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I love Blender, coming from other "industry" tools like 3ds max, Blender has all the features I want for amature 3d work. I think my favorite thing about Blend

I love Blender, coming from other "industry" tools like 3ds max, Blender has all the features I want for amature 3d work. I think my favorite thing about Blender (I still love it) is the objectively god awful user interface. It's a good learning opportunity to show what happens when a community designs a GUI (hint: never ever let it happen). Almost every single possible GUI design decision is wrong or backwards. I'm excited to try this new interface to see what terrible UI gems lie in wait for discovery. It's weird and exciting that Blender is so useful and feature filled and yet so poorly visually designed.

tambourine_man 8y ago
You could say the same of Gimp, to a lesser degree. It’s interesting that features can probably be coded by committee and volunteers (as both programs are featured packed) but UI seems to require a unified vision.
- Sharlin 8y ago
  To code features, you only need to understand technology. To create UIs, you need to understand people, which is much harder. To make matters worse, I suspect many Gimp or Blender devs don't eat their own dogfood, and insofar as they do, they're accustomed to the weird taste of said dogfood.
- Joeboy 8y ago
  I don't think either Gimp or Blender have bad UIs at this point. Historically though, I think they've had opposite problems. Gimp has tended to just do the minimum to make the UI just about work with no regard for efficient/pleasant workflow, whereas Blender has abandoned convention in pursuit of an efficient workflow for experienced users.
  - CharlesW 8y ago
    > I don't think either Gimp or Blender have bad UIs at this point. I'm reasonably fluent with modern tools (Photoshop, Sketch, Figma, etc.) and consider GIMP to be an incredible accomplishment. But as much as I'd like to use GIMP, I find it too painful to use even for simple tasks. I wish someone would start a "sister" app leveraging the GIMP codebase as much as possible, but with an entirely different user experience and name, starting with Apple Preview-level MVP functionality and building from there.
    - mikekchar 8y ago
      This is an understandable and common point of view -- mainly because most people come from the perspective that you do. However, I've gone the other way around. I used the GIMP for years and one time I tried to give a hand to the designers on our team that were using Photoshop. I couldn't figure it out. Eventually I had to move back to the GIMP (and I even finished the task faster than they did ;-) ). Granted, I'm not a professional designer and the things I do are well suited for the GIMP. I usually manipulate bitmaps that will ultimately be displayed on a computer screen. This is not to say that all of the tools and workflow in the GIMP is good (the text tool, for instance, is horrible as far as I can tell). I'm just saying that there is a considerable bias when you start with one complex tool and evaluate another similarly complex tool that has a different UX.
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Text, and shape drawing in The GIMP (why not call it Gnome "Imp") are particularly painful (I use Inkscape for those things). The GIMP sucks for discoverability IMO, but I too find it comfortable because I'm familiar with it; and have found other apps crazy hard to pick up (Photoshop some years ago; Corel Draw clicked fine for me though). I think graphics can be a bit of a grab-bag to some extent so logically connecting methods to put then in a menu hierarchy can be tricky.
        rnd0 8y ago
        >why not call it Gnome "Imp" Because it's not an imp. Because it's wholly unrelated to the Gnome project. In fact it predates GNOME by three or four years. It's the GNU Image Manipulation Program, though most people find that to be too much of a mouthful; hence "GIMP".
        pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Yes, sorry GNU, brain-fart. How is Gimp less of a mouthful than Imp; would it not be worth the change. I've used it for about 20 years, have tried to recommend it to people and always feel embarrassed to do so: similar to if they called it "shit-head". Not so bad as if you were recommending someone try Brainfuck.
amelius 8y ago
I never used Blender, but I always thought that its interface was the "vi" of 3d design tools: not easy to learn yet very powerful. But perhaps I was wrong about that.
- dvtrn 8y ago
  IMO that description is absolutely perfect, and that's not a knock on blender, if anything I think that's probably a superlative of the application. When blender was in it's earliest forms, I was into 3D modeling as a hobby (a tv show called Eye Drops had me hooked) and recall quite well people who used blender and used it well being looked up with awe as if they were Moses coming down from the mountain, lol. I stuck around with it long enough and now I make fun little gifs https://66.media.tumblr.com/6257d4052e4212e770fd5eb819c7688c/tumblr_p64o74vMms1si6yn3o1_250.gif https://66.media.tumblr.com/6257d4052e4212e770fd5eb819c7688c...
  - dmix 8y ago
    > and recall quite well people who used blender and used it well being looked up with awe as if they were Moses coming down from the mountain, lol. It is a very powerful tool to be able to create anything you can imagine, visually with 3d. Especially back in the day it seemed like magic. And those 3d tools have quite a steep learning curve so it wasn't for nothing. Software is our modern day alchemy. You can conjure up anything you imagine with it. It should be revered!
    - dvtrn 8y ago
      Software is our modern day alchemy. Are you my systems design instructor? My systems design instructor said the exact same thing in college
      - dmix 8y ago
        Nope I thought myself. It's more persuasive revelation when you discovered the power of it by yourself than having someone teach it to you. I remember the moment it all started "clicking" and you feel like any software problem is now within your reach (which I give a ton of credit to SICP for teaching me the power of abstraction).
Joeboy 8y ago
I've been using Blender for a while now, and I actually miss its UI features in other apps now. I would agree that it's very unconventional and immediately baffling to new users, but not that it's "objectively god awful".
- scrollaway 8y ago
  I think the most direct analogy possible is vim. "objectively god awful" is one way to describe the learning curve, even if they're immensely useful and efficient. Then again you could say the same of keyboards in general…
  - Retra 8y ago
    Vim is pretty easy to learn, you just have to be willing to read tutorials and guides. Most complex subjects are learned that way, after all.
    - tinfoilboy 8y ago
      Vim isn't as obtuse as it's made out to be. You can learn Vim pretty easily, enough to match the usability of other editors, pretty quickly. Past that, you can learn the actual powerful commands, where it actually shines.
