29 ms·
I had the same thing happen to me a couple times. Long and tiring process. Blackboard, make a project, lots of dirty laundry about "long gone incompetent develo
by revvx 7y ago
I had the same thing happen to me a couple times. Long and tiring process. Blackboard, make a project, lots of dirty laundry about "long gone incompetent developers" that made the current system a giant mess. Lots of red flags but lots of promises including a large maximum salary, including bonuses and stock options.
The final offer, however, was 60% of my current pay. Lower than the average for someone with my experience and position.
I had good rapport with the HR recruiter and flat out asked why they proceeded, even though she knew I was already getting more, at a better company, with more benefits.
The answer: they assumed I was lying about my current salary and I was just bluffing. Recommended me that I lie in my next interview.
- d4mi3n 7y agoRule number 1, IMO, never discuss salary. I find listing your salary requirements before starting a process weeds out a lot of silly interviews. If you know your worth and have a goal for your salary, it is the most effective way I know to avoid dumb offers.
- revvx 7y agoBut that's exactly what I did? Sorry, I didn't phrase it right. My non-negotiable requirement was 20% more than I was getting. I gave a hard number and they said "yeah we can give that" before the interview. However the recruiter just assumed I was bluffing and went ahead with that colossal waste of time.
- infinite8s 7y agoYou should list the company so other people know not to waste their time.
- mcv 7y agoThey promise that amount up front, and then renege? That's not even deceitful, that's just intentionally wasting your time. I would send them an invoice for the time spent on the interview. What a bizarre way to run a business.
- pathseeker 7y ago>They promise that amount up front, and then renege? "we can give X" is not a promise to give X.
- marcosdumay 7y agoHow is it not a promise? I fail to imagine it being said in a way that isn't one.
- revvx 7y agoIt is a verbal promise, not a contract. They just broke it. They were unprofessional.
- aoeusnth1 7y agoA verbal promise can very easily be interpreted as a contract by a court. (IANAL, and clearly YANAL)
- baddox 7y agoThe commenter hadn’t even done the interview yet. There’s no way a court would interpret this as a contract to pay the person that amount.
- wool_gather 7y agoThe legal side is almost irrelevant. The situation is that they're trying to initiate what should be a mutually-beneficial, longish-term working relationship. Leading into it with this kind of letdown isn't a good start.
- marcosdumay 7y agoThe only reason it's not a contract is because the job offer wasn't closed yet. This is more similar to false advertising.
- 7y ago
- ohyes 7y agoSounds like an incompetent recruiter. Recruiters make money as a percentage of your hiring salary, why on earth would they try to place you somewhere that you are making less? They should be shopping you to whoever will give the most money.
- sundaeofshock 7y agoThe incentives don’t always work out that way. There comes a point of diminishing returns for the recruiter; trying to get an extra $20k a year for you, might take time away from them closing two or three other candidates. Also, a recruiter does not get any real benefit out of negotiations that involve things other then salary. Extra vacation, bonuses, guaranteed severance packages, etc. Key take a way from this: never let your recruiter negotiate on your behalf. Once you are at the stage, tell your recruiter to F off and get the best deal you can for yourself.
- revvx 7y agoIt was an HR recruiter that works for the company, not an independent recruiter. I agree about the incompetence part, though. Terrible waste of time for everyone involved.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- sixtypoundhound 7y agoActually, most recruiters I've run into tend to try to force a candidate to accept a "reasonable" offer rather than holding out for the best offer. They only get paid if a deal closes; while it may be in your best interest to hold out for another $10K, that will likely cost them a commission (and be opposed)
- listenallyall 7y ago100% correct, recruiters want to close the deal, not let it slip away over salary negotiations. And they want to get hired again (they get paid by the company, not the recruit) so saving that company 10, 15k is definitely in the best interest of the recruiter.
- d4mi3n 7y agoSorry, didn’t get that when I read your previous post. If that is the case: screw those guys. If you can’t trust a company with _writing an employment contract_, how can you trust any future interaction. If your skills are in demand, move on. Not worth your time and being able to walk away is the single most valuable card one can play during a negotiation.
- danieltillett 7y agoThis approach has come up a number of times in the comment that it makes me think that many candidates are bluffing and so this might well be a rational (if very sleazy) approach.
