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As someone intimately familiar with japanese manufacturing (I work as an engine mechanic at an auto repair chain in the midwest) this comes as no surprise to me

As someone intimately familiar with japanese manufacturing (I work as an engine mechanic at an auto repair chain in the midwest) this comes as no surprise to me. remember when you first bought a new car? the manual said an oil change was required after 400-500 miles? thats due to a japanese invention called the self clearancing piston. a certain amount of piston wall is designed to wear off to develop the final piston clearance in the engine block. this cut manufacuring times drastically for some of the most critical components in the engine. Japanese metallurgy is also miles ahead of what US steel is in my opinion. They are more willing to put exotic metal blends in their cars than their american counterparts. For example, a regular sedan from the US might contain a hardened borg warner gearset for all models. The japanese will adjust the transmissions for nearly every model based on what the car or truck is. turbocharged all wheel drive vehicles get 15% more nickel in their gears than their front wheel drive counterparts. This leads to a car with unreal longevity and durability. They do this with motor assemblies too. Its not uncommon to see working sets of motors in japanese cars that are 30 years old where window motors and such would easily have failed in american sedans. potted, brushed high quality motors were a fixture on practically every japanese sedan in the 90s for even boring stuff like mirror adjustment.

jgust 8y ago
I don't know how to word this without sounding condescending, but how did you end up on hacker news given your profession? I get the impression that the majority demographic here is involved with software in some fashion, so seeing someone with a "blue collar" job stuck out to me. I tend to spend my free time tinkering with engines, so my thought is that you may spend your free time tinkering with software? Anyways, glad to see non-software people here to make discussions a bit less homogenous.
- yourapostasy 8y ago
  That perspective was really valuable to me. It confirmed what I had long suspected: lots of Japanese manufacturing somehow still embodies a craftsmanship ethos. This seems lost in the large American brands (some smaller "Made in USA" brands like Norseman for drill bits still seem to embrace this ethos). This ethos is increasingly rare in software as well, and I'm wondering if this is setting up those who have discarded the ethos for a long losing game with technical debt, or if they will be eventually vindicated as having correctly optimized for price over complexity management and quality.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    I think both approaches probably work. The key is being honest about which kind of company you are, and keeping everyone on the same page.
- BJBBB 8y ago
  Sorry, but does sound a bit elitist. Coding has become a somewhat skill set among some blue-collar workers, and have seen some good stuff come from electricians, plumbers, and mechanics. I know many civil, mechanical, chemical, and electrical engineers that write good code to solve important problems. I know few programmers that know anything about circuit design, plumbing, carpentry, etc. But do believe that the programmers that frequent HN are probably more apt to be multi-skilled and a more renaissance-type of person.
  - umichguy 8y ago
    I am a non-CS engineer - have a masters in Auto Systems - programming has always been part of all/most courses I took. Granted, I am probably pretty poor at things like JS and others as I never really used them, but we used a lot of things like MATLAB/ OCTAVE, Python and a few others in our coursework and work life. I have transitioned out of auto sector into consulting side (non-CS) of things, so now use a lot of data analytics and BI tools including Python, Tableau etc.
- forapurpose 8y ago
  How is an engine mechanic more 'blue collar' than a sysadmin or a website 'mechanic'? And a lot of coding could be (and has been) compared to assembly-line work. I think the only difference, in this respect, is that one technology has been around longer and the other is still the cool new thing. Someday, in a forum about whatever the new thing of that moment is, someone will ask the same thing about people who work in IT.
