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Going to university does not broaden the mind
- themodelplumber 8y agoVocational work got you feeling over-conscientious and under-enterprising? No worries! Your midlife crisis awaits. :-)
- beaner 8y agoOutside of specific academic focus, nearly everyone I know who has graduated a US university thinks basically the same way.
- BurningFrog 8y agoA cynical view is that US universities teaches you the opinions and manners you need to assume your role in the ruling class.
- ralusek 8y agoIt is literally the exact opposite. The ratio of leftist to right professors in university is 12:1, even more pronounced among faculty. 1 out of 5 professors in America identify as Marxist.
- mc32 8y agoWhoa! I used ti lean left and professors tilted left, I hadn’t noticed it was so pronounced. I gotta think they are more idealists than bona fide marxists though; I mean, if they read enough, they must know the drill (they wouldn’t have influence and any countertevolutionary ideas and they are sent off).
- tootahe45 8y agoMarxist, so even more in favor of a ruling class above all.
- andrepd 8y agoI know you're just trying to be snarky, but how does that make any sense?
- lake99 8y agoI guess it's a reference to George Orwell's "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others".
- bongo662 8y agoProbably the idea that instead of class divide by wealth it would be class divide on political hierarchy (which would undoubtly divide on wealth as well)
- manfredo 8y agoIn command economies, someone needs to do the commanding. Unsurprisingly, the revolutionaries that install such systems often choose themselves for that role.
- emmelaich 8y agoYes, the Left is the ruling class. Or the establishment if you like.
- emmelaich 8y agoMaybe a reference to collectivization in Soviet Russia. The peasants did not go willingly.
- xcjones 8y agoAcademia is one of the few professions that do well in communist societies. Also in Western societies, they benefit from the state giving them other people's money. So it's easy and self-serving for an academic to be a socialist.
- fwn 8y ago
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago>1 out of 5 professors in America identify as Marxist. I wonder how they're distributed among the various disciplines.
- repolfx 8y agoHere is a helpful chart that gives this data: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2015/03/the_prevalence_1.html http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2015/03/the_prevalence_1...
- mc32 8y agoI think that’s more SciencesPo which grooms the political/ruling class. It’s too diffuse in the US to say so.
- hnuser355 8y agoHaha, as if the average US university graduate is joining the ruling class
- anonytrary 8y agoHaha, as if the average member of the ruling class didn't graduate from university.
- nineteen999 8y agoAs a counterexample, Gina Rinehart who is Australia's wealthiest woman and number 7 worldwide, never graduated. So there are exceptions, but I get that it is not the norm.
- anonytrary 8y ago> average member
- nineteen999 8y ago> but I get that it is not the norm. And most available evidence suggests she did not get there through high intelligence, in lieu of a university education, but rather, complete and utter greed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDAwGqlIp7E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDAwGqlIp7E
- anonytrary 8y agoAs such, it is not a counterexample! Edit: you keep editing your comments, but I was replying to the self-quote, which, at the time was your entire comment.
- nineteen999 8y agoSure, bad choice of words on my part. I'm pointing out, perhaps badly, that there are other attributes other than intelligence & education that can get someone there, eg. luck, greed, being a sociopath etc.
- mycall 8y agoI prefer that US universities teach you have to learn. What you learn doesn't really matter.
- scarface74 8y agoUntil they try to get that first job out of college...
- yardie 8y agoAh yes, the infamous “entry level” position that requires 3 years experience of Java|C++|C#. My first entry level job required C# knowledge. So I went to the nearest Barnes and Nobles and read the Microsoft guide cover to cover. I was not a C# major in uni but being able to study, abstract, and internalize concepts was something I did learn.
- scarface74 8y agoYes it sucks from both ends. Companies aren’t willing to invest in teaching employees because they know as soon as they do, the employee will leave for greener pastures and the employee can’t get experience without a job or a job without experience. The usual retort is why not bring someone in as a junior, train them, and give them a raise to market rates? But then you’ve invested x amount of dollars on someone and y amount of time to bring them up to speed when you can find someone who already has the skill you need and they can hit the ground running.
- yardie 8y agoBut the whole point of entry-level positions is you get someone inexperienced at below market rates. What they are really aiming at is getting someone experienced but desperate enough to take an underpaid position. Then hope they don't leave for a better paying job elsewhere.
