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Would it kill companies to be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues? I feel like "Hey, we're unable to pay our bills unless we can better monetize our

Would it kill companies to be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues? I feel like "Hey, we're unable to pay our bills unless we can better monetize our product" comes across a lot more honest and trust-worthy than this "We're improving user experience! Trust us!" pride-and-accomplishment nonsense that everyone keeps regurgitating. We're not preschoolers, the Internet can spot marketing slogans a mile away.

ethbro 8y ago
For reference and so people can be outraged without RTFA, here was the original close comment: -- joaofnfernandes (2 months ago) "I know that this can feel like a nuisance, but we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward. As far as I can tell, the docs don't need changes, so I'll close this issue, but feel free to comment."
- TylerE 8y ago
  Has there ever been a change to "improve user experience" that has _actually_ improved user experience? (Looking at you, Google.)
  - Deimorz 8y ago
    http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ "In our quest to improve the service for you, the user, we're making it worse. It was great before. It's going to be terrible now, but you're going to love the changes. We asked our investors and they said you're very excited about it being less good, which is great news for you."
  - travisjungroth 8y ago
    A ton! But they just don’t usually call it that. 90% of changes just make things better for the user. 10% make things worse, but they’re obvious and honest and we’re okay with it. And then 1% is the stuff like this. The Netflix/Qwikster you’re paying less but more debacle. The EA “sense of pride and accomplishment”. The Netflix (wait, why are they here twice?) show recommendations that aren’t ads that’s happening right now.
    - ThisIs_MyName 8y ago
      > The Netflix/Qwikster you’re paying less but more debacle What did I miss?
      - MarkyC4 8y ago
        7 years ago, Netflix decided to split into streaming (Netflix) and DVDs by mail (Qwikster). It didn't last long
        zwily 8y ago
        It sort of did... The DVD portion of Netflix is now at dvd.com.
    - pluma 8y ago
      Or Amazon's "Prime costs more now but it also includes Amazon Video which was so popular we couldn't get anyone to pay for it extra".
      - Accacin 8y ago
        I recently noticed that Amazon Prime in the UK has Parks and Recreation AND Seinfeld, which Netflix doesn't have. Worth it!
        ethbro 8y ago
        Amazon Prime seems like it pulled out the checkbook for syndicated series. It's also got a lot of old HBO stuff. Which makes sense if you've got a pile of money but are trying to bootstrap a streaming service. I expect most of that will disappear when it comes up for renewal and they've built out their original content (in the same way it did for Netflix).
- karlshea 8y ago
  but feel free to comment. i.e. "We do not give one single fuck what you think about this decision, and will not be reading any of your replies."
imglorp 8y ago
What's next? Opt-out phone-home, telemetry, crash reporting, quality analytics, whatever you call it. That's my prediction. My Synology personal file server started nagging about enabling telemetry and needing a privacy notice to store my files on my drive on my network. Screw that.
- drdeadringer 8y ago
  I use a Synology personal server, but an older one. I have been considering upgrading to a more modern version. Do you remember about when this nagging began? Was it related to a firmware upgrade or was it "right out of the box"?
  - proactivesvcs 8y ago
    I think I first saw it after installing DSM 6.2
  - tw04 8y ago
    It's literally a one time prompt. I think calling it nagging is a bit extreme.
    - a254613e 8y ago
      At least for me the prompt isn't a one time thing, unless you consent to enabling telemetry. I get asked whether I want to enable it all the time when logging in.
      - imglorp 8y ago
        Yes, you can disable it forever [1]. Oh and there's actually a tiny "skip" on the nag screen in dull contrast, more user hostility. It's the concept I object to, though: If I pay for it, I should not be the product. And a privacy notice on something that's by definition supposed to be private. 1. Control Panel -> Info -> Device Analytics. https://www.reddit.com/r/synology/comments/8mdioc/device_analytics_whats_this_and_how_can_i_disable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/synology/comments/8mdioc/device_ana...
MBCook 8y ago
No kidding. “Improve the user experience“ is incredibly nebulous and non-obvious. IF there is actually a benefit to this why not just list it? We all know why. There isn’t a benefit to the end-user.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  as soon as you see nonsense business speak like that you know things are going downhill. see also, netflix, and twitter lately. I really don't know why they bother uttering or writing those kinds of words. They contain no information, nobody is fooled by the lie. It is a waste of their time.
  - sopooneo 8y ago
    I thought the same way until I worked with lots of types of people. The vast majority seem to much prefer BS, even blatant BS to honesty that is even the least bit blunt. I think part of it is that since everyone exaggerates, actual blunt truths are assumed to also be a positive spin, which would put their reality in the toilet.
