27 ms·

Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

460 points by omnibrain 7y ago

Illniyar 7y ago
Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    Nice joke (apparently bad taste for the HN crowd). That said is C# really great ? come on .. they have F#, and F > C. QED
    - marak830 7y ago
      Honestly I'm not joking, but I am a casual coder. I have only learnt what I need to do, to do certain things. Which compared to most here isn't that much. (See my other responses, I'd actually love some input there, just wish I had more time to learn) Edit: as to the reference to the last part of your comment, I have only been using what I knew to do the job I needed, I'm not a full time coder so I can't search the latest and greatest, another reason I picked this thread to ask :-)
      - agumonkey 7y ago
        What do you mean ? you only learned C# so you could work and have no time to learn things like F# ?
        marak830 7y ago
        (you're correct to an extent) I learnt c# to do what I wanted in my free time, I haven't had time to look into alternatives. C# does what I need, and I either work out how to do what I need with that, or I can't do it (I'm not a full time coder, so I don't have time to research, learn and recode what I have done to something new)
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler. And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available. And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Which platform doesn’t have a C# compiler that matters?
      - sebazzz 7y ago
        Java cards
        realusername 7y ago
        Java cards use a very limited version of Java, I would not put it in the same category. You can't just take your average random java code and run it on a java card.
        scarface74 7y ago
        Well seeing that Java Cards don’t even run the full version of Java.....
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Yeah, but they surely don't run any version of .NET, not even an incomplete one.
        scarface74 7y ago
        So it’s really not running Java as defined by the specification...
        7y ago
  - marak830 7y ago
    hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - dtech 7y ago
      The .NET ecosystem is an order of magnitude smaller than the JVM ecosystem. Up until ~3 years¹ ago C#/.NET also meant a fully Microsoft and Windows environment for all practical purposes². This is changing and Microsoft seems to be embracing open source and Linux, but it takes time for a 20 year old ecosystem to fully make the transition. ¹ The story is Steve Balmer was very anti-open source and forbade most interop or support for Linux, so this only could start changing when he left in 2014. ² You always had Mono with is why Unity and GNOME could also use C#, but is was very niche outside of Unity.
      - inapis 7y ago
        That fully Microsoft and windows stack has had ripple effects. At least from my perspective in South Asia. First the price was a deal breaker. Second, people who started with C# quickly found their only employment opportunities to be at large companies. Those who started with Java/Node/Ruby had a much wider array to choose from. Third, when people jumped to start their own companies, Java/Node/Ruby/Python/Go won by a large margin. Startups rarely had the cash to spare for Microsoft stack and MS stack guys had to change their skill sets which is a painful endeavour in and of itself. Fourth, after some time people, who had been in the market for years, started discouraging younger devs to committing exclusively to a full MS stack. People rather interpreted it as dumping the MS stack. In my batch, only a dozen or so people were interested in pursuing C#/.Net. By the time we graduated only one person was still pursuing that stack. TLDR; Price was a big factor which only large companies could afford. Not everyone can be employed by large companies. This had a lot of secondary effects.
  - james_s_tayler 7y ago
    I switched to C# late last year. Oracle is just too much baggage to have hanging around when thinking about your career / future for me. Really didn't like the direction they are taking things when they announced their new release train and licencing model. Compared to that Microsoft have done an about face in recent years with a commitment to open source and first-class support for Linux and revamping their core offering with .NET Core. It's been a mostly smooth transition.
  - threeseed 7y ago
    You can't be serious. JVM is still the best platform for any type of back-end application. It has the widest array of libraries, is proven to run on any type of hardware and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance. .Net is a great platform and all but it still hasn't done enough to really merit switching teams. Especially when you have Scala, Kotlin, Clojure etc to pick from.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances. But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions? For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.
      - sigzero 7y ago
        For you what you use Java for it doesn't need to come "standard". I am not sure why Python is mentioned but it isn't close to a replacement.
        scarface74 7y ago
        The parent post said “and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance”. That is not true. I brought up Python as an example of a language that does come “standard” on “cloud instances”(and MacOS) but it’s an older version. Most people wouldn’t count on the bundled version of either.
      - fuck_google 7y ago
        Windows based EC2 instances represent maybe 10 % of all EC2 instances.
        scarface74 7y ago
        https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ We run nearly 2x more Windows Server instances than the next largest cloud provider, according to an IDC report.
  - cmiles74 7y ago
    I think every Java developer should be familiar with C# and dotNet Core. There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up.
    - cesarb 7y ago
      > There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up. Could you recommend good tutorials/manuals for developers with Java experience to learn C# (preferably without having to install Windows)?
      - jayd16 7y ago
        Download Jetbrain's Rider IDE and I'm pretty sure it'll get you hacking away in no time.
      - cutler 7y ago
        If you're looking to get into C# 8.0 you're out of luck if using OS X. Visual Studio 2019 for Mac offers .Net Core 3.0 as an option if you have it installed but Mono hasn't caught up with C# 8.0 so isn't available. So much for cross-platform development - it seems OS X is still an afterthought.
        philliphaydon 7y ago
        What would you need mono for? If you’re using .net core...
        cutler 7y ago
        Download Visual Studio for Mac 2019 and you won't find C# 8.0 listed under the project's language options. I'm referring to the Mac here where I understood Mono is still the way .Net Core is implemented.
        jongalloway2 7y ago
        Why? On OSX, just use Visual Studio Code and .NET Core: https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and-net-core-3-0 https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and...
- smadge 7y ago
  I never used a flow blown Java EE web application server, but the various APIs I used like JDBC, JAX-RS, and JPA were generally well thought out and pleasant enough to work with. It would be a shame if these interfaces/specifications became proprietary.
  - based2 7y ago
    These specs are reuse in MicroProfile: https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation
  - mbell 7y ago
    Without knowing it you have cherry picked possibly the only good parts of Java EE. The rest that constitute a 'full blown' Java EE stack are horrific disasters (JSF, EJB, etc).
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - floriol 7y ago
      Would you mind showing any platform's solution to the problems that java EE solves? I have yet to see any competitor technology solve transaction management as elegantly as EJB's does.
- tootie 7y ago
  Any organization that bought into JEE is probably willing to pay Oracle's license fees. That being said, I've literally never seen an org that preferred JEE to Spring and that includes numerous massive enterprises.
  - le-mark 7y ago
    Spring is built on the good parts of JEE; servlet api, jdbc, etc.. so it's not immune to churn in this area.
    - jacques_chester 7y ago
      A lot of the good parts of the JEE were inspired by Spring, which can go ahead with ideas without needing to go through the JCP. There's a cyclical relationship between them. Disclosure: I work for Pivotal, we sponsor Spring.
      - tootie 7y ago
        In the early 2000s I did a lot of work with ATG Dynamo which was a proprietary Java app server. It was light years ahead of the top competitors (WebLogic or WebSphere back then). It had dependency injection, clear separation of logic and UI, a handy runtime inspector GUI that let you inspect the state of all your container-managed objects including user sessions i an real-time and modify them. The original J2EE borrowed heavily from it and ruined it.
