came through, or your village was caught in the middle of a war.
  - chachachoney 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

hrktb 7y ago

> “But the reality is that most hikikomori are people who can’t get back into society after straying off the path at some point,” he says. “They have been forced into withdrawal. It isn’t that they’re shutting themselves away — it’s more like they’re being forced to shut themselves away.” Articles need some narrative, and I get that it's also trying to put the spotlight on a different variant of a phenomenon. But I feel it's going too strong on the opposite direction. There must be a sizeable number of Hikikomori who cut themselves willingly from traditional society because they feel there's nothing there for them. Others, like quoted, are forced into it. I'm sure the reality of it is pretty mixed and varied, especially as the definition has been broaden to encompass people who don't get out of their homes out of pure necessity.

watwut 7y ago

Why is there such a fascination with hikikomori on this site?

mikekchar 7y ago
Because Japan Times says, "Oh, it's been days since we published an article on hikihomori" and publish another one. People who read Japan Times, then post it all over the place (not just HN). It gets voted up on HN for 2 reasons I think. First, there are a lot of people who use social media (like HN) as a crutch for dealing with their own mental health issues. Because they spend a lot of time trying to learn how to become healthy, they are interested in a lot of things like this (and it's not just hikikomori -- it's depression, and schizophrenia, etc, etc). Just look at all posts about various drugs and diet relating to mental health on HN. The other reason is because some people like to bash Japan (and increasingly Korea it seems to me). I don't really like the word "racist" here because it really doesn't fit, I think. It's more culturist. Some people really hate the culture and think it's wrong, so they promote stories that show it in a bad light. I would say equally prevalent are people who unduly love the culture and promote stories that show it in a good light. There are tons of overly optimistic stories about Japan on HN. Japan Times makes money from this second category (people who unduly hate Japanese culture and people who unduly love Japanese culture) and so post a ridiculous amount of trashy articles about these kinds of things. If you really want to understand Japanese culture well, I would advise avoiding it as much as possible. They are only in it to whip up emotion as far as I can tell.
- Ultramanoid 7y ago
  > Some people really hate the culture and think it's wrong, so they promote stories that show it in a bad light. I posted this story. I certainly don't hate my own home or culture. Rather I think one must have lived a very sheltered life in Japan not to have been affected by the hikikomori issue, by alcoholism, or both, which I'd argue are the two biggest problems today in Japanese society, bar none. Japan Times criticism is valid, somewhat. It's certainly not top notch journalism, very few articles are these days. But I can't quite go and post a study of hikikomori in Japanese. Not a single person I know in Japan has had no contact with, or not suffered themselves directly these issues. Any public conversation about them is good and necessary.

faissaloo 7y ago

I feel like this has alot of parallels with the incel movement

AstralStorm 7y ago
It's not a movement, but the social cause is probably the same...
ThePadawan 7y ago
I find it very disappointing that the definition of "incel" has now strayed incredibly from the actual literal abbreviation of "involuntary celibate", a rather clinical and descriptive term. In my eyes, it now encompasses anti-feminist politics and overlaps a lot with "redpills". What happened?
- falcolas 7y ago
  Some people started looking for a cause of their “involuntary celibacy”, and chose the easy route - it can’t be me, so it must be you. Once the blame has been assigned in such a way, hatred is one easy step further.
  - westmeal 7y ago
    This. It's extremely common to project the blame on others as some sort of defense mechanism.
  - gubbrora 7y ago
    What do you want them to do? Better themselves - Are they not already trying? Accept they were born unattractive - then what, suicide?
    - mrguyorama 7y ago
      They could lower their standards and settle, as people have always done. It doesn't feel great but companionship can be found in people who are not "classically attractive", as much as it stings to not be an optimum mate

_bxg1 7y ago

> Feelings of failure and shame are common among hikikomori of all ages. It sounds to me like Japan's hyper-competitive business culture has chewed these people up and spit them back out (even though for some this happened while still in school), and now an entire population segment has paralyzing depression. Maybe that aspect of the country's culture will be forced to change for the sake of the economy.