17 ms·

Chrome OS: Ready for Web Development [video]

211 points by espeed 8y ago

azangru 8y ago
Interesting. Any advantage of using Chrome OS for Web development compared to just any plain Linux distro (e.g. Ubuntu)? Or, even more interesting, compared to MacOS? Because from the video, it feels as if Crostini is a second-class citizen on Chrome OS (all that talk about Linux in a container). Why choose Chrome OS at all?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- pkulak 8y ago
  Chrome OS has a better Window manager, better monitor support, better polish in general as a Desktop. Compared to MacOS, I'd say probably just cost.
- mav3rick 8y ago
  Crostini is a VM solution (the container is in a VM). It's by no means a second class citizen. The Files app for instance shows Linux apps along side your Chrome OS apps. Other integration pieces are in the works. Why choose Chrome OS? It's the only mainstream OS with security at it's forefront and 6 week release cycles. Also, the battery life is amazing and there are a range of devices from low end to the higher end pixelbook. (some of the low end ones may not get Crostini yet). If you want a nice travel device you can get a low end Chromebook. If you want a no hassle internet solution you can get a cheapo Chromebook for your folks. Now if you want a Dev environment you can get a higher end Chromebook as well.
  - dman 8y ago
    Support window for older devices is questionable. I own a Generation 1 Pixelbook and it has stopped receiving updates (including security updates). Dropping security updates after a couple of years in fact is worse than other operating systems. Am unsure if users are alerted that their devices will not be updated anymore. Disclaimer: Views expressed are my own and do not represent my employer.
    - mav3rick 8y ago
      Chromebooks have a 5 year support policy. It's not a couple of years.
      - dman 8y ago
        That is worse than other alternatives - PCs and Mac machines.
        stickfigure 8y ago
        Not if you measure in $/yr of service. Also... you've got to treat a laptop pretty gingerly to have one last more than 5 years. Mine are in pretty rough shape by then.
        dman 8y ago
        On the price front - https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-3000/spd/inspiron-11-3180-laptop https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-300... - that is a windows laptop for $180. Do you think a chromebook will have better $/year than that? On the durability front - I guess you dont use thinkpads :)
        kbutler 8y ago
        I picked up one of those for Black Friday last year. Nice little machine, but the 32GB drive is not enough for Windows - Windows update failed within 6 months because of disk full - even with no user data. Way too much hassle I ended up putting Linux on it - faster and could keep it updated. But still quite a bit of hassle. It's sitting in a drawer now. But my old Samsung arm Chromebook XE303C12 still gets used. I do miss the more complete keyboard on the Inspiron, though.
        mav3rick 8y ago
        Good luck with Windows on 32 GB.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  After watching this session and having seen the focus on making Android apps better citizens shown at Google IO and Android Developer Summit, I got this gut feeling that Chrome OS might actually be where Google is heading to, and not Fuchsia. I don't envision they will keep three development teams doing OSes for the same hardware form factors. Now regarding ChromeOS vs plain GNU/Linux, macOS or Windows, I don't see a value, specifically given the prices of Chromebooks able to have Crostini enabled.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    Any or almost any recent Intel based Chromebook with recent kernel does crostini.
  - sseth 8y ago
    Or it may be that Chrome OS runs on fuchsia, and the 2nd linux kernel runs side by side for Crostini. But even if it did, this is at least a couple of years away, I think.
- zaxcellent 8y ago
  (I'm crostini developer) Chrome OS has some natural advantages as an OS e.g. it's always updated and secure, device drivers just work. Chrome OS is also the only desktop OS with Android support maintained by Google. Because Crostini uses Linux containers, more Linux programs can be used in development than MacOS, and any linux distribution that runs under LXD can be used. Chromebooks can also be found in certain places more commonly than macbooks, e.g. at schools or as part of a company's fleet of hardware.
  - bhhaskin 8y ago
    That's all well and good, but doesn't answer the question. Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? My Ubuntu instillation is also always updated and secure. Device drivers also just work. The android support sounds great for android development, not web development.
    - ChristianBundy 8y ago
      > Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? You shouldn't. It's in Google's best interest to get people to use their products. It's in your best interest to avoid Google whenever you can.
      - azangru 8y ago
        :-) I love this answer
      - sridca 8y ago
        I see that ditching Google has become a popular past-time here in HN, however avoiding Google is surely not even close to my best interest.
      - Latteland 8y ago
        So you think there is some special Google spying of what you type in bash in chromeos? Ain't happening
  - 8y ago
- skybrian 8y ago
  Didn't watch the video, but partially this is interesting due to cheap hardware. There are a wide variety of Chromebooks available. Also, in a way, running Linux as a "second class citizen" seems like an interesting way to do it since you could experiment more while knowing you'll always have a browser available. Maybe ask the opposite question: what's the advantage of running Linux outside a container, versus inside?
- microcolonel 8y ago
  Containers are fairly lightweight abstractions on Linux, there is effectively no runtime cost. I use a Chromebook as my mobile work machine (I use full desktop Linux on my workstation at home) because it is disposable, low-risk, and easy to wipe. It takes about 20 seconds for me to destroy all the data on the machine and lend it to somebody with a great deal of confidence, and the Chrome OS part synchronizes on its own. I use Syncthing to sync my mobile desktop Linux configs and a handful of other things. So between those two I can set up any old random Chromebook to work as a workstation in a matter of minutes. If I have a good internet connection, chrome remote desktop makes a good interim solution if I can't wait for Crostini to install. Generally I do most of my productive work in desktop Linux, but Chromebooks are also good consumer machines. The mid to low tier ones are totally usable, have great battery life, and can be bought easily in any developed country except China. The Chromium team has a great track record for security, and having (in a very small way) worked with their security folks, I can tell you that they take the business and community of improving and maintaining Chrome's security very seriously. If you are using an unmodified Chromebook with the most recent stable release of Chrome OS, and not in dev mode, then you can be reasonably sure that it's going to reliably carry out its promise of security.
- rb808 8y ago
  Cheap, light, low powered/long battery life.
- staticassertion 8y ago
  I use my Pixelbook for development when I travel. * I didn't have to set it up, install an OS, or anything. It was trivial to get Linux working (one click - hard to beat that) and I can use intellij and all the other stuff I'm used to. * I get Android Apps, which is actually pretty neat - some good video players with touch screen support, for example. A fair number of games work, which is cool. * Touch screen in general is actually awesome, maybe less for development but I find myself touching my screens when I walk away from my Chromebook and go to another computer. I never thought I'd enjoy a touch screen at all and now I want every future device I buy to have one. * Safer than most systems. My dev environment is sequestered to a container, everything else stays in a sandboxed browser - my workflow on my Ubuntu system (main computer) is virtually identical to this already, but ChromeOS is designed for it. Biggest problem is I compile my Rust programs in a docker container in the Linux environment and it brings my computer to a crawl. I can't develop or watch TV while compiling Rust.
- rifung 8y ago
  Disclaimer I work at Google My own personal reason is that I have never had an ideal experience running Linux on laptops. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tinkering and it was fun when I was in school, but nowadays I don't have much time so if I want to develop something I don't want my time to be spent fixing technical difficulties. With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. I also personally really like Chrome OS for it's simplicity and speed but of course you could say I'm biased. Indeed I like it so much I transferred to work on Chrome OS a couple months ago. Compared with OS X.. that really just depends on your preference. I have nothing bad to say about it and enjoyed using my MBP when I had one. I just like having a really lightweight OS but again that's really subjective and for many people the right answer is OS X! I'm just happy we have the choices now.
  - type0 8y ago
    > With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. Has not been my experience with either of these three. There are plenty of Linux distros that are miles more stable.
    - rifung 8y ago
      That's fair I should have prefaced by saying I have only used the Pixelbook and my experience on Linux is limited to Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, Mint, and Slack. I've only really used a Thinkpad and MBP for the laptops so of course your experience may differ depending on your hardware. Also when I said things work I didn't mean stability/crashes which I admit do happen. I was referring to hardware (wifi) not working which in my opinion is much more annoying.
    - azangru 8y ago
