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Why Do Rich People Love Endurance Sports? (2017)

• b_tterc_p 8y ago
  The first half of the article was silly. Only people with disposable income participate in expensive sporting events. It didnt really differentiate for just running for yourself and running in pricey events, but it could easily have just pointed to having free time. The second half was also pretty silly. That endurance sports are escapism from a mundane reality with no sense of objectives. Sure... that’s fine. But that’s also how all other hobbies work. You do it because you find it engaging and meaningful to pursue. Extended theorizing about the joys of painful struggle seem unwarranted. Not mentioned: social signaling.
  • mieses 8y ago
    The first few sentences are silly. Biking and running are on opposite ends of the tinkering with gear spectrum.
    • tedmcory77 8y ago
      Depends on the distance run; having crewed an expedition in Death Valley amongst other places I think there's something to say for the complexity that long distance running can bring.
    • flukus 8y ago
      They don't have to be. Cheap department store ones should last a year or two for someone just riding on weekends, it's not a great long term investment but it's good for the cash strapped and many people will give up long before the bike does. It's only a ~2X price jump to something that will last 10 years (more with maintenance) and better suited to someone commuting every day or doing distance rides, way cheaper than a car or public transport. Sure you can spend thousands on a fancy carbon fiber machine and thousands more on accessories, but it's not a requirement. Even if you want to compete seriously, by the time it makes a noticeable difference manufacturers would be offering you bikes.
    • baddox 8y ago
      Cycling tends to have more expensive gear, but have you ever heard runners geek out about shoes, socks, chafing remedies, mobile hydration solutions, “gels,” etc.? Definitely not opposite ends of the spectrum.
      • dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        >but have you ever heard runners geek out about shoes, socks, chafing remedies, mobile hydration solutions, “gels,” etc. But pretty much all that is optional and the rate of performance return for investment is minuscule in running compared to biking. If you shop around you can get good enough running shoes for $50. After that you need shorts, underwear that won't chafe a couple shirts (and possibly a sports bra). For under $100 you can have everything you need to train for and complete a marathon.
        • baddox 8y ago
          Absolutely. You can get a bike for free as well. But not many people who are very interested in either sport do that.
• davidw 8y ago
  I've loved bike riding since before I had that much money. Also, as a data point, in Italy bike racing was traditionally a pretty blue-collar sport, and I think that goes for other European countries as well. Personally... I like to be outside and doing something active, and I love to explore and see new places. https://photos.app.goo.gl/KtG9qFJRXDBnW5XT7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/KtG9qFJRXDBnW5XT7
  • bhauer 8y ago
    Great photo. Are those mountains the Sisters in central Oregon?
    • davidw 8y ago
      Yep! It was really warm on Sunday here, so I went for a long ride with some nice views. https://photos.app.goo.gl/vLA4qkoJmbusazyx7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/vLA4qkoJmbusazyx7
      • jeddawson 8y ago
        Nice ride! We don't have Bend's views, but the gravel is good down here on the central coast of Ca. So cool to see other cyclists/athletes in the comments on HN. https://www.strava.com/activities/2108212513 https://www.strava.com/activities/2108212513
        • davidw 8y ago
          That's a nice amount of climbing! One of the few things I sort of dislike about this area is that it's not very 'rugged'; in the sense that while there's an incline towards the mountains, there aren't lots of smaller hills. My Sunday ride was comparatively flat: https://www.strava.com/activities/2108116263 https://www.strava.com/activities/2108116263
      • bhauer 8y ago
        Awesome. I am a big fan of that area. Looking forward to visiting it again soon!
• themodelplumber 8y ago
  > “By flooding the consciousness with gnawing unpleasantness, pain provides a temporary relief from the burdens of self-awareness,” write the researchers. “When leaving marks and wounds, pain helps consumers create the story of a fulfilled life. In a context of decreased physicality, [obstacle course races] play a major role in selling pain to the saturated selves of knowledge workers, who use pain as a way to simultaneously escape reflexivity and craft their life narrative.” Yikes, if generally true :-) I work on reflexivity a lot with coaching clients. However it takes a lot of craft to work around to it for some, and even then it can feel like selling something really dangerous. Modern culture seems to offer endless options for a breadth-first search for anything. In contrast, depth is seen as risky in a variety of ways, from social risk (never go deep in polite company!) to e.g. intellectual FOMO. We make it really easy to ignore the self, to ignore "my condition" in favor of pursuing what is "healthy" or "impressive" for "our condition."
  • jessaustin 8y ago
    What does "reflexivity" mean in this context?
    • themodelplumber 8y ago
      Reflexivity is a bit of an overburdened term in sociology, but in this case I think "depth of self-reflection" would be a reasonable stand-in definition. Essentially, the relatively shallow externality of "pain, suffering" becomes a sort of pornography of self-improvement. In other words, it has all of the outward signs of self-improvement activity with none of the critical inward-turning, truly reflective contextualization. In my own practice this is frequently seen in prioritization of e.g. income and careerism and socially-prioritized-labeled-experiences. The people who say, "I have circumnavigated the globe, I've climbed the tallest peak on every continent, I drank the mythical Peruvian tea, I am a triathlete, I was at the top of our sales floor so long that they did away with the award." When there's no real "me" and "who I am," in there, just a bunch of externalities that "all of us can honor and appreciate and sit in awe of," in a list.
• nostrebored 8y ago
  What an overly complicated analysis. Maybe it's just because white collar people are forced to sit at a desk all day,which is unhealthy and takes a very obvious toll on the appearance of your body -- so people try to counteract this by overcompensating on exercise outside of work.
  • _RPM 8y ago
    > Maybe it's just because white collar people are forced to sit at a desk all day,which is unhealthy and takes a very obvious toll on the appearance of your body You're joking right? Have you ever talked to or a seen a real labor worker?