- scarface74 8y ago
- all2 8y agoMost people I know (I'm in university) can recite facts rather easily, they understand the theory and practice relatively well. What they seem to lack (what most people I meet seem to lack) is questions and a questioning mind.
- chasing 8y agoWow, that’s the polar opposite of my experience (the “lacking a questioning mind” bit). Maybe you’re in the wrong program or studying a major that doesn’t fit your intellectual needs? (Added later...) I don’t know what you’re studying. And I know philosophy and fine arts programs get shat on sometimes, but one thing those subjects allow (when taught properly) is a very, very deep questioning and thoughtfulness towards many things. In my experience, anyway.
- all2 8y agoI was in Engineering, then Applied Math, now in computer science. I don't do well in university style math classes. It takes me a long time working through something to understand what is happening (and why - the why of a thing is one of the first questions I ask when I'm learning something new). It takes me about twice as long to learn a math concept as my peers (or so it seems). But I'm typically the first to speak up during a lecture.
- godelmachine 8y ago>>It takes me about twice as long to learn a math concept as my peers (or so it seems). But I'm typically the first to speak up during a lecture. This is actually an excellent habit, and you should nurture it as much as you can. It looks like you have done a careful SWOT analysis, and thats the way to go.
- chasing 8y agoAsk your professor questions, even if it feels weird to you. Go deep! Good professors and people truly interested in their fields of study will want to get into the nitty gritty with you — oftentimes the reason they can’t in class is more practical than anything: Lack of time, presumption of disinterest from students, etc. I have taught classes at universities and I’m always super-excited when students stick around wanting to talk more after class. It’s a sign that you’ve connected. Maybe take a good literature or philosophy class if your university offers. They won’t help you understand CS (most likely — although some weird parallels can crop up), but they’ll expand your mind. If you let them!
- shoo 8y agoJeff Schmidt's book "Disciplined Minds" is a great read about this kind of thing -- http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/ Here's some discussion from a review of Disciplined Minds by Brian Martin: > Jeff Schmidt provides an answer in his book Disciplined Minds: professionals, including teachers, are selected and molded to have politically and intellectually subordinate attitudes, thereby making their creative energies available to the system. In short, "professional education and employment push people to accept a role in which they do not make a significant difference, a politically subordinate role." (p. 2). > The first step in Schmidt’s argument is the claim that professionals - including police, doctors, lawyers, teachers and many others - think less independently than nonprofessionals. He cites opinion polls taken during the Vietnam war showing that support for the war was greater among those with more higher education. > Schmidt argues that what really makes an individual a professional is not technical knowledge, but rather "ideological discipline." > A key to creating docile professionals is professional training. Through their training, budding professionals learn to orient their intellectual effort to tasks assigned to them. Schmidt has a wonderful expression for this: "assignable curiosity." Children are naturally curious about all sorts of things. Along the road to becoming a professional, they learn how to orient this curiosity to tasks assigned by others. https://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/pubs/01BRrt.html https://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/pubs/01BRrt.html The journalist Lyn Gerry read and recorded most of the chapters in the book, they can be listened to here: https://www.unwelcomeguests.net/Disciplined_Minds https://www.unwelcomeguests.net/Disciplined_Minds
- yters 8y ago> He cites opinion polls taken during the Vietnam war showing that support for the war was greater among those with more higher education. If support for the war was lower among the less education, does this mean the less educated do not think as independently?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- nyolfen 8y ago> He cites opinion polls taken during the Vietnam war showing that support for the war was greater among those with more higher education. ie, people whose peers and children were less likely to be drafted.
- heyitsguay 8y agoThere is a huge diversity of thought in university graduates. The extreme rightward shift in conservative mindset in the US over the past two decades means that everybody left of "maybe owning slaves is ok" gets uniformly labeled "liberal" or "leftist" in 2018.
- nixpulvis 8y agoI'm a hard liberal, but these days I feel like a conservative. I'm sure I too have been changing in ways, but it's true the buckets have gotten too large and far apart.
- ikeboy 8y agoUnless your definition of slaves includes all workers under capitalist regimes, this is wrong. Plenty of conservatives don't think slavery is acceptable.
- WalterBright 8y agoI've never run into anyone that did.
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoI think you just did...
- maxxxxx 8y agoI have talked to some libertarians that once you push them a little seem to view slavery as a lesser evil than taxes or environmental regulations.