    - shoulderfake 8y ago
      Majority of people out there are complete idiots, Im not trying to be rude either. Very few people think for themselves.
      - darkst4r 8y ago
        Hard truth
      - balladeer 8y ago
        I wouldn't call them idiots. They just are not as exposed to the concept of online privacy as a lot of us are. We might be on the other side of table in many other ways, or idiots as you put it. Like the way my doctor friends avoid some OTC drugs that I never even think twice before taking, or some food, or some ready made edibles. I have a friend in textile industry and when he buys clothes it's a whole new level and makes me wonder what the hell I have been wearing so far. It amazes me how he sees through all those "Giza cotton" tag-lines and gimmick features of breathability and what not that are usually followed by a (™). Can we all not learn everything from The Internet? No, we can't and it does not make any of us an idiot.
jcroll 8y ago
Does the internet always have to throw a fit every time a company tries to add a little monetization to what is an essentially free service?
- yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
  We should throw a fit everytime they lie about it, yes
- TAForObvReasons 8y ago
  Do companies always have to gaslight users by suggesting that ads, trackers, malware and other features are "user-enhancing"? Monetization is OK, and in fact is a good thing in many cases, but trying to couch it in BS irritates many people.
- hellosputnik 8y ago
  The internet does not always throw a fit every time a company tries to add a little monetization to what is an essentially free service. The community is expressing a desire for companies to be be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues (i.e., monetization). Refer to the post you responded to for more information.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  It is the lying we throw a fit about, mostly. Personally though I would MUCH prefer to actually pay for things than to have free things "monetized".
- deleted 8y ago
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- ckocagil 8y ago
  Docker isn't a service. It's an easily replaceable software that is dominant due to the network effect. All the hard work was done by the Linux kernel before Docker existed.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Haha yes. The truth is that every critic of your service will do that if you monetize. It's definitely one key thing to take care of when you try to switch to generating money. You need to have a good story around how you're doing it. The guys who act like "it's only about the lies" are usually not decision makers, but it's important to be able to have enough a story that the decision makers don't get their thoughts contaminated by the perennially negative. I think Docker will be fine with what they're doing. This is a storm in a teacup. But they should've bundled it with other features like auto-updates or something.
chris_wot 8y ago
It's not even good spin. How, precisely, does it help improve the user experience?
brightball 8y ago
Stuff like this makes me feel better about focusing on Ansible Container instead of Docker. You can use it to create multiple different types of containers without being married to Docker itself.
- ChristianGeek 8y ago
  Is this a viable alternative to Docker? I’m about to launch a fairly large new project and had planned on going with Docker but this definitely causes me concern.
  - brightball 8y ago
    It just lets you abstract the container. You can use it to build docker or LXC, etc. if a new container comes out you will be able to build that too.
  - johnny22 8y ago
    something like this might be https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/daemon-haunted-container-world-no-longer-introducing-buildah-10 https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/daemon-haunted-container-worl... I'm posting the PR link rather than the projects since the I'm not sure what the intended CLI for actually using the container is.
  - takeda 8y ago
    IMO docker is a dead end, it essentially ended up being a glorified ZIP file, the real solution what docker was trying to do (reproducibility) is what Nix does, and if Nix is not a solution then something in that direction. In nix, you're basically describing the whole dependency tree of your application all the way to libc. When you build your application it builds everything necessary to run it. The great thing about it is that your CDE essentially is identical to your build system, and the builds are fully reproducible, it takes over being a build system, package manager and as mentioned CDE. They went even further with that (I have not explored that myself yet) and used the language to describe the entire system (called NixOS) which looks like CMS is no longer necessary and also nix is used for deployment (NixOps, also did not tried it) If you are into containers you can still deploy into systemd lxc containers, or even create a minimalistic docker image. The disadvantage is that there is a significant learning curve, it's a new language, and it is a functional, lazily evaluated language. The language is not really that hard, but many people are not used to functional programming. It is especially popular for deployment of Haskell code, since the language is also functional and lazily evaluated.
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imgabe 8y ago
