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Cisco Said to Be Cited for Bias Against U.S. Workers

219 points by altoidaltoid 8y ago

yanslookup 8y ago
This is more common than you'd imagine and it's telling that a company the size of Cisco can't hide it. Between OPT and H1B the relationship between tech and immigration is grim.
- lvspiff 8y ago
  Its like the secret everyone knows, but nobody wants to do anything about unless they get caught. Even then when they get caught the worst punishment they will get is a days profit MAYBE. Its easier to pay a $100 million fine every 10 years than to have to pay reasonable wages.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    It is truly a wonder of the free market that if fights against the discrimination of immigration laws.
oh_sigh 8y ago
Supposing it is true, why would Cisco prefer work visa holders over US citizens? Lower salaries? Less job mobility(meaning longer average tenure)?
- daviddavis 8y ago
  Did you read the article? It’s literally the first sentence.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    Well, second. These are the first two sentences: >Labor Department investigators recently concluded that Cisco Systems Inc. discriminated against U.S. workers by favoring immigrant visa holders for job openings, sources familiar with the probe tell Bloomberg Law. >The DOL’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs determined that the technology firm secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring U.S. citizens for certain jobs and paid the visa holders at a lower rate than their American counterparts, according to the sources.
  - grumpopotamus 8y ago
    Please see the Hacker News guidelines! >Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      At the same time, if you clearly didn't read the article, you should expect to be called out on it.
    - vonmoltke 8y ago
      Please don't quote Hacker News guidelines to people. Particularly when those people have been members for over seven years.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    Yes. The article says that they pay immigrant visa holders less, not that paying them less is the reason that they supposedly did this: > The DOL’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs determined that the technology firm secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring U.S. citizens for certain jobs and paid the visa holders at a lower rate than their American counterparts, according to the sources.
- rootedbox 8y ago
  Per the article... lower salaries.
- pkaye 8y ago
  > Company allegedly favored visa holders in hiring, then paid them less
- gnicholas 8y ago
  The ability to pay less, and to not worry about the employee leaving for another employer. Citizens are able to jump between employers in ways that visa holders are not, which gives them more leverage and the ability to bargain for better pay/benefits.
- sidlls 8y ago
  It's both. As for pay: an anecdote. I manage a team that includes some H1-B visa holders. The visa holders are paid quite well relative to most workers in America, like most tech workers are, but they are definitely paid less than their peers on my team (a situation I work hard to remedy at raise and bonus time), but not so much less as to necessarily draw focus from regulators. It's more like the pay discrepancy between men and women (except not quite to that degree). As for mobility: ask any H1-B holder who has worked at a company with massive layoffs whether they felt more or less anxiety than people with less restrictive visas, greencards, or citizenship.
- refurb 8y ago
  As someone who was an H1-B holder, it wasn’t due to salaries as I was better paid than most. For the Infosys companies, I could see lower wages as a driver.
lvspiff 8y ago
Sad thing is - if this is going on at Cisco imagine what goes on in the farm fields, the restaurants, the hotels, and the rest of the lowest paying jobs in this country. If it takes YEARS to build a case against giant company how many little guys are getting away with it on a daily basis?
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  In the farms, even basic laws banning hiring illegal immigrants get immediately blocked by a coalition of pro-immigration activists and big companies in the industry.
  - Aloha 8y ago
    Without illegal immigrants crops would literally rot in the fields. I don't like illegal immigration, I'd rather there be a easy legal program to allow temporary workers, but there isn't, and I like eating.
    - rhexs 8y ago
      Just to be clear, you believe you would starve if immigration policy was changed in such a way that farmers received less subsidies and had to pay a fair wage to get work done?
      - Aloha 8y ago
        No actually. I believe that just deporting the illegal immigrants without fixing the other broken parts of the system that we would have massive crop losses - significant amounts of fresh fruit and vegetables would disappear from shelves.
    - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
      There is a legal guest worker program for unskilled agricultural labor: H-2A. It's not as cheap as hiring itinerant work crews with no visa, though.
uissna 8y ago
This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech. You don't see many visa holders working in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering (at the high end) and then migrant farming and illegal immigrant factory workers (at the low end).
- abtinf 8y ago
  > shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. Those immigrants are a helluva lot more American than you.
  - t3soro 8y ago
    > meaningless words
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018 and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing. Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why). All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their average salary whereas all of the top domestic sponsors are paying significantly more. I'm sure the medians are even worse. So all a US company has to do is play the contractor shuffle and get cheaper labor. Also note that there are no listings for people with master's or doctorate degrees. H1B is clearly not being used for its intended effect. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...
krob 8y ago
I've heard rumors that this is the same at the big O, and for years with the big blue too.
tawa2989 8y ago