sheepdestroyer 7y ago
Oracle never fails to show off how evil they are.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  While there is some truth to it,they did more research for Java than Sun ever did, and no one else cared to buy Sun.
  - rbanffy 7y ago
    That's, sadly, true. At the time of acquisition, Sun was only a shadow of its former glory...
    - DonHopkins 7y ago
      It all started circling the drain when they merged SunOS with System V. Solaris: So bad I left the company.
      - rbanffy 7y ago
        They still did a ton of cool stuff after that. It was under Jonathan Schwartz that the lack of direction and the overwhelming confusion became painfully obvious, not knowing whether it was a software company trying to profit from and compete against free (as in beer) software, a hardware company narrowing its own niche at the very top or... something totally different. I kept a couple Type 7 keyboards.
  - bharatm 7y ago
    They did research not because they want to support Java community, but because they want to make gains from making it proprietary.
    - repolfx 7y ago
      Then why is their research open source? GraalVM is on github.
DonHopkins 7y ago
>But once Eclipse products would be not vendor-neutral anymore, the EF’s tax exemption might become void, which would mean a financial fiasco, or possibly mean the end of the organization as a hole. I think the problem is Oracle's a-hole, in this situation.
- masklinn 7y ago
  Do not anthropomorphise the lawnmower.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Point taken. But also: Do not work for, do business with, depend on, or attempt to negotiate with the lawnmower, either!
  - DangitBobby 7y ago
    It's not a lawnmower. It's an organization made if people, and it's responsible for it's actions.
    - DonHopkins 7y ago
      Here's the full reference -- the point is that Oracle's a-hole is Larry Ellison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc "As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle. And I gotta say, as someone who has seen that complexity for my entire life, it's very hard to get used to that idea. It's like, 'surely this is more complicated!' but it's like: Wow, this is really simple! This company is very straightforward, in its defense. This company is about one man, his alter-ego, and what he wants to inflict upon humanity -- that's it! ...Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money. Yeah... you talk to Oracle, it's like, 'no, we don't fucking make dreams happen -- we make money!' ...You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle." -- Bryan Cantrill
hajderr 7y ago
heads over to Python :)
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Good luck with the performance over there.
  - chpmrc 7y ago
    Before the language becomes a performance bottleneck there is so much stuff to consider that it quickly becomes clear how the choice of language doesn't really make a difference, except in special cases such as embedded systems.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      A language that requires C for anything regarding performance is only useful for scripting and learning to program.
      - mhuffman 7y ago
        I mean, what do you think the Java VM is written in?
        threeseed 7y ago
        It's completely irrelevant. Because as a developer I am exclusively writing in a language that sits on top of the JVM. I don't ever need to write in the language that the JVM itself written in.
        nosianu 7y ago
        You understand the the language your platform is written in and the language you as a developer write programs for the platform in are two completely different things?
        pjmlp 7y ago
raquo 7y ago
(Not an expert on all the Java nomenclature / standards / politics) What does Eclipse foundation have to do with Java EE? Does this news sabotage their use of OpenJ9 somehow?
- aurora72 7y ago
  After Java SE has become proprietary-like software, it was reported that Java EE division would be handed to the Eclipse Foundation. And that was good news because it meant that Java EE would be managed independently from Oracle but now we see that Oracle wants to make Java EE dependent on themselves, and that is bad news :::
mjw1007 7y ago
« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle are taking note. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members/ https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members/
- dtech 7y ago
  For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against Hungary, and Hungary all sanctions against Poland.
  - mjw1007 7y ago
    That too, but I fear there are likely to be ways a hostile director could cause serious trouble even without a unanimous vote requirement.
  - james_s_tayler 7y ago
    Yeah unanimous is ironic in that actually a single actor controls the outcome.
  - stereo 7y ago
    It’s an old Polish tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    Hungary and Poland aren't the first to abuse the unanimous-1 veto. The Netherlands always vetos Romania's application to enter the Schengen zone as Romania's harbors to the Black Sea will provide cheaper alternatives for import of goods to the Dutch ones.
nbevans 7y ago
.NET Core will welcome this round of Java orphans with open arms.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  First it needs to sort out its history of not being compatible with all .NET Framework libraries.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    The world is moving on from .Net Framework - including Microsoft. .Net Framework is definitely the new COBOL. It’s basically in maintenance mode. Any company would be crazy to start a new greenfield project using .Net Framework and should have some type of plan to move to Core. https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2018/10/10/net-keynote.aspx?m=1 https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2018/10/10/net-key... The presenters said it will still be released with Windows, as it's a component of Windows itself, so it will be supported for the lifetime of Windows. Microsoft is just going to be making highly compatible targeted improvements to .NET Framework after version 4. So you shouldn't feel pressured to move off .NET Framework, but just know that it's going to be much more highly targeted compatible fixes kind of going forward and we recommend that all new development that you start on .NET is on .NET Core if possible
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      I know what Microsoft wants, I spend most of my time as .NET dev. That doesn't change the fact that many libs don't run on .NET Core, or outside Windows for that matter, specially the ones that depend on C++/CLI.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        So instead of tying your horse to one dead end platform - .Net Framework - you’re okay with tying your horse to two? It was clear that C++/CLI was a dead end a decade ago. When Microsoft mentions thier “strategies” for various .Net languages, you notice which one is missing? https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/the-net-language-strategy/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/the-net-language-strat... I’m very much a .Net fan but it makes about as much since as a developer to tie your fate to .Net framework or Windows only development in general in 2019 as it did for all of the companies not to move from VB6 after .Net was the future. Even Azure host more Linux VMs than Windows.
vfc1 7y ago
The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found that Spring was a much better framework than Java EE, and have used it in most projects I've worked. Oracle did not take a note from the Microsoft book and is really behaving that an evil corporate overlord. It's clear at this stage that they bought Sun in order to slowly turn Java proprietary, and charge billions to the companies that are now fully Java-based for the next few decades. I'm glad I saw the writing on the wall and switched, but the problem is that Java is still being taught a lot at schools, and school programs especially universities are hard to adapt and only change every 4-5 years or so.
- walkingolof 7y ago
  Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment, but the situation is largely misrepresented. Ref: - https://openjdk.java.net/projects/valhalla/ https://openjdk.java.net/projects/valhalla/ - https://www.graalvm.org https://www.graalvm.org - https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main - https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/shenandoah/Main https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/shenandoah/Main
  - acqq 7y ago
    > Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? E.g. graalvm is directly Oracle's, or am I missing something? Specifically, what is preventing any of the Java-related things people use now (including those that you mention) to end like the OP is describing? Asking as somebody outside of that world, but interested "how much it's worth considering" under the given circumstances (Oracle being Oracle, demanding a lot of money for everything Oracle's that some company could use, and owning a lot of that "world"). Where are the boundaries? What is safe and outside of reach of Oracle? E.g. what is safe for a small company to use?
