18 ms·

Every Vehicle Should Have an Electric Motor, Even If It Doesn’t Have a Plug

75 points by JeffL 7y ago

jedberg 7y ago
I drove a Tesla once for a day, and ever since, I've been longing for a car with that much bottom end torque. The moment Honda releases a hybrid or all-electric Odyssey I will throw money at them. Or if my kids grow out of their car seats before then, I'll just get whatever the best all electric sedan is at that point.
- isoprophlex 7y ago
  Even an Opel Ampera (a Volt in the USA, I think) is super fun to drive, even though the car itself is somewhat boring I used to lament the impending loss of manual transmission that comes with electrifying cars. But the torque more than makes up for that.
- bobsil1 7y ago
  Tesla Model Y not big enough?
  - jedberg 7y ago
    It's even smaller than the X, and while that was almost big enough, it was a terrible experience for the passengers. I saved $100K and got more amenities by choosing the Odyssey over the Model X.
- rodgerd 7y ago
  The closest I can see at the moment is the 7 seater Prius v/Prius + (depending on market); sadly the Previa hybrid seems to be in very limited distribution.
problems 7y ago
Calling a 1.5L Prius engine "expensive" is a bit of a stretch, you can buy a lightly used engine for ~$500. Compare with say Tesla where a single motor runs you over $3000 and they call it "cheap".
- londons_explore 7y ago
  I don't think 2nd hard parts prices are at all representative of the new cost the manufacturer pays.
Creationer 7y ago
The rise of EVs also presents the opportunity for generally lighter, smaller, cheaper vehicles. Already they are very popular in China: https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-electric-cars/ https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-el... What would a Tesla Model 3 look like if it had half the range, no frunk, and much lower performance? (ie. limited to 120km/h) How light, cheap, and small could we take it without utterly abandoning safety? Basically, the kind of vehicle designed just for inner-city commutes and picking up goods. If these vehicles became more common we would see a 'peace dividend' in the car safety wars - the other vehicles on the road would be lighter, so crashes would be less dangerous (maybe combined with automatic crash avoidance as well) and breaking times shorter, so crumple zones and other big heavy features could be reduced.
- nradov 7y ago
  Neighborhood electric vehicles are already allowed on lower speed US roads and are fairly popular in some areas. But passive collision safety will never be very good. Assuming equivalent materials, a larger heavier vehicle will always be safer due to greater mass and thicker crumple zones.
  - potatochup 7y ago
    *Safer for occupants only. More dangerous for everyone else on the road.
    - balfirevic 7y ago
      Larger crumple zones on any vehicle in collision will make that collision safer for all vehicles involved. The point about the mass stands, though.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Well, now you're stuck in this sort of tragedy-of-the-commons situation where it's better for everyone individually to have bigger cars but worse for everyone as a group.
bsder 7y ago
And, yet, GM just quit producing the Volt. The economics apparently don't support hybrid for very long.
- nradov 7y ago
  More like people don't want cramped penalty box sedans. If GM had built the Voltec drivetrain into a more practical crossover SUV it would have sold better.
  - serpi 7y ago
    Strangely I find the Volt spacious and quite wide and long. Lowering the seats it can fit in a huge amount of cargo and the trunk is quite large to begin with. It also consumes just about the same in gas as a Prius even when not charged which just shows Toyota does not know what the fuck they are doing.
    - rladd 7y ago
      Not even close. The Volt is 42 MPG and the Prius Prime, which is the competitor to the Volt, is 54 MPG. https://www.hybridcars.com/what-make-more-sense-chevrolet-volt-or-toyota-prius-prime/ https://www.hybridcars.com/what-make-more-sense-chevrolet-vo... (among other sources).
      - whenchamenia 7y ago
        Wow, is that all? Half my 2000 qnd earlier cars got/get that kind of MPG, as does my ICE only commuter. What is the reason for such poor figures?
        bsder 7y ago
        Wind drag goes as something like the 4th? power of velocity--so highway speeds are a function of how aerodynamic you are (and everybody pretty much is) and how efficiently you convert stored energy to wheel torque (and at highway speeds at 2000-3000 RPM ICE is pretty much at max efficiency). Your ICE commuter is burning lots more gas than any electric/hybrid if you are stuck in traffic at low speed for any amount of time.
jac_no_k 7y ago
I test drove the Nissan Serena e-power (series hybrid mini-van) and having all the torque available is a killer feature. It won't win any high speed medals but to be able to get up to 50kph (30mph) with no drama is useful. Combines the torque happy electric car with the range capabilities and infrastructure support of ICE. You see this electric motor pattern in a variety of cars. The current gen Acura NSX has the front wheels driven by the electric motors, rears driven by an ICE engine. The Mitsubishi Outlander comes in a PHEV version, with about 50km of electric only range, switching over to ICE as needed. While I ended up with the Nissan Leaf (battery electric vehicle, the plug in kind), currently about one year of owner ship, I do miss for long distance, at speed, travel of gasoline cars.
- ptah 7y ago
  what is nissan leaf top speed over long distance?
  - FooHentai 7y ago
    160KM/h (100MPH in freedom dollars) on the flat.
    - ptah 7y ago
      160 is pretty good
natch 7y ago
Unfortunately hybrids still use gas. All-electric charging speeds are quite good now and getting better, and any numbers quoted today need to be rechecked a few months from now, especially with Teslas and the Supercharger v3 upgrades rolling out. It’s simply irresponsible to continue pushing solutions that perpetuate our carbon based transportation system while the grid is steadily becoming more and more green. Cost comparisons of vehicles should take total cost of ownership into account, not just the sticker price which can be offset by savings in other aspects of usage.
- bit_logic 7y ago