Worked at another big Californian semiconductor company for several years. Directors/middle managers, mostly Americans, would always joke about how easy it was to get H1Bs hired and all the shady stuff they did to not have to actually advertise the position. They got great bonuses, life was good. Eventually, {specific H1B subgroup} made up a significant portion of the company as they always continue to hire more of {specific H1B subgroup} at the expense of everyone else. During a downturn several years ago, there was a tremendous layoff to try to maintain profitability. Most of the old guard, almost all the older higher paid Americans that didn't make it to the VP level, got axed. You reap what you sow.
throwaway28473 8y ago
Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?
- alehul 8y ago
  I think the simpler form of that question is "what's wrong with globalism?", to which there's many answers. One of the foremost would be that an American company should support the livelihoods of the American people, especially as long as other countries like China wouldn't allow an American to work so easily in the reverse situation. It's just a natural tribal instinct, also, to care more for the welfare of your neighbor than someone across the world. I'm not commenting on the validity of those arguments, though, as I think a core part of America's success is being unusually open to immigration.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    The main problem with globalism is that capital conspires against labor but labor doesn't respond with a unified front.
    - chii 8y ago
      Yes! I think that the amount of propaganda and cultural infusion of negativity against unions (often slurring unions with communism) is the real cause of the stagnation in worker rights and wages.
    - taurath 8y ago
      Companies and money can cross borders, people cannot (generally).
    - Buldak 8y ago
      Why is that a problem principally a problem of globalism rather than capitalism?
  - fickleycurious 8y ago
jcafe 8y ago
Almost ironic that this article is from Bloomberg. Recently interviewed with them for a software engineer role and the only american I talked to out of 6 people, was the recruiter.
- aatharuv 8y ago
  How do you know that? Did you ask everyone their citizenship /immigration status during the interview?
  - jcafe 8y ago
    You are right. I jumped to conclusions. I just assumed they were h1b's because of their thick/strong accents and unamericanized names.
    - ctrlaltdestroy 8y ago
      So just being on H1B is bad now?
      - jcafe 8y ago
        No? I neither said nor implied anything negative about the character of h1b's. Bloomberg writes article about Cisco's bias for hiring h1b's over US workers. I mention my anecdotal experience with Bloomberg where nearly everyone I interacted with was not US born and had thick accents. I thought the irony was funny. Don't twist my words.
  - stochastic_monk 8y ago
    It could be that the GP was using “American” to represent an issue of race rather than one of citizenship.
    - jcafe 8y ago
      I'm asian-american myself and I was interviewed by other asians who I had trouble understanding despite being brought up around my own family's accent. I wasn't using "american" to represent race or citizenship. I didn't see think of them as american because we clearly did not share anything in common and had trouble communicating with each other. Side note: My grandmother is a US citizen, but she only knows how to say "Hello" and "thank you" in english. Bringing in citizenship feels disingenuous. EDIT: Citizenship comment is regarding this conversation and not the article itself. Sorry if it seemed like an attack.
kevin_b_er 8y ago
Corporate greed at its finest. The goal was to hire employees at lower wages and who couldn't just up and leave for another company next door so easily. This combined gets them workers who aren't allowed to negotiate and who are cheaper than normal workers. When driven only by greed, all methods to get more money are always acceptable... unless you are caught.
- briandear 8y ago
  That’s not greed, that’s smart business. Why would you pay more for something if you didn’t have to? Is it greedy to take advantage of a sale on fruit at the grocery store rather than paying full price? The problem is visa law, not companies following that law.
  - rmrfrmrf 8y ago
    Might be a controversial opinion, but I think we as humans have lost sight of the ball when we start letting capitalism drive ethics.
    - conanbatt 8y ago
      And what ethics tell you that you should have the right to bar other people from working with other people?
      - rmrfrmrf 8y ago
        For Americans, reducing income disparity, which in turn would allow more money to flow within the US. For foreign employees, ending a program of indentured servitude that dangles the prospect of citizenship in front of them while providing substandard pay and limited mobility. For foreign governments, bringing talent back to their countries rather than cash, enabling the development of their own businesses and growth of their own economy.
        conanbatt 8y ago
taurath 8y ago
> Cisco, which reported $43 billion in revenue last year, employs more than 73,000 workers at its headquarters in San Jose, Calif., and international offices. The company employed nearly 1,600 visa holders last year. If this number seems low, thats because it is. They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't show up. That they were cited at all for the 1600 visa workers in the first place is astounding to me.
- gnahckire 8y ago
  > They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't show up. Used to work there. I was always surprised at the volume of contractors and contracting companies were embedded within the ranks.
abtinf 8y ago
Here is a good talk on how to think about three deeply connected topics that are under attack today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU --- Free Trade, Immigration and Robots, Oh My! One of the biggest threats America faces—we are told—is the assault on our workforce: the loss of American jobs to immigrants, to foreign competition fueled by free trade, and even to technology that will make all kinds of jobs obsolete. In this talk the Ayn Rand Institute's executive chairman, Yaron Brook, argues that this fear is entirely misplaced—that a proper grasp of the virtue of productiveness shows that far from fearing and opposing free trade, immigration and robots, we should be eagerly embracing all three. ---
ProfessorLayton 8y ago
It seems like a good solution to H1B abuse is to get rid of the lottery and move towards a bid system, but the "bid" is the foreign worker's salary. This will solve the wage suppression issue, and will grant access to talent to companies that are willing and able to pay for it.
- mc32 8y ago
  You can also just tax the difference from prevailing wages; take those taxes and earmark them for training of laid off workers of same industry.
  - jedberg 8y ago