josefx 7y ago
> the worst case possible, as it not only voids the “WORA” (Write Once Run Anywhere) principle, it simply won’t happen in reality: After 18 months virtually no application vendor really wants to spend the time and money to update all customers with recompiled versions just for the sake of a renamed platform with a dubios future. WORA was never perfect, I would be surprised if there was even a single JRE release that didn't note a breaking change in its release notes. So vendors should have a process to update their releases just for that already in place. > The future is unclear because Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. They have no rules to out board members acting in bad faith?
- djakjxnanjak 7y ago
  If they have such rules, I wonder how many votes they require to use...
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Oracle would block any rules against acting in bad faith, or simply not follow them.
wangii 7y ago
how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think. I think Eclipse Foundation is f*cked, not by Oracle but its bureaucracy, and inability to reinvent itself.
- cesarb 7y ago
  > how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think. Java has reflection, so classes can be loaded by name at runtime (and the name might have come from a XML file somewhere, or be the result of string concatenation); also, the name of a class can be easily obtained so code can depend on that (for instance, a logging configuration XML file). That's before considering that some libraries generate classes on the fly (by dynamically generating and loading bytecode, which include class names).
k__ 7y ago
Oracle is a disease. Everywhere it spreads things get bad :/
bborud 7y ago
Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.
  - tatersolid 7y ago
    The most valuable corporation in the world as of this date uses zero Java for anything “core”. Anecdotally, nearly every CIO/CTO I’ve encountered in the last few sees Oracle as a huge risk. Most particularly with regards to databases, which are even sticker than applications which have shorter life cycles.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      You mean the servers Apple has running on WebObjects, JEE and Clojure for iTunes, Apple Maps and their iCloud?
      - scarface74 7y ago
        iTunes is based on a 17 year old code base with a framework that hasn’t been updated in a decade. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Java. Seeing that Apple started a project to rewrite Maps back in 2014, hopefully they didn’t decide to rewrite it using WebObjects (https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling-the-backend-for-its-maps-service-hints-at-big-plans-to-come/amp/ https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling...)
19870213 7y ago
I propose to mimic the intended move of the Indonesian government to move the capitol from Java to Borneo by forking OpenJDK/Java to OpenBDK/Borneo. If Oracle wants to keep the Java(tm) trademark, they can keep it.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Are you going to replace the 99% OpenJDK developers that are on Oracle's paycheck as well?
  - sangnoir 7y ago
    Yes. The Java ecosystem is far larger than Oracle. Java can absolutely thrive if Oracle were to cease to exist tomorrow, or if everyone else[1] decides to move to a fork. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827875
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Again, where are those contributors? Companies that just repackage Oracle's work don't count.
      - jacques_chester 7y ago
        Pivotal is hiring for JDK/JVM development. Worldwide. If you're at Oracle and you want out, drop me a line or do a search for "JDK" at https://pivotal.io/careers/openings https://pivotal.io/careers/openings Several companies outside Oracle already employ JDK folks (IBM, for example). I expect that increasingly our partners and competitors will do the same.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        So which JEPs on OpenJDK are being done by Pivotal? I fail to find them. IBM does minor contributions to Java, and mainly follows the language specification non their own JVMs. IBM was also the only company that bothered to make an initial proposal to acquire Sun, but withdrew it after Oracle's.
dtech 7y ago
> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift. This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Microsofts: Groovy, Scala and Clojure.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  And all of them have a lot of work to catch up with 25 years of market experience.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. How will these languages ever catch up with innovations like JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces?
    - coldtea 7y ago
      >Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. 1994? We still depend on tons of features, infrastructure, and techniques developed in the 60s and 70s. Heck, most of what the JS world considers "state of the art" was already available in 70s languages. As for the snark, first, the innovations the parents refers to is not "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces", but stuff like rock-solid GCs, tooling, and so on. And even techniques on the level of "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces" are only going to be resold to several other languages. The JS worlds keeps on piling Java (or older) techniques and syntax. Heck, they just re-invented the "private instance variables" (with an ugly hash syntax) on their latest efforts...
      - scarface74 7y ago
        The contention was that other languages had a “lot to catch up” with Java because it’s been around for 25 years. So how haven’t other statically typed languages “caught up”? In fact, Java is so far behind C# with true Generics, LINQ - not the syntax the entire linq expressions -> expression trees -> runtime providers that can parse the trees and translate it to a destination syntax, etc. it’s laughable. Can anyone say honestly that Oracle has been a good steward over Java or that it has improved as fast as any modern popular language? And the “tooling” around Java is the main reason that when I had a choice between C# and Java in the mid 2000s, I chose C#. Heck, the Visual Studio 97 was better than most Java tooling is today. Yeah I played around with the early VB like Java IDEs like JBuildsr. Java’s IDE’s have never been strong points. Neither have the XML is king mindset.
based2 7y ago
I bet Oracle will have its MS pivot moment, sooner that we think, to face AWS, PostgreSQL, IBM/Red Hat, Pivotal Spring offers... But it was a lot of time wasted: Apache Harmony/Java LibreOffice/OpenOffice MariaDB/MySQL Jenkins/Hudson now Eclipse/Java Right now, they are in sales hurry mode, calling at all occasions technical contacts each time you create a new account to download something on their web site... ... https://netbeans.apache.org/ https://netbeans.apache.org/ https://cloud.oracle.com/containers/kubernetes-engine https://cloud.oracle.com/containers/kubernetes-engine ... In O/WebLogic, javax.* imports are by default private. Open9J vs Graal https://github.com/eclipse/omr/issues/1118 https://github.com/eclipse/omr/issues/1118
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- based2 7y ago
  forgot Iluminos/OpenSolaris story - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc#t=33m0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc#t=33m0s https://blogs.eclipse.org/post/mike-milinkovich/update-jakarta-ee-rights-java-trademarks https://blogs.eclipse.org/post/mike-milinkovich/update-jakar... Note: Oracle ECM, WebCenter Content has no simple Virtual Document solution.
rafaelturk 7y ago
We all love Java, however we need to decouple the Language from the ecosystem that the new owner of Java, Oracle, wants to enforce upon customers. Oracle made a clear business decision and will go forward squeeze every single dollar they possible can thru legal means, not from innovation or services.
- repolfx 7y ago
  How are they squeezing dollars here? They don't seem to be demanding payment, or at least not directly. I read the board notes. This appears to be a disagreement about trademarks and compatibility licensing. To be called "Java" you need to be compatible with the Java specs, and also have a trademark license. That's how they enforce that the platform can be reimplemented but it's seamless to users. Seems Eclipse Foundation doesn't like that.
znpy 7y ago
Dumb question... Wouldn't it be possible to fork the namespace to something like javax -> jawax (or java->borneo as someone suggested) and then patch the JVM to alias the javax package to the would-be jawax package (or borneox or whatever) ?
- ZiiS 7y ago
  Technically easy, but thought to expose that new JVM legally.
- needusername 7y ago