    • perfmode 8y ago
      I think they’re calling attention to the sedentary lifestyle
      • nostrebored 8y ago
        Yes, exactly. Working a desk job is cushy in many ways, but long term sitting is terrible for you and it will be reflected in your muscle tone, posture, etc.
• dayvid 8y ago
  At least in America, endurance sports are terribly overpriced. I lived in Japan for two years and entered 6 half-marathons as an English teacher on small salary. Each race for $40-50 and came with a free t-shirt promoting the town the event took place in. Many people from the community (not just the wealthy) took part. When I returned to America, I was excited to join races in America. Every long distance race was $100+. I haven't raced in a single half-marathon since. I can't justify spending that much money to run in the street. It turns more into an ego/selfie-experience than a celebration of running.
  • americanjetset 8y ago
    My wife has signed up for 3 half-marathons in the last year and the maximum cost was $60 (and they all came with a t-shirt).
  • csnewb 8y ago
    The San Francisco Marathon (for 2019) costs $233 to register for the full marathon, and about $143 for the half. It's definitely overpriced here.
    • michaelt 8y ago
      Is picking one of the most famous marathons a representative sample of the entire industry? I mean, presumably for every New York Marathon and Boston Marathon, there are 100 less famous events that can't command such a high price?
      • wwv25 8y ago
        San Francisco marathon isn't generally regarded as an elite event, let alone "famous". Most metropolitan road races are around this price point. Especially pricier the closer you register to race-date. But to your point, there are many smaller races that are cheaper. But often these are less organized, fewer road closures, less exciting, fewer perks; you get what you pay for.
  • mtberatwork 8y ago
• Alex3917 8y ago
  IMHO endurance sports are objectively the best sports: - Lowest chance of short term injuries. - Mostly low impact (less true for running, but true for sports like rowing and nordic skiing.) - Best for improving cardiovascular health, which is the biggest cause of death - Best for losing weight - Most fair and least influenced by random chance - Perhaps the best at developing a person's character also, since hard work and training is more consistently rewarded than with other sports (although there is still a lot of randomness). - Least commercialized and corrupted by the NCAA, pro leagues, tv ratings, etc. Perhaps the people smart enough to choose the best sports are the ones who are also smart enough to get wealthy.
  • hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
    > I think most likely the people smart enough to choose the best sports are the ones who are also smart enough to get wealthy. Lol. Usually when people post something that is r/IAmVerySmart-worthy, they don't literally say how very smart they are in the post.
    • Alex3917 8y ago
      Many/most people who do sports that are likely to leave people with TBIs or as quadriplegics don't actually experience those outcomes. But how many people who actually do those sports at reasonably high levels go on to make substantial contributions to society in other areas? And no, I'm not counting people who played football at Yale in the 50s or whatever. Some of them have popular clothing lines, but as of yet we haven't seen a lot of wingsuit BASE jumpers winning fields medals or whatever.
      • adrianN 8y ago
        There are a lot fewer BASE jumpers than joggers, so you would expect a lot fewer fields medal winners among them.
  • arcticbull 8y ago
    The best/only way to lose weight is diet (and I don't mean "a diet" but changing what goes into your mouth). Exercise of any variety is marginally helpful at best in isolation. It's great for all sorts of other things, but losing weight, not so much. Even the American Heart Association [1] kind of beats around the bush saying "maximum benefits" start at 5 hours per week (spread out 1h per day 5 days per week) and they go out of their way not to use the words "lose weight" but rather "less weight gain." The adage about losing weight through "diet and exercise" is half lie. [2] Don't get me wrong, you should exercise anyways, but don't expect to lose weight. That's on your diet. [1] https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/fitness/fitness-basics/aha-recs-for-physical-activity-in-adults https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/fitness/fitness-basi... [2] https://www.vox.com/2018/1/3/16845438/exercise-weight-loss-myth-burn-calories https://www.vox.com/2018/1/3/16845438/exercise-weight-loss-m...
• Buldak 8y ago
  I run and bike, and I've wondered about this too. Running seems like it should be the most affordable sport, but in America, at least, runners tend to be affluent. Perhaps wealthy areas are more hospitable to running, but I don't think that explains much. I remember reading an article in the New Yorker about a retreat where people would go to participate in extended fasts. It struck me you need to come from abundance for the idea of recreational starvation to be appealing, and I think something similar could be said for sports like running, where punishment and self-denial are nearly an aim in themselves. Another article I'm reminded of is "How the Other Half Lifts"[1]. There the author muses on cultural differences between strength and endurance sports. He suggests that upper middle class Americans favor endurance sports as a way to demonstrate "moral character, self-control, and self-development, rather than physical dominance." (My impression is that weight lifting has enjoyed something of a renaissance in recent years, though.) [1]https://psmag.com/social-justice/half-lifts-workout-says-social-class-85221 https://psmag.com/social-justice/half-lifts-workout-says-soc...
  • Lramseyer 8y ago
    > upper middle class Americans favor endurance sports as a way to demonstrate "moral character, self-control, and self-development, rather than physical dominance." As an upper middle class runner, I can definitely agree with that statement. At times, I feel like my habits of running give me a little bit of an edge over my peers at some level.
    • dsajames 8y ago
      I disagree. I think the rich like endurance sports because they're safe. My father was a triathlete. He could push himself to his heart's content and never worry about taking a kick to the temple. Another HUGE factor is age. Rich people tend to be older. Older people can do endurance much easier than say, combat sports.
      • gaius 8y ago
        the rich like endurance sports because they're safe What a peculiar thing to say. You can get caught in a rip tide swimming in the sea, collapse from heat exhaustion while running, any number of things. never worry about taking a kick to the temple In MMA which I assume you are referencing the ref can stop the fight instantly and there’s always a fully equipped hospital a short drive away. It’s massively safer than an ultramarathon or a full triathlon and that’s even before you get to the self-navigating and self-supporting stuff.