- Farradfahren 8y ago
  I retract what i said - this is a remarkable release. The UI is execptionally readable now. Im very sorry for my prejudices. Please try this.
jchw 8y ago
I dunno, it's not like the 3dsmax or Maya interfaces are really paragons of user interface design. If anything I think Maya is (was? haven't used in a long time) at least as weird and idiosyncratic as Blender. Meanwhile, even though Blender's UI design is weird, it does have some charm in how consistently weird it is.
ohlookabird 8y ago
It is not "objectively god awful". I for one really like Blender's user interface and I have used both 3ds max and Maya before. Blender makes it so easy to switch views and only show things that are important to you. Granted, I also use Vim heavily. For both I head to read parts of the manual though. In my eyes, Blender is a production grade tool that can do really complex workflows. For tools like this I believe it is completely reasonable to ask users to read about the tool and its design decisions rather than making everything "intuitive".
- knolan 8y ago
  I love the 2.7* UI. The Vim comparison is extremely apt.
- icelancer 8y ago
  Vim is a perfect example of an insanely terrible user interface. That we all use it because it is powerful and also a shibboleth into devops/sysops/developers minds doesn't make it a good idea. It's just very convenient and powerful while also being the height of nerd cred. Also the OP is right from an objective POV, the Blender UI is absolutely brutal. I use a lot of tools in this industry for my job but my job is not specifically 3d work, so I am not expected to have deep mastery of any of the tools nor does it even help me, really. This is where a decent UI that is intuitive and helpful is important, and Blender for my colleagues and myself is practically unusable out of the box. It is, however, a great piece of software, as you all say. I totally agree there. But good lord the UI is horrific.
  - nicoburns 8y ago
    Even with this new update?
  - Joeboy 8y ago
    You've just described a subjective POV.
  - tjoff 8y ago
    > and Blender for my colleagues and myself is practically unusable out of the box. You are confusing beginner friendly with user friendly. User friendly UIs are most often terrible for experts and expert UIs often have some learning curve. That said, I can not name a single application that has a better user interface than Blender. It is a masterpiece and I am in complete awe of whatever process and the people that created it.
esistgut 8y ago
They did a lot of UI work on 2.80: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/2.80/UI https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/2.80/U... Is your criticism aimed to these new changes?
- icelancer 8y ago
  His point is that he expects it to be worse or as bad because the same process that built Blender is the same process that upgraded the UI.
  - nybble41 8y ago
    The problem with that reasoning is that most of the UI aspects that people like to complain about (including right-click-select) were part of the original closed-source application, and thus not a product of the current community-oriented process.
- demarq 8y ago
  Also please note that on HN it's unfortunately popular to crap all over something. And to add to that remember a large part of your user base may not be hners and have completely different tastes and challenges and delights with the UI
gregosaur 8y ago
> Blender has all the features I want for amature 3d work. What about non amateur work - what's missing? Asking as a curious amateur.
- ZhuanXia 8y ago
  It's not just for amateurs. Much of the 3D work for Man in the High Castle is done in Blender, as Barnstorm VFX is a Blender shop. While not used widely, there are pros using it in big productions.
- BurningCycles 8y ago
  The recent Netflix animated movie 'Next Gen' was made in Blender. The production company is also contributing enhancements they made to Blender back to the main project.
- andygreenwell 8y ago
  Crane Currency uses Blender in the design of the micro-optical animations of their Motion and Surface security threads that are integrated into banknotes around the world. Check out a US $100 bill for an example of the results. In my previous role there, leveraging Blender's flexibility for integrating functionality via the Python API into various parts of the UI was great. I wish there was an open source CAD/CAE application that would copy a few of Blender's workflow ideas (integrated REPL, 3d view, node editor, text editor, high level language API). All Blender is missing is 64-bit vertex storage and 2D data plotting and it would also be the perfect dashboard bridge between the physical engineering/design and data science worlds in addition to its primary audience of 3D content creation, but it's hackable enough to work around those few limitations.
pasta 8y ago
While it has a learning curve I think the UI is one of the best I ever used. And I am not sure about your statement that everything is wrong and backwards. I think it's the result of thinking how to do things right so the user can be productive. Also: Ton has a very strong voice in the project. I don't think it's all undirected community work.
- Chazprime 8y ago
  Blender is really click-heavy compared with Maya, where a lot of the functionality is divided between mouse & keyboard shortcuts. Blender is not my first choice for modeling for just that reason, I feel infinitely faster in Maya no matter how long I’ve used Blender. That’s not to say that there aren’t great features in Blender’s UI, but I think it’s a good example of how not to design a user interface.
  - thedaemon 8y ago
    I'm sorry, but Blender is not click heavy. Keyboard shortcuts are how you use Blender. If you are clicking around in the UI you are not using it to its full potential. For me, to model quickly in Maya, I have to setup a custom marking menu. Maybe you could speak your specific issues and I can point you in the correct direction. You are always welcome in one of the Blender Discord servers if you need some instant help.
kyriakos 8y ago
You should try gimp. Same story.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
TylerE 8y ago
That seems like wrong revisionist history. Blender spent the first 7 years of it's life as closed-source commercial software.
vbuwivbiu 8y ago
totally disagree. Blender's UI is great
kobrad 8y ago
How did you get to this? After using 3ds max I can't believe that they actually charge money for it, it's amazing. And the worst part is the interface. I'm reading what you say again, like maybe I misread, but are you being serious?
- astrodust 8y ago
  This is typical, but especially in 3D. The interface you know is amazing. All others are "objectively terrible".
linuxblender 8y ago
I agree, and I wonder if a lack of hierarchy plays a part - the programmers may not be great at design, but designers would have to tell the programmers what to do. I don't know about others, but I prefer not to be told what to do!

