24 ms·

Lime and Bird are growing rapidly

219 points by lingzb 8y ago

samfisher83 8y ago
I loved using Lime, but I can see cities banning it like SF. You aren't supposed to ride the scooter on side walks and many people do it. People just leave it in random places and I know some cities don't like this.
- criddell 8y ago
  SF allows scooters, but not Bird or Lime because of their conduct.
  - asdff 8y ago
    Ahh, yes. It was the companies who rode them on the sidewalks.
    - criddell 8y ago
      I believe it was more about dumping scooters all over the city before getting permits.
- whyenot 8y ago
  Someone somehow managed to abandon one on the roof (7th floor) of my work building. Getting the damn thing down to the ground floor and out of the building was not a lot of fun. Moving it locked up the wheels and triggered the alarm. It even announced through a speaker that it was "calling the police." With some help I was able to get it down, moved into a service elevator, and escorted out of the building. The stupid thing would not shut up. Someone must have come by and collected it because it was gone by the end of the day. Pain in the ass, and the company, in typical Silicon Valley fashion, didn't have any information on their website about how to contact a real person or to report an abandoned scooter. If this is going to be a regular thing, where I have to be an impromptu scooter wrangler, I want my cut :)
  - Cristian_knur 8y ago
    Bird is different. They have real people answering the phone or email all the time. Disclaimer: I work for Bird.
- the_clarence 8y ago
  So instead we get millions of cars. Nice alternative...
umvi 8y ago
Remind me again why they are allowed to litter all the public sidewalks and street corners with their scooters? Regulation hasn't caught up yet?
- marcell 8y ago
  Because people derive value from the service. It's faster than walking, more convenient than an Uber, and doesn't require a car. Let's leave the "get off my lawn" comments off HN.
  - sdinsn 8y ago
    It's not a "get off my lawn" comment. Regulations about these scooters don't exist in the large majority of places- meaning the default local regulations about illegal dumping apply. Whether people derive value from it or not is not important to local laws. These scooter companies are operating in a grey area; that's a fact. Please don't quickly dismiss discussion about this issue, especially in such an ignorant manner.
    - gibolt 8y ago
      Scooters occupy ~5% the space as a car. Dedicating 2-10% of the spots on each block/public lot to bikes/scooters should already be built in as a public service. If you've ever biked as a mode of transport, even in most US 'bike-friendly' cities, you'll know how few bike racks are available.
      - nullorundefined 8y ago
        Ebike startups are even making it required that the bike gets docked. So, it's not impossible.
    - lnanek2 8y ago
      > These scooter companies are operating in a grey area; that's a fact That's not true at all where I live. Santa Monica often bans them for not following rules, makes deals with other companies, etc.. Every app is forced to implement geofencing for not allowing riding on the beach walkways, for example. On popular roads like Abbot Kinney there are small fenced off corals where the government has replaced a car parking spot with a scooter and bicycle one. So yes, scooter companies do have specific laws they have to follow. It's actually a drawback since the city favors Jump over local companies like Bird, and Jump has a lot less availability.
powera 8y ago
Translation: we are entering a scooter bubble.
- whymsicalburito 8y ago
  How do we short it??
  - quickthrower2 8y ago
    Start a scrap metal business
- surge 8y ago
  Yep, my town temporarily banned them because of safety issues, I liked the dockless bikes better because they at least had some barrier to entry that anyone who wasn't versed in basic riding safety couldn't just pick one up since most bike riders know the basics. That said they are cool when used properly, but they're being regulated and towns are starting to charge taxes/fees to make sure they're not a nuisance and require them to leave them in low income areas.
kerng 8y ago
Will be interesting if Uber or Lyft will postpone IPO in favor or buying one of them. Cant imagine it's possible to acquire one of them and still IPO in near future - but who knows. Exciting to see scooters and bikes get nice adoption! Changing the form factor to be more like a mini car (with at least a seat) would be neat, scooters just dont feel that safe.
- whoisjuan 8y ago
  Uber has around 7 billion (last time I heard) and this year they will lose around 5 billion, maybe more. Uber is on track to run out of money in 2019, so a financial event is inmminent. I don't know if we will see an Uber 2019 IPO, but if it doesn't happen is more likely due to the current bear market and not so much because they are considering a large acquisition. If they acquire a scooter company I presume they will do it through a mix of debt and a heavy stock component. In fact it seems that they already raised another 2 billion through private placement bonds.
- lingzb 8y ago
  Yes, I think whether Uber or Lyft (esp. Uber) can pull off such big acquisitions before their IPOs is the big big question on how this market shakes out.
askaboutit 8y ago
Stand up scooters feel so unstable. Why not just add a seat and allow a seated scooter that’s foldable. The problem with last mile transport is that the laws in many countries need electric bikes to have peddles and peddle assistance. Just let people have a certain power and max speed and they will drop the car and replace it with a powered scooter. Aka, China.
- hocuspocus 8y ago
  *Pedal. Some EU countries have already announced that scooters will soon be treated similarly to e-bikes, i.e. max 250W and 25km/h for the ones that don't need registration and plates. While more expensive and less portable, a bike is a lot safer and more versatile.
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    I feel far less safe on a bicycle than I ever do on a Bird/Lime-style scooter. Main reason is I can go a lot slower, bicycles have to maintain a certain amount of inertia and that seriously affects riding habits. If I'm coming up on an intersection I can slow down a lot but if I'm riding a bike, I'm incentivized to blow through. With a scooter, I can go at a safe speed around pedestrians on sidewalks and stop abruptly if necessary with my feet. The inertia requirement makes it difficult to go sufficiently slow around pedestrians on a bike and I always feel like I'm an asshole no matter where I am if not a dedicated bike lane. I think only familiarity leads people to think that bikes are safer than scooters. Given a choice between an electric bicycle and an electric scooter, now that I've ridden both, give me the scooter any day.
    - ip26 8y ago
      Bikes handle a lot better at speed & tend to have better brakes. Of course, if your speed is low, that doesn't matter.
    - skksjsnaahs 8y ago
      I understand it sucks to stop at a stop light on an analog bike, but why on an ebike? You get help starting up again, like an escooter.
albertgoeswoof 8y ago
I have friends in London and commuter towns buying scooters for their own use- despite knowing that they can’t ride them legally. There are none for hire here. When are they arriving?
- easytiger 8y ago
  Given C. London pavements are incredibly narrow, inexorably busy and often uneven, people on these things are a nightmare. Even non electric ones are a nightmare.
- the_clarence 8y ago
  The streets are not good for scooters in London. Even biking is a nightmare there...
sleepinseattle 8y ago
Interestingly I just noticed Lime-branded Fiat cars in Seattle for the first time yesterday. Looks like they're taking on Car2Go and ReachNow. Looks like it launched a couple weeks ago: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bike-share-company-lime-launching-car-rental-service-in-seattle/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bik...
- lingzb 8y ago
  I really want to try this. I think easy car sharing could be huge and it'd be amazing to be rid of the hassle that is car ownership (monthly parking, insurance, maintenance, etc.)
smallgovt 8y ago
My guess is that Lime and Bird's latest investors don't actually believe in these insane valuations. Instead, they see these companies as a safe place to park their money due to the limited downside provided by liquid preference terms.
- nihonde 8y ago
  Curious: What kind of preference is normal at this stage?
  - smallgovt 8y ago
    Fenwick publishes a quarterly survey of market terms for VC rounds. Their Q3 2018 report suggests ~10% of rounds are being done with a liquid pref >1x, and those terms are almost always between 1-2x. Given that these stats are for series A-E rounds, I would expect the liquid pref in these mega rounds to be very close to 1x if not 1x exactly. Source: https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Silicon-Valley-Venture-Capital-Survey-Third-Quarter-2018.pdf https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Silicon-Valley-Vent...
- taylorswift_ 8y ago
  I discovered scooters recently and have rode them in three major cities during the past month. I have to say it is the most genius consumer tech product I've seen in a long time. I instantly felt a sense of "wow" after riding the first one (bird). The entire experience is so simple, so elegant (ui/ux), cheap, efficient, and most importantly FUN. I looked up bird and lime to discover they'd each received over 400M in funding and it makes perfect sense to me. This is a disruptive technology that's going to see major adoption in every city across the entire planet. You have to ride one to understand, especially in an urban, downtown, waterfront or metro type area. They're going to easily cut into bikeshare and short-trip rideshare services. Take a ride and you'll see, #scootlife! Also worth noting, none of the technology is itself "new", but rather bird & lime particularly have packaged existing technologies together to make a product with all the qualities mentioned above. Innovation is usually just a twist on something that's already out there.
