18 ms·

Appl Still Hasn’t Fixd Its MacBook Kyboad Problm

185 points by velmu 8y ago

jdsully 8y ago
They should have done one paragraph without the Es and Rs to make the point and then had it read as normal. I bet a lot of would be readers aren't bothering with this otherwise good article because of it.
- gschrader 8y ago
  There's a toggle in each section, that said I wish I noticed the toggle switch before I read the complete article myself.
rb808 8y ago
I really hate the keyboard on most laptops. XPS's I don't like and new macbooks seem the worst. Anyone recommend any? Thinkpads seem good, and many HPs.
- devashish86 8y ago
  Have worked on Mac's, XPS's and HP's in the past but once I got on Thinkpad, never looked back. My current system(for past 5 years now) is a trusty X1 Carbon that has seen some rough times but has never failed me. Thinking of upgrading later this year to a newer version of the same line.
  - pbrb 8y ago
    Go for it - I went with an X1C6 as a replacement for my old macbook pro, and I couldn't be happier. Excellent keyboard and no issues running linux. The only setting I've changed from my default ubuntu was to install and use the kde plasma desktop to avoid scaling issues, and it's perfect. You'll love the form factor as well.
  - asark 8y ago
    How's the touchpad? What's kept me on Apple is the ability to actually use the MacBook Pro as a portable computer, not just a crappy desktop you can drag between the power and mouse+keyboard stations that you need to get work done without swearing at it constantly or frowning while you watch the battery life indicator plummet. The keyboard and port situations are both pushing the MacBook far enough out of that "close the lid and go, no worries" sweet spot it used to fall so solidly into that I'm eyeing other options, but I have some very bad memories of both battery life and trackpads on non-Apple machines, and my (limited!) interactions with such more recently haven't made me optimistic.
    - devashish86 8y ago
      I admit that the touchpad isn't as smooth and gesture driven as the mac but I'm not the user those are really meant for. I spend most of my time on the keyboard writing code and living in the "cloud" which makes using mouse a drag anyway. So all I'm looking for is a powerful machine that doesn't hog resources on useless stuff, with sturdy keyboard(physical keys please, none of that touch bar BS), can support dual/multi boot and works with all the peripherals I need. Thinkpads work better than most without the significant price overhead. One of my dystopian future scenarios has no Thinkpad's in it :D
    - BuckRogers 8y ago
      Just to offer another perspective on the battery front, that only really matters for casual browsing. Anytime real work is done on a machine, you'll be plugging in within a few hours on everything anyway. If you're doing CPU/IO intensive development work, they all fall down so quickly that I don't think it matters on the differences. It's really a browsing/videos metric, which is relatively unimportant to me when buying a workstation class laptop. I don't think I'd buy any laptop based on battery life as a primary factor, and the overall usability situation for most stuff on the market isn't as grave as it used to be (which your post accurately recalls). I've owned the XPS15 with 6-core 8th gen Intel (maxing out the scales at 97Wh battery) and have a Thinkpad X1 Extreme. I've had MBPs in the past too. For the touchpad on Thinkpads, I think they're pretty good if you're on Windows, most are anymore with MS Windows Precision drivers as the Thinkpads use. For me, a major driver for me towards these is the Trackpoint. Depending on your usecase, my favorite machines on the market today are the X1 Extreme (development), X1 Yoga (consulting/development), Samsung Notebook 9 Pen 13" (home), and Macbook Air (home).
  - tfandango 8y ago
    I've been using an X1 Yoga (1st gen) for almost 3 years and it's been great as well. I would probably go Carbon next time as I don't use the yoga function that often. But I don't think I could switch to anything else after using this laptop keyboard (and if it breaks I can just replace it myself).
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  I thought Apple's laptop keyboards were great prior to the butterfly era. They never felt quite as good as their old desktop keyboards—which were and are my favorite—but more than adequate for a laptop.
  - asark 8y ago
    I had to briefly use a Macbook two designs old a while back—the thicker aluminum kind, that could still accommodate a disc drive—and wow, I'd forgotten how much better that keyboard was than the one after, even, let alone the loud-as-hell, uncomfortable butterfly ones. It felt great—probably about as good as a laptop keyboard could be. I want that kind back. The tiny bit of extra travel and slightly softer action made a huge difference.
- jeffFrom18F 8y ago
  I've enjoyed the keyboard on my System76 laptop. Granted that's a special case since they're not for everyone (Linux-focused). I've found most laptop keyboards at least adequate, the MacBook that I'm forced to use for work is the first one that is objectively terrible. I've been told the ones <= 2015 were better in the keyboard department.
  - rb808 8y ago
    Thanks, they weren't on my radar. Some nice laptops, damn this one's a beast https://system76.com/laptops/serval https://system76.com/laptops/serval
- zeusk 8y ago
  Try a surface book, surface laptop is pretty good too. (I dislike the keyboard covers for pro - too much flex and too little travel).
- throwaway082729 8y ago
  I got a Pixelbook last week and have been using it as my everyday laptop for the last few days. Hands-down best keyboard I've used in a long time, probably better than the older Macbook ones.
  - jordanthoms 8y ago
    Yeah I don't know where that Pixelbook keyboard came from (does Google have people engineering keyboards?) but it's crazy good. Thin, too - so no excuse for Apple's new keyboards.
    - throwaway082729 8y ago
      Clearly, whoever designed the Pixelbook keyboard talked to real users. I wish I could dual boot to Ubuntu on this machine.
- EnderMB 8y ago
  The keyboard on the Surface Book is very good, and is still good even after constant use.
- ncr100 8y ago
  Dell Alienware - "baller" would be my technical judgement. Long key travel, large layout. Makes programming comfortable again. Gaming laptops in general seem to be nearly "no compromise" products. Battery life is as good as it can be - they max-out the watt-hours permitted by airlines. Keyboards can be massive. Screens, sound systems. Recently the weight has been reduced through clever hardware engineering: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-alienware-area-51m/spd/alienware-17-area51m-laptop/wnser7cr5101h https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-alienware-a...
  - wyclif 8y ago
    You know there's something wrong with the "pro" laptop market (and with Apple) when engineers start moving to "gaming laptops" to get serious work done.
    - 0815test 8y ago
      It's a marketing term. Many "gaming" laptops are quite well-built and it would be silly to ignore them, even for "real work". (Unless you need the sort of reliability that can only be had by moving to Xeon/EPYC cpus, ECC memory and Quadro/FirePro graphics, of course.)
      - wyclif 8y ago
        Oh, I agree totally. That's why I put "gaming laptop" in quotes. I could care less what they're called; as long as it's better as a development laptop than a MacBook Pro I'm interested ;-)
        rb808 8y ago
        At nearly 9 pounds maybe we should put "laptop" in quotes. :)
- bashinator 8y ago
  I switched to a ThinkPad after many years of using MacBooks, and it has just a lovely keyboard to use. The tactile response is very similar to Cherry MX Brown switches (quiet, but still has that "click" feel).
- bproven 8y ago
  Thinkpads are great (T series) - Especially like the carbon X1s as they work great with Linux. It has been my primary driver for a while now with zero issues.
js2 8y ago
