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Flutter: a Portable UI Framework for Mobile, Web, Embedded, and Desktop

654 points by mikece 8y ago

mikece 8y ago
Dart could very well end up being the secret weapon behind Flutter. Not only does Dart compile to JavaScript -- it's done this from day 1 -- but it also compiles to ARM binary via LLVM for iOS applications... meaning that compiling to WASM should be a trivial option to enable bringing near-native computational speeds to any targeted platform.
- thosakwe 8y ago
  As of the latest dev version of the Dart SDK, you can actually even build native binaries from VM apps with their AOT compilation tools. Combine this with the fact that Flutter has announced that they intend for desktop support, and I think the future is pretty bright...
- mraleph 8y ago
  > but it also compiles to ARM binary via LLVM for iOS applications [disclaimer: I am TL for Dart Native Compilers] We currently don't use LLVM for compiling Dart to native and we actually never used it in production - though we previously built couple of prototypes to evaluate potential benefits of using LLVM. We use our own AOT compilation toolchain which has roots in our JIT compiler for Dart. > meaning that compiling to WASM should be a trivial option It's not really trivial because you still need to figure out some things - most importantly GC. On ARM you can scan the stack - on WASM you can't. They are working on GC support from WASM, but I don't think it is ready yet. And some things are just unfortunate (e.g. i31ref type which mimics V8's SMI - Dart SMI's are 63-bit on 64-bit platforms).
  - mikece 8y ago
    I stand corrected -- is there a blog post or other deep-dive material where I could learn more?
    - mraleph 8y ago
      There is some information at https://mrale.ph/dartvm/ https://mrale.ph/dartvm/ but there is nothing really comprehensive right now.
  - markdog12 8y ago
    I noticed Chrome Canary added a WebAssembly GC flag last week or so. SIMD too. I think FF had the GC flag for a while now.
  - pingucrimson 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, why'd you decide not to use LLVM?
    - mraleph 8y ago
      In the two experiments that we did LLVM brought only marginal benefits so we could not warrant the huge dependency and associated maintenance costs. We already have a good compilation pipeline, which was developed for the JIT mode and we use that for AOT with good results. Adding LLVM on top increases complexity - suddenly to tweak things you need to be an expert both in our compilation pipeline and LLVM (which is probably 100x larger than the whole Dart VM source code). A lot of optimizations which benefit Dart code size and performance require high level optimizations anyway, so having LLVM does not help you in any way. That said there are obvious benefits for having LLVM as a backend - so we are planning to explore it yet again in the near future.
- hota_mazi 8y ago
  What's so impressive? Kotlin compiles to about three times as many different targets already.
bradhoffman 8y ago
I’ve given Flutter a try with one of my client’s apps, and in some cases, it’s obviously better than native development. Mainly because you can develop for both platforms. I’d be curious to hear where other developers think Flutter is a good framework to use instead of developing native code.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 8y ago
  On iOS it's obvious it uses emulated controls. I think if you want a fully themed app that looks the same across all environments, you should go with Flutter. If you want an app that looks the same as other native apps on the target environment, you should go with React Native.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    I’m not sure why this is downvoted, as it summarizes Flutter pretty well. Flutter’s “Cupertino” theme is obviously an emulation if you use it for more than a minute. If you want your app to look like an Android app on both platforms, though, I think it does pretty well at that.
    - solarkraft 8y ago
      Do users care? It doesn't feel exactly native on Android, but is still fast and looks great (it might indeed be better than native). Afaik the main alternatives, RN and Web (for fully reusable UI) are both heavy and don't feel that native either, yet are popular with developers.
      - hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
        IMO, UI frameworks that try to mimic native components virtually always fail, because they end up being an almost-but-something-I-cant-put-my-finger-on-feels-wrong situation, e.g. performance isn't quite there or the physics is different. Much better IMO to go for a "minimalistic", neutral interface where people won't always be comparing your app to better native controls.
andrewstuart 8y ago
I wonder if the Flutter engine would work on a Linux system that has only 128MB or 256MB? I've been playing around with devices like this https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WiFi-Display-Dongle-1080P-Wireless-Mini-TV-Receiver-HDMI-Miracast-DLNA-Airplay/323786315234 https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WiFi-Display-Dongle-1080P-Wirele... and it would be fun to run Flutter engine on them. edit - would also be fun on the 4GB RAM rk3399 http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399 http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399 tv box: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/X99-TV-BOX-4K-UHD-RK3399-4GB-32GB-ROM-Android-7-1-2-4G-5G-WIFI-64Bit-BT4-1-Media/293007973727 https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/X99-TV-BOX-4K-UHD-RK3399-4GB-32G... open source LInux support is here: https://github.com/rockchip-linux https://github.com/rockchip-linux
- solarkraft 8y ago
  Interesting device. I think RAM shouldn't be the bottle neck, but CPU/GPU speed and memory might be. Do you already know how to get your own software on there?
  - andrewstuart 8y ago
    rk3036 with dual core ARM and Mali 400 GPU http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3036 http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3036 You use buildroot to get your own software on it. CPU: Dual-core ARM Cortex-A7 128KByte unified L2 Cache GPU ARM Mali400 High performance OpenGL ES1.1 and 2.0, OpenVG1.1 etc Embedded 1 shader core with shared hierarchical tiler Memory Video Real-time video decoder of MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4,H.263, H.264, VP8, MVC
- stefan_ 8y ago
  That Rockchip has an ancient Mali 400 GPU (with no open source drivers) that won't be able to render a Flutter app at 1080p, or lower even. The engine library alone is also already ~70 MiB. Running the Flutter Demo on my RPi3 (in aarch64, so the numbers are somewhat inflated) it's at 250 MiB of memory (with about 60 MiB of that for the system) and an additional 60 MiB of graphics memory. This is on a 1366x768, where the RPi graphics just about manage 60 fps (when warmed up).
xkapastel 8y ago
I'm confused about the mentions of Chrome OS here. In particular: > You can also publish Flutter apps for Chrome OS to the Play Store Do they mean, you can publish an Android app and then run it with Chrome OS's support for that? How else are you supposed to run Flutter apps on Chrome OS? The only other way I see is "web" unless I'm missing something.
- wstrange 8y ago
  Flutter apps can now target the chrome browser (preview at this point). So a chromebook can run Flutter apps via the browser OR via an Android Flutter app.
  - eitland 8y ago
    Are you saying this isn't a web framework but rather a Chrome framework??
    - Hixie 8y ago
      (I'm the Flutter TL.) We support targeting the Web (that's the tech preview we released today), and we support targeting Android, both of which ChromeOS support. We also support development on ChromeOS.
      - mkozlows 8y ago
        So there's not, as of now, a "native" (not using the Android emulation) Flutter API in ChromeOS?
        skybrian 8y ago
        ChromeOS apps are (were?) written in JavaScript, using similar API's as Chrome extensions, and can be installed via the Chrome Web Store. So at one time at least, you could write them in Dart and compile to JavaScript. I remember there being Dart wrappers around some of these JavaScript API's. Not sure how smooth the path is anymore or if that's what you meant by native. The modern way would be to write a single page app using standard web API's, if those are enough to accomplish what you want, since it's portable to other browsers that way.
networkimprov 8y ago
Flutter code: https://github.com/flutter/flutter https://github.com/flutter/flutter and docs: https://flutter.dev/docs https://flutter.dev/docs
- stefan_ 8y ago
  The web samples: https://flutter.github.io/samples/ https://flutter.github.io/samples/ Because they make this impossible to find. I literally pieced this link together from the fricking browser screenshot.
  - lucasverra 8y ago
    that alone should be an indication of “not yet ready...for demo” edit : i’ve tested on latest ios safari on iphone SE. not ready for demo. indeed it was good idea to hide links
  - strange_quark 8y ago
    Wow I hate these so much. Unable to select text in a recipe app, scrolling inertia on Mac is different (and no scroll bars?!), trackpad back/forward gestures are apparently hijacked, and those are problems I found from just browsing simple demos for 30 seconds. I really hope this goes into the Google dumpster quickly.
    - ktpsns 8y ago
      I hardly can say how much I second you. This feels like a bad full screen interactive video simulation of a mobile phone screen in the browser.
egeozcan 8y ago
Does anyone know how the server-side story is? Is there a CRUD-heaven like Django or Rails for Dart which can share the types with a Flutter client? IMHO Google should focus on that too, if not. I passionately hate re-typing same REST-entities over and over again, and that's one of the reasons why I love TypeScript.
- car12 8y ago
  What is a proto?
- thosakwe 8y ago
  Self-plug, but I just released Angel v2.0 this past month: https://angel-dart.dev https://angel-dart.dev (and https://docs.angel-dart.dev https://docs.angel-dart.dev) It's got a great story for code-sharing, an ORM, GraphQL support, along with dozens of supplementary packages for things like static files, WebSockets, etc.
  - fuddle 8y ago
    Awesome, this looks great!
    - thosakwe 8y ago
      Thanks! Means a lot. I've been working this for longer than 3 years now.
  - victor106 8y ago
    Awesome!!! Looking for something like this. Will definitely check this out.
  - Daegalus 8y ago
    as someone who originally wanted to push Dart backend dev coming from Node and seeing the potential of Dart on the backend, I congratulate you on achieving what I couldn't with Fukiya (probably dont know it, it was my attempt at an Express/Sinatra style framework for dart). Glad someone did it. I will now be using Angel if I do any Dart backend dev.
zackbrown 8y ago
