16 ms·
Amazon cargo plane crashes in Texas
- HGMIV 8y agoTragic. I wonder if this will reach the national news media. Also, I am curious as to what caused it.
- supermw 8y agoLooks like they ran out of fuel too early and lost control of the glide due to weight distribution of packages. RIP
- teraflop 8y agoAnd your theory that two separate rare catastrophic failures happened on the same flight, at the same time, is based on what evidence?
- throwawaymath 8y agoTo be fair, plane crashes are themselves quite rare. The person you're responding to doesn't have any evidence for those specific failures, but there must have been at least one instance of catastrophic failure or gross pilot error. You're right they shouldn't be speculating based on nothing, it's just that multiple catastrophic failures aren't that outlandish if we know there's probably been at least one (i.e. the plane crashed).
- jrockway 8y agoThat is typically why planes crash. If one thing goes wrong, it can probably be handled. If everything goes wrong, the results can be disastrous. I am not sure what happened in this case. The plane was losing 7000 feet per minute at the end. I am not sure if a 767 in a stall loses altitude that quickly, but if weight shifted aft then the wings certainly wouldn't be generating lift. But would it not self-correct after a while? I have no idea.
- supermw 8y agoThe fact that the plane crashed and that there’s no trace of oil slicks in the water.
- stordoff 8y agoThat says nothing about the distribution of the packages. That's pure speculation.
- gbil 8y agoI'm in Europe and have read about this in local news sites since hours so I wonder why you think it will not reach US national news
- eganist 8y agoThis is the front page on US CNN right now. https://i.imgur.com/FqitEhc.jpg https://i.imgur.com/FqitEhc.jpg And they typically elevate stories based on reader interest, so the fact that it's so thoroughly minimized (to the right, in red) shows how little anyone cares relative to the other stories.
- entity345 8y agoLet's be realistic here, this is not (national) front page news.
- close04 8y agoIt's the first cargo plane crash with fatalities in 6 years. [0] Since this type of aircraft also carries passengers it's big news. Commercial air travel in the US has a pretty enviable track record. As far as I am aware, outside of the fluke accident that killed one passenger last year when a piece of the engine went through the fuselage, the last fatalities were in 2009, Colgan Air Flight 3407. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_accidents_to_commercial_cargo_aircraft#2019 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_accidents_to_com... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incident...
- alistairSH 8y agoAsiana Air 214 had 3 deaths in 2013. Pilot botched the landing and struck the tail on a seawall at San Francisco. Back portion of fuselage was ripped off, ejecting a handful of passengers and crew. For US-based carriers, you are correct. Ignoring international carriers operating in the US strikes me as slightly disingenuous (though lots of people do it), as the international carriers should be subject to most of the same regulations as US carriers (when operating in the US). And as a consumer, I'm as likely to be on BA, KLM, or somebody else as I am United when flying internationally.
- dkarl 8y agoThey were flying through/around inclement weather when it happened, and that's what their last audio exchanges were about. No info yet on other factors that could have contributed. https://twitter.com/texmexjunkie/status/1099422950548213761 https://twitter.com/texmexjunkie/status/1099422950548213761
- bluthru 8y agoABC lead with it on its evening news program yesterday.
- alexis_fr 8y agoI can’t comment on the cause, but it reminds me of a UPS cargo plane fire in Dubai. Lithium batteries can’t be extinguished using oxygen-deprivation methods. It is typically the kind of goods that are shipped by plane by mistake. It was featured in an Air Crash Investigation episode named “Fatal Delivery”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sct202 8y agoThat's terrible, and it could have easily been worse had the crash happened closer to Houston.
- Max-20 8y agoThe crew already had 2 overnight flights before could be fatigue and simple mistakes during bad weather.
- chrisseaton 8y agoDo you think you could leave the speculation about cause and fault to the authorities? People have died and you're confident enough to start attributing blame with essentially zero information? Appalling.
- Nomentatus 8y agoGranted, citations were needed for the post you're hammering. (I can't find anything online either way, re sleep loss in this accident.) But the author might not be speculating about the sleep loss, insiders sometimes comment here, in which case there won't be citations. That sleep loss contributes to accidents and is therefore relevant to the discussion (if true) is in no way speculative: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=accident+sleep+loss https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=accident+sleep+los...
- detaro 8y agoAnd this is why HN has the rules about "general news" it has. Discussion of specific issues is interesting, but they're better discussed in extra threads instead of as speculations on a case nothing concrete is known about.
- Nomentatus 8y agoI need you to disambiguate. What do you identify as an irrelevant "specific issue" in this thread?
- detaro 8y agoI haven't called anything "irrelevant". But without anything actually known, comments can basically only reiterate generic points about plane crashes or suggest random possible reasons, which predictably leads to discussions on how it's irresponsible to speculate or suggest specific (now dead) people misbehaved without evidence. It doesn't make for good content, and the fact alone that the crash happened isn't a good topic for HN. This specific subthread starts with either speculation or unsourced claims of lack of sleep: That alone is an interesting topic of discussion, but better placed on a submission about a specific case where this is known to have been a factor, or some general article about it, not here.
