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Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

252 points by curtis 8y ago

felipemnoa 8y ago
>>Sales averaged less than 20,000 per year, not enough to sustain the costly undertaking. That to me sounds like a decent number. I guess they were selling them at a loss.
- bodine30 8y ago
  The one part of this that I feel like I understand is that if you buy this vehicle you've effectively signed up for twice the maintenance expense. While I feel this was a brilliant step in the direction of stop gap between gas and electric vehicles; I could never bring myself to pull the trigger.
  - organsnyder 8y ago
    Why? Yes, there are more components than either a pure ICE or pure EV, but that doesn't translate to "twice the maintenance expense". In my experience (we own a Pacifica PHEV), a PHEV means less expense than a 100% ICE vehicle, but more than a pure EV.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Is it twice the expense? Probably not. Plug in hybrids are simply the worst of both worlds. You still need an engine and everything that goes with it, and your all electric range is anemic. Why would I buy a Volt when I could buy a Model 3, a Leaf, or another EV? Electricity is cheap, no need for fuel or oil changes, and the driving experience is better (at least in Teslas with quick 0-60 times). You also are still eligible for the federal tax credit at its full amount for EVs where the manufacturer hasn’t sold 200k EVs yet. The Volt died for the same reason the SR71 did: it was no longer needed. Disclaimer: Tesla owner
      - username223 8y ago
        > Why would I buy a Volt when I could buy a Model 3, a Leaf, or another EV? Because you could commute on pure battery, but still drive anywhere an ICE can go without having to plan your route around charging stations and kill time while your vehicle charges. Seems like a reasonable use case to me...
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Tesla sells ~25k vehicles a month to customers (enough that they’ve cannablized sales from BMW in California) who don’t mind stopping at fast DC charging stations. The market has spoken (wrt EV vs PHEV). While the Volt had a niche, it seems it wasn’t competitive enough versus newer market competitors.
        tzs 8y ago
        ...and around 475k ICE vehicles a month are sold in the US. PHEVs seem like a nice option for the people who find that an EV is not suitable for their long distance travel, but would like something environmentally friendly for their short distance needs, and do not want to have two cars.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Buy a Prius and carbon offsets until EVs advance further if you’re absolutely set on not wanting to fast charge when traveling and use a liquid fuel instead. Don’t demand a niche product that no one wants to build.
      - chaostheory 8y ago
        I don't need to spend hours charging my car if I want to go beyond my commute. I simply go to a normal gas station and my Volt effectively functions as a hybrid. With gas, Volts have a 300 mile range. Also if my charger somehow fails in the middle of the night, I can still drive to work without issues.
      - brightball 8y ago
  - bsder 8y ago
    > The one part of this that I feel like I understand is that if you buy this vehicle you've effectively signed up for twice the maintenance expense. Then I would challenge your understanding. That combustion motor 1) is not running anywhere near as much as a normal combustion engine, 2) has no mechanical transmission to go bad and 3) can be tuned for a much narrower range of RPMs than a normal engine. Removing a mechanical transmission is huge. Everything else is upside.
  - Tagbert 8y ago
    It doesn't work out to twice the maintenance. In the Volt, then gas engine is only used when you need to take a longer than normal trip. Even then, it is mainly a series generator that runs at a leisurely rev range to supply power to the EV system. It is not stressed the way a normal engine is. Maintenance schedules for the engine are extended as a result. Oil changes, for instance, are automatically tracked and I only had to do one oil change after about 2 years. I'm coming up on 3 years with a gen 2 Volt and it's been very reliable and more fun to drive than the ICE vehicle that it replaced.
  - justinph 8y ago
    The Volt has proven to be pretty reliable, as far as Chevys go. The Prius is widely regarded as the most reliable car you can buy. So, while it might seem logical that the more complex car would be more troublesome, it doesn't play out that way.
  - cmrdporcupine 8y ago
    At >50,000km on my Volt and have had to do no maintenance other than changing back and forth between winter and summer tires. No oil changes, no fluids, nothing. Averaging 1.2l/100km You're simply wrong.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- femto113 8y ago
  For comparison consider that Tesla is selling about that many cars in a month, or that GM sold over 2,000,000 cars last year, so the Volt was only about 1% of their volume. Little sad though because it had some truly innovative engineering.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    I was interested in the Volt myself but after sitting in one decided it was too small. It is essentially a Chevy Cruze body with the Voltec drivetrain. I was banging my head into the roof getting in, while on a similarly small vehicle (Prius) I had ample room. The Volt it sleeker and much better on the eyes than a Prius, but I need my daily driver to have good utility.
    - adrianN 8y ago
      I find it interesting that you think that the Prius is a small vehicle. To me it seems that the Prius is on the large end of mid-sized vehicles. A small car to me would be something like a Daihatsu Cuore or a VW Lupo.
      - digisign 8y ago
        Could be chatting with a taller person.
      - coredog64 8y ago
        Maybe it was the Prius-C or a first gen. Otherwise agree. The non-C Prius has interior passenger dimensions similar to a Camry.
- rmason 8y ago
  The government committed to buy a certain amount of Volts and so did General Electric. It's estimated that there are government subsidies of $250,000 per car. https://jalopnik.com/report-every-chevy-volt-has-over-250-000-in-governmen-5870507 https://jalopnik.com/report-every-chevy-volt-has-over-250-00...
  - curtis 8y ago
    The last paragraph of the article you linked: >So, yeah. The maximum price-per-vehicle for a Chevy Volt is $250,000 per vehicle — right now — if you make all the most pessimistic assumptions and the government hands over all their grant/subsidy money to companies who don't meet the goals built into the programs. And this particular article was written in 2011.
- brightball 8y ago
  They also never advertised it at all. The only people who knew about them either researched them or heard about them from word of mouth. The total absense of advertising for a vehicle that so many people loved has always reeked of lack of commitment from one side of the house. That doesn’t even factor in how Chevy dealerships would actively try to talk you out of them.
  - sitkack 8y ago
    Maybe they got negative commissions or couldn’t gouge on maintenance.
  - felipemnoa 8y ago
    I heard about it when it first came out and frankly the name itself was a turnoff. I had no idea that they were selling so many. Maybe with some better branding it could have done better in the market.
    - Stratoscope 8y ago
      I'm always interested in the issues around naming things. It is a tricky science that I wish I were better at. So I wonder if you could elaborate on what made the name a turnoff? Thanks!
      - felipemnoa 8y ago
        Volt, sounds like a cheap knockoff of Tesla. That was the emotional response I got from it. I imagined that if they could not come up with a more original or cooler name then their car was probably like that too. I could almost see their reasoning for naming it volt: They figured that the Tesla company used that name because of Nikola Tesla, I guess they decided they too should use another name related to electricity, the volt (cue applause at their brilliance). It seemed very lazy to me.
        sib 8y ago
        I don't know about the "rest of the world" but I would be bet that, in December 2010, when the Volt started selling in the US, far more Americans knew that the word "Volt" related to electricity than had heard of Tesla and knew that that word related to electricity. For me, the bigger issue was that the name - to me - implied that it was an electric car, not a hybrid, so it felt like unsubstantiated marketing spin.
dmix 8y ago
Even the Bolt that is replacing the Volt as their go-to-EV is still losing money per car sold (for now): > An unnamed source cited by Bloomberg News estimates that General Motors is expected to take a loss of between US$8,000 and US$9,000 per Bolt sold. A GM spokesman first declined to comment on the expected profitability.[20] Opel refuted that in December 2016 and states that GM has battery cell costs of $130/kWh, and industry is not yet optimized for mass production.[21] A UBS teardown in 2017 suggested slightly smaller losses per vehicle, of $7418 on a base spec, or $5520 on a higher spec vehicle.[22]. They estimate that by 2025 the Bolt will make a profit of about $6000 per vehicle. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Chevrolet_Bolt#/Profitability https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Chevrolet_Bolt#/Profitability
- jaytaylor 8y ago
  I wonder what will change between now and 2025 to enable profitability on Bolts?
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Battery manufacturing scaling up, reducing the per kwh cost. Tesla is supposedly near $100/kWh at the cell level (which is the “holy grail” of EV profitability versus petrol vehicles) with Gigafactory 1 production. For comparison, VW wanted to build their own gigafactory and LG Chem is holding them hostage, threatening to not sell them the batteries they need for their EV inititiaves. Funny enough, VW is buying Tesla PowerPacks for their Electrify America charging stations for peak demand shaving (the Electrify America brand is distinct from VW, as VW is not permitted to VW brand the charging stations as part of their dieselgate settlement). Not a Musk fan, but him and JB Straubel knocked it out of the park with their foresight and strategy (build all the batteries we can, sell them in sexy cars).