Has Flutter solved its footprint-bloat problem? The internet is littered with reports of 10-100MB+ .ipa and .apk binaries coming out of simple Flutter apps for iOS + Android. Google states they can't imagine the footprint ever dropping as low as 1MB. [1] On Web, 1MB of base runtime is a complete showstopper. Embedded applications may suffer similarly. Does today's announcement mean Google has figured out how to fix this for Web, or are just ignoring it? Or worse — are they planning to 'boil the frog' with a sneaky transition into a world of a New Flash Player? > 1MB of Flutter runtime got you down? Don't worry, Flutter Player now ships with Chrome. This is possibly a very dark direction for the Web, of which Google is a powerful steward. [1] https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/12456#issuecomment-335051445 https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/12456#issuecomment...
- michaelchisari 8y ago
  I tested it, and the "Hello, World" example results in a 560k js package. Uglified and minified takes it down to around 480k. Gzip takes that to 140k and Brotli compression to 100k. That's a lot to bootstrap an app with, but it's not unreasonable, considering what most frameworks these days will start you with.
  - leeoniya 8y ago
    it's not just what goes over the wire. that's 560k of JS that has to be parsed and compiled, which is a shitload.
    - michaelchisari 8y ago
      True, but (unfortunately) it's hardly an outlier in today's ecosystem.
      - zackbrown 8y ago
        Try importing `flutter/animation` — footprint goes WAY off the deep end. `animation.ddc.js` is 4.4MB alone (unminified), never mind the rest of the runtime AND userland application code. You can see this in the flutter_web/examples/gallery example. [`webdev build` failed for me in examples/gallery, so I'd love to see what a successfully minified version of that example looks like — I'm currently deeply skeptical.] Compared to React/Vue/Angular and friends, this appears to be a monstrous outlier.
gjmacd 8y ago
We need to learn yet another language (Dart)? No thanks.
- michaelchisari 8y ago
  It's a bloody simple language to learn if you already know one of the similar modern typed languages (Typescript, Swift, Kotlin, etc). You can honestly pick it up in a weekend, there's nothing particularly new or groundbreaking.
  - cztomsik 8y ago
    language itself is never a problem, you can learn fortran too, but you'd be on your own with most of the tasks
  - _eric 8y ago
    Agreed. I love Typescript and picking up Dart has been quiet easy. Of course there's much more than the language itself, but other than one detail or another, tha transition seems to be fairly easy.
  - pacala 8y ago
    The language is easy. One can also learn English in 5 minutes: SUBJ-VERB-[JJ]*-OBJ, done! The library ecosystem and best practices on the other hand...
- cztomsik 8y ago
  Yeah, that's one of the 2 major concerns I have with flutter: - new lang, platform, libs, tools, everything, it's like let's just dump 20ys of what we already have (either javascript or java/kotlin) - excessive nesting (border, center, etc. it's much worse than html and I'd consider even that to be over what I'd like to have) BTW: I'm working on subset of react-native for desktop (not yet ready) https://github.com/cztomsik/stain/tree/master/src https://github.com/cztomsik/stain/tree/master/src
- otobrglez 8y ago
  Exactly. Why o why is this not written in a way to support TypeScript?
_eric 8y ago
Anyone using Flutter with windows 10? It's been a pain to get the emulators to work - having to changes some Bios config and all.
- JohnTHaller 8y ago
  I have Flutter up and running on Windows 10 with the virtual Android device connected up and running my simple apps I'm playing with.
  - _eric 8y ago
    Are you using an Intel or AMD processor? Looks like some Bios config are specific to Intel.
    - ElCapitanMarkla 8y ago
      I gave up. I have to run a VirtualBox VM for my work which means I have to have HyperV disabled, which means the Android emulators don’t work... also tried the arm images but no cigar. I’m running a Ryzen CPU and I feel like that’s half the battle.
      - Marsymars 8y ago
        You could technically migrate your VirtualBox VMs to Hyper-V.
- ericathegreat 8y ago
  I found it very easy to get it up and running with Android, although to be fair I already had the Android emulators running from my foray into React Native. I expect getting iOS emulators running would be very hard on a non Apple platform though.
yesimahuman 8y ago
Flutter for Web is heavily reminiscent of Famous with its custom layout system and off-DOM rendering (or guessing DOM rendering support w/ CSS transforms of divs). To see, just view-source on the NYT demo. Quite divergent from the web platform in my opinion. The fact that they have to re-implement copy and paste (and, accessibility features!) further adds to that: https://medium.com/flutter-io/bringing-flutter-to-the-web-904de05f0df0 https://medium.com/flutter-io/bringing-flutter-to-the-web-90... Quite bizarre compared to the Chrome team "Use the Platform" messaging.
- aerovistae 8y ago
  God, I totally forgot about Famous. That was honestly one of the weirder things I’ve seen in my years of web development. Such a gorgeous website and yet I never really understood what they were trying to sell me on. So much marketing, such little end result....never went anywhere, never amounted to anything meaningful.
  - tlrobinson 8y ago
    Apparently they're still a company, and still a lot of marketing with little end result: https://famous.co/ https://famous.co/
  - Andrex 8y ago
    I think one of my first HN comments was meekly raising my hand and asking "OK, but what actually is this?" And getting quite a few (unexpected) upvotes, haha.
- wstrange 8y ago
  Web development with DOM, CSS, etc. is a morass of complexity. I'm really excited about a fresh approach to UI development. If they can pull it off, it is going to be very compelling. It is going to take an enormous amount of investment. Something like this could only be done by a "FAANG" size company.
  - baybal2 8y ago
martzy13 8y ago
YACPF Yet Another Cross Platform Framework.
mixmastamyk 8y ago
Does the runtime work on Linux, i.e. Debian, Ubuntu, rather than ChromeOS?
- Hixie 8y ago
  (I'm the Flutter TL.) As a target platform or as a development platform? We don't support targeting Linux out of the box today, but we support Linux as a first-class development platform (it's what I use). That said, we do work on Linux, and if you're willing to do a bit of work, you can use it to write Linux apps. If you want to target X11, you'll need something like https://github.com/google/flutter-desktop-embedding https://github.com/google/flutter-desktop-embedding whereas if you want to target the hardware directly, you can do something like https://medium.com/flutter-io/flutter-on-raspberry-pi-mostly-from-scratch-2824c5e7dcb1 https://medium.com/flutter-io/flutter-on-raspberry-pi-mostly... .
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    Interesting thanks. I'm looking to make something that can play media and animations would like it to run on beefy PCs as well as tablets if I can.
    - Hixie 8y ago
      We're not quite there yet unless you have a high tolerance for pain, but in the coming year we should in a good place to support that kind of thing.
      - mixmastamyk 8y ago
        pain: bugs or performance, or both? ;-)
        Hixie 8y ago
        Neither. More like "figuring out your build system and how to integrate with the Flutter embedder API and how to hook all that up to the Dart compiler" and that kind of thing.
thijser 8y ago
Android adoption is slowly increasing, besides Google Ads, Alibaba and TikTok lite are also using Flutter at this moment: https://www.appbrain.com/stats/libraries/details/flutter/flutter https://www.appbrain.com/stats/libraries/details/flutter/flu...
otobrglez 8y ago
Love the concept, love the push. But to be sincere, won't touch it with a pole because of Dart. However,... Why o why is this thing not written with/for TypeScript?
- skybrian 8y ago
  They needed to work with a language team that's willing to modify the language to meet their requirements. Dart needed a killer app and was willing to work with them. The rest is history. JavaScript was invented for similar reasons (though by one person).
- cageface 8y ago
  Why does everything have to be in JS? I'm all for making JS better for the environments where you have no choice but honestly even with TypeScript it's still a pretty deeply flawed language. Any decent dev should be able to get up to speed in Dart in a week.
- scotth 8y ago
  I've been working with it for about 6 months, and TS a couple years before that. Dart is missing some things, but it's alright. The standard lib is great.
- isoos 8y ago
  I've worked with a few interns that were interviewed and tasked with small scripts and libs to be developed in Dart. Most of the "got" the language in a few minutes, and were productive in a few hours. (Disclaimer: they were all using the IntelliJ community version with the Dart plugin, but hey, tooling is there for a reason).
- realusername 8y ago
  I don't like Dart much to be honest as well, I've tried used it for about a week to try Flutter and the experience has been pretty bad. It feels kind of Java-like to me, which is really not a positive thing.
i18ns 8y ago
If flutter supports hotfix, it's perfect for engineering.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Flutter can hot reload code, if that's what you're asking.
  - i18ns 8y ago
    HotFix is a technique like code push, I had asked Flutter developer before. Flutter not support it right now.
    - sondh 8y ago
      The TL (he is on HN) said Code Push won't come anytime soon: https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/14330#issuecomment-485565194 https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/14330#issuecomment...
ergothus 8y ago
No one has (yet) mentioned the main reason I ignored Flutter when it initially came out and why I continue to have reluctance - It's google. They have a terrible track record with products AND with libraries. GWT? Dart (pre flutter)? NaCl? How about all those initial Angular devs? That's not a statement on the quality of the result (though some of those examples do indicate concerns), but if I'm not alone in avoiding a product that tackles a real industry need because of the source, that's a bad sign.
- ehsankia 8y ago
  GWT lived for over a decade (how many web libraries do you know that have survived for for that long?), AngularJS is still in maintenance mode, Dart died when it didn't get browser support and Typescript was obviously the better alternative. At the end of day though, I look at if Google itself is using it extensively, because that's when a library will have the best support/longevity.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    Dart for the web may not be popular, but it's actively maintained [1] and being used by AdWords. There was some Dart web framework churn before they settled on AngularDart. [1] https://github.com/dart-lang/angular/commits/master https://github.com/dart-lang/angular/commits/master
  - rpeden 8y ago
