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Germany to make it a crime to run a Tor node or website

763 points by ccnafr 8y ago

wcoenen 8y ago
Link doesn't work, it is for translating korean to german
- snazz 8y ago
  This one does: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fdigital%2Fdatenschutz%2F2019-03%2Ftor-netzwerk-darknet-gesetzentwurf-strafverfolgung-internet-kriminalitaet-anonymitaet%2Fkomplettansicht&sandbox=1 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=de&tl=en&u=htt...
- aw4y 8y ago
  change to german to english and it will work
- close04 8y ago
  Original link (German): https://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2019-03/tor-netzwerk-darknet-gesetzentwurf-strafverfolgung-internet-kriminalitaet-anonymitaet https://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2019-03/tor-netzwerk...
blastbeat 8y ago
I skimmed through that law draft. Translation: They want you to face jail, if you provide an "internet based service", which "accessibility is restricted due to specific, technical precautionary measures", and which "purpose is to allow or encourage specific illegal actions". They refer in particular to the Tor network and its abuse by serious crime, but how I read this law, you could apply it for all kind of things. For instance if somebody runs an encrypted IRC channel or email service. This is yet another attack on freedom in Germany thanks to the Christian Democratic Union. EDIT: The original law draft can be found here: https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/TO/975/erl/10.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1 https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/TO/975/erl/10.pdf?__blob...
- akerro 8y ago
  >"internet based service", which "accessibility is restricted due to specific, technical precautionary measures", and which "purpose is to allow or encourage specific illegal actions". That's technically what youtube and liveleak do in Germany.
  - anoncoward111 8y ago
    I want to see everybody at DW go to prison for hosting comments on news articles which could be considered inflammatory. Elites need equal prosecution under law!
  - koboll 8y ago
    Can't you just argue that you set up your Tor node with an intent to facilitate legal actions, and don't condone or encourage people to misuse it?
    - mreome 8y ago
      But you would be facing a government arguing that Tor doesn't have any legitimate legal uses... after being put through the process of being raided, having all your equipment confiscated, and being arrested.
      - kbwt 8y ago
        In the currently proposed revision, the law applies to anyone facilitating access to an internet-based service "unless the criminal use of the service is of insignificant importance". See the changes relative to the original draft here: https://www.internet-strafrecht.com/wp-content/plugins/download-attachments/includes/download.php?id=2691 https://www.internet-strafrecht.com/wp-content/plugins/downl...
        koboll 8y ago
        Does that mean YouTube would be liable for hosting the NZ shooter's terrorist-act livestream? Seems pretty significant.
accnumnplus1 8y ago
Germany first, then the EU.
- no1youknowz 8y ago
  I can't argue with that and unfortunately for the UK. Due to our leaders being so weak, incompetent and impotent. They will be falling over themselves to implement this to its fullest.
  - fvjft 8y ago
    Even after Brexit?
    - raverbashing 8y ago
      Oh totally.
    - ben_w 8y ago
      The current Prime Minister introduced the Investigatory Powers Bill (now Act) when she was in the role of Home Secretary. This act requires all ISPs to record which domains users visit for one year, and provide access to that data without a warrant to a large number of government bodies including the Welsh ambulance services. This act has been ruled incompatible with EU law. The UK is much worse than the EU when it comes to this sort of thing.
    - chmod775 8y ago
      Without the EU the UK would likely be more Orwellian. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bigbrother-ruling/britains-mass-web-spying-faulted-by-european-rights-court-idUSKCN1LT1JY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bigbrother-ruling/britain...
    - denysonique 8y ago
      @ben_w, @chmod775 It is incorrect to say that United Kingdom would be worse off privacy wise after leaving the EU. The mentioned privacy invasive bill was ruled by the English High Court to be incompatible with the ECHR. EU membership is unrelated to United Kingdom being party to the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR). The Council fo Europe is a distinct organisation from the EU. Please check facts before spreading misinformation.
gatherhunterer 8y ago
This is a proposed bill. The title posted here suggests that it has been ratified and is going to implemented but that has not happened. The translated (and paraphrased) title is "Those Who Make the Darknet Possible Could Soon Be Offenders."
stakhanov 8y ago