    - ianai 8y ago
      I’m more impressed with this company https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119299_zinc-air-battery-project-claims-100-kwh-cost-could-be-headed-to-vehicles https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119299_zinc-air-batter...
deleted 8y ago
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bsder 8y ago
It's a true shame, as GM finally got the little details right on both how the engine was put together as well as the interior fit and finish on the 2017 model. However, it was probably inevitable once batteries got good enough. Removing the combustion engine and replacing it with more batteries probably saves far too much money. The current problem I have with electric vehicles is simply that right now they are "5 year" vehicles instead of "20 year" vehicles. Things are changing so quickly right now, that there is zero probability that any electric car I buy today I will have in 20 years. Contrast that to vehicles bought in the late 1990's/early 2000's that are still in decent shape (barring things like winters in the Northeast US) and still running. And the whole "customers prefer SUV's" thing just drives me bonkers. Customers don't inherently prefer SUV's--the automakers market the hell out of SUV's because they are so profitable. And then everybody has a bunch of vehicles that they won't drive when gas goes up again.
- deleted 8y ago
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- CydeWeys 8y ago
  Realistically speaking, how important is it that a car last 20 years? If it only lasts 10 years, which current EVs seem on track for, so what? You're not actually out that much on an annualized basis. And don't forget that years 11 through 20 on an ICE car are quite a bit more expensive maintenance-wise. Depending on how much you drive, two electric cars over 20 years might well be cheaper than one gasoline car lasting that long.
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    > how important is it that a car last 20 years? It's important for the used car market. I've bought all of my cars used and because I picked cars that had been well maintained I've never had any major issue. The same wouldn't be possible with cars that were at the end of their life at 10 years.
  - bsder 8y ago
    > Depending on how much you drive, two electric cars over 20 years might well be cheaper than one gasoline car lasting that long. This might be true if it weren't for the fact that the price of a new car keeps going up as a percentage of median income rather than down. I had two cars bought new from the late 1990's (one finally got totaled). The annual maintenance cost could be quite high (I calculated that about $4K per year would be the breakpoint) on those and it would still come in lower than the equivalent class of car (another used car doesn't reduce the maintenance much and you have a lump payment). I would have the discussion with my wife to get rid of one of them every year, and every year we would come to the same conclusion--replace them when they die and not before. Now, some of this is dependent upon whether your car is your sole source of transportation and whether you can cope with your car breaking down (money, time, etc.). It was no big deal for me to lose a car and put it in the shop--someone else will have a different reliability calculation.
avs733 8y ago
>It's a true shame, as GM finally got the little details right on both how the engine was put together as well as the interior fit and finish on the 2017 model. Completely agree. I leased a first gen and am now leasing a second gen volt. I'm actually considering buying my current car at the end of the lease. As a bike commuter, it is my only vehicle, which is why I went the hybrid rather than full electric route. The first gen I got rid of at the first opportunity. The car did it's job but the shifter physical design was moronic and the fit and finish was so bad that I actually cut myself on a piece of the interior plastic one day. The 2nd gen is 'just a car' a nice car actually. Excepting a maintenance screwup by a dealer I have had zero - zero - maintenance issues with the second gen. Because I don't ever have to charge it, and don't drive it much, I can usually charge it for free (I'm an apartment dweller). I spend about 80% of the miles on electric. I think I've bought two tanks of gas in six months. Funny story...a friend of mine's mother was actually the lead systems engineer on gen one. I met her at a graduation party and we had about a 3 hr long engineering nerd out over the 1st gen. I asked about a billion 'why did you/why didn't you' questions and was amazed at how many good ideas were left on the table.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > the shifter physical design was moronic The gear shifter? I thought electric cars didn't have those? I thought they were push-pedal-and-go like a go-kart?
  - azhenley 8y ago
    Drive, neutral, reverse, park.
  - hnuser123456 8y ago
    You still shift it into park/drive/reverse. I've been in one but don't remember having a problem with it, besides the atrocious visibility.
  - baobrain 8y ago
    I think they might mean the shifter to change from park/drive/reverse/neutral
cmrdporcupine 8y ago
Best car I've ever owned from a reliability and fun-to-drive perspective. A bit cramped, but it's my commuter car, so don't care. I drive 100+km a day and charge at both ends, and most weeks use no gas. But still have the flexibility to take very long road trips without the hassle of stopping at DC fast charge stations every couple hundred km. When this one dies someday, I'll probably buy another used one if I can find one in good condition. The 2019 model is the best, with 7kw charging, power seats, and a new head unit. Very sad to see it go.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  Completely agree. I bought a used Volt last year, and I love the car. Have all the benefits of an electric car, but I didn't need to make any electrical upgrades in my garage (on 110 volts/12 amps it charges in 10 hours), and I never need to worry about where to find a charger on long trips. I really think it's the perfect car for the vast majority of people with a 1-way commute of 20 miles or less.
- usaphp 8y ago
  > fun-to-drive perspective What do you consider by fun to drive?
  - lgleason 8y ago
    I have a Gen 2. 0-30 in roughly 3 seconds. 0-60 in 7.5 to 8.0. Very zippy in traffic, instant acceleration and the handling is on par with some BMW's.
chaostheory 8y ago
I've had both the 1st gen and 2nd gen Volt. It is truly a great car that's versatile. You can use it on both a commute and road trip with no issues. This is a classic short sighted GM move. I hope that at the very least they somehow sell the Volt to another major manufacturer. I'm not transitioning to the Bolt.
rossdavidh 8y ago
Somehow, I am kind of reminded of GM's Saturn division. 1) make a concept 2) consumers like it 3) but GM can't make it cheaply enough, or sell it at a price that reflects it's cost 4) so they end the model and close the plant I have the impression that what is wrong with GM is not the Volt, or the old Saturn for that matter, but rather the people who run the company.
- uvesten 8y ago
  Correct, at least from my anecdata. Worked for GM in 2010 on drive-by-wire and safety tech for EV:s, but soon quit in disgust. Management had zero drive or vision to make EV’s a reality, and would rather just pump out more gas cars.
  - TheTruth321 8y ago
    You're a dickface.
- cwyers 8y ago
  The story of Saturn is a lot more complicated than that, and it seems like corporate (and union) politics played a much bigger role than the profitability of the cars: https://www.newsweek.com/how-gm-crushed-saturn-77093 https://www.newsweek.com/how-gm-crushed-saturn-77093
  - rossdavidh 8y ago
    Doubtless you are correct, but I just meant basically "GM mgmt seems not to like it when something different comes along". I think it's a gut-level aversion to having to learn to make a different kind of product, or make that product differently.
- cobookman 8y ago
  The volt was ~20-23k all in. I do think GM did a snafu by not advertising the fact you get State & Fed tax credits, and unlike tesla the price is negotiable.
js2 8y ago
Just chiming in as another happy gen2 Volt owner sad to see the car go.
Proven 8y ago
Well, thy likely ran out of some sort of subsidy or tax break and figured that on its own, it'd never make a dime.
gok 8y ago
PHEVs were such a misconceived idea. So many more parts to wear out for such little benefit.
- tjohns 8y ago
  For what it's worth, my Volt has been absolutely reliable. And I hear the same from other Volt owners too. Aside from oil changes and tires, the only real maintenance needed was to top off the battery coolant once. (And that was due to a known manufacturing defect in my batch - fixed under warranty, flawless since.)
- ip26 8y ago
  Think of phev as replacing two cars. Before you had to have one gas car and one electric, for long distance and local trips, respectively. Now with phev you can have only one car that's a bit more complex. That's the dream, anyway
  - masonic 8y ago
    Think of phev as replacing two cars Or as an ICE towing an EV, or vice-versa. You're lugging around both motors at all times.
    - sharpneli 8y ago
      Bit more than that. It’s just a hybrid car (like prius) with all the benefits of that like regenerative braking, but with larger batteries. Not as large as full ev.
      - masonic 8y ago
        And in both cases, you're carrying the full weight of two motors at all times. It's sort of like a Tesla carrying a gasoline can and a generator just for range anxiety. (In fact, that combination would weigh less than an ICE motor and fuel tank.)
        8y ago
bit_logic 8y ago