Apple keyboard related tale, though not an Apple butterfly keyboard: I had to call Apple support yesterday to register an AppleCare Protection Plan agreement. The way this works is you first get routed to someone who takes some notes about your case, then that person sends you to the correct specialist. Anyway, after waiting on hold a short while (Apple lets you choose your genre of on-hold music or wait in silence... though normally they call you but for some reason they kept getting my voice mail so I had to call them), the woman who picked up starting asking me for information. Thwack, thwack, thwack I hear as she’s typing, like fire crackers going off. Eventually I couldn’t take it anymore so I said: “that is not an Apple Keyboard you’re typing on!” “Nope,” she said. “I spilled water on my Apple keyboard earlier today and it stopped working, so I pulled out this old PC keyboard I had. But I hate it. I texted my husband and asked him to go buy me a new Apple keyboard.” (It seemed like she was working from home.) So I told her some people really prefer those mechanical switch keyboards, that they probably wouldn’t stop working from a bit of water, but maybe her Apple keyboard would start working again when it dried out. “I hope so,” she said, “Because I really prefer it for typing and my husband balked at the $100 cost of a new Apple keyboard.” (Obviously she meant an external Magic keyboard and not a MacBook PoS keyboard.) (Aside: I’d consider it a public service if the WSJ would make this article available for free. I love the toggle switches! I was unable to make an outline.com link but I could read it by following the link from a Google search in an incognito window.)
- draw_down 8y ago
  Their standalone keyboard is my favorite keyboard I've ever used, simple and very nice (but still with keys for volume control and playback control). I've never used the MacBooks with the keyboards people hate so much.
- culturestate 8y ago
  > It seemed like she was working from home Significant portions of their phone support staff work remotely; they’re called at-home advisors. Seems to be a really well-run program. https://www.apple.com/jobs/us/aha.html https://www.apple.com/jobs/us/aha.html
  - 8y ago
ksec 8y ago
Thank You Apple. Finally you have the courage to admit it. ( Although in both cases they were under the pressure of media and press ) Unfortunately the extended warranty programme [1] still does not include MacBook 2018. Now they have acknowledge it, at least there is hope this will change. I could never understand why Apple don't have some internal guidelines on it, even if it was out of warranty they could have fix it for free as Standard Procedure, without actually admitting it was a problem. Instead they try to charge people outrageous repair price on it. Keyboard, TB3 Charging, Internal Display Connector, Trackpad False positives, and numbers other small things I can't remember. I am hoping 2019 Apple will have a MacBook Pro redesign that fixes all of these issues. [1] https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...
- MarHoff 8y ago
  Also please read this fine lines it might be very interesting for some: >If you believe your MacBook or MacBook Pro was affected by this issue, and you paid to have your keyboard repaired, you can contact Apple about a refund.
- asdff 8y ago
  > I am hoping 2019 Apple will have a MacBook Pro redesign that fixes all of these issues. I hope so too, but I'm not optimistic unless there are leadership changes. They've triple downed on this and it's still an issue. We definitely won't see scissor keys again, Apple isn't going to undermine their narrative like that, but I hope whatever comes after the butterfly was developed in a completely separate building than wherever they house the butterfly keyboard team. Poor engineering from the start, embarrassing half measures since, Jobs would have cleared house years ago.
yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
Sad the article is behind a paywall. This is a topic I care about. The penultimate generation MacBook Air keyboard is still my favourite typing device, and it’s what I use today. I would pay Apple double the price of their current MacBook for the same thing but with the old keyboard, and the MagSafe connector.
- js2 8y ago
  Try the web link at the top of the page in an incognito window then click through from the Google search results. It worked for me.
  - tuxone 8y ago
    There are also extensions that automatize that (firefox one https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox)
  - therealmarv 8y ago
    ah, copy the title and search it via Google worked out (using the link in Google search did not worked).
- ams6110 8y ago
  You would pay Apple 2x their price for already overpriced hardware, but won't pay the WSJ for reporting on a topic you "care about" ?
  - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
    I spend most of my day, on most days, working on the one machine I own. It’s the one physical tool I use for my entire livelihood. I can’t say the same for the WSJ.
- villgax 8y ago
  Check out the new Razer Blade 15, good aluminium build, battery life & keyboard(save for shift key position).
thomasjudge 8y ago
Wow, in the WSJ. That'll get some attention from Apple management
- thomasjudge 8y ago
  Favorite line: "It’s time to stop prioritizing thinness over usability."
  - api 8y ago
    Yeah, this is like 90% of it. They passed the point of diminishing returns from thin/light back in the early 20-teens, especially for "Pro" laptops. For a pro laptop I want power, battery life, and durability far more than thin/light.
  - pier25 8y ago
    This is the very old Apple problem of design over function. Sometimes they get it right, but when they don't it's a real disaster.
- skoskie 8y ago
  Already has. https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18284042/apple-macbook-keyboard-apology-issues-bad-design https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18284042/apple-macbook-ke...
  - Hamuko 8y ago
    >“We are aware that a small number of users are having issues with their third-generation butterfly keyboard and for that we are sorry,” an Apple spokesman told Stern in a statement. “The vast majority of Mac notebook customers are having a positive experience with the new keyboard.” Doubt it. Both me and my manager have 2016 MacBook Pros and we both have had issues. I at least have randomly repeating B's. Not sure what my manager had, but he seemed to be more affected/annoyed than I was. Luckily I have external keyboards at the office and home, so I can avoid using the keyboard and not break it even further. The butterfly keyboard itself wouldn't be so bad were it not for the failures. It wouldn't be as good as the old MacBook Pro keyboards, since whenever I use my old 2011 MacBook Pro, I am surprised by how nice the keyboard on it feels.
stunt 8y ago
Nice title, sad paywall
- vernie 8y ago
  Can we stop accepting paywalled sources? I don't ever see links to $20 papers on Elsevier.
  - dazhbog 8y ago
    I agree. This article has a hard paywall for me. Tried with google referrer (incognito or not) and with outline but that didnt work.
    - asdff 8y ago
      use pocket
  - asdff 8y ago
    use pocket
hooch 8y ago
Surely the need for Apple to noticeably grow profits is going to lead to ever more situations like this? More flimsy products combined with more glamorous marketing to distract.
mirimir 8y ago
Ummm > NoScript detected a potential Cross-Site Scripting attack > from https://www.wsj.com https://www.wsj.com to https://stags.bluekai.com https://stags.bluekai.com. > Suspicious data: (URL) https://stags.bluekai.com/site/4454?ret=html&phint=serverDomain=www.wsj.com&phint=primaryProduct=Online Journal&phint=pageName=WSJ_Multimedia_Collection_Appl Still Hasnât Fixd Its MacBook Kyboad Problm&phint=section=WSJ_Collection&phint=contentChannel=WSJ_Collection&phint=articleType=WSJ_Multimedia_Graphics&phint=contentType=Multimedia&phint=isSub=WSJ_free&phint=edition=North_America_USA&phint=__bk_t=Appl Still Hasnât Fixd Its MacBook Kyboad Problm&phint=__bk_k=Apple keyboard,Apple butterfly keyboard,MacBook keyboard,MacBook Air keyboard,MacBook Pro,MacBook Air,AppleCare,Apple keyboard problem,Joanna Stern&phint=__bk_pr=https://news.ycombinator.com/&phint=__bk_l=https://www.wsj.com/graphics/apple-still-hasnt-fixed-its-macbook-keyboard-problem/&limit=10&bknms=ver=2.0,ua=0dd7c7d553f2517fa22a86fdfb24611b,t=1553703693224,m=4b4e4ecaab1f1c93ab1f1c93ab1f1c93,k=1,lang=07ef608d8a7e9677f0b83775f0b83775,sr=1920x971x24,tzo=420,hss=false,hls=false,idb=true,addb=undefined,odb=undefined,cpu=4b4e4ecaab1f1c93ab1f1c93ab1f1c93,platform=1c17637dbf2f8edebf2f8edebf2f8ede,notrack=,plugins=4b4e4ecaab1f1c93ab1f1c93ab1f1c93,cn=38593d014c984362435c7473ff6387ce&r=16711535
- villgax 8y ago
  Yep, Tor catches this even now.
therealmarv 8y ago
You don't need an E. This is why we have autocorrection in macOS :p
caycep 8y ago
I always felt laptop keyboards/key caps were ALWAYS flimsy feeling. I guess just the older ones you could pull off and replace. But I never was a huge fan of the earlier chiclets either.
- chewmieser 8y ago