    In theory all H1B workers already get “prevailing wage”. It’s part of the law. So the tax would be 0. The issue is that it really isn’t prevailing wage.
  - mavelikara 8y ago
    > and earmark them for training of laid off workers of same industry. A portion ($1500) of most H-1B application fees goes towards funding scholarship and training programs. This is called " ACWIA fee" - see [1] and [2] for details. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Competitiveness_and_Workforce_Improvement_Act#Section_414:_New_fees_for_scholarships_and_training https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Competitiveness_and_W... [2]: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/h1b05annual_08_7.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...
- yanslookup 8y ago
  "They" are already designing this and it'll make the problem worse not better. They will keep the 4 DoL skill levels used for H1B and put caps at each level. The extra twist is it will be in the shape of a pyramid where there are fewer highly skill slots but enough for the Google's, and then a lot more for the lower levels. So that company that was continually denied their $55k level 4 "senior dev" in Dallas in the lottery is now high enough in the auction to win.
tanilama 8y ago
If Cisco pay fair share to all its employees, regardless of their status, how much more money will it cost? I would say it won't be a big number as compare to their executives bonuses.
- adventured 8y ago
  It would be drastically greater in fact. The issue at the heart of this story is big enough without requiring exaggeration. Cisco has 70,000 employees. Pay them all $5,000 more and it's $350 million every year (Cisco of course can in fact afford that). Cisco's CEO made $16.7 million in 2017. $1.2m in salary, $2.5m in bonus, $12.8m in stock. He's the highest compensated executive at Cisco.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  They wouldnt pay the fair share. They would hire less people and spend a total amount on salaries that is lower than it is now.
cc-d 8y ago
Cap minimum pay to the equivalent of $150k yearly and watch as the h1b visa program magically starts working as intended. The solution is not complicated. With the anti-immigrant rhetoric pouring from the current administration, I'm surprised that blatant h1b visa abuse is still rampant.
- jeremyjh 8y ago
  There is no need for an artificial cap, just make it a bidding system. The companies bid for how many workers at salary $X. Highest bids are awarded the visas. Problem solved.
  - cc-d 8y ago
    This may work for tech, but I'm guessing there are quite a few other industries with low volumes of h1b applicants/workers which could utilize a "bidding system" to hire well below market rate due to decreased demand when compared to tech. $150k cap across the board ensures that all industries are kept honest. A bidding system can be added on top of that, if needed, but this extremely simple fix would ensure that the system fulfills the original goals it was created for, while adding no bureaucratic overhead.
    - Aloha 8y ago
      better idea - just make it 25-50% above prevailing wage for that kind of work.
      - jl2718 8y ago
        Then you just have job reclassification. It doesn’t work. Only money talks.
      - jlawer 8y ago
        Australian here, but had similar ideas about the visa situation in .au however I think you can't just do a +X% of "prevailing wage" If the prevailing wage is calculated based on an average, you will find big business will get lower payed workers bundled in to the industry average (i.e. apple has retail staff, most companies have call centre staff, all have janitorial staff, etc) and the "prevailing wage" will be significantly lower then it should be. If its based on job title you will just find every visa holder will have a "lower" job title (i.e. Junior rather then senior) that gives the companies a way to pay less. Thats before factoring cost of living between various locations. Special interests will ensure that the prevailing wage is drawn sufficiently lower then it should be. I think it has to remain a static value (adjusted for inflation) that is quite high (e.g. $180k->$250k AUD for Australia), enough that anyone who a company will pay that much would almost certainly be a world class employee, and if someone is worth that much, then I can't see how they wouldn't be a benefit for both the country / economy, employee and the competitiveness of the company. I have no issue with this being an unlimited visa class, and should be able to be streamlined for a much quicker approval (i.e. has the company signed an agreement that they are paying $X per year?, if yes its approved pending health and security approval). This allows companies to hire the best in the world, while not allowing them to drive down salaries with similarly skilled employees. Additionally if there is a shortage it will ensure there is some pressure to train / develop employees, innovate, automate, etc, but providing a pressure relief if needed (if supply and demand becomes unbalanced enough that people are willing to pay $180k for janitorial staff, then economically they are needed).
tfolbrecht 8y ago
I'm curious to see what happens if a company like Huawei enters the US networking hardware market after cutting its teeth. Are we supposed to go with Cisco out of patriotism? Is the general public going to petition the government for protectionism? I also wonder how long it takes wage suppression to propagate out into lower demand and shrinking GDP growth.
- briandear 8y ago
  I would go with Cisco because I wouldn’t trust a company that’s essentially a commercial arm of the Chinese MSS.
jtr_47 8y ago
H1B needs to be abolished. It has only been used to suppress US wages and to bring in lower paying bodies to do the same work a properly trained US Citizen could perform in IT. There's no shortage of IT skills in the USA. They should be punished to the fullest.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  And all websites from outside the us shoudl be blocked. The US can build its own websites, and not give any revenue or attention to any outside website. And we should build a firewall, the best you have ever seen!
- seventhtiger 8y ago
  That doesn't add up at all. How can there not be shortage of IT skills? IT is one of if not the most profitable field per employee with the lowest unemployment rates, and IT companies are flush with cash. IT companies would love to launch entire new products and divisions and recruitment is their bottleneck.
petilon 8y ago