whymsicalburito 8y ago
This article says these scooters make $16/day in revenue?! Where are they making that kind of money? The scooters in my city just sit in the same place for DAYS without moving... I don't buy those numbers at all...
- eclipxe 8y ago
  What city?
  - whymsicalburito 8y ago
    Santa Barbara and Goleta
    - lingzb 8y ago
      It's possible that utilization is lower in smaller cities.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Maybe you live in a low usage area, and scooters that just go back and forth in high usage areas generate far more than $16/day?
  - whymsicalburito 8y ago
    That's possible, but with a range of only 15 miles and they're most likely only getting charged at night, that's a max revenue of around $35/day for a scooter. I doubt there's enough scooters maxing out each day to offset the losers.
    - bsder 8y ago
      > That's possible, but with a range of only 15 miles and they're most likely only getting charged at night I suspect that statement isn't true. I see multiple drops a day on my street.
- 8y ago
Uehreka 8y ago
I live in Baltimore and these things have been awesome. Over the summer and early fall, I used them a lot for trips that were between 3-15 blocks. They were usually less than half the price of a Lyft, were fun to drive, don't directly use fossil fuels and were usually available (in one app or the other) within a block or two of my house. I used them to meet friends for brunch, to pick up my car from getting worked on, to go to bars near my house and to go vote in November. Now that it's gotten colder, I think my range for using them will contract to something like 2-8 blocks, but I don't think I'll cut off using them entirely. I don't notice them being "piled up" anywhere (except for at a street festival, but lots of people were picking them up too), and I don't think I've ever run into a situation where my path was actively blocked by one. Baltimore used to have a bike share, but I've heard it's being shut down and even when it was up they had a hard time keeping bikes in all the stalls.
- pfisch 8y ago
  "don't directly use fossil fuels" Looks like Maryland uses a significant amount of coal to power their grid, so is this even a good thing?
  - MBlume 8y ago
    It doesn't matter what's powering them, the power requirements are so much smaller than those for moving a 2-3 ton automobile that you still come out way ahead
  - lostcolony 8y ago
    Easier to replace the energy powering the grid than to, say, power a vehicle directly with non-fossil fuel sources. It may still be using fossil fuels due to what is powering the grid, but that can be changed out over time; when using a gasoline powered car, you can't, until you replace the car. It's why electric cars are viewed as being friendly; the grid they're plugged into may still be fossil fuels, but that can change at any time. A gasoline powered car won't change its reliance on fossil fuels until you replace it.
  - minitoar 8y ago
dvt 8y ago
I cannot stand the Limes and Birds around Santa Monica. I walk out of my apartment, and the streets are littered with them. It's annoying when walking, it's even more annoying when jogging, and riders are constantly riding them (without helmets) on sidewalks even though we have bike lanes. They're even a nuisance when driving. I'm hoping for some legislation that will ban them -- I might set up a grassroots campaign myself. It's mostly the tourists using them, anyway.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Is there a reason these don't count as just trash? If I leave my scooter lying on the side of the road, I would never assume that it would still be there if I came back to it.
- cwkoss 8y ago
  Set up a shop buying and selling "secondhand scooter parts" - don't ask too many questions and you could make a nice profit while incentivizing others to dismantle their inventory.
  - draw_down 8y ago
    Selling to whom?
  - madengr 8y ago
    I was thinking scrap value. Toss them in an industrial shredder, sans battery pack, then separate out the metals. Maybe a mobile shredder.
    - cwkoss 8y ago
      Yep, plus battery packs, wheels, and electronics would probably have some resale value once parted out, especially if you can provide larger lots.
    - blhack 8y ago
      Why not do the exact same thing with cars? Heck, why not just break into people's homes and rob them while you're at it!
dawhizkid 8y ago
It's strange that even though SF approved 2 scooter companies to operate that I feel like I rarely see anyone actually use vs what I saw when Bird/Lime were here.
- lucasmullens 8y ago
  Scoot removed a bunch of them due to theft. I believe they're trying to figure out a locking mechanism before ramping up again.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    To be fair, after seeing homeless people playing around with them and even peeing on them, im not getting close to any of them.
    - the_clarence 8y ago
      Good luck living in SF if you care about homeless people.
- dilap 8y ago
  SF didn't want to make BART feel bad by providing actual competent transit options, so we got the joke that is Skip/Scoot. Seriously, this city has convinced me democracy doesn't work. Maybe China should regime change us. Edit: stingrae points lack of availability may be the City's fault, rather than Skip/Scoot. No sé -- but for sure the city's intervention took a useful, environmentally friendly transit option and made it non-useful.
  - stingrae 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, what is your issue with skip/scoot? All the services seems to be similar to me?
    - dilap 8y ago
      I haven't tried 'em in a bit, so to be fair, maybe it's better now. But last time I tried: Scooter coverage was too sparse to be useful. If you did try to chase down one of the sparsely scattered scooters, usually it would be missing. No way to make it play a sound to help locate it, no way to report it was missing. Gave up and just kept skating everywhere. Whereas I found Lime and Bird to be a practical alternative mode of transport, before they got kicked out.
mr_overalls 8y ago
Anybody miss the days when companies were named something that was at least tangentially related to their function?
- cortesoft 8y ago
  When was this? You might just be thinking it used to be that way because when a new company/product becomes successful, their brand name becomes the term for the thing. Kleenex Xerox Google Asprin Hoover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark
  - tomjakubowski 8y ago
    Xerox's name was meant to evoke its business: > Looking for a term to differentiate its new system, Haloid coined the term xerography from two Greek roots meaning "dry writing". "Aspirin" was named for the Spiraea ulmaria plant used in its synthesis. "Borax" is sodium borate. "Kleenex" helps keep your nose and face and surroundings clean.
- perryh2 8y ago
  Lime has the lime green color on their scooters and Bird's name at least implies mobility.
deft 8y ago
Uber for scooters. How many times was that autogenerated by one of the million (ironic) startup creator sites? These companies are not worth billions. They have an app, thousands of scooters and a near-slavery workforce. The charade of companies like this being displayed as marvels of capitalism and technology isn't going to last much longer. Uber is wearing out its welcome worldwide already.
sonofaplum 8y ago
Full disclosure, I'm anti scooter. People drive them on the sidewalks, leave them in front of my front door, and I genuinely hope that both of these companies, specifically, fail. With that disclosure, was anyone else horrified that the lifespan of these scooters is only 3 months? Are they really removing enough vehicle trips to make these a net positive from an environmental standpoint?
- nullorundefined 8y ago
  3 months? Wow. Definitely not, then. Especially considering that cars drive around every night to pick them up, charge them, and drop them off again.
- qudat 8y ago
  > People drive them on the sidewalks Where else would they drive them? On the road? They would just contribute to the thousands of cyclists that die or are seriously injured every year. If you are suggesting that every electric vehicle be banned because sidewalks are for pedestrians only then I disagree. Streets are for cars only, don't let these fake bike lanes fool you.
  - sonofaplum 8y ago
    Vehicles that move faster than pedestrians should go on the road, like bicycles do. As a bike rider, its a vastly superior option that going on the sidewalk.
    - anonytrary 8y ago
      In more developed areas, there are three options. Fast (main road for cars), medium (bike lane) and slow (sidewalks). I'd imagine birds would ride in the medium and slow lanes. They go up to 15 MPH, which is the run-speed of a human. Should runners be on the bike lane? I don't think so.
      - xur17 8y ago
        > In more developed areas, there are three options. Fast (main road for cars), medium (bike lane) and slow (sidewalks). I'd imagine birds would ride in the medium and slow lanes. And to be clear 'bike lane' != road shoulder with a bike painted on it. A bike lane should have at least some amount of separation from the road in the same way that sidewalks are separated. I'm hopeful that the popularity of scooters speeds up the adoption of medium speed lanes.
fourmii 8y ago