  You would probably rather write a JVM agent that changes the class references. Eclipse will almost surely fork the namespace to something jakarta related.
  - needusername 7y ago
    Which turns to to be quite easy: https://twitter.com/rafaelcodes/status/1125032183167688706 https://twitter.com/rafaelcodes/status/1125032183167688706
- fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
  The other option is a maven plugin that lets you rename packages and then someone posts a list of rules on a StackOverflow question for renaming the new namespaces to the old ones: that way, no JDK distributor is distributing software that understands the old package names.
- theandrewbailey 7y ago
  Maybe have a more sensible namespace convention. Presently, for any given API, it's a toss up of whether it's under javax.* or java.*, with no rhyme or reason.
ausjke 7y ago
Oracle is a cancer. Android may get infected one day which is worrisome. What about MySQL. Google should have bought Sun in the first place, unfortunately all they could see is its searching with ads. Google better buy Canonical now before Oracle or other evils do it.
- theandrewbailey 7y ago
  If anyone buys Canonical, I'm betting on Microsoft.
sheeshkebab 7y ago
If I understand correctly, OpenJDK is licensed under GPL with classpath exception - and the only thing that is preventing openjdk from being unusable in any commercial settings is a few lines of legalese, controlled by Oracle, on handful of source files in various packages. If Oracle removes that classpath exception legalese in some upcoming jdk version from these source files (which they are fully in control of), openjdk essentially becomes GPL-only. I guess then openj9, coretto etc would be more appealing but soon enough it feels like there will not be Java left - since those distributions don’t/can’t call themselves java unless oracle allows them to... and I’m not sure why they would - as apparent by OpenJ9 not being called java. So is it Java EE is dead, soon followed by Java? Am I mistaken about any of this?
- blattimwind 7y ago
  > Am I mistaken about any of this? You can't revoke a GPL license unless the licensee violated the GPL. Additionally, the GPL has this nifty "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients" clause. In other words, if you put some code out there under the GPL, there is no way for you to un-GPL that particular code. Even if you bring out a new version of it that isn't GPL any more, the old version still is. (This is quite important to make copyleft work)
  - amanaplanacanal 7y ago
    It sounds like the parent's issue is the other way, that Oracle might remove the classpath exception and then GPL would infect everything, effectively killing commercial opportunities.
    - sheeshkebab 7y ago
      Yes, that’s what I was wondering about
  - tzs 7y ago
    > You can't revoke a GPL license unless the licensee violated the GPL Probably true for GPLv3, because GPLv3 actually says that it is irrevocable. OpenJDK is under GPLv2, which does not say anything about revocation. It is an open question whether or not GPLv2 can be revoked. > Additionally, the GPL has this nifty "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients" clause. In other words, if you put some code out there under the GPL, there is no way for you to un-GPL that particular code That clause actually makes it more likely that GPLv2 could be at least partly revoked, because the full text is: > Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor [...] It's that "original licensor" part that makes partial revocation a possibility. What if the original licensor simply says that they are no longer granting new licenses? Everyone who already has a license can continue to use the software, but new recipients no longer can get a license? (That's what I meant by "partly revoked" earlier--existing copies remain OK, but the spread of them, or derivative works of them, is stopped). What happens then is a mess. Even figuring out who has standing to sue to try to make license issuing continue is a mess, getting into such questions as whether the unspecified future downstream recipients of copies are intentional beneficiaries or incidental beneficiaries of the contract. (And then there is the whole "is this a license or a contract?" issue which is very murky). BTW, even licenses that do say they are irrevocable might suffer from this partial revocation danger if downstream recipients must get their license from the original licensor. The fix to this is to allow sublicensing in your license. Make your license irrevocable (so that once someone gets a licensed copy it cannot be taken back), and allow sublicensing so that when someone distributes a copy the license for that copy comes from them rather than you. Then if you stop issuing new licenses there is no problem, because people get their licenses from their distributor. If you don't want distributors to be able to give their downstream less rights than you gave them by only sublicensing a subset of those rights, you can put in the license a clause that requires distributors to sublicense all the rights. A nice side effect of the sublicensing approach is distributors have standing to sue for license violations. Under the GPL-type approach, where all licenses are directly from the original licensor, only the original licensor can sue to enforce the license. Under the sublicensing approach, both the original licensor can sue (alleging copyright infringement) and the distributor can sue (alleging violation of the license).
exabrial 7y ago
The beauty of the JVM is that I could make a class loading agent that fixes 'the problem' of the package renaming at runtime.
stevespang 7y ago
Larry Ellison is the reincarnation of Satan . . .
needusername 7y ago
To me this seems like a play against OpenJ9 which is at least partially based on OpenJDK. Rumor has it that AdoptOpenJDK lost their TCK license because they also published OpenJ9 builds. I'm a bit surprised by this given that IBM is a long time license holder and I can remember JavaOne keynotes where Oracle celebrated IBM "joining" OpenJDK.
- avierax 7y ago
  Where can I read more about AdoptOpenJDK losing its TCK license? Is there any post? Any leak from their team?
  - javagram 7y ago
    I searched for this myself. Found a tweet from last year and the current statement on their site. https://adoptopenjdk.net/quality.html https://adoptopenjdk.net/quality.html > Java Compatibility Kit (JCK) / TCK Compliance > At this stage the London Jamocha Community CIC (aka LJC) has not been able to reach an agreement with Oracle to use the Java SE Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK) under the terms of the OpenJDK Community TCK License Agreement (OCTLA). > We will continue to work with Oracle on this matter. > All AdoptOpenJDK binaries are tested with our suite of functional, integration, stress, and performance tests, including real workloads from popular languages and applications. We are very confident in the quality of our builds.
  - needusername 7y ago
    https://twitter.com/volker_simonis/status/1052610654669074432?lang=en https://twitter.com/volker_simonis/status/105261065466907443...
narrator 7y ago
Oracle fights with the open source community and loses, again. They just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. What always happens is the Open Source people say "screw Oracle" and fork the project and the community comes along with them. The Hudson/Jenkins and OpenOffice/LibreOffice fails were two of the quickest and most obvious. Java EE seems like the same sort of thing, but much bigger and in slow motion.
doggydogs94 7y ago
Java would be better off if even Microsoft owned it.
sqldba 7y ago
Is Java separate to Java EE? Does this news have any impact on Java in general?
sriram_malhar 7y ago
“Everywhere I go I’m asked if I think universities stifle writers. I think they don’t stifle enough of them" --Flannery O'Conor. Java EE and CORBA had to go. It didn't matter who pulled the plug.
jeevest 7y ago
Are new systems being constructed in Java .. when starting on new projects Java was at one time (about 6-8 years ago) the leading alternative for Corporate IT (if they weren't a Microsoft shop). I doubt it very much. Oracle is playing this not-so-good role, that Microsoft used to play, under Steve Ballmer, monopolistic, and evil. I found Java hideous, the gratuitous OOP taken to extremes put me off. Spring came in, and you had class names that were a hundred characters long - your actual line of code was shorter than the class name. The problem with Java (and every programming language has its own achilles heel) - is everything has be class oriented - however much you try to bolt on, on top of that , to make it seem not so. . Java kills creativity, and expressiveness in software by its bloated syntax and OOP. We took up Java because at the time alternatives were few, but now its on its way being the new Cobol - this will sound ridiculous if you still are fully or partially, inside its bubble I ran from our Java shop. My software architect mocked me "you'll be back in 6 months" - instead, he quit the Java shop and stuck his head outside of the Java bubble and realized there was life outside.