      Yep, I've heard so many people complain about Windows subsystem for Linux that I am terrified of even touching Windows. It's been mostly a smooth ride on MacOS for me, but there were some minor quirks that I encountered on MacOS that were not even an issue on my Linux machine (an example most vivid in my mind is how the default ssh client broke on High Sierra: https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolve-hostname-high-sierra https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolv... or how Docker on MacOS could not resolve ipv6 addresses).
- Latteland 8y ago
  Yes, security and integration. You can have secure crostini shells that can't infect your main os yet share UI and files. You can integrate data by copying files, cut and paste too, but it's light weight like docker. You can at the same time use the secure chromeos.
youeseh 8y ago
Who is this really for? Students who have a cheap Chromebook and couldn't write / test code due to OS restrictions? Developers who have a Chromebook (and love it) and wanted to use it for everything?
- nxc18 8y ago
  I got a chromebook because I needed a device with a keyboard I could use from my couch/patio. I've been extremely impressed - I can use Android apps, and they work well, due to tablet mode support. Being able to have a Linux laptop that just works is really awesome. I think you could make the argument that ChromeBook is just as versatile as Windows now - huge app store (Play), great browser, and a Linux terminal. So I guess its for everyone that Windows is for.
  - Nicksil 8y ago
    >I got a chromebook because I needed a device with a keyboard I could use from my couch/patio. That's a laptop, right? Were you in search of a form factor other than laptop? What about the Chrome Book's form factor was more appealing to you than that of the "standard" laptop? >Being able to have a Linux laptop that just works is really awesome. What Linux distribution were you using that didn't work to your liking? What were the pitfalls and what did Chrome Book do different to mitigate the issues you were having with other versions of Linux?
    - nxc18 8y ago
      It's really cheap and really rugged. I didn't think I'd like the tablet/tent modes, but I actually do find them convenient and do them a lot. Really I needed a device exclusively for light browsing and writing - and what I got was actually more powerful than I realized; they snuck a full laptop into what used to be an internet appliance.
- mav3rick 8y ago
  People who want usability without security being an afterthought.
rb808 8y ago
I'm thinking of getting a Chromebook for dev work, with the view of just using it as a dumb client for terminals and browser to cloud servers. I'm worried I'll buy then wish I bought a proper machine. Anyone thought the same then regretted it?
- mav3rick 8y ago
  My suggestion would be to get a cheap one if you're on the fence. Make sure it supports all the features you want. If it doesn't work out it can be an excellent daily device for any non-dev relatives.
- turtlebits 8y ago
  Before linux support (crostini) yes. Now, for personal use, I've started using my pixelbook more than my Mac/Windows machines.
- overcast 8y ago
  My suggestion right now(from a Mac user), is a Windows 10 machine with the Linux subsystem installed. You'll have an entire Linux environment integrated into Windows, giving you the best of both worlds. Supported software, hardware, and your natural development environment. Honestly, I'm weary of moving anything to Google with their track record of just abandoning projects, and privacy concerns.
  - mav3rick 8y ago
    With all due respect WSL will always be behind Google's implementation. WSL implements a subset of linux syscalls to get compatibility. Crostini's guest OS is a Debian image so there are less compatibility challenges than WSL.
    - overcast 8y ago
      I haven't run into any compatibility problems, and was able to get my environment running identical to the production server. So how does what you said affect my experience? It works without jumping further into Google's uncertain ecosystem. And when I'm not working, I can fire up my Steam library, all on the same machine.
pkulak 8y ago
I'm still waiting on good Docker support. Word is it's close, but I don't know if it's there right now. Really all I need in a dev machine is a Unix + docker + IDE, so this is pretty interesting.
- 0xCMP 8y ago
  If that's what you're waiting for I'd say it's ready. Although you have to run Docker inside the host and I don't think you can run privileged containers (don't have in front of me to test).
- enos_feedler 8y ago
  A patch has been merged to fix an issue that was preventing docker from working. I don't think the patch has made it's way into a proper docker release yet but I am using a custom build and it's been working fine for a month on my pixelbook. I do container development and control a GKE cluster with kubectl as well. More details on the docker patch here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/9jabhq/docker_now_working/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/9jabhq/docker_now...
  - pkulak 8y ago
    Nice, thanks for the info!
zwaps 8y ago
So it does everything that Linux does, but you can also send all your personal data automatically to google. Wow, what a value proposition!
- pkulak 8y ago
  You can send your data to Google with anything.
- idm 8y ago
  I made a separate account for the Chromebook. I don't associate any personal info with this account. Of course, most people will reuse their existing accounts, but it's not strictly required to provide personal details in order to use a Chromebook.
  - mosselman 8y ago
    It still sounds like something I’d not be interested in: having to be so defensive around the os. Apps are already annoying, but if you can’t trust the OS itself, then why bother with it at all?
    - jchw 8y ago
      That's the reality I feel every time I boot into Windows to be honest. I work at Google so I am definitely biased but candidly those OneDrive ads in Explorer pissed me off pretty badly, as does start menu ads, Cortana notifications, automatically installing Candy Crush, and so many other things. You can disable most of that, but then I hear there's still telemetry getting sent back to MSFT even after you disable every tickbox in site. Of course, the obvious solution is to run a good Linux distro or OpenBSD, but frankly it's hard to live with purely just Linux for me. ChromeOS has the advantage of things like near perfect High DPI support.
      - zwaps 8y ago
        For what's it worth, I have been using Linux as a side-OS since pre 2000, and only in the last two years has it become really good. It's now my main driver on all my machines and frankly I have started to prefer it. This has never happened in the ~20 years I have been using Linux and other OS. Linux went from "meh" to just as good pretty recently, imo. Furthermore, this is just a usability consideration. Don't forget that all other OS become more and more closed, more and more about collecting private data, and more and more about proprietary app stores.
0xCMP 8y ago
Been using edge releases on my Pixelbook i7 for a few months. Much of this is pretty baked. I wish USB support was here so I could use my Yubikey 5c to do SSH, but otherwise it's fine. From my experience Docker works fine. VS Code works well. You can install your own Terminal if you want. Note for the demo in the video they ran Chromium inside the VM so localhost would work. Otherwise you need to use the penguin.linux.test domain which was pretty hard to find out about when they made that change. Another thing is you really should default to binding to 0.0.0.0:$PORT because that makes your life easier as well. For those not enjoying MBPs and their keyboards the Pixelbook's keyboard is pretty good. If I had to make a recommendation I'd say that getting a lower -end pixelbook would be a great buy. Not sure my i7 or extra SSD space has really been worth it.
- fhenneke 8y ago
  You can use Secure Shell for SSH with your Yubikey in the meantime: https://chromium.googlesource.com/apps/libapps/+/HEAD/nassh/doc/hardware-keys.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/apps/libapps/+/HEAD/nassh/...
- celkam 8y ago
  Certain ports are bound to localhost from the container for "popular applications" https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/99s3t9/wellknown_ports_are_now_autoforwarded_to_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/99s3t9/wellknown_...
- sridca 8y ago
  > Not sure my i7 or extra SSD space has really been worth it. .. worth it for what purposes, it would depend. I write Haskell and compile that to JavaScript (using GHCJS), so i7 with 16 GB memory (more would be better here) would help.
- Yhippa 8y ago
  > For those not enjoying MBPs and their keyboards the Pixelbook's keyboard is pretty good. I really enjoy the Pixelbook's keyboard. It's definitely better than the MBP's and is sometimes more pleasing to use than my mechanical keyboards (Cherry red/brown switches).
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
resters 8y ago
Ready for web development just as it starts to achieve price parity with a macbook. I'd argue that this is largely a failure of the initial vision of a lightweight OS that can run very well on low cost hardware.
- nbar1 8y ago
  Only the Google Chromebooks are priced high, and still isn't even close to the Macbook. There are many offerings from other company for just a few hundred dollars that run Chrome OS.
  - johnatwork 8y ago
    But those cheap Chromebooks won't run Crostini right?
    - celkam 8y ago
      It depends on the kernel version and the CPU's virtualization support. I have a C101PA that I got before the price hike, and use it for hacking in lisp during my commutes.
- nine_k 8y ago
  It can likely run well on low-cost portable hardware. But the web development tools likely won't run well on it. (You can get plenty of power using a now low-cost box of Xeons from two generations ago. Likely not your use case, though.)
philips 8y ago