These scooters and scooter companies seem pretty divisive, especially on HN. I understand they're operating in grey areas, I guess kinda like Uber before them, but they are causing (I think) positive disruption. I personally love these scooters. I'm living in Australia now where we don't have them. But last month I took a 3 week road trip from LAX to DC and back so I could hit cities I hadn't been to before. And in many of these cities, I used a Bird to get around. These scooters opened up so much more of these cities for me than I could have seen if I just walked every where. I think they provide real value to a city, for tourists to get around, and for citizens for the last mile and to complement other forms of transport. We just need for these scooter companies to be less like Uber and actually work with the cities to come up with reasonable regulations (in particular insisting on all riders wearing helmets)
- cortesoft 8y ago
  I think the big issue that most people have with them is the large externality of having scooters littered around the sidewalk. In a lot of places in West Los Angeles, you are having to step around them constantly if you walk down the street. People literally just drop them in the middle of the sidewalk, because there is no incentive for them to not do that. This means that everyone who doesn't use the service has to suffer.
  - kerng 8y ago
    Maybe some parking areas for cars can be replaced in favor of scooters and bikes in certain places. Its interesting how we accept that cars are allowed to park nearly everywhere in cities. It's just normal - scooter and bikes will be a new normal also. But hopefully not in addition but instead of cars in some areas.
    - cortesoft 8y ago
      Santa Monica has a TON of parking laws. You certainly can NOT just park your car anywhere you want. Pretty much every parking spot available in the city has rules - how long you can park there, how much you have to pay to park there, who is allowed to park there, what permits you need, etc. We have NONE of this for scooters. We need these same rules for scooters that we have for cars.
rb808 8y ago
Lime and Bird have collectively raised nearly a billion dollars within 14 months of founding at valuations of $1.1 billion and $2 billion, respectively. For reference, American Airlines has market cap of $18 billion and 950 jet planes.
- numair 8y ago
  Actually, I’m pretty sure American Airlines has 950 jet planes on lease, and they have a century’s worth of pension and other obligations that remain hidden in their books. Companies are far too complicated to compare based on single numbers. Try not to make this mistake —- it’s great for clickbait, not so much for critical thinking.
  - rb808 8y ago
    $41B on the balance sheet. https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/36886/html https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/36886/html Yes they do have debt. $44B of revenue. Still Lime and Bird valuations are insane.
numair 8y ago
I have spent a lot of time observing this phenomenon in Venice; here are some of my thoughts. What these scooters have done for SM-Venice is, they’ve gotten people to park farther away and spend less time in cars. Especially the tourists. What does that mean for locals? Well, for one, it means that the nuisance of having to drive slow past people on these things, rather than the nightmare of sitting in standstill traffic if all of those people were in cars instead. Summer traffic in Venice was definitely helped by the scooters, as they replaced a bit of car traffic. These “short haul mobility vehicles” make it much easier for larger groups of people to engage in a large, spread-out, mostly-pedestrian area. They’re completely dorky and I’ll never be caught dead on one... but, at the same time, there’s serious benefits to us all that these things exist. There’s definitely problems (not sure how I feel about seeing them in piles outside of public schools, such as Venice High, and there’s something very Idiocracy-esque in watching them being used by people who would benefit from walking), but I find it to be an overall net-positive. I’m interested to see where the next form factors go, and how these things factor into future urban planning decisions. Especially within geofenced environments where you don’t have to pay for them, they just exist. There’s a lot to ponder here.
- xenihn 8y ago
  Being in an accident involving one owned by Bird/Lime/Uber seems like a legal/insurance nightmare, whether you're a pedestrian, rider, or driver.
  - lingzb 8y ago
    Yes, but there's the same risk with conventional bikes on streets today. And cities like San Francisco agree - they are making it legal for adults to ride electric scooters _without_ helmets so that it matches regulation around bicycle helmets: https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/21/17884220/bird-lime-scooters-rules-helmets-california https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/21/17884220/bird-lime-scooters-...
    - the_clarence 8y ago
      You still need a freaking driver license. They are completely pro-cars
la6470 8y ago
i cannot balance on stand up scooters .. i guess many old people cannot. I will call a taxi .
oh_hello 8y ago
I finally had a chance to try one out recently and was very frustrated with the experience. After attempting to use several shown on Bird's map I gave up. Some were broken, some were almost certainly being hoarded inside of apartment buildings, and some simply could not be found anywhere near the map marker. The experience was a huge letdown after being tempted to try the product so many times.
ph0rque 8y ago
Just noticed them in my parents' town (50k population) this past weekend.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Beefin 8y ago
DC had a scooter death a couple months ago marking among the first in the country: https://dc.curbed.com/2018/9/26/17905378/electric-scooter-death https://dc.curbed.com/2018/9/26/17905378/electric-scooter-de... The wheels are way too small for some of the pot holes in cities.
- gkoberger 8y ago
  And about 33k people die every year in car crashes. The scale is _very_ different, but transportation is always unfortunately somewhat deadly... people are out in the real world and are moving fast.
- randyrand 8y ago
  Involving a car. I wonder if these scooters will cause a death anytime soon without needing to use a car. That would be much more interesting.
  - Cristian_knur 8y ago
    Someone died the other day in a Lime scooter after hitting a tree. If you search for news on scooter accidents you will see they are more likely with Limes. Why not Bird? Because Bird throttles the speed according to the current laws (15mph) while Limes go sometimes up to 20mph. Disclaimer: I work for Bird.
    - the_clarence 8y ago
      When are you guys coming to SF? I don’t have a driver license so I can’t use the shitty alternatives we have at the moment.
- justboxing 8y ago
  and one more mentioned in the article of another dude falling and dying cos he was not wearing a helmet. Only a matter of time before these Lime and Bird sidewalk riders kill a pedestrian.
scelerat 8y ago
In West Oakland I see many people using the Ford Bikes, but yet even more people using the Lime scooters. Kids, adults, techies, non-techies. I think they look kind of dorky, and some end up on the sidewalk and dumped in Lake Merritt. On the other hand, it appears that people are using these scooters a lot, possibly instead of driving. That seems like a positive outcome to me.
- iso1337 8y ago
  I'd imagine that horseless carriages looked dorky back when they were introduced too :) Maybe it's one of those things that will become normalized with time. It would be good if more safety concerns were met though - I do think mandating helmet usage is a good thing.
- jfz 8y ago
  I suspect that the bikes and scooters will appear less dorky over time, as they get normalized. Some people say the bikes "look pretty cool"[1]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/23/17882996/teens-electric-scooter-age-requirement-bird-lime https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/23/17882996/teens-electric-s...
  - kaybe 8y ago
    I remember when people were laughed at for having a pull-behind luggage. Now it's normal.
- the_clarence 8y ago
  I don’t understand why people say that they look dorky. Didn’t you have this scooter trend like 20 years ago in the US? We sure had that in Europe.
  - kaybe 8y ago
    Currently there is a huge trend at the Chaos Communication Congress because the new buildings are so big and the distances far. Last year many places were actually sold out. It's even better if you outfit it with some LEDs and stuff! (So if anyone is going this year - wheels recommended.)
randyrand 8y ago
A lot of this evaluation assumes the price stays the same. $1 + 15 cents a minute. I think we'll see prices come down 80%. These scooter companies will face more competition than uber and Lyft do because people are happy grabbing the first scooter they see when walking. My personal scooter costs a third of a cent per mile of electricity + $350 to buy it. I'm at 150 miles so far, and could easily see this thing lasting a few thousand. So ~20 cents a mile.
- ProfessorLayton 8y ago
  Mind sharing which make/model you purchased? I've been looking at buying one recently, and all the well-reviewed ones seem to be significantly more than $350
  - randyrand 8y ago
    Segway ES 1 (highly highly recommend it) For a time they were $300 on amazon. And then I also bought an external battery pack for cheap somewhere else.
    - ProfessorLayton 8y ago
      Thanks for the recommendation! They're currently $399 on Amazon, however, the scooter seems to have a rating of 3.3/5, which is concerning — with reviewers noting various build quality issues. Anything with a 4+ rating and enough reviews seems to go for ~800+, which is why I haven't purchased one yet.
      - randyrand 8y ago
        it’s true. i’ve had some issues but they’re minor enough to fix yourself if you’re handy. loose handle bars.
- onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
  They have a life cycle of 3 months, so $3 per day. They can only be ridden for 50 minutes before they need charged, which costs $20, which comes down to $0.40 a minute. I don't see the unit cost economics, let alone how the prices could come down by 80%.