460 points by omnibrain 7y ago

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

DonHopkins 7y ago
Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  Nice joke (apparently bad taste for the HN crowd). That said is C# really great ? come on .. they have F#, and F > C. QED
  - marak830 7y ago
    Honestly I'm not joking, but I am a casual coder. I have only learnt what I need to do, to do certain things. Which compared to most here isn't that much. (See my other responses, I'd actually love some input there, just wish I had more time to learn) Edit: as to the reference to the last part of your comment, I have only been using what I knew to do the job I needed, I'm not a full time coder so I can't search the latest and greatest, another reason I picked this thread to ask :-)
    - agumonkey 7y ago
      What do you mean ? you only learned C# so you could work and have no time to learn things like F# ?
      - marak830 7y ago
        (you're correct to an extent) I learnt c# to do what I wanted in my free time, I haven't had time to look into alternatives. C# does what I need, and I either work out how to do what I need with that, or I can't do it (I'm not a full time coder, so I don't have time to research, learn and recode what I have done to something new)
- pjmlp 7y ago
  First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler. And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available. And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Which platform doesn’t have a C# compiler that matters?
    - sebazzz 7y ago
      Java cards
      - realusername 7y ago
        Java cards use a very limited version of Java, I would not put it in the same category. You can't just take your average random java code and run it on a java card.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Well seeing that Java Cards don’t even run the full version of Java.....
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Yeah, but they surely don't run any version of .NET, not even an incomplete one.
        scarface74 7y ago
        So it’s really not running Java as defined by the specification...
        7y ago
- marak830 7y ago
  hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dtech 7y ago
    The .NET ecosystem is an order of magnitude smaller than the JVM ecosystem. Up until ~3 years¹ ago C#/.NET also meant a fully Microsoft and Windows environment for all practical purposes². This is changing and Microsoft seems to be embracing open source and Linux, but it takes time for a 20 year old ecosystem to fully make the transition. ¹ The story is Steve Balmer was very anti-open source and forbade most interop or support for Linux, so this only could start changing when he left in 2014. ² You always had Mono with is why Unity and GNOME could also use C#, but is was very niche outside of Unity.
    - inapis 7y ago
      That fully Microsoft and windows stack has had ripple effects. At least from my perspective in South Asia. First the price was a deal breaker. Second, people who started with C# quickly found their only employment opportunities to be at large companies. Those who started with Java/Node/Ruby had a much wider array to choose from. Third, when people jumped to start their own companies, Java/Node/Ruby/Python/Go won by a large margin. Startups rarely had the cash to spare for Microsoft stack and MS stack guys had to change their skill sets which is a painful endeavour in and of itself. Fourth, after some time people, who had been in the market for years, started discouraging younger devs to committing exclusively to a full MS stack. People rather interpreted it as dumping the MS stack. In my batch, only a dozen or so people were interested in pursuing C#/.Net. By the time we graduated only one person was still pursuing that stack. TLDR; Price was a big factor which only large companies could afford. Not everyone can be employed by large companies. This had a lot of secondary effects.
- james_s_tayler 7y ago
  I switched to C# late last year. Oracle is just too much baggage to have hanging around when thinking about your career / future for me. Really didn't like the direction they are taking things when they announced their new release train and licencing model. Compared to that Microsoft have done an about face in recent years with a commitment to open source and first-class support for Linux and revamping their core offering with .NET Core. It's been a mostly smooth transition.
- threeseed 7y ago
  You can't be serious. JVM is still the best platform for any type of back-end application. It has the widest array of libraries, is proven to run on any type of hardware and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance. .Net is a great platform and all but it still hasn't done enough to really merit switching teams. Especially when you have Scala, Kotlin, Clojure etc to pick from.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances. But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions? For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.
    - sigzero 7y ago
      For you what you use Java for it doesn't need to come "standard". I am not sure why Python is mentioned but it isn't close to a replacement.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        The parent post said “and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance”. That is not true. I brought up Python as an example of a language that does come “standard” on “cloud instances”(and MacOS) but it’s an older version. Most people wouldn’t count on the bundled version of either.
    - fuck_google 7y ago
      Windows based EC2 instances represent maybe 10 % of all EC2 instances.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ We run nearly 2x more Windows Server instances than the next largest cloud provider, according to an IDC report.
- cmiles74 7y ago
  I think every Java developer should be familiar with C# and dotNet Core. There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up.
  - cesarb 7y ago
    > There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up. Could you recommend good tutorials/manuals for developers with Java experience to learn C# (preferably without having to install Windows)?
    - jayd16 7y ago
      Download Jetbrain's Rider IDE and I'm pretty sure it'll get you hacking away in no time.
    - cutler 7y ago
      If you're looking to get into C# 8.0 you're out of luck if using OS X. Visual Studio 2019 for Mac offers .Net Core 3.0 as an option if you have it installed but Mono hasn't caught up with C# 8.0 so isn't available. So much for cross-platform development - it seems OS X is still an afterthought.
      - philliphaydon 7y ago
        What would you need mono for? If you’re using .net core...
        cutler 7y ago
        Download Visual Studio for Mac 2019 and you won't find C# 8.0 listed under the project's language options. I'm referring to the Mac here where I understood Mono is still the way .Net Core is implemented.
      - jongalloway2 7y ago
        Why? On OSX, just use Visual Studio Code and .NET Core: https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and-net-core-3-0 https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and...
smadge 7y ago
I never used a flow blown Java EE web application server, but the various APIs I used like JDBC, JAX-RS, and JPA were generally well thought out and pleasant enough to work with. It would be a shame if these interfaces/specifications became proprietary.
- based2 7y ago
  These specs are reuse in MicroProfile: https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation
- mbell 7y ago
  Without knowing it you have cherry picked possibly the only good parts of Java EE. The rest that constitute a 'full blown' Java EE stack are horrific disasters (JSF, EJB, etc).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - floriol 7y ago
    Would you mind showing any platform's solution to the problems that java EE solves? I have yet to see any competitor technology solve transaction management as elegantly as EJB's does.
tootie 7y ago
Any organization that bought into JEE is probably willing to pay Oracle's license fees. That being said, I've literally never seen an org that preferred JEE to Spring and that includes numerous massive enterprises.
- le-mark 7y ago
  Spring is built on the good parts of JEE; servlet api, jdbc, etc.. so it's not immune to churn in this area.
  - jacques_chester 7y ago
    A lot of the good parts of the JEE were inspired by Spring, which can go ahead with ideas without needing to go through the JCP. There's a cyclical relationship between them. Disclosure: I work for Pivotal, we sponsor Spring.
    - tootie 7y ago
      In the early 2000s I did a lot of work with ATG Dynamo which was a proprietary Java app server. It was light years ahead of the top competitors (WebLogic or WebSphere back then). It had dependency injection, clear separation of logic and UI, a handy runtime inspector GUI that let you inspect the state of all your container-managed objects including user sessions i an real-time and modify them. The original J2EE borrowed heavily from it and ruined it.

sheepdestroyer 7y ago

Oracle never fails to show off how evil they are.

pjmlp 7y ago
While there is some truth to it,they did more research for Java than Sun ever did, and no one else cared to buy Sun.
- rbanffy 7y ago
  That's, sadly, true. At the time of acquisition, Sun was only a shadow of its former glory...
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    It all started circling the drain when they merged SunOS with System V. Solaris: So bad I left the company.
    - rbanffy 7y ago
      They still did a ton of cool stuff after that. It was under Jonathan Schwartz that the lack of direction and the overwhelming confusion became painfully obvious, not knowing whether it was a software company trying to profit from and compete against free (as in beer) software, a hardware company narrowing its own niche at the very top or... something totally different. I kept a couple Type 7 keyboards.
- bharatm 7y ago
  They did research not because they want to support Java community, but because they want to make gains from making it proprietary.
  - repolfx 7y ago
    Then why is their research open source? GraalVM is on github.

