26 ms·
‘If I disappear’: Chinese students make farewell messages amid crackdowns
- repolfx 7y agoIt's a fascinating article. What can we make of students who look at China's history, and conclude the answer is more communism rather than less? Are they unaware of the history of other communist regimes, unaware that the only thing that sets China apart from everywhere else Marxism was tried is that they went much further with getting economic growth back via free market reforms? What does Qiu Zhanxuan think would be different if "real Marxism" and "not dog meat passed off as lamb" were to be implemented in China? Is he totally unaware of how China was under Mao? It's easy to believe his understanding of Chinese history is garbled beyond recognition, but obviously he understands some of it at least. It's of course also interesting that this is happening at the most 'elite' university in the Chinese system. In England during the cold war, the intelligence agencies were repeatedly penetrated by Soviet moles - something that was possible because these agencies only recruited from Oxford and Cambridge, both hotbeds of communist sympathy. It seems that the most selective universities in any society end up breeding communist students. My guess is it's because communist societies tend to be run by academics, and implicitly or explicitly are based on the belief that democratic societies are bad because the academic elite don't get to make decisions alone.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- humanrebar 7y agoI think there's a bias among the academically superlative to think failures of planning can be solved with better planning. Maybe humility and pragmatism (as opposed to idealism) aren't easy to learn on the way to an elite education.
- iguy 7y agoThis is true, and such humility/pragmatism is pretty much the core idea of one kind of conservatism. But I'm also not sure how much we should read these people's labelling of themselves as Marxists as indicating an opinion on the economic planning/freedom scale. Maybe the right analogy is something like Jesuits objecting to how Spain was abusing/enslaving native americans. Being Christian was an important part of how everyone involved thought about themselves, and such criticisms would inevitably have been phrased in christian terminology, that was the shared language of both power and protest. But that's not what the message was. > Peking University’s young Marxists drew the government’s ire after they campaigned for workers’ rights and openly criticized social inequality and corruption in China.
- crispyambulance 7y agoI think you should, instead, listen to what the students are actually trying to say rather than react superficially on the fact that they label themselves as "communist." When a government, regardless of political orientation, "disappears people" that's a sign that something is rotten to the core.
- 781 7y agoIt's interesting to note that the more "capitalist" a country is, the less likely is for it's citizens to "disappear"
- zzzcpan 7y agoYou probably mean the more "democratic" a county is. Democracies require cover stories for anything. You don't just disappear, you commit suicide or get thrown in prison on rape charges, possession of drugs, child porn, etc. But all the nasty things dictatorships do are still there.
- 781 7y agoFair enough. Can you point out some groups of people who "got suicided/..." in France/US/UK in recent years because of their political views? More interestingly, while some have voted communism in, nobody seems able to vote communism out, without serious military involvement. I wonder why...
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- lixtra 7y agoThis is kind of a trick question because only some will believe it’s a cover story while others believe it’s true. President Trump is actually a good example that everyone could agree on: considering the amount of dirt thrown at him it a clear sign of system failure because either: - he’s still not impeached or - his aides go down by presumably made up cover stories
- legatus 7y agoI don't usually like to discuss these topics, but I want to point out a few things. First of all, communism and in general left-wing politics are viewed with a significant bias in the western world, even more in the US. While there have been many societies claiming to be socialist, none would actually qualify from a political theory perspective (it was something more akin to propaganda, e.g. look, we achieved socialism!). Even then, it's worth noting that those societies developed in an environment of extreme hostility from other nations, almost every time during a period of extreme difficulty (e.g. a civil war, right after a long and terrible conflict etc). Coming back to current China, I think Qiu's conclusion can actually make sense if we remove the bias that is normally present in western circles, especially since China's current system, classified by some (especially those that want to make use of the fear of radical left-wing policies) as communism, can also be classified as state capitalism. I don't really think that workers have much power in modern China (this article provides several examples), and I don't see how that could lead you to argue that China needs less communism (as Qiu intends it, that is, characterized by more workers power and less inequality). The only thing I can agree with you about is that Marxist societies, based on a vanguard party with control over everything and everyone, should (one would hope) be now left behind. P.S. your claim that communist societies tend to be run by academics doesn't really hold much water - if you're interested in the russian revolution, consider reading Sheila Fitzpatrick's "The Russian Revolution" as an excellent introduction.