This was really shortsighted. PHEV is currently the best technology. I think the push for full EV is premature for mass market. It works for niche cases like Tesla, but not something that can be truly mainstream. With current battery tech and infrastructure, EV is a 50 mile technology. It has nothing to do with battery tech itself, doesn't matter how light or dense the battery is. The limit is infrastructure. 50 miles is about what you can charge with a level 1 charger overnight. Within those 50 miles EV is amazing, quiet, clean, it's clearly superior technology. And 50 miles is enough for a lot of vehicle trips such as getting groceries, going to school, commute to work, etc. But imagine you have a 50 mile EV, how to extend the range to something everyone is used to, like 200-300 miles for road trips? There's two options, more batteries or an ICE engine. The problem with more batteries is charge time. It's not good enough right now. Even Tesla is 120kw, which is 30 minutes for 80%. And all other EV are far behind this and the charging network outside Superchargers is pathetic. Range anxiety was only part of the problem, slow charge time will be the bigger issue. It will never be as fast as filling a gas car because that gets into the megawatt range. However, CCS spec can go up to 350kw. This would be good enough, 80% in 10 minutes. Still not fast as a gas car (which is about 5 minutes to fill a tank), but 10 minutes is ok. Combine that with a 300 mile battery, and it can be a road trip car. There's basically no CCS chargers at 350kw and no cars that support that rate. EVs will get there eventually and replace everything (ICE, PHEV, etc.), but it's too early now. Also, there's a limit to worldwide production capacity for batteries. The amount of batteries in one Tesla could support 10 PHEV cars. PHEV is a bridge technology, but it's too early to abandon it. Now is the time when every car model should be changing to PHEV.
- trumped 8y ago
  > how to extend the range to something everyone is used to, like 200-300 miles for road trips? There's two options, more batteries or an ICE engine. quick-change batteries would work for now
  - bit_logic 8y ago
    Tesla tried battery swap and abandoned it. If even early adopter Tesla customers won't accept this idea, it's very unlikely the mainstream will.
trumped 8y ago
hopefully this won't lead to another bailout
technobabble 8y ago
Something I don't understand, but why don't they take the Chevy Bolt chassis and turn it into a PHEV Crossover a la Kia Niro? They already have the platform developed, and crossovers seem to be all the rage.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  I'm almost certain they will. The tech they used isn't going anywhere. It's simply that no one buys sedans. I expect to see a Volt-powertrain-derived crossover or SUV soon.
  - walrus01 8y ago
    No one buys small sedans for the American market, sure, but cars the size of a Yaris or Corolla seem to be wildly popular in the rest of the world.
    - Baeocystin 8y ago
      If I'm reading this properly (and fair warning, there's a lot of data, I could easily be mistaken) it looks like sedans are dropping in popularity across the globe- but that 'mini-SUVs', crossovers, or whatever you call a small sedan-sized hatchback nowadays are gaining popularity. http://carsalesbase.com/global-car-sales-2017/ http://carsalesbase.com/global-car-sales-2017/ Aside from the sedan question per-se, it's interesting to me see tastes change so rapidly.
ProfessorLayton 8y ago
That’s too bad, the Volt’s powertrain made a lot of sense for those aren’t able to get an EV due to it being impractical (Many apartments). What’s interesting is that Honda’s hybrids have basically the same drivetrain as the now discontinued Volt. They too discontinued (edit: some) of their plugin hybrids, which is also too bad. Looks like the Prius plugin is gonna be the car to pick for a plug-in hybrid. I wish it looked much better, but judging by their success, Toyota seems to know what it’s doing with the Prius’ styling.
- mrpippy 8y ago
  The Honda Clarity is their current plug-in hybrid (unfortunately not available in the Accord any more)
  - lgleason 8y ago
    and sadly not as good looking as the Volt.
- timbit42 8y ago
  Also, Subaru is coming out with a Crosstrek using the Prius Prime technology. It's not as fuel efficient but it's AWD and I personally find the Crosstrek stylish.
joeblow21 8y ago
Ugly POS.
evv 8y ago
Kind of a fucking shame. As individuals, we are generally quite powerless in the climate crisis. The world is being ruined by companies and governments that we generally cannot influence. The power we retain: how we spend our money. Electric vehicles offer perhaps the most significant opportunity for the average consumer to improve the carbon emission status-quo. Regardless of the ecological impact, I've quickly come to see ICE cars as quite gross. I don't want tail pipes, the smell of gasoline fumes, or the angry noises. My E-Golf is delightfully zippy and quiet. For the driving experience, I'd choose this car in a heartbeat over any old-fashioned-engine auto. That being said, it does suck to have an EV because of range anxiety, having to hunt for charging stations, and being forced to camp while the car charges. I really wish I had an PHEV to address these issues, but there are sadly few options on the market today. I can only drive an EV because I've installed a charger at home, but most people do not have the ability to do so. I'll have to get rid of my EV when I move, downgrading to mini-explosions in my car. ...which leads to my point: If Tesla was serious about transitioning the world to sustainable energy, they would build a full PHEV lineup, or offer generator options for their existing cars. You need to appeal to the vast majority of consumers who are not ready for full electric. But I suspect Tesla won't do this because they have too much pride.
- lrem 8y ago
  According to my neighbour it is no problem to drive a Tesla 2700km from Switzerland to Finland, through Germany, Czechia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
  - usrusr 8y ago
    Just don't pat yourself on the back too hard for that. That route takes you through some of the most CO2-intensive electricity grids. A Tesla charged in Poland is a much dirtier car than a Tesla charged in California or Switzerland. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying that making that trip is a terrible thing to do. I do worse things myself, e.g. traveling by plane. We all have the option of instantly reducing or CO2 footprint to that of our bodies decomposing but none of us is willing to go that far.
throwaway29374 8y ago
almost certainly current US policies are making it more difficult for EV to compete. Kind of subtle point. Make sure we don't have to deal with dipshits in the future. Vote!
nimbius 8y ago
Disclosure: im an automotive engine mechanic by trade. The Volt was a political nightmare. trade rags beat this car night and day for being a fake. but honestly its a damn good car. it was never going to see tesla style torque or mileage but the people driving it werent the whole foods kind of crowd anyway. the hybrid electric was borne out of the need to create something that couldnt be patent-struck by toyota, whos hybrid synergy drive is basically the entire hybrid market outside of Komatsu/Caterpillar these days. electric motor final drives until the engine kicks in to drive the electric motors also allowed them to avoid the honda tax on motors in the transmission that assisted the drive inline. the engine drive was crucified by its owners for ever starting. in-town drivers would be well under the range of the vehicles batteries, yet routinely traded the car in or returned it when the engine kicked on. What they didnt understand is that this was done to prevent stale fuel or cycling problems in cold weather. The ECU was smart enough to maintain the engine even when you didnt need it. If you find one of these used and youre into hybrid (mostly) electric drives, id recommend it. it has a planted and firm drive, similar to a windstar minivan but without the body roll. The stereo is also surprisingly overpowered for something like this as it borrows heavily from Fords Shaker platform (harmon kardon.)
- speedplane 8y ago
  > The Volt was a political nightmare. trade rags beat this car night and day for being a fake. but honestly its a damn good car. So you're saying widely publicized biased opinions based on antiquated but longstanding social norms were able to prevent good engineering, measurably better than the status quo, from coming to market? Are you saying that marketing and media can often overcome solid facts? Welcome to humanity.
  - gameswithgo 8y ago
    When audi first introduced continuously variable transmissions they had to make them act like discrete transmissions because users complained it felt like the tranmission was slipping. arrggghghghg
    - 8y ago
zed88 8y ago
Being a leaf driver, this would have been a good deal for me only if they could make it about 20% cheaper. Sad to see it go.
chiefalchemist 8y ago
"Yet the Volt did serve a purpose. It led to advances in lithium-ion batteries similar to those that power smart phones and computers. But such advances ultimately led to the Volt's demise as GM and other manufacturers developed fully electric vehicles that can go 200 more miles per charge." A better headline would be: The Volt Dies but the Bolt Lives On.
peter303 8y ago
I call out BS one dollar a charge. At 12 cents a kwh in OK its almost $2 to charge 16 kwh of batteries. And I live in a state adjacent to OK withe the same nominal kwh charge. However when you include all the #$&*: fees (like cellphones) the true cost is 18 cents a kwh. At this rate $2 gasoline in in a compact car is the same cost per mile for electric per mile (6 cents). I suspect he is averaging the free charging at work which cuts the true cost in half.
cmrdporcupine 8y ago
I would conjecture that while GM is _saying_ publicly that they're going full-bore on pure EV they've done a 180 since the end of their federal tax credits and the election of Trump and in fact are doing their best to just focus on what makes them money at home, Equinoxs and Silverados, and make all that weird eco-stuff for markets abroad ... in China. Closing factories in the US and Canada and laying people off is a part of that. Shutting down the Volt is also part of that, as it's a through-and-through domestically produced machine out of Michigan. Trump style politics and climate denying in the 'conservative' movement is setting North America back. In 20 years when the dust settles the locus of production of the next generation of vehicles will be in Asia, and we'll be behind. I love my Volt, it's the best car I've owned. I used to be a big advocate of the GM EV program. The engineering is top notch. But the engineers at GM seem to have been undermined by their management. It's very sad.
