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I would not look forward to being an American businessman abroad in China right now. I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totall

I would not look forward to being an American businessman abroad in China right now. I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws. That's been a pretty useful fiction for a long time, and in (some) of the developed world that's basically been how it's worked. But I really wonder how many shocks this system can take. I would bet money that an important US executive for some company is arrested in the two years while visiting China. EDIT: There's another comment here asking how it's possibly legal for the US to do this. Whether you believe it or not, it's useful to know that the philosophy much of our state department believes in is called Realpolitik (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik). It doesn't really matter what the law says or what treaties we've signed, the primary thing that matters for the US is what's pragmatic for it at the moment.

bilbo0s 8y ago
Unfortunately, this is a pretty safe bet. That's why I always recommend that if you are going to go to China to do business, you should go with the goal of making people over there extremely rich. This will give you some protection. But yeah, if this is the game that the nations are going to play, then you don't want to be the poor schmuck sitting in a Chinese prison for 10 years just so they can make a point. It's probably time to start considering business models that allow you to operate at a distance from China. (Same with the smaller Chinese operators I guess? I mean, if I'm being fair. They should probably start considering models that don't require them to be in North America.) If you're small, it's just a fact that this game is in danger of evolving beyond the capacity of your resources to play it. Bottom line, whether you're Chinese or American, no one wants to start spending years on years in foreign prisons because they wanted to go to a foreign country to work for a few years. It's just not worth the risk.
- wybiral 8y ago
  > But yeah, if this is the game that the nations are going to play, then you don't want to be the poor schmuck sitting in a Chinese prison for 10 years just so they can make a point. Facilitating deals with Iran to deliver US products in defiance of US sanctions seems like something the average schmuck hopefully isn't getting mixed up in. It's not quite the same as accidentally violating some random domestic business laws.
  - ptero 8y ago
    But on general grounds, why a Chinese company should comply with sanctions between US and Iran? And why a fourth country is arresting Chinese citizens violating US rules? I am sure most of us break UAE laws on being with members of opposite gender without a chaperone and even post pictures of class reunions, etc. But I'm not expecting to be arrested for this while visiting, say, Sweden.
    - wybiral 8y ago
      Somehow they got the US technology in order to sell it to Iran. I'm no legal expert, but there was probably an assumption during that transaction that they wouldn't be selling it to Iran, which they violated. (which is exactly why this is different than them simply doing business with Iran in the first place)
      - fungi 8y ago
        I believe that is what ZTE was pinged for. There were US chips in the equiptment sold to Iran.
        fspeech 8y ago
        No one at ZTE was criminally charged. Though the indictment could be sealed and we may not know until they travel to a country that complies with American arrest request.
      - briandear 8y ago
        > but there was probably an assumption during that transaction that they wouldn't be selling it to Iran, which they violated. It isn’t an assumption, it’s in the actual export laws.
    - williamscales 8y ago
      > But on general grounds, why a Chinese company should comply with sanctions between US and Iran? In general, they don't have to. Only to the extent they want to continue doing business with the US do they have to comply.
- yesforwhat 8y ago
  You are going to say all that without pointing out that the US and Canada are fighting espionage, and China will look for an innocent business person in response and that's just totally ok with everyone here?
  - crazy_monkey 8y ago
    Or, you know, China could get rid of one of the US's spies there too. It's not like we don't do espionage... We're probably the best at it given what Snowden showed us...
