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Good sleep, good learning, good life (2012)
- dade_ 8y agoI just completely broke my sleep. I was in Hong Kong, then Mountain Standard Time and then back to Eastern. My doctor prescribed Zopiclone, so I used it the first couple of nights when I returned. For the first time in my adult life, I have been sleeping 8.5 hours a night. I was usually awake after 6 hours. Occasionally I could get 7.5 but generally with an interruption. It is going to take some time to get used to and I hope it lasts, but it feels great to make progress reading books on dry subjects on a weeknight or just being alert in the afternoon. We have so much to learn about the body and sleep.
- haskellandchill 8y agoUnfortunately sleeping pills are rarely sustainable, good luck.
- IChooseYou 8y agoI found zopiclone to be addictive. You have the most amazing sleep for the first few days when you take it. Then afterwards when you stop taking it, you get the absolute worst sleep: barely hitting REM, constantly waking up, difficulty falling asleep. I think: diphenhydramine or melatonin might be a safer bet for some people. Never take it more than a few days in a row.
- flatline 8y agoSome people also have luck with Magnesium L-Threonate
- ryall 8y agoYep, Magnesium works for me big time. I take a powdered form which seems a lot more effective than pills. Still wake up in the middle of the night sometimes but can get back to sleep easily without my brain switching into overdrive. Melatonin definitely knocked me out, but I woke up groggy feeling like I hadn't slept at all
- a008t 8y agoDo you take L-threonate or other versions? Have you tried stopping it - did things get worse than before you started?
- a008t 8y agoHave you been taking it? What has been your experience?
- sibeliuss 8y agoWhat is wrong with doctors these days :( There are a thousand natural tricks to helping get back on a regular sleep schedule without prescribing an addictive drug that actually breaks your sleep in the long run. (See: Ambien)
- jazoom 8y ago> What is wrong with doctors these days :( Disclaimer: I'm a doctor. It may be different where you are from, but patients are usually the ones who want a script for something and not to be told to put away their devices, stay away from coffee and alcohol, etc. Also, there's a difference between addiction and becoming dependent on taking a substance, which seems to be a common misunderstanding in this thread.
- andreygrehov 8y agoIf you can, get a membership at a local gym. After a few weeks visiting a gym I slept like a baby.
- chocolatebunny 8y agoDo you go to the gym at night before bed, or in the morning?
- jagtodeath 8y agoWhen I work out in the morning I sleep like a rock and can fall asleep as early in the evening as I would like. When I work out at night I usually feel energized afterwards and tend to stay up later.
- plahteenlahti 8y agoBoth actually work in improving the quality of your sleep and whether you should exercise in the morning or in the evening depends on your chronotype. However if you decide to exercise in the evening you should aim to be done with it at least 2 hours before your normal bedtime.
- andreygrehov 8y agoI did it in the morning, at 6am. The reason why "did" is because I now go to a swimming pool instead.
- quickthrower2 8y agoI assume any cardio exercise will do. No gym membership required.
- jagtodeath 8y agoFor me, weight lifting improves my sleep far more than cardio.
- vnorilo 8y ago
- charlietango92 8y agoso it was kind of implied, but i want to ask explicitly - those 2.5 extra hours of sleep had a noticeable impact in your days? If you had to qualify the experience beyond 'just being more alert,' how would you do so? Thanks!
- jpm_sd 8y agoI just read "Why We Sleep" which covers a lot of the same territory. Vital information, should be in the Human Brain Owner's Manual.
- spdionis 8y agoI'm lucky enough that I haven't cut on my sleep much during my adolescence or my college studies. Today I feel awful every time I sleep less than 7 hours, and moderately dysfunctional if I don't sleep 8 a few days in a row. By "awful" I mean that I just think slower. It's like playing a game with lag, not fun. I wonder if/how many people who claim they can sleep 6 hours a day and feel fine have just gotten so used to the lag that they don't notice it anymore. Only thing I'm afraid of is children...