DonHopkins 7y ago

>But once Eclipse products would be not vendor-neutral anymore, the EF’s tax exemption might become void, which would mean a financial fiasco, or possibly mean the end of the organization as a hole. I think the problem is Oracle's a-hole, in this situation.

masklinn 7y ago
Do not anthropomorphise the lawnmower.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  Point taken. But also: Do not work for, do business with, depend on, or attempt to negotiate with the lawnmower, either!
- DangitBobby 7y ago
  It's not a lawnmower. It's an organization made if people, and it's responsible for it's actions.
  - DonHopkins 7y ago
    Here's the full reference -- the point is that Oracle's a-hole is Larry Ellison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc "As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well, except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less complexity or nuance to it than Oracle. And I gotta say, as someone who has seen that complexity for my entire life, it's very hard to get used to that idea. It's like, 'surely this is more complicated!' but it's like: Wow, this is really simple! This company is very straightforward, in its defense. This company is about one man, his alter-ego, and what he wants to inflict upon humanity -- that's it! ...Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off, screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money. Yeah... you talk to Oracle, it's like, 'no, we don't fucking make dreams happen -- we make money!' ...You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle." -- Bryan Cantrill

hajderr 7y ago

heads over to Python :)

pjmlp 7y ago
Good luck with the performance over there.
- chpmrc 7y ago
  Before the language becomes a performance bottleneck there is so much stuff to consider that it quickly becomes clear how the choice of language doesn't really make a difference, except in special cases such as embedded systems.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    A language that requires C for anything regarding performance is only useful for scripting and learning to program.
    - mhuffman 7y ago
      I mean, what do you think the Java VM is written in?
      - threeseed 7y ago
        It's completely irrelevant. Because as a developer I am exclusively writing in a language that sits on top of the JVM. I don't ever need to write in the language that the JVM itself written in.
      - nosianu 7y ago
        You understand the the language your platform is written in and the language you as a developer write programs for the platform in are two completely different things?
      - pjmlp 7y ago

raquo 7y ago

(Not an expert on all the Java nomenclature / standards / politics) What does Eclipse foundation have to do with Java EE? Does this news sabotage their use of OpenJ9 somehow?

aurora72 7y ago
After Java SE has become proprietary-like software, it was reported that Java EE division would be handed to the Eclipse Foundation. And that was good news because it meant that Java EE would be managed independently from Oracle but now we see that Oracle wants to make Java EE dependent on themselves, and that is bad news :::

mjw1007 7y ago

« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle are taking note. https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members/ https://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/board-members/

dtech 7y ago
For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against Hungary, and Hungary all sanctions against Poland.
- mjw1007 7y ago
  That too, but I fear there are likely to be ways a hostile director could cause serious trouble even without a unanimous vote requirement.
- james_s_tayler 7y ago
  Yeah unanimous is ironic in that actually a single actor controls the outcome.
- stereo 7y ago
  It’s an old Polish tradition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  Hungary and Poland aren't the first to abuse the unanimous-1 veto. The Netherlands always vetos Romania's application to enter the Schengen zone as Romania's harbors to the Black Sea will provide cheaper alternatives for import of goods to the Dutch ones.

nbevans 7y ago

.NET Core will welcome this round of Java orphans with open arms.

pjmlp 7y ago
First it needs to sort out its history of not being compatible with all .NET Framework libraries.
- scarface74 7y ago
  The world is moving on from .Net Framework - including Microsoft. .Net Framework is definitely the new COBOL. It’s basically in maintenance mode. Any company would be crazy to start a new greenfield project using .Net Framework and should have some type of plan to move to Core. https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2018/10/10/net-keynote.aspx?m=1 https://visualstudiomagazine.com/articles/2018/10/10/net-key... The presenters said it will still be released with Windows, as it's a component of Windows itself, so it will be supported for the lifetime of Windows. Microsoft is just going to be making highly compatible targeted improvements to .NET Framework after version 4. So you shouldn't feel pressured to move off .NET Framework, but just know that it's going to be much more highly targeted compatible fixes kind of going forward and we recommend that all new development that you start on .NET is on .NET Core if possible
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    I know what Microsoft wants, I spend most of my time as .NET dev. That doesn't change the fact that many libs don't run on .NET Core, or outside Windows for that matter, specially the ones that depend on C++/CLI.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      So instead of tying your horse to one dead end platform - .Net Framework - you’re okay with tying your horse to two? It was clear that C++/CLI was a dead end a decade ago. When Microsoft mentions thier “strategies” for various .Net languages, you notice which one is missing? https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/the-net-language-strategy/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/the-net-language-strat... I’m very much a .Net fan but it makes about as much since as a developer to tie your fate to .Net framework or Windows only development in general in 2019 as it did for all of the companies not to move from VB6 after .Net was the future. Even Azure host more Linux VMs than Windows.

vfc1 7y ago

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found that Spring was a much better framework than Java EE, and have used it in most projects I've worked. Oracle did not take a note from the Microsoft book and is really behaving that an evil corporate overlord. It's clear at this stage that they bought Sun in order to slowly turn Java proprietary, and charge billions to the companies that are now fully Java-based for the next few decades. I'm glad I saw the writing on the wall and switched, but the problem is that Java is still being taught a lot at schools, and school programs especially universities are hard to adapt and only change every 4-5 years or so.

walkingolof 7y ago
Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying, the JVM and Java moves faster forward than ever, Graal is about to go 1.0, a bunch of very interesting (very) low latency GCs are in the pipe (for example ZGC and Shenandoah) and lots of other interesting projects like Valhalla promise to keep the JVM relevant for the next 20 years. Oracle have made some moves to monetize on parts of its investment, but the situation is largely misrepresented. Ref: - https://openjdk.java.net/projects/valhalla/ https://openjdk.java.net/projects/valhalla/ - https://www.graalvm.org https://www.graalvm.org - https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/zgc/Main - https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/shenandoah/Main https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/shenandoah/Main
- acqq 7y ago
  > Working in the JVM world I'm always surprised to hear that its dying So how is this "JVM world" escaping the grip of Oracle? E.g. graalvm is directly Oracle's, or am I missing something? Specifically, what is preventing any of the Java-related things people use now (including those that you mention) to end like the OP is describing? Asking as somebody outside of that world, but interested "how much it's worth considering" under the given circumstances (Oracle being Oracle, demanding a lot of money for everything Oracle's that some company could use, and owning a lot of that "world"). Where are the boundaries? What is safe and outside of reach of Oracle? E.g. what is safe for a small company to use?

josefx 7y ago

> the worst case possible, as it not only voids the “WORA” (Write Once Run Anywhere) principle, it simply won’t happen in reality: After 18 months virtually no application vendor really wants to spend the time and money to update all customers with recompiled versions just for the sake of a renamed platform with a dubios future. WORA was never perfect, I would be surprised if there was even a single JRE release that didn't note a breaking change in its release notes. So vendors should have a process to update their releases just for that already in place. > The future is unclear because Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. They have no rules to out board members acting in bad faith?

djakjxnanjak 7y ago
If they have such rules, I wonder how many votes they require to use...
DonHopkins 7y ago
Oracle would block any rules against acting in bad faith, or simply not follow them.

wangii 7y ago

how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think. I think Eclipse Foundation is f*cked, not by Oracle but its bureaucracy, and inability to reinvent itself.

