10 ms·

The article mixes two seaparate issues: - EU is introducing ETIAS, an electronic authorisation system which is pretty much modeled after the US ESTA system (us

by rmind 8y ago

The article mixes two seaparate issues: - EU is introducing ETIAS, an electronic authorisation system which is pretty much modeled after the US ESTA system (used by visa-free nationals). It will apply to all countries which currently enjoy the visa-free regime with the EU and that includes USA. So, technically it is not a visa, but your details will be pre-checked and it will cost €7 (compared to $14 for US ESTA). Ironically, after Brexit, this requirement will also apply to UK. - There is a separate dispute between EU and US, because US imposes visas on five EU states (Bulgaria, Croatia, Poland, Romania and Cyprus). According the EU law, all EU countries should be treated equally or otherwise reciprocal measures should apply. There have been calls within the EU to respond tit for tat and impose EU visas on US citizens, if the issue does not get resolved soon. As an EU citizen, I can just add that I support both initiatives.

kartan 8y ago
Exactly that. From https://www.eulisa.europa.eu/Activities/Large-Scale-It-Systems/Etias https://www.eulisa.europa.eu/Activities/Large-Scale-It-Syste... " ETIAS is a pre-travel authorisation system for visa exempt travellers." Video explaining the system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=orrBJiXAcSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=orrBJiXAcSU
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  Exactly. An American can still drive to Europe without an ETIAS, so it’s not a visa. Makes sense, don’t it?
  - masonic 8y ago
    An American can still drive to Europe The logistics are a bit tricky, however.
benj111 8y ago
Why do you support the ETIAS initiative? As a EU citizen I benefit from freedom of movement within the EU, why would I want extra barriers being erected between nations? I struggle to see a benefit here, just downsides. Edit: I don't seem to have been clear. I know intra EU travel will remain unencumbered, my point was to illustrate that both the parent and I have been benefiting from that unencumbered travel, so why go the opposite way with other nations.
- ru999gol 8y ago
  How is that hard to understand? Why should we treat US citizens visiting the EU better than the US is treating EU citizens entering the US?
  - anoncoward111 8y ago
    Typical HN smugness in the comments. The original reply is probably referring to Schengen areas and is confused about why on earth ETIAS should apply to them >"I believe in freedom of movement between EU nations"
    - benj111 8y ago
      Are you talking about me? I can't find your quotation anywhere and I made a similar remark. "I benefit from freedom of movement within the EU" ???
  - Symbiote 8y ago
    If there's no other benefit, then we should continue to treat US citizens better than they treat us as good hosts, to maintain the moral high ground on the issue, and to demonstrate our ideals about unrestricted travel.
    - ru999gol 8y ago
      That just seems like an incredibly naive approach to foreign policy.
    - guitarbill 8y ago
      For bad behaviour, you don't help it by there being no repercussions or consequences. Maybe a lesson will be learned, and that will allow a more mature approach next time. It works for children.
  - hyperpape 8y ago
    Because the potential effect is that every EU nation ends up with their citizens needing visas to go to the US. The status quo is that most EU citizens get visa-free travel to the US, but some don't. I'm sure people hope the result is that all EU citizens get visa-free movement, but the opposite seems like a possibility. (I'm not taking sides, as I don't know enough. But there is a big potential downside here).
zaroth 8y ago
Tit for tat is a great model in pre-school. The more mature response is to investigate the underlying issues. Instead of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “We are EU, you must treat us all the same” there could be some acknowledgement that travelers from those countries are disproportionately overstayers and there is a justifiable reason to need to more closely track them. If US travelers are overstaying in any particular EU countries, I would expect and appreciate the same measures would be put in place. Policy should be set based on the reality on the ground and not merely policital fantasy. If those countries citizens are not in fact disproportionate over-stayers than the US should change their policy and apologize. EDIT: This short brief [1] seems to imply there’s room for improvement on the US side. I don’t quite understand why the subjective visa refusal rate is so high for some of these countries when the overstay rate is so low. Unless you argue that the refusals are preventing the overstays, but that is very much unproven. [1] - https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/2018-01/IB4812.pdf https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/2018-01/IB4812....
- sorokod 8y ago
  Tit for tat is an effective strategy for Prisoner's dilemma : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner's_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_itera...
- ketzu 8y ago
  Tit for tat is, as far as I know, very common in diplomatic relationships between countries. The EU wants it's citenzens treated the same, the way you phrased it already accepts that it's the case for the US. The equivalent would be more: "If travelers from any state of the US are overstaying in the EU, I would expect travelers from that US State to need a visa." Would you still appreciate that? (This is a genuine question not hyperbole.)
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  Due to the nature of the Schengen area and the greater independence of an EU member state compared to a US state, there's no real way to track whether a US citizen overstays more in some parts of the Schengen area than others. And I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that at least some of the EU member states in question are on track to join Schengen before the time ETIAS launches in 2021.
zamfi 8y ago