  - jgust 8y ago
    I'm afraid you're in a minority if you consider a sysadmin "blue collar", not to say that will always be the case.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  Not the person you asked, but I was a welder in a shipyard for years, and am a skilled mechanic. I currently work in tech. No one would ever know unless I mention it, because I don't fit the ugly stereotype of tradework being the domain of the crude and uneducated. I used to talk about it more, but I got tired of the condescension. Tech in general is incredibly insular, and nowhere near as open-minded as the field thinks it is, so I just keep quiet unless something like this thread pops up. There are a lot of us like this out there, and we tend to stay silent on the subject for similar reasons. I am happy to talk about engines or APIs. What I really don't like is the assumption that because I know about engines, anything more cerebral must be a hobby, because it would otherwise be beyond me as a profession.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  Another blue collar reporting in. I did an apprenticeship in metal fabrication / welding after high school. I worked in IT briefly more recently but am back in my trade now doing fairly technical job of operating a laser cutter.
- RobLach 8y ago
  Programmer is the factory job of our time.
nihonde 8y ago
Interesting perspective! A good friend of mine is a supplier to Mitsubishi on the MRJ and other projects. I’m not comfortable sharing details but I can say that the excellence in engineering skill in the Nagoya area, with both Mitsubishi and Toyota and others having built on a long tradition of craftsmanship from that area, is very exciting to learn about. Did you know that it basically began with innovations in loom technologies around the turn of the last century?
- stochastician 8y ago
  On that note, the Toyota museum in Nagoya was the most amazing science/technology museum my wife and I have ever been to. We made a specific stop in Nagoya on our honeymoon to see it, and were not disappointed. The first half is an incredible tour of the history of textiles, with hundreds (literally) of working looms at all phases of development, and incredibly knowledgable staff. And that's all before you get to the equally-amazing car part! http://www.tcmit.org/english/ http://www.tcmit.org/english/
umichguy 8y ago
"They do this with motor assemblies too. Its not uncommon to see working sets of motors in japanese cars that are 30 years old where window motors and such would easily have failed in american sedans. potted, brushed high quality motors were a fixture on practically every japanese sedan in the 90s for even boring stuff like mirror adjustment." I think a lot of that "over-engineering" gradually went away towards the 90s and beyond, as cost concerns and other aspects started to bite in. Plus, they also understood that people started to change cars more often than before, so why engineer something for such a long duration? A lot of that initial over-engineering was also because of the pressure on Japanese brands to try and establish themselves in markets like the U.S. and Europe, where there was a general feeling that these "puny" Japanese cars might not last long. In terms of over-engineering (I know, keep using this term), the true pinnacle for me was the first gen Lexus LS400 designed to compete with the Mercedes S-class. Now, that was something else. Funnily enough, they have started lagging U.S. and European companies after the mid-2000s in terms of vehicle technologies like advanced transmissions, wider adoption of turbocharged engines, infotainment etc. /just a few personal thoughts from my years working in the auto industry
