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Explaining Sex Rate Changes
- kbar13 7y agoas someone who struggles with their lack of sexual activity and desirability, reading this article and included quotes greatly increased my desire to commit suicide. i noticed that employment status is listed as a factor in the desirability of men. i have a stable job and fairly high income. to me this confirms my insecurities in that i am unattractive both physically and personality-wise.
- saagarjha 7y agoIf you are being serious, please seek help; whether it be talking to someone or calling the suicide hotline (1-800-273-TALK).
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- dang 7y agoJust so you know, in addition to what saagarjha posted, we (moderators) care about comments like this. We leave them flagged because of worries about how they might affect others, not because we don't care about you. If there's a chance it might help at all, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com.
- ianai 7y agoThe most populous nation on the planet has a misbalance of men:women. That’s all it really takes.
- manfredo 7y agoThis study is limited to the United States.
- saagarjha 7y agoThis article seems to focus on the United States, where there really isn't an imbalance.
- ianai 7y agoExcept that 20s-30s men are competing directly against other, college aged men. And maybe that’s enough. Edit-another pet theory is a changing climate. Cultures in drier climates tend to be more sexually conservative. A large portion of the US has been in drought conditions for decades
- saagarjha 7y agoColleges in the United States tend to have a female majority at the undergraduate level.
- RandomInteger4 7y agoYou seem to be misunderstanding this thread. The OP was referring to sex imbalance as a matter of chromosomal sex, as in more men than women in countries like India / China. Granted, as has been pointed out by the parent comment to yours, this study is referring to the US specifically, where there are more women than men in 40 states (https://www.statista.com/statistics/301946/us-population-males-per-100-females-by-state/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/301946/us-population-mal...)
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- lainga 7y agoCan we look to other cultures where widespread celibacy (especially extramarital) is already practiced for cues as to how this will affect the US?
- saagarjha 7y agoI'm not aware of any culture that encourages "widespread celibacy"–which ones are you talking about?
- lainga 7y agoI had no concrete examples, I'm not even sure it happens; I was casting around to my fellow readers in case any of them knew of cultures where it does occur.
- AstralStorm 7y agoAny such culture would be long gone or full of hypocrisy. There are cultures where sex ratio has been manipulated, e.g. India and China, to favor males, but this is not the point of the research and I lack relevant data for these.
- lainga 7y agoIsn't extramarital celibacy sustainable, given that you can have sex and children once you are married?
- fullshark 7y agoShakers: they died out https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakers
- barry-cotter 7y agoThe only historical culture(s) with widespread non-religious celibacy among substantial portions of the population are Western European but widespread celibacy certainly existed there. It’s also a thing in the Buddhist and Hindu world but that was mostly a life stage rather than life long celibacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_pattern https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_marriage_patt... > The Western European marriage pattern is a family and demographic pattern that is marked by comparatively late marriage (in the middle twenties), especially for women, with a generally small age difference between the spouses, a significant proportion of women who remain unmarried, and the establishment of a neolocal household after the couple has married. In 1965, John Hajnal discovered that Europe is divided into two areas characterized by a different patterns of nuptiality. To the west of the line, marriage rates and thus fertility were comparatively low and a significant minority of women married late or remained single and most families were nuclear; to the east of the line and in the Mediterranean and particular regions of Northwestern Europe, early marriage and extended family homes were the norm and high fertility was countered by high mortality.
- PutinIsMyGod 7y agoI honestly believe the rise of incelibacy will lead to increasing destabilization of the US. There's nothing worse for a country than a bunch of lonely angry men without jobs and without sex.
- AstralStorm 7y agoIncelibacy is not a word and do not make it one. It's called involuntary celibacy.
- Buge 7y agoYeah, I would think "incelibacy" would mean non-celibacy. But that's the opposite of what PutinIsMyGod meant. Then again flammable and inflammable mean the same thing.
- thatoneuser 7y agoWhat a country!
- jasonmp85 7y agoThat's also not a thing.
- zone411 7y agoI think you're right but there are new things coming, such as VR porn, that could make the effect smaller.
- kbar13 7y agoporn is not a replacement for a relationship with a person, casual or serious.
- zone411 7y agoOf course it's not but VR porn is a big step from video porn. There will be a percentage of men who will be satisfied by it just enough to wait longer (at 30+ it could become easier for them). Don't you think that this could lower the destabilizing effect?
- ilaksh 7y agoMy theory is that it could be related to the economy getting worse. My belief is that women are generally more likely to have sex with someone that they consider to be viable long-term reproductive partners or marriage material. Fewer men have the financial success and stability that many women are looking for in a serious relationship that would make them comfortable with routine sex.
- fuckyah 7y agoI think your answer might describe the problem very well. Not what you say but it might be that men think like that?
- manfredo 7y agoI don't think the data supports this. The economy has gotten better since 2008 by a significant margin. The unemployment rate has dropped consistently since 2010. But that's when the rise of lack of sex seems to really kick off and it hasn't subsided as the economy improved.
- siwatanejo 7y ago"Economy getting better" arguments fall into the trap of the law of averages.
- manfredo 7y agoSince 2010 GDP is growing, unemployment is going down, and real wages have at least remained steady and many analysts claim it has risen. If the economy really was tied to lack of sex we should be seeing a large spike around 2008/2009 and continuing until 2010 or 2011 and then returning to normal rates by 2018. Granted, there may be some sort of lag between economic changes and the effect on sex lives. E.g. a boyfriend loses a job in 2009, fails to find work in several years, and then gets dumped. But that seems like more of a stretch, and it seems like the pattern of less sex particularly among men is occurring even among people in age cohorts that weren't affected by the economic downturn during the end of the last decade. Also I think you're referring to the trap of the law of averages incorrectly. The trap of the law of averages is the erroneous notion that because a random even has diverged from the average then the likelihood of it returning to the average is higher. "The coin toss came up head five times in a row, so it'll probably be tails this time" is falling into the trap of the law of averages.