- Krasnol 7y ago> First of all, communism and in general left-wing politics are viewed with a significant bias in the western world, even more in the US. They are not being viewed more favorable in former East Block countries either. So what what is left there? > While there have been many societies claiming to be socialist, none would actually qualify from a political theory perspective (it was something more akin to propaganda, e.g. look, we achieved socialism!). Nonetheless those are the societies that are being cherished by the remaining fans of Socialism in the West. Especially in countries like Germany where there is a generation of kids who hear only the good things (everybody had a job!) about the DDR making it look like some kind of paradise (it actually was one in the East Block since everybody else was working to make the DDR look like one). > Even then, it's worth noting that those societies developed in an environment of extreme hostility from other nations Oh please. You can say that about every society. It depends on how much you reach backwards or how much you are ready to ignore. Just like we see the growing ignorance of the evil that was fascism, there will come a time where a growing ignorance of state socialism will become mainstream and I'm afraid of that. I fled this madness once already and since the fans of state socialism today are not even ready to come up with new solutions to the issues this idealism had, there won't be new ideas later.
- 781 7y ago> because these agencies only recruited from Oxford and Cambridge Nothing has changed. This year, Oxbridge professors were writing articles in The Guardian asking people to stop saying Venezuela failed because of "socialism", and instead to look at the other thriving South America socialist countries as examples that socialism is amazing.
- Torwald 7y agoInstead of boring people with history – I say this as a history buff - we can just point out the ethical fallacies of communism. Most, most, most people are actually moral. You just have to explain stuff once in a while.
- JDiculous 7y agoMost people erroneously associate "communism" with the regimes of Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong. These were not communist. They were totalitarian and communist only in name. These activists simply recognize that capitalism is not working for everyone, like the factory workers working those 12-hour shifts under awful working conditions getting paid peanuts, and want to give them more representation and make things more fair. On this higher level I completely sympathize with them, though I have no knowledge of the details of what specifically they are advocating.
- gambiting 7y agoI increasingly feel that this is what it must have been like with the rise of Nazi Germany - I have frequently asked myself "how come people still supported Germany as it was heading in that direction? Why didn't other countries oppose it harder?". Well, I think I know how now - because it's invisible from the outside. I'm not saying that China wants to attack its neighbours and take over the world - but fuck, there's estimated to be over a million people in "reeducation" camps in China. The survailance apparatus judges you if you are being a "good" citizen with harsh consequences for doing anything that the party doesn't approve of. Censorship is widespread. And yet, people don't seem to have hugely negative feelings towards China. Most people I know wouldn't even object to going there on holiday. I honestly feel that in 20-30 years we're going to look back and say "how did we not see this? Or how did we ignore this?".
- frozenport 7y agoI think everybody knows what's going on.
- sametmax 7y agoIt's not invisible. We know. But we don't feel a sufficient motivation to do something about it.
- EGreg 7y agoCan you share videos that prove all this stuff? The more people shown in the re education camps, the better. Seriously, please post 10-20 links to videos so we can share them! Reports are going to have people claiming one thing and others denying that thing. This is a really serious human rights concern involving MILLIONS of people. It has been going on starting with Falun Gong since 2000 or earlier, then Uyghurs, Tibetans etc. It’s the word of the Chinese government vs all those groups. So it’s pretty clear this stuff is happening, but only because so many disparate groups are claiming this. But there is nothing like VIDEO to make clear what exactly is happening. We need to have these videos in order to share them. Same as Tienemen Square videos.
- 7y ago
- yorwba 7y agoThe article mentions the students using GitHub to evade censorship. I think that might refer to https://terminus2049.github.io/ https://terminus2049.github.io/ Terminus 端点星计划，是在 GitHub 开放平台搭建的一个站点，以去中心化的方式备份微信、微博等平台被删文章。 Terminus is a site set up on GitHub's open platform to back up posts deleted from WeChat, Weibo and other platforms by means of decentralization.