tomrod 8y ago
Cool! Are there any servicing companies popping up to re-sale end of life/refurbished scooters?
chuckgreenman 8y ago
The problem with these scooters is that they are great as a user, but terrible for everyone else. They are a lot of fun to ride, but if you're just a regular old pedestrian they are a nightmare, people park them in the streets and pass by you way to quickly and closely on the sidewalk. But riding them in the street pisses off drivers and is pretty dangerous, at least that's how it shakes out in Cincinnati.
- prawn 8y ago
  "The problem with these scooters is that they are great as a user, but terrible for everyone else." So, like cars?
- xur17 8y ago
  > But riding them in the street pisses off drivers and is pretty dangerous, at least that's how it shakes out in Cincinnati. The answer to this is better bicycle infrastructure, and I'm hopeful that scooter popularity helps accelerate this.
- the_clarence 8y ago
  Never had a problem with these. My main issue in cities are cars. They are noisy, they pollute, they are dangerous, they make the buses go slow, they require large streets that take ages to cross, require you to be constanty looking out for cars that might kill you...
zwieback 8y ago
I'm curious to find out what the usage in winter will be, I can't image it will be very popular in rainy or snowy climates.
tjr225 8y ago
I am a frequent user of lime bikes. I think they have a few drawbacks that make them difficult to use all the time however. Mostly: 1. Consistently Well Working Bikes can be hard to find 2. I often use these to get from the residential part of Seattle to the urban parts for date night... it can be very difficult to find two of these near each other. 3. They really need some sort of limited reservation system. This would help mitigate the difficulty of getting multiple bikes.
- TrainedMonkey 8y ago
  Figure out how to use 1 - makes for a way better date.
- Rebelgecko 8y ago
  Bird is actually rolling out reservations, although I think it's more intended for daily users (they say they'll drop a scooter off on your doorstep every morning and only you can unlock it).
  - IshKebab 8y ago
    At that point why not just buy a scooter?
    - blhack 8y ago
      Because then you have to worry about it getting stolen, and you have to remember to charge it. Part of the magic of the birds is that when you're done, you just get off of it and park. 0 anxiety about somebody stealing it.
      - kaybe 8y ago
        Are they too big to just fold and store under your desk or whatever? They don't look that big in the pictures.
lbacaj 8y ago
Facts are facts but to me this always seemed like the dumbest idea. I thought it was a dumb idea before the City Bike program was introduced here in NYC then I thought so many people would get hurt with the way Cabbies drive out here. Fast forward a few years and the program is a huge success here in NYC, there was some accidents but no where near what I thought there would be. People obviously love Biking and I was completely wrong. What’s even crazier now I think with the technology and access becoming even easier this has the power to completely transform cities. Obviously people love this and politicians that don’t support it will be voted out, it’s looking more and more like there could be entire roads dedicated to bikes and scooters as this becomes more popular. Mayor Bloomberg wanted to limit the amount of cars in the city and put a toll on any any cars going below 95th street in Manhattan, people rebelled back then but if something like this had been in place the Cabbies and Car owners would be out of luck.
- the_clarence 8y ago
  It’s hard to grasp for older generations because everyone had to drive. But less and less people have a driver license nowadays in large cities.
  - asdff 8y ago
    Cars are fundamentally, egregiously inefficient. Most of their use comes from one person going to one place using one of their 5+ seats, yet automakers have to design an engine powerful enough to move 5+ people, and the 3000lbs of the car. A scooter only needs enough energy to move one person plus the 15lbs of the scooter. Older generations are blind to this fact because their entire life they've been sold the idea that they need to buy and spend money moving and storing a 3000lb hunk of metal with them every single day. Imagine paying money to go somewhere, knowing full well the major percent of that money is going to move a ton+ of material, and only a fraction is spent to move your physical body; you'd be outraged, but that is what a car is.
buzzy_hacker 8y ago
I really liked riding them until I realized how expensive they were. When you use them everyday, it adds up quick. Hundreds of dollars a month. I now bike everywhere instead and wonder why others don't. I could see using them when traveling, where I wouldn't have my bike with me.
rocketpastsix 8y ago
It's funny to see this just after in Nashville a Bird user ran a red light and got hit by a car. Now I know this user is not indicitive of all users, but it's enough to galvinize the people against them. I say this as someone who loves them. I hope they stick around, but its only a matter of time someone in a party city like Nashville is drunk and ends up getting hit leading to a death.
andrewmutz 8y ago
I would love to see some stats on repeat usage. Is this a fad where people just want to try something new? Or are people actually shifting regular transportation to these?
analogmemory 8y ago
As a cyclist, I'm hopeful that these bike/scooter/wheel-shares programs will force governments to examine their plans for keeping people safe. More low-speed travel lanes for bikes, scooters, one-wheels, hoverboards, etc. Keep the sidewalks for walking and wheelchairs. Otherwise we are sure to end up like China in these photos: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/03/bike-share-oversupply-in-china-huge-piles-of-abandoned-and-broken-bicycles/556268/ https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/03/bike-share-oversup...
- the_clarence 8y ago
  Less cars! These huge roads need to be shared to other modes of transportation.
  - rb666 8y ago
    Exactly this, Americans need to detox from their truck-obsession. Size of your car does not make you a tough guy.
Aeolun 8y ago
I had to do a double take here. It seemed this was a joke article to me.
lazyjones 8y ago
Is the business model sustainable? They do need people to pick these scooters up, charge them at home and deploy them somewhere.
- asdff 8y ago
  Like any gig economy job, people have gotten religious at it. There's a guy by my neighborhood who drives slowly with a brand new sprinter van while another loads the scooters into the moving vehicle. There is no shortage of people willing to rack up $100 a day on the side.
redbrickroad 8y ago
> The big wild card, though, is whether Uber or Lyft buy Lime or Bird. Uber is talking to both companies about an acquisition so this is not just a hypothetical question. Why would Uber buy either of these companies? Uber already has JUMP scooters. Can't they afford to create way more scooters than either Lime or Bird? Sure, Uber isn't one of the two companies who are part of the scooter pilot in SF. Still, I doubt that justifies spending hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars on buying a company.
torgian 8y ago
Reading the comments here make me chuckle. I honestly find it mind boggling that people would complain of bicycles taking up space, let alone scooters. I love the bike share programs in Taiwan and China. I haven’t used a car in years. Yeah some people trash the bikes but most people at least seem to give a shit. Why this is such an issue in the West, I can’t understand...
- the_clarence 8y ago
  People in the US love their big cars...
JohnJamesRambo 8y ago
When will it peak and go down again so I don’t have to keep looking at this garbage strewn haphazardly all about the city?
bluescrn 8y ago
Wish they’d legalise electric scooters here in the UK.
the_clarence 8y ago
Just waiting to be able to ride one in San Francisco without a driver license (which is impossible right now). I can’t wait to be able to commute short distances without having to take cabs everywhere.
Tade0 8y ago
One interesting thing about these scooters is that their lifetime CO2 emissions are actually slightly less than a that of a vegan on a bicycle. That is given the following assumptions are correct: -A vegan on a bicycle has a carbon footprint of 22g/km of CO2. -The scooters are Xiaomi Mi electric scooters with a 330Wh(approx based on specs) battery of the type with the biggest CO2 footprint(250kg/kWh). -Electricity comes exclusively from coal(1kg/kWh of CO2). With these assumptions the break-even point is 7500km or 4700 miles - that's approx. one charge each workday.
billsmithaustin 8y ago
“Lime recently indicated their latest scooters have an average lifespan of 4 months.” I wonder what happens to the scooter after that. Landfill? Recycle?
jv22222 8y ago
It would be cool if these things helped cities make streets safer for all cyclists and small vehicles. I can imagine that VC's won't like articles like this and that may have a knock on effect of making cities better in the long term. https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/09/24/e-scooter-deaths-underscore-the-urgent-need-for-safer-streets/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/09/24/e-scooter-deaths-unde...
JohnWilcox 8y ago
And with "socialized medicine" EVERYONE gets to pay for the massive increase of major injuries due to scooter accidents.
wavefunction 8y ago
They're a menace to society given the un-insured nature of their services. A local journalist had some scooter doofus run into her vehicle badly enough to damage the ability to open the driver's side door, then he turned around and claimed she hit him. So she was facing having a record of striking a pedestrian on her driver's and insurance records and was only saved by footage from a surveillance camera. What a joy!