    GWT is still pretty alive, too. It hasn't seen a release in a while because the developers contributing to it have been working on making it work with Google's recently open sourced J2CL compiler. From what I've read, builds of though are available but no official release yet. I use React and Angular these days, but even back in 2010-2011 GWT felt pretty "done". At least for the things I needed to use it for. Starting a new project with it now probably wouldn't be a career-enhancing move, but it was a pretty decent way to build really complex web apps at a time when the JS ecosystem was a lot less mature than it is now.
- mevile 8y ago
  You didn't even mention the Closure library which was released and then practically abandoned. We invested so much into Closure where I worked, with the promise that this is what Google used internally, when suddenly Angular dropped out of Google and that sucked up all the oxygen in the room.
d0100 8y ago
Flash is back
- ericathegreat 8y ago
  And that's a genuinely great thing. Sure, by the end Flash was a pain in everyone's backside. But Flash was critical in the transformation from a text-only internet to one where we could watch videos, or play games, or chat to other people in real time. So much of our modern web standards were born from an attempt to make it possible to do the things that Flash taught us should be possible. If Flutter can be half as transformative as Flash was, then bring it on!
edem 8y ago
Does this work with a language which is not Dart?
mixedCase 8y ago
I cannot wait to switch from having to use a compile-to-JS toolchain to a compile-to-Dart-to-JS toolchain in order to get a language with a good type system. I'm hopeful Dart will get better given what I've seen and what a member of the Dart team mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago, but right now it's still nothing that gets close to the ancient ML. Would be nice if they learnt a few things from Facebook or Microsoft.
- gwbas1c 8y ago
  Look at Blazor. It's C# that compiles to Webassembly. None of the JS nonsense required!
  - mixedCase 8y ago
    As of right now unfortunately only C, C++ and Rust work well as source languages for WASM. The payloads for .NET and other managed languages go through the roof; but as WASM gains features they're bound to become more viable.
sara7262 8y ago
Who is Satan and why there is evil Best video about this with proofs https://youtu.be/AWNM1-xYI5E https://youtu.be/AWNM1-xYI5E Funny monkey using phone in video Don't think just you can use phone See how he is searching and watching own monkey videos on phone http://bit.ly/2DS4p2R http://bit.ly/2DS4p2R See what happened when a lion was trying to kill man http://bit.ly/2H2zsKc http://bit.ly/2H2zsKc
pier25 8y ago
I love the idea of Flutter for mobile and desktop but I'm very skeptical about the web implementation. They will need to reimplement tons of stuff that are already included in the browsers and ship all that code with the application.
- skybrian 8y ago
  I look at it differently. When someone compiles a game to webassembly it's seen as an accomplishment, right? It doesn't mean you would normally write web apps this way, particularly if you're targeting consumers internationally and need web pages to load fast. But being able to make a desktop or mobile app work in a browser should be useful, particularly for businesses. Sometimes you're not targeting the whole world and can assume users are office workers who have a reasonably fast desktop-class computer and a decent network connection. (Or if they're away from the office, they've already installed the mobile app.) Some markets are more sensitive to download size than others and you need to understand your users to know what you can get away with.
  - pier25 8y ago
    > When someone compiles a game to webassembly it's seen as an accomplishment, right? Yes, but browsers do not have game engine APIs. They do however have a layout engine, text editing and rendering, accessibility features, and a very long etc. Basically anything you need to make an app with text, images, buttons, etc. Don't me wrong, I'm sure Flutter for the web is a technical marvel. > Some markets are more sensitive to download size than others and you need to understand your users to know what you can get away with. So you are arguing that Flutter for the web is a nice bonus you get but not really intended to be a general use case web dev framework. If this is the case, it seems the Flutter team is missing a huge opportunity by not being a truly universal UI toolkit which it could be if it used the DOM instead of reimplementing everything.
    - skybrian 8y ago
      I don't know what it's intended for or who will find it useful. Just saying that it's not a binary choice (either useful or useless for everyone).
Animats 8y ago
Does it use material design?
- saagarjha 8y ago
  It can, if you theme it that way.
Andrex 8y ago
This may be a silly question, but for any Flutter folks here, are there any plans for WebAssembly or is that putting the cart before the horse?
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richarddddd 8y ago
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ww520 8y ago
Would Flutter be good for cross platform game development? Or better stick with Unreal Dev Kit?
- rhokstar 8y ago
  For now, Unreal. Flutter at this stage doesn't have support for 3D via OpenGL ES or similar. Heavily focused on 2D only.
- Lionga 8y ago
  For 2D it is good, for 3D not
craftoman 8y ago
Question: Should I start experimenting universal apps with .NET or Flutter and what if Google abandon the whole project in the next few years?
gdsdfe 8y ago
Wow they've doubled down on Flutter ... Hmm better check it out
xparco 8y ago
Flutter sucks because of f nested hell
sandGorgon 8y ago
Can someone from the Google team comment on what's going on - https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/kotlin-is-now-googles-preferred-language-for-android-app-development/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/kotlin-is-now-googles-pref... >Android development will become increasingly Kotlin-first,” Google writes in today’s announcement https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/google-launches-jetpack-compose-an-open-source-kotlin-based-ui-development-toolkit/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/google-launches-jetpack-co... >Google today announced the first preview of Jetpack Compose, a new open-source UI toolkit for Kotlin developers who want to use a reactive programming model similar to React Native and Vue.js. This is massively confusing. Do we invest in Kotlin ...or do we invest in Dart ? Remember I'm talking about developing nations like India - where startups like ours invest in training college graduates . These guys can't afford 10$ courses on udacity and Coursera. But even if it was not India, having this parallel signalling for Android based startups is very confusing. Atleast Apple was very clear about Swift . Where will Android be in 2 years : Dart or Kotlin ?
- seabrookmx 8y ago
  There's been activity porting the Android Java components to Fuschia. I have no inside information (not a Googler) but that leads me to believe that if Fuschia becomes the next mobile OS from Google it will support both. So same goes for Android I would assume. Why does an OS need to have a single stack? You can write desktop apps in a zillion different languages and Frameworks after all.
  - chupasaurus 8y ago
    s/Fuschia/Fuchsia/ And also it hints that you don't know what are you writing about. > You can write desktop apps in a zillion different languages and Frameworks after all. You can but the portability would be an issue. Each major OS has their own set of API/ABI, vastly different from each other, and Fuchsia isn't an exemption. You can write with QT for desktops but it wouldn't work on mobiles, you can write for Electron/CEH but lose performance and still have to do a lot of trickery, and so on.
    - 8y ago
adrianlmm 8y ago
It doesn't work on Edge nice job Google. https://imgur.com/a/QhIzx4e https://imgur.com/a/QhIzx4e
qwerty456127 8y ago
The last post on desktop Flutter said it was going to change a lot. Is this time over?
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  It seems like nothing has changed. The repository wiki still says "The current Linux shell is a GLFW placeholder, to allow early experimentation... Expect the APIs for the final shell to be radically different from the current implementation."
carmate383 8y ago
Goodbye React. You were good to no-one.
fxfan 8y ago
Nobody should be using a tool that doesn't make money for google without too many indirections.
codedokode 8y ago
It is interesting that they have a special, third-party mirror for China: [1] Also, I don't like Dart after I used a site built with it by Google. As far as I remember, it was a Doubleclick for publishers or something ad-related. It was very slow, even in Chromium, all animations were laggy, and in Developer Tools I saw that it loaded megabytes of JS, compiled from Dart code. For example, a "What's new" widget was implemented as a separate app and loaded several megabytes of code including its own copy of a standard library. I would recommend against using Dart for Web sites. [1] https://flutter.dev/community/china https://flutter.dev/community/china
pjmlp 8y ago
> UI-as-code language features. An euphemism for "we failed to provide a good UI designer experience".
t3hprofit 8y ago
Hey! Just what we need, another UI framework! oh...wait. no we don't.
Illniyar 8y ago
This is the example flutter app for the web -https://www.nytimes.com/games/prototype/kenken#/ https://www.nytimes.com/games/prototype/kenken#/ This is flash. You can't do anything in it that fills like the web - no copy paste, right clicking causes things to happen. I don't expect games like this to have links and proper bookmarkable urls, but I doubt it'll work as expected if it did. This is the epitome of the problem with flutter - it re-implements the UI, creating an experience that is just close enough but not good enough. And no matter how many smart people and an insane amount of resources they put into it, it'll never be good enough. There's a reason why flash died out, and it's not only apple. It was dropped for making interactive website long before apple killed it - it doesn't work well with the web.
- akadeb 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing this link. I have been an avid Sudoku fan and am really glad I found Ken-Ken
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  I’m not convinced that Flutter needs to beat native to survive- it just needs to be better than React Native, Xamarin, and PWAs.
  - 076ae80a-3c97-4 8y ago
    Which is going to be hard. Xamarin these days is really nice to work with.
    - Apocryphon 8y ago
      Perhaps, but for whatever reason React Native seems to still dwarf it. Maybe the companies that tend to churn out popular mobile apps just don’t invest in .NET?
      - k__ 8y ago
        React-Native has two significant pros that Flutter doesn't have. Native UI. I heard multiple times now that Flutter drains the battery rather quickly because it doesn't use the highly optimized native UI elements. JavaScript. There are more JavaScript developers out there than .NET ones. Also, the JS devs are much cheaper. Another interesting pro is, you can use RN to develop basically everywhere. Expo (a RN framework) announced Web support, so you get Android, iOS, and Web out of the box. Microsoft announced UWP support and rewrote react-native-windows.
