15 ms·

Man Who Stole Plane Near Seattle Raises Troubling Security Question

109 points by mistersquid 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
abhiminator 8y ago
> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out. [0] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/08/11/f-15s-scrambled-after-sea-tac-airline-worker-takes-plane-spree-ends-crash.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/08/11/f-15s-scrambl...
- williamscales 8y ago
  From what I've read, the tower personnel were in communication with the individual. Perhaps they believed they could talk him down. As far as shooting down the plane, I have no idea how possible that would have been without risking greater collateral damage. Perhaps it could have been done over the sound. But this incident comes to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale
  - stevekemp 8y ago
    Very much so - the article had some audio embedded in it, but here is a longer version: http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/201808102255-590200-15227.mp3 http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/2018081022...
- JanSolo 8y ago
  Listen to the recording of ATC personnel talking to the rogue pilot. He's just a normal guy with a few screws loose. I think they correctly assessed this man to be non-threatening to ground targets. Now, if the guy was non-responsive or erratic or started making threats, I do expect that the F15s might have been used.
  - remarkEon 8y ago
    The recordings are surreal. He was talking about how beautiful Mount Rainer was and how he was going to check out the Olympics. He even asked for the coordinates to that Orca pod up here that's been in the news lately. I immediately got the sense he wasn't a threat, at least not intentionally - just a guy a bit lost. (Yes obviously I know he was still a major threat regardless of if he meant to do any harm.)
    - sakopov 8y ago
      Very much surreal. He seemed very content considering his dire circumstances. Not to take away from the severity of his actions, but the fact that he completed what looked like a barrel roll w/o seemingly any prior flight experience is interesting to say the least.
      - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
        Sounds like someone who had been contemplating suicide for a long time and was finally getting his wish. I've never felt that way myself but I can definitely see how it could be a huge relief.
  - cm2187 8y ago
    Do you trust your hijackers to announce their intention to run into a building? In fact if a 9/11 ever happens again, the hijackers will have a pretty hard job convincing the passengers this is not a suicide mission and they shouldn't rebel. I always thought that is what prevented another 9/11, not confiscating baby milk at airport security checks.
- tschwimmer 8y ago
  Armchair General warning: If you've seen the videos of the F-15s, you know that the stolen plane was definitely within engagement range [0]. It's pretty clear to me that the decision not to shoot down the plane was very intentional. I agree that a rogue plane over a densely populated area is a nightmare scenario, but also consider that debris from a shot down plane and/or an air-to-air missile over a populated area could be quite bad or worse. Couple this with the fact that the hijacker was communicating with ATC and showed no hostile intent, and it makes sense that the plane was not shot down. If I was in charge of this operation, I would have given the instruction not to shoot down the plane unless it started to make moves towards a populated area. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE
- paulcole 8y ago
  > IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down Which one of these areas would’ve been the best to shoot him down over? I thought the fighter jets were to make sure he didn’t head into downtown Seattle?
- lx3459683 8y ago
  > I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage. This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a malicious actor is near infinite. Worry about the fact that your country's healthcare system kills hundreds of thousands of people every year by denying treatment, not about what a guy in a light aircraft could have done.
  - yborg 8y ago
    The Bombardier Q400 can seat 80 people and weighs 40,000 lbs empty.
    - lx3459683 8y ago
      Which is about half of the weight of a loaded 18 wheeler.
      - geggam 8y ago
        Gravity has less of an impact on something already on the ground
        nsomaru 8y ago
        Technically gravity has more of an impact on something already on the ground, r being smaller
        ReverseCold 8y ago
        I think he just means the object in the air has higher potential energy due to gravity.
      - refurb 8y ago
        It’s kind of hard to drive an 18 wheeler into the middle of a building at 600 mph. KE = m * v
- ethbro 8y ago
  Because aside from not being trained to fly an aircraft, the pilot didn't seem to have any murderous intent. Killing an American citizen who is not presenting an immediate threat still needs a higher bar than "It's easier." Thankfully, the military pilots stayed cool in a situation like this and waited until they received orders to fire.
  - toyg 8y ago
    This. It’s like the situation with police shooting at people reaching for documents in the glovebox - presumption or fear should not be enough to deploy lethal force. Authorities should always strive to reach the best scenario, i.e. everyone safe and sound including perps. This is particularly true in situations where the perp shows clear signs of mental illness.