219 points by lingzb 8y ago

I loved using Lime, but I can see cities banning it like SF. You aren't supposed to ride the scooter on side walks and many people do it. People just leave it in random places and I know some cities don't like this.

criddell 8y ago
SF allows scooters, but not Bird or Lime because of their conduct.
- asdff 8y ago
  Ahh, yes. It was the companies who rode them on the sidewalks.
  - criddell 8y ago
    I believe it was more about dumping scooters all over the city before getting permits.
whyenot 8y ago
Someone somehow managed to abandon one on the roof (7th floor) of my work building. Getting the damn thing down to the ground floor and out of the building was not a lot of fun. Moving it locked up the wheels and triggered the alarm. It even announced through a speaker that it was "calling the police." With some help I was able to get it down, moved into a service elevator, and escorted out of the building. The stupid thing would not shut up. Someone must have come by and collected it because it was gone by the end of the day. Pain in the ass, and the company, in typical Silicon Valley fashion, didn't have any information on their website about how to contact a real person or to report an abandoned scooter. If this is going to be a regular thing, where I have to be an impromptu scooter wrangler, I want my cut :)
- Cristian_knur 8y ago
  Bird is different. They have real people answering the phone or email all the time. Disclaimer: I work for Bird.
the_clarence 8y ago
So instead we get millions of cars. Nice alternative...

umvi 8y ago

Remind me again why they are allowed to litter all the public sidewalks and street corners with their scooters? Regulation hasn't caught up yet?

marcell 8y ago
Because people derive value from the service. It's faster than walking, more convenient than an Uber, and doesn't require a car. Let's leave the "get off my lawn" comments off HN.
- sdinsn 8y ago
  It's not a "get off my lawn" comment. Regulations about these scooters don't exist in the large majority of places- meaning the default local regulations about illegal dumping apply. Whether people derive value from it or not is not important to local laws. These scooter companies are operating in a grey area; that's a fact. Please don't quickly dismiss discussion about this issue, especially in such an ignorant manner.
  - gibolt 8y ago
    Scooters occupy ~5% the space as a car. Dedicating 2-10% of the spots on each block/public lot to bikes/scooters should already be built in as a public service. If you've ever biked as a mode of transport, even in most US 'bike-friendly' cities, you'll know how few bike racks are available.
    - nullorundefined 8y ago
      Ebike startups are even making it required that the bike gets docked. So, it's not impossible.
  - lnanek2 8y ago
    > These scooter companies are operating in a grey area; that's a fact That's not true at all where I live. Santa Monica often bans them for not following rules, makes deals with other companies, etc.. Every app is forced to implement geofencing for not allowing riding on the beach walkways, for example. On popular roads like Abbot Kinney there are small fenced off corals where the government has replaced a car parking spot with a scooter and bicycle one. So yes, scooter companies do have specific laws they have to follow. It's actually a drawback since the city favors Jump over local companies like Bird, and Jump has a lot less availability.

powera 8y ago

Translation: we are entering a scooter bubble.

whymsicalburito 8y ago
How do we short it??
- quickthrower2 8y ago
  Start a scrap metal business
surge 8y ago
Yep, my town temporarily banned them because of safety issues, I liked the dockless bikes better because they at least had some barrier to entry that anyone who wasn't versed in basic riding safety couldn't just pick one up since most bike riders know the basics. That said they are cool when used properly, but they're being regulated and towns are starting to charge taxes/fees to make sure they're not a nuisance and require them to leave them in low income areas.

kerng 8y ago

Will be interesting if Uber or Lyft will postpone IPO in favor or buying one of them. Cant imagine it's possible to acquire one of them and still IPO in near future - but who knows. Exciting to see scooters and bikes get nice adoption! Changing the form factor to be more like a mini car (with at least a seat) would be neat, scooters just dont feel that safe.

whoisjuan 8y ago
Uber has around 7 billion (last time I heard) and this year they will lose around 5 billion, maybe more. Uber is on track to run out of money in 2019, so a financial event is inmminent. I don't know if we will see an Uber 2019 IPO, but if it doesn't happen is more likely due to the current bear market and not so much because they are considering a large acquisition. If they acquire a scooter company I presume they will do it through a mix of debt and a heavy stock component. In fact it seems that they already raised another 2 billion through private placement bonds.
lingzb 8y ago
Yes, I think whether Uber or Lyft (esp. Uber) can pull off such big acquisitions before their IPOs is the big big question on how this market shakes out.

askaboutit 8y ago

Stand up scooters feel so unstable. Why not just add a seat and allow a seated scooter that’s foldable. The problem with last mile transport is that the laws in many countries need electric bikes to have peddles and peddle assistance. Just let people have a certain power and max speed and they will drop the car and replace it with a powered scooter. Aka, China.

hocuspocus 8y ago
*Pedal. Some EU countries have already announced that scooters will soon be treated similarly to e-bikes, i.e. max 250W and 25km/h for the ones that don't need registration and plates. While more expensive and less portable, a bike is a lot safer and more versatile.
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  I feel far less safe on a bicycle than I ever do on a Bird/Lime-style scooter. Main reason is I can go a lot slower, bicycles have to maintain a certain amount of inertia and that seriously affects riding habits. If I'm coming up on an intersection I can slow down a lot but if I'm riding a bike, I'm incentivized to blow through. With a scooter, I can go at a safe speed around pedestrians on sidewalks and stop abruptly if necessary with my feet. The inertia requirement makes it difficult to go sufficiently slow around pedestrians on a bike and I always feel like I'm an asshole no matter where I am if not a dedicated bike lane. I think only familiarity leads people to think that bikes are safer than scooters. Given a choice between an electric bicycle and an electric scooter, now that I've ridden both, give me the scooter any day.
  - ip26 8y ago
    Bikes handle a lot better at speed & tend to have better brakes. Of course, if your speed is low, that doesn't matter.
  - skksjsnaahs 8y ago
    I understand it sucks to stop at a stop light on an analog bike, but why on an ebike? You get help starting up again, like an escooter.

albertgoeswoof 8y ago

I have friends in London and commuter towns buying scooters for their own use- despite knowing that they can’t ride them legally. There are none for hire here. When are they arriving?

easytiger 8y ago
Given C. London pavements are incredibly narrow, inexorably busy and often uneven, people on these things are a nightmare. Even non electric ones are a nightmare.
the_clarence 8y ago
The streets are not good for scooters in London. Even biking is a nightmare there...

sleepinseattle 8y ago

Interestingly I just noticed Lime-branded Fiat cars in Seattle for the first time yesterday. Looks like they're taking on Car2Go and ReachNow. Looks like it launched a couple weeks ago: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bike-share-company-lime-launching-car-rental-service-in-seattle/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/bik...

lingzb 8y ago
I really want to try this. I think easy car sharing could be huge and it'd be amazing to be rid of the hassle that is car ownership (monthly parking, insurance, maintenance, etc.)

smallgovt 8y ago

My guess is that Lime and Bird's latest investors don't actually believe in these insane valuations. Instead, they see these companies as a safe place to park their money due to the limited downside provided by liquid preference terms.

nihonde 8y ago
Curious: What kind of preference is normal at this stage?
- smallgovt 8y ago
  Fenwick publishes a quarterly survey of market terms for VC rounds. Their Q3 2018 report suggests ~10% of rounds are being done with a liquid pref >1x, and those terms are almost always between 1-2x. Given that these stats are for series A-E rounds, I would expect the liquid pref in these mega rounds to be very close to 1x if not 1x exactly. Source: https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Silicon-Valley-Venture-Capital-Survey-Third-Quarter-2018.pdf https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Silicon-Valley-Vent...
taylorswift_ 8y ago
I discovered scooters recently and have rode them in three major cities during the past month. I have to say it is the most genius consumer tech product I've seen in a long time. I instantly felt a sense of "wow" after riding the first one (bird). The entire experience is so simple, so elegant (ui/ux), cheap, efficient, and most importantly FUN. I looked up bird and lime to discover they'd each received over 400M in funding and it makes perfect sense to me. This is a disruptive technology that's going to see major adoption in every city across the entire planet. You have to ride one to understand, especially in an urban, downtown, waterfront or metro type area. They're going to easily cut into bikeshare and short-trip rideshare services. Take a ride and you'll see, #scootlife! Also worth noting, none of the technology is itself "new", but rather bird & lime particularly have packaged existing technologies together to make a product with all the qualities mentioned above. Innovation is usually just a twist on something that's already out there.