And moreso, if you want to make money just charge money for something. Don't do scumbag stuff like collect emails to sell to marketers. Make something people are willing to pay for, and charge them money for it.
- fpgaminer 8y ago
  Doesn't Docker have Docker Enterprise or something like that that they charge money for? So the email harvesting is really just in addition to charging money.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    The harvested emails are used (among other things) for lead generation for Docker Enterprise.
    - HelloNurse 8y ago
      This is a socially acceptable reason to collect emails, and it should be openly labeled as "do you want to receive information about Docker products and services?" or the like, like non-annoying companies do.
deleted 8y ago
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lainga 8y ago
The metamorphosis from startup to company is complete. The people who would have been straightforward with you have been replaced by endemic office-dwellers.
bcheung 8y ago
Agreed. Being dishonest like this is one of the fastest way to lose customers. Please can spot it a mile away. They should make it optional. Have the email collection form prominently there and ask users if they want to sign up to receive the newsletter, free tutorial, free e-book, whitepapers, etc. Then also have a "No thanks, take me to the download". While email to download is fine in most marketing contexts, it is NOT fine for open source products. If they want to collect emails they need to offer something in addition. It doesn't even have to be that much. A free e-book on how to use Docker or something. The download page could also have a "Please support us by ..." section. There are so many better ways to go about this.
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  > If they want to collect emails they need to offer something in addition. whether i agree with the decision or not, i am confused by this sentiment. aren’t they offering docker, for free?
  - sethhochberg 8y ago
    They're indeed giving away Docker for free, but part of the reason I hypothetically want Docker in the first place is that I trust the people distributing it to not do anything underhanded with their flagship tool's position as a product which runs thousands of other businesses' infrastructure. There is a certain degree of trust involved in using a product like Docker since it is so critical to a businesses' operations, and I think a lot of people feel like using any kind of tracking (like mandatory registration to download) erodes that trust - we're forced to sit here and wonder what other restrictions might come in the future, or what other information they might start requiring for use of their product... and uncertainty never pairs well with infrastructure tooling that tends to be very important and very longlived within an organization.
    - kown223 8y ago
      you're trying to spin it for being an entitled prick, well you know what, you don't like it don't use docker, is not like they get much by you using for free.
WalterSear 8y ago
Probably.
deleted 8y ago
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mikekchar 8y ago
IMHO Free software done right: http://onehouronelife.com/ http://onehouronelife.com/ (except the call to action is below the fold :-P) Warning: past the home page, there is some possibly NSFW content. The game defaults to having some cartoon nudity (although there is a non-nudity mod) when the players haven't made clothes, so you might see some pictures of that if you dig around. It's a game. He puts all the code (and assets) in the public domain. You can go to github and download it and build it for free if you want. But on the website: $20 please. He tells you exactly what you get: lifetime server account, all future updates, full source code, tech support. Although the forum is not exactly a haven of mature discussion (in fact, it's downright awful at times), I've not even seen one complaint that "I could have got it for free". In fact, there have been several discussions where people say, "$20 is too high. Is there any way to get a discount?" and the reply is "You can download the code for free and play on these free servers". Inevitably the person says, "But I want the official version. I guess I'll pay the $20". No idea how much money he's made so far, but for a 1 person indy game, he's done astonishingly well: https://onehouronelife.com/newsPage.php?postID=377 https://onehouronelife.com/newsPage.php?postID=377 (description of sales in the first 2 weeks last March). According to other posts he's made in the forum (which I can't find), sales have continued to be brisk. If you want to charge for downloading the official build of free software, then do it. Even the FSF will cheer you on (as long as you include source code ;-) ).
- Tomte 8y ago
  The game sounded very interesting, until I read a bit in the forums. Some players are really toxic. Twitter is a peaceful, loving place compared to that. No way I will spend my free time in this game.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    The game itself is really fun and griefers are much rarer than you might imagine from reading the forums. But yeah.... It's absolutely nuts there sometimes. The developer is a massive free speech advocate and doesn't mind hosting this horrible crap. But what's insane is that he gives moderator ability to some of the worst offenders. So I just don't know what's going on in his head sometimes. There used to be a list of alternative servers, but seems to be gone now :-( Possibly nobody is hosting one any more. I'm tempted to do it myself, but I'm in Japan so the lag would be unacceptable anyway (I'd be playing by myself, which I do anyway...) But it's an option. If you can find a group of people to play with, it can be quite fun just to run on your own server. It takes very little CPU from my experience.