As an EU citizen who wants for “EU countries should be treated equally”, you might want to start at home — Schengen doesn’t include (some of) the countries you listed and citizens of (some of) those countries don’t have the same work rights across the EU itself already. It feels like major hypocrisy to ask the US to treat nationals from those countries equally when the EU itself does not.
- themech 8y ago
  Afaik Poland is in Schengen and Polish citizens can travel/work freely in EU.
  - kyriakos 8y ago
    Schengen or not anyone can travel freely and work anywhere in EU as long as they are EU citizens. I have a Cypriot passport and I can walk into any EU country as if its Cyprus and get a job.
- bad_user 8y ago
  Schengen isn’t EU. Part of it are 4 countries that are not in the EU and the 4 EU members that are not in Schengen are obliged to join it. Also any specific worker rights we don’t enjoy in the EU? I’m a Romanian so am interested in details.
- JoelTheSuperior 8y ago
  Regardless of whether Schengen applies free movement absolutely does.
- renholder 8y ago
  Despite the fact that the United States is not a Schengen participant, so that doesn't equate into their rationale for the visa process with those countries, the work that you say the EU should do (otherwise it's hypocrisy) is nigh complete[0,1,2]. The issue is that the United States has agreements with the EU and, much like when Trump tried to negotiate a trade deal with Germany[3], those deals supercede any deals that may have existed with member states in the past. This scenario, when reversed, would be akin to the EU having a deal with the United States but excluding Texas and requiring all Texans to officially apply for and receiving a visa before travel. Even though they're Americans and the deal with America should supercede, they would be - willfully - ignoring it. [0] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-schengen-standards-2018/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-sch... [1] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-qualify-join-schengen-area/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-quali... [2] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croatia-on-course-for-schengen-zone-entry-in-2020-government-official-idUSKCN1MQ1F2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croat... [3] - https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-eu-2017-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-e...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
hartator 8y ago
The thing is EU is still not a country. It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France and claim French citizenship compared to a Californian fully moving to Texas.
- askmike 8y ago
  It's very easy for a Bulgarian to go and live in France, that's the point. Claiming French citizenship is a different things entirely.
- kyriakos 8y ago
  Any Bulgarian may go to any EU country and get employed, no questions asked. Citizenship is a different thing and I don't see how it's related to this discussion.
  - torstenvl 8y ago
    Small-state citizenship relates to the discussion as one point of comparison as to super-state unity. The United States really is one country, and is Constitutionally required to maintain unity, to have only one front for international affairs, and to allow U.S. citizens to be citizens of the state in which they reside. None of these is true in the EU. EU member states are permitted to leave. Each EU member state carries on its own foreign relations. Each EU citizen maintains citizenship in the EU member state of his or her birth. The EU is not at all analogous to the United States after the Constitution of 1798 and post-Texas v. White. There might be an argument that it's similar to the United States under the Articles of Confederation. Any insistance that they are more similar is a false equivalency. That is the point of GP.
    - kyriakos 8y ago
      I never said EU is one country but the OP said: "It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France". Which is false.
      - torstenvl 8y ago
Tsubasachan 8y ago
Border control should be based on facts not petty politics. What problems does the US have with travelers from Croatia or Cyprus? Explain it and maybe they can fix it and we can move on.
- pstuart 8y ago
  I think you answered your question with your first statement.
asabjorn 8y ago
If you try to look for a cause the countries in question seem to be in the EU block that is the source of much within-EU immigration tension. Immigrating to the US legally is hard, and for someone with few opportunities in their home countries the incentives are higher to find a way to work immigrate to the US. Legal or otherwise. Incentives are different in each direction because working illegally in the rich EU countries is almost impossible, while it is normal in the US. If there is an underlying issue of overstaying when people come from some EU countries where there is an economic incentive to go to the US, then one can understand that the US will respond by imposing visa requirements to ameliorate that. Therefore if overstaying is not a concern when going from the US to the EU then imposing the same requirement in reverse is more of an emotional concern, which might be the right choice if ones goal is to have the EU act as a whole emotionally.
panarky 8y ago
> Ironically, after Brexit, this requirement will also apply to UK If by "Ironically" you mean "Therefore".
Havoc 8y ago
> There have been calls within the EU to respond tit for tat Require everyone from Texas to obtain a Visa. Maybe then the message will sink in
jdavis703 8y ago
As a US citizen who travels to the Schengen area frequently, I also support these measures. Our world needs more open borders and more freedom of movement. I hope this puts pressure on the US government to implement visa policies that support freedom.
raincom 8y ago
Right now, US has a policy that allows no more than 7% of permanent residents from any country. Right now, every member state of EU can have no more than 7%. However, If they can present EU as an unified federation (just like USA), US should impose 7% rule on the EU as a whole.