- manfredo 7y agoMy napkin paper theory is that for nonmarital* sex the internet has made it easier for people to find partners, with the overall effect that the bottom ~1/3 of men cannot find partners. Generally women are more selective than men when it comes to casual sex, and desirable men are usually willing to have sex with multiple partners. I recall studies that found that the top 20% of men on dating platforms account for 80% of the matches. I suspect that the drop in rates of no sex later in life is because that is the age when people start to get married (late 20s, 30s). Unlike the casual sex market, marriage is generally 1:1 so 80:20 dynamic flattens out. \* I'm using "nonmarital" here to refer to sex outside of a long-tern committed relationship. I originally referred to this as "casual sex" but I think that may be more loaded than what I'm looking for. Edit: "extramarital" -> "nonmarital" as per respondent's suggestion
- dragonwriter 7y ago“extramarital” sex usually means sex by a married person with someone other than their spouse; I think “nonmarital” is a better term for what you are discussing.
- esturk 7y agoYes, women controls the access to sex but of the men that do get the sex, those men controls the access to the relationship. See it really is supply and demand. If a stud can get access to so many women, why would he commit so easily to just any relationship? Like the tech job market, you have top companies getting most of the applicants and being super selective. Eventually, some women will have to settle on a lesser company or University.
- distant_hat 7y agoIn my (limited) experience, I see women separating the two. They have sex with the unavailable stud and have the relationship with some beta guy or their girlfriends.
- michaelmrose 7y agoIf men in the bottom 20% want sex they can take steps to increase their position including losing weight, hitting the gym, working on getting a better paid job. Alternatively they can offer a greater degree of commitment to female bottom 20%ers who presumably ALSO aren't getting a lot of casual interaction.
- zone411 7y agoI think the trend is true but this study did not have a large sample size. It was 31 out of 105 men in this age range saying they did not have sex.
- BurningFrog 7y agoI didn't believe you and checked. The GSS interviews 1500 people for each study, which comes out to about the numbers you mention. http://gss.norc.org/faq http://gss.norc.org/faq
- bagofpaper 7y agoIsn't it obvious? Tinder and its lookalikes have utterly destroyed the dating market for the median male.
- freyir 7y agoAs the article points out, fewer young men are having sex, but roughly the same number of young women are having sex. I wonder if dating apps (Tinder, Bumble, etc.) are leading women to have sex with a smaller cohort of desirable men. Years ago, OkCupid noted that a small percentage of men get an overwhelming percentage of messages from women. With the rise of "swipe right, swipe left" mobile dating apps, where people choose partners based almost solely on looks and status indicators, I can imagine it's getting even more unbalanced.
- fratlas 7y agoI've noticed this disparity within my friend circles. The objectively attractive men match/sleep with multiple woman a month where almost all of the men with near average looks get approximately zero matches. Interesting indeed. My female friends match with almost every male regardless.
- WrtCdEvrydy 7y agoHey, this is fine, I love single mothers. The guy who's fucking three or four girls will leave three or four single mothers ready for me :)
- dang 7y agoPlease don't do this here.
- ianai 7y agoI think you’re both onto something. There’s even a likely network effect where those men who sleep around are even more attractive to potential mates. Not as a rule, of course, but as a contributing factor. It’s a very destabilizing trend. Not only are these same men being economically disadvantaged, but they’re being socially isolated. Perfect way to increase violent tendencies, drug addition, and so on.
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- irrational 7y ago>It also won’t do to point to changes over this time period that effected all ages and genders similarly, such as obesity, porn, video games, social media, dating apps, and wariness re harassment claims. I think this is wrong. I don't believe these things effect all ages and genders similarly. For instance, I think we would find that the rate of young men playing video games and watching porn are much higher than for young women. I'm not saying that young women don't do these things, but I don't believe these things are engaged in at the same rates as young men. Also, many older men are already married. Even if they do view porn at similar rates to young men, this might not affect the rate at which they are having sex with their wives. And, in my experience, older men and women are not playing video games at the same rates as young men.
- gnicholas 7y agoBingo. The fact that something is available to everyone doesn't meant it affects all genders/ages the same. Availability does not equal impact.
- novia 7y agoNot to mention that historically video games and pornography both have been marketed towards and produced for men in the age group affected much more than women in the same age group.
- scarmig 7y agoAll true, but it's important to establish cause and effect. Is a young man being addicted to porn and LoL a cause or an effect of not getting laid? It's probably some kind of complicated feedback loop.
- enraged_camel 7y ago>>For instance, I think we would find that the rate of young men playing video games and watching porn are much higher than for young women. I'm not saying that young women don't do these things, but I don't believe these things are engaged in at the same rates as young men. I don't know about porn, but data strongly disagrees with this when it comes to gaming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Demographics_of_female_players https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Demograp...
- suicideSuicide 7y agoSuicide.
- 0x8BADF00D 7y agoThere is no longer an average, middle, median, etc. Hookup culture has consequences; before it was possible for an undesirable male to mate with a female, with the institution of marriage. So you end up with a society where everyone is unhappy. The hookup culture devalues the woman, competing for a slice of a shrinking desirable pool of men, while the undesirable men become angry and frustrated. But desirability is more about status IMO. Status can be decoupled from wealth and the economy. If you’re not playing the status game, even if you’re wealthy, women will not find you attractive.
- tachyonbeam 7y agoWhat's playing the status game? Expensive-looking clothes, being perceived as authoritative in some social circles?
- 0x8BADF00D 7y agoAll of that plus social media presence. A personal brand, if you will.
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- Melchizedek 7y agoNot everyone is unhappy. The top men are happy because they get a lot of easy sex. Many women are happy because they can spend their twenties having sex with very desirable men, and then settle down with an average man in their thirties
- deathIsNear 7y agoWatch what comes next.
- Sytten 7y agoI would be interested in having some stats by education level and profession. From my current personal experience as a CS student, I would say it is easily above 50%.