The article actually details that the proposal on the table is to make it a crime to run sites whose access is restricted by specific technical measures and whose purpose or activity is oriented towards the goal of aiding crime. The notion that it would become a crime to run a tor exit node is actually speculation on the part of the authors of this article. But is not apparent to me how that would follow from such a law: For example, since anyone can access tor, and, by implication, any tor exit node, access to a tor exit node is not restricted in any way, so it would not seem to fall under this law in my opinion. As for running a tor hidden service, this would seem to apply but still: How do you draw the line between running a service where it just so happens that criminal business is conducted over that service, versus running a service whose purpose or activity is actually directed towards aiding crime?
- cf498 8y ago
  As I understand it it targets people hosting darknet markets and aims to allow for longer sentences for just making the market available independent from having to proof individual crimes committed through it. If i had to guess its a law as a reaction to the last two big busts of darknet markets/Forums in Germany. DeutschlandImDarkweb and Elysium. In both cases, the admins were largely sentenced for crimes unrelated to hosting the site. DeutschlandImDarkweb for aiding a murder by allowing the weapon sales to the munich shooter and Elysium for actually raping kids. With this law it will no longer be necessary to proof that individual sales through the platform actually happened. Not great, but (still) far away from outlawing tor exit nodes.
  - mreome 8y ago
    That sounds like a reasonable explanation for the reason behind the law, but vague wordings are still problematic, more so when it comes to any complex technology. You don't want a vague law that could be reinterpreted as making it illegal to provide end-to-end encryption for non-financial or other legally protected data (the argument being that if there is no need for it from a business or legal perspective, then it must be encouraging illegal activities as why else would it need to be encrypted).
_bxg1 8y ago
Does anyone familiar with German politics know how likely it actually is to be ratified? Politicians here in America love to draft soapbox bills that they know will never get ratified, just for the publicity.
- blastbeat 8y ago
  It would not be the first time, that such a law finally passes the parliament. And it would not be the first time, that such a law is invalidated by the Federal Constitutional Court after that.
  - maze-le 8y ago
    We cannot always hope that the Constitutional Court comes to the rescue and is the final straw that will invalidate these laws. First, last year a very conservative constitutional judge has been appointed, which probably will be more common, especially now that a reactionary party has become part of the House of representatives. Second, the court has made problematic rulings in the past -- even under more liberal judges.
    - anoncake 8y ago
      > especially now that a reactionary party has become part of the House of representatives. What does the US parliament have to do with this?
      - maze-le 8y ago
        Nothing, I just wanted to use another word for the Budestag, since it is an equivalent institution and not everyone is familiar with the german political institutions. Especially the Bundestag and Budesrat (equivalent to the Senate) is often mixed up. The reactionary party I was referring to is of course the AfD, not the GOP.
        anoncake 8y ago
        > Nothing, I just wanted to use another word for the Budestag, since it is an equivalent institution and not everyone is familiar with the german political institutions. House of Representatives is not another word for the Bundestag, its the name of the lower house of the US parliament. Which Im sure does not have exactly the same role as the Bundestag. > Budesrat (equivalent to the Senate) It isnt. For example, Senators are elected as senators, the Bundesrat is a representation of the state governments. Their roles also differ. You cant just map political institutions 1:1 like that.
Scarbutt 8y ago
Surprised, as an outsider, I have always seen Germany with the most privacy conscious and aware people of any country. EDIT: I was mostly referring to normal citizens, not the goverment.
- valerij 8y ago
  actually the situation in germany in getting hotter as years pass. last year it was reported that on numerous occasions german police were using cell-tower data and cross referencing burner and real mobile phones just to get some guys who were doing graffiti. wonder what data they acquire for everyone involved in more serious crime cases
  - blastbeat 8y ago
    I agree. The idea, that Germany leans to privacy is as misleading as the idea, that German health care is superior compared internationally.
    - expertentipp 8y ago
      > that German health care is superior compared internationally. Their healthcare is very cost inefficient [1]. Poorer post-Communist countries have more efficient healthcare as it might be bad but as well is rather cheap there. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-19/u-s-near-bottom-of-health-index-hong-kong-and-singapore-at-top https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-19/u-s-near-...
