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Air India Express 737 Hits ILS, Damages Wall on Departure, Flies for 4 Hours
- irrational 8y agoIt wasn't clear from the article. What kind of wall did they hit?
- briandear 8y agoThey hit a wall and the Instrument Landing System at the end of the runway
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoThat doesn't really answer irrational's question...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- cycrutchfield 8y agoIt's in the linked Twitter thread. It was a brick wall. https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status/1050581391828836352 https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status/1050581391828836352
- williamscales 8y agoGood grief that's a lot of damage, how come they didn't immediately land?
- ams6110 8y agoWell a single layer, unreinforced brick wall isn't really that strong, especially near the top edge. It's perhaps plausible they didn't feel anything or at least nothing very alarming. I mean, the gear presumably still retracted properly and deployed later for landing, so it wasn't damaged too badly.
- djsumdog 8y agoYea I'm interested in seeing what the passengers say. If they just heard a bump or didn't suspect a thing, the plane may have just graised it and the pilots didn't notice. If the passengers heard a noticeable sound or reported concerns and were dismissed, that's grounds for negligence.
- userbinator 8y agoThe other photo posted here shows that it was a rather thin brick wall too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18205837 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18205837 I guess the majority of the damage was done by the large steel antennae it hit before the wall.
- lbriner 8y agoI don't know about you but I hear plenty of clunks and wirring on planes during take off and landing, sometimes uncomfortably loud and even though I know a bit about planes, I don't know if it's normal or not. (I'm alive so I assume it is normal!) One takeoff I was on, the plane was vibrating like crazy, like I've never heard before but after a few minutes, it stopped and nothing happened!
- gumby 8y agoThere's a photo in the article -- a brick wall.
- inferiorhuman 8y agoThe pilots hit a very short wall. https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/C99D/production/_103831615_photo-2018-10-12-11-04-13.jpg https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/C99D/production/...
- decasia 8y agoThe obvious mystery is why you would keep flying for so long after an incident like this...
- sleavey 8y agoMaybe burning fuel to reduce the chance of explosion during the emergency landing? That's quite common.
- mattzito 8y agoBoeing planes can dump fuel, iirc.
- btgeekboy 8y agoThe 737 (subject of this article) cannot.
- amelius 8y agoThat's quite a design-flaw then.
- mulmen 8y agoCare to provide your credentials to make such a claim? Especially around one of the most widely used and longest produced airliners in human history.
- davidw 8y agohttps://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a20630 https://www.newyorker.com/cartoon/a20630
- drharby 8y agoSorry boeing engineers didnt have you at the table when they were choosing features to optimize for, you know, toggling through priorities and costs of features in terms of thrust, drag, weight, power, etc.
- gefh 8y agoImpressive resilience by the airframe. Good job Boeing.
- nirav72 8y agoAir India, an old antiquated government subsidized airline that should die.
- davidw 8y agoSounds a lot like Alitalia.
- praneshp 8y agoRight, there have been no incidents in privately run airlines over the past few years.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- SOLAR_FIELDS 8y agoThe government has actually been trying to kill it for years but no one wants it: https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/31/investing/air-india-privatization-fails/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/31/investing/air-india-privati...
- guiriduro 8y agoThis might provide the government the opportunity to shutter it for good.
- chx 8y agoTrust me, if procedures are found at fault, it will die if the EASA-FAA-CASA bans them.
- 14 8y agoI have been trying to go over how this could happen. The damage to the wall seems so severe that I would image even over the sound of the engine the pilot would hear and notice that they had hit a wall. Flying the plane at this point would be risking their life. The first thing that came to my mind was the only reason a pilot would risk his life is if his life was already at risk and if he had been drinking when he hit the wall he would face many year in jail I assume for putting lives at risk. In a panic says to himself the plane is damaged but I know it can still fly and takes off without a plan really but perhaps just to let the alcohol he had leave his system. I hate to speculate here on HN. This is just crazy to me and I really look forward to hearing more details as to how his happened.