- rwmj 7y agoThat's an odd definition of decentralization.
- yorwba 7y agoAnyone with a copy of the repo can set up a mirror, so although they are using GitHub's centralized publishing platform, they are not dependent on it.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- jtms 7y agoGit is one of the most widely used distributed protocols on the internet. GitHub is just one node on the graph... seems like a decent use/definition to me.
- sdinsn 7y agoDistributed is not the same as decentralized. GitHub is centralized and distributed.
- arshbot 7y agoI'm not sure if GitHub fits the definition of distributed (unless you're talking about their load balancing setup, in which case - is that relevant?), but git is designed to be a decentralized store of information (specifically code, but not stricty) and optionally distributed.
- tus87 7y agoSort of like conservatives on social media in America.
- andrepd 7y agoYes, it's absolutely the same thing. Receiving criticism online and being oppressed by a totalitarian regime. What a mind-bogglingly clueless and disrespectful thing to say.
- tus87 7y agoErr...conservatives are the ones doing the criticizing and getting disappeared for it. Nice try though.
- jacksproit 7y agoThey're being abducted by the state? I don't think that you're being very objective.
- geggam 7y agoThings like this are always interesting to me. It's interesting that people who were subject to this sort of treatment created the constitution limiting the US govt. It's interesting that people who aren't subject to this sort of treatment are trying to change the constitution and give the govt more power. It's interesting to me that democide is the number 1 cause of death in the 20th century and everyone ignores that fact. Its also interesting to me that the internet allows people to communicate and learn how much all govts lie. Change is coming as govts try to control the internet and the communication people have with each other.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- 50656E6973 7y ago>It's interesting to me that democide is the number 1 cause of death in the 20th century and everyone ignores that fact. It's estimated to be the number one cause of non-natural deaths
- legatus 7y agoI know democide has been mostly coined by Rummel. Do you by chance refer to him? If so, could I ask for your sources? I know that Rummel's data has been heavily criticized by many historians. His work is usually about taking the largest estimate, which is fruitful if you want big titles (à la Black Book of X), but unfruitful if you are interested in the truth.
- 50656E6973 7y ago>unfruitful if you are interested in the truth. Do you really think its possible to find "the truth" of numbers when it comes to things like democide?
- legatus 7y agoNo, no historian thinks he will find the definitive truth. My point is that there are valid historians (I only know about a few fields, but you can see which historians are valid by how much their peers respect their work) that at least try to get as close to the the probable number of, in this case, deaths. One example: taking a look at Rummel's data on the Soviet Union, he reports 60 million deaths 1917-1987, which is laughable (he even claimed that was a low estimate!). That's the number reported by Solzhenitsyn, which is not considered a reliable source in contemporary Sovietology (probably not a source at all). Here is a relevant thread on r/AskHistorians if you're interested: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3v5u2t/are_rj_rummels_death_toll_estimates_on_democides/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3v5u2t/are_r...
- soulofmischief 7y ago> "But to handle them with force seems a bit low. Why not take the high road?" How removed from society can you be to view disappearing, humilating and torturing citizens as "a bit low"? Have we forgotten the purpose of a government?
- jjoonathan 7y agoThat person speaks from within the party. If he speaks less carefully, they will simply eject and ignore him, and then the party wouldn't even have someone in their circle calling these actions "a bit low." > Qiu Shike, a socialist writer and Xi supporter who is influential within some elite Communist Party circles, said carefully
- AbitofAsum 7y agoOh interesting way to put it. Needing to avoid ejection from social circles must be a common motivator for most people. Now I am wondering how to tell if someone is masking a stronger feeling or not
- maconic 7y agoBeing banished from social circles is certainly one reason, but in this case I think it's fear of life or liberty by an authoritarian regime that has complete discretion to do so if you come across as speaking out against them. If you saw the recent HBO series on Cheronybl, you can see the pains with which one person is trying to relay the seriousness of the situation without making himself a target, opposition figure, enemy of the state, etc. I also remember hearing that Sadam Hussein underestimated how easily Iraq could be toppled in case of invasion because his military generals were too scared to speak truth.