Anecdote: I stopped using OSX for primary development about 7 months ago and started using a Pixelbook + Crostini exclusively. Par - Hassle free desktop experience on par with OSX - Password managers, music apps, etc available via Android appstore Advantages - Fast time to productivity because Crostini takes a few clicks, then apt-get everything - Native "File Manager" integration makes it painless to move files to and from VM - Desktop apps in the VM appear in ChromeOS apps menu without hassle of X11.app, SSH forwarding, etc - Android integration to unlock the laptop, etc works great - Hardware built-in FIDO U2F device Disadvantages - ChromeOS 70 still crashes once and awhile inexplicably (weekly) - Android apps can be janky to resize - Multi-display with Android apps sometimes doesn't work Overall I feel more productive on my Pixelbook vs OSX.
- rkeene2 8y ago
  It's real annoying when Chrome crashes (which it does once or twice a week on average) because it restarts all your Android apps as well !
  - kibwen 8y ago
    Flashbacks to Internet Explorer crashes taking out your desktop.
    - moocowtruck 8y ago
      thats the irony here... so much of this thread just reminds of of windows XP
- lgleason 8y ago
  I've been using the Pixelbook i7 16gb/512 SSD as a travel machine for native Android development. Some other con's I've noticed. 1. Multi-monitor support can get a bit flaky when using more than one monitor. 2. While is is pretty speedy, you do run into performance limitations due to it only having a dual core processor. 3. Many Android apps are not as fully featured as their OS-X counterparts. Yes you could use them all in Crostini, but now your going through another virtualization layer, plus the integration is still not fully there. All of that being said, I used to be a crouton user and it is stable enough that I am not longer doing that....though the lack of USB device support is a bummer (and was supported in crouton).
zaxcellent 8y ago
In case you're interested in the technical guts of crostini, I gave a recorded talk to the NYLUG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwrXqDERFm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwrXqDERFm8
idm 8y ago
Happy Chromebook user here. I use the Asus c213 as my daily driver now. I do the heavy lifting on a Linux server. Crostini made it all click for the mobile development environment. VS Code was the last piece of the workflow that I was missing. Now, I've got a rugged laptop with rubberized edges and some water resistance. I take this thing into environments I would never have taken any other laptop. I don't worry about this laptop and I love that.
SniperOwl 8y ago
Did he say 75% off? Can some elaborate the discount?
- benforreal 8y ago
  I was at the Chrome Dev Summit - we got 75% off coupons at registration, so it was advertised as for attendees only. Even so, it wasn't a real coupon code - you go to a site, enter the code, and tell them what app you're working and they get back to you. Not quite sure how "required" that is, but they were required form fields
  - WildGreenLeave 8y ago
    Was that a personal coupon code or a generic one? In other words, can you share it or not? :)
    - dandv 8y ago
      Speaker here. The discount codes were intended for the attendees, are unique, and they can not be redeemed twice. That said, I'd keep an eye for any Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals.
  - machbio 8y ago
    Link to the website?
kbumsik 8y ago
Will it happen to Chromium OS for normal laptops too? As a heavy Linux desktop user this looks quite interesting.
chillydawg 8y ago
So, I assume everything is streamed back to google for ads? Files, clicks, network configs?
chasedehan 8y ago
I once had plans to do dev work on a chromebook. I even installed gallium on one. BUT,the biggest problem for me is the keyboard and missing a bunch of essential keys.
- type0 8y ago
  Not having proper function keys means it's faulty by design for me, or can I remap those Chromebook keys to f keys somehow?
  - dandv 8y ago
    Yes, the top row of keys map to F1 - F10. You can activate them if you hold the Search key while pressing them, or you can have Chrome OS "Treat top-row keys as function keys" (Settings -> Keyboard). Pixelbooks: https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/7504061 https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/7504061 Chrome OS in general: https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1047364 https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1047364
soared 8y ago
If anyone is looking to pick up a chromebook, I maintain an ongoing list of chromebook black friday deals that includes most of the relevant specs (except linux/android support) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L9SM7k-Z6LSsGvdi7doZ4rjTaqXBfjFNkwx5x_GMWo/edit https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L9SM7k-Z6LSsGvdi7do...
- no_protocol 8y ago
  Can you add a column for whether or not these have cellular data capabilities? The HP Chromebook I bought in 2014 has cellular data and if I ever replace it I'll probably want one with the same.
  - swebs 8y ago
    Processor architecture would be helpful as well. Many games and other closed source applications don't work with ARM processors even though they support Linux.
- penglish1 8y ago
  Thank you for this public service!
- threatofrain 8y ago
  I've been anticipating the Acer Chromebook 13 (CB713) but they've been very off on their announced released date with no followup commentary. https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-series/acerchromebook13cb713 https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-series/ac...
- snaky 8y ago
  That's great, but it would be nice to add a column 'could you install other OS on it'.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  Thanks for making that list. I guess there will be more requests but a battery life (real if possible, not factory indications) column would be great.
xaduha 8y ago
I think I'll install Chromium on my old notebook that hasn't died yet (Samsung R40, that old). But if I decide to buy a new one I'd make sure that VFIO works on it, once you cross that bridge there's no reason to go back. And I suspect that Chromebooks don't support VFIO.
chewz 8y ago
I am really happy with ChromeOS + Debian Stretch (via crouton not crostini) running on my Macbook Pro Retina. It has taken away all pains of macOS, the screen estate and keyboard (2015 model) are great. What's not to like? But what I like most is the ability to re-create my working environment on any hardware from USB key in 15 minutes.
- sridca 8y ago
  > what I like most is the ability to re-create my working environment on any hardware from USB key in 15 minutes Could you elaborate on this?
  - chewz 8y ago
    Well, I keep an install of ChromeOS on USB flash drive and I do regular backups [1] of crouton partition with Debian (cli only - 3.4 GB currently in my case). If I do not have my laptop with me I can install ChromeOS on any machine which takes maximum 15 minutes [depending on flash drive and USB speed]. Log in and entire ChromeOS graphical environment (bookmarks, Chrome extensions, ChromeOS apps, Web apps) is re-created automatically by ChromeOS from my Google account. Then re-creating crouton partition with Debian takes another 5 minutes. And I am good to go, because this is exact 1:1 copy of my Debian terminal environment with Vim, mutt, Mail folder, all project folders, npm packages, pip packages, git and everything. On new machine the screen could have different resolution, perhaps I have to login into few webpages in Chrome but it is generally my full environment. I did so in summer when I have not taken my Mac to vacation and also I often move to spare Lenovo laptop if I need to. [1] https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton/wiki/Backups https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton/wiki/Backups
liamcardenas 8y ago
Around this time: https://youtu.be/QTmAtXoPkgw?t=256 https://youtu.be/QTmAtXoPkgw?t=256 (4:16 into the video) it talks about how ChromeOS runs Android, Linux, and ChromeOS apps natively, in a performant and secure manner, without emulation using a combination of containers and hardware virtualization. This strikes me as very similar to Qubes' security model. Very interesting to see this architecture developed by a company like Google.
- bsaul 8y ago
  What do you mean by "without emulation ... using hardware virtualization" ? Is the difference that hardware of the VM has to match the one of the real hardware ?
  - liamcardenas 8y ago
    Good question. I don't know the official difference between emulation and virtualization. I do want to point out that these were the words of the presenter, and not my own: “So, Android and Linux support don’t do any emulation. By using lightweight containers and hardware virtualization support, your code will run natively.”
  - celkam 8y ago
    Yes. In emulation, you have one chip architecture trying to mock the behavior of another chip architecture (like running ARM code on x86). In virtualization, you're setting up secure contexts, but sending the instruction for the code in the container straight to the CPU without translation.
  - jeena 8y ago
    I find the picture they're showing also quite confusing, my guess is that they're using some kind of a hardware hypervisor and that runs different VMs.
antoineMoPa 8y ago
So do we still have to be in developer mode with new chromebooks to do this? Currently, I have a semi-old chromebook with crouton, which means I have to be in developer mode, which means I risk deleting my entire disk at every boot. Someone else erased it some years ago, thinking that hitting space at boot was the right choice when prompted with "This system is unsafe, press space to erase entire disk"...
- danans 8y ago
  No. This all runs in regular mode.
  - antoineMoPa 8y ago
    Great!
  - dandv 8y ago
    The remote debugging part does require developer mode. https://medium.com/@dandv/remote-debugging-web-apps-running-locally-in-chrome-os-70ebd3099455 https://medium.com/@dandv/remote-debugging-web-apps-running-...
stupidbird 8y ago
I'd consider switching if I could get that 75% discount.
- 0xFFC 8y ago
  Me too. But I couldn't find where was that %75 discount?
  - stupidbird 8y ago
    only for attendees, doesn't seem to be any loopholes
- johnatwork 8y ago
  Same here, I'm considering this, but the price point doesn't make sense for now. You could get a used ThinkPad with better Dev env support.
- sridca 8y ago
  For what it's worth, Lenovo is running a 40% discount on the X series this week (Canadian EPP).