  - ben_w 8y ago
    That seems implausible given that everyone I’ve talked to about graffiti since moving to Berlin regards it as “not a crime” (unless its removal necessarily causes damage to the property).
    - akuji1993 8y ago
      It is indeed a crime. Just because your friends don't think so, doesn't make it legal. It's an act of vandalism, anywhere but clearly marked zones that are meant for street art.
chopin 8y ago
It seems that any end-to-end encrypted messenger could fall into this as well. I've not seen the draft itself but if it is too broad it could be unconstitutional.
013a 8y ago
What is it with Germany and a continual bias toward fascism?
- kkarakk 8y ago
  isn't it a global phenomenon at this point? it is trendy to call for a smaller world/craft anti-populace measures lest it get "out of control". the internet is basically the wild west and just like the wild west it will be tamed for profit
- Proven 8y ago
  Socialism. Before it was national-socialism, now it's international-socialism (EU). Unlike the earlier episode, this approach actually works for most of the continental EU. They don't mind it as long as Germany's government allows them to spend more than they earn. What's interesting is that many North Americans haven't learned a thing from the misery socialism wrought upon Europe both before and now, and increasingly identify with AOC, Bernie and similar characters
- ajvs 8y ago
  Their modus operandi hasn't changed even after two world wads.
- e12e 8y ago
  It's not a German thing, it's a late state capitalism thing.
  - hannasanarion 8y ago
    I think you mean "late stage". It's supposed to be a cancer pun.
    - e12e 8y ago
      Yes. Although now that you point it out, I think it works either way [ed: as a cancer analogy, rather than a pun, though] .
  - 8y ago
1337shadow 8y ago
Does this have a real chance of passing through ?
LinuxBender 8y ago
Is this specific to Tor, or would it also affect CDN's? I am not a fan of commercial CDN's (for my own hobby sites) so I set up haproxy+strongswan VPN nodes in various VPS sites around the world, that cache and relay traffic to/from a few nodes in another VPS. For all intents and purposes, my websites are actually hidden, despite having public IP addresses and names. I've had front-end caching nodes in Germany before.
- mreome 8y ago
  I think CDN's would be harder to argue as being included. The vagueness seems to put things more like Tor and end-to-end encrypted chat at risk. Any service could be involved with illegal actives, but if there is a clear and primary business/legal need, then it gets harder to argue that it's main purpose is to "encourage illegal actives".
- eleitl 8y ago
  Do you have your setup documented somewhere? It sounds intriguing.
  - LinuxBender 8y ago
    I don't, but my setup isn't complicated at all. The front end caching nodes are just haproxy 1.9 (which has very simple caching now) which precluded my need for nginx. Those nodes have strongswan in transport mode using a simple pre-shared key. The backend is just a simple apache 2.4 server. DNS is just NSD with multiple IP's in some of the A records. I don't do any GSLB or Anycast, nothing exciting there. The browser will use whichever IP answers which means the end users could end up on any nodes. I could get fancy and use GeoIP mapping to keep most requests on the same continent. Maybe I should set that up this weekend.
hansflying 8y ago
I STRONGLY encourage everyone not to come to Germany, especially if you are an entrepreneur or a developer. Horrific laws like GDPR, Hackerparagraf, Upload Filter etc. are passed every week. Even the north Korea is more business and IT friendly than Germany.
- yc-kraln 8y ago
  As a counter-opinion, I strongly encourage people to consider Germany where the law ensures your rights as individuals are respected by corporations, regardless of where they are domiciled, and protects people in all circumstances (public health insurance, generous jobless benefits, good work/life culture). It's really nice as an entrepreneur not to worry about getting sick, or how I will feed my family, even in lean times.
  - eleitl 8y ago
    > or how I will feed my family, even in lean times. I see a surprise in your future.
  - expertentipp 8y ago
    > public health insurance, generous jobless benefits, good work/life culture What a surprise when foreigners learn that they cannot opt-out from their monthly healthcare contributions (while debt is accumulating proactively already), the jobless benefits are a minefield and they don't qualify for them, the miserable startup they got job in prays on people depending on visas and stay permits while big industry hire only "doctors" and those from "good families".
atoav 8y ago
