18 ms·
Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to
by nimbius 8y ago
Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business.
Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center" for municipalities that purchased MRAP combat vehicles for their police departments. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRAP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRAP
We all, especially the veterans I work with, hated this idea. MRAP's are for combat, not police work, and have a dangerous propensity to roll over in city streets or escalate already violent situations. 14 of us sent a signed letter to the owner and senior management detailing our major concerns and heard nothing back for about a month. Then out of the blue we got a call for a meeting with 3-4 very senior managers at a local irish bar.
They paid for dinner and tried to explain how the business would be extremely lucrative. we would all see major bonuses, we could hire more workers, and grow the business faster than just large truck repair. It took 3 very emotional hours, but we eventually talked down a handful of people from making a very wrong decision.
for a week after, we were all sort of stunned that it actually worked at all. Tire cages meant for MRAP tires were cut up and turned into random parts holders, or as new hangers for air lines...one even replaced our mailbox post.
- komali2 8y agoDamn, good for y'all for sticking to your values. How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"?
- tokai 8y ago>How did you argue against the inevitable "if we don't take this contract, dude across the street will"? Collective action. They can hire 14 new guys, but they won't have any to instruct the new employees in their work.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y agoWhile I’d like to try and agree... I think you may be missing a sense of scale and the reality of just how replaceable people are... even magically-gifted google employees.
- dagmx 8y agoThere's always a break even point on where keeping an employee is worth less than letting them go. It truly depends on the company and employee though. For many people that point can be extremely high so they have the power to push for ethical (or not) choices. That power of course multiplied by the number of such people.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y ago> There's always a break even point on where keeping an employee is worth less than letting them go. Not if they are employees that are complaining about doing the job you're paying them to do. Not that I don't agree with them, but in this case, Google Co has decided a route and the employees don't want to do it. I think they may find that they are more replaceable than the down votes implying the opposite are willing to accept.
- maemilius 8y agoReplacing people might be easy, but it's never cheap - even in industries with an abundance of candidates. The real issue with having your work-force leave is three-fold. First, you lose all the accumulated knowledge of your team. Second, you lose the cohesiveness of your team. Thirdly, you have to _pay to get a new team_. All of these things conspire to make all but the lowliest of jobs (think Target Associate) much more painful to replace than it seems. In short, there are lots of hidden costs in recruiting.
- pcdoodle 8y agoGreat point, turn over is expensive.
- 8y ago
- karpodiem 8y agoWow. Great story, thank you for sharing this.
- alangibson 8y agoYou deserve massive credit for striking a blow against this madness. A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I say that fully realizing that not everyone is in the financial position where they can risk a fight with their employer. You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.
- shareometry 8y ago> A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong. I believe this is key. If more folks at more organizations were brave like this and willing to take the risk, a good chunk of the problems our civilization is facing might be greatly improved.
- kiliantics 8y agoWorker's unions helped win the majority of our rights in modern democracies. I wish this fact was more widely appreciated.
- tracker1 8y agoUnions are rarely formed unless conditions are particularly bad. One upon a time in this country, the national guard with machine guns might have been called out to clear a strike/protest. Most people are very happy being ignorant of their surroundings or influence of. The most I've ever done is threaten to quit if a project for the RIAA was accepted by my employer when I was invited into the pre-pitch meeting. It just depends on a specific case.
- kiliantics 8y agoI'm part of a very privileged workforce and our situation, while not great, was a lot better than the average worker. We still managed to form a union. It can be done.
- 8y ago
- kome 8y agoBeautiful and inspiring story.
- misiti3780 8y agoGreat story - random question --- but how did you find out about HN? (I'm just asking because you implied you don't work in software, etc.)
- jgrahamc 8y agoWell, his profile says... "Linux fan".
- misiti3780 8y agoah i missed that. thanks
- docker_up 8y agoThank you. We literally need more people exactly like you in this world. The militarization of the police force is something that started with George W., continued unabated with Obama, and will probably be accelerated under Trump, and it is anti-democracy in my opinion.
- grecy 8y ago> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's very much not bold to do so.