  My 2011 MBP's keys were solid. Had a great feel to them and I never had an issue with keys failing or becoming stuck. I even had a few incidents where I spilled a beer on my keyboard and it was completely fine afterwards. I now have a 2017 MBP and I hate these keys. The H is always sticking (no spills even) and the keys don't have that nice soft feel to them. I've interrupted a meeting or two with how loud this keyboard is as well... Definitely a step in the wrong direction IMO
no1youknowz 8y ago
I honestly don't think they will ever fix it. Why should they? People keep buying the product! At this point, I'm on a 2012 MBPr and I keep on deferring to the next year and waiting to see if it's resolved. They are pushing me ever year to say F-it and build a hackintosh. I'm holding out some hope for the new rumoured 16" to come back to the original 2012-2015 design, but I know Apple is belligerent and will release an even thinner design! My dream spec would be: - the 2012-2015 chassis - improved 4k oled screen and bezel less design - arm processor which will do away with throttling and fans - no touchbar - 2012-2015 keyboard - 2012-2015 touchpad not the massive one in newer models - magsafe I can wait a couple of years, but in 2021... Apple won't get my money anymore.
- runjake 8y ago
  > People keep buying the product! Not all of us. I was saving up for a high-end MBP but the 2018s came out with essentially the same design and little public acknowledgement of the keyboard flaw, so I ended up building a rather beefy hackintosh with that money, instead. I miss the portability, but gained power, thermal headroom, the ability to upgrade/replace individual parts, and a ton of expansion. It is glorious. And I paid a fraction of what I would have paid Apple.
  - didgeoridoo 8y ago
    Care to share your build? Thinking that this will be my direction soon as well...
    - runjake 8y ago
      I make it a personal policy to never recommend a hackintosh to someone, as it does require some work (albeit, it was less work to install macOS than Windows 10 [but both were relatively pain-free installs]). That said, I cover my build here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19433038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19433038
      - taude 8y ago
aspectmin 8y ago
Been a Mac user since the very early fat Macs. Love Macs. Will miss iTerm. Can’t stand the new keyboards, let alone their reliability issues, my fingers feel like they are typing directly on a desk/concrete. Fingers hurt. Went to Dell XPS 13. Awesome Machines. Run Linux great. Got given a Thinkpad T407 and fell absolutely in love with the keyboard. It may not be perfect, but comparing side by side with the MBP 2017 one, it’s so much better that I can’t believe I put up with the MBP one.
- skoskie 8y ago
  Shopping for a 2013 rMBP replacement now. Which of those two do you recommend? Would love to run it as a hackintosh, if possible.
  - n42 8y ago
    Thinkpad T480
    - aspectmin 8y ago
      This is the one I have (alongside the XPS 13). I'm loving this keyboard more and more every day, and can no longer stand using the Apple one even the slightest bit. (I now only use the MBP with the older generation bluetooth/wireless keyboard - the one without the numeric keypad, with the older style chiclet keys).
  - Daniel_sk 8y ago
    I have a Dell XPS (2018?), 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, i7 and 3 year on-site warranty. I am running Linux Mint on it for Android development (Windows is much slower for building Android apps, because NTFS is slow at handling lots of small files - http://www.bitsnbites.eu/benchmarking-os-primitives/ http://www.bitsnbites.eu/benchmarking-os-primitives/). I am really satisfied with the notebook and I had a Macbook for about a year before buying the XPS. There basically maybe 2 things I don't like - the camera position is weird, it's in the lower left corner so you get recorded from a weird angle, I think they moved the camera in the latest model? And, typically Linux, sometimes I have echo and mic problems but Zoom seems to be reliable. No issues other than that.
iamaelephant 8y ago
As long as people keep buying their laptops (what proportion of HN users are on Macs? Probably >80%?) why should they resolve the problems with it. Personally, I'm in love with my new XPS 13 and wouldn't touch a Macbook Pro.
- Hamuko 8y ago
  >why should they resolve the problems with it. Class-action lawsuits.
- ct0 8y ago
  Lenovo x1 carbon gen 6 is an amazing machine and will totally make ex-apple users happy. Windows 10 is rather satisfying with little modification.
  - loudmax 8y ago
    Biggest downside to the Lenovo X1 Carbon is you can't buy it without an OS. You have to pay the Microsoft tax even though it works well with Linux drivers.
    - taude 8y ago
      Still way cheaper, though, than the Apple tax? What is the cost forwarded to consumers for Windowson one of those Lenovos? I doubt it's much.
AznHisoka 8y ago
Does anyone have a similar issue with 1 of the Logitech keyboards? The "{" key keeps falling off, and it has happened with multiple keyboards.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
Love the new keyboards. Not been a problem for me. Love the size too. The 15in is about as heavy as the old 13in, making it very portable. Had to sacrifice some keyboard depth for that but so worth it. For anyone working for extended periods of time, you will benefit greatly from having an external keyboard. Preferably one that tilts up in the middle. Why anyone would want a bigger laptop that they use at home to type on the laptop's native keyboard is beyond me.
- RodgerTheGreat 8y ago
  So if I follow you, the argument is that the new built-in keyboards are great because you don't use them, and you find the idea that people would want to be able to type for extended periods on their portable computer "beyond you"? If I wanted a big mechanical keyboard on my desk at home and a nearly unusable keyboard when I'm elsewhere, I'd get an iPad and a desktop. I want a laptop.
  - ppeetteerr 8y ago
    The new keyboards are great because they reduce the size of a portable computer, which makes the portable part of the computer even better. If you want a less portable computer so that you can type at work and at home on its keyboard, you'd be missing out on the _much_ better desktop keyboards that can be had instead.
    - bildung 8y ago
      Or you could get something like the X1 carbon, which weighs much less (so is more portable) and has a keyboard you can actually type on for hours.
      - ppeetteerr 8y ago
        You could, for sure, but not with MacOS.
        8y ago
bookofjoe 8y ago
Here's the article in plain text in six parts: 1) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952654757347330 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952654757347330 2) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952697426034688 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952697426034688 3) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952738685440000 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952738685440000 4) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952781270126594 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952781270126594 5) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952834856570881 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952834856570881 6) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952873934970880 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952873934970880
- collyw 8y ago
  Or just click reader mode in firefox.
- tzs 8y ago
  > My Sci-Hub-ish good deed for the day Sci-Hub can make the argument that the material it makes available is largely publicly funded research, which the public paid the creators for already by funding that research. That argument doesn't apply to the WSJ.
  - bookofjoe 8y ago
    So should I take down my tweets?
    - QOverflow 8y ago
      No please.
    - tzs 8y ago
      I'd at least change the first one to not compare yourself to Sci-Hub.
      - bookofjoe 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pfortuny 8y ago
I have a 2016 MBpro. I only use it with an external keyboard, except on week-ends (and I do not type much on these). Then the N key started repeating. Unbelievable. I cannot imagine the pain of a frequent typer on the keyboard.
- CedarMills 8y ago
  This. I don't do any dev work on my 2018 mbp. It's essentially useless until I plug in an external keyboard.
themagician 8y ago