    - reddit_clone 8y ago
      I was watching a British TV Serial ("Scott and Bailey") recently, and was amazed at the level of professionalism expected from UK police officers (assuming it is a somewhat accurate representation of reality). One of the lead characters lands into serious, serious trouble when a drunk, fleeing suspect dies in a car crash. Makes me really sad about the 'shoot first' culture around here ..
- nostrademons 8y ago
  If you have a choice between knowingly killing a man (and perhaps several people on the gound) and waiting for him to likely crash on his own but possibly land the plane with no injuries, why would you choose the former? You can always fire on him later if it looks like he's going to be a danger to large populated areas, but if you fire on him now you know you're going to be a danger. Both TFA and your link indicate that ATC had him flying over Puget Sound, the Olympics, and other sparsely-populated areas, and had vectored all other traffic away from him. It's likely that when he flew over densely populated areas it was before the F-15s were scrambled. Watching and seeing how the situation plays out is probably their safest option in this case.
  - prolikewh0a 8y ago
    He decided to fly around Mt. Ranier and then decided to head over to the Cascades to take in the beauty and "have a moment of serenity". ATC had no control, but tried to keep him within radio distance by telling him to turn away from the cascades. The full ~1hr of ATC audio supports this.
- keypusher 8y ago
  I would imagine there is set of criteria which would absolutely trigger the fighters to bring down the plane, but those were not met, and those in charge erred on the side of caution. Bringing it down aggressively would not be without its own risks, as the aircraft and debris are still going to crash down somewhere. Additionally it means taking the life of a citizen, and causing a lot of damage that the National Guard is then somewhat responsible for, and potential PR backlash. I believe it was clear early on in this case that the guy was not a terrorist, and he didn't intend to hurt anyone, so adopting a "wait and see" approach seems quite smart.
- Rotdhizon 8y ago
  And to think, even if they decided to take him down, it would have likely been over a populated area. Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. The decision to not take the plan out as soon as they had the chance to safely was interesting. Their lack of action could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people. Interestingly enough though, a lot of people aren't too mad at what he did. Quite a few people have paid their respects to this guy. He took the plane, saw some great views and did a barrel roll, then told the fighter pilot guys he was going to bring it down himself. I do like that most sources aren't trying to paint this guy as the devil. Sure what he did was wrong, but he sure did go out in style. Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. The way the news outlets handled this was sickening. They all hopped on the opportunity to make a headline that they knew damn well would lead people to believe a fully loaded plane was hijacked mid flight. Now the implications that a ground crew person was able to board a plan unnoticed, and take off is insane. This brings up the whole perspective of sleeper agents and inside jobs. Most data breaches are from insider threats, who's to say the next big thing isn't mass deaths resulting from insider threats. Nice to see this was down voted?
  - poe876 8y ago
    9/11 was an inside job.
  - userbinator 8y ago
    Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. And even then I imagine the raining shrapnel (likely burning too) would cause plenty of chaos itself. The outcome of this was probably near the best (the best being the guy managing to land the plane safely and survive) --- it could've been much much worse.
  - rl3 8y ago
    >Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. Tex Johnston for one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk
- stopnamingnuts 8y ago
  Correct. Every neighborhood around SeaTac is densely populated.
- vvanders 8y ago
  My uninformed guess is that the F-15 were scrambled to intercept if the plane started heading towards Bangor, Bremerton shipyards or JBLM. Lots of military bases and critical infra up in the PNW, thankfully it didn't appear to be the case in this incident.
  - subway 8y ago
    I'm not sure they were terribly worried about JBLM considering they were trying to talk him into landing there.
    - afterburner 8y ago
      They probably wouldn't have if he claimed to be a terrorist or didn't reply at all...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- redthrowaway 8y ago
  He didn't give any indication of being a danger to others. He was obviously someone who was dealing with a mental health crisis, while still being present and coherent. The ATCs were trying to talk him down and get him to land; shooting the plane down would have been a last resort, only ordered if he demonstrated he was going to do harm to others.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
iamqanon 8y ago
Q predicted this.
dboreham 8y ago
Surprising it has taken decades for someone to try this. At least we don't have to wait on delayed planes while the pilot tracks down the key...
- cgdcraig 8y ago
  It's not like the engine start procedure on one of those things is a turnkey solution. The amount of domain knowledge needed serves as a form of soft security.
  - Someone1234 8y ago
    So soft, you can find the QRH in both the cockpit and online[0]. Or more fun learn it in an accurate simulator e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Z1WFDz81k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Z1WFDz81k [0] https://flyuk.aero/assets/downloads/resources/checklists/UKV-PRD-DASH8%20Q400-CHECKLIST-V1.pdf https://flyuk.aero/assets/downloads/resources/checklists/UKV...