satysin 8y ago
I don't do any web development but I think this will be very interesting when they bring the Android development tools to Chrome OS. There are some very nice Chromebooks out these days that have more than enough power to offer a decent-to-good Android development environment it just lacks an OS that can run the required tools out-of-the-box. I hope to see a true developer Chromebook in 2019 :)
agundy 8y ago
I paired a Dell Chromebook 13 with SSH to a permanently on desktop for my senior year of college. Worked great: 12 hours of battery life, light, cheap laptop and the development environment was the same on the move or at home. Tmux sessions with Vim means I could keep my laptop in my backpack and pick up where I left off on the desktop. SSH tunnels allowed any web dev work to be painless too. I would recommend if you have a desktop and just want a cheap long battery life computer with decent build quality. Almost all my work could be done this way.
- ggpsv 8y ago
  Can you expand on this? What OS were you running your desktop?
  - agundy 8y ago
    Ran Ubuntu Desktop, nothing fancy, just had it always on and I never even worried about doing dynamic DNS, my internet provider basically never rotated IP's. Experimented with Crouton on the Chromebook but the switching and experience wasn't as great as just using pure ChromeOS. Surprisingly fast development environment for being off the host but college Wifi was reliable and fast and there weren't many hops to my desktop.
- celkam 8y ago
  Before Crostini this is exactly what my setup was, just using a droplet on DO.
- sridca 8y ago
  This is exactly the reason why I decided to order a Pixel Slate, and leave my beafy Thinkpad (P71) plugged-in back at home like a "server machine".
- epicide 8y ago
  I actually do something similar with my tablet as well. Mosh + tmux is insanely powerful. Even when I'm using my laptop, I have a more or less persistent SSH+tmux session open. It's nice being able to kick off long-running tasks and still able to just shut the laptop and walk away.
InTheArena 8y ago
What still pisses me off on this, is that even a flagship, great recent product like the Asus C302CA Chromebook (intel chip and all) is not supported. All of the drawbacks of the android ecosystem - inconsistent versions, inconsistent deployments of versions - but on my desktop. Yay. I was really positive about ChromeOS, but this has soured me on it incredibly.
- Latteland 8y ago
  They require a recent Linus kernel for crostini for some virtualization feature and vendors ship some Chromebooks with old kernels without that feature.
- jimmcslim 8y ago
  There are hopeful rumours that it might get support. It is one of the few 'top-end' Chromebooks that can be purchased in Australia.
canhascodez 8y ago
I patched my firmware and installed GalliumOS[0], which is basically a tweaked version of Ubuntu. I was previously using crouton[1], which functions similarly[3] to Crostini. On ChromeOS, I was using the Cloud9 Web IDE (which has since become an Amazon service), and on the Crouton/GalliumOS side of things I've been using ST2/3, but have essentially switched completely to SpaceVim[3]. ChromeOS is fine for web development, except that it started killing tabs after you open ten or more. I liked Cloud9 for the most part, particularly that it saved its state all the time: you could close your browser window, and come back to that project a few days later, and all of the same files would be open, and any terminal commands still running. Both NetBeans and Atom were painfully slow, regardless of system configuration. Switching to a docker-centric (i.e. HDD-heavy) workflow has meant switching to a remote server -- for now, a VPS, at least until I get my local server a new HDD. So ChromeOS is perfect for my needs, in that it has a full-color terminal with ssh, and a web browser for documentation. However, that's kind of a low bar. On the plus side, ChromeOS is quite secure. On the minus side, it's not "real" Linux in some relevant senses. Auto-updating is nice, and also being able to unbox a new machine, sign in, and automatically have your local apps and files start appearing. Heavy Google Apps integration is probably more of a feature than not. However, the rate at which the OS would kill tabs (including the terminal!) made the system quite unpleasant to use. Yes, the problem here is me: the hardware can't easily handle a large number of tabs, and it's a perfectly valid decision to kill tabs quickly rather than let the system become unresponsive. Probably it was even mostly effective at that. Probably a better-spec'd machine would have fewer memory issues. However, I have consistently gone to considerable lengths to avoid using ChromeOS: replacing the firmware requires disassembly and the removal of an internal screw, and risks bricking the machine. Enabling developer mode prevents the system from booting normally: instead, a white screen appears after power-on which says something like "Press spacebar to restore ChromeOS". I believe that it does let you know that this will wipe the user partition, after you've started. It does not tell you the key combination required to boot the machine. Loaning out a Chromebook in developer mode is therefore not recommended. I'm shopping for a replacement for the chromebook I'm typing this on. It cost $115, I've used it for a couple years, the second power cord seems to be giving up, and the screen is partially held together with electrical tape: I think it gives it a bit of character. I've had at least two other (cheap) Chromebooks before this. I don't think I'm in the market for another. At the moment, I'm probably looking for a (Linux) Dell XPS 13, or similar: I would appreciate any suggestions. [0] https://galliumos.org/ [1] https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton [2] https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton#what-about-dem-crostinis-though [3] https://spacevim.org/
dirkg 8y ago
Some counterpoints - - Crostini is only for a limited set of Chromebooks. I have an Acer 15 with Intel Broadwell, which is extremely powerful and not that old, but Google won't support it for whatever insane reason they might have - Chromebook keyboard is lacking. You cannot program without a del key - They aren't cheap. Only the low end low powered 2GB models are and they are unusable, as well as not supported by Crostini. For this kind of money I can get a Windows laptop with almost equiv battery life - or even better, a used Thinnkpad + Linux which would be better than almost anything for 1/2 the cost.
- jamescostian 8y ago
  > You cannot program without a del key As a programmer who switched to a mac (without a delete key), I also used to think the delete was crucial. I'm curious, what are you using the delete key for? I've only ever used it as a backspace-but-reverse when typing, and to delete things like files in GUIs. The workarounds for these issues are trivial (change your cursor's position for the typing issue, and GUIs respond to backspace with a modifier key), so I'm wondering what other (not-as-easily-emulatable) functionality the delete key gives
  - epicide 8y ago
    By the way, Fn+backspace on a Mac does a delete. Not just in GUIs, either.
- sridca 8y ago
  > - or even better, a used Thinnkpad + Linux which would be better than almost anything for 1/2 the cost. I do have a Thinkpad (running NixOS), however the battery life sucks. 2 hours for P71 (or 4 hours for X1C6). And hardware support is not perfect (I simply cannot figure out yet how to connect my Bose QC headphones via bluetooth). So I have high hopes for chromebooks (like Pixel Slate) because then you can have best of the both worlds. The year of Linux desktop is arriving, but not as directly as we have all thought it would.
  - beefield 8y ago
davidy123 8y ago
I was excited by this prospect mainly because of battery life, but I have a recent Thinkpad and with Ubuntu 18.10 battery life is quite good, even though I have 32GB and a zillion tabs open. This i7 Thinkpad is more expandable and serviceable and still cost less. Probably some of the improvements are due to ChromeOS Kernel improvements, so thanks for that!
z3t4 8y ago
I read about the Chromebooks being a huge market especially in education, so I bought a Chromebook and made a app targeted for education. The market is however a ghost town, it seems I'm at least 5 years behind, most old apps have 10ˇ5 users, but new apps, those only one or two years old, have less then 10ˇ2 users ... What happened? Are schools only using pre-installed apps? Or did they stop using Chromebooks? How does this market work!? Besides being only a Chrome browser, the Chromebook is actually very nice! It's fast and battery last for two or more days. It's perfect for browsing HN, but for developing I'm using another machine with Ubuntu. Also I have not got support for Android and this Crostini thing on my Chromebook. Ohh and you need a Google account to login, although both Apple and Microsoft does this now a days, so even if you bought your computer, you are not really owning it, just pre paid rent, unless you install another Linux distro on it.
- danans 8y ago
  > most old apps have 10ˇ5 users, but new apps, those only one or two years old, have less then 10ˇ2 users ... What happened? Are schools only using pre-installed apps? Schools and school systems don't buy software directly from app stores, like consumers do. Generally, they decide to use a particular piece of software based on public standards, best practices within the educational community, or academic research on efficacy. Then they will usually buy a site license or subscription that provides access for all their students. If you are trying to get schools to use your software, it probably makes sense to explain its value via the channels that schools are paying attention to.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  US education system mostly, so if you are located in another country, you aren't going to get much customers anyway.
sigzero 8y ago
The actual ChromeOS (not Chromium) in a VM would be nice to try things out.
remir 8y ago
I liked the Spotify progressive web app they demoed. I wish Mozilla would compete against ChromeOS and release a similar OS. Too bad FF OS is dead.