Not a lot of people know this because most people will try to get the problem fixed, but the problem will actually fix itself after enough time and use. The problem with the keyboard design is actually two fold: particulate AND keys slightly out of tolerances. You will notice that the problem almost always gets worse when the computer gets warm. E, C, X, R and a lot of keys on the left side of the keyboard seem to be the most troublesome when it gets warm. The keys expand and start to actually "click" different. The sound is audibly different. It actually drove me crazy when I first got it. It took almost a year for all the keys to have the same tone, and the S key is still ever so slightly softer than the rest. I have a 2016 MBP and after about 3-6 months I started getting stuck and repeating keys. I was going to take it to the Apple Store to get replaced, but just sort of struggled through it for another 3 months or so as I missed appointment after appointment because I was busy. The problem is now entirely gone and all the keys click the same. I actually had this same thing happen with another 2016 MBP. With enough use, the keys break in and no longer stick. This is, obviously, a ridiculous solution—if you can even call it that. But an aged keyboard is actually more reliable than a new one. The fix for this wasn't just adding in a layer to keep the dust out, but getting tighter tolerances on the butterfly mechanism itself and designed around the expansion issue or using different/better materials.
- plttn 8y ago
  I don't have the patience to go through that, especially considering I had my keyboard swapped last week and keys are already behaving differently again, and I've got a new Genius appointment for tomorrow.
  - themagician 8y ago
    Oh, I feel you. It's ridiculous. I have an original keyboard without the membrane on my main machine and I've been thinking about taking it in to get the upgraded one. But I really don't want to go through breaking in another keyboard if I get a new one with a few wonky keys. If anything what Apple really needs to do is find either a new material or a new manufacturing process that allows for more expansion of the key and mechanism under heat stress without sticking. This doesn't fix the particulate issue, which ultimate triggers the problem, but it does allow for a lot more particulate to accumulate before the problem renders the keyboard unusable.
ycombonator 8y ago
Apple needs to simply put all their products and features through "what would Steve Jobs have done" filter. He would have probably thrown the butterfly design out the window and ask them to come up with a better design.
- Eric_WVGG 8y ago
  Sure, like how he threw the G3 iMac “hockey puck” mouse out before that unfortunate thing shipped.
  - inspector-g 8y ago
    You're certainly not wrong, but the hockey puck was fairly quickly discontinued and replaced (within a year or two) by the "Apple Pro Mouse", which itself wasn't discontinued for 4 or 5 years.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  Would that be the same filter he used back in 2010 when he responded to complaints about the iPhone 4 reception issue by stating "don't hold it that way" ;)
  - ycombonator 8y ago
    Yeah that irked me at the time. But at least he tried to be as close to a perfectionist as they come.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
areoform 8y ago
Apple has lost that magic it had. It's no longer a special company where people used to wait for hours at a time to buy a phone. Apple isn't that company anymore, where someone with good taste used to make your choices for you, and they somehow knew what you couldn't quite articulate. There was an iPhone, an iPad, a MacBook Air, and a MacBook Pro. If you wanted the experience of an Apple phone, you bought an iPhone. You didn't go around asking if you should buy an Xr, Xs, or X, 9, 7, or iPhone googol. You went to the store and bought an iPhone. The product categories were clear. The vision behind them was clearer. Everything just made sense. And it worked too! Apple doesn't make sense anymore. I have a top of the line MacBook Pro 2016 that I can't type on. I am the professional these machines are meant to target. My use case isn't "hardcore" or "niche." It's that of most entrepreneurs, programmers, and designers. I wanted a machine that I could carry around in my backpack with good-enough battery life that could let me work from a coffee shop. Nothing fancy. Nothing complicated. Just a machine that a woman can use at a coffee shop with her soy latte. What I got for my thousands of dollars is a machine that can't be used without its cradle. The keyboard has stopped working correctly despite weekly cleaning. I am worried that the screen will stop working too. And I don't have the time to take my machine back to the store and get it replaced because I'm so busy that I can't live without my computer. Apple was supposed to be the company that made computers for people who do stuff. Now, it's a dividend machine that happens to make crappy computers.
- mike_ivanov 8y ago
  > professional these machines are meant to target When you are next time in one of those coffee shops, I suggest you to look around to spot people with latest macbooks. Then ask yourself what category of users they belong to. And whether their primary use case is the same as yours.
  - FreakyT 8y ago
    Right, so that bolsters OP's point that the categories are so muddled that they no longer really exist. Apple used to cater to both specific markets -- "pro" and "consumer". Now they just label all their machines "pro", despite their evident consumer targeting.
onepremise 8y ago
louis Rossman did an episode on the macbook keyboard problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KuVvb9DTaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KuVvb9DTaU It's insane what a mac user must go through even to attempt to repair this themselves. Another reason it's important to support right to repair, https://repair.org/ https://repair.org/. There's also a lawsuit for the keyboard defects: https://www.classlawgroup.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-defect-lawsuit/ https://www.classlawgroup.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-def...
pell 8y ago
Wow, Joanna really carried that bit till the very last word. I love it.
nyc111 8y ago
I'm planning to buy a MacBook Air. Is this butterfly keyboard affects only Macbook Pro? Is it the same with MacBook Air?
- rwz 8y ago
  I just got the latest air and it has the same keyboard that current mbps have. They’ve added some rubber membranes, so it’s hopefully less prone to broken keys, but there are reports that the problem still exists, unfortunately.
httpz 8y ago
As one of the early engineers of the company, I have a 2015 Macbook Pro. New engineers with their new touch bar Macbook Pro are jealous. Other than some minor battery degradation it hasn't failed me. I'm holding on to this as long as possible.
- jackfrodo 8y ago
  Yep, I have a late 2013 pro, and plan on "upgrading" to the most specced out version of the last 2015 pre-touchbar model whenever this one dies.
jokoon 8y ago
I would by a laptop with a mechanical keyboard even if it makes it much thicker.
laythea 8y ago
I know she is trying to make a point, but I don't think she should have mispelt almost every word.
buranch 8y ago
I was planning to buy Macbook 2018 next week now after seeing all this complaints, i think I should wait for the 2019 model. Anyone with an idea when the next release would be?
- zootam 8y ago
  Just a guess, but probably august/september
rwz 8y ago
Current gen MacBook pros can’t fit latest intel processors into that thin body. Other vendors already leave mbps in the dust performance wise. That fact makes me hopeful that apple will have to go thicker for the next mbp generation and that will maybe warrant a better keyboard. This form-over-usability-and-function madness has to end.
KayL 8y ago
my MacBook's shit key doesn't work occasionally. I'm still thinking to bring it to fix or not.
- barbs 8y ago
  Looks like you have the same problem with your f key!
pier25 8y ago
I'm surprised people are still buying these models with all the issues with keyboards, GPU glitches, T2 chip, etc. The repair program doesn't really solve anything. I'm willing to bet most MBP owners do not have a second Mac to keep working while it is being repaired. Also, at least in Mexico, Apple is being super strict about which machines go into the repair program. I know a couple of people with keyboard problems that were told there was no problem with the keyboard.
b3b0p 8y ago
Extending the warranty of the MacBook's with the keyboards that have issues isn't enough. They should be under warranty indefinitely or made affordable to replace, even if it's at a loss for AAPL.
kukabynd 8y ago
MacBook updates of 2016 and onwards are an example of “don’t fix it if ain’t broken”. There isn’t much choice on the market though. MacOS is something special still.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