• danschumann 8y ago
  I bet the type of people who like to engage in prolonged endurance activities of the physical nature also like prolonged endurance activities of the financial nature. Most people get rich over a long, hard period of time.
• justinator 8y ago
  I am going with, "because they're fun".
• flashman 8y ago
  This might be a good place to ask: does anyone remember that study showing which sports were enjoyed (as spectators or as players) by which income brackets? E.g. golf had fans with high average income, while basketball fans had a lower income, and the former had a much smaller gap between the 10th and 90th percentiles as well.
• arcticbull 8y ago
  The quote they include: "by flooding the consciousness with gnawing unpleasantness, pain provides a temporary relief from the burdens of self-awareness" -- between the pain and the endorphins, that's why I do it. Helps de-stress, unwind, keeps me feeling happier, and the pain keeps my mind off existential angst haha.
• hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  I'm curious if there is a similar divide between individual sports and team sports. Virtually all the endurance sports discussed in this article are individual sports (with the possible exception of obstacle course races, but even then you aren't actively, directly engaged against another team like you are in sports like basketball, soccer, football, baseball, etc.) My hypothesis is that getting an actual team (or teams) together to practice is something that is easier for people who are longer on time, shorter on money, while individual sports can be indulged by people with more money but where it is more difficult to synchronize schedules for team practice.
  • Buldak 8y ago
    Long hours are intrinsic to endurance sports, though. An avid cyclist or runner will easily spend ten hours or more training each week. By contrast, I doubt many people put that much into beer league softball or pick up basketball. (It's also not clear to me that rich people have less time than middle class or poor people.)
    • nradov 8y ago
      Rich people tend to travel a lot and have schedules which vary from week to week, which does make it hard to reliably show up for team practice. But they can do endurance sports on their own schedule.
    • hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
      Sorry, I realized my post was unclear/poorly worded. The primary issue is not just total time needed, but amount of time needed to synchronize schedules with other people. More affluent people tend to have much more of their daily time scheduled, while less affluent people tend to be more flexible with their time - they can afford to just "hang out".
  • boyband6666 8y ago
    I fully agree with you. I always take my running kit when travelling, and when a meeting finishes will tend to leave my bag, and go an do an hour in the local park in the light. Trying to arrange to meet one friend is hard enough, many? Near imposible. Even making it to running club once a week is <50% as it requires negotiating with wife work dealines, work travel, an so much more. Cycling is similar - I know doctors who are avid cyclists as it works so well. When they are on call they have to be available and can't go anywhere... perfect for the turbo trainer.
• americanjetset 8y ago
  >According to the New York Times, the total cost of running a marathon—arguably the least gear-intensive and costly of all endurance sports—can easily be north of $1,600. Wat. What marathons are they signing up for?
  • mattkrause 8y ago
    The big races are a few hundred dollars to enter. Figure about that again in qualifiers or other races during training. If you're traveling, you'll need gas money and possibly a hotel. Say $400-500 in entry fees. You'll probably also go through 3-4(?) pairs of running shoes, which are probably around $75-100 each, for a total of $300. You might want some extra work-out clothes. Most of these could be cheap, but you'll probably want something fairly fancy for the race day itself--running 26 miles in a heavy cotton shirt sounds miserable. A few hundred dollars doesn't seem crazy, depending on what you already own. You could economize here--or you could go crazy. You might want some kind of coaching, or possibly a gym membership to mix up your training (e.g., swim when hurt). This seems to depend on a lot on where you live, but $50/month doesn't seem nuts for NYC. Over a year, that's $600. That should put you in the ballpark.
    • mattkrause 8y ago
      Here's an article giving overviews for the cost: https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/much-actually-costs-prepare-marathon/ https://runningmagazine.ca/sections/runs-races/much-actually...
    • zimpenfish 8y ago
      > running 26 miles in a heavy cotton shirt sounds miserable Nah, it's fine. You wouldn't want to do it in heat or humidity, mind, but I've done it in London several times. > You'll probably also go through 3-4(?) pairs of running shoes Bloody hell, what are you running on? Acid-impregnanted sandpaper? A good pair of shoes will last you at least a year, if not two (or more).
      • notacoward 8y ago
• WalterBright 8y ago
  I was happy to discover that after a while (a year or so) running improved my thinking. I have my best ideas when running, and do most of my programming that way. I return to my desk and type it in. I've lifted weights for years, and it does not have this effect. Running, to me, is not "lost time". It's very productive time.
  • tjr225 8y ago
    It is "meditational" for me as well. Running is my favorite place to think and to relax, but I think this is more due to independence and solitude. If I want to spend an hour running six miles, nobody would deny me that.
  • lm28469 8y ago
    Bouldering has that effect on me. Give it a try if there is a gym close to you
  • mruts 8y ago
    If you look at the research, aerobic exercise seems to have positive effects on cognition, while lifting weights has almost none.
  • killjoywashere 8y ago
    I've done some tris, but mainly prefer to just do the elements, usually 1-2 at a time. But I also surf, which takes time and money (at least enough to live near the coast) and that's not ergically expensive. But there is a "blue sky" effect. Some of the biggest, most important thoughts I've had are alone in the cold dawn waters waiting for a wave. Others have been while chatting with a trusted confidante on the bike or the trail (no one talks while swimming, that I know of...).
• ssm008 8y ago
  This all sounds like confabulation. This is pure costly signaling with reasons invented afterwards.
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• pjc50 8y ago
  My first thought on reading the title, and not dispelled by reading the article, was "poverty is an endurance sport you're not allowed to quit". There are extreme examples like https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/07/need-to-sign-on-youll-have-to-walk-24-miles-to-jobcentre https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jan/07/need-to-sign... , but of course we've all heard of the conditions in Amazon warehouses. Less extreme examples which are "just working class / not rich" are all the retail jobs which involve standing most of the day, shelf-stacking, anything in hospitality, anything in construction, and so on.