- manfredo 7y agoGenerally speaking, academic performance is inversely correlated with sex. In top universities the majority of students are virgins coming into university and a substantial percent (usually in the 25-50% range) are at graduation. Probably due to more time dedicated to study and career growth than relationships. Anecdotally, I've found that in tech and STEM more broadly rates of sex are lower - probably due to the overall gender imbalance means that the majority of people don't have potential partners in their primary social circles. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/09/harvards-class-2017-full-virgins-and-thats-okay/311342/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/09/harvard... https://thetech.com/2009/10/30/survey-v129-n49 https://thetech.com/2009/10/30/survey-v129-n49 Perhaps conforming to stereotype, apparently at MIT 42% of students overall are virgins while at fraternities this rate was 20%.
- pm90 7y agoSTEM is the worst social wise. You're correct that gender imbalances have a lot to do with this. There's also the fact that people who like STEM are generally social outcasts of some sort (nerds bullied in school, rarely the popular/cool kids).
- jjcc 7y agoWe've messed up many features created by mother nature with millions of years of evolution. We hijacked the purpose of enjoyment of having sex with the invention of condom so that individual intention now separated from that of mother natures. Wide spread of porn flushed the brains of a couple of selfish generations with overloading dopamine. The direct consequence is that their threshold of ecstasy become lower than a healthy level. The indirect consequence is the symptom passed on to the next generations due to epigenetics. [1] (human behaviors cause unintended consequences are not always limited to regime change) In other words: the current young people's enjoyment was consumed by their selfish parents addicted in porn. The solution? There should be many way to fix it. If we talk about culture, I speculated that Niqāb exists for some reason that we might not really understand. Evolution is so tricky when think about survival of the fittest, the fittest is not always the conclusion of our "rational" thinking. Claim: above ideas contain full of unscientific speculation with no proof. Viewer discretion is advised [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
- gnicholas 7y agoIn a way, this mirrors how technological advances have created winner-take-all markets in other areas. Thanks to CDs (and then the internet), we can now all listen to the very best musicians in the world — where previously we just had to settle for whoever was the best in our town. Similarly, technology may be shifting the dating/intimacy market toward a winners-take-most equilibrium, which favors the most attractive young men.
- tachyonbeam 7y agoThe internet and dating apps surely play a part. It's also become more acceptable to be non-monogamous. I lived in the bay area for a while and hung out among queer circles in San Francisco. It seemed like nearly everyone was polyamorous and uninterested in being in a monogamous relationship. So much that I felt kind of obligated to try the poly thing myself for a while if I was going to date. I am a little worried about the medium/long-term impact on society. Not because I find non-monogamy morally objectionable or something, but because having a stable long-term partner seems like it can be beneficial in helping people through hard times. It also seems to me that if a sizeable chunk of young men end up feeling undesirable, unwanted, and frustrated, the consequences won't be pretty, we all lose.
- abledon 7y agoKids like a stable environment to grow up in too — messes up their psychological development when there is a revolving door for new ‘daddys’ and ‘mommys’ . We are for promiscuity at certain stages of life but.... yes the costs haha
- jamescostian 7y agoI know this is true for divorce situations (probably because of the fighting), but I didn't know that polyamorous parents could mess up a child's psychological development. Any sources for this?
- mantas 7y ago
- ronnier 7y agoWhy are articles like these yanked so quickly from the front page of HN?
- freyir 7y agoI see at least two [flagged] comments. Do flagged comments cause the article to get buried?
- saagarjha 7y agoComments in general cause articles to rank lower.
- Melchizedek 7y agoWhich is strange, since that means a comment is also a down vote. That is surely not the intention of the commenter.
- dang 7y agoNot currently, no.
- novia 7y agoBecause people like me flag them. If you want an actual explanation: I am a woman and this does not match with my lived experiences. In fact, the article seems to dehumanize women in a lot of places. I'm really tired of the incel narrative and the sorts of moral arguments that come along with articles of this type in the comment section. Seeing us represented this way really stresses me out. I'm just here to learn about tech stuff, geez.
- anonytrary 7y agoI don't mean to belittle your decision to flag the article, but the flagging button is not a downvote button, and it is not there to hide things we personally disagree with. Flagging an article because it does not corroborate your personal experiences is somewhat irresponsible, especially for this community. There needs to be a better reason for flagging an article other than "my single data point says otherwise".
- enangel 7y agoHouellebecq predicted all of this.
- geewhizzz 7y agopretty tone deaf tbh
- patrickg_zill 7y agoThe reality is that about 50% or maybe as high as 80% of men are not attractive as sex partners to women who are able to have many choices. And young women are attractive to men of all ages... That is, the top 20% of men are the ones that are most desirable(however defined) . In the past the desire to have kids(and the result of needing the man to stick around), and the shame of being considered a slut if a woman's slept with many men, kept much of this in check.
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- ajkjk 7y agoDiscussions like this drive me crazy. It's not hard to see what it is about society that's making so many people not have sex, and it's not, like, some subtle market effect involving their attractiveness. No matter how much you want find a market effect, it's due to _human stuff_, like people's actual lives and problems, not their behavior in some sex economy. There is nothing even close to an economy around sex. There's just the real world. (This kind of) economics is valuable when it can tease out and explain underlying trends that you can't figure out from just looking at the world. But in this case, the only thing you'll be missing if you proceed by intuition is, like, numbers on the size of the effect. If you want to solve the problems at a societal level, while numbers are useful for prioritization, maybe, you're going to be trying to solve the actual problems that you identify with your human analysis. For instance living in this world provides me ample evidence to dismiss the line "It also won’t do to point to changes over this time period that effected all ages and genders similarly, such as obesity, porn, video games..." as laughable and clueless with, say, 99.99% confidence.
- throwaway20148 7y agoYou are free to break down your theory on what’s happening rather than mocking OPs methodology...