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
zxv 8y ago
In 2013, "U.S. businessman held hostage by his workers in China, he says": https://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/25/world/asia/china-us-businessman-hostage/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/25/world/asia/china-us-busin...
EPress1970 8y ago
China regularly arrests western business execs. They famously arrested Crown senior execs from Australia last year (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/business/crown-resorts-china-employees-charged.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/business/crown-resorts-ch...)
cwkoss 8y ago
Realpolitik seems like the ideology of fuck you money.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  The whole point of Realpolitik is that it isn't about ideology M(
MetalGuru 8y ago
Seriously. It's this fiction that makes me believe that, despite it's flaws, America (along with other democratic countries) is a beacon compared to the rest of the world. A country locking up a foreigner for breaking their laws is so different than a country locking up said foreigner out of retaliation, which is what I imagine China will end up doing.
- estsauver 8y ago
  Worth noting that the lines are a little bit blurred in America. I don't know if you grew up in the US/your nationality, but I've noticed a lot more things feel questionable to me about America since I've been an expat for a few years. This is one of the most interesting cases I've seen: https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-joseph-nacchio-and-the-nsa-2013-6?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-joseph-nacchio-...
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  The problem is this, you're always violating some law. Even in the US, there are over 20,000 laws and regulations at the federal level alone. In China, there are even more. Any small foreign operator in China naive enough to assert with 100% confidence that they are not in violation of any of those codes is being dangerously foolish. So here's the thing, I actually agree with you. What China will do, they will do out of retaliation. However, I can pretty much guarantee that whoever the patsy is, that person will be in violation of some obscure code that no one in their right mind would have been paying attention to. They will definitely be in violation of some law. And they will condemn him/her to whatever ungodly prison camp for however many years. So China will also be simply arresting someone for violating their laws. That's the issue. Now my point is that if you are American, and a small operator without the clout to prevent this sort of thing from happening to you, it's best to try to get out in front of the problem. I know that I really don't want to be one of the poor stooges sitting in a Chinese prison for a decade because these people are trying to make tit-for-tat points. I'm not talking politics or philosophy. I'm just saying that China is not like the US, and I'm advising people to be careful if they are small and plan to operate in what appears to be a dangerous legal environment that will likely be getting more treacherous with time.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
samirillian 8y ago
Maybe this petty fight between nation-states will finally do what financial legislation could not.
ancorevard 8y ago
"I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws." Why are you so sure that this CFO did not break US trade law with regards to Iran? Let's bring it to a trial, that would be the fair thing, and that's what is taking place.
- TallGuyShort 8y ago
  I mostly agree with you, but this isn't exactly a case where the CFO can expect to be tried by a jury of their peers. Enforcing international law (or laws with international scope) in a single country that isn't one's own is a little problematic.
  - bdhess 8y ago
    “Jury of [your] peers” is not a phrase that has legal significance in the US. The sixth amendment requires “an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed“.[0] The indicting US Attorney will be have to show that some element of an alleged crime took place within the United States. [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment
- rdiddly 8y ago
  Since when are Chinese citizens governed by US laws though? Did I miss something there? There's a jurisdictional issue.
  - swish_bob 8y ago