211 points by espeed 8y ago

Interesting. Any advantage of using Chrome OS for Web development compared to just any plain Linux distro (e.g. Ubuntu)? Or, even more interesting, compared to MacOS? Because from the video, it feels as if Crostini is a second-class citizen on Chrome OS (all that talk about Linux in a container). Why choose Chrome OS at all?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
pkulak 8y ago
Chrome OS has a better Window manager, better monitor support, better polish in general as a Desktop. Compared to MacOS, I'd say probably just cost.
mav3rick 8y ago
Crostini is a VM solution (the container is in a VM). It's by no means a second class citizen. The Files app for instance shows Linux apps along side your Chrome OS apps. Other integration pieces are in the works. Why choose Chrome OS? It's the only mainstream OS with security at it's forefront and 6 week release cycles. Also, the battery life is amazing and there are a range of devices from low end to the higher end pixelbook. (some of the low end ones may not get Crostini yet). If you want a nice travel device you can get a low end Chromebook. If you want a no hassle internet solution you can get a cheapo Chromebook for your folks. Now if you want a Dev environment you can get a higher end Chromebook as well.
- dman 8y ago
  Support window for older devices is questionable. I own a Generation 1 Pixelbook and it has stopped receiving updates (including security updates). Dropping security updates after a couple of years in fact is worse than other operating systems. Am unsure if users are alerted that their devices will not be updated anymore. Disclaimer: Views expressed are my own and do not represent my employer.
  - mav3rick 8y ago
    Chromebooks have a 5 year support policy. It's not a couple of years.
    - dman 8y ago
      That is worse than other alternatives - PCs and Mac machines.
      - stickfigure 8y ago
        Not if you measure in $/yr of service. Also... you've got to treat a laptop pretty gingerly to have one last more than 5 years. Mine are in pretty rough shape by then.
        dman 8y ago
        On the price front - https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-3000/spd/inspiron-11-3180-laptop https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/inspiron-11-300... - that is a windows laptop for $180. Do you think a chromebook will have better $/year than that? On the durability front - I guess you dont use thinkpads :)
        kbutler 8y ago
        I picked up one of those for Black Friday last year. Nice little machine, but the 32GB drive is not enough for Windows - Windows update failed within 6 months because of disk full - even with no user data. Way too much hassle I ended up putting Linux on it - faster and could keep it updated. But still quite a bit of hassle. It's sitting in a drawer now. But my old Samsung arm Chromebook XE303C12 still gets used. I do miss the more complete keyboard on the Inspiron, though.
        mav3rick 8y ago
        Good luck with Windows on 32 GB.
pjmlp 8y ago
After watching this session and having seen the focus on making Android apps better citizens shown at Google IO and Android Developer Summit, I got this gut feeling that Chrome OS might actually be where Google is heading to, and not Fuchsia. I don't envision they will keep three development teams doing OSes for the same hardware form factors. Now regarding ChromeOS vs plain GNU/Linux, macOS or Windows, I don't see a value, specifically given the prices of Chromebooks able to have Crostini enabled.
- Latteland 8y ago
  Any or almost any recent Intel based Chromebook with recent kernel does crostini.
- sseth 8y ago
  Or it may be that Chrome OS runs on fuchsia, and the 2nd linux kernel runs side by side for Crostini. But even if it did, this is at least a couple of years away, I think.
zaxcellent 8y ago
(I'm crostini developer) Chrome OS has some natural advantages as an OS e.g. it's always updated and secure, device drivers just work. Chrome OS is also the only desktop OS with Android support maintained by Google. Because Crostini uses Linux containers, more Linux programs can be used in development than MacOS, and any linux distribution that runs under LXD can be used. Chromebooks can also be found in certain places more commonly than macbooks, e.g. at schools or as part of a company's fleet of hardware.
- bhhaskin 8y ago
  That's all well and good, but doesn't answer the question. Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? My Ubuntu instillation is also always updated and secure. Device drivers also just work. The android support sounds great for android development, not web development.
  - ChristianBundy 8y ago
    > Why would I use Chrome OS rather than another Linux distro for web development? You shouldn't. It's in Google's best interest to get people to use their products. It's in your best interest to avoid Google whenever you can.
    - azangru 8y ago
      :-) I love this answer
    - sridca 8y ago
      I see that ditching Google has become a popular past-time here in HN, however avoiding Google is surely not even close to my best interest.
    - Latteland 8y ago
      So you think there is some special Google spying of what you type in bash in chromeos? Ain't happening
- 8y ago
skybrian 8y ago
Didn't watch the video, but partially this is interesting due to cheap hardware. There are a wide variety of Chromebooks available. Also, in a way, running Linux as a "second class citizen" seems like an interesting way to do it since you could experiment more while knowing you'll always have a browser available. Maybe ask the opposite question: what's the advantage of running Linux outside a container, versus inside?
microcolonel 8y ago
Containers are fairly lightweight abstractions on Linux, there is effectively no runtime cost. I use a Chromebook as my mobile work machine (I use full desktop Linux on my workstation at home) because it is disposable, low-risk, and easy to wipe. It takes about 20 seconds for me to destroy all the data on the machine and lend it to somebody with a great deal of confidence, and the Chrome OS part synchronizes on its own. I use Syncthing to sync my mobile desktop Linux configs and a handful of other things. So between those two I can set up any old random Chromebook to work as a workstation in a matter of minutes. If I have a good internet connection, chrome remote desktop makes a good interim solution if I can't wait for Crostini to install. Generally I do most of my productive work in desktop Linux, but Chromebooks are also good consumer machines. The mid to low tier ones are totally usable, have great battery life, and can be bought easily in any developed country except China. The Chromium team has a great track record for security, and having (in a very small way) worked with their security folks, I can tell you that they take the business and community of improving and maintaining Chrome's security very seriously. If you are using an unmodified Chromebook with the most recent stable release of Chrome OS, and not in dev mode, then you can be reasonably sure that it's going to reliably carry out its promise of security.
rb808 8y ago
Cheap, light, low powered/long battery life.
staticassertion 8y ago
I use my Pixelbook for development when I travel. * I didn't have to set it up, install an OS, or anything. It was trivial to get Linux working (one click - hard to beat that) and I can use intellij and all the other stuff I'm used to. * I get Android Apps, which is actually pretty neat - some good video players with touch screen support, for example. A fair number of games work, which is cool. * Touch screen in general is actually awesome, maybe less for development but I find myself touching my screens when I walk away from my Chromebook and go to another computer. I never thought I'd enjoy a touch screen at all and now I want every future device I buy to have one. * Safer than most systems. My dev environment is sequestered to a container, everything else stays in a sandboxed browser - my workflow on my Ubuntu system (main computer) is virtually identical to this already, but ChromeOS is designed for it. Biggest problem is I compile my Rust programs in a docker container in the Linux environment and it brings my computer to a crawl. I can't develop or watch TV while compiling Rust.
rifung 8y ago
Disclaimer I work at Google My own personal reason is that I have never had an ideal experience running Linux on laptops. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tinkering and it was fun when I was in school, but nowadays I don't have much time so if I want to develop something I don't want my time to be spent fixing technical difficulties. With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. I also personally really like Chrome OS for it's simplicity and speed but of course you could say I'm biased. Indeed I like it so much I transferred to work on Chrome OS a couple months ago. Compared with OS X.. that really just depends on your preference. I have nothing bad to say about it and enjoyed using my MBP when I had one. I just like having a really lightweight OS but again that's really subjective and for many people the right answer is OS X! I'm just happy we have the choices now.
- type0 8y ago
  > With Chrome OS the main benefit to me is the same as running OS X or Windows: you don't have to worry about your stuff working. Has not been my experience with either of these three. There are plenty of Linux distros that are miles more stable.
  - rifung 8y ago
    That's fair I should have prefaced by saying I have only used the Pixelbook and my experience on Linux is limited to Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, Mint, and Slack. I've only really used a Thinkpad and MBP for the laptops so of course your experience may differ depending on your hardware. Also when I said things work I didn't mean stability/crashes which I admit do happen. I was referring to hardware (wifi) not working which in my opinion is much more annoying.
  - azangru 8y ago
    Yep, I've heard so many people complain about Windows subsystem for Linux that I am terrified of even touching Windows. It's been mostly a smooth ride on MacOS for me, but there were some minor quirks that I encountered on MacOS that were not even an issue on my Linux machine (an example most vivid in my mind is how the default ssh client broke on High Sierra: https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolve-hostname-high-sierra https://superuser.com/questions/1279450/ssh-could-not-resolv... or how Docker on MacOS could not resolve ipv6 addresses).
Latteland 8y ago
Yes, security and integration. You can have secure crostini shells that can't infect your main os yet share UI and files. You can integrate data by copying files, cut and paste too, but it's light weight like docker. You can at the same time use the secure chromeos.