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
  Further to my point above, it's worth pointing out that AFAIK the Buick PHEV Velite, the Chinese version of the Volt, isn't scheduled for cancellation. It will be built and sold in China.
fraggle222 8y ago
Should have been new Brand. I feel like the Chevy logo and branding didn't help much with Volt sales. They could have done something similar to what Toyota did with Scion. Create a unique logo and branding. Create a high tech brand that isn't associated with "Chevy". Is that just me?
- propogandist 8y ago
  New branding comes with a lot of overhead. If you're spinning a new brand out of a known brand, you'll have to educate customers with large marketing investments. This will have to be massive for the car industry. Given the car's not very profitable already, they'd be running a huge loss for a long time.
- jvandonsel 8y ago
  Agreed. And what's worse is that GM recently announced that Cadillac would be their new flagship EV brand. As a Bolt owner I'm fine owning a Chevy, but I just can't see myself driving something with a Cadillac badge.
- nradov 8y ago
  The Scion brand was a total failure and Toyota closed it down. GM used to have about 10 different brands but that just led to customer confusion and was a waste of resources.
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
I’m not surprised, they were hideously ugly. Is there a reason most electrics are God-awful, looks wise? I’d say it has to do with shape considerations brought about by the batteries, motor, or aerodynamics, but Teslas look great and better than other cars.
cmrdporcupine 8y ago
While GM is killing it here, they're pushing the Voltec drivetrain in China: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19843069/velite-nik-buick-unveils-velite-6-phev-and-ev-in-china/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19843069/velite-nik-buick...
anovikov 8y ago
Why are people so against it? I mean, plug-in hybrids are a dead end, they made sense only when batteries were super expensive. With almost all producers being under $200/kwh and some under $130/kwh, with $100/kwh just around the corner, what's the point of a plug-in hybrid?
- timbit42 8y ago
  Zero fuel costs on short trips and unlimited range when you need it without needing to wait for recharges.
  - anovikov 8y ago
    But expensive and can't be made cheap because it combines complexity and cost of ICE and EV. Was always meant to be just a temporary solution to kickstart li-ion battery mass production to drive down costs.
    - timbit42 8y ago
      Yes, but the 'temporary' phase hasn't ended yet.
      - anovikov 8y ago
        It did. Cost of ICE is adding ca. $7000 to a car's price tag. It buys 35-55 kwh of battery capacity in addition to 10-15 a plug-in hybrid requires. Getting to healthy 45-70 kwh which is typical for a full-on electric car. GM has Chevy Bolt which is a living proof to that.
- erik_seaberg 8y ago
  Hybrids (or battery swaps) make sense until apartments and employers have power outlets for every parking space.
  - anovikov 8y ago
    Not really. For daily driving cycle, you will have enough of battery for charging just once per day, overnight, if you can't do it then plug-in hybrid is of no value to you compared to an ICE car (or a traditional non-plugin hybrid), simply because you don't plug in. For long journeys, you need fast chargers anyway, and you mostly have it on highways.
Causality1 8y ago
A shame. The Volt's been my dream car since I saw the concept vehicle in Popular Science when I was in high school but I was never able to afford one. The cheap daily commute of an electric car combined with the instant fill-up and range of a gas vehicle. Not to mention since the battery pack is much smaller than an all-electric it would be much cheaper to replace once it eventually wears out. Seems I'll never get one, now.
tpolm 8y ago
People are no longer buying EVs when there are no more $7500 tax breaks (they are expiring this year)? Who could have possibly predicted that :)
Scottn1 8y ago
I fit the concept of the Volt perfectly; Married, Mid 40's male, one kid (6yo), under 50 miles 5 of 7 days a week, wife drives SUV so we have that when needed. Spring of 2017 I was ready for new car and I so wanted to get a Volt as I've been eyeing it for a few years (especially the new revamped model) thinking I would be ahead of all our friends in going EV and saw myself at parties telling people how I haven't been to gas station in months, etc. I lurked Volt Forums, read all car review sites and was ready. Then the actual shopping started and reality set... I visited all Chevy dealers in a 30 mile radius of my house, about 4 of them. It quickly became very apparent how this car was just a thorn in GM's side and I got the feeling they did not want to sell this car if they could help it. First dealer I went to for a specific one they had I wanted. When I got there I was told it was at their spillover lot and they couldn't get it that late (7p). But they had one exactly like it just different color right outside I could test drive. The salesman finding the keys for it were a "challenge" and I waited 20 minutes for him to locate them. In the meantime while waiting he asked me if I would be interested in any other of their models, some they have "below wholesale" deals for that would be better than the Volt to own. After telling him no, we got the keys and went to the car outside. I get in to start it, drive it around and notice that we are on the combustion engine the WHOLE time. He didn't know what I was talking about as I explained what the dash was showing - that the main battery was dead and needed an over night charge. He comes back to look for a battery charger and I again tell him he doesn't understand as it isn't a starter type battery typically in cars that needed a charge. I frustratingly left. Second dealer would not go more than $1k lower from sticker on the one I wanted. Wouldn't budge. I showed him how far off he was to Truecar pricing, explained that these things aren't selling well and here I am for a deal I can feel good about. He then tried to suggest I would be better off in the used Volt market for the price I was trying to get, which wasn't out of realm to what others were getting deals at on Forums. I left. Other two dealers didn't even have that many Volts on hand but said they could order. Again we got to prices and I'd order one if right for me and they both told me same as above that this city this car is a premium and there are no discounts given, best they could do blah blah. Especially if they have to order one. I was able to test drive one fully charged at one of these dealers though. The test drive was with my son this time. Him with me realized just how compact this car was, and he wasn't getting smaller. My previous car was a 2007 Mazda3 and it felt roomier inside. With my seat all the way back for my desired driving position, we would not be able to fit a second kid back there. I'd have to scoot pretty far up for him to sit behind me. The quality of the interior actually impressed me and the tech is very cool, but this car even felt smaller than the new Cruze model they had in same showroom. The size of this car is what ultimately made it fail IMO as well as them just not wanting to sell/push for it compared to even the Cruze or Malibu. It seems like they were more interested in selling the Equinox, Malibu and pickup trucks as those dominated the lots. Buyers as a whole have started to want more room and larger vehicles as evident in the sales numbers past few years in USA, and compact cars were a dead man walking. This is what this car was. A Subcompact car with a 33k sticker price that a majority would take one look at and wonder who hell buys this when the Cruze is 20k. It takes a LOT of miles/gas to make up that difference. There is also the 7.5k tax credit that would, on paper, drop this car down in price, but still more than a fully loaded Cruze and in some cases I could get a bigger Malibu for not much more (this all at the time over a year ago). To get that tax credit means you have to owe the IRS that much in taxes, which we never come close to each year. You owe less that 7.5k, your tax credit is less! You owe nothing or get refunds each year (us) you get ZERO credit. I then started to look at used market and started to notice these things were asking prices of more than what new would cost with a full tax credit and there were also very few of them in my area to choose from that had low miles. Basically all ridiculously overpriced enough to where even expert negotiating would be hard pressed to get me a good deal. In the end, I just ended up realizing the Volt wasn't for me, no matter how much I wanted it. I'd be sacrificing space and my wife even asked how I could even think of getting such a small car as my last one was small enough. It was priced as premium from dealers who were oblivious to how poor it was selling it seemed and didn't want to move it regardless. I'd have to really change up our W4's so we could maybe even get the full tax credit. Plus with the poor dealership mentality of this car all in my area, I even questioned how well they'd handle warranty issues or repair when I eventually needed them. The Bolt was so new at the time so it wasn't an option/available in my area and any that were in next state over were MSRP and no budge. I'd be highly interested in the Bolt if I was doing it all over right now, but in the end I moved on from the Volt never to really think again about owning one. America has moved on from compact cars as well. I have one year left on a lease and next year i will look at the Kona and Bolt but also in a segment I thought i'd never want to drive - the compact SUV. CX-5 or Rav4 types. I want an EV bad but it is hard to justify from a economic standpoint still in 2019.