- WalterBright 8y agoBut they're still thinking of it as evil. Slavery is completely anti-ethical to libertarianism.
- 8y ago
- Iv 8y agoUS universities seem terrible. Mine opened me to a variety of specialties, opinions, skills, cultural movements that I had never seen before. This was my first contact with unions, entrepreneurs, metalheads, gay community, ultra-christians, drug users, researchers.
- diogenescynic 8y agoIt’s narrow minded to generalize that massive groups of people think “basically” the same way... I can honestly say that when I went to college, there were definitely people who had a multitude of ideas and opinions—there was no groupthink or even a super majority consensus of opinion. Maybe you went to the wrong school and have a narrow social circle if all the people you know think the same way.
- eBombzor 8y agoPaywall :( Seems like an opinion piece from the title, anyone care to share a summary? edit nvm guess its only a paywall on mobile
- jakegarelick 8y agoClick the “web” link under the title.
- RidingPegasus 8y agoNot opinion, it's a writeup of a German study. https://outline.com/YdvJu4 https://outline.com/YdvJu4
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- neonate 8y agohttp://archive.is/pAnYr http://archive.is/pAnYr
- wallace_f 8y agoIn short, the study suggests university does not change personality or attitudes; however while vocational training increases conscientiousness, it decreases investigative or enterprising traits. Would it be wrong to say it sounds like a lot of people doing vocational training end up just wanting to do a good job and get on with enjoying their lives? Is that a title more in-line with the article, and not even surprising? As for broadening the mind, I believe there is an absolute derth in teaching/testing for those kinds of critical thinking skills (willingness or ability to question ones own assumptions or biases).
- ams6110 8y ago> willingness or ability to question ones own assumptions or biases This is alternately discouraged or demanded in today's educational institutions, depending on whether your current assumptions and biases are the correct ones.
- lucidone 8y agoTangential, but from my experience, "critical thinking" meant regurgitating whatever views the professor espoused. I had a lot of views produced by the bubble of my campus. Now out in the world, I wouldn't want to hang out with myself from that time.
- chasing 8y agoAs with many things, probably has a ton to do with the specific student. University broadened my mind incredibly and I’m quite thankful for it. But then, I tended towards multidisciplinary programs with subjects I didn’t naturally excel at. And I had good professors and smart peers.
- godelmachine 8y agoTaking up those subjects which make you uncomfortable is very important. And of course, multidisciplinary.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y agoI dropped out - I’m a fairly successful and happy computer engineer. Generally anti-college in terms of 13th grade, but I agree this depends entirely on the student. I was bored to tears with the entry computer science, but really liked anthropology and geolgogy. Seems like they were mind-broadening.
- chasing 8y agoI consider myself a successful software developer who enjoys his work. I took one single programming class as an undergrad and it sucked. Everything else was literature, philosophy, art, with some science mixed in when I could. I think that decision served me well. It also made me less appealing to people hiring for boring positions and much more appealing to those trying to find smart weirdos who thought differently. My first real college programming job was with people who specifically did not hire out of the CS department. It was awesome!
- mroche 8y ago> My first real college programming job was with people who specifically did not hire out of the CS department. Not going to lie, that sounds incredibly counter-intuitive. However, as long as the people have the right skills or mindset I don’t see the issue. There may be a lacking in deeper underlying systems knowledge, though.
- cm2012 8y agoI wish this was more common knowledge.
- tmh88j 8y agoIs going to university to "broaden the mind" a common sentiment? Maybe that's a European thing, because the mindset in the US is that college is a step towards a good career, which unfortunately doesn't seem to hold as much weight these days for a growing number of fields.
- simonsarris 8y ago> Maybe that's a European thing, because the mindset in the US is that college is a step towards a good career, Really? In the USA, every single time I get into a discussion of the pros and cons of college with friends (or this week family) it starts out "they need to in order to get a good job!" and end with "well... how are they going to become a more well rounded person if they don't go?" It's like clockwork, the unavoidable striking of midnight when they toss the ROI premise for the broaden the mind premise.
- whorleater 8y agoThis article literally says that while going to university does not make you a more well-rounded person (if we use "well-rounded" as a proxy for "broadened mind"), working makes you a less well-rounded person.