    When exporting a product from the US, you are bound by the export laws of the US, if you then violate those laws (by shipping that product to Iran, say), then you can expect to be prosecuted by the US. If you then enter a country that has an extradition treaty with the US, you may find yourself on an unexpected plane ride to the US ...
    - rdiddly 8y ago
spawordss 8y ago
Do you head that sound? That’s the sound of every American CFO packing up and leaving China. But seriously, China is already preventing foreigners from leaving the country. https://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/china-steps-up-and-widens-use-of-exit-bans-on-foreigners-20181129-h18jkh https://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/china-steps-up-and-widen...
sonnyblarney 8y ago
"It doesn't really matter what the law says " Though there's a lot of realpolitik, it actually does matter what the laws say as well.
codedokode 8y ago
I think that other countries should improve their cooperation and arrest Western citizens breaking their laws. So that Western citizens and companies that break Chinese, Russian or Iranian laws and violate their trading sanctions, cannot evade a fair trial. It is annoying to read news like this. US is not a world's police. They should not be telling foreign citizens with whom they should or shouldn't trade.
CoolGuySteve 8y ago
Concerning realpolitik, this isn't even the first time it's been used on a telecom executive in the US. Joseph Nacchio, the CEO of Qwest, was jailed for insider trading in 2001 and wasn't allowed to use his defence in court that it was retaliation for refusing NSA data requests.
MichaelMoser123 8y ago
I am comparing the attention that two stories got on HN. One that China is locking up thousands of Uyghur people for indefinite periods [1] This one. Well, I guess its closer to home when American businessman may face the same fate of being locked up in a Chinese prison. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18351568 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18351568
baby 8y ago
Most people commenting here have never been to China. As a foreigner you enjoy a freedom greater than in the US.
- mac01021 8y ago
  I have spent a total of a few months in China and have not perceived the phenomenon to which you allude.
  - baby 8y ago
    Were you in a large city like Beijing or Shanghai? This is odd. Foreigners act like monkeys there.
- jbay808 8y ago
  Having been a foreigner in both countries, I felt more oppressed in China than by the USA, although only somewhat.
  - baby 8y ago
    It was the contrary to me.
satori99 8y ago
China has been doing this for a long time already to Australian business people. Several Australian Mining and Casino executives and employees have been imprisoned for considerable time by China's opaque justice system. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-04/stern-hu-explainer-why-china-jailed-the-former-mining-executive/9936578 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-04/stern-hu-explainer-wh... https://www.smh.com.au/business/crown-says-detained-staff-in-china-have-now-been-charged-20170613-gwpuvp.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/crown-says-detained-staff-in...
- suyuan1203 8y ago
  This is not a fair comparison.The Australian citizen was working in the company's ShangHai office and broke Chinese law.
  - Throwaway888899 8y ago
    You know that just because you commit a crime in another country doesn't mean you aren't culpable to victim county.
  - satori99 8y ago
    We will never know if that is actually what occurred as all of these cases were prosecuted behind closed doors. No Australian embassy officials were permitted to assist or even observe court proceedings. Needless to say, this is not the way a country with a fair justice system behaves.
sho 8y ago
> the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws For those who follow China closely, this delusion doesn't really exist. Check out this article from 2010: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2010/05/how_not_to_get_kidnapped_in_ch.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2010/05/how_not_to_get_kidnappe... https://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/06/how-not-to-get-kidnapped-in-china-part-3-resolve-your-debt-problems-before-you-go.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/06/how-not-to-get-kidnappe... A simple search on that (excellent) blog will give you many, many more examples. Those articles are years old; it's only getting worse.