  When considered from a purely carbon reduction POV, long range EV like Tesla are actually worse than short range EV+ICE like Volt, Prius Prime, etc. Some reasons: * A PHEV with good EV range (such as 40+miles) will cover most commutes. Also most car trips are short range (such as going to the grocery stors). These could all be pure EV miles. * There is limited worldwide capacity for battery production and battery price is still high. The amount of batteries in a single Tesla could be used for 10 PHEV cars. Perfect is the enemy of good. If a PHEV can get most of its miles as EV and an occasional trip using ICE, the effect on carbon reduction is almost as good as a pure EV with much fewer battery costs. Also the weaknesses of batteries (such as long charge time compared to filling a gas tank) don't matter for a PHEV. And it's a great fit for the current state of EV charging infrastructure. A level 1 charger (regular 120 volt plug) can charge a typical PHEV car from empty to full overnight. It would be much simpler and less costly to get regular 120 volt plugs installed into all parking spots in an apartment compared to trying to get level 2 (240volt) plugs.
  - Scoundreller 7y ago
    Whats so hard about 240v? Or are 15 amp 240v circuits not a thing? Other than the fact that newer residential buildings are sometimes 208v in N. America.
  - Gravityloss 7y ago
    Yes. Looking at the whole market for the next 5 years, plugin hybrids could make a huge emissions reduction.
zdragnar 7y ago
I dream of a hybrid or all-electric pickup truck. The geography+climate around my house, in combination with the types of hobby work I do (frequent hauling of logs and stone) make owning anything smaller than a crossover SUV foolish, and even those won't be able to get out of the driveway some days in winter. In short, a 4 wheel drive + good ground clearance is a must, and hauling capacity is a great bonus. Alas, new pickup trucks that are worth owning for my needs are typically in the $45-60k+ range, and I don't have high hopes that hybrid or all-electric will be kind to the sticker price either.
- geff82 7y ago
  While I think it is good that you long for a (part)electric solution, you might be one of the few people who, in 2019, are simply served best with an ICE car. If all the hundred of millions who have their own house (and thus: charging possibility) and drive on regular roads (mostly just to work and the super market) would buy and electric car/a PHEV, the world would be much nicer and leave the petrol to those applications where we have to yet found a good technical and affordable solution (like your needs). We are currently in the situation to buy two new cars. The first family hauler has to be petrol (a compact 7 seater, no viable PHEV/electric solution exists yet that is also affordable), but the second car will be the updated Hyundai Ioniq Electric, and this car will probably do 80% of the actual rides. One has to be pragmatic.
- asteli 7y ago
  There's a company called Rivian that's working on an electric pickup. After doing engine work and chasing leaks on my older Tacoma, I admit I've entertained the thought of swapping in a Tesla powertrain. I think it's a great idea, honestly. No low hanging prop shaft or exhaust to limit your breakover height, loads of torque. You'd also get the benefit of a super tight traction control feedback loop and independent power to every wheel, which would be just magic in icy or muddy conditions.
- taylorfinley 7y ago
  My dream vehicle is the Bollinger B-1, an electric off-road utilitarian truck/suv. You can open the front and back tailgates and stab lumber or a telephone pole right through the whole vehicle. Wish I had the funds.
UglycupRawky 7y ago
This would have been great if the automakers got into this seriously about 20 to 10 years ago. Now whether or not they do this, they have to make serious effort to get to BEVs
lazyjones 7y ago
The extra weight of a battery and electric drive train means at least part of the fuel efficiency is compensated, hybrids typically weigh 200 Kg more than their ICE counterparts. There's another measure that would have saved everyone a lot of money and emissions: better aerodynamics. Car makers have been building terrible designs for decades because gasoline was cheap, but we know they could do much better. A car with good aerodynamics (like the Prius by the way, or the Hyundai Ioniq) saves enough fuel to not need a hybrid drive train.
- kennywinker 7y ago
  At what speeds? I find it hard to believe aerodynamics would make that much of a difference for your average rush-hour commute, but maybe that’s my urban bias showing.
  - lazyjones 7y ago
    I'm not sure my simplified math is valid, but for example the F-150 frame with Cd = 0.36 and 2.9m² frontal area vs. the Prius with Cd = 0.25 and 2.17m² frontal area would use theoretical ~55 Wh/Km more at constant 80 Km/h (~50 mph) just due to air resistance (excluding ground friction etc.). Assuming a total efficiency of 20% of a gasoline engine and 1 litre of gasoline containing 8.8 KWh of energy, this means approx. 3 litres per 100 Km more gasoline, just due to aerodynamics (not weight etc.). For a less extreme comparison, the (2006) Mini Cooper S vs. the Prius I get 13.45 Wh/Km difference, meaning 0.7 litres per 100 Km (at constant 80 Km/h, only due to air resistance). Perhaps one day it'll be possible to attach the self-driving car to the back of the car in front on boring commutes to get rid of this factor. ;-)
- xallace 7y ago
  Obvious improvements for traffic in terms of aerodynamics: * Get rid of side mirrors (legislation is the biggest challenge here) * Adaptive body elements * Less powered cars (less powered >> less need for removing the heat >> better aerodynamics) * disincentivize SUVs
  - 7y ago
aivisol 7y ago
Is it common to refer gas tank as "reservoir" in English as the articles diagrams from Wikipedia show?
- asteli 7y ago
  It's an understood, but uncommon word choice. "Fuel tank" and "gas tank" are the most common in American English.
jhoechtl 7y ago
It's a shame to the author of the article or the poster that so many people comment without having actually read the article, based on the replies. The article is not about EV in general, not about Tesla in particular. It's about series hybrids which are the most economic way to design an EV, combining the capability of short time power spikes and long range. Now my contribution to the article is that large mining vehicles have used this principle since quite some time. The largest slag trucks in the world are all operating according to this principle so it's not that new. Would love to check out a car operating to that principle!