- conanbatt 7y agoI have two ideas on this regard: The first is that Asian culture (including Japan, Korea) is profoundly dogmatic and hierarchical. They have a completely different moral-alignment with being obedient. The second is that over time, you can really achive the social transformation spouted by authoritarian governments. Russia was communist for 90 years. North korea approaching 70 years. After several generations what you have is the only thing that people know. As a westerner, I find it truly amazing that these systems survive at all.
- Manjuuu 7y agoSometimes, like when we are near a certain anniversary, I wonder how much this order of things will endure, i doubt that economic growth will come fast enough for everyone. Who knows.
- conanbatt 7y agoCan you have economic prosperity without political liberty? China has been showing us that it can so far.
- _bxg1 7y agoHow can the rest of the world help, before this fiery resistance is extinguished for good?
- horyzen 7y agoOther post[0] has mentioned Terminus Project if you know Chinese. Or if you don't know Chinese, backing an mirror might probably help. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20014593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20014593
- conanbatt 7y ago1) Trade War 2) Real War
- html5web 7y agoTrade and Real War can hurt people as well!
- conanbatt 7y agoI think there is a deep naivete in believing you can turn situations like NK or china with politics, diplomacy and no dead bodies. Lets not forget what stopped nazism!
- yourbandsucks 7y agoHow many dead bodies are you asking for, exactly? 100M? We've all got strong feelings about politics, but maybe Americans in particular ought to be a little less cavalier about dead foreigners in the name of American idealism.
- conanbatt 7y agoI'm not asking for anything, I'm stating that if you want china to not do things like the article or not have internment camps you have to go to war with them.
- ggg2 7y agoin this thread: bunch of white privileged people debating how wrong china is by using the state machine to smash minorities, while both doing nothing concrete and never once have been in a protest in their own country when the fallacy of war on drugs was used to smash afro Americans with mass incarcerations for "crimes" that everybody here "committed" safely within the campus walls of elite colleges. not defending China, obviously, but have to call out the absurdity!
- jdefr89 7y agoThere is a paywall? Why is this even on front page? I am on phone, maybe I’m missing something.
- mmwelt 7y agoWell, it doesn't seem to like Privacy Badger. So here's the archive.is version: http://archive.is/o8uvi http://archive.is/o8uvi
- html5web 7y agoChinese people must unite now! China has started putting Uyghur Muslims into camps, censoring internet etc. violating human rights. If you do not have your voice today your future will be doomed.
- RealityNow 7y agoThis is extremely disturbing, not to mention so ironic that a self-proclaimed "communist" regime is torturing and kidnapping communist activists. We can debate Marxism here in the comments, but the fact is that nobody regardless of their political stance should have to worry about being kidnapped or tortured by their government. At that point your government is effectively a gang, of no higher moral ground than a bunch of thugs with guns. Until China fixes their government, they will never be taken seriously on the same level of other "first world" countries. Unless people passively watch Peking University students (statistically harder to get into than Harvard) get kidnapped by their government and do nothing about it. I wonder what Chinese people think about the odds of any of this improving.
- scilro 7y agoYou're correct, but only because we live in the core of this empire. The story is different for folks who live in its periphery
- conanbatt 7y ago> Until China fixes their government, they will never be taken seriously on the same level of other "first world" countries. I think russia has been taken seriously for a century now, with not better track record. What makes your country be taken seriously is your military strength, which is your capacity to flip-off any other country that tries to take political advantage over you. > I wonder what Chinese people think about the odds of any of this improving. What I think is that the vast majority of chinese don't care about this topic at all, and would rather not think about it. Remember, most of them dont know about Tiananmen square, not because the government censored it, but because they don't care about it.
- sagebird 7y agoI seek to help Qiu Zhanxuan achieve freedom again. I think it is somewhat unlikely, but I have decided that the best thing I can do is petition US Universities to put Chinese student applications to US universities on hold until Qiu Zhanxuan is released, or his remains are released. To that end I have created a petition. http://chng.it/WgwY9xdN8M http://chng.it/WgwY9xdN8M If you think my strategy is not optimal or have suggestions or a better idea - please respond below or reach out. @williamsharkey on twitter.