- jwildeboer 8y agoFor reliable updates and objective information, as always, consult avherald. For this accident: http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c&opt=0
- tyingq 8y agoAirliners.net is usually interesting to follow as well. Mostly pilots posting: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1416323 https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1416323
- tyingq 8y agoThe FlightRadar image in that thread is pretty telling: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0HZO8GX4AAvxAL.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0HZO8GX4AAvxAL.jpg The last readout they were at an altitude of 1325ft, with a vertical descent of 29504 feet per minute (~335mph). So that reading was (probably) roughly 2-3 seconds before hitting the ground.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- inferiorhuman 8y agoPPRuNe is also quite informative, although the ratio of pilots to peanut gallery has decreased over time.
- drawkbox 8y agoBoeing 767 crashes or emergencies are extremely rare: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Boeing_767 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Accidents_and_inciden... Most are related to human intervention such as terrorism, pilot error, fuel error and only a very small amount are mechanical errors. Of the 12 problems, only 5 were mechanical error. I wonder what the cause of this will be.
- notyourwork 8y agoWow, I find those numbers simply amazing.
- roymurdock 8y agoThe design construction operation and regulation of commercial aircraft is the peak of safe and effective infrastructure technology it’s truly spectacular
- throwawaymath 8y agoThose numbers are outrageous on their own. But what's even more amazing is that not all emergencies result in crashes. Air Canada Flight 143 ran out of fuel halfway into the journey and there were no fatalities! They literally glided to a motor track. That's so incredible a modern movie would have trouble getting its audience to suspend disbelief for it.
- jalgos_eminator 8y agoEh, I think most people can understand gliding pretty easily. What would really mess with their heads is a helicopter losing its engine and autorotating down to safety.
- PopeDotNinja 8y agoHelicopters are often easier to land than planes. Landing a helicopter without power is part of learning how to fly a helicopter in the first place... https://youtu.be/pL1-QH7eQAY https://youtu.be/pL1-QH7eQAY Landing a 767 without power, not so much... https://youtu.be/GlkCofOyxUA https://youtu.be/GlkCofOyxUA
- entity345 8y agoHopefully they have a contingency plan to keep those Prime parcels on time. Edit: They must have contingency plans for such scenarios. That's part of the job. But I think that it is not possible to keep to the initial schedule, so I'm guessing that the plan is to re-despatch ASAP to minimise delays while displaying the standard "delayed-apologises" to customers.
- navbaker 8y agoAre people downvoting because they think you’re being heartless? Is this not a valid concern that businesses have to deal with even in the midst of dealing with the tragic loss of life?
- entity345 8y agoI do know 3 people on board died, and yes that's tragic. But is there a need to comment to say and repeat it again and again? This is really the fake, superficial side of social media I hate. The disaster planning and recovery angle seemed on point to me on HN. This is not Facebook or Reddit...
- ikeboy 8y agoThis is not a valid concern. The cost of refunding all the packages will be trivial compared to the cost of the plane, Amazon will apologize to the customers and refund or offer replacement, no special contingency plan needed.
- entity345 8y agoTotal loss of shipment is a valid concern in the supply chain and transport industries... Remember also that the total loss of the plane impacts more that this single flight. Like airlines, I am sure it had an utilisation schedule, and now it's gone so they'll have to account for that. That's why they do have contingency plans... And that's why they develop them with a cool head. Because when disaster strikes people tend to get emotional. Edit: Wikipedia says that Amazon Air operates 39 planes. Sudden loss of one has to have an impact that has to be planned.
- mabbo 8y agoI have gained such respect for the FAA and the NTSB in that every crash is followed up with a root cause analysis that all other industries should be in awe of. When this is all over, we'll know exactly what went wrong. We'll see the FAA issue guidance or rule changes that will ensure it doesn't happen again. And then we'll somehow see an even further reduction in airline crashes. I hope that in a few more years, as more companies join the industry, we may see a similar pattern start to evolve in the space launch industry.
- technofiend 8y agoIf you enjoy reading about risk and root cause analysis in general try the venerable Usenet group comp.risks or read the digest web version at http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/risks/ http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/risks/. It's one of those internet sinkholes that can eat hours of your time.
- trikonasana 8y agoCheck out The Design of Everyday Things by Don Norman too. He talks very highly of the NTSB and their accident investigation reports. The root cause isn’t usually one single error, but a series of mistakes that collectively caused the accident.
- monkeypizza 8y agoI love this newsletter but they switched to sending out content wrapped in pre tags with baked-in newlines a few years ago and the value of fighting through wasn't worth it.
- vonseel 8y agoWhy does this matter? Screen readers or something else?
- monkeypizza 8y agoThe newlines are baked into the rss feed too, which breaks my newsreader. I've talked to the maintainer but they didn't want to change the stack they use to produce it.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jakeinspace 8y agoWas really strange seeing this last night on the news, I was only about 20 miles away. Very curious what the cause was.