185 points by velmu 8y ago

They should have done one paragraph without the Es and Rs to make the point and then had it read as normal. I bet a lot of would be readers aren't bothering with this otherwise good article because of it.

gschrader 8y ago
There's a toggle in each section, that said I wish I noticed the toggle switch before I read the complete article myself.

rb808 8y ago

I really hate the keyboard on most laptops. XPS's I don't like and new macbooks seem the worst. Anyone recommend any? Thinkpads seem good, and many HPs.

devashish86 8y ago
Have worked on Mac's, XPS's and HP's in the past but once I got on Thinkpad, never looked back. My current system(for past 5 years now) is a trusty X1 Carbon that has seen some rough times but has never failed me. Thinking of upgrading later this year to a newer version of the same line.
- pbrb 8y ago
  Go for it - I went with an X1C6 as a replacement for my old macbook pro, and I couldn't be happier. Excellent keyboard and no issues running linux. The only setting I've changed from my default ubuntu was to install and use the kde plasma desktop to avoid scaling issues, and it's perfect. You'll love the form factor as well.
- asark 8y ago
  How's the touchpad? What's kept me on Apple is the ability to actually use the MacBook Pro as a portable computer, not just a crappy desktop you can drag between the power and mouse+keyboard stations that you need to get work done without swearing at it constantly or frowning while you watch the battery life indicator plummet. The keyboard and port situations are both pushing the MacBook far enough out of that "close the lid and go, no worries" sweet spot it used to fall so solidly into that I'm eyeing other options, but I have some very bad memories of both battery life and trackpads on non-Apple machines, and my (limited!) interactions with such more recently haven't made me optimistic.
  - devashish86 8y ago
    I admit that the touchpad isn't as smooth and gesture driven as the mac but I'm not the user those are really meant for. I spend most of my time on the keyboard writing code and living in the "cloud" which makes using mouse a drag anyway. So all I'm looking for is a powerful machine that doesn't hog resources on useless stuff, with sturdy keyboard(physical keys please, none of that touch bar BS), can support dual/multi boot and works with all the peripherals I need. Thinkpads work better than most without the significant price overhead. One of my dystopian future scenarios has no Thinkpad's in it :D
  - BuckRogers 8y ago
    Just to offer another perspective on the battery front, that only really matters for casual browsing. Anytime real work is done on a machine, you'll be plugging in within a few hours on everything anyway. If you're doing CPU/IO intensive development work, they all fall down so quickly that I don't think it matters on the differences. It's really a browsing/videos metric, which is relatively unimportant to me when buying a workstation class laptop. I don't think I'd buy any laptop based on battery life as a primary factor, and the overall usability situation for most stuff on the market isn't as grave as it used to be (which your post accurately recalls). I've owned the XPS15 with 6-core 8th gen Intel (maxing out the scales at 97Wh battery) and have a Thinkpad X1 Extreme. I've had MBPs in the past too. For the touchpad on Thinkpads, I think they're pretty good if you're on Windows, most are anymore with MS Windows Precision drivers as the Thinkpads use. For me, a major driver for me towards these is the Trackpoint. Depending on your usecase, my favorite machines on the market today are the X1 Extreme (development), X1 Yoga (consulting/development), Samsung Notebook 9 Pen 13" (home), and Macbook Air (home).
- tfandango 8y ago
  I've been using an X1 Yoga (1st gen) for almost 3 years and it's been great as well. I would probably go Carbon next time as I don't use the yoga function that often. But I don't think I could switch to anything else after using this laptop keyboard (and if it breaks I can just replace it myself).
Wowfunhappy 8y ago
I thought Apple's laptop keyboards were great prior to the butterfly era. They never felt quite as good as their old desktop keyboards—which were and are my favorite—but more than adequate for a laptop.
- asark 8y ago
  I had to briefly use a Macbook two designs old a while back—the thicker aluminum kind, that could still accommodate a disc drive—and wow, I'd forgotten how much better that keyboard was than the one after, even, let alone the loud-as-hell, uncomfortable butterfly ones. It felt great—probably about as good as a laptop keyboard could be. I want that kind back. The tiny bit of extra travel and slightly softer action made a huge difference.
jeffFrom18F 8y ago
I've enjoyed the keyboard on my System76 laptop. Granted that's a special case since they're not for everyone (Linux-focused). I've found most laptop keyboards at least adequate, the MacBook that I'm forced to use for work is the first one that is objectively terrible. I've been told the ones <= 2015 were better in the keyboard department.
- rb808 8y ago
  Thanks, they weren't on my radar. Some nice laptops, damn this one's a beast https://system76.com/laptops/serval https://system76.com/laptops/serval
zeusk 8y ago
Try a surface book, surface laptop is pretty good too. (I dislike the keyboard covers for pro - too much flex and too little travel).
throwaway082729 8y ago
I got a Pixelbook last week and have been using it as my everyday laptop for the last few days. Hands-down best keyboard I've used in a long time, probably better than the older Macbook ones.
- jordanthoms 8y ago
  Yeah I don't know where that Pixelbook keyboard came from (does Google have people engineering keyboards?) but it's crazy good. Thin, too - so no excuse for Apple's new keyboards.
  - throwaway082729 8y ago
    Clearly, whoever designed the Pixelbook keyboard talked to real users. I wish I could dual boot to Ubuntu on this machine.
EnderMB 8y ago
The keyboard on the Surface Book is very good, and is still good even after constant use.
ncr100 8y ago
Dell Alienware - "baller" would be my technical judgement. Long key travel, large layout. Makes programming comfortable again. Gaming laptops in general seem to be nearly "no compromise" products. Battery life is as good as it can be - they max-out the watt-hours permitted by airlines. Keyboards can be massive. Screens, sound systems. Recently the weight has been reduced through clever hardware engineering: https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-alienware-area-51m/spd/alienware-17-area51m-laptop/wnser7cr5101h https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-alienware-a...
- wyclif 8y ago
  You know there's something wrong with the "pro" laptop market (and with Apple) when engineers start moving to "gaming laptops" to get serious work done.
  - 0815test 8y ago
    It's a marketing term. Many "gaming" laptops are quite well-built and it would be silly to ignore them, even for "real work". (Unless you need the sort of reliability that can only be had by moving to Xeon/EPYC cpus, ECC memory and Quadro/FirePro graphics, of course.)
    - wyclif 8y ago
      Oh, I agree totally. That's why I put "gaming laptop" in quotes. I could care less what they're called; as long as it's better as a development laptop than a MacBook Pro I'm interested ;-)
      - rb808 8y ago
        At nearly 9 pounds maybe we should put "laptop" in quotes. :)
bashinator 8y ago
I switched to a ThinkPad after many years of using MacBooks, and it has just a lovely keyboard to use. The tactile response is very similar to Cherry MX Brown switches (quiet, but still has that "click" feel).
bproven 8y ago
Thinkpads are great (T series) - Especially like the carbon X1s as they work great with Linux. It has been my primary driver for a while now with zero issues.