neya 8y ago
It's not just the dishonesty, but the way the github issue was closed just like that after just providing an improper, half-assed solution that still doesn't address the core problem.
Myrmornis 8y ago
Agreed. It is extraordinary that intelligent, honest, discourse is so rarely employed when companies explain things like this. Why MBAs, sales and business types find it so hard to understand how appalling intelligent people find this style of discourse baffles me. Surely many MBAs, sales and business types are intelligent and empathetic people?
- blt 8y ago
  probably not. in my experience those fields tend to attract people who either a) only care about money, or b) get a kick out of manipulating people.
- zambal 8y ago
  To me this seems to be a 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' type of issue, in the sense that they try to apply PR and marketing tactics from mass marketed consumer products to a niche product for professionals.
scrollaway 8y ago
> Would it kill companies to be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues? I feel like "Hey, we're unable to pay our bills unless we can better monetize our product" comes across a lot more honest and trust-worthy than this The problem is that it's almost never that. It's not "we're unable to pay our bills". It's "we've got more money than we need already, but we think we could get a lot more this way". You think, say, Netflix is a struggling business and that's why they have to put more ads than before? No. In a capitalist system, leaving money off the table is increasingly unjustifiable as the number you're leaving off grows. Docker absolutely is in that same situation.
- TheGrumpyBrit 8y ago
  Exactly. The reasoning behind this decision is obvious: "Hey, look at all these downloads CE is getting. We need to start following up with these users to try and promote Enterprise and other products. Start capturing emails at the point of download."
atopuzov 8y ago
Haven't seen an honest manager (yet) that would approve something like that.
nickjj 8y ago
In Docker's defense they don't really barrage you with marketing. This isn't a situation where if you create an account you're going to get emailed every day about "5 tips on moving your Enterprise application to Docker!". I've had a Docker Hub account since Docker Hub was a thing and the only content I really ever get from Docker is a weekly newsletter (which you can opt out of) and notifications about the platform itself (such as any downtime reports, etc.). I do think it's a bad idea though, mainly because for newer people getting into Docker it's a barrier of entry to overcome. I'm very suspicious of anyone asking me to register for things like this. On the other hand, I don't have insights that Docker has, so to make such a bold move, they probably have a plan.
- bluejay2387 8y ago
  Yes, I am sure they suddenly added a login requirement to the download process because they plan to NOT use it for expanding their marketing pushes...
- leothelocust 8y ago
  > In Docker's defense they don't really barrage you with marketing. Although they may not barrage you now, there is no telling what the future holds with stunts like this.
  - nickjj 8y ago
    > Although they may not barrage you now, there is no telling what the future holds with stunts like this. I think the future is pretty predictable. In the off chance they just wake up and start slamming you with unsolicited marketing then you can click unsubscribe in the footer of their email and you'll never see another email from Docker again. But really, I don't think Docker is foolish enough to do that. They've spent a lot of years building up their brand and business, and aren't reckless enough to put all of that at risk by relentlessly emailing their users with marketing agendas (if that's what they wanted to do they could have been doing that for years). Docker already knows that almost everyone uses the free community edition anyways, so they really have nothing to sell to us anyways, except for maybe Docker Hub private repo access. Anyone who already downloads Docker already knows the benefits of using Docker, so they don't need to sell us on Docker as a technology. What are they going to market to us? Lastly, let's not forget that the Docker for Windows / Mac clients have allowed you to login to the Docker Hub for a long time now and nothing bad has came from that (unexpected marketing attempts).
jugg1es 8y ago
Yea, it's like when the auto mechanic says its "unsafe" to not replace your brake rotors when you change your pads and that he won't replace your breaks unless you pay for rotors too. Just say that the job is too small to be worth it unless you replace the rotors.
xg15 8y ago
I think this is one of the core problems of the internet economy at large. We've build a huge ecosystem of services basically on the conditions: 1) Users think they are free 2) They are not actually free The result is of course stuff like this.
shevegen 8y ago
I think Docker already went down that route so it's too late for them to change. They adopted the mindset - you can see it from the way how the dude tried to explain how this improves anything when in reality it decreased convenience.