- tmh88j 8y ago>it starts out "they need to in order to get a good job!" and end with "well... how are they going to become a more well rounded person if they don't go?" I've honestly never heard anyone say that outside of movies and tv. Maybe I don't come from a posh enough of a background that "becoming well rounded" is an option of equal consideration alongside earning a sustainable income. Sure, they're not always mutually exclusive, but let's be real; most people are going to college nowadays for a better career, not to be a renaissance man/woman. I would consider myself to be well positioned now after going to college for engineering and having almost a decade of work experience under my belt, but even the thought of going back to college for a subject I'm passionate about is just a pipe dream. It's expensive, time consuming and I'll probably have no pragmatic use for what I learn without a career change. I barely had enough time while in undergrad to focus on the core material, let alone add on an extra 25% workload to become "well rounded". Sure, I had to take some "intro to _______" courses, but I hardly consider that any sort of in depth knowledge. Is that what people consider a well rounded college experience? If so, I disagree.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rexarex 8y agoI took a inter-disciplinary arts degree and combined with a semester abroad it completely changed the way I looked at stuff. Maybe if studied engineering it would be different.
- 2bitencryption 8y agoI disagree with this in my own case. At my university, I was bombarded by so many different beliefs and worldviews that it forced me to reevaluate my own. My values didn't change much, but I certainly become more accepting of differences.
- bytematic 8y agoYa, I bet a lot of people who grew up in cities don't have the same experience.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- iandev 8y agoThe title is a bit sensational. The bigger picture is in the first paragraph. > However, it was not the case that university broadened minds. Rather, work seemed to narrow them. Basically, going to university doesn't make your mind broader, but not going to university does result in a narrower mind.
- shanghaiaway 8y agoWrong. You're misreading
- iandev 8y ago> those who had chosen the vocational route showed marked drops in interest in tasks that are investigative and enterprising in nature. Am I incorrect to think that this is narrowing of the vocational route?
- unknownkadath 8y agoI would advise reading the paper, if possible. It seems that this is the Economist's hot take from reading a few of the figures rather than the authors' conclusions.
- sammosummo 8y agoGrew up in a medium sized mostly working-class town in Northern England. My whole childhood I felt like an outsider, nobody cared about the things I cared about, whenever I spoke it was met with complete silence or indifference. I thought there was something wrong with me at a fundamental level, perhaps autism. First day at uni (19 yo) I stayed in my room most of the night, terrified. Finally summoned up the courage and socialised. Week later I stepped out of my room into the communal kitchen. A conversation was going on and someone asked my opinion. It suddenly occurred to me that that had never happened to me before entire life. I wasn’t some weirdo everyone was scared of or didn’t understand. Normal person, normal interests; just different to the tiny society I gre up in. Now married 35 living in Boston at junior faculty at Harvard Medical School, that tiny moment in the dorm kitchen shaped my whole life for the better, and university is the reason.
- dingaling 8y ago> and university is the reason. But not the sole mechanism by which you could have gained that experience. Prior to uni I spent time drifting around youth hostels in western Europe. That was affordable even for someone from a Belfast council estate. I bunked with people from literally all around the World and learned more about humanity than I had done in 18/years prior. Within weeks of starting a job I was sent to Illinois for three months and again had an eye-opening in blue-collar American culture. The Simpsons suddenly made sense. In contrast for me uni was boring, partisan and segregated. It even had an International Students' Centre where they could congregate away from the locals, because their parents were paying huge fees whilst we were there on meagre Giro grant cheques. I suppose I learned about capitalism there. I'm keener for my kids to do six years in the military before even thinking of uni.
- bhengaij 8y agoBroadening the mind, no- opposite effect. It's a very group think environment. You do get better problem solving skills though and a new approach to looking at problems.
- yosito 8y agoFor those interested in broadening their minds, I highly recommend living in a country other than the one you were born in for at least a year. Preferably one with a different language than your first language. It's pretty hard to do that while still hanging on to your narrow mindset. I work remotely and I've had the privilege of being able to live internationally since 2012. But even if you don't work remotely there are ways to have a similar experience. I once volunteered for a school in a foreign country for two years. Volunteer opportunities are abundant. And if you can't live internationally for one reason or another, learning another language and joining language meetup groups is a great way to connect with people and ideas that will expand your mind. And reading books from authors outside of the places you're familiar with is also a great way to expand your mind by exposing yourself to new ideas.