tambourine_man 8y ago

You could say the same of Gimp, to a lesser degree. It’s interesting that features can probably be coded by committee and volunteers (as both programs are featured packed) but UI seems to require a unified vision.

Sharlin 8y ago
To code features, you only need to understand technology. To create UIs, you need to understand people, which is much harder. To make matters worse, I suspect many Gimp or Blender devs don't eat their own dogfood, and insofar as they do, they're accustomed to the weird taste of said dogfood.
Joeboy 8y ago
I don't think either Gimp or Blender have bad UIs at this point. Historically though, I think they've had opposite problems. Gimp has tended to just do the minimum to make the UI just about work with no regard for efficient/pleasant workflow, whereas Blender has abandoned convention in pursuit of an efficient workflow for experienced users.
- CharlesW 8y ago
  > I don't think either Gimp or Blender have bad UIs at this point. I'm reasonably fluent with modern tools (Photoshop, Sketch, Figma, etc.) and consider GIMP to be an incredible accomplishment. But as much as I'd like to use GIMP, I find it too painful to use even for simple tasks. I wish someone would start a "sister" app leveraging the GIMP codebase as much as possible, but with an entirely different user experience and name, starting with Apple Preview-level MVP functionality and building from there.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    This is an understandable and common point of view -- mainly because most people come from the perspective that you do. However, I've gone the other way around. I used the GIMP for years and one time I tried to give a hand to the designers on our team that were using Photoshop. I couldn't figure it out. Eventually I had to move back to the GIMP (and I even finished the task faster than they did ;-) ). Granted, I'm not a professional designer and the things I do are well suited for the GIMP. I usually manipulate bitmaps that will ultimately be displayed on a computer screen. This is not to say that all of the tools and workflow in the GIMP is good (the text tool, for instance, is horrible as far as I can tell). I'm just saying that there is a considerable bias when you start with one complex tool and evaluate another similarly complex tool that has a different UX.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Text, and shape drawing in The GIMP (why not call it Gnome "Imp") are particularly painful (I use Inkscape for those things). The GIMP sucks for discoverability IMO, but I too find it comfortable because I'm familiar with it; and have found other apps crazy hard to pick up (Photoshop some years ago; Corel Draw clicked fine for me though). I think graphics can be a bit of a grab-bag to some extent so logically connecting methods to put then in a menu hierarchy can be tricky.
      - rnd0 8y ago
        >why not call it Gnome "Imp" Because it's not an imp. Because it's wholly unrelated to the Gnome project. In fact it predates GNOME by three or four years. It's the GNU Image Manipulation Program, though most people find that to be too much of a mouthful; hence "GIMP".
        pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Yes, sorry GNU, brain-fart. How is Gimp less of a mouthful than Imp; would it not be worth the change. I've used it for about 20 years, have tried to recommend it to people and always feel embarrassed to do so: similar to if they called it "shit-head". Not so bad as if you were recommending someone try Brainfuck.