youeseh 8y ago

Who is this really for? Students who have a cheap Chromebook and couldn't write / test code due to OS restrictions? Developers who have a Chromebook (and love it) and wanted to use it for everything?

nxc18 8y ago
I got a chromebook because I needed a device with a keyboard I could use from my couch/patio. I've been extremely impressed - I can use Android apps, and they work well, due to tablet mode support. Being able to have a Linux laptop that just works is really awesome. I think you could make the argument that ChromeBook is just as versatile as Windows now - huge app store (Play), great browser, and a Linux terminal. So I guess its for everyone that Windows is for.
- Nicksil 8y ago
  >I got a chromebook because I needed a device with a keyboard I could use from my couch/patio. That's a laptop, right? Were you in search of a form factor other than laptop? What about the Chrome Book's form factor was more appealing to you than that of the "standard" laptop? >Being able to have a Linux laptop that just works is really awesome. What Linux distribution were you using that didn't work to your liking? What were the pitfalls and what did Chrome Book do different to mitigate the issues you were having with other versions of Linux?
  - nxc18 8y ago
    It's really cheap and really rugged. I didn't think I'd like the tablet/tent modes, but I actually do find them convenient and do them a lot. Really I needed a device exclusively for light browsing and writing - and what I got was actually more powerful than I realized; they snuck a full laptop into what used to be an internet appliance.
mav3rick 8y ago
People who want usability without security being an afterthought.

rb808 8y ago

I'm thinking of getting a Chromebook for dev work, with the view of just using it as a dumb client for terminals and browser to cloud servers. I'm worried I'll buy then wish I bought a proper machine. Anyone thought the same then regretted it?

mav3rick 8y ago
My suggestion would be to get a cheap one if you're on the fence. Make sure it supports all the features you want. If it doesn't work out it can be an excellent daily device for any non-dev relatives.
turtlebits 8y ago
Before linux support (crostini) yes. Now, for personal use, I've started using my pixelbook more than my Mac/Windows machines.
overcast 8y ago
My suggestion right now(from a Mac user), is a Windows 10 machine with the Linux subsystem installed. You'll have an entire Linux environment integrated into Windows, giving you the best of both worlds. Supported software, hardware, and your natural development environment. Honestly, I'm weary of moving anything to Google with their track record of just abandoning projects, and privacy concerns.
- mav3rick 8y ago
  With all due respect WSL will always be behind Google's implementation. WSL implements a subset of linux syscalls to get compatibility. Crostini's guest OS is a Debian image so there are less compatibility challenges than WSL.
  - overcast 8y ago
    I haven't run into any compatibility problems, and was able to get my environment running identical to the production server. So how does what you said affect my experience? It works without jumping further into Google's uncertain ecosystem. And when I'm not working, I can fire up my Steam library, all on the same machine.

pkulak 8y ago

I'm still waiting on good Docker support. Word is it's close, but I don't know if it's there right now. Really all I need in a dev machine is a Unix + docker + IDE, so this is pretty interesting.

0xCMP 8y ago
If that's what you're waiting for I'd say it's ready. Although you have to run Docker inside the host and I don't think you can run privileged containers (don't have in front of me to test).
enos_feedler 8y ago
A patch has been merged to fix an issue that was preventing docker from working. I don't think the patch has made it's way into a proper docker release yet but I am using a custom build and it's been working fine for a month on my pixelbook. I do container development and control a GKE cluster with kubectl as well. More details on the docker patch here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/9jabhq/docker_now_working/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/9jabhq/docker_now...
- pkulak 8y ago
  Nice, thanks for the info!

zwaps 8y ago

So it does everything that Linux does, but you can also send all your personal data automatically to google. Wow, what a value proposition!

pkulak 8y ago
You can send your data to Google with anything.
idm 8y ago
I made a separate account for the Chromebook. I don't associate any personal info with this account. Of course, most people will reuse their existing accounts, but it's not strictly required to provide personal details in order to use a Chromebook.
- mosselman 8y ago
  It still sounds like something I’d not be interested in: having to be so defensive around the os. Apps are already annoying, but if you can’t trust the OS itself, then why bother with it at all?
  - jchw 8y ago
    That's the reality I feel every time I boot into Windows to be honest. I work at Google so I am definitely biased but candidly those OneDrive ads in Explorer pissed me off pretty badly, as does start menu ads, Cortana notifications, automatically installing Candy Crush, and so many other things. You can disable most of that, but then I hear there's still telemetry getting sent back to MSFT even after you disable every tickbox in site. Of course, the obvious solution is to run a good Linux distro or OpenBSD, but frankly it's hard to live with purely just Linux for me. ChromeOS has the advantage of things like near perfect High DPI support.
    - zwaps 8y ago
      For what's it worth, I have been using Linux as a side-OS since pre 2000, and only in the last two years has it become really good. It's now my main driver on all my machines and frankly I have started to prefer it. This has never happened in the ~20 years I have been using Linux and other OS. Linux went from "meh" to just as good pretty recently, imo. Furthermore, this is just a usability consideration. Don't forget that all other OS become more and more closed, more and more about collecting private data, and more and more about proprietary app stores.

0xCMP 8y ago

Been using edge releases on my Pixelbook i7 for a few months. Much of this is pretty baked. I wish USB support was here so I could use my Yubikey 5c to do SSH, but otherwise it's fine. From my experience Docker works fine. VS Code works well. You can install your own Terminal if you want. Note for the demo in the video they ran Chromium inside the VM so localhost would work. Otherwise you need to use the penguin.linux.test domain which was pretty hard to find out about when they made that change. Another thing is you really should default to binding to 0.0.0.0:$PORT because that makes your life easier as well. For those not enjoying MBPs and their keyboards the Pixelbook's keyboard is pretty good. If I had to make a recommendation I'd say that getting a lower -end pixelbook would be a great buy. Not sure my i7 or extra SSD space has really been worth it.

fhenneke 8y ago
You can use Secure Shell for SSH with your Yubikey in the meantime: https://chromium.googlesource.com/apps/libapps/+/HEAD/nassh/doc/hardware-keys.md https://chromium.googlesource.com/apps/libapps/+/HEAD/nassh/...
celkam 8y ago
Certain ports are bound to localhost from the container for "popular applications" https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/99s3t9/wellknown_ports_are_now_autoforwarded_to_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Crostini/comments/99s3t9/wellknown_...
sridca 8y ago
> Not sure my i7 or extra SSD space has really been worth it. .. worth it for what purposes, it would depend. I write Haskell and compile that to JavaScript (using GHCJS), so i7 with 16 GB memory (more would be better here) would help.
Yhippa 8y ago
> For those not enjoying MBPs and their keyboards the Pixelbook's keyboard is pretty good. I really enjoy the Pixelbook's keyboard. It's definitely better than the MBP's and is sometimes more pleasing to use than my mechanical keyboards (Cherry red/brown switches).

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

resters 8y ago

Ready for web development just as it starts to achieve price parity with a macbook. I'd argue that this is largely a failure of the initial vision of a lightweight OS that can run very well on low cost hardware.

nbar1 8y ago
Only the Google Chromebooks are priced high, and still isn't even close to the Macbook. There are many offerings from other company for just a few hundred dollars that run Chrome OS.
- johnatwork 8y ago
  But those cheap Chromebooks won't run Crostini right?
  - celkam 8y ago
    It depends on the kernel version and the CPU's virtualization support. I have a C101PA that I got before the price hike, and use it for hacking in lisp during my commutes.
nine_k 8y ago
It can likely run well on low-cost portable hardware. But the web development tools likely won't run well on it. (You can get plenty of power using a now low-cost box of Xeons from two generations ago. Likely not your use case, though.)

philips 8y ago

Anecdote: I stopped using OSX for primary development about 7 months ago and started using a Pixelbook + Crostini exclusively. Par - Hassle free desktop experience on par with OSX - Password managers, music apps, etc available via Android appstore Advantages - Fast time to productivity because Crostini takes a few clicks, then apt-get everything - Native "File Manager" integration makes it painless to move files to and from VM - Desktop apps in the VM appear in ChromeOS apps menu without hassle of X11.app, SSH forwarding, etc - Android integration to unlock the laptop, etc works great - Hardware built-in FIDO U2F device Disadvantages - ChromeOS 70 still crashes once and awhile inexplicably (weekly) - Android apps can be janky to resize - Multi-display with Android apps sometimes doesn't work Overall I feel more productive on my Pixelbook vs OSX.