    - duxup 8y ago
      "DOCUMENTATION ..........................................ON BOARD" Wait... isn't that what you'd be reading right there? Or is the documentation and checklist not the same thing?
      - racingmars 8y ago
        The checklist is what you'd be reading, usually a laminated one-page card kept in a convenient spot. The documentation that the checklist refers to is the full "user manual" for the plane, with things like the quick reference handbook (QRH) that includes the step-by-step procedures covering what to do for every single warning light, emergency condition, etc. Also "documentation" here could also cover the mandatory things you have to have in the plane like the airworthiness certificate, registration, FCC radio license, insurance certificate, etc. So I guess the short answer to your question is yes, in this context the documentation and checklist are not the same thing.
gumby 8y ago
> "Mr. Russell...had worked his shift on Friday." So glad they told us this important fact. I wonder if his final direct deposit (to his estate) will include that days' pay or if it will count as a vacation day? Has the news always been this inane?
- stephengillie 8y ago
  The paycheck might goto restitution.
  - gumby 8y ago
    That's an interesting point, raising a couple of interesting issues! No lives were lost (apart from the thief's) but the company is out a plane and the taxpayers are out some fuel. I know embezzlers are often required to make restitution, but I've always assumed that this was for rehabilitative purposes. Presumably companies have insurance (maybe embezzlement restitution goes to the insurance company?) and the taxpayer, well, that's what we're paying for. A second interesting question is the innocent family members who presumably have depended on the income from the thief. Clearly the last (partial?) paycheck won't be material either way, but who would be "punished" and whom "provided restitution" in this case?
- adjagu 8y ago
  That sentence did stick out to me too. As abrupt and lacking further information as it was it did serve to notify us as to how he was able to be on the tarmac and gain access to the airplane. I do feel that the author could have expanded that thought a bit more.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    I think helped show how sudden this change was. One day, he's working his normal job, another he's stealing a plane and crashing it into an island.
    - gumby 8y ago
beenBoutIT 8y ago
It's really nice to see American Air Supremacy in response to a potential terrorist air threat. Neutralizing the stolen plane with a Sidewinder missile would have provided a slightly better show of force to would-be terrorists, but this was pretty good IMO. Our Air Force is more powerful than it's ever been, while our mental health system was better off back in the 1940s.
- jkaplowitz 8y ago
  I'm glad they deployed the fighter jets in case they were needed, but I'm equally glad they tried to avoid firing and managed to do so. While I applaud them for handling the possibility of terrorism, I applaud them even more for evaluating the actual situation and reacting proportionately. Tragic incident, but well handled by NORAD.
- h4b4n3r0 8y ago
  Had the guy been a terrorist, he could have flown that plane into Seattle or into SeatTac airport itself. They wouldn't get here in time because they were flying in from Portland. We all got lucky this time.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    We got more lucky today - nobody stole any airplanes at all!
  - zifnab06 8y ago
    F-15 max speed is 1646mph (around 0.45 mi/s). From take off in Portland to arriving at SeaTac would be less than 5 minutes at top speed. I assume it takes longer than that to get pilots in planes and takeoff. Seattle also has JBLM (joint base Lewis/McChord, army and air Force), along with Bremerton naval base. I'm guessing they picked pdx because of pilot availability, travel time is near nothing compared to getting a plane in the air at those distances. This could have been much worse. I feel bad for the guy, he needed help, but I'm glad it ended how it did. Crashing into another plane, or anywhere populated, would have been catastrophic.
mistersquid 8y ago
Two things really caught me about this story besides the security implication. First, the skill Russell deployed from (only?) having used a PC flight simulator surprised me. If Russell in fact never had any flight experience outside a simulator, well, I'm just stunned at what he was capable of doing. (Linked in article, here for convenience.) [0] Second, and more importantly, Russell's demise is tragic, pure and simple. He seems relatively smart, had loved ones who cared about him, and was well-liked and well-regarded by his peers and co-workers. Yet, something was very broken for Russell. I won't speculate about what may have caused Russell's despair, but I can't help but feel his demise could have been avoided. I wish this story had a different ending. [0] https://twitter.com/CameronThomsen/status/1028157648158568448 https://twitter.com/CameronThomsen/status/102815764815856844... EDIT: readability
- AmVess 8y ago
  There are flight simulator packages available for many different planes, including the Q400. They feature fully functional cockpits. Here's a tutorial of the Q400's sim cockpit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7mMDBamvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7mMDBamvw
- chrisper 8y ago
  I have put many hours in flight simulators (the ones you can install on your own PC). One day I decided to take a real flying lesson. It was almost the same as in the simulator. Obviously the controls are a bit different because of different feedback, but you get used to it quickly. I think what helps a lot is that there are so many very detailed plane packages out there you can buy for the simulators. Too bad the community is kind of toxic, so I stopped playing these games. Obviously it's not enough to get a pilot license because there are some things that you just can't do in a simulator.