- codeisawesome 8y agoHow will the alcohol ‘leave his system’ in the 4 hours it takes to fly to Dubai from India?
- ehnto 8y agoPilots would have to blow 0.0 but that doesn't mean zero evidence of alcohol. In 4 hours you can metabolise around 4 standard drinks out of your bloodstream. It's not like drugs where any trace is bad because it's illegal. That said, I'm not sure I am on board with the explanation. It could just be that with everything going on in a cockpit it wasn't noticed.
- Scoundreller 8y agoDoes reduced air pressure speed up the removal of alcohol via breathing? If a fever can, wouldn’t alcohol do the same?
- bcOpus 8y agoA fever is, at it’s core, an increase in metabolic rate. Your hypothalamus is telling your body that it’s temperature set point is higher than usual, and it takes energy to raise your temperature. I don’t see how a difference in air pressure would have a similar effect.
- smaili 8y agoIf anything this is great free advertisement for Boeing's quality.
- sjg007 8y agoAs a pilot once told me: "If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going"
- mprev 8y agoBrand loyalty is an amazingly powerful thing. I wonder if anyone says, “I won’t be there Gus if it isn’t an Airbus”.
- jackweirdy 8y agoTime’s a plenty in an a320
- lmedinas 8y agoand the quality of Air India pilots too :) I mean... seriously how bad can you be to put so many people at risk.
- userbinator 8y agoThe AVherald article: http://avherald.com/h?article=4bedd321&opt=0 http://avherald.com/h?article=4bedd321&opt=0 As some of the others have mentioned, the reason the plane survived is likely because that was not a pressurised area. If it had breached the pressure vessel they would've noticed it very quickly (lack of pressurisation).
- InTheArena 8y agoNot really - If there had a been a gash in pressurization, they would have caught it on the way up. The 737 is a _tank_. It has more or less the same wing load as a F-16. It takes a lot to shake around - it's every bit the 1950s build 707 chassis, and like the old 50s lathe - it can take a hit and keep going.
- inferiorhuman 8y agoDon't the NGs have a nasty habit of splitting in two on hard landings (KI172, 4C8250, BW523, JT904, AA331)?
- wahern 8y agoPlenty of 737's have had explosive depressurization with injuries or fatalities, most recently this year https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43818752 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43818752 and one of the most famous incidents (in the U.S.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243 Both were from fatigue, but fatigue doesn't have to be a gradual thing; it could come from a single hit that causes the pressure vessel to fail at altitude. See the whole list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Not...
- jacquesm 8y agoAnd yet, it landed!
- 8y ago
- basicplus2 8y agoLets hope they scrap that aircraft.. i could not find a reference but i remember an incident where an aircraft only scraped its backend on take off and repairs were made, but years later the aircraft was lost with everyone on board after cracks propagated up and around and the aircraft lost its whole tale section
- darren_ 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_611 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Airlines_Flight_611 22 years later!
- hugh-avherald 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123 Worst single-aircraft disaster in history.
- aaronmdjones 8y agoThose incidents (CAL611, JAL123) only happened because the repair was completed improperly to begin with and subsequently missed by every inspection. There's no reason the aircraft can't be properly repaired, and be as strong as it was when it was delivered. The Boeing Structural Repair Manual is very precise. It was just ignored.
- nutcracker46 8y agoWho wants to wager that the pilots did an aviation version of the five stages of grief, with some help from passenger / flight attendant reports? FO: Tower said we hit something, may have damage. Capt: Just close, we'll be okay. FA: We heard a thump, and so did the passengers. CA: Just a noise, we'll be okay. Dispatch on ACARS: You hit the localizer and wall past the far end, you morons. Descend, lower your cabin diff pressure, and GTF to Mumbai. CA: How do we explain this? FO: Ask the passengers for newspapes, we must find new jobs..
- FabHK 8y agoNot inconceivable that they decided to keep flying to overwrite the CVR (assuming it was the old 120 minute type). Given the apparent structural damage, that was a risky decision.