js2 8y ago

Apple keyboard related tale, though not an Apple butterfly keyboard: I had to call Apple support yesterday to register an AppleCare Protection Plan agreement. The way this works is you first get routed to someone who takes some notes about your case, then that person sends you to the correct specialist. Anyway, after waiting on hold a short while (Apple lets you choose your genre of on-hold music or wait in silence... though normally they call you but for some reason they kept getting my voice mail so I had to call them), the woman who picked up starting asking me for information. Thwack, thwack, thwack I hear as she’s typing, like fire crackers going off. Eventually I couldn’t take it anymore so I said: “that is not an Apple Keyboard you’re typing on!” “Nope,” she said. “I spilled water on my Apple keyboard earlier today and it stopped working, so I pulled out this old PC keyboard I had. But I hate it. I texted my husband and asked him to go buy me a new Apple keyboard.” (It seemed like she was working from home.) So I told her some people really prefer those mechanical switch keyboards, that they probably wouldn’t stop working from a bit of water, but maybe her Apple keyboard would start working again when it dried out. “I hope so,” she said, “Because I really prefer it for typing and my husband balked at the $100 cost of a new Apple keyboard.” (Obviously she meant an external Magic keyboard and not a MacBook PoS keyboard.) (Aside: I’d consider it a public service if the WSJ would make this article available for free. I love the toggle switches! I was unable to make an outline.com link but I could read it by following the link from a Google search in an incognito window.)

draw_down 8y ago
Their standalone keyboard is my favorite keyboard I've ever used, simple and very nice (but still with keys for volume control and playback control). I've never used the MacBooks with the keyboards people hate so much.
culturestate 8y ago
> It seemed like she was working from home Significant portions of their phone support staff work remotely; they’re called at-home advisors. Seems to be a really well-run program. https://www.apple.com/jobs/us/aha.html https://www.apple.com/jobs/us/aha.html
- 8y ago

ksec 8y ago

Thank You Apple. Finally you have the courage to admit it. ( Although in both cases they were under the pressure of media and press ) Unfortunately the extended warranty programme [1] still does not include MacBook 2018. Now they have acknowledge it, at least there is hope this will change. I could never understand why Apple don't have some internal guidelines on it, even if it was out of warranty they could have fix it for free as Standard Procedure, without actually admitting it was a problem. Instead they try to charge people outrageous repair price on it. Keyboard, TB3 Charging, Internal Display Connector, Trackpad False positives, and numbers other small things I can't remember. I am hoping 2019 Apple will have a MacBook Pro redesign that fixes all of these issues. [1] https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...

MarHoff 8y ago
Also please read this fine lines it might be very interesting for some: >If you believe your MacBook or MacBook Pro was affected by this issue, and you paid to have your keyboard repaired, you can contact Apple about a refund.
asdff 8y ago
> I am hoping 2019 Apple will have a MacBook Pro redesign that fixes all of these issues. I hope so too, but I'm not optimistic unless there are leadership changes. They've triple downed on this and it's still an issue. We definitely won't see scissor keys again, Apple isn't going to undermine their narrative like that, but I hope whatever comes after the butterfly was developed in a completely separate building than wherever they house the butterfly keyboard team. Poor engineering from the start, embarrassing half measures since, Jobs would have cleared house years ago.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago

Sad the article is behind a paywall. This is a topic I care about. The penultimate generation MacBook Air keyboard is still my favourite typing device, and it’s what I use today. I would pay Apple double the price of their current MacBook for the same thing but with the old keyboard, and the MagSafe connector.

js2 8y ago
Try the web link at the top of the page in an incognito window then click through from the Google search results. It worked for me.
- tuxone 8y ago
  There are also extensions that automatize that (firefox one https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox https://github.com/iamadamdev/bypass-paywalls-firefox)
- therealmarv 8y ago
  ah, copy the title and search it via Google worked out (using the link in Google search did not worked).
ams6110 8y ago
You would pay Apple 2x their price for already overpriced hardware, but won't pay the WSJ for reporting on a topic you "care about" ?
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  I spend most of my day, on most days, working on the one machine I own. It’s the one physical tool I use for my entire livelihood. I can’t say the same for the WSJ.
villgax 8y ago
Check out the new Razer Blade 15, good aluminium build, battery life & keyboard(save for shift key position).

thomasjudge 8y ago

Wow, in the WSJ. That'll get some attention from Apple management

thomasjudge 8y ago
Favorite line: "It’s time to stop prioritizing thinness over usability."
- api 8y ago
  Yeah, this is like 90% of it. They passed the point of diminishing returns from thin/light back in the early 20-teens, especially for "Pro" laptops. For a pro laptop I want power, battery life, and durability far more than thin/light.
- pier25 8y ago
  This is the very old Apple problem of design over function. Sometimes they get it right, but when they don't it's a real disaster.
skoskie 8y ago
Already has. https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18284042/apple-macbook-keyboard-apology-issues-bad-design https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18284042/apple-macbook-ke...
- Hamuko 8y ago
  >“We are aware that a small number of users are having issues with their third-generation butterfly keyboard and for that we are sorry,” an Apple spokesman told Stern in a statement. “The vast majority of Mac notebook customers are having a positive experience with the new keyboard.” Doubt it. Both me and my manager have 2016 MacBook Pros and we both have had issues. I at least have randomly repeating B's. Not sure what my manager had, but he seemed to be more affected/annoyed than I was. Luckily I have external keyboards at the office and home, so I can avoid using the keyboard and not break it even further. The butterfly keyboard itself wouldn't be so bad were it not for the failures. It wouldn't be as good as the old MacBook Pro keyboards, since whenever I use my old 2011 MacBook Pro, I am surprised by how nice the keyboard on it feels.

stunt 8y ago

Nice title, sad paywall

vernie 8y ago
Can we stop accepting paywalled sources? I don't ever see links to $20 papers on Elsevier.
- dazhbog 8y ago
  I agree. This article has a hard paywall for me. Tried with google referrer (incognito or not) and with outline but that didnt work.
  - asdff 8y ago
    use pocket
- asdff 8y ago
  use pocket

hooch 8y ago

Surely the need for Apple to noticeably grow profits is going to lead to ever more situations like this? More flimsy products combined with more glamorous marketing to distract.

mirimir 8y ago

Ummm > NoScript detected a potential Cross-Site Scripting attack > from https://www.wsj.com https://www.wsj.com to https://stags.bluekai.com https://stags.bluekai.com. > Suspicious data: (URL) https://stags.bluekai.com/site/4454?ret=html&phint=serverDomain=www.wsj.com&phint=primaryProduct=Online Journal&phint=pageName=WSJ_Multimedia_Collection_Appl Still Hasnât Fixd Its MacBook Kyboad Problm&phint=section=WSJ_Collection&phint=contentChannel=WSJ_Collection&phint=articleType=WSJ_Multimedia_Graphics&phint=contentType=Multimedia&phint=isSub=WSJ_free&phint=edition=North_America_USA&phint=__bk_t=Appl Still Hasnât Fixd Its MacBook Kyboad Problm&phint=__bk_k=Apple keyboard,Apple butterfly keyboard,MacBook keyboard,MacBook Air keyboard,MacBook Pro,MacBook Air,AppleCare,Apple keyboard problem,Joanna Stern&phint=__bk_pr=https://news.ycombinator.com/&phint=__bk_l=https://www.wsj.com/graphics/apple-still-hasnt-fixed-its-macbook-keyboard-problem/&limit=10&bknms=ver=2.0,ua=0dd7c7d553f2517fa22a86fdfb24611b,t=1553703693224,m=4b4e4ecaab1f1c93ab1f1c93ab1f1c93,k=1,lang=07ef608d8a7e9677f0b83775f0b83775,sr=1920x971x24,tzo=420,hss=false,hls=false,idb=true,addb=undefined,odb=undefined,cpu=4b4e4ecaab1f1c93ab1f1c93ab1f1c93,platform=1c17637dbf2f8edebf2f8edebf2f8ede,notrack=,plugins=4b4e4ecaab1f1c93ab1f1c93ab1f1c93,cn=38593d014c984362435c7473ff6387ce&r=16711535

villgax 8y ago
Yep, Tor catches this even now.