  - close04 8y ago
    There's one thing that really bugs me: why is everyone so surprised that an airport worker who was familiar with the planes managed to take off? The reason this bugs me is that the 9/11 investigation concluded that multiple people with 0 flight experience can be taught to accurately steer a large commercial jet after just a short time training on small aircraft. In this frame of reference managing to take of in a small turboprop in good weather conditions shouldn't surprise anybody. P.S. OK, I missed the part where "the plane was doing deep dives, broad loops and at least one upside-down roll"... But the "bug" is still there. If it's generally accepted that you can learn your way in a 747 cockpit on relatively short notice, doing dives and loops with a small plane shouldn't be that unbelievable. And I say this as a person who can comfortably take off and land a Piper Cherokee but was pretty dumbfounded when sitting in the captain's seat of a 747 for the first time.
fipple 8y ago
There is of course a lot sad about this story but something joyful as well. Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration.
- justboxing 8y ago
  > Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration. ...and without costing tax payers (F-15 fighter jets scrambling) and private companies (the airlines that owned the crashed plane) millions of dollars, causing stress and anxiety to people boarding other flights at Seattle airport and the subsequent delays to everyone else.
  - fipple 8y ago
    If there’s a day I know I will die, you can be sure that other people’s money and stress will be pretty low on my priority list.
  - colejohnson66 8y ago
    You’ve clearly never been suicidal. When you are, you don’t care about anything; not even yourself. Also, nothing scares you. So when you finally kill yourself, pain to yourself and others are the least of your worries.
    - reustle 8y ago
      But that was not the case here. The guy was pretty open about not wanting to hurt or even inconvenience anyone else.
      - fipple 8y ago
        I think he drew a great line: he didn’t want to hurt anyone but didn’t mind destroying property.
    - afterburner 8y ago
      I don't think the person you replied to claimed anything in contradiction to what you wrote.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
aaronmck 8y ago
The article title seems like an overreaction to a really sad situation. We have to trust at least someone, and although he clearly had some issues (maybe recent), he wasn't out to hurt anyone or aligned with any groups that wanted to inflict harm. Fighter jets were there immediately, people tried to talk him down, and he was lost. Nothing better could have been done all around. Yes, commercial planes could be keycoded or controlled in some other way, but I think most engineers in a controlled setting will agree this creates exponentially more day-to-day headaches than catastrophic situations it prevents.
- cncrnd 8y ago
  Hmm I don't think it's that much of a headache to have some PIN code provided to pilots as an additional measure. These planes aren't cheap, even a small personal jet is in the low millions. A Boeing 747 or similar is in the hundreds of millions.
  - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
    Yeah, a freakin _ignition key_ would have made this whole thing impossible.
    - Toenex 8y ago
      Unless of course as an employee he had access to one.
      - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
        Well, require that only pilots have access to the key then.
        cookingrobot 8y ago
        Or let air traffic control diasable any plane while it’s taxiing.
ojiikun 8y ago
rulgdg. - . 1
- larkeith 8y ago
  What?
noja 8y ago
This is something we handle really, really badly. One bad thing happens one time (like a failed shoe bomb), and so everybody forever-more has to be permanently inconvenienced every day. Whatever the response to this incident is, I hope (and doubt) that it will also balance the CHANCE of this happening against the huge cost and inconvenience of making it "impossible" to ever happen again. We all know that 100% and "impossible" is not going to work, and we all know that lame "for show" security measures are a huge waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere. The question that needs to be asked and will not is: what would be the most best positive impact for that same amount of money? It won't be asked because it's a hard question and people are scared of hard questions. Better make a Space Corps instead.