75 points by JeffL 7y ago

I drove a Tesla once for a day, and ever since, I've been longing for a car with that much bottom end torque. The moment Honda releases a hybrid or all-electric Odyssey I will throw money at them. Or if my kids grow out of their car seats before then, I'll just get whatever the best all electric sedan is at that point.

isoprophlex 7y ago
Even an Opel Ampera (a Volt in the USA, I think) is super fun to drive, even though the car itself is somewhat boring I used to lament the impending loss of manual transmission that comes with electrifying cars. But the torque more than makes up for that.
bobsil1 7y ago
Tesla Model Y not big enough?
- jedberg 7y ago
  It's even smaller than the X, and while that was almost big enough, it was a terrible experience for the passengers. I saved $100K and got more amenities by choosing the Odyssey over the Model X.
rodgerd 7y ago
The closest I can see at the moment is the 7 seater Prius v/Prius + (depending on market); sadly the Previa hybrid seems to be in very limited distribution.

problems 7y ago

Calling a 1.5L Prius engine "expensive" is a bit of a stretch, you can buy a lightly used engine for ~$500. Compare with say Tesla where a single motor runs you over $3000 and they call it "cheap".

londons_explore 7y ago
I don't think 2nd hard parts prices are at all representative of the new cost the manufacturer pays.

Creationer 7y ago

The rise of EVs also presents the opportunity for generally lighter, smaller, cheaper vehicles. Already they are very popular in China: https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-electric-cars/ https://insideevs.com/news/340006/big-in-china-cheap-tiny-el... What would a Tesla Model 3 look like if it had half the range, no frunk, and much lower performance? (ie. limited to 120km/h) How light, cheap, and small could we take it without utterly abandoning safety? Basically, the kind of vehicle designed just for inner-city commutes and picking up goods. If these vehicles became more common we would see a 'peace dividend' in the car safety wars - the other vehicles on the road would be lighter, so crashes would be less dangerous (maybe combined with automatic crash avoidance as well) and breaking times shorter, so crumple zones and other big heavy features could be reduced.