CapsAdmin 8y ago
The lack of accessibility sucks, but there's a part of me wondering why we don't have accessibility tools that don't rely on us tagging images and giving us the ability to navigate the layout of a page. Wouldn't tools that do text and image recognition based on screen selection, arrow keys that move to the center of the nearest shape, etc. be a lot more useful? Like a Google lens for desktop. Text selection is 100% reliable, but being able to get the text and layout from any arbitrary image and be able to navigate that would help those who struggle with vision a lot more, even if it's only 85% reliable.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Once you're at the level of OCRing text from screen, it becomes a general-AI-complete problem. See e.g. how bad OCR still is for books, and there you can still make good assumptions about the shape and meaning of text (sentences, paragraphs, chapters). With arbitrary UIs, you have to recognize what each block of pixels means, and that's the GAI-complete problem at which even humans fail (that's why the UI/UX/HCI fields exist).
LyalinDotCom 8y ago
Great to see the Flutter dev team jump in here to answer questions. Kudos on that and congrats on release!
rameshvel 8y ago
This is great news for those investing in Flutter. But from the looks of it, it seems like a Front end framework (AKA client-side rendering). Is there a plan to implement a web framework that can render Server Side Pages. Since it's developed in Dart. Like how next.js took react and implemented an isomorphic rendering. I don't think any reason not doing it. That's a win-win. I would really give it a shot if they can do that. Anyone from Flutter dev got a comment??
ramon 8y ago
These frameworks are starting to get too complex that is why the sizes are huge. I liked that pika concept of not using webpack anymore. I think the future of the mother of frameworks is to o stop compiling in webpack!
bubblewrap 8y ago
How does Dart compare to Kotlin? I was planning on learning Kotlin, hoping to use it for server side development as well. But somehow now I have a feeling that developing mobile flutter apps might be more pleasant (pure feelings not based on any real data). Does Dart offer good performance, asynchronous IO and all those things?
dfischer 8y ago
Is the intention for flutter for web to replace angular dart?
jbverschoor 8y ago
Nice and all, but as it's google... When will it be abandonded?
k__ 8y ago
Because some people asked when to use Flutter instead of something like React-Native. Complex UI. If you got a system with complex UI, like Photoshop, Maya or Logic, you want it to look the same on all platforms. Sure, it won't adhere 100% to the platforms idiosyncracies, but re-designing it forever platform isn't an option. It's too expensive and people already poured time into learning the UI and just want it to work the same when they changed platforms.
foobarbazetc 8y ago
Flutter = new Flash. :)
tobiaswk 8y ago
I simply love Flutter for Android and iOS development and have been using it since alpha. I haven't tried the web application part; I'm pretty sure I never will. Here's my opinion. I've created several apps with Flutter and every time I enjoy it. The UI is easy to make beautiful and the resulting code easy to read. It feels like all what the current Android SDK is missing. The current Android SDK is old and quite frankly painfull to work with. You just can't create beautiful apps with ease; it's always a hassle. It's also messy and not easy to read the resulting code. The way the whole way the framework is structured entails ugly code in my opinion. This all becomes evident when you use different apps on Google Play. You get the sense that every app reinvented their UI; there is no real UI continuity. Google became a freeloader after JetBrains created Kotlin and marketed it will. The thing is Kotlin made just a little better; in terms of boilerplate stuff; the framework I still hate compared to Flutter. What I really like about flutter is the framework and “it’s all a widget” idea. You can basically do crazy things in UI with ease and on the other hand just use the standard UI components with a great result. As an example I've created an alternative to Nissan's Connect EV app. It's basically a way to control and monitor your electric vehicle from Nissan. The official app is I’m very disappointed by; it’s slow and full of wrong decisions. My alternative is called "My Leaf" and its available on Google Play and the App Store; https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dk.kjeldsen.carwingsflutter https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dk.kjeldsen.ca... https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/my-leaf-for-nissan-ev/id1436701776 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/my-leaf-for-nissan-ev/id1436... It's completely open source.
Kaotique 8y ago
Frameworks like this have come and gone in the last 10 years. I'm not convinced that using this will save you time in the long run. You need to invest a ton of time learning the ins and outs of these frameworks to get stuff done. There are always limitations compared to real native solutions. I think the time is wiser spend understanding the iOS and Android platforms itself. There is also a big chance that Facebook, Google or whoever will drop their project at some point leaving you hanging and having to rewrite everything again to native or the next multiplatform framework.
Gilbertman 8y ago
After read all these comments, if there's an idiom I can put, hater is gonna hate.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
It feels wrong architecturally for Google to be pushing this right now: 1) Dart was intended as a Java like language and is inferior to Kotlin, a language they just endorsed on Android yesterday. Dart feels like a step back, not forward. The message is confusing from Google on this front. They have a huge Kotlin developer community already. Why push Dart at all? 2) World + dog is moving towards compiling Kotlin and many other languages to web assembly as well as native. Cross compiling Dart to javascript was maybe a valid choice a few years ago but not in 2019. See e.g. Rust roadmap for this year, .Net 5.0 agenda for MS, Kotlin Native, etc. 3) LLVM seems to be the toolchain of choice for this type of stuff to happen. Go and Kotlin + WASM would be very valid choices for Google to prioritize on this platform. 4) In a browser you need to be driving the DOM to look and feel like a proper web application. If you abandon that notion, you might as well grab something like QT or some other UI toolkit and use that. My recommendation would be for Google to untangle flutter from Dart and just retire that and focus on WASM and native based runtimes only. That's going to take time and in my view it's inevitable that whatever they are pushing right now is ultimately going to be deprecated in favor of something like that.
- edtechdev 8y ago
  Dart was originally meant to be a superior alternative to JavaScript. They originally wanted native Dart support in the browser (dartium) just like there is native JavaScript support. Kotlin was/is meant to be a superior alternative to Java. Java != JavaScript Flutter I'd say is more like a successor to Flash. Dart is now relegated primarily to being Flutter's ActionScript.
  - jillesvangurp 8y ago
    Either way, it feels like step back. Kotlin compiles quite nicely to javascript as well.
- munificent 8y ago
  If you just look at the languages, Kotlin has a lot of nice features that Dart doesn't currently have. Non-nullable types, extension methods, and data classes are on the top of my mind. If you look at Kotlin and Dart as implementations, then there are differences under the hood. Kotlin is deeply married to the JVM. That has a lot of obvious pros: you can seamlessly interop with your existing Java code, reuse the existing JVM ecosystem, and incrementally migrate your code to Kotlin a file at a time. There are trade-offs to this, though. Kotlin fundamentally doesn't own its runtime. It gets the JVM for free, but anything the JVM lacks, it has little easy way to acquire. Dart is both its own language, and its own ecosystem and runtime. This means the adoption cost is higher, and our growth has been slower. We had to build more from scratch. But the return on investment is that we have a runtime that is deeply tuned for Dart and the needs of our users. For example: * Our garbage collector is tuned for the frequently-allocated but short-lived objects that get constructed every frame by a reactive framework. * When you deploy your app, we compile your Dart code ahead of time, all the way to machine code, statically link in the runtime, and give you a standalone native executable. Our deployment model is closer to C/C++ than to Java or C#. * Our runtime object representation faithfully understands the full language. For example, there's no type erasure, and generics are represented at runtime. You can ask a list if it's a List<int> or List<Object> at runtime and it will tell you true. * We can expose interesting debugging, profiling, and other diagnostic hooks from the runtime to tools. For example, the Flutter Inspector [0] will show you the bounding boxes of every widget on screen from the running app on your device. Touching one navigates your IDE to the corresponding source code. We can do that because we have the ability to plumb things all the way through the IDE, parser, compiler, runtime, and debugger, because it's all a custom stack. * Likewise, the near-instant hot reload stuff we do works because the language design, Flutter framework design, IDE integration, compiler, and runtime all work in concert to enable that. Even non-obvious things like the fact that static fields are lazily initialized in Dart make this stuff easier. Of course, the Kotlin+JVM advantages are real too. It's a question of which trade-offs are right for you today, and tomorrow. One thing I'm particularly excited about right now with Dart is that we're in a much better places to evolve the language quickly now that we've moved to 2.0, a full static type system, and a shared front end. Right now, we're implementing non-nullable types. Ours will be fully sound, unlike in Kotlin and TypeScript, because they have to handle values flowing in through interop. We're also implementing extension methods. I'm hoping we can do something a la data classes not too long after. If we pull that off, I hope users will feel that we're at parity at the language level and then it becomes more a question of which tools are the best ones for your need. [0]: https://flutter.dev/docs/development/tools/inspector https://flutter.dev/docs/development/tools/inspector
wpdev_63 8y ago
i just wished they used kotlin... even if they targeted the llvm. it's a great language with every feature under the sun - why reinvent the wheel?
lcswillems 7y ago
Am I right if I assume that Flutter for web will not be SEO friendly?