whymsicalburito 8y ago

This article says these scooters make $16/day in revenue?! Where are they making that kind of money? The scooters in my city just sit in the same place for DAYS without moving... I don't buy those numbers at all...

eclipxe 8y ago
What city?
- whymsicalburito 8y ago
  Santa Barbara and Goleta
  - lingzb 8y ago
    It's possible that utilization is lower in smaller cities.
oh_sigh 8y ago
Maybe you live in a low usage area, and scooters that just go back and forth in high usage areas generate far more than $16/day?
- whymsicalburito 8y ago
  That's possible, but with a range of only 15 miles and they're most likely only getting charged at night, that's a max revenue of around $35/day for a scooter. I doubt there's enough scooters maxing out each day to offset the losers.
  - bsder 8y ago
    > That's possible, but with a range of only 15 miles and they're most likely only getting charged at night I suspect that statement isn't true. I see multiple drops a day on my street.
8y ago

Uehreka 8y ago

I live in Baltimore and these things have been awesome. Over the summer and early fall, I used them a lot for trips that were between 3-15 blocks. They were usually less than half the price of a Lyft, were fun to drive, don't directly use fossil fuels and were usually available (in one app or the other) within a block or two of my house. I used them to meet friends for brunch, to pick up my car from getting worked on, to go to bars near my house and to go vote in November. Now that it's gotten colder, I think my range for using them will contract to something like 2-8 blocks, but I don't think I'll cut off using them entirely. I don't notice them being "piled up" anywhere (except for at a street festival, but lots of people were picking them up too), and I don't think I've ever run into a situation where my path was actively blocked by one. Baltimore used to have a bike share, but I've heard it's being shut down and even when it was up they had a hard time keeping bikes in all the stalls.

pfisch 8y ago
"don't directly use fossil fuels" Looks like Maryland uses a significant amount of coal to power their grid, so is this even a good thing?
- MBlume 8y ago
  It doesn't matter what's powering them, the power requirements are so much smaller than those for moving a 2-3 ton automobile that you still come out way ahead
- lostcolony 8y ago
  Easier to replace the energy powering the grid than to, say, power a vehicle directly with non-fossil fuel sources. It may still be using fossil fuels due to what is powering the grid, but that can be changed out over time; when using a gasoline powered car, you can't, until you replace the car. It's why electric cars are viewed as being friendly; the grid they're plugged into may still be fossil fuels, but that can change at any time. A gasoline powered car won't change its reliance on fossil fuels until you replace it.
- minitoar 8y ago

dvt 8y ago

I cannot stand the Limes and Birds around Santa Monica. I walk out of my apartment, and the streets are littered with them. It's annoying when walking, it's even more annoying when jogging, and riders are constantly riding them (without helmets) on sidewalks even though we have bike lanes. They're even a nuisance when driving. I'm hoping for some legislation that will ban them -- I might set up a grassroots campaign myself. It's mostly the tourists using them, anyway.

oh_sigh 8y ago
Is there a reason these don't count as just trash? If I leave my scooter lying on the side of the road, I would never assume that it would still be there if I came back to it.
cwkoss 8y ago
Set up a shop buying and selling "secondhand scooter parts" - don't ask too many questions and you could make a nice profit while incentivizing others to dismantle their inventory.
- draw_down 8y ago
  Selling to whom?
- madengr 8y ago
  I was thinking scrap value. Toss them in an industrial shredder, sans battery pack, then separate out the metals. Maybe a mobile shredder.
  - cwkoss 8y ago
    Yep, plus battery packs, wheels, and electronics would probably have some resale value once parted out, especially if you can provide larger lots.
  - blhack 8y ago
    Why not do the exact same thing with cars? Heck, why not just break into people's homes and rob them while you're at it!

dawhizkid 8y ago

It's strange that even though SF approved 2 scooter companies to operate that I feel like I rarely see anyone actually use vs what I saw when Bird/Lime were here.

lucasmullens 8y ago
Scoot removed a bunch of them due to theft. I believe they're trying to figure out a locking mechanism before ramping up again.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  To be fair, after seeing homeless people playing around with them and even peeing on them, im not getting close to any of them.
  - the_clarence 8y ago
    Good luck living in SF if you care about homeless people.
dilap 8y ago
SF didn't want to make BART feel bad by providing actual competent transit options, so we got the joke that is Skip/Scoot. Seriously, this city has convinced me democracy doesn't work. Maybe China should regime change us. Edit: stingrae points lack of availability may be the City's fault, rather than Skip/Scoot. No sé -- but for sure the city's intervention took a useful, environmentally friendly transit option and made it non-useful.
- stingrae 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, what is your issue with skip/scoot? All the services seems to be similar to me?
  - dilap 8y ago
    I haven't tried 'em in a bit, so to be fair, maybe it's better now. But last time I tried: Scooter coverage was too sparse to be useful. If you did try to chase down one of the sparsely scattered scooters, usually it would be missing. No way to make it play a sound to help locate it, no way to report it was missing. Gave up and just kept skating everywhere. Whereas I found Lime and Bird to be a practical alternative mode of transport, before they got kicked out.

mr_overalls 8y ago

Anybody miss the days when companies were named something that was at least tangentially related to their function?

cortesoft 8y ago
When was this? You might just be thinking it used to be that way because when a new company/product becomes successful, their brand name becomes the term for the thing. Kleenex Xerox Google Asprin Hoover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_trademark
- tomjakubowski 8y ago
  Xerox's name was meant to evoke its business: > Looking for a term to differentiate its new system, Haloid coined the term xerography from two Greek roots meaning "dry writing". "Aspirin" was named for the Spiraea ulmaria plant used in its synthesis. "Borax" is sodium borate. "Kleenex" helps keep your nose and face and surroundings clean.
perryh2 8y ago
Lime has the lime green color on their scooters and Bird's name at least implies mobility.

deft 8y ago

Uber for scooters. How many times was that autogenerated by one of the million (ironic) startup creator sites? These companies are not worth billions. They have an app, thousands of scooters and a near-slavery workforce. The charade of companies like this being displayed as marvels of capitalism and technology isn't going to last much longer. Uber is wearing out its welcome worldwide already.

sonofaplum 8y ago

Full disclosure, I'm anti scooter. People drive them on the sidewalks, leave them in front of my front door, and I genuinely hope that both of these companies, specifically, fail. With that disclosure, was anyone else horrified that the lifespan of these scooters is only 3 months? Are they really removing enough vehicle trips to make these a net positive from an environmental standpoint?

nullorundefined 8y ago
3 months? Wow. Definitely not, then. Especially considering that cars drive around every night to pick them up, charge them, and drop them off again.
qudat 8y ago
> People drive them on the sidewalks Where else would they drive them? On the road? They would just contribute to the thousands of cyclists that die or are seriously injured every year. If you are suggesting that every electric vehicle be banned because sidewalks are for pedestrians only then I disagree. Streets are for cars only, don't let these fake bike lanes fool you.
- sonofaplum 8y ago
  Vehicles that move faster than pedestrians should go on the road, like bicycles do. As a bike rider, its a vastly superior option that going on the sidewalk.
  - anonytrary 8y ago
    In more developed areas, there are three options. Fast (main road for cars), medium (bike lane) and slow (sidewalks). I'd imagine birds would ride in the medium and slow lanes. They go up to 15 MPH, which is the run-speed of a human. Should runners be on the bike lane? I don't think so.
    - xur17 8y ago
      > In more developed areas, there are three options. Fast (main road for cars), medium (bike lane) and slow (sidewalks). I'd imagine birds would ride in the medium and slow lanes. And to be clear 'bike lane' != road shoulder with a bike painted on it. A bike lane should have at least some amount of separation from the road in the same way that sidewalks are separated. I'm hopeful that the popularity of scooters speeds up the adoption of medium speed lanes.