- sorenjan 8y agoCan we take a moment and reflect on the fact that all of this data is freely available to anyone? I can sit in front of my computer, or anywhere with my phone, and follow planes around the world with an accuracy of a few meters, and replay the data at a later date. The various flight trackers all use thousands of receivers around the world, and most of them probably use the same kind of SDR chip that was originally designed for USB TV and radio receivers. http://rtlsdr.org/#history_and_discovery_of_rtlsdr http://rtlsdr.org/#history_and_discovery_of_rtlsdr
- worldexplorer 8y agoI thought they track things like small vibrations in plane body due to such incidents. How would they detect Bird strike(https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike) if hitting wall go unnoticed? Don't airports have sensors and cameras for such situations to alert Air traffic control immediately?
- nmstoker 8y agoQuestion for professional pilots here: does this feel like normal behaviour for a pilot? From my limited experience of pilots, this seems entirely unlike the kind of behaviour you'd expect - they're usually conservative when it comes to safety or is that just the projected image to reassure the public?!
- raverbashing 8y agoNo, it isn't normal behavior. And it is not unknown that some airlines are more lax than others.
- stragulus 8y agoYou mean LAX?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- yutyut 8y agoNo. Go-around and assess the damage on the deck.
- travisjungroth 8y agoI used to work as a flight instructor and flew corporate. I’ve flown small airplanes with a bunch of airline pilots, whatever that is worth. This does not seem like normal behavior from an airline pilot at all. I can see about 10% of private pilots doing something like this. It would probably be someone who has been flying a long time and gotten way too comfortable. Things always work out, so why not this time? The difference with an airline is its incredibly public flying. Even if the pilots disregard everyone’s safety (including their own) they know that they’ll be caught. You do something dumb and it’s going to be on the news, even if it all works out. How many of us can say that about or jobs? The fact that the crew thought that this was a risk worth taking reflects really poorly on the safety culture of that airline. They thought that flying an airplane that was compromised some unknown amount was worth keeping the schedule going (or maybe people just wouldn’t find out?). That idea got informed somehow.
- sn41 8y agoHonest question: why aren't pilots forced to take alcohol tests before flights? There was some JetBlue incident about 10 years ago, IIRC.
- toomuchtodo 8y agoAre forced alcohol tests given anywhere?
- sn41 8y agoNot that I know of. Mandatory drug testing in sports is now common. When operating heavy machinery, and when a lot of lives are at stake, I feel some safety procedures are called for.
- kalleboo 8y agoIn some places bus drivers have mandatory breathalyzer testing at the start of their shift.
- LeonM 8y agoThey are, but not for every flight. I've been told by pilots flying in Europe they get randomly selected for a breathalyzer test once every 20 flights or so.
- justboxing 8y agoJust saw the pics of the damage on the twitter thread linked-to in the article. See below. https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status/1050595274869993474 https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status/1050595274869993474 Looks quite severe. I'm impressed the plane flew for 3 hours without getting destablized and crashing.... Air India has the worst safety reputation in India, and several accidents / incidents. I flew Spice Jet a few times over the last few weeks when I was there visiting. Spice Jet is like India's Virgin America. Service was excellent and I did not experience any issues while flying.
- nitinreddy88 8y agoThe most surprising part is, trichy to mumbai takes hardly 1hr flight time. What caused them to take 4hrs? In 4hrs, they could have landed in Dubai itself easily Being Indian, I agree with statement about AirIndia. I would never fly in AirIndia even if the ticket price is too low, laughably they usually cost way above than any other competitors.
- mbell 8y agoLooks like they went halfway across the Arabian Sea before turning around, strange... https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ix611#1e2da319 https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ix611#1e2da319
- nitinreddy88 8y agoWhat caused them to retun in half way? Report says Trichy airport informed pilot about posssible damage to plane. Pilot ignored it saying everything is green. What happened in 4hrs to divert back to Mumbai is still mystery. Will be interesting to see full report
- oe 8y agoIs it possible that Dubai refused to let them land with a flyable but potentially pretty broken plane?