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Funnily enough, they have started lagging U.S. and European companies after the mid-2000s in terms of vehicle technologies like advanced transmissions Scotty Kilmer is an almost half-century veteran of the car repair business. (He's become the new Car Talk of 20-teens YouTube.) His position on the automatic transmissions made by most car companies, in the current fleet of used cars, is that they're a bit crappy. As in, you're a bit lucky to get 100k out of most of them trouble free, and you're very lucky to get 200k trouble free. One of the few makers of automatic transmissions that gets it right is Aisin, which is the supplier to Toyota. One way this might change, is the use of computers to operate what's essentially a manual transmission on behalf of the driver. However, even that might fall by the wayside, outside of particular niches, with electric vehicles.
  - umichguy 8y ago
    I was talking about advanced tech like no. of gears, dual clutch (DCTs are essentially manual type trans - quick shifting - Europeans are leaders) etc. There is a difference between durability (the Japanese are good at this) and innovativeness (U.S./EU are good at this) of transmissions. EU/US transmissions are mostly all 8+ gears (now 10) in torque converter type (conventional), EU lead in DCT (dual clutch transmission), Japanese are only just catching up to this. Japanese are of course, market leaders in CVT (continuously variable trans), but these are not that well liked in EU/US markets because of the way they "feel," though getting better.
giardini 8y ago
nimbius says>" ... japanese invention called the self clearancing piston." Never heard of it! What you're describing is commonly known as "break-in" and has been part of auto care from day two until now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-in_%28mechanical_run-in%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-in_%28mechanical_run-in%... I agree that Japanese auto manufacturers use excellent steel and were quicker to put, say, higher-nickel steel into parts. nimbius says> " Its not uncommon to see working sets of motors in japanese cars that are 30 years old where window motors and such would easily have failed in american sedans." Too far: it's uncommon to see a 30-year old Japanese car (built in 1988 or before) that runs at all, much less that has working power windows!
- rasz 8y ago
  >Too far: it's uncommon to see a 30-year old Japanese car (built in 1988 or before) that runs at all, much less that has working power windows! Camry V30s are pretty bulletproof
- e12e 8y ago
  Hm. Always thought Toyota made pretty durable pickups : "Killing a Toyota Part 1 | Top Gear | BBC" : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk
jorblumesea 8y ago
Is it fair to compare US car manufacturing standards to overall US manufacturing standards? The US car industry is notorious for poor engineering standards and quality, largely driven by profit incentives. Yet, we have our own sophisticated manufacturing base. It just doesn't care about cars.
- umichguy 8y ago
  "The US car industry is notorious for poor engineering standards and quality," Engineering standards are * very broadly* similar, worldwide, as auto companies do have to design and sell a vehicle for multiple markets. What was lacking in the U.S. is the actual execution of the build quality. You can engineer something to be really good, but if you don't build it well, there's no point. A very good example of this is the year 2000 Ford Focus. It was winning car of the year/ best quality awards in Europe, while it was noted for having the most amount of recalls in the U.S for a Ford. Broadly the same product with some localized differences, built separately in EU and the U.S. - completely different execution/ build quality.
  - jorblumesea 8y ago
    My overall point was, it seems silly to use one manufacturing sector to make a determination about the entire industry. The US is home to some really cutting edge technology/manufacturing companies.
    - umichguy 8y ago
      Yep. That's a fair point to say.
  - nradov 8y ago
    I'm not convinced that there was a huge difference in Ford Focus build quality between American versus European factories. I experienced both as rental cars and they seemed equivalent. On average European drivers make shorter trips at lower speeds on smoother roads, and they're more forgiving about NVH problems.
nradov 8y ago
Most manufacturers no longer recommend an oil change at 500 miles for their new cars. Japanese brands have also had their share of problems. For example Honda automatic transmissions were notoriously unreliable for several years leading to multiple recalls and class action lawsuits.