- bdz 8y agoAVHerald http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4c497c3c&opt=0
- k2enemy 8y agoInteresting link, thank you. They mention that the debris is spread out over three miles of shallow water. I don't know anything about aviation, but it seems like this would suggest that the plane broke apart above ground.
- justtopost 8y agoHow did you get that from the link? I read 'eyewitnesses report it going in nose first'.
- k2enemy 8y agoIn one of the yellow highlighted sections The crash scene extends over a distance of 3 miles in shallow waters up to 5 feet deep.
- userbinator 8y agoGiven the velocity of impact, it's not unusual for an intact plane to literally explode into tiny pieces upon impact, that continue traveling for quite some distance.
- tyingq 8y agoHere's the ATC chatter around it: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kiah/KIAH-App-Feb-23-2019-1830Z.mp3 http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kiah/KIAH-App-Feb-23-2019-...
- throwawaymath 8y agoFor those unfamiliar (like myself), what is this?
- tlrobinson 8y agoAir Traffic Control recording in the vicinity of the crash.
- Nomentatus 8y agoOne of the radio apps I downloaded for my phone last year included ATC channels as well as police channels. I found it oddly calming and reassuring listening to Chicago police channel, since it proved that someone who gave a damn was always out there, taking care of us.
- anamexis 8y agoI find listening to ATC communications similarly soothing, even when it is regarding accidents or problems. The poise and professionalism of ATC is pretty astounding. My go-to is this YouTube channel, which highlights various bits of ATC communication and overlays maps as it happens https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuedf_fJVrOppky5gl3U6QQ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuedf_fJVrOppky5gl3U6QQ
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- pmohun 8y agoWhat was the app called?
- Nomentatus 8y agoIn case it hasn't occurred to you, items of medical use and relevance are sold by Amazon. It's not impossible that a death as a result of this accident will be caused by an item not arriving on time. As well, disabled people can't run to the store for items they may badly need, say for mobility, when Amazon fails them. I'm very used to discourse that ignores the existence of the disabled and medically compromised persons; but this is callous. #disabilitydenial
- ikeboy 8y agoThe rate of missed delivery dates from Prime won't be appreciably affected by this incident. I sell through FBA and see how much stuff gets returned for "missed fulfilment promise". The rates might surprise you. I've also sold medical products and once got a feedback crediting it with saving someone's life (was a blood pressure monitor).
- daveFNbuck 8y agoAmazon Prime delivery isn't reliable enough for those use cases anyway. Prime packages arrive late all the time. If you might die from a small delivery delay, you need to order things earlier or find a different source.
- Nomentatus 8y agoThen please, please suggest an alternative. The truth about being disabled is that you are very often forced to "rely" on services that are not reliable for your use case; but they're still all you have. Disabled people are put in the position of risk constantly - risks others are oblivious to or cheerfully force them into. Why is so amazing or frivolous on my part to think that Amazon might plan in advance to ensure good services in case of accident, whether on the road or in the air? #ableism #disabilitydenial
- AnthonyMouse 8y agoThere are well known ways to build reliable systems out of unreliable ones through the use of slack and redundancy. If you need something to live, you don't wait until you have a 48 hour supply and then rely on two day delivery, you keep a two week or more supply so that if delivery fails you have plenty of time to realize this and source it from somewhere else before it becomes an emergency. And if it does become an emergency, there are emergency services for that. Go to a hospital and they will have or fly in just about anything. This is almost certainly far more expensive than not running everything down to the wire to begin with, but at least you don't die.
- yeaaaaaaah 8y agoThis is so sad Alexa play Despacito.
- ronnier 8y agoMore articles https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6737937/Atlas-Air-cargo-jet-operating-Amazon-Prime-Air-reportedly-crashed-approach-Houston-Texas.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6737937/Atlas-Air-c... Last photo https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/1099397894589816832 https://twitter.com/AirlineFlyer/status/1099397894589816832
- Scoundreller 8y agoVASAviation (Youtuber that publishes ATC recordings and plots them on a map with weather) for this incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cn58iVuzBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cn58iVuzBY [2mins30]
- dontbenebby 8y agoI was surprised to learn Amazon has it's own planes. I always assumed that cargo planes carried cargo from a variety of companies.
- t3rabytes 8y agoAmazon doesn’t own them, Atlas Air owns and operates them for Amazon. Groups like American Airlines Cargo and Emirates Cargo do have mixed loads though, but these Prime jets are more akin to UPS and FedEx jets that serve a single user.
- dontbenebby 8y agoInteresting fact, thanks for sharing. When I lived near a major cargo airport for Fedex, I often got Prime stuff delivered via Fed Ex, which I assumed was intermingled. I didn't realize Amazon also had it's own literal fleet.
- edward 8y agoOn Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Air_Flight_3591 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_Air_Flight_3591
- kyleblarson 8y agoATC recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cn58iVuzBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cn58iVuzBY
- alanh 8y agoi thought the domain was webtv.com for a second. (WebTV was how my paternal grandparents used the Internet.)