rkeene2 8y ago
It's real annoying when Chrome crashes (which it does once or twice a week on average) because it restarts all your Android apps as well !
- kibwen 8y ago
  Flashbacks to Internet Explorer crashes taking out your desktop.
  - moocowtruck 8y ago
    thats the irony here... so much of this thread just reminds of of windows XP
lgleason 8y ago
I've been using the Pixelbook i7 16gb/512 SSD as a travel machine for native Android development. Some other con's I've noticed. 1. Multi-monitor support can get a bit flaky when using more than one monitor. 2. While is is pretty speedy, you do run into performance limitations due to it only having a dual core processor. 3. Many Android apps are not as fully featured as their OS-X counterparts. Yes you could use them all in Crostini, but now your going through another virtualization layer, plus the integration is still not fully there. All of that being said, I used to be a crouton user and it is stable enough that I am not longer doing that....though the lack of USB device support is a bummer (and was supported in crouton).

zaxcellent 8y ago

In case you're interested in the technical guts of crostini, I gave a recorded talk to the NYLUG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwrXqDERFm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwrXqDERFm8

idm 8y ago

Happy Chromebook user here. I use the Asus c213 as my daily driver now. I do the heavy lifting on a Linux server. Crostini made it all click for the mobile development environment. VS Code was the last piece of the workflow that I was missing. Now, I've got a rugged laptop with rubberized edges and some water resistance. I take this thing into environments I would never have taken any other laptop. I don't worry about this laptop and I love that.

SniperOwl 8y ago

Did he say 75% off? Can some elaborate the discount?

benforreal 8y ago
I was at the Chrome Dev Summit - we got 75% off coupons at registration, so it was advertised as for attendees only. Even so, it wasn't a real coupon code - you go to a site, enter the code, and tell them what app you're working and they get back to you. Not quite sure how "required" that is, but they were required form fields
- WildGreenLeave 8y ago
  Was that a personal coupon code or a generic one? In other words, can you share it or not? :)
  - dandv 8y ago
    Speaker here. The discount codes were intended for the attendees, are unique, and they can not be redeemed twice. That said, I'd keep an eye for any Black Friday/Cyber Monday deals.
- machbio 8y ago
  Link to the website?

kbumsik 8y ago

Will it happen to Chromium OS for normal laptops too? As a heavy Linux desktop user this looks quite interesting.

chillydawg 8y ago

So, I assume everything is streamed back to google for ads? Files, clicks, network configs?

chasedehan 8y ago

I once had plans to do dev work on a chromebook. I even installed gallium on one. BUT,the biggest problem for me is the keyboard and missing a bunch of essential keys.

type0 8y ago
Not having proper function keys means it's faulty by design for me, or can I remap those Chromebook keys to f keys somehow?
- dandv 8y ago
  Yes, the top row of keys map to F1 - F10. You can activate them if you hold the Search key while pressing them, or you can have Chrome OS "Treat top-row keys as function keys" (Settings -> Keyboard). Pixelbooks: https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/7504061 https://support.google.com/pixelbook/answer/7504061 Chrome OS in general: https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1047364 https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/1047364

soared 8y ago

If anyone is looking to pick up a chromebook, I maintain an ongoing list of chromebook black friday deals that includes most of the relevant specs (except linux/android support) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L9SM7k-Z6LSsGvdi7doZ4rjTaqXBfjFNkwx5x_GMWo/edit https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L9SM7k-Z6LSsGvdi7do...

no_protocol 8y ago
Can you add a column for whether or not these have cellular data capabilities? The HP Chromebook I bought in 2014 has cellular data and if I ever replace it I'll probably want one with the same.
- swebs 8y ago
  Processor architecture would be helpful as well. Many games and other closed source applications don't work with ARM processors even though they support Linux.
penglish1 8y ago
Thank you for this public service!
threatofrain 8y ago
I've been anticipating the Acer Chromebook 13 (CB713) but they've been very off on their announced released date with no followup commentary. https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-series/acerchromebook13cb713 https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/professional-series/ac...
snaky 8y ago
That's great, but it would be nice to add a column 'could you install other OS on it'.
tluyben2 8y ago
Thanks for making that list. I guess there will be more requests but a battery life (real if possible, not factory indications) column would be great.

xaduha 8y ago

I think I'll install Chromium on my old notebook that hasn't died yet (Samsung R40, that old). But if I decide to buy a new one I'd make sure that VFIO works on it, once you cross that bridge there's no reason to go back. And I suspect that Chromebooks don't support VFIO.

chewz 8y ago

I am really happy with ChromeOS + Debian Stretch (via crouton not crostini) running on my Macbook Pro Retina. It has taken away all pains of macOS, the screen estate and keyboard (2015 model) are great. What's not to like? But what I like most is the ability to re-create my working environment on any hardware from USB key in 15 minutes.

sridca 8y ago
> what I like most is the ability to re-create my working environment on any hardware from USB key in 15 minutes Could you elaborate on this?
- chewz 8y ago
  Well, I keep an install of ChromeOS on USB flash drive and I do regular backups [1] of crouton partition with Debian (cli only - 3.4 GB currently in my case). If I do not have my laptop with me I can install ChromeOS on any machine which takes maximum 15 minutes [depending on flash drive and USB speed]. Log in and entire ChromeOS graphical environment (bookmarks, Chrome extensions, ChromeOS apps, Web apps) is re-created automatically by ChromeOS from my Google account. Then re-creating crouton partition with Debian takes another 5 minutes. And I am good to go, because this is exact 1:1 copy of my Debian terminal environment with Vim, mutt, Mail folder, all project folders, npm packages, pip packages, git and everything. On new machine the screen could have different resolution, perhaps I have to login into few webpages in Chrome but it is generally my full environment. I did so in summer when I have not taken my Mac to vacation and also I often move to spare Lenovo laptop if I need to. [1] https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton/wiki/Backups https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton/wiki/Backups

liamcardenas 8y ago

Around this time: https://youtu.be/QTmAtXoPkgw?t=256 https://youtu.be/QTmAtXoPkgw?t=256 (4:16 into the video) it talks about how ChromeOS runs Android, Linux, and ChromeOS apps natively, in a performant and secure manner, without emulation using a combination of containers and hardware virtualization. This strikes me as very similar to Qubes' security model. Very interesting to see this architecture developed by a company like Google.

bsaul 8y ago
What do you mean by "without emulation ... using hardware virtualization" ? Is the difference that hardware of the VM has to match the one of the real hardware ?
- liamcardenas 8y ago
  Good question. I don't know the official difference between emulation and virtualization. I do want to point out that these were the words of the presenter, and not my own: “So, Android and Linux support don’t do any emulation. By using lightweight containers and hardware virtualization support, your code will run natively.”
- celkam 8y ago
  Yes. In emulation, you have one chip architecture trying to mock the behavior of another chip architecture (like running ARM code on x86). In virtualization, you're setting up secure contexts, but sending the instruction for the code in the container straight to the CPU without translation.
- jeena 8y ago
  I find the picture they're showing also quite confusing, my guess is that they're using some kind of a hardware hypervisor and that runs different VMs.

antoineMoPa 8y ago

So do we still have to be in developer mode with new chromebooks to do this? Currently, I have a semi-old chromebook with crouton, which means I have to be in developer mode, which means I risk deleting my entire disk at every boot. Someone else erased it some years ago, thinking that hitting space at boot was the right choice when prompted with "This system is unsafe, press space to erase entire disk"...

danans 8y ago
No. This all runs in regular mode.
- antoineMoPa 8y ago
  Great!
- dandv 8y ago
  The remote debugging part does require developer mode. https://medium.com/@dandv/remote-debugging-web-apps-running-locally-in-chrome-os-70ebd3099455 https://medium.com/@dandv/remote-debugging-web-apps-running-...

stupidbird 8y ago

I'd consider switching if I could get that 75% discount.