AFAIK this is a draft for a new police law in North-Rhein Westfalia (NRW), so it would affect “only” that province. NRW was also the province that made the draft for the infamous new police law. The article says the draft is beeing discussed in the Bundesrat. The draft is mainly targeted on dark net market places, but its formulation is broad enough that one could argue TOR exit nodes could be affected by it (its forbids platforms that enable criminal behaviour, which is arguably nearly everything if you squint your eyes the right way). German privacy activists are mainly suspicous here because there is no real reason for the draft to exist. Running illegal black market sites is already illegal under german law, because the stuff you sell there is illegal — it doesn’t matter if you do it online. Why such a law then?
- e12e 8y ago
  > Why such a law then? Fight "herd anonymity" provided by a large tor network? Ironically(?) that'd make the original purpose for Tor (covert channel for covert operatives) less viable too. Broad, redundant overreaching legislation with ample room for "discretionary" enforcement seems a prime way to enable tyranny in a country otherwise democratic/ruled by a normal three-way powersplit (executive, legislative and judicial branches).
  - tgragnato 8y ago
    National powers want to filter the contents circulating on the net, but the application of the rules is subject to the limitations of enforcement capabilities. And I'm not only thinking to espionage, terrorism, money laundering and child porn, but to article 13 and copyright violations too. The government would like to push for overly broad regulations, but they realise that the application of such creates incentives to adopt and democratise radical technologies. Platform operators who do not want to comply with the regulations can move them beyond national / European borders, or use darknets and decentralization to resist the capacity of police forces. Response: "Let's ban the darknet"
- kbwt 8y ago
  No, this law was proposed by NRW and Hessen, but if passed it would affect all of Germany.
kajumix 8y ago
How effectively would they able to enforce this? Aren't those nodes precisely designed to evade detection? I perversely welcome such surmountable hindrances to liberating technology -- it feeds the antifragility of the target
- aeorgnoieang 8y ago
  I'm pretty sure Tor exit nodes in particular are very public and easy to spot by ISPs and VPS providers, which is why they're very difficult to host at all even now. Traffic on the Tor network itself is designed to evade tracking or interception but exit nodes are required for communications to reach outside Tor.
richardhod 8y ago
This is the same problem we've seen in most countries, especially the US, where technologically illiterate lawmakers make overly-broad laws that can capture all sorts of perfectly decent behaviour, which then allows law enforcement latitude to prosecute who they will, when they will. This is a deliberate ploy in Russia, of course, but in the West, it happens, especially with terrorism and technology laws. IT's really important to stop these and reverse them with literate lawmakers.
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
many even tech literate folks when they hear "tor" they think bitcoins and heroin, but - this article spells it out: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor https://blog.torproject.org/strength-numbers-entire-ecosystem-relies-tor https://blog.torproject.org/strength-numbers-entire-ecosyste... a whole ecosystem is thrown under the bus
StreamBright 8y ago
I am pretty sure that this will stop people using Tor because they cannot figure out any counter measure. People are so dumb, government is so smart.
19h 8y ago
Bullshit. It’s literally saying “if your goal is to allow criminal activities”. Per TMG §8ff any service provider providing a free service whose traffic is neither filtered nor inspected bears neither responsibility nor is required to keep logs. [1] This law cannot be applied in practice as there would need to be non refutable proof that the operation of the nodes would be used to facilitate illegal activities. That’s already illegal if they can prove it, or else it wouldn’t be illegal. Source: my lawyers. I’ve been running massive exit nodes for years in Germany. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html
Technetium 8y ago
If something like this goes through, I consider it my duty to run tor nodes myself. There are multiple cheap VPS services that support you running a node and will have your back if something happens.
daveheq 8y ago
Aye yay yay this is where government gets scary with the internet. Guess what this will not prevent (much) crime, but it will allow the government and their affiliate corporations to track the crap out of you.
elken 8y ago
You would think the Germans would know better with their recent history.
netwanderer3 8y ago
In China they banned all stores from selling butcher knives simply because it was commonly used as a weapon in a fight or to kill someone. If you happen to need to chop some meat at home then you are out of luck as this knife just cannot be purchased legally in store. This case here is pretty much using that same stupid logic.
dimabond 8y ago
Can I use my startup for communication if it doesn't use the Internet at all?: https://github.com/DimaBond174/SpecNet https://github.com/DimaBond174/SpecNet