- outside1234 8y agoYet another reason not to fly Air India, just in case you needed another beyond price, on-time performance, service, and cleanliness.
- nutcracker46 8y agoIt wouldn't be the first time a crew errs in calculating their takeoff performance and uses too low a thrust or flap setting. Everyone on that plane is lucky to be alive, as others have died after similar takeoffs.
- dorfsmay 8y agoToo low a thrust? I thought that on airliners pilots input runway length, altitude and wind strength and direction, and the computer optimized the thrust accordingly?
- dingaling 8y agoYes, the autothrottle commands the thrust as calculated for a Flex take-off. But it's only correct if the input parameters are correct. There was a Sunwing 737 which bent the runway lights at Belfast in 2017 because the pilots had entered the wrong temperature variable: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/temperature-error-behind-sunwing-737s-near-overrun-441346/ https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/temperature-error...
- mbell 8y agoUnless I'm misinterpreting the satellite image its ~150m from the end of the runway to that wall[0] and it also looks a bit downhill from the runway to the wall[1]. I don't see how this could happen without the pilots noticing; they would have been skimming the ground well past the end of the runway. [0] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tiruchirapalli+International+Airport+TRZ/@10.7652872,78.705696,232m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x3baa8b30609d9727:0xa2f4f10a6d8add6c!8m2!3d10.7603678!4d78.7088693 https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tiruchirapalli+Internation... [1] https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status/1050581391828836352 https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status/1050581391828836352
- kijin 8y agoPerhaps they were slightly airborne, like 0.5m above the ground, but ground-based instruments recorded the plane as still being "on the ground" (i.e. same altitude as the runway) because of the downhill slope? If they really were on the ground, the pilots would have continued to feel the vibration of the wheels against the ground, a very clear indication that they aren't flying. I'm even more surprised that the plane could land on its own wheels despite the huge gash in the fuselage. Do landing gears retract so quickly, or was the wall simply not wide enough?
- improbable22 8y agoThere appear to be two holes knocked in the wall, spaced about the right distance to be made by the two sets of wheels. I'm not surprised that the wheels are strong enough to knock a few bricks over & still work fine. I also think the wall is lower than the ILS gear, so probably that is what made the gash in the belly of the plane. Amazed that nothing serious was cut. I cannot believe the pilots were completely unaware, I mean just reaching the end of the runway without having pulled up must be a never-in-your-career kind of scary moment.
- sokoloff 8y agoI have no first-hand information, but I think this is going to turn out to be a reduced thrust takeoff with the crew being unaware of that (meaning they screwed up). Airliners have enough power to lose an engine at a decision speed (V1) while still on the runway and on the one remaining engine continue to accelerate on the runway to rotation and eventually liftoff speed and still clear obstacles. There is no mention of an engine loss causing this issue (and surely the airplane wouldn't launch for FL360 with one engine INOP), so this almost has to be a mis-set takeoff thrust accident as, with both engines set for proper takeoff thrust, it's rare to use more than 2/3 of the runway and the initial climb is brisk due to the large excess of power a turbojet engine has at sea level.
- nitinreddy88 8y agoIts mystery how plane survived such a huge impact Airport perimeter damage: https://mobile.twitter.com/ANI/status/1050582092688629760 https://mobile.twitter.com/ANI/status/1050582092688629760
- usrusr 8y agoThe landing gear is built to withstand hitting a concrete runway with a 737, whereas a thin brick wall can be brought down with just a hammer. It's like rock-paper-scissors: wheels beat wall, ILS antenna beats fuselage skin.
- IronSoul 8y agoPilot did not follow the climbing trajectory, too low and hit the boundary wall. Nothing surprising in India where everyone follows his/her rules, if such thing called rules exist. Looks like pilot was flying as if he is driving on Indian road, a dent or a tear here and there is not a problem, as long as engine is running. Finally, Indian sky has become a reflection of Indian roads, what a shame!