jgust 8y ago

I don't know how to word this without sounding condescending, but how did you end up on hacker news given your profession? I get the impression that the majority demographic here is involved with software in some fashion, so seeing someone with a "blue collar" job stuck out to me. I tend to spend my free time tinkering with engines, so my thought is that you may spend your free time tinkering with software? Anyways, glad to see non-software people here to make discussions a bit less homogenous.

yourapostasy 8y ago
That perspective was really valuable to me. It confirmed what I had long suspected: lots of Japanese manufacturing somehow still embodies a craftsmanship ethos. This seems lost in the large American brands (some smaller "Made in USA" brands like Norseman for drill bits still seem to embrace this ethos). This ethos is increasingly rare in software as well, and I'm wondering if this is setting up those who have discarded the ethos for a long losing game with technical debt, or if they will be eventually vindicated as having correctly optimized for price over complexity management and quality.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  I think both approaches probably work. The key is being honest about which kind of company you are, and keeping everyone on the same page.
BJBBB 8y ago
Sorry, but does sound a bit elitist. Coding has become a somewhat skill set among some blue-collar workers, and have seen some good stuff come from electricians, plumbers, and mechanics. I know many civil, mechanical, chemical, and electrical engineers that write good code to solve important problems. I know few programmers that know anything about circuit design, plumbing, carpentry, etc. But do believe that the programmers that frequent HN are probably more apt to be multi-skilled and a more renaissance-type of person.
- umichguy 8y ago
  I am a non-CS engineer - have a masters in Auto Systems - programming has always been part of all/most courses I took. Granted, I am probably pretty poor at things like JS and others as I never really used them, but we used a lot of things like MATLAB/ OCTAVE, Python and a few others in our coursework and work life. I have transitioned out of auto sector into consulting side (non-CS) of things, so now use a lot of data analytics and BI tools including Python, Tableau etc.
forapurpose 8y ago
How is an engine mechanic more 'blue collar' than a sysadmin or a website 'mechanic'? And a lot of coding could be (and has been) compared to assembly-line work. I think the only difference, in this respect, is that one technology has been around longer and the other is still the cool new thing. Someday, in a forum about whatever the new thing of that moment is, someone will ask the same thing about people who work in IT.
- jgust 8y ago
  I'm afraid you're in a minority if you consider a sysadmin "blue collar", not to say that will always be the case.
Baeocystin 8y ago
Not the person you asked, but I was a welder in a shipyard for years, and am a skilled mechanic. I currently work in tech. No one would ever know unless I mention it, because I don't fit the ugly stereotype of tradework being the domain of the crude and uneducated. I used to talk about it more, but I got tired of the condescension. Tech in general is incredibly insular, and nowhere near as open-minded as the field thinks it is, so I just keep quiet unless something like this thread pops up. There are a lot of us like this out there, and we tend to stay silent on the subject for similar reasons. I am happy to talk about engines or APIs. What I really don't like is the assumption that because I know about engines, anything more cerebral must be a hobby, because it would otherwise be beyond me as a profession.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
Another blue collar reporting in. I did an apprenticeship in metal fabrication / welding after high school. I worked in IT briefly more recently but am back in my trade now doing fairly technical job of operating a laser cutter.
RobLach 8y ago
Programmer is the factory job of our time.

nihonde 8y ago

Interesting perspective! A good friend of mine is a supplier to Mitsubishi on the MRJ and other projects. I’m not comfortable sharing details but I can say that the excellence in engineering skill in the Nagoya area, with both Mitsubishi and Toyota and others having built on a long tradition of craftsmanship from that area, is very exciting to learn about. Did you know that it basically began with innovations in loom technologies around the turn of the last century?

stochastician 8y ago
On that note, the Toyota museum in Nagoya was the most amazing science/technology museum my wife and I have ever been to. We made a specific stop in Nagoya on our honeymoon to see it, and were not disappointed. The first half is an incredible tour of the history of textiles, with hundreds (literally) of working looms at all phases of development, and incredibly knowledgable staff. And that's all before you get to the equally-amazing car part! http://www.tcmit.org/english/ http://www.tcmit.org/english/

umichguy 8y ago

"They do this with motor assemblies too. Its not uncommon to see working sets of motors in japanese cars that are 30 years old where window motors and such would easily have failed in american sedans. potted, brushed high quality motors were a fixture on practically every japanese sedan in the 90s for even boring stuff like mirror adjustment." I think a lot of that "over-engineering" gradually went away towards the 90s and beyond, as cost concerns and other aspects started to bite in. Plus, they also understood that people started to change cars more often than before, so why engineer something for such a long duration? A lot of that initial over-engineering was also because of the pressure on Japanese brands to try and establish themselves in markets like the U.S. and Europe, where there was a general feeling that these "puny" Japanese cars might not last long. In terms of over-engineering (I know, keep using this term), the true pinnacle for me was the first gen Lexus LS400 designed to compete with the Mercedes S-class. Now, that was something else. Funnily enough, they have started lagging U.S. and European companies after the mid-2000s in terms of vehicle technologies like advanced transmissions, wider adoption of turbocharged engines, infotainment etc. /just a few personal thoughts from my years working in the auto industry