763 points by ccnafr 8y ago

wcoenen 8y ago

Link doesn't work, it is for translating korean to german

snazz 8y ago
This one does: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.zeit.de%2Fdigital%2Fdatenschutz%2F2019-03%2Ftor-netzwerk-darknet-gesetzentwurf-strafverfolgung-internet-kriminalitaet-anonymitaet%2Fkomplettansicht&sandbox=1 https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=de&tl=en&u=htt...
aw4y 8y ago
change to german to english and it will work
close04 8y ago
Original link (German): https://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2019-03/tor-netzwerk-darknet-gesetzentwurf-strafverfolgung-internet-kriminalitaet-anonymitaet https://www.zeit.de/digital/datenschutz/2019-03/tor-netzwerk...

blastbeat 8y ago

I skimmed through that law draft. Translation: They want you to face jail, if you provide an "internet based service", which "accessibility is restricted due to specific, technical precautionary measures", and which "purpose is to allow or encourage specific illegal actions". They refer in particular to the Tor network and its abuse by serious crime, but how I read this law, you could apply it for all kind of things. For instance if somebody runs an encrypted IRC channel or email service. This is yet another attack on freedom in Germany thanks to the Christian Democratic Union. EDIT: The original law draft can be found here: https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/TO/975/erl/10.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=1 https://www.bundesrat.de/SharedDocs/TO/975/erl/10.pdf?__blob...

akerro 8y ago
>"internet based service", which "accessibility is restricted due to specific, technical precautionary measures", and which "purpose is to allow or encourage specific illegal actions". That's technically what youtube and liveleak do in Germany.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  I want to see everybody at DW go to prison for hosting comments on news articles which could be considered inflammatory. Elites need equal prosecution under law!
- koboll 8y ago
  Can't you just argue that you set up your Tor node with an intent to facilitate legal actions, and don't condone or encourage people to misuse it?
  - mreome 8y ago
    But you would be facing a government arguing that Tor doesn't have any legitimate legal uses... after being put through the process of being raided, having all your equipment confiscated, and being arrested.
    - kbwt 8y ago
      In the currently proposed revision, the law applies to anyone facilitating access to an internet-based service "unless the criminal use of the service is of insignificant importance". See the changes relative to the original draft here: https://www.internet-strafrecht.com/wp-content/plugins/download-attachments/includes/download.php?id=2691 https://www.internet-strafrecht.com/wp-content/plugins/downl...
      - koboll 8y ago
        Does that mean YouTube would be liable for hosting the NZ shooter's terrorist-act livestream? Seems pretty significant.

accnumnplus1 8y ago

Germany first, then the EU.

no1youknowz 8y ago
I can't argue with that and unfortunately for the UK. Due to our leaders being so weak, incompetent and impotent. They will be falling over themselves to implement this to its fullest.
- fvjft 8y ago
  Even after Brexit?
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    Oh totally.
  - ben_w 8y ago
    The current Prime Minister introduced the Investigatory Powers Bill (now Act) when she was in the role of Home Secretary. This act requires all ISPs to record which domains users visit for one year, and provide access to that data without a warrant to a large number of government bodies including the Welsh ambulance services. This act has been ruled incompatible with EU law. The UK is much worse than the EU when it comes to this sort of thing.
  - chmod775 8y ago
    Without the EU the UK would likely be more Orwellian. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bigbrother-ruling/britains-mass-web-spying-faulted-by-european-rights-court-idUSKCN1LT1JY https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bigbrother-ruling/britain...
  - denysonique 8y ago
    @ben_w, @chmod775 It is incorrect to say that United Kingdom would be worse off privacy wise after leaving the EU. The mentioned privacy invasive bill was ruled by the English High Court to be incompatible with the ECHR. EU membership is unrelated to United Kingdom being party to the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR). The Council fo Europe is a distinct organisation from the EU. Please check facts before spreading misinformation.

gatherhunterer 8y ago

This is a proposed bill. The title posted here suggests that it has been ratified and is going to implemented but that has not happened. The translated (and paraphrased) title is "Those Who Make the Darknet Possible Could Soon Be Offenders."