- Macross8299 7y ago>No matter how much you want find a market effect, it's due to _human stuff_, like people's actual lives and problems. There is nothing even close to an economy around sex This kind of wishy washy thing I'm sure feels nice to say but doesn't seem to me to have any real explanatory power except at an individual level, which is not what this discussion is about. I bet you anything that if I had access to tinder backend data and a couple of hours to mess around in Python, I could show you the similarity in the supposedly "non-existent" market forces there to well-studied phenomena in the world of economics and finance. Just imagine a lorenz curve describing the # of "swipes" a user gets!
- Mirioron 7y agoSomebody did actually create a Lorenz curve based on Tinder data: https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-guys-unless-you-are-really-hot-you-are-probably-better-off-not-wasting-your-2ddf370a6e9a https://medium.com/@worstonlinedater/tinder-experiments-ii-g... I can't speak to the accuracy of the article though.
- thatoneuser 7y agoIt's genuinely depressing to think that a large number of guys now has no access to explore intimacy and partnership (or very little). No one's owed sex of course but it's like we're breaking aspects of society. And I think you'd naturally find women are less able to find meaning themselves here so it's not just a men's pity party. I wonder, if this is a dating app phenomenon, if there's anything that can be done thats healthier for our society. Banning the apps isn't the right way, but is there some means of adding balance?
- abledon 7y agoEnforced communal participation in events — similar to having to file your taxes , you just participate in X number of community events in a X km region from your residence — would help people get off the screens and get outside in a context other than work. Similar to how In high school you need 40 hrs of community service to graduate Edit: ok not ‘enforced’ but there should be some sort of government incentive
- anonytrary 7y agoThe irony is that if you do this for the purposes of finding a date, then the efficient stay-at-home solution is to essentially just use Tinder, which optimizes the process, so we're full circle. Unless, of course, using Tinder unevenly weights physical attractiveness and going to community events more evenly weights other forms of attraction (which is probably the case), in which case going out more could be better than using Tinder for some people.
- abledon 7y agonot efficient in regards that there are many other positive aspects of venturing out and interacting with community. Increased serotonin and feel good emotions of interacting with real people. swiping screens sucks for that. And even if people fail to find a date, which many may do so if were comparing the side conversation of how dating websites have a 80/20 winner take all kind of matching system.... the people who don't find dates may find meaningful friendships and other types or relationships. In the west its sad that 'relationship' is charged with an intimate vibe, there are many other types of relationships humans can create which can be beneficial to ones mental and physical well being.
- jliptzin 7y agoI’d guess HD porn + addictive video games + ubereats plays a nontrivial role in keeping young men from leaving the house, and also keeping them out of shape, making it more difficult to find a partner even if they wanted to.
- skocznymroczny 7y agoWhat does leaving the house accomplish? It's not like you suddenly will interact with people. Most people organize through internet nowadays and stick to their cliques. Talk to someone on the public transport, you'd say. That also doesn't work, because most of these people are reading a book and have headphones on, which is a "don't touch me" signal to everyone around.
- dragonwriter 7y ago> It's not like you suddenly will interact with people Well, that depends where you go when you leave the house, but there are indeed still places where people interact with strangers in person and form relationships,both friendly and romantic, without online interaction starting it.
- michaelt 7y agoWhat does leaving the house accomplish? It's not like you suddenly will interact with people. Not all things that involve leaving the house involve meeting new people in person - but almost all the things that involve meeting new people in person involve leaving the house.
- hansflying 7y agoArtificial AI-driven-wife (for example "Geminoid F") with artificial womb would solve the problem.
- bm1362 7y agoI’m genuinely concerned that people seriously think this is a _solution_. Beyond sex, relationships with romantic partners are a complex, rewarding part of the human experience. How did that get lost to some?
- nyxxie 7y agoFor some it’s not easily achieved, so I’d suppose it’s less about dudes thinking “meh, this is more convenient” than dudes thinking “meh, I’m not getting laid anyways”
- Cthulhu_ 7y agoYou say rewarding, but for a lot of people it's an incomprehensible minefield. I mean where do you even start?
- krapp 7y agoHumans have been working it out for a million years or so, it isn't that difficult. If someone considers relationships with other people to be an "incomprehensible minefield," then the problem is with them, not the nature of human relationships. Too many people overthink things, seeing each potential relationship as a puzzle to be solved, or searching for some general purpose sexual algorithm for which they can provide the inputs and recieve sexual or emotional fulfillment, or they expect hostility and deception and treat dating like an interrogation. And of course some people just don't have empathy for the opposite sex and don't understand social boundaries or cues.
- CompanionCuuube 7y ago> If someone considers relationships with other people to be an "incomprehensible minefield," then the problem is with them, not the nature of human relationships. Is it a reasonable position to tell a disabled person who considers a society with no handicap accessibility that the problem is them, not with the nature of society?
- jamescostian 7y agoAsk a heterosexual woman in that age range about how many awful conversations she's had with men in that age range via dating apps. She won't say "a few", she'll say "A LOT", and be able to show that the vast majority of messages she gets are either very dry or insanely forward (sexually). If you're a great-looking guy and you can't start or hold a good conversation, you can still get laid on the basis of looks. But if you don't look good, you don't get those grace points. I've seen guys (who look much better than I do) fail at getting laid on dating apps after LOADS of attempts, and despite being their friend, I must say the messages they've shown me are AWFUL. Not just "this isn't that great", but "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING???". When I was single (despite my looks), I found it really easy to get dates and get laid using dating apps, because I could actually hold conversations. And I know others just like me, who've gotten similar results.
- black-tea 7y agoYes. Don't forget that the male IQ bell curve is wider than the female one. The most intelligent people in the world are men. The stupidest people in the world are men too.
- skocznymroczny 7y agoOn the other hand, there are multiple experiments with people creating a male profile with a photo of an attractive guy and sending explicitly sexual and vulgar messages as an introduction and still getting a lot of replies and phone numbers. At some point of attractiveness a guy can start the conversation with "I'd love to slide it in you" and the girl will reply with "hihi ok :) 123-456-789" rather than "leave me alone perv".