654 points by mikece 8y ago

Dart could very well end up being the secret weapon behind Flutter. Not only does Dart compile to JavaScript -- it's done this from day 1 -- but it also compiles to ARM binary via LLVM for iOS applications... meaning that compiling to WASM should be a trivial option to enable bringing near-native computational speeds to any targeted platform.

thosakwe 8y ago
As of the latest dev version of the Dart SDK, you can actually even build native binaries from VM apps with their AOT compilation tools. Combine this with the fact that Flutter has announced that they intend for desktop support, and I think the future is pretty bright...
mraleph 8y ago
> but it also compiles to ARM binary via LLVM for iOS applications [disclaimer: I am TL for Dart Native Compilers] We currently don't use LLVM for compiling Dart to native and we actually never used it in production - though we previously built couple of prototypes to evaluate potential benefits of using LLVM. We use our own AOT compilation toolchain which has roots in our JIT compiler for Dart. > meaning that compiling to WASM should be a trivial option It's not really trivial because you still need to figure out some things - most importantly GC. On ARM you can scan the stack - on WASM you can't. They are working on GC support from WASM, but I don't think it is ready yet. And some things are just unfortunate (e.g. i31ref type which mimics V8's SMI - Dart SMI's are 63-bit on 64-bit platforms).
- mikece 8y ago
  I stand corrected -- is there a blog post or other deep-dive material where I could learn more?
  - mraleph 8y ago
    There is some information at https://mrale.ph/dartvm/ https://mrale.ph/dartvm/ but there is nothing really comprehensive right now.
- markdog12 8y ago
  I noticed Chrome Canary added a WebAssembly GC flag last week or so. SIMD too. I think FF had the GC flag for a while now.
- pingucrimson 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, why'd you decide not to use LLVM?
  - mraleph 8y ago
    In the two experiments that we did LLVM brought only marginal benefits so we could not warrant the huge dependency and associated maintenance costs. We already have a good compilation pipeline, which was developed for the JIT mode and we use that for AOT with good results. Adding LLVM on top increases complexity - suddenly to tweak things you need to be an expert both in our compilation pipeline and LLVM (which is probably 100x larger than the whole Dart VM source code). A lot of optimizations which benefit Dart code size and performance require high level optimizations anyway, so having LLVM does not help you in any way. That said there are obvious benefits for having LLVM as a backend - so we are planning to explore it yet again in the near future.
hota_mazi 8y ago
What's so impressive? Kotlin compiles to about three times as many different targets already.

bradhoffman 8y ago

I’ve given Flutter a try with one of my client’s apps, and in some cases, it’s obviously better than native development. Mainly because you can develop for both platforms. I’d be curious to hear where other developers think Flutter is a good framework to use instead of developing native code.

s_y_n_t_a_x 8y ago
On iOS it's obvious it uses emulated controls. I think if you want a fully themed app that looks the same across all environments, you should go with Flutter. If you want an app that looks the same as other native apps on the target environment, you should go with React Native.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  I’m not sure why this is downvoted, as it summarizes Flutter pretty well. Flutter’s “Cupertino” theme is obviously an emulation if you use it for more than a minute. If you want your app to look like an Android app on both platforms, though, I think it does pretty well at that.
  - solarkraft 8y ago
    Do users care? It doesn't feel exactly native on Android, but is still fast and looks great (it might indeed be better than native). Afaik the main alternatives, RN and Web (for fully reusable UI) are both heavy and don't feel that native either, yet are popular with developers.
    - hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
      IMO, UI frameworks that try to mimic native components virtually always fail, because they end up being an almost-but-something-I-cant-put-my-finger-on-feels-wrong situation, e.g. performance isn't quite there or the physics is different. Much better IMO to go for a "minimalistic", neutral interface where people won't always be comparing your app to better native controls.

andrewstuart 8y ago

I wonder if the Flutter engine would work on a Linux system that has only 128MB or 256MB? I've been playing around with devices like this https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WiFi-Display-Dongle-1080P-Wireless-Mini-TV-Receiver-HDMI-Miracast-DLNA-Airplay/323786315234 https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WiFi-Display-Dongle-1080P-Wirele... and it would be fun to run Flutter engine on them. edit - would also be fun on the 4GB RAM rk3399 http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399 http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3399 tv box: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/X99-TV-BOX-4K-UHD-RK3399-4GB-32GB-ROM-Android-7-1-2-4G-5G-WIFI-64Bit-BT4-1-Media/293007973727 https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/X99-TV-BOX-4K-UHD-RK3399-4GB-32G... open source LInux support is here: https://github.com/rockchip-linux https://github.com/rockchip-linux

solarkraft 8y ago
Interesting device. I think RAM shouldn't be the bottle neck, but CPU/GPU speed and memory might be. Do you already know how to get your own software on there?
- andrewstuart 8y ago
  rk3036 with dual core ARM and Mali 400 GPU http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3036 http://rockchip.wikidot.com/rk3036 You use buildroot to get your own software on it. CPU: Dual-core ARM Cortex-A7 128KByte unified L2 Cache GPU ARM Mali400 High performance OpenGL ES1.1 and 2.0, OpenVG1.1 etc Embedded 1 shader core with shared hierarchical tiler Memory Video Real-time video decoder of MPEG-1, MPEG-2, MPEG-4,H.263, H.264, VP8, MVC
stefan_ 8y ago
That Rockchip has an ancient Mali 400 GPU (with no open source drivers) that won't be able to render a Flutter app at 1080p, or lower even. The engine library alone is also already ~70 MiB. Running the Flutter Demo on my RPi3 (in aarch64, so the numbers are somewhat inflated) it's at 250 MiB of memory (with about 60 MiB of that for the system) and an additional 60 MiB of graphics memory. This is on a 1366x768, where the RPi graphics just about manage 60 fps (when warmed up).

xkapastel 8y ago

I'm confused about the mentions of Chrome OS here. In particular: > You can also publish Flutter apps for Chrome OS to the Play Store Do they mean, you can publish an Android app and then run it with Chrome OS's support for that? How else are you supposed to run Flutter apps on Chrome OS? The only other way I see is "web" unless I'm missing something.

wstrange 8y ago
Flutter apps can now target the chrome browser (preview at this point). So a chromebook can run Flutter apps via the browser OR via an Android Flutter app.
- eitland 8y ago
  Are you saying this isn't a web framework but rather a Chrome framework??
  - Hixie 8y ago
    (I'm the Flutter TL.) We support targeting the Web (that's the tech preview we released today), and we support targeting Android, both of which ChromeOS support. We also support development on ChromeOS.
    - mkozlows 8y ago
      So there's not, as of now, a "native" (not using the Android emulation) Flutter API in ChromeOS?
      - skybrian 8y ago
        ChromeOS apps are (were?) written in JavaScript, using similar API's as Chrome extensions, and can be installed via the Chrome Web Store. So at one time at least, you could write them in Dart and compile to JavaScript. I remember there being Dart wrappers around some of these JavaScript API's. Not sure how smooth the path is anymore or if that's what you meant by native. The modern way would be to write a single page app using standard web API's, if those are enough to accomplish what you want, since it's portable to other browsers that way.

networkimprov 8y ago

Flutter code: https://github.com/flutter/flutter https://github.com/flutter/flutter and docs: https://flutter.dev/docs https://flutter.dev/docs

stefan_ 8y ago
The web samples: https://flutter.github.io/samples/ https://flutter.github.io/samples/ Because they make this impossible to find. I literally pieced this link together from the fricking browser screenshot.
- lucasverra 8y ago
  that alone should be an indication of “not yet ready...for demo” edit : i’ve tested on latest ios safari on iphone SE. not ready for demo. indeed it was good idea to hide links
- strange_quark 8y ago
  Wow I hate these so much. Unable to select text in a recipe app, scrolling inertia on Mac is different (and no scroll bars?!), trackpad back/forward gestures are apparently hijacked, and those are problems I found from just browsing simple demos for 30 seconds. I really hope this goes into the Google dumpster quickly.
  - ktpsns 8y ago
    I hardly can say how much I second you. This feels like a bad full screen interactive video simulation of a mobile phone screen in the browser.

egeozcan 8y ago

Does anyone know how the server-side story is? Is there a CRUD-heaven like Django or Rails for Dart which can share the types with a Flutter client? IMHO Google should focus on that too, if not. I passionately hate re-typing same REST-entities over and over again, and that's one of the reasons why I love TypeScript.

car12 8y ago
What is a proto?
thosakwe 8y ago
Self-plug, but I just released Angel v2.0 this past month: https://angel-dart.dev https://angel-dart.dev (and https://docs.angel-dart.dev https://docs.angel-dart.dev) It's got a great story for code-sharing, an ORM, GraphQL support, along with dozens of supplementary packages for things like static files, WebSockets, etc.
- fuddle 8y ago
  Awesome, this looks great!
  - thosakwe 8y ago
    Thanks! Means a lot. I've been working this for longer than 3 years now.
- victor106 8y ago
  Awesome!!! Looking for something like this. Will definitely check this out.
- Daegalus 8y ago
  as someone who originally wanted to push Dart backend dev coming from Node and seeing the potential of Dart on the backend, I congratulate you on achieving what I couldn't with Fukiya (probably dont know it, it was my attempt at an Express/Sinatra style framework for dart). Glad someone did it. I will now be using Angel if I do any Dart backend dev.