ethbro 8y ago

For reference and so people can be outraged without RTFA, here was the original close comment: -- joaofnfernandes (2 months ago) "I know that this can feel like a nuisance, but we've made this change to make sure we can improve the Docker for Mac and Windows experience for users moving forward. As far as I can tell, the docs don't need changes, so I'll close this issue, but feel free to comment."

TylerE 8y ago
Has there ever been a change to "improve user experience" that has _actually_ improved user experience? (Looking at you, Google.)
- Deimorz 8y ago
  http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ http://chainsawsuit.com/comic/2017/12/07/improvements/ "In our quest to improve the service for you, the user, we're making it worse. It was great before. It's going to be terrible now, but you're going to love the changes. We asked our investors and they said you're very excited about it being less good, which is great news for you."
- travisjungroth 8y ago
  A ton! But they just don’t usually call it that. 90% of changes just make things better for the user. 10% make things worse, but they’re obvious and honest and we’re okay with it. And then 1% is the stuff like this. The Netflix/Qwikster you’re paying less but more debacle. The EA “sense of pride and accomplishment”. The Netflix (wait, why are they here twice?) show recommendations that aren’t ads that’s happening right now.
  - ThisIs_MyName 8y ago
    > The Netflix/Qwikster you’re paying less but more debacle What did I miss?
    - MarkyC4 8y ago
      7 years ago, Netflix decided to split into streaming (Netflix) and DVDs by mail (Qwikster). It didn't last long
      - zwily 8y ago
        It sort of did... The DVD portion of Netflix is now at dvd.com.
  - pluma 8y ago
    Or Amazon's "Prime costs more now but it also includes Amazon Video which was so popular we couldn't get anyone to pay for it extra".
    - Accacin 8y ago
      I recently noticed that Amazon Prime in the UK has Parks and Recreation AND Seinfeld, which Netflix doesn't have. Worth it!
      - ethbro 8y ago
        Amazon Prime seems like it pulled out the checkbook for syndicated series. It's also got a lot of old HBO stuff. Which makes sense if you've got a pile of money but are trying to bootstrap a streaming service. I expect most of that will disappear when it comes up for renewal and they've built out their original content (in the same way it did for Netflix).
karlshea 8y ago
but feel free to comment. i.e. "We do not give one single fuck what you think about this decision, and will not be reading any of your replies."

imglorp 8y ago

What's next? Opt-out phone-home, telemetry, crash reporting, quality analytics, whatever you call it. That's my prediction. My Synology personal file server started nagging about enabling telemetry and needing a privacy notice to store my files on my drive on my network. Screw that.

drdeadringer 8y ago
I use a Synology personal server, but an older one. I have been considering upgrading to a more modern version. Do you remember about when this nagging began? Was it related to a firmware upgrade or was it "right out of the box"?
- proactivesvcs 8y ago
  I think I first saw it after installing DSM 6.2
- tw04 8y ago
  It's literally a one time prompt. I think calling it nagging is a bit extreme.
  - a254613e 8y ago
    At least for me the prompt isn't a one time thing, unless you consent to enabling telemetry. I get asked whether I want to enable it all the time when logging in.
    - imglorp 8y ago
      Yes, you can disable it forever [1]. Oh and there's actually a tiny "skip" on the nag screen in dull contrast, more user hostility. It's the concept I object to, though: If I pay for it, I should not be the product. And a privacy notice on something that's by definition supposed to be private. 1. Control Panel -> Info -> Device Analytics. https://www.reddit.com/r/synology/comments/8mdioc/device_analytics_whats_this_and_how_can_i_disable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/synology/comments/8mdioc/device_ana...