cesarb 7y ago
> how hard will it be to work out a script, that update the namespace automatically? it would even be possible to do that in the bytecode level I think. Java has reflection, so classes can be loaded by name at runtime (and the name might have come from a XML file somewhere, or be the result of string concatenation); also, the name of a class can be easily obtained so code can depend on that (for instance, a logging configuration XML file). That's before considering that some libraries generate classes on the fly (by dynamically generating and loading bytecode, which include class names).

k__ 7y ago

Oracle is a disease. Everywhere it spreads things get bad :/

bborud 7y ago

Oracle makes Java a risk factor in all projects. I stopped approving new Java projects in my team 2 years ago after we switched to Go. This wasn’t a decision we took lightly and it took almost a decade for me to be comfortable with leaving Java behind. But it is the right thing to do. Oracle is not trustworthy.

threeseed 7y ago
Strange attitude to take when you can just target OpenJDK and then it is completely irrelevant what Oracle does or does not do. The fact is that every single one of the largest companies has some Java or Scala code within their core platform. And none of them have ever raised Oracle as a risk.
- tatersolid 7y ago
  The most valuable corporation in the world as of this date uses zero Java for anything “core”. Anecdotally, nearly every CIO/CTO I’ve encountered in the last few sees Oracle as a huge risk. Most particularly with regards to databases, which are even sticker than applications which have shorter life cycles.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    You mean the servers Apple has running on WebObjects, JEE and Clojure for iTunes, Apple Maps and their iCloud?
    - scarface74 7y ago
      iTunes is based on a 17 year old code base with a framework that hasn’t been updated in a decade. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Java. Seeing that Apple started a project to rewrite Maps back in 2014, hopefully they didn’t decide to rewrite it using WebObjects (https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling-the-backend-for-its-maps-service-hints-at-big-plans-to-come/amp/ https://appleinsider.com/articles/14/07/01/apple-overhauling...)

19870213 7y ago

I propose to mimic the intended move of the Indonesian government to move the capitol from Java to Borneo by forking OpenJDK/Java to OpenBDK/Borneo. If Oracle wants to keep the Java(tm) trademark, they can keep it.

pjmlp 7y ago
Are you going to replace the 99% OpenJDK developers that are on Oracle's paycheck as well?
- sangnoir 7y ago
  Yes. The Java ecosystem is far larger than Oracle. Java can absolutely thrive if Oracle were to cease to exist tomorrow, or if everyone else[1] decides to move to a fork. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827875
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Again, where are those contributors? Companies that just repackage Oracle's work don't count.
    - jacques_chester 7y ago
      Pivotal is hiring for JDK/JVM development. Worldwide. If you're at Oracle and you want out, drop me a line or do a search for "JDK" at https://pivotal.io/careers/openings https://pivotal.io/careers/openings Several companies outside Oracle already employ JDK folks (IBM, for example). I expect that increasingly our partners and competitors will do the same.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        So which JEPs on OpenJDK are being done by Pivotal? I fail to find them. IBM does minor contributions to Java, and mainly follows the language specification non their own JVMs. IBM was also the only company that bothered to make an initial proposal to acquire Sun, but withdrew it after Oracle's.

dtech 7y ago

> And the idea that corporate developers or even frankly any developers are switching to LLVM and WebAssembly en masse is pretty ridiculous. There is only 1 popular language released since 2009 that targets JVM: Kotlin. All other target JS, their own bytecode or LLVM: Go, Rust, Dart, Elixer, Julia, Typescript, Swift. This is a significant difference from 2003-2009 languages which all targeted JVM unless they were Microsofts: Groovy, Scala and Clojure.

pjmlp 7y ago
And all of them have a lot of work to catch up with 25 years of market experience.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. How will these languages ever catch up with innovations like JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces?
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >Because development that happened in 1994 is really relevant today. 1994? We still depend on tons of features, infrastructure, and techniques developed in the 60s and 70s. Heck, most of what the JS world considers "state of the art" was already available in 70s languages. As for the snark, first, the innovations the parents refers to is not "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces", but stuff like rock-solid GCs, tooling, and so on. And even techniques on the level of "JavaBeans, Java Server Pages, and Java Server Faces" are only going to be resold to several other languages. The JS worlds keeps on piling Java (or older) techniques and syntax. Heck, they just re-invented the "private instance variables" (with an ugly hash syntax) on their latest efforts...
    - scarface74 7y ago
      The contention was that other languages had a “lot to catch up” with Java because it’s been around for 25 years. So how haven’t other statically typed languages “caught up”? In fact, Java is so far behind C# with true Generics, LINQ - not the syntax the entire linq expressions -> expression trees -> runtime providers that can parse the trees and translate it to a destination syntax, etc. it’s laughable. Can anyone say honestly that Oracle has been a good steward over Java or that it has improved as fast as any modern popular language? And the “tooling” around Java is the main reason that when I had a choice between C# and Java in the mid 2000s, I chose C#. Heck, the Visual Studio 97 was better than most Java tooling is today. Yeah I played around with the early VB like Java IDEs like JBuildsr. Java’s IDE’s have never been strong points. Neither have the XML is king mindset.

based2 7y ago

I bet Oracle will have its MS pivot moment, sooner that we think, to face AWS, PostgreSQL, IBM/Red Hat, Pivotal Spring offers... But it was a lot of time wasted: Apache Harmony/Java LibreOffice/OpenOffice MariaDB/MySQL Jenkins/Hudson now Eclipse/Java Right now, they are in sales hurry mode, calling at all occasions technical contacts each time you create a new account to download something on their web site... ... https://netbeans.apache.org/ https://netbeans.apache.org/ https://cloud.oracle.com/containers/kubernetes-engine https://cloud.oracle.com/containers/kubernetes-engine ... In O/WebLogic, javax.* imports are by default private. Open9J vs Graal https://github.com/eclipse/omr/issues/1118 https://github.com/eclipse/omr/issues/1118

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
based2 7y ago
forgot Iluminos/OpenSolaris story - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc#t=33m0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc#t=33m0s https://blogs.eclipse.org/post/mike-milinkovich/update-jakarta-ee-rights-java-trademarks https://blogs.eclipse.org/post/mike-milinkovich/update-jakar... Note: Oracle ECM, WebCenter Content has no simple Virtual Document solution.

rafaelturk 7y ago

We all love Java, however we need to decouple the Language from the ecosystem that the new owner of Java, Oracle, wants to enforce upon customers. Oracle made a clear business decision and will go forward squeeze every single dollar they possible can thru legal means, not from innovation or services.

repolfx 7y ago
How are they squeezing dollars here? They don't seem to be demanding payment, or at least not directly. I read the board notes. This appears to be a disagreement about trademarks and compatibility licensing. To be called "Java" you need to be compatible with the Java specs, and also have a trademark license. That's how they enforce that the platform can be reimplemented but it's seamless to users. Seems Eclipse Foundation doesn't like that.

znpy 7y ago

Dumb question... Wouldn't it be possible to fork the namespace to something like javax -> jawax (or java->borneo as someone suggested) and then patch the JVM to alias the javax package to the would-be jawax package (or borneox or whatever) ?