- dmead 8y agowhat people mean when they "can" sleep only 6 hours a night is that it doesnm't get painful to be awake and talking. They are still going to be slow and have just gotten used to it.
- thedaemon 8y agoMy body really dislikes 8 or more hours of sleep. I've found the magic number for me is 7 hours of sleep. With this I wake up feeling good. 8 hours of sleep makes me tired all day. 6 hours is also better than 8 hours for me.
- arvinsim 8y agoI think it's because sleep cycles run at 90 minute intervals.
- deanCommie 8y agoI have a different journey with the exact same results. In my adolescence/college studies, I thought fast, and slept little. I could stay up all night with friends then go to class the next morning. I spent the first 5/6 years of my career being a top performer on 4 hours every weekday, and catching up on 8-10 hours of sleep over each weekend night. Then, 3 things happened almost at the same time: 1) I got a much tougher job that challenged me like I never had before (FAANG) 2) I turned 30 3) I lost the ability to sleep in on the weekends. I wake up at 8am now every day regardless of what time I go to bed. Until #3, I got by with coffee and still using weekends for recovery - way more coffee. #3 ruined it. I still got by - and was even successful. Then, #4) I got promoted. Now the challenges are out of this world, and I can't sustain my lifestyle any more. I'm struggling to adjust to going to bed early because my brain and all my instincts are still in the mode of "Nighttime is for creativity and fun! We can sleep when we're dead!" But it's starting to affect my work, which in turn is stressing me out, because I really love my job and I want to excel at it. The effects are just as you describe - lag. I'm slow. I'm not as smart as I used to be. So...gradually...i'm learning to force myself to sleep. I welcome tips. :S
- shittyadmin 8y ago> "We don't get enough sleep, and we are not going to "change our ways" because there are already too few hours in most people's days to do things they enjoy. Call it a sad fact of life because that's what it is" This honestly is spot on the way I think about it - I can sleep early, but who benefits from my day to day learning as an adult? My employer maybe? Me in some minor long term ways? Or I can stay up and do things I enjoy, wake myself up with an alarm every day and consume enough caffeine to bridge the gap. This way, I get more enjoyment out of my life in a very direct and measurable way. If 5-6 hours of sleep a night is enough to get paid, I'm not going to make a sacrifice that will cost me personally.
- Apocryphon 8y agoThe negative health impact is going to diminish your enjoyment of life.
- shittyadmin 8y agoI'm highly doubtful that it'll diminish my enjoyment of life by more than the 2.5 hours a day worth of enjoyment I wouldn't otherwise have. That's like adding a full month of time to every year. I could get hit by a bus and die tomorrow and I'd be damn glad I took that extra time for myself each and every day.
- rubicon33 8y agoI agree with you. Some people want to live well into their 80s and 90s. I look at most people in their 80s and 90s and cringe. Loads of pills. Walkers. Cognitive struggles. etc. I'm fine living until 65 if it was a full, happy, productive life. I don't need to live forever, nor do I want to.
- Apocryphon 8y agoBut low sleep is going to impact your perception during waking life. You’re not going to get the maximum cognitive productivity or the maximum emotional enjoyment out of life. It’s like working smarter vs. working harder.
- Apocryphon 8y agoAt the risk of starting a conversation that's more about general insomnia and tangential to the article, has anyone dealt with early morning insomnia? This article doesn't seem to mention it, but I'm wondering if resetting one's circadian rhythms will help.