fourmii 8y ago

These scooters and scooter companies seem pretty divisive, especially on HN. I understand they're operating in grey areas, I guess kinda like Uber before them, but they are causing (I think) positive disruption. I personally love these scooters. I'm living in Australia now where we don't have them. But last month I took a 3 week road trip from LAX to DC and back so I could hit cities I hadn't been to before. And in many of these cities, I used a Bird to get around. These scooters opened up so much more of these cities for me than I could have seen if I just walked every where. I think they provide real value to a city, for tourists to get around, and for citizens for the last mile and to complement other forms of transport. We just need for these scooter companies to be less like Uber and actually work with the cities to come up with reasonable regulations (in particular insisting on all riders wearing helmets)

cortesoft 8y ago
I think the big issue that most people have with them is the large externality of having scooters littered around the sidewalk. In a lot of places in West Los Angeles, you are having to step around them constantly if you walk down the street. People literally just drop them in the middle of the sidewalk, because there is no incentive for them to not do that. This means that everyone who doesn't use the service has to suffer.
- kerng 8y ago
  Maybe some parking areas for cars can be replaced in favor of scooters and bikes in certain places. Its interesting how we accept that cars are allowed to park nearly everywhere in cities. It's just normal - scooter and bikes will be a new normal also. But hopefully not in addition but instead of cars in some areas.
  - cortesoft 8y ago
    Santa Monica has a TON of parking laws. You certainly can NOT just park your car anywhere you want. Pretty much every parking spot available in the city has rules - how long you can park there, how much you have to pay to park there, who is allowed to park there, what permits you need, etc. We have NONE of this for scooters. We need these same rules for scooters that we have for cars.

rb808 8y ago

Lime and Bird have collectively raised nearly a billion dollars within 14 months of founding at valuations of $1.1 billion and $2 billion, respectively. For reference, American Airlines has market cap of $18 billion and 950 jet planes.

numair 8y ago
Actually, I’m pretty sure American Airlines has 950 jet planes on lease, and they have a century’s worth of pension and other obligations that remain hidden in their books. Companies are far too complicated to compare based on single numbers. Try not to make this mistake —- it’s great for clickbait, not so much for critical thinking.
- rb808 8y ago
  $41B on the balance sheet. https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/36886/html https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/node/36886/html Yes they do have debt. $44B of revenue. Still Lime and Bird valuations are insane.

numair 8y ago

I have spent a lot of time observing this phenomenon in Venice; here are some of my thoughts. What these scooters have done for SM-Venice is, they’ve gotten people to park farther away and spend less time in cars. Especially the tourists. What does that mean for locals? Well, for one, it means that the nuisance of having to drive slow past people on these things, rather than the nightmare of sitting in standstill traffic if all of those people were in cars instead. Summer traffic in Venice was definitely helped by the scooters, as they replaced a bit of car traffic. These “short haul mobility vehicles” make it much easier for larger groups of people to engage in a large, spread-out, mostly-pedestrian area. They’re completely dorky and I’ll never be caught dead on one... but, at the same time, there’s serious benefits to us all that these things exist. There’s definitely problems (not sure how I feel about seeing them in piles outside of public schools, such as Venice High, and there’s something very Idiocracy-esque in watching them being used by people who would benefit from walking), but I find it to be an overall net-positive. I’m interested to see where the next form factors go, and how these things factor into future urban planning decisions. Especially within geofenced environments where you don’t have to pay for them, they just exist. There’s a lot to ponder here.

xenihn 8y ago
Being in an accident involving one owned by Bird/Lime/Uber seems like a legal/insurance nightmare, whether you're a pedestrian, rider, or driver.
- lingzb 8y ago
  Yes, but there's the same risk with conventional bikes on streets today. And cities like San Francisco agree - they are making it legal for adults to ride electric scooters _without_ helmets so that it matches regulation around bicycle helmets: https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/21/17884220/bird-lime-scooters-rules-helmets-california https://la.curbed.com/2018/9/21/17884220/bird-lime-scooters-...
  - the_clarence 8y ago
    You still need a freaking driver license. They are completely pro-cars

la6470 8y ago

i cannot balance on stand up scooters .. i guess many old people cannot. I will call a taxi .

oh_hello 8y ago

I finally had a chance to try one out recently and was very frustrated with the experience. After attempting to use several shown on Bird's map I gave up. Some were broken, some were almost certainly being hoarded inside of apartment buildings, and some simply could not be found anywhere near the map marker. The experience was a huge letdown after being tempted to try the product so many times.

ph0rque 8y ago

Just noticed them in my parents' town (50k population) this past weekend.

deleted 8y ago

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Beefin 8y ago

DC had a scooter death a couple months ago marking among the first in the country: https://dc.curbed.com/2018/9/26/17905378/electric-scooter-death https://dc.curbed.com/2018/9/26/17905378/electric-scooter-de... The wheels are way too small for some of the pot holes in cities.

gkoberger 8y ago
And about 33k people die every year in car crashes. The scale is _very_ different, but transportation is always unfortunately somewhat deadly... people are out in the real world and are moving fast.
randyrand 8y ago
Involving a car. I wonder if these scooters will cause a death anytime soon without needing to use a car. That would be much more interesting.
- Cristian_knur 8y ago
  Someone died the other day in a Lime scooter after hitting a tree. If you search for news on scooter accidents you will see they are more likely with Limes. Why not Bird? Because Bird throttles the speed according to the current laws (15mph) while Limes go sometimes up to 20mph. Disclaimer: I work for Bird.
  - the_clarence 8y ago
    When are you guys coming to SF? I don’t have a driver license so I can’t use the shitty alternatives we have at the moment.
justboxing 8y ago
and one more mentioned in the article of another dude falling and dying cos he was not wearing a helmet. Only a matter of time before these Lime and Bird sidewalk riders kill a pedestrian.

scelerat 8y ago

In West Oakland I see many people using the Ford Bikes, but yet even more people using the Lime scooters. Kids, adults, techies, non-techies. I think they look kind of dorky, and some end up on the sidewalk and dumped in Lake Merritt. On the other hand, it appears that people are using these scooters a lot, possibly instead of driving. That seems like a positive outcome to me.

iso1337 8y ago
I'd imagine that horseless carriages looked dorky back when they were introduced too :) Maybe it's one of those things that will become normalized with time. It would be good if more safety concerns were met though - I do think mandating helmet usage is a good thing.
jfz 8y ago
I suspect that the bikes and scooters will appear less dorky over time, as they get normalized. Some people say the bikes "look pretty cool"[1]. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/23/17882996/teens-electric-scooter-age-requirement-bird-lime https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/23/17882996/teens-electric-s...
- kaybe 8y ago
  I remember when people were laughed at for having a pull-behind luggage. Now it's normal.
the_clarence 8y ago
I don’t understand why people say that they look dorky. Didn’t you have this scooter trend like 20 years ago in the US? We sure had that in Europe.
- kaybe 8y ago
  Currently there is a huge trend at the Chaos Communication Congress because the new buildings are so big and the distances far. Last year many places were actually sold out. It's even better if you outfit it with some LEDs and stuff! (So if anyone is going this year - wheels recommended.)

randyrand 8y ago

A lot of this evaluation assumes the price stays the same. $1 + 15 cents a minute. I think we'll see prices come down 80%. These scooter companies will face more competition than uber and Lyft do because people are happy grabbing the first scooter they see when walking. My personal scooter costs a third of a cent per mile of electricity + $350 to buy it. I'm at 150 miles so far, and could easily see this thing lasting a few thousand. So ~20 cents a mile.