bilbo0s 8y ago

Unfortunately, this is a pretty safe bet. That's why I always recommend that if you are going to go to China to do business, you should go with the goal of making people over there extremely rich. This will give you some protection. But yeah, if this is the game that the nations are going to play, then you don't want to be the poor schmuck sitting in a Chinese prison for 10 years just so they can make a point. It's probably time to start considering business models that allow you to operate at a distance from China. (Same with the smaller Chinese operators I guess? I mean, if I'm being fair. They should probably start considering models that don't require them to be in North America.) If you're small, it's just a fact that this game is in danger of evolving beyond the capacity of your resources to play it. Bottom line, whether you're Chinese or American, no one wants to start spending years on years in foreign prisons because they wanted to go to a foreign country to work for a few years. It's just not worth the risk.

wybiral 8y ago
> But yeah, if this is the game that the nations are going to play, then you don't want to be the poor schmuck sitting in a Chinese prison for 10 years just so they can make a point. Facilitating deals with Iran to deliver US products in defiance of US sanctions seems like something the average schmuck hopefully isn't getting mixed up in. It's not quite the same as accidentally violating some random domestic business laws.
- ptero 8y ago
  But on general grounds, why a Chinese company should comply with sanctions between US and Iran? And why a fourth country is arresting Chinese citizens violating US rules? I am sure most of us break UAE laws on being with members of opposite gender without a chaperone and even post pictures of class reunions, etc. But I'm not expecting to be arrested for this while visiting, say, Sweden.
  - wybiral 8y ago
    Somehow they got the US technology in order to sell it to Iran. I'm no legal expert, but there was probably an assumption during that transaction that they wouldn't be selling it to Iran, which they violated. (which is exactly why this is different than them simply doing business with Iran in the first place)
    - fungi 8y ago
      I believe that is what ZTE was pinged for. There were US chips in the equiptment sold to Iran.
      - fspeech 8y ago
        No one at ZTE was criminally charged. Though the indictment could be sealed and we may not know until they travel to a country that complies with American arrest request.
    - briandear 8y ago
      > but there was probably an assumption during that transaction that they wouldn't be selling it to Iran, which they violated. It isn’t an assumption, it’s in the actual export laws.
  - williamscales 8y ago
    > But on general grounds, why a Chinese company should comply with sanctions between US and Iran? In general, they don't have to. Only to the extent they want to continue doing business with the US do they have to comply.
yesforwhat 8y ago
You are going to say all that without pointing out that the US and Canada are fighting espionage, and China will look for an innocent business person in response and that's just totally ok with everyone here?
- crazy_monkey 8y ago
  Or, you know, China could get rid of one of the US's spies there too. It's not like we don't do espionage... We're probably the best at it given what Snowden showed us...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

zxv 8y ago

In 2013, "U.S. businessman held hostage by his workers in China, he says": https://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/25/world/asia/china-us-businessman-hostage/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/25/world/asia/china-us-busin...

EPress1970 8y ago

China regularly arrests western business execs. They famously arrested Crown senior execs from Australia last year (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/business/crown-resorts-china-employees-charged.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/business/crown-resorts-ch...)

cwkoss 8y ago

Realpolitik seems like the ideology of fuck you money.

blattimwind 8y ago
The whole point of Realpolitik is that it isn't about ideology M(

MetalGuru 8y ago

Seriously. It's this fiction that makes me believe that, despite it's flaws, America (along with other democratic countries) is a beacon compared to the rest of the world. A country locking up a foreigner for breaking their laws is so different than a country locking up said foreigner out of retaliation, which is what I imagine China will end up doing.

estsauver 8y ago
Worth noting that the lines are a little bit blurred in America. I don't know if you grew up in the US/your nationality, but I've noticed a lot more things feel questionable to me about America since I've been an expat for a few years. This is one of the most interesting cases I've seen: https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-joseph-nacchio-and-the-nsa-2013-6?international=true&r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/the-story-of-joseph-nacchio-...
bilbo0s 8y ago
The problem is this, you're always violating some law. Even in the US, there are over 20,000 laws and regulations at the federal level alone. In China, there are even more. Any small foreign operator in China naive enough to assert with 100% confidence that they are not in violation of any of those codes is being dangerously foolish. So here's the thing, I actually agree with you. What China will do, they will do out of retaliation. However, I can pretty much guarantee that whoever the patsy is, that person will be in violation of some obscure code that no one in their right mind would have been paying attention to. They will definitely be in violation of some law. And they will condemn him/her to whatever ungodly prison camp for however many years. So China will also be simply arresting someone for violating their laws. That's the issue. Now my point is that if you are American, and a small operator without the clout to prevent this sort of thing from happening to you, it's best to try to get out in front of the problem. I know that I really don't want to be one of the poor stooges sitting in a Chinese prison for a decade because these people are trying to make tit-for-tat points. I'm not talking politics or philosophy. I'm just saying that China is not like the US, and I'm advising people to be careful if they are small and plan to operate in what appears to be a dangerous legal environment that will likely be getting more treacherous with time.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

samirillian 8y ago

Maybe this petty fight between nation-states will finally do what financial legislation could not.

ancorevard 8y ago

"I think we're all used to the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws." Why are you so sure that this CFO did not break US trade law with regards to Iran? Let's bring it to a trial, that would be the fair thing, and that's what is taking place.