0xFFC 8y ago
Me too. But I couldn't find where was that %75 discount?
- stupidbird 8y ago
  only for attendees, doesn't seem to be any loopholes
johnatwork 8y ago
Same here, I'm considering this, but the price point doesn't make sense for now. You could get a used ThinkPad with better Dev env support.
sridca 8y ago
For what it's worth, Lenovo is running a 40% discount on the X series this week (Canadian EPP).

satysin 8y ago

I don't do any web development but I think this will be very interesting when they bring the Android development tools to Chrome OS. There are some very nice Chromebooks out these days that have more than enough power to offer a decent-to-good Android development environment it just lacks an OS that can run the required tools out-of-the-box. I hope to see a true developer Chromebook in 2019 :)

agundy 8y ago

I paired a Dell Chromebook 13 with SSH to a permanently on desktop for my senior year of college. Worked great: 12 hours of battery life, light, cheap laptop and the development environment was the same on the move or at home. Tmux sessions with Vim means I could keep my laptop in my backpack and pick up where I left off on the desktop. SSH tunnels allowed any web dev work to be painless too. I would recommend if you have a desktop and just want a cheap long battery life computer with decent build quality. Almost all my work could be done this way.

ggpsv 8y ago
Can you expand on this? What OS were you running your desktop?
- agundy 8y ago
  Ran Ubuntu Desktop, nothing fancy, just had it always on and I never even worried about doing dynamic DNS, my internet provider basically never rotated IP's. Experimented with Crouton on the Chromebook but the switching and experience wasn't as great as just using pure ChromeOS. Surprisingly fast development environment for being off the host but college Wifi was reliable and fast and there weren't many hops to my desktop.
celkam 8y ago
Before Crostini this is exactly what my setup was, just using a droplet on DO.
sridca 8y ago
This is exactly the reason why I decided to order a Pixel Slate, and leave my beafy Thinkpad (P71) plugged-in back at home like a "server machine".
epicide 8y ago
I actually do something similar with my tablet as well. Mosh + tmux is insanely powerful. Even when I'm using my laptop, I have a more or less persistent SSH+tmux session open. It's nice being able to kick off long-running tasks and still able to just shut the laptop and walk away.

InTheArena 8y ago

What still pisses me off on this, is that even a flagship, great recent product like the Asus C302CA Chromebook (intel chip and all) is not supported. All of the drawbacks of the android ecosystem - inconsistent versions, inconsistent deployments of versions - but on my desktop. Yay. I was really positive about ChromeOS, but this has soured me on it incredibly.

Latteland 8y ago
They require a recent Linus kernel for crostini for some virtualization feature and vendors ship some Chromebooks with old kernels without that feature.
jimmcslim 8y ago
There are hopeful rumours that it might get support. It is one of the few 'top-end' Chromebooks that can be purchased in Australia.

canhascodez 8y ago

I patched my firmware and installed GalliumOS[0], which is basically a tweaked version of Ubuntu. I was previously using crouton[1], which functions similarly[3] to Crostini. On ChromeOS, I was using the Cloud9 Web IDE (which has since become an Amazon service), and on the Crouton/GalliumOS side of things I've been using ST2/3, but have essentially switched completely to SpaceVim[3]. ChromeOS is fine for web development, except that it started killing tabs after you open ten or more. I liked Cloud9 for the most part, particularly that it saved its state all the time: you could close your browser window, and come back to that project a few days later, and all of the same files would be open, and any terminal commands still running. Both NetBeans and Atom were painfully slow, regardless of system configuration. Switching to a docker-centric (i.e. HDD-heavy) workflow has meant switching to a remote server -- for now, a VPS, at least until I get my local server a new HDD. So ChromeOS is perfect for my needs, in that it has a full-color terminal with ssh, and a web browser for documentation. However, that's kind of a low bar. On the plus side, ChromeOS is quite secure. On the minus side, it's not "real" Linux in some relevant senses. Auto-updating is nice, and also being able to unbox a new machine, sign in, and automatically have your local apps and files start appearing. Heavy Google Apps integration is probably more of a feature than not. However, the rate at which the OS would kill tabs (including the terminal!) made the system quite unpleasant to use. Yes, the problem here is me: the hardware can't easily handle a large number of tabs, and it's a perfectly valid decision to kill tabs quickly rather than let the system become unresponsive. Probably it was even mostly effective at that. Probably a better-spec'd machine would have fewer memory issues. However, I have consistently gone to considerable lengths to avoid using ChromeOS: replacing the firmware requires disassembly and the removal of an internal screw, and risks bricking the machine. Enabling developer mode prevents the system from booting normally: instead, a white screen appears after power-on which says something like "Press spacebar to restore ChromeOS". I believe that it does let you know that this will wipe the user partition, after you've started. It does not tell you the key combination required to boot the machine. Loaning out a Chromebook in developer mode is therefore not recommended. I'm shopping for a replacement for the chromebook I'm typing this on. It cost $115, I've used it for a couple years, the second power cord seems to be giving up, and the screen is partially held together with electrical tape: I think it gives it a bit of character. I've had at least two other (cheap) Chromebooks before this. I don't think I'm in the market for another. At the moment, I'm probably looking for a (Linux) Dell XPS 13, or similar: I would appreciate any suggestions. [0] https://galliumos.org/ [1] https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton [2] https://github.com/dnschneid/crouton#what-about-dem-crostinis-though [3] https://spacevim.org/

dirkg 8y ago

Some counterpoints - - Crostini is only for a limited set of Chromebooks. I have an Acer 15 with Intel Broadwell, which is extremely powerful and not that old, but Google won't support it for whatever insane reason they might have - Chromebook keyboard is lacking. You cannot program without a del key - They aren't cheap. Only the low end low powered 2GB models are and they are unusable, as well as not supported by Crostini. For this kind of money I can get a Windows laptop with almost equiv battery life - or even better, a used Thinnkpad + Linux which would be better than almost anything for 1/2 the cost.

jamescostian 8y ago
> You cannot program without a del key As a programmer who switched to a mac (without a delete key), I also used to think the delete was crucial. I'm curious, what are you using the delete key for? I've only ever used it as a backspace-but-reverse when typing, and to delete things like files in GUIs. The workarounds for these issues are trivial (change your cursor's position for the typing issue, and GUIs respond to backspace with a modifier key), so I'm wondering what other (not-as-easily-emulatable) functionality the delete key gives
- epicide 8y ago
  By the way, Fn+backspace on a Mac does a delete. Not just in GUIs, either.
sridca 8y ago
> - or even better, a used Thinnkpad + Linux which would be better than almost anything for 1/2 the cost. I do have a Thinkpad (running NixOS), however the battery life sucks. 2 hours for P71 (or 4 hours for X1C6). And hardware support is not perfect (I simply cannot figure out yet how to connect my Bose QC headphones via bluetooth). So I have high hopes for chromebooks (like Pixel Slate) because then you can have best of the both worlds. The year of Linux desktop is arriving, but not as directly as we have all thought it would.
- beefield 8y ago

davidy123 8y ago

I was excited by this prospect mainly because of battery life, but I have a recent Thinkpad and with Ubuntu 18.10 battery life is quite good, even though I have 32GB and a zillion tabs open. This i7 Thinkpad is more expandable and serviceable and still cost less. Probably some of the improvements are due to ChromeOS Kernel improvements, so thanks for that!

z3t4 8y ago

I read about the Chromebooks being a huge market especially in education, so I bought a Chromebook and made a app targeted for education. The market is however a ghost town, it seems I'm at least 5 years behind, most old apps have 10ˇ5 users, but new apps, those only one or two years old, have less then 10ˇ2 users ... What happened? Are schools only using pre-installed apps? Or did they stop using Chromebooks? How does this market work!? Besides being only a Chrome browser, the Chromebook is actually very nice! It's fast and battery last for two or more days. It's perfect for browsing HN, but for developing I'm using another machine with Ubuntu. Also I have not got support for Android and this Crostini thing on my Chromebook. Ohh and you need a Google account to login, although both Apple and Microsoft does this now a days, so even if you bought your computer, you are not really owning it, just pre paid rent, unless you install another Linux distro on it.

danans 8y ago
> most old apps have 10ˇ5 users, but new apps, those only one or two years old, have less then 10ˇ2 users ... What happened? Are schools only using pre-installed apps? Schools and school systems don't buy software directly from app stores, like consumers do. Generally, they decide to use a particular piece of software based on public standards, best practices within the educational community, or academic research on efficacy. Then they will usually buy a site license or subscription that provides access for all their students. If you are trying to get schools to use your software, it probably makes sense to explain its value via the channels that schools are paying attention to.
pjmlp 8y ago
US education system mostly, so if you are located in another country, you aren't going to get much customers anyway.

sigzero 8y ago

The actual ChromeOS (not Chromium) in a VM would be nice to try things out.

remir 8y ago

I liked the Spotify progressive web app they demoed. I wish Mozilla would compete against ChromeOS and release a similar OS. Too bad FF OS is dead.