- andrepd 8y ago"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." Mark Twain
- iwiririwo 8y agoI'm sure that Mark Twain didn't have today's tourists in mind, who are rushing from tourist attraction to tourist attraction, calling themselves "traveller" instead of "tourist". To get from tourist to traveller, just add 8000km to any flight taken. I'm very glad that OP included "at least a year".
- mycall 8y agoThat's neo-traveller, a different breed than the past. They do ruin the concept for others, as profit now leads enlightenment and disentanglement.
- et-al 8y agoAll the distance in the world means nothing if a traveler is still mentally tied to their home country. There's a good number of expats in [country] who hang out at Irish pubs with other expats, bitch about [country], and don't bother learning the language. You have to be willing to unmoor yourself, which I think deep down a lot of people aren't seeking to do.
- unknownkadath 8y agoLink to abstract: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0956797618806298 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09567976188062... At first glance, it seems like the Economist article is drawing broader and more politically charged conclusions than the original authors. On an initial skimming of the whole article in "Psychological Science," I can find no similar sweeping statements about college education anywhere. In fact, the word "broaden" does not appear in the text of the published article at all. Compare the Economist title with the actual article abstract below: ------------------- School or Work? The Choice May Change Your Personality Abstract: According to the social-investment principle, entering new environments is associated with new social roles that influence people’s behaviors. In this study, we examined whether young adults’ personality development is differentially related to their choice of either an academic or a vocational pathway (i.e., entering an academic-track school or beginning vocational training). The personality constructs of interest were Big Five personality traits and vocational-interest orientations. We used a longitudinal study design and propensity-score matching to create comparable groups before they entered one of the pathways and then tested the differences between these groups 6 years later. We expected the vocational pathway to reinforce more mature behavior and curtail investigative interest. Results indicated that choosing the vocational compared with the academic pathway was associated with higher conscientiousness and less interest in investigative, social, and enterprising activities.
- pkaler 8y agoThe researchers in the article compared German university students with German vocational students. Maybe that is the case for those groups. I was born and raised in Northern Canada. I'm ethnically India. University is where I first met a gay person and realized they are regular people just like me. Where I made my first Asian, Black, and Jewish friends. Where I first started reading philosophy and classic literature. Where I first realized that I could start a business myself. I have a degree in computer science but took many liberal arts classes. Maybe university isn't useful to the upper-middle class other than for signalling? ️¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- mushufasa 8y agonice catch. if the article focuses on european higher education, it may not apply to north american systems, which aim for breadth. my understanding is that even in university, european students pick a track before matriculation and keep to it.
- kuerbel 8y agoI'm German. We have a three tiered school system: the lowest one where you go to school for, iirc, 9 years is usually bound for people who are ... more hands on and later do an apprenticeship as a e.g. hairdresser. Middle tier is where you go to school for 10 years and do an apprenticeship as e.g. accounting clerk or IT system specialist. The higher tier is where you get the Abitur. It's mandatory that you have this if you want to go to university, but it takes 13 years to get one. You pick 2 classes that are maybe equivalent to AP classes in us high school. You can also pick the rest of your classes, but they require less time. E.g. mine where math and English. After that you have a choice between two different kinds of universities. One is more traditional, but you pick the subject before hand and maybe you have some classes that you can choose for yourself but usually they have to have something to do with your main subject, e.g. some electrical engineering classes if you study mechanical engineering. Then there is the university of applied sciences, which is a mix between an apprenticeship and university, with a more hands on approach. It's where you would study software engineering instead of computer science. That's the reason our universities are more focused, we cover lots of ground in different topics at school.
- akhilcacharya 8y agoHonestly, I broadened my perspectives more at community college than at my state school, and that was just general education classes.
- jedberg 8y agoUniversity definitely broadened my mind. I grew up in an area that was 99+% white and 50+% Jewish. We literally had “the black family” with twins who were our top track stars. And a few Asian families who hid their Asianness. It was at University that I learned about Asian culture. It was the first time I used chopsticks. It was the first time I drank tea without sugar. It was the first time I ate Chinese food that wasn’t deep fried. It was the first time I had dim sum. I learned to understand people with heavy accents (it was the first time I’d ever met someone for whom English was a second language). It was where I learned the diffence between Chinese (north and south), Vietnamese, Korean, and Japanese people. It was also the first time I ever met someone who was home schooled, someone who a lesbian or pretty much anyone who wasn’t straight, other than the one openly gay kid in high school. It was the first time I learned that making racist and homophobic jokes was not ok. It was the first time I learned the girls can write code. Without college I would probably be a racist and not believe that social programs are necessary.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- TearsInTheRain 8y agoWhy are social programs necessary?