If immigrants are depressing salaries, how do you explain $120,000 (base + stock + bonus) for fresh graduates, paid by Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, etc? https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-will-make-at-companies-like-facebook-and-google-in-2017.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-wil... It's a hardened belief that jobs are a zero-sum game — and from this arises the idea that every skilled immigrant takes away a job from a U.S. worker. This isn't true. More skilled, educated workers will actually add to the economy — and grow the economy. Some companies abuse the system, and the abuse must be stopped. But immigration of the best and the brightest is what made this country a superpower, and must be encouraged. See also: http://paulgraham.com/95.html http://paulgraham.com/95.html
- Kephael 8y ago
  There are not unlimited new graduate roles at these companies, Microsoft was telling students they passed the interview but that slots were full at the school I attend.
- dmoy 8y ago
  Your number is off by tens of thousands. Your number was already off by tens of thousands like 8 years ago. Closer to $180 than $120 now.
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  I don't see how cherry-picking a few of the top companies demonstrates anything. The top Big Law firms pay new associates $180k+, despite the oversaturated law market. There will always be competition for the cream of the crop. Pointing out the situation for that competition says almost nothing about the rest of the market.
WalterSear 8y ago
When I was at Juniper Networks, Indian managers would routinely hire Indian employees on H1, underpay them to make them look competitive compared to US employees, and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding this from the other departments, and the 'white' people.
- sush99 8y ago
  Any proof to this?
  - WalterSear 8y ago
    Eyewitness testimony.
- kamaal 8y ago
  Onsite Allowance/Bonus is very Common in Indian outsourcing firms. But its not exactly 'yacht and helicopter' money you think it is. Typically something like $1000 per year in Bonus. And they also need to keep the pay roll etc alive, because their dependents need health insurance in India. Often the biggest Perk for Indians to work in the US is not even money, its to get exposure to the first world infrastructure and overall industry scene. Even if you don't make much money, you return to India with heavily scaled up ambitions.
- mavelikara 8y ago
  > and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding this from the other departments Where does this money come from? This should be budgeted somewhere, so I don't understand how this is "hidden" from others. Also, if you knew this they probably didn't do a good job of "hiding" it, did they?
  - im_cynical 8y ago
    Not OP, but I spent 5 years at Cisco. It wouldn't be terribly hard to hide opex in a company that size.. there's a good deal of discretion given to middle management with their budgets and non-existent oversight.
cisco-throwaway 8y ago
I work here! I also participated in this! We needed to hire a few people at a smaller Cisco site for a project in a less than favourite BU. Recruitment reached out to me after my rec didn’t find any fits in a week and the pushed a couple candidates my way. As these candidates required sponsorship, we knew that we could probably retain them for less and for longer. I don’t have anything against Americans, but if I can get someone who is better educated, will not jump ship in 18 months, and will do more for less then I’ll jump all over that. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
- dudul 8y ago
  Is 1 week of open rec legally enough to justify hiring an H1B? I thought the legal requirement to justify the petition was longer than that.
- jingleheimer 8y ago
  And this is how populists get elected.
- my_usernam3 8y ago
  > I don’t have anything against Americans, but if I can get someone who is better educated, will not jump ship in 18 months, and will do more for less then I’ll jump all over that. By this logic, why not enslave children and teach them CS. The argument against cisco is the "players" are clearly trying to CHEAT "the game". H1b's are for finding talent when there isn't any, not for finding workers that won't "jump ship". The freedom to jump ship is why America is great.
Aloha 8y ago
I think the answer to this problem is to require H1B holders to be paid 25-50% above prevailing wage for that job type or sector, which would preclude just picking up someone on H1B for cost reasons.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  I heard a story once that in acity with rat infestations, the government proposed a bounty for each rat-tail that could be shown as evidence of having killed a rat. Promptly the rat population increased exponentially. If you made the race to salary, you can remove health benefits, PTO, stock, restricted bonuses, etc etc to artificially increase the number which would in the end harm the worker as well, since he will pay a higher tax rate for the shenanigan.
rdl 8y ago
I'd love to see H1B completely done away with. Transferrable visas for non-immigrant status freely available in exchange for a fairly massive bond and annual fee ($50-100k/yr), and immigrant visas on a much less expensive basis based on merit.
phyller 8y ago
I've seen it stated several times here on hacker news that the visas should be available for the highest salaries. And that's it. No lottery. If you want them, pay them. That makes tons of sense to me on a lot of levels, it is going to naturally destroy abuse, recruit the best and brightest to come to the US, and not cause unfair discrimination against American workers. 1,600 visa workers for Cisco seems really low though. Anecdata, but my company hired a VP from Cisco and from that point until they left we made a lot of hires, but not a single American that I am aware of.
gdilla 8y ago
So easy to fix. If you believe in free market, you also need the labor pool to be free. Let H1Bs be able to change jobs like anyone else, and wages will rise. Pretty simple. Indentured servitude is anti free market.
turtlecloud 8y ago
American engineers are getting shafted by the H1B visa program. The H1B work harder because they have a figurative gun pointed at their heads. Work or leave the country. Why would any sane American work that hard? It is a race to the bottom and the big tech companies at playin with fire. The societal damage is currently unquantifiable, but for an astute observers and people with common sense it’s not good.
kraig911 8y ago
Something needs to happen for positive change. My Indian friend recently fathered a baby and couldn't see his son almost a year later. Politics getting in the way of people just trying to make the world a better place as per usual.