- murukesh_s 8y agoI think it's not appropriate to generalize. How many such incidents happen?
- solids 8y agoJust look at the numbers. Indian aviation doesn't kill more thousands due to the great work that Airbus (mostly) has done to keep poor airmanship killing people. But at the end of the day, look at incidents in India and it's clear: perhaps revert to trains. Yes, they have a poor record too, but proportional to numbers of journeys/passengers to death or accident, minor compared to Indian air carriers.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- gandutraveler 8y agoWhy is there a brick wall so close to runaway?
- TheOtherHobbes 8y agoBecause most pilots can fly professionally enough not to hit it.
- lolc 8y agoThere are failures modes a pilot has no chance of resolving.
- jimktrains2 8y agoThere are worse places to take off/land. Midway (MDW) has very little distance from the runway to houses and highway. Princess Juliana International Airport on Sint Maarten (SXM) has very little distance from the end of the runway to the ocean. Gibraltar International Airport (GIB) is also basically on the water. Overrunning the runway is often considered avoidable from my limited understanding. Planes are flight worthy under _a lot_ of issues. Even single engine failure or engine fire after V1 (the speed at which you can't abort/reject takeoff without overrunning the runway) isn't cause to abort/reject takeoff. With landing, the plane needs to touch down early enough and at the correct speed to stay on the runway. Overrunning the runway is never considered a "good" thing. Rejected takeoffs that shouldn't have been and bad landings are often causes of death. They're expected to not happen.
- azernik 8y agoUsually? Because there's an urban area with people and highways and houses past the runway. As far as I can tell this wasn't unusually close to the runway, the plane just stayed on the ground far past the end of the runway.
- rhn_mk1 8y agoI hate articles introducing three-letter-mysteries and leaving the readers in confusion. To add insult to injury, none of the comments seem to acknowledge that the topic is impentrable. What is the mysterious ILS that was hit? Even after reading the Wikipedia article, I only have a vague idea - seems to be a radar system, both on ground and in the air. Did the plane hit a radar tower?
- briancollins 8y agoILS stands for instrument landing system. It's a set of antennae that produce radio signals to guide the aircraft to the runway. The plane must have struck one of those antennae.
- egeozcan 8y agoI think it depends on the audience and in this case the site is flightradar24.com. I also had to google that BTW.
- AdrianB1 8y agoThe article is very clear for pilots and people with knowledge in aircraft industry, it is meant for them. ILS, ADS-B, stuff that is basic domain knowledge. There are strange things in the article, like how a plane with severe damage was allowed to raise to 36,000 where catastrophic decompression is possible (like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123), but the basic information is there and clear.
- YetAnotherNick 8y agoAs other response mentioned what it is, look at this image for get an idea how it looks: https://www.airteamimages.com/---__-_94189_large.html https://www.airteamimages.com/---__-_94189_large.html. It is present on the entry side of most runway.
- close04 8y agoI think that the audience most interested in such stories especially from this source is familiar with the terminology so they don't waste time detailing it. How many articles posted here on HN tell you what a CPU is? Or a pointer? Or a container? And that's just to pick a few common terms. News about a certain topic will build on the assumption that the basic concepts related to it are already known to the reader.
- YetAnotherNick 8y agoIt looks like the plane couldn't properly take off(likely overloaded), and it's not just an overrun. See the speed graph in the post, and the fact that the gears were retracted that low.
- FabHK 8y agoI don’t think we have enough information to make that statement yet. Could be they forgot to set flaps, could be they miscalculated TO speeds, could be they misconfigured auto throttle... As usual, need to wait for investigation and report.
- YetAnotherNick 8y agoNow we have that: http://www.ptinews.com/news/10109087_Air-India-Express-plane-possibly-overloaded--officials.html http://www.ptinews.com/news/10109087_Air-India-Express-plane...
- jnsaff2 8y agoA similar incident that happened with a bigger plane that completed a 13h flight: http://avherald.com/h?article=48c78b3a http://avherald.com/h?article=48c78b3a