- hpcjoe 7y agoMy favorite was something that happened 2+ years ago. I had closed down my business, and was speaking with folks, including a well funded startup in Milpitas area. I was in the area for a different interview, and spent the evening before that interview with this startup. I knew the CEO from a previous effort. After much discussion, I thought they had something interesting, though I was hard pressed to find real differentiators. I thought I could help, and the senior leadership of the company did as well. We talked over a number of projects. Started negotiations, I was asked about what it would take to get me over. I gave them realistic sets of numbers and conditions. CEO's response to me was priceless. "But that's more than I make." Um ... yeah. And this matters ... how? I know, startups push the equity side hard, as they tend to be cash poor and stock rich. He then suggested a number that was under half of my minimum acceptable (covering costs, maintaining something that looks like a quality of life). And not so much equity. Yeah. Didn't go there. CEO was out within a few months.
- andrei_says_ 7y agoI like mentally replacing “stock” with “lottery tickets”.
- ZeWaren 7y agoMy company has no investors. The first years were a bit hard revenue wise. The first engineers were paid a lot more than myself and the other cofounders until we got proper traction. Never had any issue with that.
- nkingsy 7y agoI recently explicitly gave my salary requirements up front, went through an arduous process and got an offer of about 2/3 of what we had BOTH agreed upon in the first informational interview. This from a very profitable mid-large sized established tech company in the US.
- petre 7y agoIf the rule is to get 2/3 of what is asked for, then maybe we should ask for 3/2 to be offered that amount.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- abawany 7y agoTo add to the 'sucker' anecdote, when I was young and stupid (at least I am not young anymore), I was contacted by a NYC recruiter looking to hire for Bloomberg. Here was his tack to extract salary information: "being a financial company, it is required for us to know what you currently make." On this aspect, I think I know better now, hopefully.
- JauntTrooper 7y agoThat's illegal now in NYC.
- walshemj 7y agoYeh right :-)
- ben509 7y agoIt's $125,000[1] for a violation of the law. 1: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/chapter-1.page#8-126 https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/chapter-1.page#8-126
- flyinglizard 7y agoIt's not that straight forward, especially if you charge on the high end. Without them getting to know you and your benefits, a high price up front would just drive them away. If you're shooting for mid market rate, it's obviously different; but if you're selling them on your value, that value needs to be demonstrated before money talks.
- arthurcolle 7y agoI agree with the rule and wish it was easier to put into practice. What I've noticed however, is that a lot of recruiters stonewall you if you don't tell them a number, or at least a range. They even say things like "Well I need to put something into this internal web app." It's super frustrating!
- jodrellblank 7y agopatio11's suggestion for this: > Objection: “This form needs a number.” > What you should think: “You’re lying to me to attempt to get me to compromise my negotiating position.” > What you should say: “Give me git access and I’ll fix it in a jiffy! both people laugh No, seriously, speaking, I’m more concerned at the moment with discovering whether we’re a mutual fit… Oh, it’s physically impossible? Put in $1 then to get the ball rolling, and we’ll circle back to this later.” https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ related: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2016/06/03/kalzumeus-podcast-episode-12-salary-negotiation-with-josh-doody/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2016/06/03/kalzumeus-podcast-episo...
- d4mi3n 7y agoPatio11 has done fantastic writing in this topic that shaped a lot of my own opinions. Worth reading if anybody hasn’t seen it before.
- b212 7y agoIs this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose maybe some people really fall for it after investing so much time? Once or twice an US SV startup asked if I’ll allow them to install some tracking software on my machine. Meanwhile no developer in my country even responds to offers if the salary is not given in the offer even before the interview kicks in. What’s wrong with the American market? Are there too many developers or what? (sorry for the typos, fat fingers and small phone)
- mkurz 7y agoCan you tell us which Eastern European country do you live? What are your skills? Thanks!
- Drdrdrq 7y agoWas curious myself, based in on his other comments, it's Poland.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- bufferoverflow 7y agoYeah, but then you have to breathe in coal. Dirtiest air in the EU.
- edoceo 7y agoThis site disagrees with your opinion http://airindex.eea.europa.eu http://airindex.eea.europa.eu
- 7y ago
- peteradio 7y agoYou are supposed to lie to inflate your salary even more? So rather than offer of 60% current pay they'd be offering 30% wink wink current pay. I hope you no longer communicate with that recruiter.
- d4mi3n 7y agoThis is common practice, but it’s playing into a bad power dynamic where the employer is trying to anchor the negotiation to a number. It’s a predatory question, and giving a bullshit answer to a bullshit question is a reasonable response. As I mentioned in another comment, I personally prefer just setting a salary range I’d be willing to accept. I walk away if given an offer below that range. It gives me the initiative of anchoring the negotiation to a number I want. It also saves me a lot of time by screening out companies that aren’t willing to actually negotiate.
- jpdb 7y agoSo why not just tell them a number, because the company is going to go for the lowest in the range anyways?