219 points by altoidaltoid 8y ago

This is more common than you'd imagine and it's telling that a company the size of Cisco can't hide it. Between OPT and H1B the relationship between tech and immigration is grim.

lvspiff 8y ago
Its like the secret everyone knows, but nobody wants to do anything about unless they get caught. Even then when they get caught the worst punishment they will get is a days profit MAYBE. Its easier to pay a $100 million fine every 10 years than to have to pay reasonable wages.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  It is truly a wonder of the free market that if fights against the discrimination of immigration laws.

oh_sigh 8y ago

Supposing it is true, why would Cisco prefer work visa holders over US citizens? Lower salaries? Less job mobility(meaning longer average tenure)?

daviddavis 8y ago
Did you read the article? It’s literally the first sentence.
- SilasX 8y ago
  Well, second. These are the first two sentences: >Labor Department investigators recently concluded that Cisco Systems Inc. discriminated against U.S. workers by favoring immigrant visa holders for job openings, sources familiar with the probe tell Bloomberg Law. >The DOL’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs determined that the technology firm secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring U.S. citizens for certain jobs and paid the visa holders at a lower rate than their American counterparts, according to the sources.
- grumpopotamus 8y ago
  Please see the Hacker News guidelines! >Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that."
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    At the same time, if you clearly didn't read the article, you should expect to be called out on it.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    Please don't quote Hacker News guidelines to people. Particularly when those people have been members for over seven years.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  Yes. The article says that they pay immigrant visa holders less, not that paying them less is the reason that they supposedly did this: > The DOL’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs determined that the technology firm secured visas for foreign workers instead of hiring U.S. citizens for certain jobs and paid the visa holders at a lower rate than their American counterparts, according to the sources.
rootedbox 8y ago
Per the article... lower salaries.
pkaye 8y ago
> Company allegedly favored visa holders in hiring, then paid them less
gnicholas 8y ago
The ability to pay less, and to not worry about the employee leaving for another employer. Citizens are able to jump between employers in ways that visa holders are not, which gives them more leverage and the ability to bargain for better pay/benefits.
sidlls 8y ago
It's both. As for pay: an anecdote. I manage a team that includes some H1-B visa holders. The visa holders are paid quite well relative to most workers in America, like most tech workers are, but they are definitely paid less than their peers on my team (a situation I work hard to remedy at raise and bonus time), but not so much less as to necessarily draw focus from regulators. It's more like the pay discrepancy between men and women (except not quite to that degree). As for mobility: ask any H1-B holder who has worked at a company with massive layoffs whether they felt more or less anxiety than people with less restrictive visas, greencards, or citizenship.
refurb 8y ago
As someone who was an H1-B holder, it wasn’t due to salaries as I was better paid than most. For the Infosys companies, I could see lower wages as a driver.

lvspiff 8y ago

Sad thing is - if this is going on at Cisco imagine what goes on in the farm fields, the restaurants, the hotels, and the rest of the lowest paying jobs in this country. If it takes YEARS to build a case against giant company how many little guys are getting away with it on a daily basis?

fjsolwmv 8y ago
In the farms, even basic laws banning hiring illegal immigrants get immediately blocked by a coalition of pro-immigration activists and big companies in the industry.
- Aloha 8y ago
  Without illegal immigrants crops would literally rot in the fields. I don't like illegal immigration, I'd rather there be a easy legal program to allow temporary workers, but there isn't, and I like eating.
  - rhexs 8y ago
    Just to be clear, you believe you would starve if immigration policy was changed in such a way that farmers received less subsidies and had to pay a fair wage to get work done?
    - Aloha 8y ago
      No actually. I believe that just deporting the illegal immigrants without fixing the other broken parts of the system that we would have massive crop losses - significant amounts of fresh fruit and vegetables would disappear from shelves.
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    There is a legal guest worker program for unskilled agricultural labor: H-2A. It's not as cheap as hiring itinerant work crews with no visa, though.

uissna 8y ago

This is an open secret in tech. Visa holders have less job offers to negotiate with, less job mobility, and consequently get paid less. Companies preferentially hire them over Americans. Further, the recent actions making harder for "body shops" like Infosys are actually helping big tech companies win more visa lotteries. This means the recent action that was supposed to help American workers, is actually causing the best jobs to shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. The whole visa and immigration system needs huge reform. I am not anti immigrant but the immigration system disproportionately hurts American software engineers and American tech. You don't see many visa holders working in sales and marketing, or teaching, or law, mostly just software engineering (at the high end) and then migrant farming and illegal immigrant factory workers (at the low end).

abtinf 8y ago
> shift more to immigrants and less to Americans. Those immigrants are a helluva lot more American than you.
- t3soro 8y ago
  > meaningless words
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Attracting the most talented immigrants is exactly what this country needs to grow its economy. There are nearly no unemployed top talent, and talent (including immigrants) grows demand. Look how many startups are spawned from the top tech company veterans. Taking in brilliant immmigrants is a defenst against the whole industry shifting the balance of power to a different country.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  That's great except that H1B is not supposed to be used to suppress domestic salaries or replace existing workers (Disney IT). This is openly happening and the government won't do anything to correct this illegal behavior. It's 2018 and Trump's executive order has amounted to nothing. Consider these 2016 numbers from USCIS [1] (Can't find 2017 data. Wonder why). All of the Indian body shops pay sub-$90K as their average salary whereas all of the top domestic sponsors are paying significantly more. I'm sure the medians are even worse. So all a US company has to do is play the contractor shuffle and get cheaper labor. Also note that there are no listings for people with master's or doctorate degrees. H1B is clearly not being used for its intended effect. [1] https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/Immigration%20Forms%20Data/BAHA/h-1b-2016-employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...

krob 8y ago

I've heard rumors that this is the same at the big O, and for years with the big blue too.

tawa2989 8y ago

Worked at another big Californian semiconductor company for several years. Directors/middle managers, mostly Americans, would always joke about how easy it was to get H1Bs hired and all the shady stuff they did to not have to actually advertise the position. They got great bonuses, life was good. Eventually, {specific H1B subgroup} made up a significant portion of the company as they always continue to hire more of {specific H1B subgroup} at the expense of everyone else. During a downturn several years ago, there was a tremendous layoff to try to maintain profitability. Most of the old guard, almost all the older higher paid Americans that didn't make it to the VP level, got axed. You reap what you sow.