zackbrown 8y ago

Has Flutter solved its footprint-bloat problem? The internet is littered with reports of 10-100MB+ .ipa and .apk binaries coming out of simple Flutter apps for iOS + Android. Google states they can't imagine the footprint ever dropping as low as 1MB. [1] On Web, 1MB of base runtime is a complete showstopper. Embedded applications may suffer similarly. Does today's announcement mean Google has figured out how to fix this for Web, or are just ignoring it? Or worse — are they planning to 'boil the frog' with a sneaky transition into a world of a New Flash Player? > 1MB of Flutter runtime got you down? Don't worry, Flutter Player now ships with Chrome. This is possibly a very dark direction for the Web, of which Google is a powerful steward. [1] https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/12456#issuecomment-335051445 https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/12456#issuecomment...

michaelchisari 8y ago
I tested it, and the "Hello, World" example results in a 560k js package. Uglified and minified takes it down to around 480k. Gzip takes that to 140k and Brotli compression to 100k. That's a lot to bootstrap an app with, but it's not unreasonable, considering what most frameworks these days will start you with.
- leeoniya 8y ago
  it's not just what goes over the wire. that's 560k of JS that has to be parsed and compiled, which is a shitload.
  - michaelchisari 8y ago
    True, but (unfortunately) it's hardly an outlier in today's ecosystem.
    - zackbrown 8y ago
      Try importing `flutter/animation` — footprint goes WAY off the deep end. `animation.ddc.js` is 4.4MB alone (unminified), never mind the rest of the runtime AND userland application code. You can see this in the flutter_web/examples/gallery example. [`webdev build` failed for me in examples/gallery, so I'd love to see what a successfully minified version of that example looks like — I'm currently deeply skeptical.] Compared to React/Vue/Angular and friends, this appears to be a monstrous outlier.

gjmacd 8y ago

We need to learn yet another language (Dart)? No thanks.

michaelchisari 8y ago
It's a bloody simple language to learn if you already know one of the similar modern typed languages (Typescript, Swift, Kotlin, etc). You can honestly pick it up in a weekend, there's nothing particularly new or groundbreaking.
- cztomsik 8y ago
  language itself is never a problem, you can learn fortran too, but you'd be on your own with most of the tasks
- _eric 8y ago
  Agreed. I love Typescript and picking up Dart has been quiet easy. Of course there's much more than the language itself, but other than one detail or another, tha transition seems to be fairly easy.
- pacala 8y ago
  The language is easy. One can also learn English in 5 minutes: SUBJ-VERB-[JJ]*-OBJ, done! The library ecosystem and best practices on the other hand...
cztomsik 8y ago
Yeah, that's one of the 2 major concerns I have with flutter: - new lang, platform, libs, tools, everything, it's like let's just dump 20ys of what we already have (either javascript or java/kotlin) - excessive nesting (border, center, etc. it's much worse than html and I'd consider even that to be over what I'd like to have) BTW: I'm working on subset of react-native for desktop (not yet ready) https://github.com/cztomsik/stain/tree/master/src https://github.com/cztomsik/stain/tree/master/src
otobrglez 8y ago
Exactly. Why o why is this not written in a way to support TypeScript?

_eric 8y ago

Anyone using Flutter with windows 10? It's been a pain to get the emulators to work - having to changes some Bios config and all.

JohnTHaller 8y ago
I have Flutter up and running on Windows 10 with the virtual Android device connected up and running my simple apps I'm playing with.
- _eric 8y ago
  Are you using an Intel or AMD processor? Looks like some Bios config are specific to Intel.
  - ElCapitanMarkla 8y ago
    I gave up. I have to run a VirtualBox VM for my work which means I have to have HyperV disabled, which means the Android emulators don’t work... also tried the arm images but no cigar. I’m running a Ryzen CPU and I feel like that’s half the battle.
    - Marsymars 8y ago
      You could technically migrate your VirtualBox VMs to Hyper-V.
ericathegreat 8y ago
I found it very easy to get it up and running with Android, although to be fair I already had the Android emulators running from my foray into React Native. I expect getting iOS emulators running would be very hard on a non Apple platform though.

yesimahuman 8y ago

Flutter for Web is heavily reminiscent of Famous with its custom layout system and off-DOM rendering (or guessing DOM rendering support w/ CSS transforms of divs). To see, just view-source on the NYT demo. Quite divergent from the web platform in my opinion. The fact that they have to re-implement copy and paste (and, accessibility features!) further adds to that: https://medium.com/flutter-io/bringing-flutter-to-the-web-904de05f0df0 https://medium.com/flutter-io/bringing-flutter-to-the-web-90... Quite bizarre compared to the Chrome team "Use the Platform" messaging.

aerovistae 8y ago
God, I totally forgot about Famous. That was honestly one of the weirder things I’ve seen in my years of web development. Such a gorgeous website and yet I never really understood what they were trying to sell me on. So much marketing, such little end result....never went anywhere, never amounted to anything meaningful.
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  Apparently they're still a company, and still a lot of marketing with little end result: https://famous.co/ https://famous.co/
- Andrex 8y ago
  I think one of my first HN comments was meekly raising my hand and asking "OK, but what actually is this?" And getting quite a few (unexpected) upvotes, haha.
wstrange 8y ago
Web development with DOM, CSS, etc. is a morass of complexity. I'm really excited about a fresh approach to UI development. If they can pull it off, it is going to be very compelling. It is going to take an enormous amount of investment. Something like this could only be done by a "FAANG" size company.
- baybal2 8y ago

martzy13 8y ago

YACPF Yet Another Cross Platform Framework.

mixmastamyk 8y ago

Does the runtime work on Linux, i.e. Debian, Ubuntu, rather than ChromeOS?

Hixie 8y ago
(I'm the Flutter TL.) As a target platform or as a development platform? We don't support targeting Linux out of the box today, but we support Linux as a first-class development platform (it's what I use). That said, we do work on Linux, and if you're willing to do a bit of work, you can use it to write Linux apps. If you want to target X11, you'll need something like https://github.com/google/flutter-desktop-embedding https://github.com/google/flutter-desktop-embedding whereas if you want to target the hardware directly, you can do something like https://medium.com/flutter-io/flutter-on-raspberry-pi-mostly-from-scratch-2824c5e7dcb1 https://medium.com/flutter-io/flutter-on-raspberry-pi-mostly... .
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Interesting thanks. I'm looking to make something that can play media and animations would like it to run on beefy PCs as well as tablets if I can.
  - Hixie 8y ago
    We're not quite there yet unless you have a high tolerance for pain, but in the coming year we should in a good place to support that kind of thing.
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      pain: bugs or performance, or both? ;-)
      - Hixie 8y ago
        Neither. More like "figuring out your build system and how to integrate with the Flutter embedder API and how to hook all that up to the Dart compiler" and that kind of thing.

thijser 8y ago

Android adoption is slowly increasing, besides Google Ads, Alibaba and TikTok lite are also using Flutter at this moment: https://www.appbrain.com/stats/libraries/details/flutter/flutter https://www.appbrain.com/stats/libraries/details/flutter/flu...

otobrglez 8y ago

Love the concept, love the push. But to be sincere, won't touch it with a pole because of Dart. However,... Why o why is this thing not written with/for TypeScript?

skybrian 8y ago
They needed to work with a language team that's willing to modify the language to meet their requirements. Dart needed a killer app and was willing to work with them. The rest is history. JavaScript was invented for similar reasons (though by one person).
cageface 8y ago
Why does everything have to be in JS? I'm all for making JS better for the environments where you have no choice but honestly even with TypeScript it's still a pretty deeply flawed language. Any decent dev should be able to get up to speed in Dart in a week.
scotth 8y ago
I've been working with it for about 6 months, and TS a couple years before that. Dart is missing some things, but it's alright. The standard lib is great.
isoos 8y ago
I've worked with a few interns that were interviewed and tasked with small scripts and libs to be developed in Dart. Most of the "got" the language in a few minutes, and were productive in a few hours. (Disclaimer: they were all using the IntelliJ community version with the Dart plugin, but hey, tooling is there for a reason).
realusername 8y ago
I don't like Dart much to be honest as well, I've tried used it for about a week to try Flutter and the experience has been pretty bad. It feels kind of Java-like to me, which is really not a positive thing.

i18ns 8y ago

If flutter supports hotfix, it's perfect for engineering.

saagarjha 8y ago
Flutter can hot reload code, if that's what you're asking.
- i18ns 8y ago
  HotFix is a technique like code push, I had asked Flutter developer before. Flutter not support it right now.
  - sondh 8y ago
    The TL (he is on HN) said Code Push won't come anytime soon: https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/14330#issuecomment-485565194 https://github.com/flutter/flutter/issues/14330#issuecomment...

ergothus 8y ago

No one has (yet) mentioned the main reason I ignored Flutter when it initially came out and why I continue to have reluctance - It's google. They have a terrible track record with products AND with libraries. GWT? Dart (pre flutter)? NaCl? How about all those initial Angular devs? That's not a statement on the quality of the result (though some of those examples do indicate concerns), but if I'm not alone in avoiding a product that tackles a real industry need because of the source, that's a bad sign.