ZiiS 7y ago
Technically easy, but thought to expose that new JVM legally.
needusername 7y ago
You would probably rather write a JVM agent that changes the class references. Eclipse will almost surely fork the namespace to something jakarta related.
- needusername 7y ago
  Which turns to to be quite easy: https://twitter.com/rafaelcodes/status/1125032183167688706 https://twitter.com/rafaelcodes/status/1125032183167688706
fiddlerwoaroof 7y ago
The other option is a maven plugin that lets you rename packages and then someone posts a list of rules on a StackOverflow question for renaming the new namespaces to the old ones: that way, no JDK distributor is distributing software that understands the old package names.
theandrewbailey 7y ago
Maybe have a more sensible namespace convention. Presently, for any given API, it's a toss up of whether it's under javax.* or java.*, with no rhyme or reason.

ausjke 7y ago

Oracle is a cancer. Android may get infected one day which is worrisome. What about MySQL. Google should have bought Sun in the first place, unfortunately all they could see is its searching with ads. Google better buy Canonical now before Oracle or other evils do it.

theandrewbailey 7y ago
If anyone buys Canonical, I'm betting on Microsoft.

sheeshkebab 7y ago

If I understand correctly, OpenJDK is licensed under GPL with classpath exception - and the only thing that is preventing openjdk from being unusable in any commercial settings is a few lines of legalese, controlled by Oracle, on handful of source files in various packages. If Oracle removes that classpath exception legalese in some upcoming jdk version from these source files (which they are fully in control of), openjdk essentially becomes GPL-only. I guess then openj9, coretto etc would be more appealing but soon enough it feels like there will not be Java left - since those distributions don’t/can’t call themselves java unless oracle allows them to... and I’m not sure why they would - as apparent by OpenJ9 not being called java. So is it Java EE is dead, soon followed by Java? Am I mistaken about any of this?

blattimwind 7y ago
> Am I mistaken about any of this? You can't revoke a GPL license unless the licensee violated the GPL. Additionally, the GPL has this nifty "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients" clause. In other words, if you put some code out there under the GPL, there is no way for you to un-GPL that particular code. Even if you bring out a new version of it that isn't GPL any more, the old version still is. (This is quite important to make copyleft work)
- amanaplanacanal 7y ago
  It sounds like the parent's issue is the other way, that Oracle might remove the classpath exception and then GPL would infect everything, effectively killing commercial opportunities.
  - sheeshkebab 7y ago
    Yes, that’s what I was wondering about
- tzs 7y ago
  > You can't revoke a GPL license unless the licensee violated the GPL Probably true for GPLv3, because GPLv3 actually says that it is irrevocable. OpenJDK is under GPLv2, which does not say anything about revocation. It is an open question whether or not GPLv2 can be revoked. > Additionally, the GPL has this nifty "Automatic Licensing of Downstream Recipients" clause. In other words, if you put some code out there under the GPL, there is no way for you to un-GPL that particular code That clause actually makes it more likely that GPLv2 could be at least partly revoked, because the full text is: > Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor [...] It's that "original licensor" part that makes partial revocation a possibility. What if the original licensor simply says that they are no longer granting new licenses? Everyone who already has a license can continue to use the software, but new recipients no longer can get a license? (That's what I meant by "partly revoked" earlier--existing copies remain OK, but the spread of them, or derivative works of them, is stopped). What happens then is a mess. Even figuring out who has standing to sue to try to make license issuing continue is a mess, getting into such questions as whether the unspecified future downstream recipients of copies are intentional beneficiaries or incidental beneficiaries of the contract. (And then there is the whole "is this a license or a contract?" issue which is very murky). BTW, even licenses that do say they are irrevocable might suffer from this partial revocation danger if downstream recipients must get their license from the original licensor. The fix to this is to allow sublicensing in your license. Make your license irrevocable (so that once someone gets a licensed copy it cannot be taken back), and allow sublicensing so that when someone distributes a copy the license for that copy comes from them rather than you. Then if you stop issuing new licenses there is no problem, because people get their licenses from their distributor. If you don't want distributors to be able to give their downstream less rights than you gave them by only sublicensing a subset of those rights, you can put in the license a clause that requires distributors to sublicense all the rights. A nice side effect of the sublicensing approach is distributors have standing to sue for license violations. Under the GPL-type approach, where all licenses are directly from the original licensor, only the original licensor can sue to enforce the license. Under the sublicensing approach, both the original licensor can sue (alleging copyright infringement) and the distributor can sue (alleging violation of the license).

exabrial 7y ago

The beauty of the JVM is that I could make a class loading agent that fixes 'the problem' of the package renaming at runtime.

stevespang 7y ago

Larry Ellison is the reincarnation of Satan . . .

needusername 7y ago

To me this seems like a play against OpenJ9 which is at least partially based on OpenJDK. Rumor has it that AdoptOpenJDK lost their TCK license because they also published OpenJ9 builds. I'm a bit surprised by this given that IBM is a long time license holder and I can remember JavaOne keynotes where Oracle celebrated IBM "joining" OpenJDK.

avierax 7y ago
Where can I read more about AdoptOpenJDK losing its TCK license? Is there any post? Any leak from their team?
- javagram 7y ago
  I searched for this myself. Found a tweet from last year and the current statement on their site. https://adoptopenjdk.net/quality.html https://adoptopenjdk.net/quality.html > Java Compatibility Kit (JCK) / TCK Compliance > At this stage the London Jamocha Community CIC (aka LJC) has not been able to reach an agreement with Oracle to use the Java SE Technology Compatibility Kit (TCK) under the terms of the OpenJDK Community TCK License Agreement (OCTLA). > We will continue to work with Oracle on this matter. > All AdoptOpenJDK binaries are tested with our suite of functional, integration, stress, and performance tests, including real workloads from popular languages and applications. We are very confident in the quality of our builds.
- needusername 7y ago
  https://twitter.com/volker_simonis/status/1052610654669074432?lang=en https://twitter.com/volker_simonis/status/105261065466907443...

narrator 7y ago

Oracle fights with the open source community and loses, again. They just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. What always happens is the Open Source people say "screw Oracle" and fork the project and the community comes along with them. The Hudson/Jenkins and OpenOffice/LibreOffice fails were two of the quickest and most obvious. Java EE seems like the same sort of thing, but much bigger and in slow motion.

doggydogs94 7y ago

Java would be better off if even Microsoft owned it.

sqldba 7y ago

Is Java separate to Java EE? Does this news have any impact on Java in general?

sriram_malhar 7y ago

“Everywhere I go I’m asked if I think universities stifle writers. I think they don’t stifle enough of them" --Flannery O'Conor. Java EE and CORBA had to go. It didn't matter who pulled the plug.

jeevest 7y ago

Are new systems being constructed in Java .. when starting on new projects Java was at one time (about 6-8 years ago) the leading alternative for Corporate IT (if they weren't a Microsoft shop). I doubt it very much. Oracle is playing this not-so-good role, that Microsoft used to play, under Steve Ballmer, monopolistic, and evil. I found Java hideous, the gratuitous OOP taken to extremes put me off. Spring came in, and you had class names that were a hundred characters long - your actual line of code was shorter than the class name. The problem with Java (and every programming language has its own achilles heel) - is everything has be class oriented - however much you try to bolt on, on top of that , to make it seem not so. . Java kills creativity, and expressiveness in software by its bloated syntax and OOP. We took up Java because at the time alternatives were few, but now its on its way being the new Cobol - this will sound ridiculous if you still are fully or partially, inside its bubble I ran from our Java shop. My software architect mocked me "you'll be back in 6 months" - instead, he quit the Java shop and stuck his head outside of the Java bubble and realized there was life outside.