throwaway28473 8y ago

Honest question: if immigrants are willing to do the same job for less money, why do US citizens deserve special treatment and higher wages? Why should companies be forced to not hire in an economically optimal way?

alehul 8y ago
I think the simpler form of that question is "what's wrong with globalism?", to which there's many answers. One of the foremost would be that an American company should support the livelihoods of the American people, especially as long as other countries like China wouldn't allow an American to work so easily in the reverse situation. It's just a natural tribal instinct, also, to care more for the welfare of your neighbor than someone across the world. I'm not commenting on the validity of those arguments, though, as I think a core part of America's success is being unusually open to immigration.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  The main problem with globalism is that capital conspires against labor but labor doesn't respond with a unified front.
  - chii 8y ago
    Yes! I think that the amount of propaganda and cultural infusion of negativity against unions (often slurring unions with communism) is the real cause of the stagnation in worker rights and wages.
  - taurath 8y ago
    Companies and money can cross borders, people cannot (generally).
  - Buldak 8y ago
    Why is that a problem principally a problem of globalism rather than capitalism?
- fickleycurious 8y ago

jcafe 8y ago

Almost ironic that this article is from Bloomberg. Recently interviewed with them for a software engineer role and the only american I talked to out of 6 people, was the recruiter.

aatharuv 8y ago
How do you know that? Did you ask everyone their citizenship /immigration status during the interview?
- jcafe 8y ago
  You are right. I jumped to conclusions. I just assumed they were h1b's because of their thick/strong accents and unamericanized names.
  - ctrlaltdestroy 8y ago
    So just being on H1B is bad now?
    - jcafe 8y ago
      No? I neither said nor implied anything negative about the character of h1b's. Bloomberg writes article about Cisco's bias for hiring h1b's over US workers. I mention my anecdotal experience with Bloomberg where nearly everyone I interacted with was not US born and had thick accents. I thought the irony was funny. Don't twist my words.
- stochastic_monk 8y ago
  It could be that the GP was using “American” to represent an issue of race rather than one of citizenship.
  - jcafe 8y ago
    I'm asian-american myself and I was interviewed by other asians who I had trouble understanding despite being brought up around my own family's accent. I wasn't using "american" to represent race or citizenship. I didn't see think of them as american because we clearly did not share anything in common and had trouble communicating with each other. Side note: My grandmother is a US citizen, but she only knows how to say "Hello" and "thank you" in english. Bringing in citizenship feels disingenuous. EDIT: Citizenship comment is regarding this conversation and not the article itself. Sorry if it seemed like an attack.

kevin_b_er 8y ago

Corporate greed at its finest. The goal was to hire employees at lower wages and who couldn't just up and leave for another company next door so easily. This combined gets them workers who aren't allowed to negotiate and who are cheaper than normal workers. When driven only by greed, all methods to get more money are always acceptable... unless you are caught.

briandear 8y ago
That’s not greed, that’s smart business. Why would you pay more for something if you didn’t have to? Is it greedy to take advantage of a sale on fruit at the grocery store rather than paying full price? The problem is visa law, not companies following that law.
- rmrfrmrf 8y ago
  Might be a controversial opinion, but I think we as humans have lost sight of the ball when we start letting capitalism drive ethics.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    And what ethics tell you that you should have the right to bar other people from working with other people?
    - rmrfrmrf 8y ago
      For Americans, reducing income disparity, which in turn would allow more money to flow within the US. For foreign employees, ending a program of indentured servitude that dangles the prospect of citizenship in front of them while providing substandard pay and limited mobility. For foreign governments, bringing talent back to their countries rather than cash, enabling the development of their own businesses and growth of their own economy.
      - conanbatt 8y ago

taurath 8y ago

> Cisco, which reported $43 billion in revenue last year, employs more than 73,000 workers at its headquarters in San Jose, Calif., and international offices. The company employed nearly 1,600 visa holders last year. If this number seems low, thats because it is. They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't show up. That they were cited at all for the 1600 visa workers in the first place is astounding to me.

gnahckire 8y ago
> They probably "employ" another 70,000 contract workers, many of which are also on visas, but since they're not on the "official" payroll they don't show up. Used to work there. I was always surprised at the volume of contractors and contracting companies were embedded within the ranks.

abtinf 8y ago

Here is a good talk on how to think about three deeply connected topics that are under attack today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXiC4wqn7EU --- Free Trade, Immigration and Robots, Oh My! One of the biggest threats America faces—we are told—is the assault on our workforce: the loss of American jobs to immigrants, to foreign competition fueled by free trade, and even to technology that will make all kinds of jobs obsolete. In this talk the Ayn Rand Institute's executive chairman, Yaron Brook, argues that this fear is entirely misplaced—that a proper grasp of the virtue of productiveness shows that far from fearing and opposing free trade, immigration and robots, we should be eagerly embracing all three. ---

ProfessorLayton 8y ago

It seems like a good solution to H1B abuse is to get rid of the lottery and move towards a bid system, but the "bid" is the foreign worker's salary. This will solve the wage suppression issue, and will grant access to talent to companies that are willing and able to pay for it.