nradov 7y ago
Neighborhood electric vehicles are already allowed on lower speed US roads and are fairly popular in some areas. But passive collision safety will never be very good. Assuming equivalent materials, a larger heavier vehicle will always be safer due to greater mass and thicker crumple zones.
- potatochup 7y ago
  *Safer for occupants only. More dangerous for everyone else on the road.
  - balfirevic 7y ago
    Larger crumple zones on any vehicle in collision will make that collision safer for all vehicles involved. The point about the mass stands, though.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Well, now you're stuck in this sort of tragedy-of-the-commons situation where it's better for everyone individually to have bigger cars but worse for everyone as a group.

bsder 7y ago

And, yet, GM just quit producing the Volt. The economics apparently don't support hybrid for very long.

nradov 7y ago
More like people don't want cramped penalty box sedans. If GM had built the Voltec drivetrain into a more practical crossover SUV it would have sold better.
- serpi 7y ago
  Strangely I find the Volt spacious and quite wide and long. Lowering the seats it can fit in a huge amount of cargo and the trunk is quite large to begin with. It also consumes just about the same in gas as a Prius even when not charged which just shows Toyota does not know what the fuck they are doing.
  - rladd 7y ago
    Not even close. The Volt is 42 MPG and the Prius Prime, which is the competitor to the Volt, is 54 MPG. https://www.hybridcars.com/what-make-more-sense-chevrolet-volt-or-toyota-prius-prime/ https://www.hybridcars.com/what-make-more-sense-chevrolet-vo... (among other sources).
    - whenchamenia 7y ago
      Wow, is that all? Half my 2000 qnd earlier cars got/get that kind of MPG, as does my ICE only commuter. What is the reason for such poor figures?
      - bsder 7y ago
        Wind drag goes as something like the 4th? power of velocity--so highway speeds are a function of how aerodynamic you are (and everybody pretty much is) and how efficiently you convert stored energy to wheel torque (and at highway speeds at 2000-3000 RPM ICE is pretty much at max efficiency). Your ICE commuter is burning lots more gas than any electric/hybrid if you are stuck in traffic at low speed for any amount of time.

jac_no_k 7y ago

I test drove the Nissan Serena e-power (series hybrid mini-van) and having all the torque available is a killer feature. It won't win any high speed medals but to be able to get up to 50kph (30mph) with no drama is useful. Combines the torque happy electric car with the range capabilities and infrastructure support of ICE. You see this electric motor pattern in a variety of cars. The current gen Acura NSX has the front wheels driven by the electric motors, rears driven by an ICE engine. The Mitsubishi Outlander comes in a PHEV version, with about 50km of electric only range, switching over to ICE as needed. While I ended up with the Nissan Leaf (battery electric vehicle, the plug in kind), currently about one year of owner ship, I do miss for long distance, at speed, travel of gasoline cars.

ptah 7y ago
what is nissan leaf top speed over long distance?
- FooHentai 7y ago
  160KM/h (100MPH in freedom dollars) on the flat.
  - ptah 7y ago
    160 is pretty good

natch 7y ago

Unfortunately hybrids still use gas. All-electric charging speeds are quite good now and getting better, and any numbers quoted today need to be rechecked a few months from now, especially with Teslas and the Supercharger v3 upgrades rolling out. It’s simply irresponsible to continue pushing solutions that perpetuate our carbon based transportation system while the grid is steadily becoming more and more green. Cost comparisons of vehicles should take total cost of ownership into account, not just the sticker price which can be offset by savings in other aspects of usage.

bit_logic 7y ago
When considered from a purely carbon reduction POV, long range EV like Tesla are actually worse than short range EV+ICE like Volt, Prius Prime, etc. Some reasons: * A PHEV with good EV range (such as 40+miles) will cover most commutes. Also most car trips are short range (such as going to the grocery stors). These could all be pure EV miles. * There is limited worldwide capacity for battery production and battery price is still high. The amount of batteries in a single Tesla could be used for 10 PHEV cars. Perfect is the enemy of good. If a PHEV can get most of its miles as EV and an occasional trip using ICE, the effect on carbon reduction is almost as good as a pure EV with much fewer battery costs. Also the weaknesses of batteries (such as long charge time compared to filling a gas tank) don't matter for a PHEV. And it's a great fit for the current state of EV charging infrastructure. A level 1 charger (regular 120 volt plug) can charge a typical PHEV car from empty to full overnight. It would be much simpler and less costly to get regular 120 volt plugs installed into all parking spots in an apartment compared to trying to get level 2 (240volt) plugs.
- Scoundreller 7y ago
  Whats so hard about 240v? Or are 15 amp 240v circuits not a thing? Other than the fact that newer residential buildings are sometimes 208v in N. America.
- Gravityloss 7y ago
  Yes. Looking at the whole market for the next 5 years, plugin hybrids could make a huge emissions reduction.