- namarie 7y agoGot any source for that?
- oneshotthrowawa 7y agoNot an easy read: https://i.imgur.com/HO430mM.jpg https://i.imgur.com/HO430mM.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4WPshhw.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4WPshhw.jpg This has been done many, many times. The keyword is "chadfishing"
- black-tea 7y agoIt's interesting that every comment here is now on board with what groups like "incels" and "MRAs" been saying for years. These groups are often called "hate groups", but now more and more stats are coming out it seems more people agree with them (I have always agreed with them, by the way). Nobody has yet mentioned another potentially large driver, though. That is the abundance of Internet porn that is available from a young age now. There are men who have grown up being able to watch any kind of porn they can imagine. Having sex is a lot of effort and not really worth it if you're already overwhelmed with all the women you could want from the comfort of your own bedroom.
- saagarjha 7y ago> These groups are often called "hate groups" That's because they their members often have no idea of how to be in a meaningful relationship (but feel entitled to their distorted view of how it should look like) and treat women like objects.
- snrji 7y agoThey are considered hate groups because they admittedly hate women. Their diagnosis could be right, though.
- lumberjack 7y agoYou have to be careful not to burden yourself with unnecessary ideology. It is fine to notice the patterns in society and ask questions, but incels and MRAs come with their own unsubstantiated explanations for why this is, and what to do about it. This is not fine. They are basically cults. Moreover, they are constantly being infiltrated and hijacked by political propagandists to leverage the built up anger for unrelated political purposes. Plus, you have to be careful not to get dragged into a spiral of depressive pessimism. Plus, if all of that was not bad enough, there are trolls on those forums egging people on and taking pleasure in the desperation of others.
- black-tea 7y agoYou're absolutely right. But my comment was more about how people used to dismiss everything those groups said, but it turns out a lot of it is right.
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- cousin_it 7y agoClearly caused by the same (unknown) thing that's been causing the double-digit decline in testosterone levels of Western men for the last few decades, regardless of job market or dating apps or whatever. So I'm leaning toward physiological explanation, not social.
- anonytrary 7y agoI don't know either, but I would not make this guess, because cultural evolution tends to happen at a much faster pace than physiological (biological?) evolution. Physiology will not change much in 20 years, but culture could change drastically in the same timeframe.
- Mirioron 7y agoThere has been a significant population level decrease in testosterone in men. It's at around 1.2% per year when adjusted by age.[0] Similar effects have been found in other countries too. I think this is what he means when he says physiological. [0] https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434
- bm1362 7y agoThat study had roughly 3k participants, from the Boston area. In my opinion, the are more than probably many factors that influence testosterone production and that’s not sufficient evidence to declare a population-wide crisis.
- casefields 7y agohttps://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-the-man-your-father-was/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhowe/2017/10/02/youre-not-t... There are studies linked there.
- cousin_it 7y agoWasn't talking about evolution, was talking about stuff in the environment (food, plastics, etc) that affects physiology.
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- keiferski 7y agoThis is not news to anyone who has been following the changes in gender dynamics in the past ~15 years. Without giving an opinion on any side: there is (and will continue to be) growing instability when inequalities (relationship, wealth, or otherwise) result in a large portion of the population disaffected. Historically the solution to this particular problem has been enforced monogamy + the risk of pregnancy. Clearly that is no longer an option in the West, as sexual attitudes have become more open and birth control is widely available. It remains to be seen what the end result will be this time around. Personally I think that technology will try (and largely fail) to address this imbalance. Think of K's "girlfriend" in Blade Runner 2049. This seems to be the route we as a society are heading toward. A civilization of hyper-individuals that attempt to fulfill all social and human needs through market-based product solutions.
- Cthulhu_ 7y agoI think Japan is leading in this trend, or, that's what I'm hearing about; a lot of people who prefer to be stuck indoors, or work for most of the day. Actually I don't think they prefer it, but what is the alternative? Anyway the result of that is a decline in birth rates which will eventually lead to stabilizing or decreasing population. Which I think, in theory, is fine as long as it's stable for a long period of time and evenly distributed among age cohorts (which isn't the case in Japan). In practice though, the current economy is trained for a constant population increase; a lot of countries rely on immigration to maintain said population (and economic) increase.
- tvh 7y agoJordan Peterson, is that you? :D
- keiferski 7y agoHah, no. I think Dr. Peterson certainly makes some interesting points regarding these topics, but his solution seems to be a return to a pre-21st century model of societal values. I don't believe that this is tenable - the cat is already out of the bag and the Pandora's box of technology can't be closed.
- apexalpha 7y agoPerhaps off-topic, but if someone here on HN is from Saudi-Arabia or a similar country: How does this work in societies where rich/succesful males can have multiple women? Are there simply a bunch of leftover men? Or is the number of men who have multiple women today too small to make a dent? Assuming there's 50/50 men/women there too...
- MattLeBlanc001 7y agoI'm a muslim/arab. You can have multiple wives even if you are not rich or just look average. I would say the majority of men stick to monogamy (90% probably). Having more than one wife comes with a lot of restrictions such as: - All your wives have an automatic stake in your inheretence. In islam you can't choose who inherits what, its already set in place for you. - All your wives need to be provided for by yourself. Even if they are rich. You as a male are required to provide for your wife and Children - Be just between you wives. You bought a house for one? buy the same for the others. You took your first wife on holidays? same for the others. The quran state that you need to be just, but argues that you might not be able to achieve justice all the time. Most people I know who have a second wife have specific reasons for doing so. For example a guy in my family had his wife choose his second wife for him. She couldn't have any babies and he was adamant to have kids. She agreed to stay with him, but only if she was involved in choosing his second wife for him. They have two houses one next to the other, and the kids play more with his first wife than with their mum. For monogamy in general, arab men have it really somehow easy to get married. You just need to have a job and look somehow acceptable. There is no dating culture as in the west. You wouldn't find a man and his girlfriend living together and trying things out for a few years before deciding to marry. You get to know your future wife and meet with her (between a few months to a year most likely) and then decide to get married. Having sex before marriage is frowned upon, but doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Most women in the muslim/arab world are actually looking to build a family and have kids. Not all of them agree to you having a second wife.