- jedberg 8y agoBecause not everyone is born into the privilege necessary to “pull up their own bootstraps”. In fact it was on college that I learned a lot about libertarianism, and was a strong believer in pure capitolisim. As I’ve aged I’ve realized that it just doesn’t work.
- Aloha 8y agoIt's not privilege, privilege makes it easier, but it's certainly not impossible without it - unless you count things like intelligence and personality to be privilege. That said, a certain subset of the population doesn't have the wherewithal, drive or ability to do it - and for an even smaller, the best in life they can hope for is to perform some sort of manual labor. We mustn't forget about the self selection bias of being smart - we tend to only socialize and know other smart people - meaning, don't fall into the fallacy of assuming you're the median.
- discoball 8y agoIn the formal setting of an educational institution you get to engage your mind in analytical and creative thinking in a variety of subjects and on daily basis. Such a consistent process does broaden the mind, for sure, but maybe not every mind and not under some circumstances. The title comes across as controversial subjectivism for the sake of attracting attention.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- loblollyboy 8y agoBut it’s pretty fuckin fun bro. Seriously tho, although I had to do a lot more growing up after college, it helped me grow up. If I were forced to go pay for stuff instead of having a card with MascotBucks that covered my needs (like now) I might have grown up faster, but I’d do it again
- anontechworker 8y agoComments written like this are why I left reddit.
- scarface74 8y agoOnly the privileged can afford to go to college to “broaden their mind”. Most people go to college to compete in the market and get a job. It’s amazing how much push back I get about computer science degrees should teach marketable skills and people say they weren’t meant to be ”vocational degrees” and you shouldn’t go to college for “job training”. Just the idea that people are suggesting in some of the comments that everyone should be “required to live a year abroad” as part of college is more evidence of the bubble that many HN posters are in. How many middle class[1] families can afford to send their children overseas for a week let alone a year? [1] By middle class I mean the real middle class income of about $60K a year not the Silicon Valley/west coast definition of middle class.
- justinclift 8y agoDon't many of the "go and live abroad" types mostly self fund by getting work in their target countries? eg waiters, fruit picking, or whatever they can get
- zapzupnz 8y agoI used to live in shared apartment where plenty of people were coming and going. Imagine a backpackers, but people lived there for long stretches of time. All the uni students who came for their OEs definitely worked jobs, some out of their comfort zones. Most were in hospo, some doing construction, and the rest fruit picking as you said. If they weren't doing that, they had joined those programmes where you work on a farm in exchange for free board and food. Some were on couch-surfing programmes which weren't too dissimilar.
- nixpulvis 8y agoI feel there's a bit of a strange tension in this argument. Why can't you have both? While I was in classes it wasn't job focused, or at least not directly. I often hear people complain, for example about how they never use anything they learned in college for their programming jobs. I find this impossible to believe. The process of building a binary search tree or proving the pumping lemma are all exercises. Just like anything else being good at things takes practice, college is (or should be) as good of an environment for this as we can create. If you're looking for a solution to the feeling that college doesn't do a good enough job preparing you for the working world, I'd like to at least mention how much of a fan of coop programs I am, and how they can be integrated into the higher education process. People telling you directly that college shouldn't be about job training are feeling a bit nostalgic and idealistic, while holding on to a hint of truth. So I say again, what's stopping the underprivileged student, paying for college with loans and scholarships, from broadening their mind, while getting the skills to pay the bills?
- james_s_tayler 8y agoSure as hell broadened my mind. Getting broader ever since.
- purplezooey 8y agoThe question isn't whether university broadens the mind, but what is the alternative and does it broaden it more.
- qwerty456127 8y agoWhat does?
- mirimir 8y agoI'm not at all surprised that vocational training and work narrows the mind. Many jobs require focusing on required skills. Initially, the goal at university is exploring many options. Maybe that's doesn't involve broadening the mind. But it certainly puts off the narrowing. Once you declare a major, however, and especially in grad school, you're definitely on the narrowing path. Because you're merely human, and need to focus.