amelius 8y ago

I never used Blender, but I always thought that its interface was the "vi" of 3d design tools: not easy to learn yet very powerful. But perhaps I was wrong about that.

dvtrn 8y ago
IMO that description is absolutely perfect, and that's not a knock on blender, if anything I think that's probably a superlative of the application. When blender was in it's earliest forms, I was into 3D modeling as a hobby (a tv show called Eye Drops had me hooked) and recall quite well people who used blender and used it well being looked up with awe as if they were Moses coming down from the mountain, lol. I stuck around with it long enough and now I make fun little gifs https://66.media.tumblr.com/6257d4052e4212e770fd5eb819c7688c/tumblr_p64o74vMms1si6yn3o1_250.gif https://66.media.tumblr.com/6257d4052e4212e770fd5eb819c7688c...
- dmix 8y ago
  > and recall quite well people who used blender and used it well being looked up with awe as if they were Moses coming down from the mountain, lol. It is a very powerful tool to be able to create anything you can imagine, visually with 3d. Especially back in the day it seemed like magic. And those 3d tools have quite a steep learning curve so it wasn't for nothing. Software is our modern day alchemy. You can conjure up anything you imagine with it. It should be revered!
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    Software is our modern day alchemy. Are you my systems design instructor? My systems design instructor said the exact same thing in college
    - dmix 8y ago
      Nope I thought myself. It's more persuasive revelation when you discovered the power of it by yourself than having someone teach it to you. I remember the moment it all started "clicking" and you feel like any software problem is now within your reach (which I give a ton of credit to SICP for teaching me the power of abstraction).

Joeboy 8y ago

I've been using Blender for a while now, and I actually miss its UI features in other apps now. I would agree that it's very unconventional and immediately baffling to new users, but not that it's "objectively god awful".

scrollaway 8y ago
I think the most direct analogy possible is vim. "objectively god awful" is one way to describe the learning curve, even if they're immensely useful and efficient. Then again you could say the same of keyboards in general…
- Retra 8y ago
  Vim is pretty easy to learn, you just have to be willing to read tutorials and guides. Most complex subjects are learned that way, after all.
  - tinfoilboy 8y ago
    Vim isn't as obtuse as it's made out to be. You can learn Vim pretty easily, enough to match the usability of other editors, pretty quickly. Past that, you can learn the actual powerful commands, where it actually shines.
Farradfahren 8y ago
I retract what i said - this is a remarkable release. The UI is execptionally readable now. Im very sorry for my prejudices. Please try this.

jchw 8y ago

I dunno, it's not like the 3dsmax or Maya interfaces are really paragons of user interface design. If anything I think Maya is (was? haven't used in a long time) at least as weird and idiosyncratic as Blender. Meanwhile, even though Blender's UI design is weird, it does have some charm in how consistently weird it is.

ohlookabird 8y ago

It is not "objectively god awful". I for one really like Blender's user interface and I have used both 3ds max and Maya before. Blender makes it so easy to switch views and only show things that are important to you. Granted, I also use Vim heavily. For both I head to read parts of the manual though. In my eyes, Blender is a production grade tool that can do really complex workflows. For tools like this I believe it is completely reasonable to ask users to read about the tool and its design decisions rather than making everything "intuitive".