- TicklishTiger 7y agoI'm often surprised that there is not more discussion about hacking the sexual market place on Hacker News. We talk a lot about growth hacking and hacking technical systems. Hacking in the meaning of "Using intelligent, unusual approaches to gain an advantage over the typical approach". Yet for sexual market place it's completely silence here on HN.
- Cthulhu_ 7y agoTinder is mentioned a lot; I'm not sure what else you have in mind. Not every problem is solved by throwing technology and/or money at it.
- distant_hat 7y agoIts something not done in polite circles. The whole of PUA culture is about hacking the sexual market. A bunch of it delves into things that are thought of as distasteful.
- maxkwallace 7y agoReading through the comments, there's a shared narrative that emerges: Tinder, etc. leads to a skewed distribution of access to sexual partners based on attractiveness, which leads to unattractive men not having as many partners, which leads to pick-your-favorite-bad-consequence. And there are a lot of men in this thread feeling worried and depressed about this. While it's certainly true that you get more matches on Tinder if you're attractive, this overall narrative is vastly oversimplified, and the conclusions drawn from it are inaccurate. It's the result of men projecting male attitudes onto women's behavior. I understand that it's easy to feel resentful. I don't fault anyone inherently for this-- these are complex issues, there are exceptions to every generalization, and it's difficult to judge because it's hard to experience the dating "market" through different eyes. But before you buy into that narrative, take a moment to think about what it's like for women. I'll indulge in some generalizations (yes there are exceptions) because brevity is of the essence. Compared to men: - Women care less about physical attractiveness - Women are less interested in hookups and enjoy them less - Women are more interested in romantic and emotional connections and long-term relationships Do you really think the majority of women are happy with the recent societal changes in dating? It's not hard to find thinkpieces written by women lamenting these issues. I haven't met a single woman who was happy with it. And I've heard many bad date stories from my female friends and my own dates. One article described it as "searching for a diamond in a sea of dick pics". And you have to worry about physical violence or men who treat you like an object and try to run some PUA algorithm on you. Maybe you believe that some women are doing things you don't condone. But can you honestly blame them? No one's perfect, dating is a shitty and exhausting experience for everyone. As a man it's easy to fixate on physical attractiveness because we notice and care about it more. But I assure you, once you meet your date in person your looks stop mattering (as long as you didn't lie) and at that point it's up to your personality. There are a lot of women who'd be excited to date a decent and kind man who's willing to explore some level of emotional commitment without trying to "keep it casual". Explaining these changes purely on the basis of an attractiveness/status market is a cop-out for men who are too insecure to confront whether they're actually enjoyable people to be around. I see a lot of proto-incel thoughts in this thread. That shit is a downward spiral, you need to pull yourself together and get out of it before you internalize how physically "unattractive" you supposedly are. Once the incel ideology destroys your self-confidence and skews your outlook on the world you will actually become an unattractive person even if you look fine physically.
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- dosy 7y agoFirst, I think it's interesting to put some error bars on the actual numbers. One, it's from the Post, so their pro "feminist" bias could skew toward narratives (Young men driving the decline in sex) that emphasize declining male potency. Two, this is "US people" so it's limited to one culture. Second, to explain the effect, I offer the following two theories: - degraded sexual endocrinology. Hormones are very important in arousal and libido so this is likely the biggest effect. - society punishing male sexuality. The low evidence standard (in the court of public opinion) to female fake accusers, creates substantial risk for men. Under this theory, the age group effect can be explained as bigger on the young, who are still forming their attitudes about sex and observing society's discourse, than on older people who came of age in a less risky era. It's unclear to me how "downregulating sex" by social / hormonal mechanisms is affected by the massive viewership of porn. The other most interesting theories I think are the economic ones (changing income), because sexual biology is intimately wired with resources seeking in our brains, in ways more pronounced for women than for men.
- qwsxyh 7y agoThe real thing I've learned from this comment section is that Hacker News is full of incels. Maybe if men stop acting so shitty they'd get more sex?
- stupidthrowaway 7y agoImplication that people who don't agree with you are all "incels", broad-brushed insult aimed at men -- plus a side of victim blaming. lol
- prittgluestick 7y agoYup, if you are having dating difficulties, then you are a a man and definitely a jerk. There is no other way about it.
- prittgluestick 7y agoI struggled with sexlessness as a young man, even before the rise of popular dating apps. I've a history of self esteem issues directly related to my own attractiveness. Most of this was from my religious upbringing, being sheltered from people my own age and knowledge of sex, and being punished for girls being attracted to me. Now, as a young man who has gone through counseling, I have begun to have success in dating within the last two years. I've gone on about 25 dates last year, more than my entire life put together before. I even had sex twice last year, which I had never had before. One time was horrible, but the other time was genuinely wonderful. I loved cuddling in eachother's arms and talking about what was deep and meaningful and lovely within our own lives. I remember the feelings of worthlessness, looking at statistics from online dating websites and population studies, remembering the hundreds of women who weren't interested, comparing myself with other men who were genuinely horrible, cowardly, and lazy people being very successful sexually from a young age, speaking with friends who were girls who complained that their lives were hard because they hadn't had sex in so long (2 months). Add onto this, there is a stigma of being extra-broken or unclean or an 'incel' if you have these problems. The reality is this: most of the dating advice, from various sources, given to young men now doesn't work. Young men are given few other options other than rehashed 'self improvement' lectures, dating-game philosophies from pua, or arranged marriages. It's no wonder to me why young men my age are buying into some crazy nutcase ideas like government-given girlfriends. The reality is that no other genuinely dating-helpful options are being given to young men. What helped me was slowly loving my life whether or not there was a lady present, not really caring about what people I don't know think about me, and most importantly getting out more and interacting with more people. I am not sure that this would work as well for everyone I know though. Dating is still extremely hard for many young men. Counselors need to be ready to deal with this as an increasing issue. Solutions and answers need to be found and given to young men rather than casting them out or patronizing them.