mc32 8y ago
You can also just tax the difference from prevailing wages; take those taxes and earmark them for training of laid off workers of same industry.
- jedberg 8y ago
  In theory all H1B workers already get “prevailing wage”. It’s part of the law. So the tax would be 0. The issue is that it really isn’t prevailing wage.
- mavelikara 8y ago
  > and earmark them for training of laid off workers of same industry. A portion ($1500) of most H-1B application fees goes towards funding scholarship and training programs. This is called " ACWIA fee" - see [1] and [2] for details. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Competitiveness_and_Workforce_Improvement_Act#Section_414:_New_fees_for_scholarships_and_training https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Competitiveness_and_W... [2]: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Reports%20and%20Studies/h1b05annual_08_7.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Resources/Re...
yanslookup 8y ago
"They" are already designing this and it'll make the problem worse not better. They will keep the 4 DoL skill levels used for H1B and put caps at each level. The extra twist is it will be in the shape of a pyramid where there are fewer highly skill slots but enough for the Google's, and then a lot more for the lower levels. So that company that was continually denied their $55k level 4 "senior dev" in Dallas in the lottery is now high enough in the auction to win.

tanilama 8y ago

If Cisco pay fair share to all its employees, regardless of their status, how much more money will it cost? I would say it won't be a big number as compare to their executives bonuses.

adventured 8y ago
It would be drastically greater in fact. The issue at the heart of this story is big enough without requiring exaggeration. Cisco has 70,000 employees. Pay them all $5,000 more and it's $350 million every year (Cisco of course can in fact afford that). Cisco's CEO made $16.7 million in 2017. $1.2m in salary, $2.5m in bonus, $12.8m in stock. He's the highest compensated executive at Cisco.
conanbatt 8y ago
They wouldnt pay the fair share. They would hire less people and spend a total amount on salaries that is lower than it is now.

cc-d 8y ago

Cap minimum pay to the equivalent of $150k yearly and watch as the h1b visa program magically starts working as intended. The solution is not complicated. With the anti-immigrant rhetoric pouring from the current administration, I'm surprised that blatant h1b visa abuse is still rampant.

jeremyjh 8y ago
There is no need for an artificial cap, just make it a bidding system. The companies bid for how many workers at salary $X. Highest bids are awarded the visas. Problem solved.
- cc-d 8y ago
  This may work for tech, but I'm guessing there are quite a few other industries with low volumes of h1b applicants/workers which could utilize a "bidding system" to hire well below market rate due to decreased demand when compared to tech. $150k cap across the board ensures that all industries are kept honest. A bidding system can be added on top of that, if needed, but this extremely simple fix would ensure that the system fulfills the original goals it was created for, while adding no bureaucratic overhead.
  - Aloha 8y ago
    better idea - just make it 25-50% above prevailing wage for that kind of work.
    - jl2718 8y ago
      Then you just have job reclassification. It doesn’t work. Only money talks.
    - jlawer 8y ago
      Australian here, but had similar ideas about the visa situation in .au however I think you can't just do a +X% of "prevailing wage" If the prevailing wage is calculated based on an average, you will find big business will get lower payed workers bundled in to the industry average (i.e. apple has retail staff, most companies have call centre staff, all have janitorial staff, etc) and the "prevailing wage" will be significantly lower then it should be. If its based on job title you will just find every visa holder will have a "lower" job title (i.e. Junior rather then senior) that gives the companies a way to pay less. Thats before factoring cost of living between various locations. Special interests will ensure that the prevailing wage is drawn sufficiently lower then it should be. I think it has to remain a static value (adjusted for inflation) that is quite high (e.g. $180k->$250k AUD for Australia), enough that anyone who a company will pay that much would almost certainly be a world class employee, and if someone is worth that much, then I can't see how they wouldn't be a benefit for both the country / economy, employee and the competitiveness of the company. I have no issue with this being an unlimited visa class, and should be able to be streamlined for a much quicker approval (i.e. has the company signed an agreement that they are paying $X per year?, if yes its approved pending health and security approval). This allows companies to hire the best in the world, while not allowing them to drive down salaries with similarly skilled employees. Additionally if there is a shortage it will ensure there is some pressure to train / develop employees, innovate, automate, etc, but providing a pressure relief if needed (if supply and demand becomes unbalanced enough that people are willing to pay $180k for janitorial staff, then economically they are needed).

tfolbrecht 8y ago

I'm curious to see what happens if a company like Huawei enters the US networking hardware market after cutting its teeth. Are we supposed to go with Cisco out of patriotism? Is the general public going to petition the government for protectionism? I also wonder how long it takes wage suppression to propagate out into lower demand and shrinking GDP growth.

briandear 8y ago
I would go with Cisco because I wouldn’t trust a company that’s essentially a commercial arm of the Chinese MSS.

jtr_47 8y ago

H1B needs to be abolished. It has only been used to suppress US wages and to bring in lower paying bodies to do the same work a properly trained US Citizen could perform in IT. There's no shortage of IT skills in the USA. They should be punished to the fullest.

conanbatt 8y ago
And all websites from outside the us shoudl be blocked. The US can build its own websites, and not give any revenue or attention to any outside website. And we should build a firewall, the best you have ever seen!
seventhtiger 8y ago
That doesn't add up at all. How can there not be shortage of IT skills? IT is one of if not the most profitable field per employee with the lowest unemployment rates, and IT companies are flush with cash. IT companies would love to launch entire new products and divisions and recruitment is their bottleneck.