- solatic 8y agoAt least from the article, the study seems to be too-small-n and does not control for participants' socioeconomic backgrounds, nor for the environment where participants ended up (i.e. participants with degrees who move to a city after university may be more open-minded than participants without degrees who move to rural villages where less diversity and fewer opportunities exist). Not sure how much stock should be put in these results.
- coleifer 8y agoI wish I had better critical thinking skills when I was in college. I'm an English lit major with a minor in Russian lit. In the years since I've reread a lot of my favorite books, and I see a hell of a lot more than I did then. I think I was too immature, too inexperienced with life, to understand about suffering, joy, or love (and wayyy too self centered). College got me started, though, so I'm grateful for having been exposed to so much great literature, even if my understanding was a bit shallow compared to now.
- erichocean 8y ago> I grew up in an area that was 99+% white and 50+% Jewish. That's logically impossible. You group in an area that was majority Jewish, and minority white.
- Armisael16 8y ago'Jew' is not a race.
- kbenson 8y agoYes it is. It's also probably got an easier claim to that word than 'white' does.
- Valmar 8y ago"Jewish" is a religion. "White" is a skin colour, otherwise categorized as "race", which technically doesn't really exist anyways. All that really exists is a diverse range of genetic differences, however, all humans can 100% interbreed without any issues.
- amaccuish 8y agoI think this is pedantic. By your way of thinking, there is no racism, because we are all one race. The words are used to mean different things, with lots of historical connotations to boot. They are not so narrowly defined in respect to humans. Whilst you're correct biologically, language is a little more nuanced.
- kbenson 8y agoJewish is also an ethnicity. There are even specific subsets of jews that have different health issues.[1] To my understanding, Jew refers to both an ethnic group and a religion, so it can be confusing, but the ethnic group definitely can be referred to as a race (which going by most the common dictionary definitions of race generally includes geographic and ethnic grouping. I looked it up prior to my earlier comment to be sure). It is possible to be non-religious or practice another religion and be ethnically Jewish, and it's possible to be another ethnicity and convert to Judaism. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_genetics_of_Jews
- mettamage 8y agoUniversity in most part didn't broaden my mind when I really think about it. But I was curious what the pinnacle of formal education was, a level that no one else in my family has been able to achieve. I'd say it's partly sham (when I studied business and psychology), partly lived up to its standards (when I studied the most difficult courses in CS). The most mind broadening experience I had was taking one course in Buddhism. I did this outside of my degree, the course doesn't show up on any of my diploma's. That truly was a mind broadening experience. That experience was also unique unfortunately. It was a mixed bag, but ultimately worth it.
- iamben 8y agoUniversity let me grow up. I had three 'safe' years to learn to be a better adult, make some bad decisions (and some good ones), meet new people etc etc. I was a really young 18. Going straight into work would have been a baptism of fire. I'm not sure my degree has helped a whole bunch, but I don't regret the time I was there.
- perseusprime11 8y agoGoing to school, college and a university only conditions your mind to be a mediocre player. In the absence of great teachers, all we do is acquire knowledge through out life and apply it wrongly when time comes.
- jimnotgym 8y agoOpen minds can be broadened by experience. Closed minds stay closed.
- bwrobrts 8y agoHi folks, as one of the co-authors of said paper, I'd like to share some of my thoughts about the write up and the study. First, IMHO the Economist article does not reflect what we reported or tested. We did not test whether university "broadened the mind." There are many ways, as a researcher, that I would test that including some of the ideas expressed here, such as examining changes in ideology, changes in knowledge of different theoretical and knowledge systems. We didn't do that. The closest we came was testing changes in openness to experience. But even that measure is not a good proxy for "broadening the mind." Second, the changes found in the vocational sample aren't necessarily negative. When people decide on what they want to do with their lives, they naturally diminish their interests in alternatives that reflect paths they have chosen against. We've found this pattern in other samples, including college samples and view this as a natural, if not healthy development. Third , while the changes found in the vocational sample may be construed as "different" the other way to view them is that they are the changes that the college sample will eventually experience. They just don't have to because of the opportunities for exploration and not choosing offered by university life. In closing, we appreciate your interest in the study. We have registered our objections about the way the article was written up with the Economist. The entire process was botched in our opinion--in part because of a breakdown of QC at the Economist and in part because we were not as timely in our responses to the writers queries as they needed us to be given their tight deadline.