- Afton 8y agoGo see a sleep doctor. 'Premature arousal' is the term for what I think you're describing. You wake up too early, and can't go back to sleep. There can be a few different things that cause this, so there's no one-size-fits-all treatment.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoI get this a lot. I tend to sleep for between four and six hours, so if I fall asleep at 22:00 I’m awake at 04:00 it earlier. This isn’t so bad because I’m at work at 06:00 anyway. But it’s no fun if I sleep earlier. I recently went to doc and said as much. Got prescription for 25 temazepam to take as needed in the AM to get me back to sleep. I don’t use them much, but knowing they’re there helps a lot. My other tactics are: jog after work and a few sets on the heavy dumbbells. No food or drink for two hours prior to retiring. Plus, I keep a bottle of liquid melatonin (sub lingual) and a phased release melatonin tablet (swallowed) by my bed. I’ll otfen have a dose of the liquid melatonin plus a tablet as I lay down and read a book in bed. The liquid acts rapidly, tablet less so. I find this combination of food restriction, plus excercise, plus melatonin, plus reading novels, gives me waaaaaay better sleep than reading HN all night ;)
- ClassyJacket 8y agoYes. If you are using ANY stimulants, stop (obviously talk to your doctor if they're prescription). They can mess with your sleep beyond just keeping you awake at bed time.
- tren 8y agoYes, I'm still dealing with it and have been dealing with it for over a year. GP says it's related to depression, but I think it's a chicken and the egg situation. I have tried so many things to correct it, I'm starting a CBT-I course with a specialist next week, I really hope that sleep restriction kicks my rhythm back to normal.
- dang 8y agoDiscussed in 2013: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 and in 2010: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945
- drc0 8y agotldr, do not make kids
- ilamont 8y agoDoes anybody else split their sleep into two periods? I've done this out of necessity at several points in my life, first more than 20 years ago when I worked at a job that required me to get up at 3 in the morning and then more recently when I find I do my best work at night (last night, for instance, working at 1 am) but have to get up at 6:30 to help my kids get ready for school. I work from home and can set my own schedule, so I can go back to sleep for a few hours in the mid morning but I am not sure if this is optimal in terms of getting enough sleep or the "right" kind of sleep.
- CarVac 8y agoSometimes I take a 20 minute nap at lunch time. Other times I'll go to sleep right after dinner, awaken around 11 PM, do stuff until 2, and then sleep until 7. I always feel well rested on days like either of those.
- davidgil 8y agoIf you're able to work on your own schedule it definitely works. I'm most productive in the morning and at night so I like to work from 7am to about 2-3pm. Then I'll take a nap from 3:30-6:30, and work from 7p to 1 or 2 am and go to sleep again. I'm able to be very productive on this schedule but obviously not everyone is able to follow a schedule like this.
- FooHentai 8y agoI've done it for short stretches (couple weeks), and found I needed more sleep overall to get close to the same waking clarity as when I sleep for a single period. So I'd need 2 x 4.5h blocks to get close to how I'd feel with 1 x 8h stretch. Even then, only close. Couldn't quite get it to feel the same and definitely not better. TBH I think most of the 'off' feeling about it is in how it broke my normal perception of days and time passing. I spent a lot more time having to consider where I was, temporally, and how it lined up to anyone I needed to interact with.
- Rebelgecko 8y agoThere's a decent amount of evidence that prior to the 17th century people in many parts of Europe would break their sleep up into 2 chunks of about equal length.
- jeremieb 8y agoIf you get a 403 error (as I do), here's the latest web archive capture: https://web.archive.org/web/20181017190008/https://www.supermemo.com/en/articles/sleep https://web.archive.org/web/20181017190008/https://www.super...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- movedx 8y agoThank you. I really should donate to the Web Archive because it's just such a useful resource.
- rz2k 8y agoAn easy way to contribute a small amount is through Amazon Smile (0.5% of your Amazon purchases): https://smile.amazon.com/gp/chpf/homepage/ref=smi_se_scyc_srch_stsr?q=internet+archive https://smile.amazon.com/gp/chpf/homepage/ref=smi_se_scyc_sr...
- movedx 8y agoI didn't even know that existed. Cool. Thanks for the heads up.
- ambicapter 8y agoHonestly, quantity of sleep pales in comparison to the ability to focus, for me (I get enough sleep. I go to the gym. I still can't focus).