252 points by curtis 8y ago

>>Sales averaged less than 20,000 per year, not enough to sustain the costly undertaking. That to me sounds like a decent number. I guess they were selling them at a loss.

bodine30 8y ago
The one part of this that I feel like I understand is that if you buy this vehicle you've effectively signed up for twice the maintenance expense. While I feel this was a brilliant step in the direction of stop gap between gas and electric vehicles; I could never bring myself to pull the trigger.
- organsnyder 8y ago
  Why? Yes, there are more components than either a pure ICE or pure EV, but that doesn't translate to "twice the maintenance expense". In my experience (we own a Pacifica PHEV), a PHEV means less expense than a 100% ICE vehicle, but more than a pure EV.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Is it twice the expense? Probably not. Plug in hybrids are simply the worst of both worlds. You still need an engine and everything that goes with it, and your all electric range is anemic. Why would I buy a Volt when I could buy a Model 3, a Leaf, or another EV? Electricity is cheap, no need for fuel or oil changes, and the driving experience is better (at least in Teslas with quick 0-60 times). You also are still eligible for the federal tax credit at its full amount for EVs where the manufacturer hasn’t sold 200k EVs yet. The Volt died for the same reason the SR71 did: it was no longer needed. Disclaimer: Tesla owner
    - username223 8y ago
      > Why would I buy a Volt when I could buy a Model 3, a Leaf, or another EV? Because you could commute on pure battery, but still drive anywhere an ICE can go without having to plan your route around charging stations and kill time while your vehicle charges. Seems like a reasonable use case to me...
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Tesla sells ~25k vehicles a month to customers (enough that they’ve cannablized sales from BMW in California) who don’t mind stopping at fast DC charging stations. The market has spoken (wrt EV vs PHEV). While the Volt had a niche, it seems it wasn’t competitive enough versus newer market competitors.
        tzs 8y ago
        ...and around 475k ICE vehicles a month are sold in the US. PHEVs seem like a nice option for the people who find that an EV is not suitable for their long distance travel, but would like something environmentally friendly for their short distance needs, and do not want to have two cars.
        toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Buy a Prius and carbon offsets until EVs advance further if you’re absolutely set on not wanting to fast charge when traveling and use a liquid fuel instead. Don’t demand a niche product that no one wants to build.
    - chaostheory 8y ago
      I don't need to spend hours charging my car if I want to go beyond my commute. I simply go to a normal gas station and my Volt effectively functions as a hybrid. With gas, Volts have a 300 mile range. Also if my charger somehow fails in the middle of the night, I can still drive to work without issues.
    - brightball 8y ago
- bsder 8y ago
  > The one part of this that I feel like I understand is that if you buy this vehicle you've effectively signed up for twice the maintenance expense. Then I would challenge your understanding. That combustion motor 1) is not running anywhere near as much as a normal combustion engine, 2) has no mechanical transmission to go bad and 3) can be tuned for a much narrower range of RPMs than a normal engine. Removing a mechanical transmission is huge. Everything else is upside.
- Tagbert 8y ago
  It doesn't work out to twice the maintenance. In the Volt, then gas engine is only used when you need to take a longer than normal trip. Even then, it is mainly a series generator that runs at a leisurely rev range to supply power to the EV system. It is not stressed the way a normal engine is. Maintenance schedules for the engine are extended as a result. Oil changes, for instance, are automatically tracked and I only had to do one oil change after about 2 years. I'm coming up on 3 years with a gen 2 Volt and it's been very reliable and more fun to drive than the ICE vehicle that it replaced.
- justinph 8y ago
  The Volt has proven to be pretty reliable, as far as Chevys go. The Prius is widely regarded as the most reliable car you can buy. So, while it might seem logical that the more complex car would be more troublesome, it doesn't play out that way.
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
  At >50,000km on my Volt and have had to do no maintenance other than changing back and forth between winter and summer tires. No oil changes, no fluids, nothing. Averaging 1.2l/100km You're simply wrong.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
femto113 8y ago
For comparison consider that Tesla is selling about that many cars in a month, or that GM sold over 2,000,000 cars last year, so the Volt was only about 1% of their volume. Little sad though because it had some truly innovative engineering.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  I was interested in the Volt myself but after sitting in one decided it was too small. It is essentially a Chevy Cruze body with the Voltec drivetrain. I was banging my head into the roof getting in, while on a similarly small vehicle (Prius) I had ample room. The Volt it sleeker and much better on the eyes than a Prius, but I need my daily driver to have good utility.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    I find it interesting that you think that the Prius is a small vehicle. To me it seems that the Prius is on the large end of mid-sized vehicles. A small car to me would be something like a Daihatsu Cuore or a VW Lupo.
    - digisign 8y ago
      Could be chatting with a taller person.
    - coredog64 8y ago
      Maybe it was the Prius-C or a first gen. Otherwise agree. The non-C Prius has interior passenger dimensions similar to a Camry.
rmason 8y ago
The government committed to buy a certain amount of Volts and so did General Electric. It's estimated that there are government subsidies of $250,000 per car. https://jalopnik.com/report-every-chevy-volt-has-over-250-000-in-governmen-5870507 https://jalopnik.com/report-every-chevy-volt-has-over-250-00...
- curtis 8y ago
  The last paragraph of the article you linked: >So, yeah. The maximum price-per-vehicle for a Chevy Volt is $250,000 per vehicle — right now — if you make all the most pessimistic assumptions and the government hands over all their grant/subsidy money to companies who don't meet the goals built into the programs. And this particular article was written in 2011.
brightball 8y ago
They also never advertised it at all. The only people who knew about them either researched them or heard about them from word of mouth. The total absense of advertising for a vehicle that so many people loved has always reeked of lack of commitment from one side of the house. That doesn’t even factor in how Chevy dealerships would actively try to talk you out of them.
- sitkack 8y ago
  Maybe they got negative commissions or couldn’t gouge on maintenance.
- felipemnoa 8y ago
  I heard about it when it first came out and frankly the name itself was a turnoff. I had no idea that they were selling so many. Maybe with some better branding it could have done better in the market.
  - Stratoscope 8y ago
    I'm always interested in the issues around naming things. It is a tricky science that I wish I were better at. So I wonder if you could elaborate on what made the name a turnoff? Thanks!
    - felipemnoa 8y ago
      Volt, sounds like a cheap knockoff of Tesla. That was the emotional response I got from it. I imagined that if they could not come up with a more original or cooler name then their car was probably like that too. I could almost see their reasoning for naming it volt: They figured that the Tesla company used that name because of Nikola Tesla, I guess they decided they too should use another name related to electricity, the volt (cue applause at their brilliance). It seemed very lazy to me.
      - sib 8y ago
        I don't know about the "rest of the world" but I would be bet that, in December 2010, when the Volt started selling in the US, far more Americans knew that the word "Volt" related to electricity than had heard of Tesla and knew that that word related to electricity. For me, the bigger issue was that the name - to me - implied that it was an electric car, not a hybrid, so it felt like unsubstantiated marketing spin.

dmix 8y ago

Even the Bolt that is replacing the Volt as their go-to-EV is still losing money per car sold (for now): > An unnamed source cited by Bloomberg News estimates that General Motors is expected to take a loss of between US$8,000 and US$9,000 per Bolt sold. A GM spokesman first declined to comment on the expected profitability.[20] Opel refuted that in December 2016 and states that GM has battery cell costs of $130/kWh, and industry is not yet optimized for mass production.[21] A UBS teardown in 2017 suggested slightly smaller losses per vehicle, of $7418 on a base spec, or $5520 on a higher spec vehicle.[22]. They estimate that by 2025 the Bolt will make a profit of about $6000 per vehicle. https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Chevrolet_Bolt#/Profitability https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Chevrolet_Bolt#/Profitability

jaytaylor 8y ago
I wonder what will change between now and 2025 to enable profitability on Bolts?
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Battery manufacturing scaling up, reducing the per kwh cost. Tesla is supposedly near $100/kWh at the cell level (which is the “holy grail” of EV profitability versus petrol vehicles) with Gigafactory 1 production. For comparison, VW wanted to build their own gigafactory and LG Chem is holding them hostage, threatening to not sell them the batteries they need for their EV inititiaves. Funny enough, VW is buying Tesla PowerPacks for their Electrify America charging stations for peak demand shaving (the Electrify America brand is distinct from VW, as VW is not permitted to VW brand the charging stations as part of their dieselgate settlement). Not a Musk fan, but him and JB Straubel knocked it out of the park with their foresight and strategy (build all the batteries we can, sell them in sexy cars).
  - ianai 8y ago
    I’m more impressed with this company https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119299_zinc-air-battery-project-claims-100-kwh-cost-could-be-headed-to-vehicles https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1119299_zinc-air-batter...