- blockmarker 7y agoI'm glad that you achieved a better life. I agree, one should love their life regardless of whether they have a girlfriend or not. However, I don't believe you are the type of people we are talking about. You say "being punished for girls being attracted to me", which implies that you were already attractive. It might have helped you because you were already physically attractive. The problem is for those who aren't (and aren't able or willing to get surgery). If physical attractiveness is so important, many men, including myself, might not be able to do anything. Not get a girlfriend, nor get just sex, which is still important. Can you ask any trusted friend to tell you how attractive you are? I would love that you are average or below and still have success. In any case, your solution seems to me to be a good idea even if you don't get laid. If I might ask, how did you do that? Changing my mentality and habits is something I've not had much success in doing.
- ptah 7y agoor maybe respondents are just more honest nowadays
- x0re4x 7y ago> Explaining Sex Rate Changes "An ironic side-effect of feminism is to free men from the burden of being the head of the house." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPETpCVrH9Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPETpCVrH9Y "Why you can't find a man: Hypergamy Floats" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWpmd1yjVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UWpmd1yjVc
- x0re4x 7y agoBriffault's Law: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaFJ18aENkc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaFJ18aENkc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6wvHSMmzY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W6wvHSMmzY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqSCRnrq5I0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqSCRnrq5I0 Some more: "More" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud3PgQ_y170 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud3PgQ_y170 "No Eligible Men" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTxP7fPMnK4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTxP7fPMnK4 "Seeing the hook" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv4jnWYCuEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv4jnWYCuEs "Remaining unplugged" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KfQIEAGqhg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KfQIEAGqhg "Hiding in morals" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBslYOWiJlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBslYOWiJlI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnWV4Yy6dOs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnWV4Yy6dOs But hey, it may be just porn and videogames after all... who knows...
- zimablue 7y agoIf you accept the premises: free information leads to higher female promiscuity aimed at top % males Lower % males will always be aware of this At some point this leads to increased violence and conflict There's no way to put any of this back into the bottle (how can you enforce cultural (or even enforced) monogamy given free information and anonymous encounters? It's harder than trying to prevent people doing drugs, incel fantasies aside. The closest thing to a way out is to try and change the culture of sex as power and status and deconstruct the whole thing somehow? (As in all you change point 3, get low status guys to care less). It seems difficult though, it's beyond politically incorrect to say but I can't imagine guys ever being happy to know that they were a compromise choice by their girlfriend who had to really prove himself after 10 years of sleeping with men far more attractive than them that just had to swipe. Hard to see outside your own culture though, maybe that will just become accepted.
- fre3k 7y agoThat last sentiment is very prominent in the incel/red pill "communities". They have some inside-baseball names for it, but essentially they do express their extreme disdain for women who have sex with lots of men then decide to "settle down" with a provider.
- zimablue 7y agoYeah it's absolutely an incel meme but do no means do I think that they invented it or that it's unique to them. I think almost all men have this feeling to some extent, I think it's a rare guy who is happy to know that every good looking guy in his office slept with his girlfriend casually. Proximity (time, location, social circle) is definitely an aggravating factor but it's all just a sliding scale. I like to think that I mostly don't care about a girl's past but it's definitely annoying on some level of the sliding scale.
- gfiorav 7y agoIn my case, I’ve always found partners (including my wife with whom I’ve been in a strong relationship for 8 years) in gatherings with friends and friends of friends. I would absolutely DREAD today’s dating scene through a screen. Maybe older men do it the old way? I don’t know, this is one revolution I hope regresses. If you’re young and looking, I’d suggest you try to mix and match your circle with your friends’ circles and hope for the best.
- monetus 7y agoHow many times have your circles imploded?
- gfiorav 7y agoNot really imploded, but people change and stuff gets re-arranged. It's ok. Like forgetting peeps. Also ok. No need to keep friends around forever like Facebook and social media imply. I maybe have 5 friends that I've known for more than 15 years... those remain. The rest can flow.
- monetus 7y agoThanks for the response, sorry if I was being too nosy. The value of permanence, or the lack of it, seems worth consideration in this context.
- burneraccount12 7y agoBurner account to describe my experience. Late 30s male software developer - my long-term, live-in gf dumped me a few months ago and I got on the dating apps. Holy cow. I get dozens of "matches" every single day on Bumble and Hinge, it's overwhelming. Don't even bother with Tindr or OKC (I tried OKC for a week and I had literally over 900+ "likes"). I'm not saying this rub it in anyone's face, just to confirm the hypothesis of many in this thread: the dating apps have redistributed matches to the top 20%. I have friends and coworkers who are totally normal, regular-looking dudes and they barely get any matches -- my results piss them off so much they won't even talk to me about dating anymore. I'm a decent-looking person but no male model and not rich, I can't even imagine how much more intense it is at that level. That being said, I don't like the apps and wish there was a different way. Some kind of combination of internet matching and speed dating so you didn't have to waste days of your life endlessly texting or drop hundreds of dollars buying drinks (and/or dinner) for women who text you after the fact that they're not interested. Not that anyone feels bad for me, but even getting a ton of responses it's not a process I enjoy either.
- stupidthrowaway 7y agohumblebrag detected
- burneraccount12 7y agoSay what you will. I would have preferred to have stayed with my ex-gf. Internet dating is not fun for me either, but again I'm not looking for sympathy -- just to tell you that the hypothesis people are advancing seems correct from my POV.