stakhanov 8y ago

The article actually details that the proposal on the table is to make it a crime to run sites whose access is restricted by specific technical measures and whose purpose or activity is oriented towards the goal of aiding crime. The notion that it would become a crime to run a tor exit node is actually speculation on the part of the authors of this article. But is not apparent to me how that would follow from such a law: For example, since anyone can access tor, and, by implication, any tor exit node, access to a tor exit node is not restricted in any way, so it would not seem to fall under this law in my opinion. As for running a tor hidden service, this would seem to apply but still: How do you draw the line between running a service where it just so happens that criminal business is conducted over that service, versus running a service whose purpose or activity is actually directed towards aiding crime?

cf498 8y ago
As I understand it it targets people hosting darknet markets and aims to allow for longer sentences for just making the market available independent from having to proof individual crimes committed through it. If i had to guess its a law as a reaction to the last two big busts of darknet markets/Forums in Germany. DeutschlandImDarkweb and Elysium. In both cases, the admins were largely sentenced for crimes unrelated to hosting the site. DeutschlandImDarkweb for aiding a murder by allowing the weapon sales to the munich shooter and Elysium for actually raping kids. With this law it will no longer be necessary to proof that individual sales through the platform actually happened. Not great, but (still) far away from outlawing tor exit nodes.
- mreome 8y ago
  That sounds like a reasonable explanation for the reason behind the law, but vague wordings are still problematic, more so when it comes to any complex technology. You don't want a vague law that could be reinterpreted as making it illegal to provide end-to-end encryption for non-financial or other legally protected data (the argument being that if there is no need for it from a business or legal perspective, then it must be encouraging illegal activities as why else would it need to be encrypted).

_bxg1 8y ago

Does anyone familiar with German politics know how likely it actually is to be ratified? Politicians here in America love to draft soapbox bills that they know will never get ratified, just for the publicity.

blastbeat 8y ago
It would not be the first time, that such a law finally passes the parliament. And it would not be the first time, that such a law is invalidated by the Federal Constitutional Court after that.
- maze-le 8y ago
  We cannot always hope that the Constitutional Court comes to the rescue and is the final straw that will invalidate these laws. First, last year a very conservative constitutional judge has been appointed, which probably will be more common, especially now that a reactionary party has become part of the House of representatives. Second, the court has made problematic rulings in the past -- even under more liberal judges.
  - anoncake 8y ago
    > especially now that a reactionary party has become part of the House of representatives. What does the US parliament have to do with this?
    - maze-le 8y ago
      Nothing, I just wanted to use another word for the Budestag, since it is an equivalent institution and not everyone is familiar with the german political institutions. Especially the Bundestag and Budesrat (equivalent to the Senate) is often mixed up. The reactionary party I was referring to is of course the AfD, not the GOP.
      - anoncake 8y ago
        > Nothing, I just wanted to use another word for the Budestag, since it is an equivalent institution and not everyone is familiar with the german political institutions. House of Representatives is not another word for the Bundestag, its the name of the lower house of the US parliament. Which Im sure does not have exactly the same role as the Bundestag. > Budesrat (equivalent to the Senate) It isnt. For example, Senators are elected as senators, the Bundesrat is a representation of the state governments. Their roles also differ. You cant just map political institutions 1:1 like that.

Scarbutt 8y ago

Surprised, as an outsider, I have always seen Germany with the most privacy conscious and aware people of any country. EDIT: I was mostly referring to normal citizens, not the goverment.

valerij 8y ago
actually the situation in germany in getting hotter as years pass. last year it was reported that on numerous occasions german police were using cell-tower data and cross referencing burner and real mobile phones just to get some guys who were doing graffiti. wonder what data they acquire for everyone involved in more serious crime cases
- blastbeat 8y ago
  I agree. The idea, that Germany leans to privacy is as misleading as the idea, that German health care is superior compared internationally.
  - expertentipp 8y ago
    > that German health care is superior compared internationally. Their healthcare is very cost inefficient [1]. Poorer post-Communist countries have more efficient healthcare as it might be bad but as well is rather cheap there. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-19/u-s-near-bottom-of-health-index-hong-kong-and-singapore-at-top https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-19/u-s-near-...
- ben_w 8y ago
  That seems implausible given that everyone I’ve talked to about graffiti since moving to Berlin regards it as “not a crime” (unless its removal necessarily causes damage to the property).
  - akuji1993 8y ago
    It is indeed a crime. Just because your friends don't think so, doesn't make it legal. It's an act of vandalism, anywhere but clearly marked zones that are meant for street art.

chopin 8y ago

It seems that any end-to-end encrypted messenger could fall into this as well. I've not seen the draft itself but if it is too broad it could be unconstitutional.