by rmind 8y ago

kartan 8y ago

Exactly that. From https://www.eulisa.europa.eu/Activities/Large-Scale-It-Systems/Etias https://www.eulisa.europa.eu/Activities/Large-Scale-It-Syste... " ETIAS is a pre-travel authorisation system for visa exempt travellers." Video explaining the system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=orrBJiXAcSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=11&v=orrBJiXAcSU

Scoundreller 8y ago
Exactly. An American can still drive to Europe without an ETIAS, so it’s not a visa. Makes sense, don’t it?
- masonic 8y ago
  An American can still drive to Europe The logistics are a bit tricky, however.

benj111 8y ago

Why do you support the ETIAS initiative? As a EU citizen I benefit from freedom of movement within the EU, why would I want extra barriers being erected between nations? I struggle to see a benefit here, just downsides. Edit: I don't seem to have been clear. I know intra EU travel will remain unencumbered, my point was to illustrate that both the parent and I have been benefiting from that unencumbered travel, so why go the opposite way with other nations.

ru999gol 8y ago
How is that hard to understand? Why should we treat US citizens visiting the EU better than the US is treating EU citizens entering the US?
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  Typical HN smugness in the comments. The original reply is probably referring to Schengen areas and is confused about why on earth ETIAS should apply to them >"I believe in freedom of movement between EU nations"
  - benj111 8y ago
    Are you talking about me? I can't find your quotation anywhere and I made a similar remark. "I benefit from freedom of movement within the EU" ???
- Symbiote 8y ago
  If there's no other benefit, then we should continue to treat US citizens better than they treat us as good hosts, to maintain the moral high ground on the issue, and to demonstrate our ideals about unrestricted travel.
  - ru999gol 8y ago
    That just seems like an incredibly naive approach to foreign policy.
  - guitarbill 8y ago
    For bad behaviour, you don't help it by there being no repercussions or consequences. Maybe a lesson will be learned, and that will allow a more mature approach next time. It works for children.
- hyperpape 8y ago
  Because the potential effect is that every EU nation ends up with their citizens needing visas to go to the US. The status quo is that most EU citizens get visa-free travel to the US, but some don't. I'm sure people hope the result is that all EU citizens get visa-free movement, but the opposite seems like a possibility. (I'm not taking sides, as I don't know enough. But there is a big potential downside here).

zaroth 8y ago

Tit for tat is a great model in pre-school. The more mature response is to investigate the underlying issues. Instead of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “We are EU, you must treat us all the same” there could be some acknowledgement that travelers from those countries are disproportionately overstayers and there is a justifiable reason to need to more closely track them. If US travelers are overstaying in any particular EU countries, I would expect and appreciate the same measures would be put in place. Policy should be set based on the reality on the ground and not merely policital fantasy. If those countries citizens are not in fact disproportionate over-stayers than the US should change their policy and apologize. EDIT: This short brief [1] seems to imply there’s room for improvement on the US side. I don’t quite understand why the subjective visa refusal rate is so high for some of these countries when the overstay rate is so low. Unless you argue that the refusals are preventing the overstays, but that is very much unproven. [1] - https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/2018-01/IB4812.pdf https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/2018-01/IB4812....

sorokod 8y ago
Tit for tat is an effective strategy for Prisoner's dilemma : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_iterated_prisoner's_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#The_itera...
ketzu 8y ago
Tit for tat is, as far as I know, very common in diplomatic relationships between countries. The EU wants it's citenzens treated the same, the way you phrased it already accepts that it's the case for the US. The equivalent would be more: "If travelers from any state of the US are overstaying in the EU, I would expect travelers from that US State to need a visa." Would you still appreciate that? (This is a genuine question not hyperbole.)
jkaplowitz 8y ago
Due to the nature of the Schengen area and the greater independence of an EU member state compared to a US state, there's no real way to track whether a US citizen overstays more in some parts of the Schengen area than others. And I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that at least some of the EU member states in question are on track to join Schengen before the time ETIAS launches in 2021.

zamfi 8y ago

As an EU citizen who wants for “EU countries should be treated equally”, you might want to start at home — Schengen doesn’t include (some of) the countries you listed and citizens of (some of) those countries don’t have the same work rights across the EU itself already. It feels like major hypocrisy to ask the US to treat nationals from those countries equally when the EU itself does not.