- PascLeRasc 8y agoHave you ever tried L-Theanine? It's a wonder drug for me.
- lexpar 8y agoI would like to chime in that I also very much enjoy L-Theanine. In addition to (I think) helping me focus, it has an even more pronounced effect on anxiety. When I take L-Theanine and have some obtrusive thought -- cooked up especially to make me anxious by some adversarial force deep in my sub conscious -- I can pretty easily let it go. Most noticeably, the strong 'pit in the stomach' feeling that both signals and reinforces anxiety is absent. I would encourage nearly anyone to try it. It's an amino acid found in the highest concentrations in green tea. If you've ever had a couple cups of green tea and noticed you feel relaxed and focused, you might want to try an L-Theanine supplement.
- shostack 8y agoHow do dosages from a couple cups of green tea compare with a supplement's dosage? Are the effects comparable?
- jger15 8y agoOh weird, link is broken
- vonnik 8y agoMods: This link is broken and giving a 403 error.
- neves 8y agoThe Supermemo is an excellent resource for learning and memory. Full of top notch content.
- mjberg01 8y agoHi - I'm one of the co-founders of Somni. We've built a product to address chronic sleep deprivation https://puresomni.com https://puresomni.com Our bundled sleep therapy program includes sleep coaching, education packs, sleep health products and sleep tracking to help you get better sleep so you're healthier and more productive. please email at matt@puresomni.com if you have any questions.
- fluxon 8y agoStill 403 as of 18:31PDT. server fell over. :(hope it comes back:)
- k__ 8y ago"We don't get enough sleep, and we are not going to "change our ways" because there are already too few hours in most people's days to do things they enjoy" Speak for yourself. In sleep about 9h a day.
- sireat 8y agoWhat are some good options for tracking your sleep quality(deep sleep etc)? Sleep clinic would be the most precise but personally I think it induces its own bias as we sleep best in our own beds. Hopefully we sleep in our own beds most of the time. So what consumer choices are there? Apple Watch is what I read in this thread but any other fitness trackers/phones with reasonable accuracy ? I am very doubtful of just a phone app accuracy without some on body sensors.
- erfgh 8y agoIf you don't feel sleepy during the next day, you had a good sleep. Nothing further needed. Why do people today want to insert a gadget/app into everything they do? Too much disposable income? Try investing it for your retirement or something.
- sireat 8y agoIt's not quite as simple as that if the many posts on importance of good sleep here on HN indicate anything. Sometimes you might wake from 7.5 hours of sleep groggy and with a headache and sometimes you might feel fresh after 6 hours. If good sleep is one of the most important things in prolonging and improving your quality of life then it would make sense to take advantage of modern technology to track it. What's the point of investing extra $100 for retirement if you do not live to enjoy it? Besides, I live in a country where retirement is far from certain. I would at least like to know the optimal time for waking up.
- erfgh 8y agoOptimal time for waking up is whenever you wake up without an alarm clock.
- sireat 8y agoHow many people have the luxury of waking up without an alarm clock ? Also waking up without an alarm clock can sometimes lead to oversleeping which is not optimal either. Ever wake up groggy and with a headache on a Sunday morning after 10 hours of sleep?
- solipsism 8y agoThe arrogance in this thread is incredible. Legions of people pointing to pop science books and talking about how horrible their life would be if they weren't getting their 8 hours. Phrases like "have some respect for yourself" and "you're not getting the most out of life". Do what works for you, but do remember that your life is just another anecdote. Stop telling others how to live their lives. I stay up way too late all the time. My sleep is irregular. I rarely get as much sleep as I would if I went to bed at 10pm every night. And yet I'm extremely healthy, I pop out of bed every morning, and I'm always in a good mood. I don't get colds, I don't have memory problems... I don't have any of the horrible effects you all are sure I must have because your book says I must.