MBCook 8y ago

No kidding. “Improve the user experience“ is incredibly nebulous and non-obvious. IF there is actually a benefit to this why not just list it? We all know why. There isn’t a benefit to the end-user.

gameswithgo 8y ago
as soon as you see nonsense business speak like that you know things are going downhill. see also, netflix, and twitter lately. I really don't know why they bother uttering or writing those kinds of words. They contain no information, nobody is fooled by the lie. It is a waste of their time.
- sopooneo 8y ago
  I thought the same way until I worked with lots of types of people. The vast majority seem to much prefer BS, even blatant BS to honesty that is even the least bit blunt. I think part of it is that since everyone exaggerates, actual blunt truths are assumed to also be a positive spin, which would put their reality in the toilet.
  - shoulderfake 8y ago
    Majority of people out there are complete idiots, Im not trying to be rude either. Very few people think for themselves.
    - darkst4r 8y ago
      Hard truth
    - balladeer 8y ago
      I wouldn't call them idiots. They just are not as exposed to the concept of online privacy as a lot of us are. We might be on the other side of table in many other ways, or idiots as you put it. Like the way my doctor friends avoid some OTC drugs that I never even think twice before taking, or some food, or some ready made edibles. I have a friend in textile industry and when he buys clothes it's a whole new level and makes me wonder what the hell I have been wearing so far. It amazes me how he sees through all those "Giza cotton" tag-lines and gimmick features of breathability and what not that are usually followed by a (™). Can we all not learn everything from The Internet? No, we can't and it does not make any of us an idiot.

jcroll 8y ago

Does the internet always have to throw a fit every time a company tries to add a little monetization to what is an essentially free service?

yjftsjthsd-h 8y ago
We should throw a fit everytime they lie about it, yes
TAForObvReasons 8y ago
Do companies always have to gaslight users by suggesting that ads, trackers, malware and other features are "user-enhancing"? Monetization is OK, and in fact is a good thing in many cases, but trying to couch it in BS irritates many people.
hellosputnik 8y ago
The internet does not always throw a fit every time a company tries to add a little monetization to what is an essentially free service. The community is expressing a desire for companies to be be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues (i.e., monetization). Refer to the post you responded to for more information.
gameswithgo 8y ago
It is the lying we throw a fit about, mostly. Personally though I would MUCH prefer to actually pay for things than to have free things "monetized".
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ckocagil 8y ago
Docker isn't a service. It's an easily replaceable software that is dominant due to the network effect. All the hard work was done by the Linux kernel before Docker existed.
scarejunba 8y ago
Haha yes. The truth is that every critic of your service will do that if you monetize. It's definitely one key thing to take care of when you try to switch to generating money. You need to have a good story around how you're doing it. The guys who act like "it's only about the lies" are usually not decision makers, but it's important to be able to have enough a story that the decision makers don't get their thoughts contaminated by the perennially negative. I think Docker will be fine with what they're doing. This is a storm in a teacup. But they should've bundled it with other features like auto-updates or something.

chris_wot 8y ago

It's not even good spin. How, precisely, does it help improve the user experience?

brightball 8y ago

Stuff like this makes me feel better about focusing on Ansible Container instead of Docker. You can use it to create multiple different types of containers without being married to Docker itself.

ChristianGeek 8y ago
Is this a viable alternative to Docker? I’m about to launch a fairly large new project and had planned on going with Docker but this definitely causes me concern.
- brightball 8y ago
  It just lets you abstract the container. You can use it to build docker or LXC, etc. if a new container comes out you will be able to build that too.
- johnny22 8y ago
  something like this might be https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/daemon-haunted-container-world-no-longer-introducing-buildah-10 https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/daemon-haunted-container-worl... I'm posting the PR link rather than the projects since the I'm not sure what the intended CLI for actually using the container is.
- takeda 8y ago
  IMO docker is a dead end, it essentially ended up being a glorified ZIP file, the real solution what docker was trying to do (reproducibility) is what Nix does, and if Nix is not a solution then something in that direction. In nix, you're basically describing the whole dependency tree of your application all the way to libc. When you build your application it builds everything necessary to run it. The great thing about it is that your CDE essentially is identical to your build system, and the builds are fully reproducible, it takes over being a build system, package manager and as mentioned CDE. They went even further with that (I have not explored that myself yet) and used the language to describe the entire system (called NixOS) which looks like CMS is no longer necessary and also nix is used for deployment (NixOps, also did not tried it) If you are into containers you can still deploy into systemd lxc containers, or even create a minimalistic docker image. The disadvantage is that there is a significant learning curve, it's a new language, and it is a functional, lazily evaluated language. The language is not really that hard, but many people are not used to functional programming. It is especially popular for deployment of Haskell code, since the language is also functional and lazily evaluated.