stcredzero 8y ago
Funnily enough, they have started lagging U.S. and European companies after the mid-2000s in terms of vehicle technologies like advanced transmissions Scotty Kilmer is an almost half-century veteran of the car repair business. (He's become the new Car Talk of 20-teens YouTube.) His position on the automatic transmissions made by most car companies, in the current fleet of used cars, is that they're a bit crappy. As in, you're a bit lucky to get 100k out of most of them trouble free, and you're very lucky to get 200k trouble free. One of the few makers of automatic transmissions that gets it right is Aisin, which is the supplier to Toyota. One way this might change, is the use of computers to operate what's essentially a manual transmission on behalf of the driver. However, even that might fall by the wayside, outside of particular niches, with electric vehicles.
- umichguy 8y ago
  I was talking about advanced tech like no. of gears, dual clutch (DCTs are essentially manual type trans - quick shifting - Europeans are leaders) etc. There is a difference between durability (the Japanese are good at this) and innovativeness (U.S./EU are good at this) of transmissions. EU/US transmissions are mostly all 8+ gears (now 10) in torque converter type (conventional), EU lead in DCT (dual clutch transmission), Japanese are only just catching up to this. Japanese are of course, market leaders in CVT (continuously variable trans), but these are not that well liked in EU/US markets because of the way they "feel," though getting better.

giardini 8y ago

nimbius says>" ... japanese invention called the self clearancing piston." Never heard of it! What you're describing is commonly known as "break-in" and has been part of auto care from day two until now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-in_%28mechanical_run-in%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break-in_%28mechanical_run-in%... I agree that Japanese auto manufacturers use excellent steel and were quicker to put, say, higher-nickel steel into parts. nimbius says> " Its not uncommon to see working sets of motors in japanese cars that are 30 years old where window motors and such would easily have failed in american sedans." Too far: it's uncommon to see a 30-year old Japanese car (built in 1988 or before) that runs at all, much less that has working power windows!

rasz 8y ago
>Too far: it's uncommon to see a 30-year old Japanese car (built in 1988 or before) that runs at all, much less that has working power windows! Camry V30s are pretty bulletproof
e12e 8y ago
Hm. Always thought Toyota made pretty durable pickups : "Killing a Toyota Part 1 | Top Gear | BBC" : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWKz7Cthkk

jorblumesea 8y ago

Is it fair to compare US car manufacturing standards to overall US manufacturing standards? The US car industry is notorious for poor engineering standards and quality, largely driven by profit incentives. Yet, we have our own sophisticated manufacturing base. It just doesn't care about cars.

umichguy 8y ago
"The US car industry is notorious for poor engineering standards and quality," Engineering standards are * very broadly* similar, worldwide, as auto companies do have to design and sell a vehicle for multiple markets. What was lacking in the U.S. is the actual execution of the build quality. You can engineer something to be really good, but if you don't build it well, there's no point. A very good example of this is the year 2000 Ford Focus. It was winning car of the year/ best quality awards in Europe, while it was noted for having the most amount of recalls in the U.S for a Ford. Broadly the same product with some localized differences, built separately in EU and the U.S. - completely different execution/ build quality.
- jorblumesea 8y ago
  My overall point was, it seems silly to use one manufacturing sector to make a determination about the entire industry. The US is home to some really cutting edge technology/manufacturing companies.
  - umichguy 8y ago
    Yep. That's a fair point to say.
- nradov 8y ago
  I'm not convinced that there was a huge difference in Ford Focus build quality between American versus European factories. I experienced both as rental cars and they seemed equivalent. On average European drivers make shorter trips at lower speeds on smoother roads, and they're more forgiving about NVH problems.

nradov 8y ago

Most manufacturers no longer recommend an oil change at 500 miles for their new cars. Japanese brands have also had their share of problems. For example Honda automatic transmissions were notoriously unreliable for several years leading to multiple recalls and class action lawsuits.