  • krupan 8y ago
    I worked construction one summer during college and my running habit died very quickly after starting that job. Getting paid to work out isn't too bad of a deal, but it is nice to be able to make a choice on the matter.
• ken 8y ago
  > "our sports are not cheap: According to the New York Times, the total cost of running a marathon—arguably the least gear-intensive and costly of all endurance sports—can easily be north of $1,600" I've run a few marathons, and I think that's nuts. It's only expensive if you want it to be. You don't need $580 worth of new clothes, $235 in intermediate races, a $130 gym membership, $210 worth of massages, $95 in transportation/lodging (if you run a local one), and $165 in celebration food (!!). Wear clothes you already have (if you're at all athletic to begin with), get a training book from the library, and spend $100 for an entry fee and $100 for a good new pair of shoes or two. There, I just saved you $1500 off your next marathon.
  • dependsontheq 8y ago
    I think celebration food translates as a bottle of champagne... which makes it even more ridiculous.
  • boyband6666 8y ago
    I'm doing Boston this year, it's a flight from the UK. In total It'll be $2000. ... my race to qualify was £40 entry, petrol (£25?) and £3 parking (I only put 4 hours on the meter from when I arrived to give myself even more incentive). So as is so often the case, a range in an article is uninformative - it tells us nothing about the normal experience and leaves us all extrapolating from our own experiences!
• ken 8y ago
  I'm surprised that the word "injury" doesn't appear once in this article. Many people I know who do physical work avoid forms of entertainment which could put their livelihood at risk. When you sit at a desk all day, you don't really worry about breaking your leg. Worst case, you have to wear a cast for a while, while still going to work and earning a salary.
  • adimitrov 8y ago
    > Worst case, you have to wear a cast for a while, while still going to work and earning a salary. It took me a while to parse that… then it struck me: right, you don't naturally get paid leave of absence for illness or injury in the US. In Germany, the minimum by law is 6 weeks at 100% wage, and another 76 weeks at 70% wage (there are some special cases and whatnot, but they don't apply to poorer households.) Additionally, the first 6 weeks may be prolonged by your contract if you're working a job (usually industrial labour, e.g. car manufacturing) where the union has negotiated better terms. It's interesting to think about the situation in Europe: injuring yourself is not as much of an issue here, and few neigbourhoods are really that unsafe to walk or run in. Even if they are, public transport will quickly and reliably get you somewhere safe. Yet, I still think (I have no numbers) that running (and certainly cycling and swimming) is a sport for well-to-dos — definitely at least middle class. But the reverse isn't true: middle class folks don't necessarily do endurance sports. Tons of vocational workers (plumbers, electricians, woodworkers etc.) are comfortably middle class here, but they don't do endurance sports much. I think it has more to do with the physical labour aspect of your own job, and maybe also that of your colleagues. You may have an easy job, but if your peer group doesn't, endurance sports may still be frowned upon. Just a theory; I'd like to see comparative numbers between US and EU.
    • dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >It took me a while to parse that… then it struck me: right, you don't naturally get paid leave of absence for illness or injury in the US. In Germany, the minimum by law is 6 weeks at 100% wage, and another 76 weeks at 70% wage (there are some special cases and whatnot, but they don't apply to poorer households.) Additionally, the first 6 weeks may be prolonged by your contract if you're working a job (usually industrial labour, e.g. car manufacturing) where the union has negotiated better terms. Blue collar folk with money tend do have more dangerous hobbies than white collar workers. Motorsports, boxing/mma. When you crash a bike you're wearing a helmet. When someone fouls you in backetball you're not. Catastrophic injuries that leave you unable to do physical work while recovering are very rare in endurance sports until you get in to the more extreme end of the spectrum (e.g. a 5k that's basically an obstacle course in a mud bog) and even then they're somewhat rare. Why someone who works on their feet most of the time and regularly carries heavy things may not want to pound their knees into dust doing a couple marathons a year has nothing to do with healthcare. >You may have an easy job, but if your peer group doesn't, endurance sports may still be frowned upon. This seems to correlate with my unscientific observation but I don't think it's specifically "frowned upon".
• adrianmonk 8y ago
  Another possible explanation is that there's something about some people's personality that drives them to do both. Neither one is easy. Both require dedication and hard work. The willingness to tough it out and do what it takes can apply to both. Along the same lines, it might be a personality trait where the person is prone to excess in certain ways. The article says the aim of a high-income is to live comfortably, but I think you can live much more comfortably putting in less work and getting a moderate income. Higher-income is something that happens when you want to go beyond comfortable. Similarly, you can stay in shape without running a marathon. A marathon (or other endurance activity) appeals to people who are looking for more than just the practical benefits.
• have_faith 8y ago
  Endurance sports by definition require time, something that is not in abundance when you are poor and working long hours. You also may think that long distance running is simple and pure and has a low barrier to entry. But take a look at the money that has gone into the shoes, clothes, specialist accessories and bags, travelling to races, paying entry fees, and so on that a dedicated runner spends their money on. I also think that the more someone focuses on money the more they generally feel like they have something to prove. Endurance sports are a, relatively, accessible way of demonstrating excellence in something.
  • fredley 8y ago
    I agree with the time aspect, but not the money. Running has possibly one of the lowest barriers to entry, money-wise, of any sport. You need a pair of trainers, but unless you're running pretty seriously any comfortable pair will do. That's it. A good pair of running shoes costs $100, and it's all you need to compete at all but the highest levels. Compared to swimming, cycling, or literally any sport that requires equipment to play, the costs are tiny.
    • have_faith 8y ago
      Running absolutely has one of the lowest barriers of entry, as a general sport. But specifically talking about endurance sports (which I assumed mean't running marathons and ultras etc) it becomes much harder to keep costs to a minimum. I'm sure there are people that run ultras in their 100$ shoes that they purchased last year but most are going through a lot of shoes and technical clothing just while training.