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imgabe 8y ago

And moreso, if you want to make money just charge money for something. Don't do scumbag stuff like collect emails to sell to marketers. Make something people are willing to pay for, and charge them money for it.

fpgaminer 8y ago
Doesn't Docker have Docker Enterprise or something like that that they charge money for? So the email harvesting is really just in addition to charging money.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  The harvested emails are used (among other things) for lead generation for Docker Enterprise.
  - HelloNurse 8y ago
    This is a socially acceptable reason to collect emails, and it should be openly labeled as "do you want to receive information about Docker products and services?" or the like, like non-annoying companies do.

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lainga 8y ago

The metamorphosis from startup to company is complete. The people who would have been straightforward with you have been replaced by endemic office-dwellers.

bcheung 8y ago

Agreed. Being dishonest like this is one of the fastest way to lose customers. Please can spot it a mile away. They should make it optional. Have the email collection form prominently there and ask users if they want to sign up to receive the newsletter, free tutorial, free e-book, whitepapers, etc. Then also have a "No thanks, take me to the download". While email to download is fine in most marketing contexts, it is NOT fine for open source products. If they want to collect emails they need to offer something in addition. It doesn't even have to be that much. A free e-book on how to use Docker or something. The download page could also have a "Please support us by ..." section. There are so many better ways to go about this.

nikofeyn 8y ago
> If they want to collect emails they need to offer something in addition. whether i agree with the decision or not, i am confused by this sentiment. aren’t they offering docker, for free?
- sethhochberg 8y ago
  They're indeed giving away Docker for free, but part of the reason I hypothetically want Docker in the first place is that I trust the people distributing it to not do anything underhanded with their flagship tool's position as a product which runs thousands of other businesses' infrastructure. There is a certain degree of trust involved in using a product like Docker since it is so critical to a businesses' operations, and I think a lot of people feel like using any kind of tracking (like mandatory registration to download) erodes that trust - we're forced to sit here and wonder what other restrictions might come in the future, or what other information they might start requiring for use of their product... and uncertainty never pairs well with infrastructure tooling that tends to be very important and very longlived within an organization.
  - kown223 8y ago
    you're trying to spin it for being an entitled prick, well you know what, you don't like it don't use docker, is not like they get much by you using for free.

WalterSear 8y ago

Probably.

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mikekchar 8y ago

IMHO Free software done right: http://onehouronelife.com/ http://onehouronelife.com/ (except the call to action is below the fold :-P) Warning: past the home page, there is some possibly NSFW content. The game defaults to having some cartoon nudity (although there is a non-nudity mod) when the players haven't made clothes, so you might see some pictures of that if you dig around. It's a game. He puts all the code (and assets) in the public domain. You can go to github and download it and build it for free if you want. But on the website: $20 please. He tells you exactly what you get: lifetime server account, all future updates, full source code, tech support. Although the forum is not exactly a haven of mature discussion (in fact, it's downright awful at times), I've not even seen one complaint that "I could have got it for free". In fact, there have been several discussions where people say, "$20 is too high. Is there any way to get a discount?" and the reply is "You can download the code for free and play on these free servers". Inevitably the person says, "But I want the official version. I guess I'll pay the $20". No idea how much money he's made so far, but for a 1 person indy game, he's done astonishingly well: https://onehouronelife.com/newsPage.php?postID=377 https://onehouronelife.com/newsPage.php?postID=377 (description of sales in the first 2 weeks last March). According to other posts he's made in the forum (which I can't find), sales have continued to be brisk. If you want to charge for downloading the official build of free software, then do it. Even the FSF will cheer you on (as long as you include source code ;-) ).

Tomte 8y ago
The game sounded very interesting, until I read a bit in the forums. Some players are really toxic. Twitter is a peaceful, loving place compared to that. No way I will spend my free time in this game.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  The game itself is really fun and griefers are much rarer than you might imagine from reading the forums. But yeah.... It's absolutely nuts there sometimes. The developer is a massive free speech advocate and doesn't mind hosting this horrible crap. But what's insane is that he gives moderator ability to some of the worst offenders. So I just don't know what's going on in his head sometimes. There used to be a list of alternative servers, but seems to be gone now :-( Possibly nobody is hosting one any more. I'm tempted to do it myself, but I'm in Japan so the lag would be unacceptable anyway (I'd be playing by myself, which I do anyway...) But it's an option. If you can find a group of people to play with, it can be quite fun just to run on your own server. It takes very little CPU from my experience.

neya 8y ago

It's not just the dishonesty, but the way the github issue was closed just like that after just providing an improper, half-assed solution that still doesn't address the core problem.