- erfgh 8y agoWell, you will have them sooner or later. Aging changes you dramatically. But I agree with you, if you get less sleep than generally recommended and you feel fine, then there is little point in sleeping more.
- YuukiRey 8y agoI disagree. How would you know that you're fine? There are studies that support the claim that people quickly adapt to their sleep deprived self and regard that as the new norm. That's precisely one of the dangers: that you are not aware of your sleep deprivation. Obviously, many detrimental effects of sleep deprivation only kick in after many years. And then there are the outliers. Just because you can cross the street blindfolded with headphones on without checking traffic doesn't mean it can generally be considered safe.
- solipsism 8y agoAnd there's not nearly enough evidence to establish the causal links that you are so certain of. I get that it "makes sense" to you. It fits in with your worldview. But that's not how science works. "Studies have shown" is the classic hint that "this person has no clue that they're talking about". Show me specific reproduced experimental studies with proper controls, talk about effect size, and then there would be no argument. Such proof has failed to arise for countless health trends in the past, no matter how intuitive they may have been.
- niceworkbuddy 8y agoWhat did you have done to the page... Now it's dead.
- sand33pn 8y agoThe article link gives a 403 error. Any other link? Edit: http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm this seems to be the same article.
- ThisIsSavo 8y ago403 forbidden. :(
- ernsheong 8y agoIt's back up. Should it go down again: https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3dcba/xPSsOwLXl1bzgzN8fpun https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3d...
- tuxguy 8y agoThe link is down, does anyone know of a mirror/backup ?
- tuxguy 8y agoFound one : https://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep2000.htm https://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep2000.htm
- ernsheong 8y agoShould the page go down again: https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3dcba/xPSsOwLXl1bzgzN8fpun https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3d...
- z3t4 8y agoIf you visit HN after midnight- This should be the top story
- ramoz 8y agoI fast and maintain a ketogenic diet. Its 5:45am as Im typing this. Ive been up since 4. Went to bed at 11. Currently on hour 35 of a fast that I plan to end mid morning. Unless I still feel "great"... I have high mental clarity currently. I had high mental clarity when I went to sleep. I did have issues sleeping, but this is nothing new on a ketogenic and fasting state. From the vast research I've done, sleeping may be more important on a high-insulin-fluctuating diet. However, when the body and brain are fat adapted (less insulin), there is a constant fuel source. The brain operates very efficiently on ketones. Also, important to note that when fasting and doing keto, you must supplement electrolytes. There is a lot more to all of this and the notion behind the importance of sleep. Anecdotally, diet proves to be more important for me. Do your own research. related: https://www.alzheimers.net/diabetes-of-the-brain/ https://www.alzheimers.net/diabetes-of-the-brain/
- lhinds 8y agoI intermittent fast everyday, apart from when I run long distances (more than 10 miles). I also do a 24 hour (sometimes more) on a Monday which is when I don't run at all. Doing this has helped my sleep so much and my productivity has gone through the roof. I don't do ketogenic though, I believe a good source of carbs in our diet is fine. I tend to get mine from sweet potatoes. I stay well away from refined sugars though.
- ramoz 8y agoI agree that good sources of carbs are fine as well. The human body is amazing such that there is no end-all be-all diet for it and its able to adapt efficiently to healthy diets. I actually do a high-glycemic (talking baked sugary madness) load/refeed around intense workouts every once and awhile; also keeps me sane.
- YuukiRey 8y ago> From the vast research I've done, sleeping may be more important on a high-insulin-fluctuating diet. Could you link to some of your peer-reviewed articles in moderate-to-high impact journals? I'd be really interested in hearing about that vast body of research.
- frankida 8y agoI found a 2017 update version of this article. http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm
- __initbrian__ 8y agoI've been having trouble getting the page to load. I noticed I'm not alone. Anyone care to speculate on why and how I can avoid this on my sites in the future? I'm guessing someone in devops or sysadmin or with experience would have a good guess