      • tapland 8y ago
        And travelling to the few and far between ultras there are compared to shorter local races that most running enthusiasts without a lot of savings and with limited ability to take time off work settle on.
        • zimpenfish 8y ago
• zimpenfish 8y ago
  > According to the New York Times, the total cost of running a marathon—arguably the least gear-intensive and costly of all endurance sports—can easily be north of $1,600. I know people who run upwards of 50 marathons a year (some who are 100+) and they ain't paying out $1600+ for each one. Most of them wouldn't even count as "affluent", never mind "rich". A lot of them don't spend hours a week training, either (but then none of them are going to win many races since they're 4-6h types.)
  • michaelt 8y ago
    Yeah, the New York Times article at [1] lists the things that go into that number, including: $578 on extra clothes and shoes, $235 on entering other races as practice, a $130 gym membership, and $210 of sports massages. This wasn't someone trying to keep their costs to an absolute minimum. [1] https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/the-1600-marathon/ https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/the-1600-marathon/
• trevyn 8y ago
  My personal experience with rich people (including several billionaires) is that there is typically a lot of pressure for their time and attention, both externally and within their own brains. Certain activities, including physical exertion, driving, and flying, force conscious attention to the present moment, and easily produce a “flow state”. Of course, you can also produce that state with meditation, sex, and many other activities, but it typically requires more skill and intention. My interpretation is that endurance sports are a straightforward way to induce pleasurable states of being for an extended duration, and these pleasurable states of being are actually statistically rarer in many wealthy people.
• gadders 8y ago
  It's funny, but there does seem to be a class divide between endurance sports and strength sports. Dan Duane wrote an article about it in the Pacific Standard[1]: >>Sociologists, it turns out, have studied these covert athletic biases. Carl Stempel, for example, writing in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport, argues that upper middle class Americans avoid “excessive displays of strength,” viewing the bodybuilder look as vulgar overcompensation for wounded manhood. The so-called dominant classes, Stempel writes—especially those like my friends and myself, richer in fancy degrees than in actual dollars—tend to express dominance through strenuous aerobic sports that display moral character, self-control, and self-development, rather than physical dominance. By chasing pure strength, in other words, packing on all that muscle, I had violated the unspoken prejudices—and dearly held self-definitions—of my social group. Both can be good for you in different ways, but there seems to be this assumption that you can't be muscular and intelligent at the same time. Strength sports are blue collar, endurance sports are white collar. For me, I prefer strength sports. Beyond just not enjoying cardio, I find being strong much more useful in daily life. My wife has never asked me to run 5 miles, but I frequently get asked by friends and neighbours to move heavy objects. [1] https://psmag.com/social-justice/half-lifts-workout-says-social-class-85221 https://psmag.com/social-justice/half-lifts-workout-says-soc...
• imgabe 8y ago
  The title should be "Why are the people who love endurance sports rich?" There's no evidence presented that a majority or even a significant percentage of people who are rich love endurance sports, only that most of the people who love endurance sports are rich. Is there a name for this sort of statistical error? Because it's everywhere. Let's pretend there's 10,000,000 "rich people" and 100,000 "people who love endurance sports". Easily 100% of the people who love endurance sports could be rich while it's still an insignificant percentage of rich people as a whole. I'm going to guess that the majority of people who are competitive at any hobby are pretty well off, simply because people who are poor do not have the time or resources to practice enough to become competitive at leisure activities.
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  • puranjay 8y ago
    Endurance sports, by its very definition, implies the availability of time. You can't be an Ironman competitor if you don't have hours to train every day.
    • JamesAdir 8y ago
      This.In ancient times rich people were pale and that suggested they didn't have to work. Poor people had tan. It's the same now - If you've got time you can train and have photos of you running marathons in different places in the world each month.
    • sametmax 8y ago
      David Goggins and Scott Jurek were definitly not rich when then won their first important ultras. And according to their bio (didn't fact check it though), they trained AND had a job, which means either waking up very early, or going to bed very late. I'd rather think that if you can run a 100K, you have the mind to overcome amazingly hard situations, and to keep trying, again and again, being in the game for a long time. Which increases your odds of success, so bigger probability to get rich in the end.
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• jimhefferon 8y ago
  > masochistic events Enough for me.
• paulie_a 8y ago
  I've never understood the near and actual addiction people have to endurance sports. Most are not healthy, marathons make for a great Facebook or dating profile, while damaging your body. yesterday I was talking to a guy that is doing a 24 hour bike ride with limited ten minute stops, I kept my mouth shut but seriously wanted to ask if he thought that was in any way healthy. He was telling me about a 32 hour ride he did previously. There is no way that is great for long term health. I guess damaging your kidneys and ending up in a wheel chair because your knees are destroyed is worth it, because bragging rights. I'm not saying having some endurance in various physical activities is a bad thing, but there is a trend of people taking it to extreme levels for show. Besides the physical downsides over time there is probably a mental health component that should be addressed.
  • mruts 8y ago
    I mean, endogenous opiates, or any type of opiates, are pretty powerful. It’s naturally self-reinforcing.
  • RPLong 8y ago
    What are you talking about? Cardiovascular endurance is the only kind of physical fitness consistently correlated with longevity. Getting into endurance sports is a wise way to extend your lifespan.
  • nradov 8y ago
    Running with proper form doesn't damage your knees. That's a total myth. Any vigorous exercise will "damage" your muscles slightly but the recovery process is quick and leaves you stronger than before
    • paulie_a 8y ago
      Yes I'm sure routinely cycling for 24-32 hours in a row is great for long term health.
• chrisan 8y ago
  Hmm the salaries listed don't make me think "rich people". When I think of Rich People, the sports are Equestrian, Mountain Expeditions, Sailing.