ehsankia 8y ago
GWT lived for over a decade (how many web libraries do you know that have survived for for that long?), AngularJS is still in maintenance mode, Dart died when it didn't get browser support and Typescript was obviously the better alternative. At the end of day though, I look at if Google itself is using it extensively, because that's when a library will have the best support/longevity.
- skybrian 8y ago
  Dart for the web may not be popular, but it's actively maintained [1] and being used by AdWords. There was some Dart web framework churn before they settled on AngularDart. [1] https://github.com/dart-lang/angular/commits/master https://github.com/dart-lang/angular/commits/master
- rpeden 8y ago
  GWT is still pretty alive, too. It hasn't seen a release in a while because the developers contributing to it have been working on making it work with Google's recently open sourced J2CL compiler. From what I've read, builds of though are available but no official release yet. I use React and Angular these days, but even back in 2010-2011 GWT felt pretty "done". At least for the things I needed to use it for. Starting a new project with it now probably wouldn't be a career-enhancing move, but it was a pretty decent way to build really complex web apps at a time when the JS ecosystem was a lot less mature than it is now.
mevile 8y ago
You didn't even mention the Closure library which was released and then practically abandoned. We invested so much into Closure where I worked, with the promise that this is what Google used internally, when suddenly Angular dropped out of Google and that sucked up all the oxygen in the room.

d0100 8y ago

Flash is back

ericathegreat 8y ago
And that's a genuinely great thing. Sure, by the end Flash was a pain in everyone's backside. But Flash was critical in the transformation from a text-only internet to one where we could watch videos, or play games, or chat to other people in real time. So much of our modern web standards were born from an attempt to make it possible to do the things that Flash taught us should be possible. If Flutter can be half as transformative as Flash was, then bring it on!

edem 8y ago

Does this work with a language which is not Dart?

mixedCase 8y ago

I cannot wait to switch from having to use a compile-to-JS toolchain to a compile-to-Dart-to-JS toolchain in order to get a language with a good type system. I'm hopeful Dart will get better given what I've seen and what a member of the Dart team mentioned in a thread a few weeks ago, but right now it's still nothing that gets close to the ancient ML. Would be nice if they learnt a few things from Facebook or Microsoft.

gwbas1c 8y ago
Look at Blazor. It's C# that compiles to Webassembly. None of the JS nonsense required!
- mixedCase 8y ago
  As of right now unfortunately only C, C++ and Rust work well as source languages for WASM. The payloads for .NET and other managed languages go through the roof; but as WASM gains features they're bound to become more viable.

sara7262 8y ago

Who is Satan and why there is evil Best video about this with proofs https://youtu.be/AWNM1-xYI5E https://youtu.be/AWNM1-xYI5E Funny monkey using phone in video Don't think just you can use phone See how he is searching and watching own monkey videos on phone http://bit.ly/2DS4p2R http://bit.ly/2DS4p2R See what happened when a lion was trying to kill man http://bit.ly/2H2zsKc http://bit.ly/2H2zsKc

pier25 8y ago

I love the idea of Flutter for mobile and desktop but I'm very skeptical about the web implementation. They will need to reimplement tons of stuff that are already included in the browsers and ship all that code with the application.

skybrian 8y ago
I look at it differently. When someone compiles a game to webassembly it's seen as an accomplishment, right? It doesn't mean you would normally write web apps this way, particularly if you're targeting consumers internationally and need web pages to load fast. But being able to make a desktop or mobile app work in a browser should be useful, particularly for businesses. Sometimes you're not targeting the whole world and can assume users are office workers who have a reasonably fast desktop-class computer and a decent network connection. (Or if they're away from the office, they've already installed the mobile app.) Some markets are more sensitive to download size than others and you need to understand your users to know what you can get away with.
- pier25 8y ago
  > When someone compiles a game to webassembly it's seen as an accomplishment, right? Yes, but browsers do not have game engine APIs. They do however have a layout engine, text editing and rendering, accessibility features, and a very long etc. Basically anything you need to make an app with text, images, buttons, etc. Don't me wrong, I'm sure Flutter for the web is a technical marvel. > Some markets are more sensitive to download size than others and you need to understand your users to know what you can get away with. So you are arguing that Flutter for the web is a nice bonus you get but not really intended to be a general use case web dev framework. If this is the case, it seems the Flutter team is missing a huge opportunity by not being a truly universal UI toolkit which it could be if it used the DOM instead of reimplementing everything.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    I don't know what it's intended for or who will find it useful. Just saying that it's not a binary choice (either useful or useless for everyone).

Animats 8y ago

Does it use material design?

saagarjha 8y ago
It can, if you theme it that way.

Andrex 8y ago

This may be a silly question, but for any Flutter folks here, are there any plans for WebAssembly or is that putting the cart before the horse?

richarddddd 8y ago

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ww520 8y ago

Would Flutter be good for cross platform game development? Or better stick with Unreal Dev Kit?

rhokstar 8y ago
For now, Unreal. Flutter at this stage doesn't have support for 3D via OpenGL ES or similar. Heavily focused on 2D only.
Lionga 8y ago
For 2D it is good, for 3D not

craftoman 8y ago

Question: Should I start experimenting universal apps with .NET or Flutter and what if Google abandon the whole project in the next few years?

gdsdfe 8y ago

Wow they've doubled down on Flutter ... Hmm better check it out

xparco 8y ago

Flutter sucks because of f nested hell

sandGorgon 8y ago

Can someone from the Google team comment on what's going on - https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/kotlin-is-now-googles-preferred-language-for-android-app-development/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/kotlin-is-now-googles-pref... >Android development will become increasingly Kotlin-first,” Google writes in today’s announcement https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/google-launches-jetpack-compose-an-open-source-kotlin-based-ui-development-toolkit/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/07/google-launches-jetpack-co... >Google today announced the first preview of Jetpack Compose, a new open-source UI toolkit for Kotlin developers who want to use a reactive programming model similar to React Native and Vue.js. This is massively confusing. Do we invest in Kotlin ...or do we invest in Dart ? Remember I'm talking about developing nations like India - where startups like ours invest in training college graduates . These guys can't afford 10$ courses on udacity and Coursera. But even if it was not India, having this parallel signalling for Android based startups is very confusing. Atleast Apple was very clear about Swift . Where will Android be in 2 years : Dart or Kotlin ?

seabrookmx 8y ago
There's been activity porting the Android Java components to Fuschia. I have no inside information (not a Googler) but that leads me to believe that if Fuschia becomes the next mobile OS from Google it will support both. So same goes for Android I would assume. Why does an OS need to have a single stack? You can write desktop apps in a zillion different languages and Frameworks after all.
- chupasaurus 8y ago
  s/Fuschia/Fuchsia/ And also it hints that you don't know what are you writing about. > You can write desktop apps in a zillion different languages and Frameworks after all. You can but the portability would be an issue. Each major OS has their own set of API/ABI, vastly different from each other, and Fuchsia isn't an exemption. You can write with QT for desktops but it wouldn't work on mobiles, you can write for Electron/CEH but lose performance and still have to do a lot of trickery, and so on.
  - 8y ago

adrianlmm 8y ago

It doesn't work on Edge nice job Google. https://imgur.com/a/QhIzx4e https://imgur.com/a/QhIzx4e

qwerty456127 8y ago

The last post on desktop Flutter said it was going to change a lot. Is this time over?

qwerty456127 8y ago
It seems like nothing has changed. The repository wiki still says "The current Linux shell is a GLFW placeholder, to allow early experimentation... Expect the APIs for the final shell to be radically different from the current implementation."

carmate383 8y ago

Goodbye React. You were good to no-one.

fxfan 8y ago

Nobody should be using a tool that doesn't make money for google without too many indirections.

codedokode 8y ago

It is interesting that they have a special, third-party mirror for China: [1] Also, I don't like Dart after I used a site built with it by Google. As far as I remember, it was a Doubleclick for publishers or something ad-related. It was very slow, even in Chromium, all animations were laggy, and in Developer Tools I saw that it loaded megabytes of JS, compiled from Dart code. For example, a "What's new" widget was implemented as a separate app and loaded several megabytes of code including its own copy of a standard library. I would recommend against using Dart for Web sites. [1] https://flutter.dev/community/china https://flutter.dev/community/china

pjmlp 8y ago

> UI-as-code language features. An euphemism for "we failed to provide a good UI designer experience".

t3hprofit 8y ago

Hey! Just what we need, another UI framework! oh...wait. no we don't.

Illniyar 8y ago

This is the example flutter app for the web -https://www.nytimes.com/games/prototype/kenken#/ https://www.nytimes.com/games/prototype/kenken#/ This is flash. You can't do anything in it that fills like the web - no copy paste, right clicking causes things to happen. I don't expect games like this to have links and proper bookmarkable urls, but I doubt it'll work as expected if it did. This is the epitome of the problem with flutter - it re-implements the UI, creating an experience that is just close enough but not good enough. And no matter how many smart people and an insane amount of resources they put into it, it'll never be good enough. There's a reason why flash died out, and it's not only apple. It was dropped for making interactive website long before apple killed it - it doesn't work well with the web.

akadeb 8y ago
Thanks for sharing this link. I have been an avid Sudoku fan and am really glad I found Ken-Ken
Apocryphon 8y ago
I’m not convinced that Flutter needs to beat native to survive- it just needs to be better than React Native, Xamarin, and PWAs.
- 076ae80a-3c97-4 8y ago
  Which is going to be hard. Xamarin these days is really nice to work with.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    Perhaps, but for whatever reason React Native seems to still dwarf it. Maybe the companies that tend to churn out popular mobile apps just don’t invest in .NET?
    - k__ 8y ago
      React-Native has two significant pros that Flutter doesn't have. Native UI. I heard multiple times now that Flutter drains the battery rather quickly because it doesn't use the highly optimized native UI elements. JavaScript. There are more JavaScript developers out there than .NET ones. Also, the JS devs are much cheaper. Another interesting pro is, you can use RN to develop basically everywhere. Expo (a RN framework) announced Web support, so you get Android, iOS, and Web out of the box. Microsoft announced UWP support and rewrote react-native-windows.