Myrmornis 8y ago

Agreed. It is extraordinary that intelligent, honest, discourse is so rarely employed when companies explain things like this. Why MBAs, sales and business types find it so hard to understand how appalling intelligent people find this style of discourse baffles me. Surely many MBAs, sales and business types are intelligent and empathetic people?

blt 8y ago
probably not. in my experience those fields tend to attract people who either a) only care about money, or b) get a kick out of manipulating people.
zambal 8y ago
To me this seems to be a 'when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' type of issue, in the sense that they try to apply PR and marketing tactics from mass marketed consumer products to a niche product for professionals.

scrollaway 8y ago

> Would it kill companies to be honest and upfront about these sorts of issues? I feel like "Hey, we're unable to pay our bills unless we can better monetize our product" comes across a lot more honest and trust-worthy than this The problem is that it's almost never that. It's not "we're unable to pay our bills". It's "we've got more money than we need already, but we think we could get a lot more this way". You think, say, Netflix is a struggling business and that's why they have to put more ads than before? No. In a capitalist system, leaving money off the table is increasingly unjustifiable as the number you're leaving off grows. Docker absolutely is in that same situation.

TheGrumpyBrit 8y ago
Exactly. The reasoning behind this decision is obvious: "Hey, look at all these downloads CE is getting. We need to start following up with these users to try and promote Enterprise and other products. Start capturing emails at the point of download."

atopuzov 8y ago

Haven't seen an honest manager (yet) that would approve something like that.

nickjj 8y ago

In Docker's defense they don't really barrage you with marketing. This isn't a situation where if you create an account you're going to get emailed every day about "5 tips on moving your Enterprise application to Docker!". I've had a Docker Hub account since Docker Hub was a thing and the only content I really ever get from Docker is a weekly newsletter (which you can opt out of) and notifications about the platform itself (such as any downtime reports, etc.). I do think it's a bad idea though, mainly because for newer people getting into Docker it's a barrier of entry to overcome. I'm very suspicious of anyone asking me to register for things like this. On the other hand, I don't have insights that Docker has, so to make such a bold move, they probably have a plan.

bluejay2387 8y ago
Yes, I am sure they suddenly added a login requirement to the download process because they plan to NOT use it for expanding their marketing pushes...
leothelocust 8y ago
> In Docker's defense they don't really barrage you with marketing. Although they may not barrage you now, there is no telling what the future holds with stunts like this.
- nickjj 8y ago
  > Although they may not barrage you now, there is no telling what the future holds with stunts like this. I think the future is pretty predictable. In the off chance they just wake up and start slamming you with unsolicited marketing then you can click unsubscribe in the footer of their email and you'll never see another email from Docker again. But really, I don't think Docker is foolish enough to do that. They've spent a lot of years building up their brand and business, and aren't reckless enough to put all of that at risk by relentlessly emailing their users with marketing agendas (if that's what they wanted to do they could have been doing that for years). Docker already knows that almost everyone uses the free community edition anyways, so they really have nothing to sell to us anyways, except for maybe Docker Hub private repo access. Anyone who already downloads Docker already knows the benefits of using Docker, so they don't need to sell us on Docker as a technology. What are they going to market to us? Lastly, let's not forget that the Docker for Windows / Mac clients have allowed you to login to the Docker Hub for a long time now and nothing bad has came from that (unexpected marketing attempts).

jugg1es 8y ago

Yea, it's like when the auto mechanic says its "unsafe" to not replace your brake rotors when you change your pads and that he won't replace your breaks unless you pay for rotors too. Just say that the job is too small to be worth it unless you replace the rotors.

xg15 8y ago

I think this is one of the core problems of the internet economy at large. We've build a huge ecosystem of services basically on the conditions: 1) Users think they are free 2) They are not actually free The result is of course stuff like this.

shevegen 8y ago

I think Docker already went down that route so it's too late for them to change. They adopted the mindset - you can see it from the way how the dude tried to explain how this improves anything when in reality it decreased convenience.