therealmarv 8y ago

You don't need an E. This is why we have autocorrection in macOS :p

caycep 8y ago

I always felt laptop keyboards/key caps were ALWAYS flimsy feeling. I guess just the older ones you could pull off and replace. But I never was a huge fan of the earlier chiclets either.

chewmieser 8y ago
My 2011 MBP's keys were solid. Had a great feel to them and I never had an issue with keys failing or becoming stuck. I even had a few incidents where I spilled a beer on my keyboard and it was completely fine afterwards. I now have a 2017 MBP and I hate these keys. The H is always sticking (no spills even) and the keys don't have that nice soft feel to them. I've interrupted a meeting or two with how loud this keyboard is as well... Definitely a step in the wrong direction IMO

no1youknowz 8y ago

I honestly don't think they will ever fix it. Why should they? People keep buying the product! At this point, I'm on a 2012 MBPr and I keep on deferring to the next year and waiting to see if it's resolved. They are pushing me ever year to say F-it and build a hackintosh. I'm holding out some hope for the new rumoured 16" to come back to the original 2012-2015 design, but I know Apple is belligerent and will release an even thinner design! My dream spec would be: - the 2012-2015 chassis - improved 4k oled screen and bezel less design - arm processor which will do away with throttling and fans - no touchbar - 2012-2015 keyboard - 2012-2015 touchpad not the massive one in newer models - magsafe I can wait a couple of years, but in 2021... Apple won't get my money anymore.

runjake 8y ago
> People keep buying the product! Not all of us. I was saving up for a high-end MBP but the 2018s came out with essentially the same design and little public acknowledgement of the keyboard flaw, so I ended up building a rather beefy hackintosh with that money, instead. I miss the portability, but gained power, thermal headroom, the ability to upgrade/replace individual parts, and a ton of expansion. It is glorious. And I paid a fraction of what I would have paid Apple.
- didgeoridoo 8y ago
  Care to share your build? Thinking that this will be my direction soon as well...
  - runjake 8y ago
    I make it a personal policy to never recommend a hackintosh to someone, as it does require some work (albeit, it was less work to install macOS than Windows 10 [but both were relatively pain-free installs]). That said, I cover my build here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19433038 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19433038
    - taude 8y ago

aspectmin 8y ago

Been a Mac user since the very early fat Macs. Love Macs. Will miss iTerm. Can’t stand the new keyboards, let alone their reliability issues, my fingers feel like they are typing directly on a desk/concrete. Fingers hurt. Went to Dell XPS 13. Awesome Machines. Run Linux great. Got given a Thinkpad T407 and fell absolutely in love with the keyboard. It may not be perfect, but comparing side by side with the MBP 2017 one, it’s so much better that I can’t believe I put up with the MBP one.

skoskie 8y ago
Shopping for a 2013 rMBP replacement now. Which of those two do you recommend? Would love to run it as a hackintosh, if possible.
- n42 8y ago
  Thinkpad T480
  - aspectmin 8y ago
    This is the one I have (alongside the XPS 13). I'm loving this keyboard more and more every day, and can no longer stand using the Apple one even the slightest bit. (I now only use the MBP with the older generation bluetooth/wireless keyboard - the one without the numeric keypad, with the older style chiclet keys).
- Daniel_sk 8y ago
  I have a Dell XPS (2018?), 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD, i7 and 3 year on-site warranty. I am running Linux Mint on it for Android development (Windows is much slower for building Android apps, because NTFS is slow at handling lots of small files - http://www.bitsnbites.eu/benchmarking-os-primitives/ http://www.bitsnbites.eu/benchmarking-os-primitives/). I am really satisfied with the notebook and I had a Macbook for about a year before buying the XPS. There basically maybe 2 things I don't like - the camera position is weird, it's in the lower left corner so you get recorded from a weird angle, I think they moved the camera in the latest model? And, typically Linux, sometimes I have echo and mic problems but Zoom seems to be reliable. No issues other than that.

iamaelephant 8y ago

As long as people keep buying their laptops (what proportion of HN users are on Macs? Probably >80%?) why should they resolve the problems with it. Personally, I'm in love with my new XPS 13 and wouldn't touch a Macbook Pro.

Hamuko 8y ago
>why should they resolve the problems with it. Class-action lawsuits.
ct0 8y ago
Lenovo x1 carbon gen 6 is an amazing machine and will totally make ex-apple users happy. Windows 10 is rather satisfying with little modification.
- loudmax 8y ago
  Biggest downside to the Lenovo X1 Carbon is you can't buy it without an OS. You have to pay the Microsoft tax even though it works well with Linux drivers.
  - taude 8y ago
    Still way cheaper, though, than the Apple tax? What is the cost forwarded to consumers for Windowson one of those Lenovos? I doubt it's much.

AznHisoka 8y ago

Does anyone have a similar issue with 1 of the Logitech keyboards? The "{" key keeps falling off, and it has happened with multiple keyboards.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

Love the new keyboards. Not been a problem for me. Love the size too. The 15in is about as heavy as the old 13in, making it very portable. Had to sacrifice some keyboard depth for that but so worth it. For anyone working for extended periods of time, you will benefit greatly from having an external keyboard. Preferably one that tilts up in the middle. Why anyone would want a bigger laptop that they use at home to type on the laptop's native keyboard is beyond me.

RodgerTheGreat 8y ago
So if I follow you, the argument is that the new built-in keyboards are great because you don't use them, and you find the idea that people would want to be able to type for extended periods on their portable computer "beyond you"? If I wanted a big mechanical keyboard on my desk at home and a nearly unusable keyboard when I'm elsewhere, I'd get an iPad and a desktop. I want a laptop.
- ppeetteerr 8y ago
  The new keyboards are great because they reduce the size of a portable computer, which makes the portable part of the computer even better. If you want a less portable computer so that you can type at work and at home on its keyboard, you'd be missing out on the _much_ better desktop keyboards that can be had instead.
  - bildung 8y ago
    Or you could get something like the X1 carbon, which weighs much less (so is more portable) and has a keyboard you can actually type on for hours.
    - ppeetteerr 8y ago
      You could, for sure, but not with MacOS.
      - 8y ago

bookofjoe 8y ago

Here's the article in plain text in six parts: 1) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952654757347330 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952654757347330 2) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952697426034688 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952697426034688 3) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952738685440000 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952738685440000 4) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952781270126594 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952781270126594 5) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952834856570881 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952834856570881 6) https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952873934970880 https://twitter.com/bookofjoe/status/1110952873934970880

collyw 8y ago
Or just click reader mode in firefox.
tzs 8y ago
> My Sci-Hub-ish good deed for the day Sci-Hub can make the argument that the material it makes available is largely publicly funded research, which the public paid the creators for already by funding that research. That argument doesn't apply to the WSJ.
- bookofjoe 8y ago
  So should I take down my tweets?
  - QOverflow 8y ago
    No please.
  - tzs 8y ago
    I'd at least change the first one to not compare yourself to Sci-Hub.
    - bookofjoe 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

pfortuny 8y ago

I have a 2016 MBpro. I only use it with an external keyboard, except on week-ends (and I do not type much on these). Then the N key started repeating. Unbelievable. I cannot imagine the pain of a frequent typer on the keyboard.