CapsAdmin 8y ago

The lack of accessibility sucks, but there's a part of me wondering why we don't have accessibility tools that don't rely on us tagging images and giving us the ability to navigate the layout of a page. Wouldn't tools that do text and image recognition based on screen selection, arrow keys that move to the center of the nearest shape, etc. be a lot more useful? Like a Google lens for desktop. Text selection is 100% reliable, but being able to get the text and layout from any arbitrary image and be able to navigate that would help those who struggle with vision a lot more, even if it's only 85% reliable.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
Once you're at the level of OCRing text from screen, it becomes a general-AI-complete problem. See e.g. how bad OCR still is for books, and there you can still make good assumptions about the shape and meaning of text (sentences, paragraphs, chapters). With arbitrary UIs, you have to recognize what each block of pixels means, and that's the GAI-complete problem at which even humans fail (that's why the UI/UX/HCI fields exist).

LyalinDotCom 8y ago

Great to see the Flutter dev team jump in here to answer questions. Kudos on that and congrats on release!

rameshvel 8y ago

This is great news for those investing in Flutter. But from the looks of it, it seems like a Front end framework (AKA client-side rendering). Is there a plan to implement a web framework that can render Server Side Pages. Since it's developed in Dart. Like how next.js took react and implemented an isomorphic rendering. I don't think any reason not doing it. That's a win-win. I would really give it a shot if they can do that. Anyone from Flutter dev got a comment??

ramon 8y ago

These frameworks are starting to get too complex that is why the sizes are huge. I liked that pika concept of not using webpack anymore. I think the future of the mother of frameworks is to o stop compiling in webpack!

bubblewrap 8y ago

How does Dart compare to Kotlin? I was planning on learning Kotlin, hoping to use it for server side development as well. But somehow now I have a feeling that developing mobile flutter apps might be more pleasant (pure feelings not based on any real data). Does Dart offer good performance, asynchronous IO and all those things?

dfischer 8y ago

Is the intention for flutter for web to replace angular dart?

jbverschoor 8y ago

Nice and all, but as it's google... When will it be abandonded?

k__ 8y ago

Because some people asked when to use Flutter instead of something like React-Native. Complex UI. If you got a system with complex UI, like Photoshop, Maya or Logic, you want it to look the same on all platforms. Sure, it won't adhere 100% to the platforms idiosyncracies, but re-designing it forever platform isn't an option. It's too expensive and people already poured time into learning the UI and just want it to work the same when they changed platforms.

foobarbazetc 8y ago

Flutter = new Flash. :)

tobiaswk 8y ago

I simply love Flutter for Android and iOS development and have been using it since alpha. I haven't tried the web application part; I'm pretty sure I never will. Here's my opinion. I've created several apps with Flutter and every time I enjoy it. The UI is easy to make beautiful and the resulting code easy to read. It feels like all what the current Android SDK is missing. The current Android SDK is old and quite frankly painfull to work with. You just can't create beautiful apps with ease; it's always a hassle. It's also messy and not easy to read the resulting code. The way the whole way the framework is structured entails ugly code in my opinion. This all becomes evident when you use different apps on Google Play. You get the sense that every app reinvented their UI; there is no real UI continuity. Google became a freeloader after JetBrains created Kotlin and marketed it will. The thing is Kotlin made just a little better; in terms of boilerplate stuff; the framework I still hate compared to Flutter. What I really like about flutter is the framework and “it’s all a widget” idea. You can basically do crazy things in UI with ease and on the other hand just use the standard UI components with a great result. As an example I've created an alternative to Nissan's Connect EV app. It's basically a way to control and monitor your electric vehicle from Nissan. The official app is I’m very disappointed by; it’s slow and full of wrong decisions. My alternative is called "My Leaf" and its available on Google Play and the App Store; https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dk.kjeldsen.carwingsflutter https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dk.kjeldsen.ca... https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/my-leaf-for-nissan-ev/id1436701776 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/my-leaf-for-nissan-ev/id1436... It's completely open source.

Kaotique 8y ago

Frameworks like this have come and gone in the last 10 years. I'm not convinced that using this will save you time in the long run. You need to invest a ton of time learning the ins and outs of these frameworks to get stuff done. There are always limitations compared to real native solutions. I think the time is wiser spend understanding the iOS and Android platforms itself. There is also a big chance that Facebook, Google or whoever will drop their project at some point leaving you hanging and having to rewrite everything again to native or the next multiplatform framework.

Gilbertman 8y ago

After read all these comments, if there's an idiom I can put, hater is gonna hate.

jillesvangurp 8y ago

It feels wrong architecturally for Google to be pushing this right now: 1) Dart was intended as a Java like language and is inferior to Kotlin, a language they just endorsed on Android yesterday. Dart feels like a step back, not forward. The message is confusing from Google on this front. They have a huge Kotlin developer community already. Why push Dart at all? 2) World + dog is moving towards compiling Kotlin and many other languages to web assembly as well as native. Cross compiling Dart to javascript was maybe a valid choice a few years ago but not in 2019. See e.g. Rust roadmap for this year, .Net 5.0 agenda for MS, Kotlin Native, etc. 3) LLVM seems to be the toolchain of choice for this type of stuff to happen. Go and Kotlin + WASM would be very valid choices for Google to prioritize on this platform. 4) In a browser you need to be driving the DOM to look and feel like a proper web application. If you abandon that notion, you might as well grab something like QT or some other UI toolkit and use that. My recommendation would be for Google to untangle flutter from Dart and just retire that and focus on WASM and native based runtimes only. That's going to take time and in my view it's inevitable that whatever they are pushing right now is ultimately going to be deprecated in favor of something like that.

edtechdev 8y ago
Dart was originally meant to be a superior alternative to JavaScript. They originally wanted native Dart support in the browser (dartium) just like there is native JavaScript support. Kotlin was/is meant to be a superior alternative to Java. Java != JavaScript Flutter I'd say is more like a successor to Flash. Dart is now relegated primarily to being Flutter's ActionScript.
- jillesvangurp 8y ago
  Either way, it feels like step back. Kotlin compiles quite nicely to javascript as well.
munificent 8y ago
If you just look at the languages, Kotlin has a lot of nice features that Dart doesn't currently have. Non-nullable types, extension methods, and data classes are on the top of my mind. If you look at Kotlin and Dart as implementations, then there are differences under the hood. Kotlin is deeply married to the JVM. That has a lot of obvious pros: you can seamlessly interop with your existing Java code, reuse the existing JVM ecosystem, and incrementally migrate your code to Kotlin a file at a time. There are trade-offs to this, though. Kotlin fundamentally doesn't own its runtime. It gets the JVM for free, but anything the JVM lacks, it has little easy way to acquire. Dart is both its own language, and its own ecosystem and runtime. This means the adoption cost is higher, and our growth has been slower. We had to build more from scratch. But the return on investment is that we have a runtime that is deeply tuned for Dart and the needs of our users. For example: * Our garbage collector is tuned for the frequently-allocated but short-lived objects that get constructed every frame by a reactive framework. * When you deploy your app, we compile your Dart code ahead of time, all the way to machine code, statically link in the runtime, and give you a standalone native executable. Our deployment model is closer to C/C++ than to Java or C#. * Our runtime object representation faithfully understands the full language. For example, there's no type erasure, and generics are represented at runtime. You can ask a list if it's a List<int> or List<Object> at runtime and it will tell you true. * We can expose interesting debugging, profiling, and other diagnostic hooks from the runtime to tools. For example, the Flutter Inspector [0] will show you the bounding boxes of every widget on screen from the running app on your device. Touching one navigates your IDE to the corresponding source code. We can do that because we have the ability to plumb things all the way through the IDE, parser, compiler, runtime, and debugger, because it's all a custom stack. * Likewise, the near-instant hot reload stuff we do works because the language design, Flutter framework design, IDE integration, compiler, and runtime all work in concert to enable that. Even non-obvious things like the fact that static fields are lazily initialized in Dart make this stuff easier. Of course, the Kotlin+JVM advantages are real too. It's a question of which trade-offs are right for you today, and tomorrow. One thing I'm particularly excited about right now with Dart is that we're in a much better places to evolve the language quickly now that we've moved to 2.0, a full static type system, and a shared front end. Right now, we're implementing non-nullable types. Ours will be fully sound, unlike in Kotlin and TypeScript, because they have to handle values flowing in through interop. We're also implementing extension methods. I'm hoping we can do something a la data classes not too long after. If we pull that off, I hope users will feel that we're at parity at the language level and then it becomes more a question of which tools are the best ones for your need. [0]: https://flutter.dev/docs/development/tools/inspector https://flutter.dev/docs/development/tools/inspector

wpdev_63 8y ago

i just wished they used kotlin... even if they targeted the llvm. it's a great language with every feature under the sun - why reinvent the wheel?

lcswillems 7y ago

Am I right if I assume that Flutter for web will not be SEO friendly?