- revvx 7y agoYou can ALWAYS negotiate before you accept the offer. "Yeah thanks, but that offer is not enough for me to leave my current job. I need at least X more. Let me know if you're interested." (In fact, you can negotiate even AFTER you accept it!)
- fma 7y agoI've posted this elsewhere (forgot here or reddit). I'm gainfully employed. A former colleague who is now in a hiring position at a new company reached out to me. Said they have several openings and are having a hard time hiring good people. It would be a much longer commute, working/rewriting some older tech to be cloud ready (I did that at my current and previous employer). We started talking about salary. I told him what I made. He told me...he could match that. I thought to myself...that's not how it works. I'm sure I could have negotiated higher. But I wonder if he thinks I inflated my salary and those said match. Keeping in mind my current company has some of the best benefits I've seen outside of Silcone Valley...
- revvx 7y ago> He told me...he could match that. I think he was just honest. In those cases, I'd answer with "Ok but I need X% more because of the commute and the hassle of changing jobs".
- walshemj 7y agoAnd that X% needs to be post tax
- negamax 7y agoMake sure you don’t end up in the same hierarchy as your friend
- fma 7y agoI woulda been reporting to him :)
- pm90 7y ago> I told him what I made. Never make that mistake. Never ever disclose your salary information to someone that you potentially could work for. I think a situation where we were required by law to disclose, or a company where such a thing was common (GitLab) would be exceptions. But otherwise, I've found it to be a huge mistake to disclose your exact salary or numbers to anyone.
- mgleason_3 7y agoThis - we really need a law requiring companies post what the jobs pays. It would solve so many problems - including ones like this, gender discrimination, etc.
- sundaeofshock 7y agoIn California, employers are required to disclose salary ranges for jobs if asked by prospective employees.
- wolfgke 7y ago> This - we really need a law requiring companies post what the jobs pays. It would solve so many problems - including ones like this, gender discrimination, etc. A much simpler solution: if lots of programmers would strongly avoid to take jobs at companies that do not tell the salary upfront, the problem would disappear by itself.
- WalterBright 7y ago> they assumed I was lying about my current salary and I was just bluffing That's commonplace, I've heard many engineers say they overstated their current salary. When I'd apply for jobs, I'd include a copy of a paystub, because I knew the companies knew about the practice and would discount the offer accordingly.
- jkaplowitz 7y agoI like the balance California now strikes: while employers can't ask about salary history, if a candidate voluntarily shares the information unsolicited, they can verify it and make the offer conditional on the verification passing. So, California employers won't be able to avoid a complaint if they press for a current (as opposed to desired) salary number and disadvantage or reject the candidate on that basis, but they can still check for honesty. While I definitely don't want to discriminatorily let low salaries have a bad knock-on effect at subsequent jobs, I also don't want to hire or work with liars.
- WalterBright 7y agoInflating one's salary on a resume was so common it's like the Tour de France - you have to dope to even get on the field, because everyone does it, and everyone expects it. So I just sidestepped all that bs by including a paystub. And the resulting offer was a nice raise. > I also don't want to hire or work with liars I'm with you there. Lying on a resume is an automatic "no hire" from me. By including a paystub, I don't feel forced to lie, and the employer doesn't feel forced to assume I'm lying. It's a good start to the relationship.
- jkaplowitz 7y agoSure. I just realize that so many people have been underpaid for no good reason, whether due to negotiating inexperience or discrimination or simply coming from a different geography or the nonprofit sector, that requiring pay history is not something I can support as a routine requirement. Verifying any pay history info that is provided, however, seems fine to me. This could certainly be via pay stub, or it could be by contacting the former employer with candidate consent after the official offer letter is issued and accepted (worded to be revocable if the verification fails).
- rayiner 7y ago> The answer: they assumed I was lying about my current salary and I was just bluffing. Recommended me that I lie in my next interview. My first interview for a job after law school, first interviewer. Guy begins to look at my resume, tosses it aside, and says “I don’t read resumes. Everyone lies in their resume. Hell, I lie on my resume.” After that, the whole time I’m thinking to myself “what kind of moron lies on a legal resume? The bar calls every employer you’ve ever had since high school.”
- Rotdhizon 7y agoWould it be possible to tell the recruiter/company something like "This is my current salary and I will not settle for less. So far you have hyped up this position as high paying. From this point forward if you offer me anything less than my current salary, the interview process will be ended and you will be billed for the time of mine you wasted"?
- anotheryou 7y agoThan you'd get 10% more max, no? Without the disclosure it could be more.