013a 8y ago

What is it with Germany and a continual bias toward fascism?

kkarakk 8y ago
isn't it a global phenomenon at this point? it is trendy to call for a smaller world/craft anti-populace measures lest it get "out of control". the internet is basically the wild west and just like the wild west it will be tamed for profit
Proven 8y ago
Socialism. Before it was national-socialism, now it's international-socialism (EU). Unlike the earlier episode, this approach actually works for most of the continental EU. They don't mind it as long as Germany's government allows them to spend more than they earn. What's interesting is that many North Americans haven't learned a thing from the misery socialism wrought upon Europe both before and now, and increasingly identify with AOC, Bernie and similar characters
ajvs 8y ago
Their modus operandi hasn't changed even after two world wads.
e12e 8y ago
It's not a German thing, it's a late state capitalism thing.
- hannasanarion 8y ago
  I think you mean "late stage". It's supposed to be a cancer pun.
  - e12e 8y ago
    Yes. Although now that you point it out, I think it works either way [ed: as a cancer analogy, rather than a pun, though] .
- 8y ago

1337shadow 8y ago

Does this have a real chance of passing through ?

LinuxBender 8y ago

Is this specific to Tor, or would it also affect CDN's? I am not a fan of commercial CDN's (for my own hobby sites) so I set up haproxy+strongswan VPN nodes in various VPS sites around the world, that cache and relay traffic to/from a few nodes in another VPS. For all intents and purposes, my websites are actually hidden, despite having public IP addresses and names. I've had front-end caching nodes in Germany before.

mreome 8y ago
I think CDN's would be harder to argue as being included. The vagueness seems to put things more like Tor and end-to-end encrypted chat at risk. Any service could be involved with illegal actives, but if there is a clear and primary business/legal need, then it gets harder to argue that it's main purpose is to "encourage illegal actives".
eleitl 8y ago
Do you have your setup documented somewhere? It sounds intriguing.
- LinuxBender 8y ago
  I don't, but my setup isn't complicated at all. The front end caching nodes are just haproxy 1.9 (which has very simple caching now) which precluded my need for nginx. Those nodes have strongswan in transport mode using a simple pre-shared key. The backend is just a simple apache 2.4 server. DNS is just NSD with multiple IP's in some of the A records. I don't do any GSLB or Anycast, nothing exciting there. The browser will use whichever IP answers which means the end users could end up on any nodes. I could get fancy and use GeoIP mapping to keep most requests on the same continent. Maybe I should set that up this weekend.

hansflying 8y ago

I STRONGLY encourage everyone not to come to Germany, especially if you are an entrepreneur or a developer. Horrific laws like GDPR, Hackerparagraf, Upload Filter etc. are passed every week. Even the north Korea is more business and IT friendly than Germany.

yc-kraln 8y ago
As a counter-opinion, I strongly encourage people to consider Germany where the law ensures your rights as individuals are respected by corporations, regardless of where they are domiciled, and protects people in all circumstances (public health insurance, generous jobless benefits, good work/life culture). It's really nice as an entrepreneur not to worry about getting sick, or how I will feed my family, even in lean times.
- eleitl 8y ago
  > or how I will feed my family, even in lean times. I see a surprise in your future.
- expertentipp 8y ago
  > public health insurance, generous jobless benefits, good work/life culture What a surprise when foreigners learn that they cannot opt-out from their monthly healthcare contributions (while debt is accumulating proactively already), the jobless benefits are a minefield and they don't qualify for them, the miserable startup they got job in prays on people depending on visas and stay permits while big industry hire only "doctors" and those from "good families".