petilon 8y ago

If immigrants are depressing salaries, how do you explain $120,000 (base + stock + bonus) for fresh graduates, paid by Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, etc? https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-will-make-at-companies-like-facebook-and-google-in-2017.html https://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/05/heres-how-much-new-grads-wil... It's a hardened belief that jobs are a zero-sum game — and from this arises the idea that every skilled immigrant takes away a job from a U.S. worker. This isn't true. More skilled, educated workers will actually add to the economy — and grow the economy. Some companies abuse the system, and the abuse must be stopped. But immigration of the best and the brightest is what made this country a superpower, and must be encouraged. See also: http://paulgraham.com/95.html http://paulgraham.com/95.html

Kephael 8y ago
There are not unlimited new graduate roles at these companies, Microsoft was telling students they passed the interview but that slots were full at the school I attend.
dmoy 8y ago
Your number is off by tens of thousands. Your number was already off by tens of thousands like 8 years ago. Closer to $180 than $120 now.
vonmoltke 8y ago
I don't see how cherry-picking a few of the top companies demonstrates anything. The top Big Law firms pay new associates $180k+, despite the oversaturated law market. There will always be competition for the cream of the crop. Pointing out the situation for that competition says almost nothing about the rest of the market.

WalterSear 8y ago

When I was at Juniper Networks, Indian managers would routinely hire Indian employees on H1, underpay them to make them look competitive compared to US employees, and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding this from the other departments, and the 'white' people.

sush99 8y ago
Any proof to this?
- WalterSear 8y ago
  Eyewitness testimony.
kamaal 8y ago
Onsite Allowance/Bonus is very Common in Indian outsourcing firms. But its not exactly 'yacht and helicopter' money you think it is. Typically something like $1000 per year in Bonus. And they also need to keep the pay roll etc alive, because their dependents need health insurance in India. Often the biggest Perk for Indians to work in the US is not even money, its to get exposure to the first world infrastructure and overall industry scene. Even if you don't make much money, you return to India with heavily scaled up ambitions.
mavelikara 8y ago
> and then pay them an additional salary through the Indian office, hiding this from the other departments Where does this money come from? This should be budgeted somewhere, so I don't understand how this is "hidden" from others. Also, if you knew this they probably didn't do a good job of "hiding" it, did they?
- im_cynical 8y ago
  Not OP, but I spent 5 years at Cisco. It wouldn't be terribly hard to hide opex in a company that size.. there's a good deal of discretion given to middle management with their budgets and non-existent oversight.

cisco-throwaway 8y ago

I work here! I also participated in this! We needed to hire a few people at a smaller Cisco site for a project in a less than favourite BU. Recruitment reached out to me after my rec didn’t find any fits in a week and the pushed a couple candidates my way. As these candidates required sponsorship, we knew that we could probably retain them for less and for longer. I don’t have anything against Americans, but if I can get someone who is better educated, will not jump ship in 18 months, and will do more for less then I’ll jump all over that. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

dudul 8y ago
Is 1 week of open rec legally enough to justify hiring an H1B? I thought the legal requirement to justify the petition was longer than that.
jingleheimer 8y ago
And this is how populists get elected.
my_usernam3 8y ago
> I don’t have anything against Americans, but if I can get someone who is better educated, will not jump ship in 18 months, and will do more for less then I’ll jump all over that. By this logic, why not enslave children and teach them CS. The argument against cisco is the "players" are clearly trying to CHEAT "the game". H1b's are for finding talent when there isn't any, not for finding workers that won't "jump ship". The freedom to jump ship is why America is great.

Aloha 8y ago

I think the answer to this problem is to require H1B holders to be paid 25-50% above prevailing wage for that job type or sector, which would preclude just picking up someone on H1B for cost reasons.

conanbatt 8y ago
I heard a story once that in acity with rat infestations, the government proposed a bounty for each rat-tail that could be shown as evidence of having killed a rat. Promptly the rat population increased exponentially. If you made the race to salary, you can remove health benefits, PTO, stock, restricted bonuses, etc etc to artificially increase the number which would in the end harm the worker as well, since he will pay a higher tax rate for the shenanigan.

rdl 8y ago

I'd love to see H1B completely done away with. Transferrable visas for non-immigrant status freely available in exchange for a fairly massive bond and annual fee ($50-100k/yr), and immigrant visas on a much less expensive basis based on merit.

phyller 8y ago

I've seen it stated several times here on hacker news that the visas should be available for the highest salaries. And that's it. No lottery. If you want them, pay them. That makes tons of sense to me on a lot of levels, it is going to naturally destroy abuse, recruit the best and brightest to come to the US, and not cause unfair discrimination against American workers. 1,600 visa workers for Cisco seems really low though. Anecdata, but my company hired a VP from Cisco and from that point until they left we made a lot of hires, but not a single American that I am aware of.

gdilla 8y ago

So easy to fix. If you believe in free market, you also need the labor pool to be free. Let H1Bs be able to change jobs like anyone else, and wages will rise. Pretty simple. Indentured servitude is anti free market.

turtlecloud 8y ago

American engineers are getting shafted by the H1B visa program. The H1B work harder because they have a figurative gun pointed at their heads. Work or leave the country. Why would any sane American work that hard? It is a race to the bottom and the big tech companies at playin with fire. The societal damage is currently unquantifiable, but for an astute observers and people with common sense it’s not good.

kraig911 8y ago

Something needs to happen for positive change. My Indian friend recently fathered a baby and couldn't see his son almost a year later. Politics getting in the way of people just trying to make the world a better place as per usual.