TallGuyShort 8y ago
I mostly agree with you, but this isn't exactly a case where the CFO can expect to be tried by a jury of their peers. Enforcing international law (or laws with international scope) in a single country that isn't one's own is a little problematic.
- bdhess 8y ago
  “Jury of [your] peers” is not a phrase that has legal significance in the US. The sixth amendment requires “an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed“.[0] The indicting US Attorney will be have to show that some element of an alleged crime took place within the United States. [0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment
rdiddly 8y ago
Since when are Chinese citizens governed by US laws though? Did I miss something there? There's a jurisdictional issue.
- swish_bob 8y ago
  When exporting a product from the US, you are bound by the export laws of the US, if you then violate those laws (by shipping that product to Iran, say), then you can expect to be prosecuted by the US. If you then enter a country that has an extradition treaty with the US, you may find yourself on an unexpected plane ride to the US ...
  - rdiddly 8y ago

spawordss 8y ago

Do you head that sound? That’s the sound of every American CFO packing up and leaving China. But seriously, China is already preventing foreigners from leaving the country. https://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/china-steps-up-and-widens-use-of-exit-bans-on-foreigners-20181129-h18jkh https://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/china-steps-up-and-widen...

sonnyblarney 8y ago

"It doesn't really matter what the law says " Though there's a lot of realpolitik, it actually does matter what the laws say as well.

codedokode 8y ago

I think that other countries should improve their cooperation and arrest Western citizens breaking their laws. So that Western citizens and companies that break Chinese, Russian or Iranian laws and violate their trading sanctions, cannot evade a fair trial. It is annoying to read news like this. US is not a world's police. They should not be telling foreign citizens with whom they should or shouldn't trade.

CoolGuySteve 8y ago

Concerning realpolitik, this isn't even the first time it's been used on a telecom executive in the US. Joseph Nacchio, the CEO of Qwest, was jailed for insider trading in 2001 and wasn't allowed to use his defence in court that it was retaliation for refusing NSA data requests.

MichaelMoser123 8y ago

I am comparing the attention that two stories got on HN. One that China is locking up thousands of Uyghur people for indefinite periods [1] This one. Well, I guess its closer to home when American businessman may face the same fate of being locked up in a Chinese prison. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18351568 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18351568

baby 8y ago

Most people commenting here have never been to China. As a foreigner you enjoy a freedom greater than in the US.

mac01021 8y ago
I have spent a total of a few months in China and have not perceived the phenomenon to which you allude.
- baby 8y ago
  Were you in a large city like Beijing or Shanghai? This is odd. Foreigners act like monkeys there.
jbay808 8y ago
Having been a foreigner in both countries, I felt more oppressed in China than by the USA, although only somewhat.
- baby 8y ago
  It was the contrary to me.

satori99 8y ago

China has been doing this for a long time already to Australian business people. Several Australian Mining and Casino executives and employees have been imprisoned for considerable time by China's opaque justice system. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-04/stern-hu-explainer-why-china-jailed-the-former-mining-executive/9936578 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-04/stern-hu-explainer-wh... https://www.smh.com.au/business/crown-says-detained-staff-in-china-have-now-been-charged-20170613-gwpuvp.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/crown-says-detained-staff-in...

suyuan1203 8y ago
This is not a fair comparison.The Australian citizen was working in the company's ShangHai office and broke Chinese law.
- Throwaway888899 8y ago
  You know that just because you commit a crime in another country doesn't mean you aren't culpable to victim county.
- satori99 8y ago
  We will never know if that is actually what occurred as all of these cases were prosecuted behind closed doors. No Australian embassy officials were permitted to assist or even observe court proceedings. Needless to say, this is not the way a country with a fair justice system behaves.

sho 8y ago

> the fiction that we live in a world that's totally governed by fairness and laws For those who follow China closely, this delusion doesn't really exist. Check out this article from 2010: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2010/05/how_not_to_get_kidnapped_in_ch.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2010/05/how_not_to_get_kidnappe... https://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/06/how-not-to-get-kidnapped-in-china-part-3-resolve-your-debt-problems-before-you-go.html https://www.chinalawblog.com/2012/06/how-not-to-get-kidnappe... A simple search on that (excellent) blog will give you many, many more examples. Those articles are years old; it's only getting worse.