knolan 8y ago
I love the 2.7* UI. The Vim comparison is extremely apt.
icelancer 8y ago
Vim is a perfect example of an insanely terrible user interface. That we all use it because it is powerful and also a shibboleth into devops/sysops/developers minds doesn't make it a good idea. It's just very convenient and powerful while also being the height of nerd cred. Also the OP is right from an objective POV, the Blender UI is absolutely brutal. I use a lot of tools in this industry for my job but my job is not specifically 3d work, so I am not expected to have deep mastery of any of the tools nor does it even help me, really. This is where a decent UI that is intuitive and helpful is important, and Blender for my colleagues and myself is practically unusable out of the box. It is, however, a great piece of software, as you all say. I totally agree there. But good lord the UI is horrific.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  Even with this new update?
- Joeboy 8y ago
  You've just described a subjective POV.
- tjoff 8y ago
  > and Blender for my colleagues and myself is practically unusable out of the box. You are confusing beginner friendly with user friendly. User friendly UIs are most often terrible for experts and expert UIs often have some learning curve. That said, I can not name a single application that has a better user interface than Blender. It is a masterpiece and I am in complete awe of whatever process and the people that created it.

esistgut 8y ago

They did a lot of UI work on 2.80: https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/2.80/UI https://wiki.blender.org/wiki/Reference/Release_Notes/2.80/U... Is your criticism aimed to these new changes?

icelancer 8y ago
His point is that he expects it to be worse or as bad because the same process that built Blender is the same process that upgraded the UI.
- nybble41 8y ago
  The problem with that reasoning is that most of the UI aspects that people like to complain about (including right-click-select) were part of the original closed-source application, and thus not a product of the current community-oriented process.
demarq 8y ago
Also please note that on HN it's unfortunately popular to crap all over something. And to add to that remember a large part of your user base may not be hners and have completely different tastes and challenges and delights with the UI

gregosaur 8y ago

> Blender has all the features I want for amature 3d work. What about non amateur work - what's missing? Asking as a curious amateur.

ZhuanXia 8y ago
It's not just for amateurs. Much of the 3D work for Man in the High Castle is done in Blender, as Barnstorm VFX is a Blender shop. While not used widely, there are pros using it in big productions.
BurningCycles 8y ago
The recent Netflix animated movie 'Next Gen' was made in Blender. The production company is also contributing enhancements they made to Blender back to the main project.
andygreenwell 8y ago
Crane Currency uses Blender in the design of the micro-optical animations of their Motion and Surface security threads that are integrated into banknotes around the world. Check out a US $100 bill for an example of the results. In my previous role there, leveraging Blender's flexibility for integrating functionality via the Python API into various parts of the UI was great. I wish there was an open source CAD/CAE application that would copy a few of Blender's workflow ideas (integrated REPL, 3d view, node editor, text editor, high level language API). All Blender is missing is 64-bit vertex storage and 2D data plotting and it would also be the perfect dashboard bridge between the physical engineering/design and data science worlds in addition to its primary audience of 3D content creation, but it's hackable enough to work around those few limitations.

pasta 8y ago

While it has a learning curve I think the UI is one of the best I ever used. And I am not sure about your statement that everything is wrong and backwards. I think it's the result of thinking how to do things right so the user can be productive. Also: Ton has a very strong voice in the project. I don't think it's all undirected community work.

Chazprime 8y ago
Blender is really click-heavy compared with Maya, where a lot of the functionality is divided between mouse & keyboard shortcuts. Blender is not my first choice for modeling for just that reason, I feel infinitely faster in Maya no matter how long I’ve used Blender. That’s not to say that there aren’t great features in Blender’s UI, but I think it’s a good example of how not to design a user interface.
- thedaemon 8y ago
  I'm sorry, but Blender is not click heavy. Keyboard shortcuts are how you use Blender. If you are clicking around in the UI you are not using it to its full potential. For me, to model quickly in Maya, I have to setup a custom marking menu. Maybe you could speak your specific issues and I can point you in the correct direction. You are always welcome in one of the Blender Discord servers if you need some instant help.

kyriakos 8y ago

You should try gimp. Same story.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

TylerE 8y ago

That seems like wrong revisionist history. Blender spent the first 7 years of it's life as closed-source commercial software.

vbuwivbiu 8y ago

totally disagree. Blender's UI is great

kobrad 8y ago

How did you get to this? After using 3ds max I can't believe that they actually charge money for it, it's amazing. And the worst part is the interface. I'm reading what you say again, like maybe I misread, but are you being serious?

astrodust 8y ago
This is typical, but especially in 3D. The interface you know is amazing. All others are "objectively terrible".

linuxblender 8y ago

I agree, and I wonder if a lack of hierarchy plays a part - the programmers may not be great at design, but designers would have to tell the programmers what to do. I don't know about others, but I prefer not to be told what to do!