atoav 8y ago

AFAIK this is a draft for a new police law in North-Rhein Westfalia (NRW), so it would affect “only” that province. NRW was also the province that made the draft for the infamous new police law. The article says the draft is beeing discussed in the Bundesrat. The draft is mainly targeted on dark net market places, but its formulation is broad enough that one could argue TOR exit nodes could be affected by it (its forbids platforms that enable criminal behaviour, which is arguably nearly everything if you squint your eyes the right way). German privacy activists are mainly suspicous here because there is no real reason for the draft to exist. Running illegal black market sites is already illegal under german law, because the stuff you sell there is illegal — it doesn’t matter if you do it online. Why such a law then?

e12e 8y ago
> Why such a law then? Fight "herd anonymity" provided by a large tor network? Ironically(?) that'd make the original purpose for Tor (covert channel for covert operatives) less viable too. Broad, redundant overreaching legislation with ample room for "discretionary" enforcement seems a prime way to enable tyranny in a country otherwise democratic/ruled by a normal three-way powersplit (executive, legislative and judicial branches).
- tgragnato 8y ago
  National powers want to filter the contents circulating on the net, but the application of the rules is subject to the limitations of enforcement capabilities. And I'm not only thinking to espionage, terrorism, money laundering and child porn, but to article 13 and copyright violations too. The government would like to push for overly broad regulations, but they realise that the application of such creates incentives to adopt and democratise radical technologies. Platform operators who do not want to comply with the regulations can move them beyond national / European borders, or use darknets and decentralization to resist the capacity of police forces. Response: "Let's ban the darknet"
kbwt 8y ago
No, this law was proposed by NRW and Hessen, but if passed it would affect all of Germany.

kajumix 8y ago

How effectively would they able to enforce this? Aren't those nodes precisely designed to evade detection? I perversely welcome such surmountable hindrances to liberating technology -- it feeds the antifragility of the target

aeorgnoieang 8y ago
I'm pretty sure Tor exit nodes in particular are very public and easy to spot by ISPs and VPS providers, which is why they're very difficult to host at all even now. Traffic on the Tor network itself is designed to evade tracking or interception but exit nodes are required for communications to reach outside Tor.

richardhod 8y ago

This is the same problem we've seen in most countries, especially the US, where technologically illiterate lawmakers make overly-broad laws that can capture all sorts of perfectly decent behaviour, which then allows law enforcement latitude to prosecute who they will, when they will. This is a deliberate ploy in Russia, of course, but in the West, it happens, especially with terrorism and technology laws. IT's really important to stop these and reverse them with literate lawmakers.

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

many even tech literate folks when they hear "tor" they think bitcoins and heroin, but - this article spells it out: An Entire Ecosystem Relies on Tor https://blog.torproject.org/strength-numbers-entire-ecosystem-relies-tor https://blog.torproject.org/strength-numbers-entire-ecosyste... a whole ecosystem is thrown under the bus

StreamBright 8y ago

I am pretty sure that this will stop people using Tor because they cannot figure out any counter measure. People are so dumb, government is so smart.

19h 8y ago

Bullshit. It’s literally saying “if your goal is to allow criminal activities”. Per TMG §8ff any service provider providing a free service whose traffic is neither filtered nor inspected bears neither responsibility nor is required to keep logs. [1] This law cannot be applied in practice as there would need to be non refutable proof that the operation of the nodes would be used to facilitate illegal activities. That’s already illegal if they can prove it, or else it wouldn’t be illegal. Source: my lawyers. I’ve been running massive exit nodes for years in Germany. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/tmg/__8.html

Technetium 8y ago

If something like this goes through, I consider it my duty to run tor nodes myself. There are multiple cheap VPS services that support you running a node and will have your back if something happens.

daveheq 8y ago

Aye yay yay this is where government gets scary with the internet. Guess what this will not prevent (much) crime, but it will allow the government and their affiliate corporations to track the crap out of you.

elken 8y ago

You would think the Germans would know better with their recent history.

netwanderer3 8y ago

In China they banned all stores from selling butcher knives simply because it was commonly used as a weapon in a fight or to kill someone. If you happen to need to chop some meat at home then you are out of luck as this knife just cannot be purchased legally in store. This case here is pretty much using that same stupid logic.

dimabond 8y ago

Can I use my startup for communication if it doesn't use the Internet at all?: https://github.com/DimaBond174/SpecNet https://github.com/DimaBond174/SpecNet