deleted 8y ago

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bsder 8y ago

It's a true shame, as GM finally got the little details right on both how the engine was put together as well as the interior fit and finish on the 2017 model. However, it was probably inevitable once batteries got good enough. Removing the combustion engine and replacing it with more batteries probably saves far too much money. The current problem I have with electric vehicles is simply that right now they are "5 year" vehicles instead of "20 year" vehicles. Things are changing so quickly right now, that there is zero probability that any electric car I buy today I will have in 20 years. Contrast that to vehicles bought in the late 1990's/early 2000's that are still in decent shape (barring things like winters in the Northeast US) and still running. And the whole "customers prefer SUV's" thing just drives me bonkers. Customers don't inherently prefer SUV's--the automakers market the hell out of SUV's because they are so profitable. And then everybody has a bunch of vehicles that they won't drive when gas goes up again.

deleted 8y ago
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CydeWeys 8y ago
Realistically speaking, how important is it that a car last 20 years? If it only lasts 10 years, which current EVs seem on track for, so what? You're not actually out that much on an annualized basis. And don't forget that years 11 through 20 on an ICE car are quite a bit more expensive maintenance-wise. Depending on how much you drive, two electric cars over 20 years might well be cheaper than one gasoline car lasting that long.
- clouddrover 8y ago
  > how important is it that a car last 20 years? It's important for the used car market. I've bought all of my cars used and because I picked cars that had been well maintained I've never had any major issue. The same wouldn't be possible with cars that were at the end of their life at 10 years.
- bsder 8y ago
  > Depending on how much you drive, two electric cars over 20 years might well be cheaper than one gasoline car lasting that long. This might be true if it weren't for the fact that the price of a new car keeps going up as a percentage of median income rather than down. I had two cars bought new from the late 1990's (one finally got totaled). The annual maintenance cost could be quite high (I calculated that about $4K per year would be the breakpoint) on those and it would still come in lower than the equivalent class of car (another used car doesn't reduce the maintenance much and you have a lump payment). I would have the discussion with my wife to get rid of one of them every year, and every year we would come to the same conclusion--replace them when they die and not before. Now, some of this is dependent upon whether your car is your sole source of transportation and whether you can cope with your car breaking down (money, time, etc.). It was no big deal for me to lose a car and put it in the shop--someone else will have a different reliability calculation.

avs733 8y ago

>It's a true shame, as GM finally got the little details right on both how the engine was put together as well as the interior fit and finish on the 2017 model. Completely agree. I leased a first gen and am now leasing a second gen volt. I'm actually considering buying my current car at the end of the lease. As a bike commuter, it is my only vehicle, which is why I went the hybrid rather than full electric route. The first gen I got rid of at the first opportunity. The car did it's job but the shifter physical design was moronic and the fit and finish was so bad that I actually cut myself on a piece of the interior plastic one day. The 2nd gen is 'just a car' a nice car actually. Excepting a maintenance screwup by a dealer I have had zero - zero - maintenance issues with the second gen. Because I don't ever have to charge it, and don't drive it much, I can usually charge it for free (I'm an apartment dweller). I spend about 80% of the miles on electric. I think I've bought two tanks of gas in six months. Funny story...a friend of mine's mother was actually the lead systems engineer on gen one. I met her at a graduation party and we had about a 3 hr long engineering nerd out over the 1st gen. I asked about a billion 'why did you/why didn't you' questions and was amazed at how many good ideas were left on the table.

chrisseaton 8y ago
> the shifter physical design was moronic The gear shifter? I thought electric cars didn't have those? I thought they were push-pedal-and-go like a go-kart?
- azhenley 8y ago
  Drive, neutral, reverse, park.
- hnuser123456 8y ago
  You still shift it into park/drive/reverse. I've been in one but don't remember having a problem with it, besides the atrocious visibility.
- baobrain 8y ago
  I think they might mean the shifter to change from park/drive/reverse/neutral

cmrdporcupine 8y ago

Best car I've ever owned from a reliability and fun-to-drive perspective. A bit cramped, but it's my commuter car, so don't care. I drive 100+km a day and charge at both ends, and most weeks use no gas. But still have the flexibility to take very long road trips without the hassle of stopping at DC fast charge stations every couple hundred km. When this one dies someday, I'll probably buy another used one if I can find one in good condition. The 2019 model is the best, with 7kw charging, power seats, and a new head unit. Very sad to see it go.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
Completely agree. I bought a used Volt last year, and I love the car. Have all the benefits of an electric car, but I didn't need to make any electrical upgrades in my garage (on 110 volts/12 amps it charges in 10 hours), and I never need to worry about where to find a charger on long trips. I really think it's the perfect car for the vast majority of people with a 1-way commute of 20 miles or less.
usaphp 8y ago
> fun-to-drive perspective What do you consider by fun to drive?
- lgleason 8y ago
  I have a Gen 2. 0-30 in roughly 3 seconds. 0-60 in 7.5 to 8.0. Very zippy in traffic, instant acceleration and the handling is on par with some BMW's.

chaostheory 8y ago

I've had both the 1st gen and 2nd gen Volt. It is truly a great car that's versatile. You can use it on both a commute and road trip with no issues. This is a classic short sighted GM move. I hope that at the very least they somehow sell the Volt to another major manufacturer. I'm not transitioning to the Bolt.

rossdavidh 8y ago

Somehow, I am kind of reminded of GM's Saturn division. 1) make a concept 2) consumers like it 3) but GM can't make it cheaply enough, or sell it at a price that reflects it's cost 4) so they end the model and close the plant I have the impression that what is wrong with GM is not the Volt, or the old Saturn for that matter, but rather the people who run the company.

uvesten 8y ago
Correct, at least from my anecdata. Worked for GM in 2010 on drive-by-wire and safety tech for EV:s, but soon quit in disgust. Management had zero drive or vision to make EV’s a reality, and would rather just pump out more gas cars.
- TheTruth321 8y ago
  You're a dickface.
cwyers 8y ago
The story of Saturn is a lot more complicated than that, and it seems like corporate (and union) politics played a much bigger role than the profitability of the cars: https://www.newsweek.com/how-gm-crushed-saturn-77093 https://www.newsweek.com/how-gm-crushed-saturn-77093
- rossdavidh 8y ago
  Doubtless you are correct, but I just meant basically "GM mgmt seems not to like it when something different comes along". I think it's a gut-level aversion to having to learn to make a different kind of product, or make that product differently.
cobookman 8y ago
The volt was ~20-23k all in. I do think GM did a snafu by not advertising the fact you get State & Fed tax credits, and unlike tesla the price is negotiable.

js2 8y ago

Just chiming in as another happy gen2 Volt owner sad to see the car go.

Proven 8y ago

Well, thy likely ran out of some sort of subsidy or tax break and figured that on its own, it'd never make a dime.

gok 8y ago

PHEVs were such a misconceived idea. So many more parts to wear out for such little benefit.

tjohns 8y ago
For what it's worth, my Volt has been absolutely reliable. And I hear the same from other Volt owners too. Aside from oil changes and tires, the only real maintenance needed was to top off the battery coolant once. (And that was due to a known manufacturing defect in my batch - fixed under warranty, flawless since.)
ip26 8y ago
Think of phev as replacing two cars. Before you had to have one gas car and one electric, for long distance and local trips, respectively. Now with phev you can have only one car that's a bit more complex. That's the dream, anyway
- masonic 8y ago
  Think of phev as replacing two cars Or as an ICE towing an EV, or vice-versa. You're lugging around both motors at all times.
  - sharpneli 8y ago
    Bit more than that. It’s just a hybrid car (like prius) with all the benefits of that like regenerative braking, but with larger batteries. Not as large as full ev.
    - masonic 8y ago
      And in both cases, you're carrying the full weight of two motors at all times. It's sort of like a Tesla carrying a gasoline can and a generator just for range anxiety. (In fact, that combination would weigh less than an ICE motor and fuel tank.)
      - 8y ago