zdragnar 7y ago

I dream of a hybrid or all-electric pickup truck. The geography+climate around my house, in combination with the types of hobby work I do (frequent hauling of logs and stone) make owning anything smaller than a crossover SUV foolish, and even those won't be able to get out of the driveway some days in winter. In short, a 4 wheel drive + good ground clearance is a must, and hauling capacity is a great bonus. Alas, new pickup trucks that are worth owning for my needs are typically in the $45-60k+ range, and I don't have high hopes that hybrid or all-electric will be kind to the sticker price either.

geff82 7y ago
While I think it is good that you long for a (part)electric solution, you might be one of the few people who, in 2019, are simply served best with an ICE car. If all the hundred of millions who have their own house (and thus: charging possibility) and drive on regular roads (mostly just to work and the super market) would buy and electric car/a PHEV, the world would be much nicer and leave the petrol to those applications where we have to yet found a good technical and affordable solution (like your needs). We are currently in the situation to buy two new cars. The first family hauler has to be petrol (a compact 7 seater, no viable PHEV/electric solution exists yet that is also affordable), but the second car will be the updated Hyundai Ioniq Electric, and this car will probably do 80% of the actual rides. One has to be pragmatic.
asteli 7y ago
There's a company called Rivian that's working on an electric pickup. After doing engine work and chasing leaks on my older Tacoma, I admit I've entertained the thought of swapping in a Tesla powertrain. I think it's a great idea, honestly. No low hanging prop shaft or exhaust to limit your breakover height, loads of torque. You'd also get the benefit of a super tight traction control feedback loop and independent power to every wheel, which would be just magic in icy or muddy conditions.
taylorfinley 7y ago
My dream vehicle is the Bollinger B-1, an electric off-road utilitarian truck/suv. You can open the front and back tailgates and stab lumber or a telephone pole right through the whole vehicle. Wish I had the funds.

UglycupRawky 7y ago

This would have been great if the automakers got into this seriously about 20 to 10 years ago. Now whether or not they do this, they have to make serious effort to get to BEVs

lazyjones 7y ago

The extra weight of a battery and electric drive train means at least part of the fuel efficiency is compensated, hybrids typically weigh 200 Kg more than their ICE counterparts. There's another measure that would have saved everyone a lot of money and emissions: better aerodynamics. Car makers have been building terrible designs for decades because gasoline was cheap, but we know they could do much better. A car with good aerodynamics (like the Prius by the way, or the Hyundai Ioniq) saves enough fuel to not need a hybrid drive train.

kennywinker 7y ago
At what speeds? I find it hard to believe aerodynamics would make that much of a difference for your average rush-hour commute, but maybe that’s my urban bias showing.
- lazyjones 7y ago
  I'm not sure my simplified math is valid, but for example the F-150 frame with Cd = 0.36 and 2.9m² frontal area vs. the Prius with Cd = 0.25 and 2.17m² frontal area would use theoretical ~55 Wh/Km more at constant 80 Km/h (~50 mph) just due to air resistance (excluding ground friction etc.). Assuming a total efficiency of 20% of a gasoline engine and 1 litre of gasoline containing 8.8 KWh of energy, this means approx. 3 litres per 100 Km more gasoline, just due to aerodynamics (not weight etc.). For a less extreme comparison, the (2006) Mini Cooper S vs. the Prius I get 13.45 Wh/Km difference, meaning 0.7 litres per 100 Km (at constant 80 Km/h, only due to air resistance). Perhaps one day it'll be possible to attach the self-driving car to the back of the car in front on boring commutes to get rid of this factor. ;-)
xallace 7y ago
Obvious improvements for traffic in terms of aerodynamics: * Get rid of side mirrors (legislation is the biggest challenge here) * Adaptive body elements * Less powered cars (less powered >> less need for removing the heat >> better aerodynamics) * disincentivize SUVs
- 7y ago

aivisol 7y ago

Is it common to refer gas tank as "reservoir" in English as the articles diagrams from Wikipedia show?

asteli 7y ago
It's an understood, but uncommon word choice. "Fuel tank" and "gas tank" are the most common in American English.

jhoechtl 7y ago

It's a shame to the author of the article or the poster that so many people comment without having actually read the article, based on the replies. The article is not about EV in general, not about Tesla in particular. It's about series hybrids which are the most economic way to design an EV, combining the capability of short time power spikes and long range. Now my contribution to the article is that large mining vehicles have used this principle since quite some time. The largest slag trucks in the world are all operating according to this principle so it's not that new. Would love to check out a car operating to that principle!