CedarMills 8y ago
This. I don't do any dev work on my 2018 mbp. It's essentially useless until I plug in an external keyboard.

themagician 8y ago

Not a lot of people know this because most people will try to get the problem fixed, but the problem will actually fix itself after enough time and use. The problem with the keyboard design is actually two fold: particulate AND keys slightly out of tolerances. You will notice that the problem almost always gets worse when the computer gets warm. E, C, X, R and a lot of keys on the left side of the keyboard seem to be the most troublesome when it gets warm. The keys expand and start to actually "click" different. The sound is audibly different. It actually drove me crazy when I first got it. It took almost a year for all the keys to have the same tone, and the S key is still ever so slightly softer than the rest. I have a 2016 MBP and after about 3-6 months I started getting stuck and repeating keys. I was going to take it to the Apple Store to get replaced, but just sort of struggled through it for another 3 months or so as I missed appointment after appointment because I was busy. The problem is now entirely gone and all the keys click the same. I actually had this same thing happen with another 2016 MBP. With enough use, the keys break in and no longer stick. This is, obviously, a ridiculous solution—if you can even call it that. But an aged keyboard is actually more reliable than a new one. The fix for this wasn't just adding in a layer to keep the dust out, but getting tighter tolerances on the butterfly mechanism itself and designed around the expansion issue or using different/better materials.

plttn 8y ago
I don't have the patience to go through that, especially considering I had my keyboard swapped last week and keys are already behaving differently again, and I've got a new Genius appointment for tomorrow.
- themagician 8y ago
  Oh, I feel you. It's ridiculous. I have an original keyboard without the membrane on my main machine and I've been thinking about taking it in to get the upgraded one. But I really don't want to go through breaking in another keyboard if I get a new one with a few wonky keys. If anything what Apple really needs to do is find either a new material or a new manufacturing process that allows for more expansion of the key and mechanism under heat stress without sticking. This doesn't fix the particulate issue, which ultimate triggers the problem, but it does allow for a lot more particulate to accumulate before the problem renders the keyboard unusable.

ycombonator 8y ago

Apple needs to simply put all their products and features through "what would Steve Jobs have done" filter. He would have probably thrown the butterfly design out the window and ask them to come up with a better design.

Eric_WVGG 8y ago
Sure, like how he threw the G3 iMac “hockey puck” mouse out before that unfortunate thing shipped.
- inspector-g 8y ago
  You're certainly not wrong, but the hockey puck was fairly quickly discontinued and replaced (within a year or two) by the "Apple Pro Mouse", which itself wasn't discontinued for 4 or 5 years.
bogomipz 8y ago
Would that be the same filter he used back in 2010 when he responded to complaints about the iPhone 4 reception issue by stating "don't hold it that way" ;)
- ycombonator 8y ago
  Yeah that irked me at the time. But at least he tried to be as close to a perfectionist as they come.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

areoform 8y ago

Apple has lost that magic it had. It's no longer a special company where people used to wait for hours at a time to buy a phone. Apple isn't that company anymore, where someone with good taste used to make your choices for you, and they somehow knew what you couldn't quite articulate. There was an iPhone, an iPad, a MacBook Air, and a MacBook Pro. If you wanted the experience of an Apple phone, you bought an iPhone. You didn't go around asking if you should buy an Xr, Xs, or X, 9, 7, or iPhone googol. You went to the store and bought an iPhone. The product categories were clear. The vision behind them was clearer. Everything just made sense. And it worked too! Apple doesn't make sense anymore. I have a top of the line MacBook Pro 2016 that I can't type on. I am the professional these machines are meant to target. My use case isn't "hardcore" or "niche." It's that of most entrepreneurs, programmers, and designers. I wanted a machine that I could carry around in my backpack with good-enough battery life that could let me work from a coffee shop. Nothing fancy. Nothing complicated. Just a machine that a woman can use at a coffee shop with her soy latte. What I got for my thousands of dollars is a machine that can't be used without its cradle. The keyboard has stopped working correctly despite weekly cleaning. I am worried that the screen will stop working too. And I don't have the time to take my machine back to the store and get it replaced because I'm so busy that I can't live without my computer. Apple was supposed to be the company that made computers for people who do stuff. Now, it's a dividend machine that happens to make crappy computers.

mike_ivanov 8y ago
> professional these machines are meant to target When you are next time in one of those coffee shops, I suggest you to look around to spot people with latest macbooks. Then ask yourself what category of users they belong to. And whether their primary use case is the same as yours.
- FreakyT 8y ago
  Right, so that bolsters OP's point that the categories are so muddled that they no longer really exist. Apple used to cater to both specific markets -- "pro" and "consumer". Now they just label all their machines "pro", despite their evident consumer targeting.

onepremise 8y ago

louis Rossman did an episode on the macbook keyboard problems: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KuVvb9DTaU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KuVvb9DTaU It's insane what a mac user must go through even to attempt to repair this themselves. Another reason it's important to support right to repair, https://repair.org/ https://repair.org/. There's also a lawsuit for the keyboard defects: https://www.classlawgroup.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-defect-lawsuit/ https://www.classlawgroup.com/apple-macbook-pro-keyboard-def...

pell 8y ago

Wow, Joanna really carried that bit till the very last word. I love it.

nyc111 8y ago

I'm planning to buy a MacBook Air. Is this butterfly keyboard affects only Macbook Pro? Is it the same with MacBook Air?

rwz 8y ago
I just got the latest air and it has the same keyboard that current mbps have. They’ve added some rubber membranes, so it’s hopefully less prone to broken keys, but there are reports that the problem still exists, unfortunately.

httpz 8y ago

As one of the early engineers of the company, I have a 2015 Macbook Pro. New engineers with their new touch bar Macbook Pro are jealous. Other than some minor battery degradation it hasn't failed me. I'm holding on to this as long as possible.

jackfrodo 8y ago
Yep, I have a late 2013 pro, and plan on "upgrading" to the most specced out version of the last 2015 pre-touchbar model whenever this one dies.

jokoon 8y ago

I would by a laptop with a mechanical keyboard even if it makes it much thicker.

laythea 8y ago

I know she is trying to make a point, but I don't think she should have mispelt almost every word.

buranch 8y ago

I was planning to buy Macbook 2018 next week now after seeing all this complaints, i think I should wait for the 2019 model. Anyone with an idea when the next release would be?

zootam 8y ago
Just a guess, but probably august/september

rwz 8y ago

Current gen MacBook pros can’t fit latest intel processors into that thin body. Other vendors already leave mbps in the dust performance wise. That fact makes me hopeful that apple will have to go thicker for the next mbp generation and that will maybe warrant a better keyboard. This form-over-usability-and-function madness has to end.

KayL 8y ago

my MacBook's shit key doesn't work occasionally. I'm still thinking to bring it to fix or not.

barbs 8y ago
Looks like you have the same problem with your f key!

pier25 8y ago

I'm surprised people are still buying these models with all the issues with keyboards, GPU glitches, T2 chip, etc. The repair program doesn't really solve anything. I'm willing to bet most MBP owners do not have a second Mac to keep working while it is being repaired. Also, at least in Mexico, Apple is being super strict about which machines go into the repair program. I know a couple of people with keyboard problems that were told there was no problem with the keyboard.

b3b0p 8y ago

Extending the warranty of the MacBook's with the keyboards that have issues isn't enough. They should be under warranty indefinitely or made affordable to replace, even if it's at a loss for AAPL.

kukabynd 8y ago

MacBook updates of 2016 and onwards are an example of “don’t fix it if ain’t broken”. There isn’t much choice on the market though. MacOS is something special still.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]