- lostgame 8y ago>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along with the USA's tendency to start senseless[9] wars[10], often ignoring[11] civilian casualites? It seems as though 'make America great again' is almost an open confession that it no longer is, or was. [1] https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-families-separated-parents https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17443198/children-immigrant-fa... [2] https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family-separation-and-zero-tolerance-at-the-border https://www.npr.org/2018/06/19/621065383/what-we-know-family... [3] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ice-raids-separate-midwest-families-20180630-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ice-raids... [4] https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-history https://www.vox.com/2016/7/25/12270880/donald-trump-racism-h... [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administration-corruption-conflicts.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/28/opinion/trump-administrat... [6] https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/108885940/factchecking-donald-trumps-lies-is-easy-as-he-tells-the-same-ones-all-the-time https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/108885940/factcheckin... [7] https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/opinions/trumps-failure-to-fight-climate-change-sachs/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/18/opinions/trumps-failure-to-fi... [8] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/climate-change-denial-republican.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/climate-change-de... [9] http://theindependent.ca/2018/06/01/why-is-the-united-states-always-fighting-a-war-somewhere/ http://theindependent.ca/2018/06/01/why-is-the-united-states... [10] https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/04/is-america-addicted-to-war/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/04/04/is-america-addicted-to-... [11] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the-civilians-killed-in-american-wars/2011/12/05/gIQALCO4eP_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cb5e71599161 https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-we-ignore-the...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- projectramo 8y agoNot to be cynical, but did another company take over that work for them? Did the police get their MRAPs?
- Benjammer 8y agoThis is a problem that my employer faces. We have a strong concept of corporate responsibility, and plenty of opportunity for employee pushback, but we repeatedly see our decisions simply subverted by competitors who don't have any sense of morals and just go where the money is. It becomes a nasty tradeoff where you think about building/doing things that don't feel good, just to maintain a position to have a positive influence on _other_ areas, where a competitor might simply act without morals everywhere. It's not fun to think about these things in a market with bad incentives.
- senderista 8y agoHence regulation.
- refurb 8y agoWait, because your competitors will maintain MRAPs “they have no sense of morals”? Your morals are your own? Why do you insist on imposing them on others?
- Benjammer 8y agoI mean, all I'm trying to say is that most companies are subject to the competition pressure in their market regardless of internal employees' morals, and it becomes hard to justify "standing up for your beliefs" in a business sense that isn't just "shut down the business or change industries," if there are inherent moral issues in the current industry. When I say "have no sense of morals," I'm talking about competitors who were acquired by large PE firms a decade or more ago and do not have any internal discussions about the morals of what their employees are building/maintaining. They operate entirely by asking what clients want and then trying to build what they can of those requests. I'm mostly talking about incentives and market pressures, not "imposing morals on others" or other such emotional nonsense that you are reading into here.
- pcdoodle 8y agoGreat story dude. We can't pretend more people don't think like this. People working in and around corporations can make a difference by talking about it with other people. Thanks for sharing!
- amatecha 8y agoThank you for standing up for what's right... :) If only more individuals & businesses stood up against militarism in our communities!
- Diederich 8y agoThank you for sharing this; the world needs many more people who actually live and act on their ethical boundaries.
- DINKDINK 8y agoThank you for committing yourself to non-aggression.
- ryanmcbride 8y agoThanks for standing up
- Crashbat 8y agoWell done buddy, it's great to hear about people taking a principled stand, especially when money's involved.
- choot 8y agoWow! So basically, someone managed to risk police offier lives with their ill thought out plan and people on HN are applauding them? What should a police crew use against a criminal equipped with high caliber armor piercing guns?
- carapace 8y ago> What should a police crew use against a criminal equipped with high caliber armor piercing guns? The Army?
- dane-pgp 8y agoI wonder how this policy would interact with something like the Posse Comitatus Act. Would it effectively require applying the label "terrorist" or "national security threat" to any criminal who shows they are prepared to use lethal force against a law enforcement officer?
- carapace 8y agoYeah, life isn't "Die Hard", if someone is using "high caliber armor piercing guns" against the local PD, then classifying them as "domestic terrorists" and calling in specialists to deal with them seems appropriate to me. Police have to deal with enough crap that they shouldn't be expected to handle paramilitary situations as well, is what I'm saying. As a counterexample, remember the "Bundy standoff"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff That's the kind of situation where the Posse Comitatus Act means you don't send in the Army. However, if they had shot a bunch of people I'm sure they would have had to face at least the National Guard, eh?
- idontpost 8y agoGun control legislation.
- discordance 8y agoIt's not just about the equipment the police force use, it's also about the training. Given military equipment, the police force will also get military training matching the equipment they get. Military knowledge and tactics should not be used used to police a civilian population. Thank you for standing up to this.
- nerpderp82 8y agoThank You!
- AndyMcConachie 8y agoThe key here is you acted together. Individuals acting alone have very little bargaining power. But once employees start acting together with a single purpose their power gets very difficult to ignore. Whether people believe unions are a good idea or not, the key is to organize into something that allows people to work together and find common ground to address common problems.
- idontpost 8y agoYou are the heroes we need.