bit_logic 8y ago

This was really shortsighted. PHEV is currently the best technology. I think the push for full EV is premature for mass market. It works for niche cases like Tesla, but not something that can be truly mainstream. With current battery tech and infrastructure, EV is a 50 mile technology. It has nothing to do with battery tech itself, doesn't matter how light or dense the battery is. The limit is infrastructure. 50 miles is about what you can charge with a level 1 charger overnight. Within those 50 miles EV is amazing, quiet, clean, it's clearly superior technology. And 50 miles is enough for a lot of vehicle trips such as getting groceries, going to school, commute to work, etc. But imagine you have a 50 mile EV, how to extend the range to something everyone is used to, like 200-300 miles for road trips? There's two options, more batteries or an ICE engine. The problem with more batteries is charge time. It's not good enough right now. Even Tesla is 120kw, which is 30 minutes for 80%. And all other EV are far behind this and the charging network outside Superchargers is pathetic. Range anxiety was only part of the problem, slow charge time will be the bigger issue. It will never be as fast as filling a gas car because that gets into the megawatt range. However, CCS spec can go up to 350kw. This would be good enough, 80% in 10 minutes. Still not fast as a gas car (which is about 5 minutes to fill a tank), but 10 minutes is ok. Combine that with a 300 mile battery, and it can be a road trip car. There's basically no CCS chargers at 350kw and no cars that support that rate. EVs will get there eventually and replace everything (ICE, PHEV, etc.), but it's too early now. Also, there's a limit to worldwide production capacity for batteries. The amount of batteries in one Tesla could support 10 PHEV cars. PHEV is a bridge technology, but it's too early to abandon it. Now is the time when every car model should be changing to PHEV.

trumped 8y ago
> how to extend the range to something everyone is used to, like 200-300 miles for road trips? There's two options, more batteries or an ICE engine. quick-change batteries would work for now
- bit_logic 8y ago
  Tesla tried battery swap and abandoned it. If even early adopter Tesla customers won't accept this idea, it's very unlikely the mainstream will.

trumped 8y ago

hopefully this won't lead to another bailout

technobabble 8y ago

Something I don't understand, but why don't they take the Chevy Bolt chassis and turn it into a PHEV Crossover a la Kia Niro? They already have the platform developed, and crossovers seem to be all the rage.

Baeocystin 8y ago
I'm almost certain they will. The tech they used isn't going anywhere. It's simply that no one buys sedans. I expect to see a Volt-powertrain-derived crossover or SUV soon.
- walrus01 8y ago
  No one buys small sedans for the American market, sure, but cars the size of a Yaris or Corolla seem to be wildly popular in the rest of the world.
  - Baeocystin 8y ago
    If I'm reading this properly (and fair warning, there's a lot of data, I could easily be mistaken) it looks like sedans are dropping in popularity across the globe- but that 'mini-SUVs', crossovers, or whatever you call a small sedan-sized hatchback nowadays are gaining popularity. http://carsalesbase.com/global-car-sales-2017/ http://carsalesbase.com/global-car-sales-2017/ Aside from the sedan question per-se, it's interesting to me see tastes change so rapidly.

ProfessorLayton 8y ago

That’s too bad, the Volt’s powertrain made a lot of sense for those aren’t able to get an EV due to it being impractical (Many apartments). What’s interesting is that Honda’s hybrids have basically the same drivetrain as the now discontinued Volt. They too discontinued (edit: some) of their plugin hybrids, which is also too bad. Looks like the Prius plugin is gonna be the car to pick for a plug-in hybrid. I wish it looked much better, but judging by their success, Toyota seems to know what it’s doing with the Prius’ styling.

mrpippy 8y ago
The Honda Clarity is their current plug-in hybrid (unfortunately not available in the Accord any more)
- lgleason 8y ago
  and sadly not as good looking as the Volt.
timbit42 8y ago
Also, Subaru is coming out with a Crosstrek using the Prius Prime technology. It's not as fuel efficient but it's AWD and I personally find the Crosstrek stylish.

joeblow21 8y ago

Ugly POS.

evv 8y ago

Kind of a fucking shame. As individuals, we are generally quite powerless in the climate crisis. The world is being ruined by companies and governments that we generally cannot influence. The power we retain: how we spend our money. Electric vehicles offer perhaps the most significant opportunity for the average consumer to improve the carbon emission status-quo. Regardless of the ecological impact, I've quickly come to see ICE cars as quite gross. I don't want tail pipes, the smell of gasoline fumes, or the angry noises. My E-Golf is delightfully zippy and quiet. For the driving experience, I'd choose this car in a heartbeat over any old-fashioned-engine auto. That being said, it does suck to have an EV because of range anxiety, having to hunt for charging stations, and being forced to camp while the car charges. I really wish I had an PHEV to address these issues, but there are sadly few options on the market today. I can only drive an EV because I've installed a charger at home, but most people do not have the ability to do so. I'll have to get rid of my EV when I move, downgrading to mini-explosions in my car. ...which leads to my point: If Tesla was serious about transitioning the world to sustainable energy, they would build a full PHEV lineup, or offer generator options for their existing cars. You need to appeal to the vast majority of consumers who are not ready for full electric. But I suspect Tesla won't do this because they have too much pride.

lrem 8y ago
According to my neighbour it is no problem to drive a Tesla 2700km from Switzerland to Finland, through Germany, Czechia, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.
- usrusr 8y ago
  Just don't pat yourself on the back too hard for that. That route takes you through some of the most CO2-intensive electricity grids. A Tesla charged in Poland is a much dirtier car than a Tesla charged in California or Switzerland. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying that making that trip is a terrible thing to do. I do worse things myself, e.g. traveling by plane. We all have the option of instantly reducing or CO2 footprint to that of our bodies decomposing but none of us is willing to go that far.

throwaway29374 8y ago

almost certainly current US policies are making it more difficult for EV to compete. Kind of subtle point. Make sure we don't have to deal with dipshits in the future. Vote!

nimbius 8y ago

Disclosure: im an automotive engine mechanic by trade. The Volt was a political nightmare. trade rags beat this car night and day for being a fake. but honestly its a damn good car. it was never going to see tesla style torque or mileage but the people driving it werent the whole foods kind of crowd anyway. the hybrid electric was borne out of the need to create something that couldnt be patent-struck by toyota, whos hybrid synergy drive is basically the entire hybrid market outside of Komatsu/Caterpillar these days. electric motor final drives until the engine kicks in to drive the electric motors also allowed them to avoid the honda tax on motors in the transmission that assisted the drive inline. the engine drive was crucified by its owners for ever starting. in-town drivers would be well under the range of the vehicles batteries, yet routinely traded the car in or returned it when the engine kicked on. What they didnt understand is that this was done to prevent stale fuel or cycling problems in cold weather. The ECU was smart enough to maintain the engine even when you didnt need it. If you find one of these used and youre into hybrid (mostly) electric drives, id recommend it. it has a planted and firm drive, similar to a windstar minivan but without the body roll. The stereo is also surprisingly overpowered for something like this as it borrows heavily from Fords Shaker platform (harmon kardon.)

speedplane 8y ago
> The Volt was a political nightmare. trade rags beat this car night and day for being a fake. but honestly its a damn good car. So you're saying widely publicized biased opinions based on antiquated but longstanding social norms were able to prevent good engineering, measurably better than the status quo, from coming to market? Are you saying that marketing and media can often overcome solid facts? Welcome to humanity.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  When audi first introduced continuously variable transmissions they had to make them act like discrete transmissions because users complained it felt like the tranmission was slipping. arrggghghghg
  - 8y ago

zed88 8y ago

Being a leaf driver, this would have been a good deal for me only if they could make it about 20% cheaper. Sad to see it go.

chiefalchemist 8y ago

"Yet the Volt did serve a purpose. It led to advances in lithium-ion batteries similar to those that power smart phones and computers. But such advances ultimately led to the Volt's demise as GM and other manufacturers developed fully electric vehicles that can go 200 more miles per charge." A better headline would be: The Volt Dies but the Bolt Lives On.

peter303 8y ago

I call out BS one dollar a charge. At 12 cents a kwh in OK its almost $2 to charge 16 kwh of batteries. And I live in a state adjacent to OK withe the same nominal kwh charge. However when you include all the #$&*: fees (like cellphones) the true cost is 18 cents a kwh. At this rate $2 gasoline in in a compact car is the same cost per mile for electric per mile (6 cents). I suspect he is averaging the free charging at work which cuts the true cost in half.