themech 8y ago
Afaik Poland is in Schengen and Polish citizens can travel/work freely in EU.
- kyriakos 8y ago
  Schengen or not anyone can travel freely and work anywhere in EU as long as they are EU citizens. I have a Cypriot passport and I can walk into any EU country as if its Cyprus and get a job.
bad_user 8y ago
Schengen isn’t EU. Part of it are 4 countries that are not in the EU and the 4 EU members that are not in Schengen are obliged to join it. Also any specific worker rights we don’t enjoy in the EU? I’m a Romanian so am interested in details.
JoelTheSuperior 8y ago
Regardless of whether Schengen applies free movement absolutely does.
renholder 8y ago
Despite the fact that the United States is not a Schengen participant, so that doesn't equate into their rationale for the visa process with those countries, the work that you say the EU should do (otherwise it's hypocrisy) is nigh complete[0,1,2]. The issue is that the United States has agreements with the EU and, much like when Trump tried to negotiate a trade deal with Germany[3], those deals supercede any deals that may have existed with member states in the past. This scenario, when reversed, would be akin to the EU having a deal with the United States but excluding Texas and requiring all Texans to officially apply for and receiving a visa before travel. Even though they're Americans and the deal with America should supercede, they would be - willfully - ignoring it. [0] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-schengen-standards-2018/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/croatia-ready-meet-sch... [1] - https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-qualify-join-schengen-area/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/romania-bulgaria-quali... [2] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croatia-on-course-for-schengen-zone-entry-in-2020-government-official-idUSKCN1MQ1F2 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-croatia-eu-schengen/croat... [3] - https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-eu-2017-4?r=US&IR=T&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-merkel-germany-e...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

hartator 8y ago

The thing is EU is still not a country. It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France and claim French citizenship compared to a Californian fully moving to Texas.

askmike 8y ago
It's very easy for a Bulgarian to go and live in France, that's the point. Claiming French citizenship is a different things entirely.
kyriakos 8y ago
Any Bulgarian may go to any EU country and get employed, no questions asked. Citizenship is a different thing and I don't see how it's related to this discussion.
- torstenvl 8y ago
  Small-state citizenship relates to the discussion as one point of comparison as to super-state unity. The United States really is one country, and is Constitutionally required to maintain unity, to have only one front for international affairs, and to allow U.S. citizens to be citizens of the state in which they reside. None of these is true in the EU. EU member states are permitted to leave. Each EU member state carries on its own foreign relations. Each EU citizen maintains citizenship in the EU member state of his or her birth. The EU is not at all analogous to the United States after the Constitution of 1798 and post-Texas v. White. There might be an argument that it's similar to the United States under the Articles of Confederation. Any insistance that they are more similar is a false equivalency. That is the point of GP.
  - kyriakos 8y ago
    I never said EU is one country but the OP said: "It’s not as easy for a Bulgarian to go live in France". Which is false.
    - torstenvl 8y ago

Tsubasachan 8y ago

Border control should be based on facts not petty politics. What problems does the US have with travelers from Croatia or Cyprus? Explain it and maybe they can fix it and we can move on.

pstuart 8y ago
I think you answered your question with your first statement.

asabjorn 8y ago

If you try to look for a cause the countries in question seem to be in the EU block that is the source of much within-EU immigration tension. Immigrating to the US legally is hard, and for someone with few opportunities in their home countries the incentives are higher to find a way to work immigrate to the US. Legal or otherwise. Incentives are different in each direction because working illegally in the rich EU countries is almost impossible, while it is normal in the US. If there is an underlying issue of overstaying when people come from some EU countries where there is an economic incentive to go to the US, then one can understand that the US will respond by imposing visa requirements to ameliorate that. Therefore if overstaying is not a concern when going from the US to the EU then imposing the same requirement in reverse is more of an emotional concern, which might be the right choice if ones goal is to have the EU act as a whole emotionally.

panarky 8y ago

> Ironically, after Brexit, this requirement will also apply to UK If by "Ironically" you mean "Therefore".

Havoc 8y ago

> There have been calls within the EU to respond tit for tat Require everyone from Texas to obtain a Visa. Maybe then the message will sink in

jdavis703 8y ago

As a US citizen who travels to the Schengen area frequently, I also support these measures. Our world needs more open borders and more freedom of movement. I hope this puts pressure on the US government to implement visa policies that support freedom.

raincom 8y ago

Right now, US has a policy that allows no more than 7% of permanent residents from any country. Right now, every member state of EU can have no more than 7%. However, If they can present EU as an unified federation (just like USA), US should impose 7% rule on the EU as a whole.