- black-tea 7y agoAll good things come to an end. You fucked her and she'll only get less attractive from here on out.
- sridca 7y agoSex is not the be all and end all of living an awesome life. Just because blind nature created you rife with the instinctual passion of desire does not mean you have to live as a slave to it. Channel that desire into hobbies that are actually interesting to you, and enjoy life. Sex, intimacy, relationships, marriage and the like do not automatically guarantee you happiness, as perfectly illustrated by this masterpiece: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0147612/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0147612/
- papermill 7y agoSex, food and shelter are necessary conditions for an "awesome life" for most people. You could argue they aren't sufficient and you need more ( like spirituality, community, etc ), but it's disingenuous to dismiss it as an unnecessary condition that you could distract yourself with hobbies. Response to (sridca): Yes, I'm well aware of the difference between need and desire. But you can't have an "awesome life" if your major desires ( food, shelter and sex ) aren't met. Also, I said sex is a necessary condition for most people to live an "awesome life", not all people. You misread that part. And by most people, I mean everyone barring the exceptional minority with physical or genetic ailments. Can you live without sex? Sure. Can you live an "awesome life" without sex. I highly doubt it. But people are willing to rationalize anything I guess. Food, sex and shelter are pretty much our biological imperatives. Not sure how you can live an "awesome life" without your basic natural desires being met. But if you are happy living a sexless life, then all the best to you. This is a difference of opinion that we are just going to live with.
- sridca 7y agoDo you know the difference between need and desire? Can you comprehend how desiring sex is different to needing food and shelter? It is true that most people, as you indicate, are apparently unable to live an awesome life without sex in horizon. But that does not automatically make sex a "necessary condition" for an awesome life. > Not sure how you can live an "awesome life" without your basic natural desires being met. A desire, unlike a need, is not set in stone. Aggression is a "basic natural" instinctual passion too; does that mean you are rendered incapable of living an awesome life without going about killing your fellow human beings? It is clear that you are not "well aware" of the difference between a desire and a need.
- ufo 7y agoThe ammount of borderline incel rethoric in this discussion thread is concerning.
- tomohawk 7y ago1) Internet porn is training young men to have sex with fantasy images, making sex with a real partner an alien concept. 2) People are way more engaged with screens than in person 3) Masculinity is labeled 'toxic', etc. Young men are not getting the support/encouragement/mentoring they need.
- louisswiss 7y agoCan you expand the third point a bit? I hear people talk about this a lot, but don't understand what it actually means. For example, what kind of support/encouragement/mentoring did men previously get that they no longer enjoy, and how would it have an effect on sex rates?
- tomohawk 7y agoYou can see this where it is acceptible to have all female organizations or institutions, but unacceptable to have similar organizations or institutions for males. Similarly, there are many programs specifically targeting women for certain careers, such as STEM. The result is that increasingly there is a "gender gap" favoring women at university. https://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2013/jan/29/how-many-men-and-women-are-studying-at-my-university https://www.theguardian.com/education/datablog/2013/jan/29/h...
- tomjakubowski 7y ago> Masculinity is labeled 'toxic' Not true and a willful misinterpretation of the phrase "toxic masculinity".
- tosca 7y agoBecause young men are chronically watching hardcore pornography (produced in morally-depraved state of California)which trains them to think that they could never possibly compete with that big black d*ck hammering white womens butts and therefore could never possibly genuinely satisfy a woman.
- alexandercrohde 7y agoWhy is nobody mentioning the potential biological basis for this? Men's sperm counts are going down 3% a year and have been consistently for over 30 years. Nobody knows exactly why, but environmental contamination through "xenoestrogens" (e.g. BPA in receipt paper) is a major theory. This is no freak trend and has been researched by over a thousand papers with no good answer (so don't reply with a pet hypothesis like exercise-- it's not). 1. https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/10/sperm-counts-continue-to-fall/572794/ https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/10/sperm-cou... 2. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=sperm+decline+men&btnG= https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C33&q=spe...
- whateveracct 7y agoSoy boy theory!
- sticky_thrrwwwy 7y agoAnecdote: Take it with a grain of salt as a mid 20's male in the dating scene Maybe it's me, but I get the feeling that even if I improve myself (start hobbies, go to the gym more, etc) That will not be enough to secure a serious relationship because its so much easier for partners to 'upgrade' and find someoene else. There are fewer incentives to stick it out and build on a relationship, not unlike how the norm for getting a raise is to change jobs (instead of company loyalty)
- ohboyherewego 7y agoI work in Seattle and live in Bellevue. Recently I noticed a simply massive surge in Chinese workers, the last two to four years the FANG companies seem to have pulled in a tremendous number of Chinese labor, or the Chinese have simply had enough money to migrate and liked the real estate situation in Seattle better than Vancouver. It has gotten to a point here where a significant portion of couples are either Asian Male / White Female or Asian Female / White Male. The first category is unusual. It used to be that Asian men and white women here didn’t really get together, but now it has become much more common. The second has been going on for a long time. While the native US residents are playing this game of Hot or Not on apps and then getting either too old or too far to settle down competitively, the Chinese women who still seem to value white or American men, even the super nerdy ones, are picking up the slack. My wife is from Taiwan. I remember how incredibly polite and nice she was to me from the moment we met, something I have NEVER experienced from American women. I’m not the best looking dude, but I pull down nearly $400,000 a year. Other men I know, who have attended Ivy League schools yet are not considered desireable due to their super nerdy personalities, Chinese women seem to find them acceptable while equivalent American women don’t really care. I don’t have any judgement about what is going on, but one thing I am certain of: Either American women learn to enjoy nerds again or all the babies in Seattle will be mixed, and it seems to be a trend well underway already.
- fao_ 7y agoI ask some right-wing young men and they'll tell me, they believe in survival of the fittest and darwinian society. The same young men then tell me, that I should be worried about race-mixing, and I should be worried that most men are not having sex. This is, quite frankly, a fascinating duality of thought.