  • lm28469 8y ago
    Well, there is "rich" and "rich". For Tech workers salaries are a lot for most people. I'm in my early 20s and make more than my dad ever made. After a quick google search I found these links, no idea of how serious they are though. I'm sure someone making 30k a year thinks people earning 50k / 75k / 126k (nbrs from the article) are "rich". https://www.truthdig.com/articles/more-than-half-of-u-s-wage-earners-make-under-30000-a-year-according-to-a-shocking-new-report/ https://www.truthdig.com/articles/more-than-half-of-u-s-wage... https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-22/middle-class-destroyed-50-all-american-workers-make-less-30533-year https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-22/middle-class-destr...
  • hellweaver666 8y ago
    Maybe more along the lines of "not poor" people then. "real" rich people definitely lean towards these kinds of sports.
• bmj 8y ago
  Having spent time among bike racers and triathletes, there is another factor the article doesn't mention: lots of toys. Serious cyclists love to spend money on equipment, and the market is often designed around forced obsolescence. While there are stories of cyclists doing great things on sub-standard equipment, the "marginal gains" that top-flight gear provide make it difficult for the cyclist with just average or below-average equipment to do well. I am, of course, talking about competition here--plenty of long distance cyclists (randonneurs) ride 1600km on "sub-standard" equipment. Just browse a gallery of the Paris-Brest-Paris brevet to see.
• hestefisk 8y ago
  Flip it: I like to think that endurance sports are popular with hard working white collar workers because it is a means of coping with stress and long work hours. I work in consulting and the majority of people I work with use swimming, running and cycling as a way of relaxing / managing stress / unwinding. Hence ‘enduranxe’.
  • purplethinking 8y ago
    Exercise is anything but relaxing (except for perhaps afterwards). More likely it's mostly a status indicator. People want to be "a person who runs marathons", or be a very fit person, because in their mind it gives status.
    • rusk 8y ago
      > Exercise is anything but relaxing I think you need to "relax" your definition of "relaxing"! For somebody who crunches numbers all day, it's very "relaxing" to go out and do something that stresses another part of your being. The overworked part gets to take the time off while the underworked part gets a run-out.
    • mdolon 8y ago
      Your counterpoint (“except for perhaps afterwards”) is a large part of why I, and I’m sure others, work out. Not only for the relaxation effect — a late evening workout or run does help me sleep better — but often as a way to calm my mind and increase focus throughout the day. It’s hardly because of status.
    • bo1024 8y ago
      > Exercise is anything but relaxing (except for perhaps afterwards). That's definitely not my experience, although of course "relaxing" is subjective and can differ person to person. I think research supports that endurance exercise is good for calming and similar mental health.
    • hestefisk 8y ago
      There is a ton of research showing that regular exercise, especially running, improves mental health, sleep and wellbeing; complementary to a healthy diet and meditation. As someone who has experienced depressive disorder, I can tell you that it works (alongside medication and others of course). I do marathons but it is not for the status. I don’t think many people do — it is a lot of pain to go through. It is about goal orientation, achievement and the immense mental satisfaction (high) from endorphins it yields for your emotional and mental state. I cannot emphasise this enough — it is so important for me to stay sane and well balanced in an otherwise busy life.
• macco 8y ago
  I would propose a different hypothesis: Rich people love endurance sports because it is easy to get better at them. Let me explain: If I am 30 made a big exit and now need a new hobby it is pretty easy to make steady progress in marathon running. I will probably not become a world-class marathon runner, but top 100 of a big event is in my reach. Still hard but possible. If start with basketball, soccer or track and field I will probably not be competitive on a local level. Every sport with difficult techniques will be very much harder to learn.
  • gameswithgo 8y ago
    endurance is also more trainable than short term power. So one will get more from being persistent for years at marathon running than they would at the 100 yard dash. Also, you lose endurance ability slower as you age than short term power. So you can still be pretty good at marathon in your 50s, while you would be useless at the 100 yard dash or hitting home runs.
    • mcv 8y ago
      > endurance is also more trainable than short term power Is that not something that varies per person? I've always been terrible at endurance but decent at short term power, and now that I'm training a bit, it seems I'm mostly getting more power, but not really more endurance. Not for horrible things like running, at least.
      • Green_man 8y ago
        How are you training? many weight training exercises (especially low rep high weight) and short cardio exercises won't give you better endurance, they'll get you faster and stronger.
        • mcv 8y ago
          I started crossfit a couple of months ago. It's a wide variety of weight, cardio and other exercises. One time the warming up started with a 3 km run, and that's just pointless to even try for me. I'm better with the exercise bikes, but anything that involves running or jumping will wreck me before I get anywhere.
• mac01021 8y ago
  I wonder how golf compares.
• RickJWagner 8y ago
  I'm a tech worker, and I consider my greatest sporting accomplishments to be 'endurance type' events. (I ran a marathon, have bowled a sanctioned 300 game.) My own theory is that it's because I'm not a great athlete. I can work at something a long time, though.
• bluedino 8y ago
  What about personality attributes that a marathon runner and successful person might have in common? Dedication, preserverance, the desire to conquer things and rack up a big 'accomplishment'.
• dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Selection bias. The first paragraph nails it. All the psychological stuff the article goes on to hypothesize about is ancillary. Selection bias is the main driver.
• chiefalchemist 8y ago
  Because they can. That is, such interests require disposable time (to train), as well as disposable income (to travel to events). Add in, eating better, access to healthcare (for an injury), and perhaps even a gym membership. Yup. Because they can.
• foxhop 8y ago
  I often wonder if this is why I toil away in the soil. Why am I making my life harder than nessasary. Yes the food I produce cannot be bought off the shelf, but is that enough of a reason to put myself through the trouble?