cmrdporcupine 8y ago

I would conjecture that while GM is _saying_ publicly that they're going full-bore on pure EV they've done a 180 since the end of their federal tax credits and the election of Trump and in fact are doing their best to just focus on what makes them money at home, Equinoxs and Silverados, and make all that weird eco-stuff for markets abroad ... in China. Closing factories in the US and Canada and laying people off is a part of that. Shutting down the Volt is also part of that, as it's a through-and-through domestically produced machine out of Michigan. Trump style politics and climate denying in the 'conservative' movement is setting North America back. In 20 years when the dust settles the locus of production of the next generation of vehicles will be in Asia, and we'll be behind. I love my Volt, it's the best car I've owned. I used to be a big advocate of the GM EV program. The engineering is top notch. But the engineers at GM seem to have been undermined by their management. It's very sad.

cmrdporcupine 8y ago
Further to my point above, it's worth pointing out that AFAIK the Buick PHEV Velite, the Chinese version of the Volt, isn't scheduled for cancellation. It will be built and sold in China.

fraggle222 8y ago

Should have been new Brand. I feel like the Chevy logo and branding didn't help much with Volt sales. They could have done something similar to what Toyota did with Scion. Create a unique logo and branding. Create a high tech brand that isn't associated with "Chevy". Is that just me?

propogandist 8y ago
New branding comes with a lot of overhead. If you're spinning a new brand out of a known brand, you'll have to educate customers with large marketing investments. This will have to be massive for the car industry. Given the car's not very profitable already, they'd be running a huge loss for a long time.
jvandonsel 8y ago
Agreed. And what's worse is that GM recently announced that Cadillac would be their new flagship EV brand. As a Bolt owner I'm fine owning a Chevy, but I just can't see myself driving something with a Cadillac badge.
nradov 8y ago
The Scion brand was a total failure and Toyota closed it down. GM used to have about 10 different brands but that just led to customer confusion and was a waste of resources.

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago

I’m not surprised, they were hideously ugly. Is there a reason most electrics are God-awful, looks wise? I’d say it has to do with shape considerations brought about by the batteries, motor, or aerodynamics, but Teslas look great and better than other cars.

cmrdporcupine 8y ago

While GM is killing it here, they're pushing the Voltec drivetrain in China: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19843069/velite-nik-buick-unveils-velite-6-phev-and-ev-in-china/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a19843069/velite-nik-buick...

anovikov 8y ago

Why are people so against it? I mean, plug-in hybrids are a dead end, they made sense only when batteries were super expensive. With almost all producers being under $200/kwh and some under $130/kwh, with $100/kwh just around the corner, what's the point of a plug-in hybrid?

timbit42 8y ago
Zero fuel costs on short trips and unlimited range when you need it without needing to wait for recharges.
- anovikov 8y ago
  But expensive and can't be made cheap because it combines complexity and cost of ICE and EV. Was always meant to be just a temporary solution to kickstart li-ion battery mass production to drive down costs.
  - timbit42 8y ago
    Yes, but the 'temporary' phase hasn't ended yet.
    - anovikov 8y ago
      It did. Cost of ICE is adding ca. $7000 to a car's price tag. It buys 35-55 kwh of battery capacity in addition to 10-15 a plug-in hybrid requires. Getting to healthy 45-70 kwh which is typical for a full-on electric car. GM has Chevy Bolt which is a living proof to that.
erik_seaberg 8y ago
Hybrids (or battery swaps) make sense until apartments and employers have power outlets for every parking space.
- anovikov 8y ago
  Not really. For daily driving cycle, you will have enough of battery for charging just once per day, overnight, if you can't do it then plug-in hybrid is of no value to you compared to an ICE car (or a traditional non-plugin hybrid), simply because you don't plug in. For long journeys, you need fast chargers anyway, and you mostly have it on highways.

Causality1 8y ago

A shame. The Volt's been my dream car since I saw the concept vehicle in Popular Science when I was in high school but I was never able to afford one. The cheap daily commute of an electric car combined with the instant fill-up and range of a gas vehicle. Not to mention since the battery pack is much smaller than an all-electric it would be much cheaper to replace once it eventually wears out. Seems I'll never get one, now.

tpolm 8y ago

People are no longer buying EVs when there are no more $7500 tax breaks (they are expiring this year)? Who could have possibly predicted that :)

Scottn1 8y ago

I fit the concept of the Volt perfectly; Married, Mid 40's male, one kid (6yo), under 50 miles 5 of 7 days a week, wife drives SUV so we have that when needed. Spring of 2017 I was ready for new car and I so wanted to get a Volt as I've been eyeing it for a few years (especially the new revamped model) thinking I would be ahead of all our friends in going EV and saw myself at parties telling people how I haven't been to gas station in months, etc. I lurked Volt Forums, read all car review sites and was ready. Then the actual shopping started and reality set... I visited all Chevy dealers in a 30 mile radius of my house, about 4 of them. It quickly became very apparent how this car was just a thorn in GM's side and I got the feeling they did not want to sell this car if they could help it. First dealer I went to for a specific one they had I wanted. When I got there I was told it was at their spillover lot and they couldn't get it that late (7p). But they had one exactly like it just different color right outside I could test drive. The salesman finding the keys for it were a "challenge" and I waited 20 minutes for him to locate them. In the meantime while waiting he asked me if I would be interested in any other of their models, some they have "below wholesale" deals for that would be better than the Volt to own. After telling him no, we got the keys and went to the car outside. I get in to start it, drive it around and notice that we are on the combustion engine the WHOLE time. He didn't know what I was talking about as I explained what the dash was showing - that the main battery was dead and needed an over night charge. He comes back to look for a battery charger and I again tell him he doesn't understand as it isn't a starter type battery typically in cars that needed a charge. I frustratingly left. Second dealer would not go more than $1k lower from sticker on the one I wanted. Wouldn't budge. I showed him how far off he was to Truecar pricing, explained that these things aren't selling well and here I am for a deal I can feel good about. He then tried to suggest I would be better off in the used Volt market for the price I was trying to get, which wasn't out of realm to what others were getting deals at on Forums. I left. Other two dealers didn't even have that many Volts on hand but said they could order. Again we got to prices and I'd order one if right for me and they both told me same as above that this city this car is a premium and there are no discounts given, best they could do blah blah. Especially if they have to order one. I was able to test drive one fully charged at one of these dealers though. The test drive was with my son this time. Him with me realized just how compact this car was, and he wasn't getting smaller. My previous car was a 2007 Mazda3 and it felt roomier inside. With my seat all the way back for my desired driving position, we would not be able to fit a second kid back there. I'd have to scoot pretty far up for him to sit behind me. The quality of the interior actually impressed me and the tech is very cool, but this car even felt smaller than the new Cruze model they had in same showroom. The size of this car is what ultimately made it fail IMO as well as them just not wanting to sell/push for it compared to even the Cruze or Malibu. It seems like they were more interested in selling the Equinox, Malibu and pickup trucks as those dominated the lots. Buyers as a whole have started to want more room and larger vehicles as evident in the sales numbers past few years in USA, and compact cars were a dead man walking. This is what this car was. A Subcompact car with a 33k sticker price that a majority would take one look at and wonder who hell buys this when the Cruze is 20k. It takes a LOT of miles/gas to make up that difference. There is also the 7.5k tax credit that would, on paper, drop this car down in price, but still more than a fully loaded Cruze and in some cases I could get a bigger Malibu for not much more (this all at the time over a year ago). To get that tax credit means you have to owe the IRS that much in taxes, which we never come close to each year. You owe less that 7.5k, your tax credit is less! You owe nothing or get refunds each year (us) you get ZERO credit. I then started to look at used market and started to notice these things were asking prices of more than what new would cost with a full tax credit and there were also very few of them in my area to choose from that had low miles. Basically all ridiculously overpriced enough to where even expert negotiating would be hard pressed to get me a good deal. In the end, I just ended up realizing the Volt wasn't for me, no matter how much I wanted it. I'd be sacrificing space and my wife even asked how I could even think of getting such a small car as my last one was small enough. It was priced as premium from dealers who were oblivious to how poor it was selling it seemed and didn't want to move it regardless. I'd have to really change up our W4's so we could maybe even get the full tax credit. Plus with the poor dealership mentality of this car all in my area, I even questioned how well they'd handle warranty issues or repair when I eventually needed them. The Bolt was so new at the time so it wasn't an option/available in my area and any that were in next state over were MSRP and no budge. I'd be highly interested in the Bolt if I was doing it all over right now, but in the end I moved on from the Volt never to really think again about owning one. America has moved on from compact cars as well. I have one year left on a lease and next year i will look at the Kona and Bolt but also in a segment I thought i'd never want to drive - the compact SUV. CX-5 or Rav4 types. I want an EV bad but it is hard to justify from a economic standpoint still in 2019.