ProfessorLayton 8y ago
Mind sharing which make/model you purchased? I've been looking at buying one recently, and all the well-reviewed ones seem to be significantly more than $350
- randyrand 8y ago
  Segway ES 1 (highly highly recommend it) For a time they were $300 on amazon. And then I also bought an external battery pack for cheap somewhere else.
  - ProfessorLayton 8y ago
    Thanks for the recommendation! They're currently $399 on Amazon, however, the scooter seems to have a rating of 3.3/5, which is concerning — with reviewers noting various build quality issues. Anything with a 4+ rating and enough reviews seems to go for ~800+, which is why I haven't purchased one yet.
    - randyrand 8y ago
      it’s true. i’ve had some issues but they’re minor enough to fix yourself if you’re handy. loose handle bars.
onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
They have a life cycle of 3 months, so $3 per day. They can only be ridden for 50 minutes before they need charged, which costs $20, which comes down to $0.40 a minute. I don't see the unit cost economics, let alone how the prices could come down by 80%.

tomrod 8y ago

Cool! Are there any servicing companies popping up to re-sale end of life/refurbished scooters?

chuckgreenman 8y ago

The problem with these scooters is that they are great as a user, but terrible for everyone else. They are a lot of fun to ride, but if you're just a regular old pedestrian they are a nightmare, people park them in the streets and pass by you way to quickly and closely on the sidewalk. But riding them in the street pisses off drivers and is pretty dangerous, at least that's how it shakes out in Cincinnati.

prawn 8y ago
"The problem with these scooters is that they are great as a user, but terrible for everyone else." So, like cars?
xur17 8y ago
> But riding them in the street pisses off drivers and is pretty dangerous, at least that's how it shakes out in Cincinnati. The answer to this is better bicycle infrastructure, and I'm hopeful that scooter popularity helps accelerate this.
the_clarence 8y ago
Never had a problem with these. My main issue in cities are cars. They are noisy, they pollute, they are dangerous, they make the buses go slow, they require large streets that take ages to cross, require you to be constanty looking out for cars that might kill you...

zwieback 8y ago

I'm curious to find out what the usage in winter will be, I can't image it will be very popular in rainy or snowy climates.

tjr225 8y ago

I am a frequent user of lime bikes. I think they have a few drawbacks that make them difficult to use all the time however. Mostly: 1. Consistently Well Working Bikes can be hard to find 2. I often use these to get from the residential part of Seattle to the urban parts for date night... it can be very difficult to find two of these near each other. 3. They really need some sort of limited reservation system. This would help mitigate the difficulty of getting multiple bikes.

TrainedMonkey 8y ago
Figure out how to use 1 - makes for a way better date.
Rebelgecko 8y ago
Bird is actually rolling out reservations, although I think it's more intended for daily users (they say they'll drop a scooter off on your doorstep every morning and only you can unlock it).
- IshKebab 8y ago
  At that point why not just buy a scooter?
  - blhack 8y ago
    Because then you have to worry about it getting stolen, and you have to remember to charge it. Part of the magic of the birds is that when you're done, you just get off of it and park. 0 anxiety about somebody stealing it.
    - kaybe 8y ago
      Are they too big to just fold and store under your desk or whatever? They don't look that big in the pictures.

lbacaj 8y ago

Facts are facts but to me this always seemed like the dumbest idea. I thought it was a dumb idea before the City Bike program was introduced here in NYC then I thought so many people would get hurt with the way Cabbies drive out here. Fast forward a few years and the program is a huge success here in NYC, there was some accidents but no where near what I thought there would be. People obviously love Biking and I was completely wrong. What’s even crazier now I think with the technology and access becoming even easier this has the power to completely transform cities. Obviously people love this and politicians that don’t support it will be voted out, it’s looking more and more like there could be entire roads dedicated to bikes and scooters as this becomes more popular. Mayor Bloomberg wanted to limit the amount of cars in the city and put a toll on any any cars going below 95th street in Manhattan, people rebelled back then but if something like this had been in place the Cabbies and Car owners would be out of luck.

the_clarence 8y ago
It’s hard to grasp for older generations because everyone had to drive. But less and less people have a driver license nowadays in large cities.
- asdff 8y ago
  Cars are fundamentally, egregiously inefficient. Most of their use comes from one person going to one place using one of their 5+ seats, yet automakers have to design an engine powerful enough to move 5+ people, and the 3000lbs of the car. A scooter only needs enough energy to move one person plus the 15lbs of the scooter. Older generations are blind to this fact because their entire life they've been sold the idea that they need to buy and spend money moving and storing a 3000lb hunk of metal with them every single day. Imagine paying money to go somewhere, knowing full well the major percent of that money is going to move a ton+ of material, and only a fraction is spent to move your physical body; you'd be outraged, but that is what a car is.

buzzy_hacker 8y ago

I really liked riding them until I realized how expensive they were. When you use them everyday, it adds up quick. Hundreds of dollars a month. I now bike everywhere instead and wonder why others don't. I could see using them when traveling, where I wouldn't have my bike with me.

rocketpastsix 8y ago

It's funny to see this just after in Nashville a Bird user ran a red light and got hit by a car. Now I know this user is not indicitive of all users, but it's enough to galvinize the people against them. I say this as someone who loves them. I hope they stick around, but its only a matter of time someone in a party city like Nashville is drunk and ends up getting hit leading to a death.

andrewmutz 8y ago

I would love to see some stats on repeat usage. Is this a fad where people just want to try something new? Or are people actually shifting regular transportation to these?

analogmemory 8y ago

As a cyclist, I'm hopeful that these bike/scooter/wheel-shares programs will force governments to examine their plans for keeping people safe. More low-speed travel lanes for bikes, scooters, one-wheels, hoverboards, etc. Keep the sidewalks for walking and wheelchairs. Otherwise we are sure to end up like China in these photos: https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/03/bike-share-oversupply-in-china-huge-piles-of-abandoned-and-broken-bicycles/556268/ https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2018/03/bike-share-oversup...

the_clarence 8y ago
Less cars! These huge roads need to be shared to other modes of transportation.
- rb666 8y ago
  Exactly this, Americans need to detox from their truck-obsession. Size of your car does not make you a tough guy.

Aeolun 8y ago

I had to do a double take here. It seemed this was a joke article to me.

lazyjones 8y ago

Is the business model sustainable? They do need people to pick these scooters up, charge them at home and deploy them somewhere.

asdff 8y ago
Like any gig economy job, people have gotten religious at it. There's a guy by my neighborhood who drives slowly with a brand new sprinter van while another loads the scooters into the moving vehicle. There is no shortage of people willing to rack up $100 a day on the side.

redbrickroad 8y ago

> The big wild card, though, is whether Uber or Lyft buy Lime or Bird. Uber is talking to both companies about an acquisition so this is not just a hypothetical question. Why would Uber buy either of these companies? Uber already has JUMP scooters. Can't they afford to create way more scooters than either Lime or Bird? Sure, Uber isn't one of the two companies who are part of the scooter pilot in SF. Still, I doubt that justifies spending hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars on buying a company.

torgian 8y ago

Reading the comments here make me chuckle. I honestly find it mind boggling that people would complain of bicycles taking up space, let alone scooters. I love the bike share programs in Taiwan and China. I haven’t used a car in years. Yeah some people trash the bikes but most people at least seem to give a shit. Why this is such an issue in the West, I can’t understand...

the_clarence 8y ago
People in the US love their big cars...

JohnJamesRambo 8y ago

When will it peak and go down again so I don’t have to keep looking at this garbage strewn haphazardly all about the city?

bluescrn 8y ago

Wish they’d legalise electric scooters here in the UK.

the_clarence 8y ago

Just waiting to be able to ride one in San Francisco without a driver license (which is impossible right now). I can’t wait to be able to commute short distances without having to take cabs everywhere.

Tade0 8y ago

One interesting thing about these scooters is that their lifetime CO2 emissions are actually slightly less than a that of a vegan on a bicycle. That is given the following assumptions are correct: -A vegan on a bicycle has a carbon footprint of 22g/km of CO2. -The scooters are Xiaomi Mi electric scooters with a 330Wh(approx based on specs) battery of the type with the biggest CO2 footprint(250kg/kWh). -Electricity comes exclusively from coal(1kg/kWh of CO2). With these assumptions the break-even point is 7500km or 4700 miles - that's approx. one charge each workday.

billsmithaustin 8y ago

“Lime recently indicated their latest scooters have an average lifespan of 4 months.” I wonder what happens to the scooter after that. Landfill? Recycle?

jv22222 8y ago

It would be cool if these things helped cities make streets safer for all cyclists and small vehicles. I can imagine that VC's won't like articles like this and that may have a knock on effect of making cities better in the long term. https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/09/24/e-scooter-deaths-underscore-the-urgent-need-for-safer-streets/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/09/24/e-scooter-deaths-unde...

JohnWilcox 8y ago

And with "socialized medicine" EVERYONE gets to pay for the massive increase of major injuries due to scooter accidents.

wavefunction 8y ago

They're a menace to society given the un-insured nature of their services. A local journalist had some scooter doofus run into her vehicle badly enough to damage the ability to open the driver's side door, then he turned around and claimed she hit him. So she was facing having a record of striking a pedestrian on her driver's and insurance records and was only saved by footage from a surveillance camera. What a joy!