• formichunter 8y ago
  I vehemently disagree with this assessment on the pursuit of pain and the associated high cost. I can only speak as a runner, which I've been since high school cross country, but the "cost" is two pairs of shoes a year at about $70/pair. My running clothes, depending on weather, come to a couple hundred dollars per season and I've used the same clothes for 4 years now. As for the "pursuit of pain", I run to clear my head, get out and see nature, and organize all my problems or TODO's into a progress plan. I run to relieve stress, even though there are occasional injuries, I don't pursue them but it is a price/risk. I think the article centers too much on it's premise without looking very far into the data. To give some background: I run 14 mile runs. I've done a 50 mile ultra marathon. I benchpress over 330 pounds. I run twice a week and lift three days a week every week without fail. I make well over the what the article considers rich, too.
  • lispm 8y ago
    Sounds great! I think the article is talking about people who do participate in and train for competitions and races.
• davidroberts 8y ago
  The endurance sport of poor people is called survival.
• deaps 8y ago
  I'm going to be completely honest here - the story hits the nail on the head for me. I was a mechanic in my younger years. I was content. I was lower middle class, but I didn't care. Yeah, it was dirty, it was tiring, it was hard on the body, but it was rewarding. Once we had our first child, I refocused on a long-lost passion of mine and have been a network engineer for about seven years now...While I also love this job, and do find it rewarding, I got into cycling about six years ago. I've always realized that I upped the 'profitability' of my career by over four-fold - and I know that I did it for the sake of my son and my wife. But I never realized that cycling actually filled a gap that I left for myself. I'm completely fine with cycling filling that gap. My family lives a better life now, and I absolutely love cycling. The article definitely hit home with me - word after word, sentence after sentence, I can relate to the whole thing.
  • MarkLowenstein 8y ago
    I'm very interested in that gap you refer to. Was there something you were used to as a mechanic that you weren't getting in your new career?
    • deaps 8y ago
      I think in auto mechanics, I accomplished things each day. Many beginnings and many ends. There was the mental challenges, similar to what I face these days, but those things came to completion much more frequently. It was rewarding. Now my current job is absolutely rewarding as well. I’m actually recognized a lot for my troubleshooting ability, but normally a typical project from start to end could be four months - or more - if it includes a lot of documentation to pass off to an operations team. I definitely do more designing, documentation, and transitioning of those systems than I do troubleshooting, however these days. Keep in mind, I’m not complaining - just explaining. I love my job and am challenged. I think it just misses some of the more frequent gratifying completion of tasks (which cycling fills). Hope that explains a bit more.
• czbond 8y ago
  I believe you can intuit someones strengths, weaknesses, and personality by the hobbies they pursue. Endurance sports are often long, rather repetitive, and can be intentionally made painful - they attract types who feel they need to accomplish. However, in my experience, it is usually as a relief from career or work to free the mind. In my experience, from a 'startup perspective', they tend to be the high performing employees of a company. Also are drawn to B2B SaaS. I've also noticed people tend to get into endurance sports when either they need a relief from career, or feel like they have no control over advancing career. Action sports people (like myself) prefer constantly changing environments, controlled risk, and the rush to augment the intensity of life. People that pursue these seem to be controlling for a mundane day to day life, or pursue additional endorphin rushes to stack in life. edit: added piece about inability to control career in endurance.
• golemotron 8y ago
  It could just be low time preference. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_preference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_preference Running a marathon is a lot like investing, even in a career.
• gerbilly 8y ago
  I wonder how many people would run marathons if they had to do it in secret? See also: https://goo.gl/images/o1L8J7 https://goo.gl/images/o1L8J7
• noelwelsh 8y ago
  I joke that endurance events, particularly cycling, are the perfect sport for middle age when you have more money than time. It's relatively low skill and you're mostly competing against yourself---which both help when you don't have much time to train. No new movement patterns to learn and no worries about letting down team mates. But most importantly you can participate in the sport with just your credit card and mouse clicking finger. Putting in more hours will probably have more effect on your performance, but buying that sweet new gear is perhaps more achievable.
  • olalonde 8y ago
    This should be the top comment. Pretty much all endurance sports are individual sports and vice versa. They also don't require a lot of technique and are straightforward to learn. Picking up a team sport or sport with more technique involved (e.g. badminton, skateboarding, etc.) is definitely not as straightforward when you are middle aged.
• lowracle 8y ago
  It's crazy how sociologist and psychologist are trying to find a reason why we do something we were originally built to do.
• RPLong 8y ago
  This author began with a hypothesis, and then engaged in motivated reasoning in order to confirm it. All we need to do is look at who the best distance runners in the world are: Kenyans, Ethiopians, Moroccans -- these are not people with above-average annual incomes or large net worth. By deliberately excluding the entire continent of Africa from the scope of analysis, the author talks himself into a baseless and silly theory. Endurance sports have always been sports of the people. Buy a pair of shoes or swimming trunks, a cheap Walmart bicycle and join us.
  • Drew_ 8y ago
    None of the best runners in the world are poor.
    • gwern 8y ago
      Likely true, but I don't think that's what OP or anyone else is thinking of...
• toasterlovin 8y ago
  A lot of human behavior starts to make sense once you're familiar with the idea of costly signaling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle Competing in endurance sports, owning expensive cars, and being able to speak intelligently about art or literature are all signals about your personality, wealth, class, and/or intelligence which are hard to fake.
• habosa 8y ago
  The lead says that running requires "time and money". The former is true, the latter is bogus. Running is my main form of exercise. I think it costs me $100 a year or so (one pair of shoes). I run outside, on public streets into a public park. I don't bring along special energy bars or use a Garmin fitness tracker. I'm not saying this to try and sound superior in any way, just that running can be very enjoyable and inexpensive. You don't have to "train" for anything, you can just run. You can get faster, or not. It doesn't really matter, just sweat and don't get hurt. Oh and if you want to run a marathon, you don't have to pay anyone for the privelege. I wanted to run a half marathon without registering for one so as a joke I set up my own, if you want to register please pay me the $0 fee: havetheruns.com
  • chrisfosterelli 8y ago
    I see what you're saying, but you also have to acknowledge what the article is saying. You could also "cycle" by finding a used, broken $90 bike. You could do "obstacle courses" by setting up abandoned garbage in a field for $0. For all three of the sports, this is not representative of most of what the average invested long-distance athlete spends or how they interact with the sport. For example, if you run alot you're definitely going through more shoes than 1 pair a year to not risk injury, so increase that to $400-$500 / yr. Set aside $100-$500/yr for races. Don't forget $100-$200/night for the hotels, and a few hundred for travel and food. A good watch to help you improve your training is $400-$700. You don't want to chafe so get good running equipment and keep it up-to-date ($300/yr). When you become competitive, you might want to push yourself further with group training sessions or coaching ($50-500/mo). Your nutrition will be very important when you run far so account for $300-$1000/yr in extra groceries, nutrition items, sports drinks, gels, etc. Now with just these we're easily over $10K/yr total costs, for just running. I won't even dig into cycling. I totally agree running is low cost and low barrier to get into. But as you start investing more time in it, joining the local community, participating in races, making friends in the sport, and setting more aggressive goals, you find the costs do go up. Yes, this is obviously an extreme example, but so was yours. I hope you can see how the average somewhat-invested runner easily spends close to what the article quotes.
    • 8y ago
• boyband6666 8y ago
  There are a lot of reasons I like running, but the one that hasn't been entionet yet is that races have a defned beginning, end, and outcome. I work doing analysis, which is never truely independent of the last one. Projects go on for a long time, and at the end of a week you're never truely sure you've moved forward - just like in code you occasionally have to trash it and start again. Or your paper gets rejected - back to the drawing board. On top of that, so much of my work is so ephemeral - will anything really change as a result of the analyses I do? How much of a decision is driven by them? I love my work and take pride in it, but I'm also realistic that there are a lot of other factors in play. When I run however, I know what I have to do, and at the end, I've done it. Training session of 6x3 minutes? After 3 reps, I'm half way there. That certainty is gratifying, and not like the rest of my working life. After that we can talk about the health, the movement which feels good rather than sitting in a chair absolutely all the time, and so on.
• jniedrauer 8y ago
  I've always loved being outdoors and surviving by my own hands. But since I've become a programmer, I have some disposable income. I find now that I'm climbing higher and taking on more ambitious projects. Being able to afford good equipment makes a pretty big difference. Mountaineering might not be a typical endurance sport, but in this case, there is definitely a financial barrier to entry. I couldn't have done it before I became a programmer. But there's not a psychological component to that. I loved the outdoors when I was destitute too.
• C1sc0cat 8y ago
  Not quite sure that's true for cycling the latest TDF winner started at a cycle club in working class wales.
• bcx 8y ago
  Another proposed title: "Why you need to be rich and have a white collar job to have time for leisure activities" Subtext: _less than 1% of rich people are active triathletes_ Some of the people with free time and money spend it on endurance activities. Some of them spend it on watching TV. For tri-athetes: (back of envelope math, 120K a year is top 5% of income in US - source: http://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ http://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/) Population of US is around 325 Million. 5% is 16.25 Million. (Total membership in the USA Triathlon organization: 116K in 2015) https://www.teamusa.org/-/media/USA_Triathlon/PDF/About-Multisport/2015-Membership-Report_lowres.pdf?la=en&hash=1C1F62C80432F8DFA8769CF79D3B664C65C59CE9 https://www.teamusa.org/-/media/USA_Triathlon/PDF/About-Mult...) 116000/16250000 = ~0.7% Conclusion less than 1% of rich people love triathlons.
  • stcredzero 8y ago
    Rich people historically do things to distinguish themselves from people who are not rich. If you ever watch a historical movie, or go to a Scottish festival, you'll sometimes see women wearing these blouses with really long, open, flappy sleeves, where the opening is so big, you could literally fit a watermelon up the sleeve. The purpose? Just to show the owner could afford that much cloth. If a sport can be played by middle class people, rich people will either gravitate to their own subgroups in the sport, or take up a sport that middle class people can't afford. It's just people doing what people do with tribal markers.
• mtw 8y ago
  It might be anecdotal, but I run and bike because I've never been good in most popular team sports, such as basketball, soccer etc. On the other hand, running, biking or swimming do not require social skills, dexterity or other skills associated with the more popular spots. As long as you know how to run, it's just a matter of stubbornness/discipline. Plus running is a blessing for those who prefer peaceful activities. You get to run alone in the woods. Friends who are programmers or who have white-collar jobs are in similar cases (were good/great in school but were last in sports classes)
• cgag 8y ago
  they can stay frail looking while getting athlete status without a vanity or meathead penalty
• leecarraher 8y ago
  I've always measured rich people sports by the cost spectrum of equipment available. Football, usually provided by some team or organization or school, soccer, is shoes and a ball, maybe a goal, but not necessarily. Then there is tennis, or cycling, where you can spend about as much as you want to buy some perceivable edge over others. Running is an outlier, but the article does suggest the sheer time it take to train is a barrier for many.
• jedberg 8y ago
  > One hypothesis is that endurance sports offer something that most modern-day knowledge economy jobs do not: the chance to pursue a clear and measurable goal with a direct line back to the work they have put in. I can buy that. I love working in the yard, because when I'm done, I can see the fruits of my labor physically manifested in front of me. I can even see partial results when I'm 1/2 done.
• kazinator 8y ago
  Rich people live in nice neighborhoods that are great for running outside, not to mention safe. They are also globally mobile. Winter too harsh in one place for running outside? Hop on a jet, go to a sunny, warm place. In the words of Fran Lebowitz, the poor person "generally summers where he winters" or something like that [Social Studies, 1981]