- speedplane 8y ago
  I've always wondered about the true value of "for show" security measures. Requiring millions of passengers to spend 5 minutes more going through security to undergo procedures that wouldn't stop a determined terrorist definitely seems like a huge waste. However, if the government didn't do "something", it's pretty likely that trust in the US air transportation system would shrink. Wouldn't crush it, but maybe 3 of 100 passengers would forgo air travel because they didn't feel comfortable or that their government isn't on top of it. And maybe that 3% decrease corresponds in $XXX Million in lost revenue for airlines. So I'd believe that "for show" security measures don't actually increase security, but I'd also bet that they increase airline ridership. The moral of the story is that it's an economic response, not a security one.
  - noja 8y ago
    Sure, but it's also dishonest. It only happens and works because there is no honest conversation between the money spender (the government) and the voters. Wasting money and theater is a tax on the 97% who still would have flown.
  - thunfischbrot 8y ago
    The opposite effect happens as well: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/excess_automobi.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/excess_automo... > The inconvenience of extra passenger screening and added costs at airports after 9/11 cause many short-haul passengers to drive to their destination instead, and, since airline travel is far safer than car travel, this has led to an increase of 500 U.S. traffic fatalities per year. Using DHS-mandated value of statistical life at $6.5 million, this equates to a loss of $3.2 billion per year, or $32 billion over the period 2002 to 2011 (Blalock et al. 2007).
phobosdeimos 8y ago
Your average airport has thousands of employees. Airports are thoroughly infiltrated by criminal gangs smuggling drugs. They don't do full background checks on everyone who works there let alone psychological tests.
salawat 8y ago
It seems to me to be a continuation of the pattern of labor 'Going Postal' in the labor hostile environment that has emerged since Reagan. This should be a wake-up call to everyone in the country. We can't survive without being able to trust and respect each other as human beings. Part of that is recognizing that even the most humble occupations deserve a fair wage and chance at advancement in life. If we can't respect the people who put in 8 hour days on our behalf and fulfill our obligations to them as responsible business owners/organizers, we are doomed to see repeats of this type of tragedy. People seek purpose, and many are content to do even the more "mundane" jobs so long as the compensation is fair. Too many places seek to be successful on Wall Street's terms rather than in providing a service to their community. I'm sure an MBA will surface and tell me I'm wrong, but I've not encountered a workplace that didn't marginalize their workers and generated a tragedy of the likes that has become a hallmark of the last 50 years. God Speed, Russell. May your death have not been in vain. [0]Going Postal: Rage, Murder, and Rebellion in America, Mark Ames
- hueving 8y ago
  Pointless attempt to tie a political view to a tragedy, please don't do this. There have been massacres, bombings, dramatic suicides, etc long before the Reagan administration and none of them have claimed "If I would have only had 20% more compensation I wouldn't have violently murdered these 20 people." P.S. It's godspeed, not "God speed".
  - pentae 8y ago
    I'd suggest looking at more data before we cast politics aside - I would like to compare the amount of mental health issues that manifest themselves like this one ranging up to mass violence with other countries. My hypothesis is countries with a larger middle class and robust social care (such as access to affordable health care) have less of these events.
  - kingjacob 8y ago
    No one says that outright but poverty and violent extremism are pretty closely linked. Its not the only factor ofc, and youll always have outliers, but comfortable people with things worth losing are less likely to do something to endanger that.
Animats 8y ago
A somewhat similar incident: FedEx flight 705.[1] Hijack by an authorized person. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705
unchurch 8y ago
> Mr. Russell and his wife were active church members, Mr. Orr said, “so he doesn’t really fit the bill of someone who would steal an airplane.” Can we please stop insinuating that people who attend church are perfect and incapable of doing wrong and, by omission, insinuating that those of us who do not are evil? Edit: If the downvoters would like to explain how I’m wrong, that would be lovely.
- pseudalopex 8y ago
  "Active church member" tends to imply more than just attending. The statement could reflect religious bias or just mean Russell was seen as a dependable member of his community.
- refurb 8y ago
  I think you’re arguing a point that isn’t being made.
  - unchurch 8y ago
    And when has that ever stopped Hacker News?

109 points by mistersquid 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

> Mr. Russell stole a plane from the airport and flew it for about an hour before it crashed. (emphasis mine) Wonder why Air National Guard's scrambled F-15s [0] didn't engage and bring the plane down before the individual commandeering the prop -- Mr. Russell -- brought the aircraft down with himself in the Ketron Island. IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down, and I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out. [0] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/08/11/f-15s-scrambled-after-sea-tac-airline-worker-takes-plane-spree-ends-crash.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/08/11/f-15s-scrambl...

williamscales 8y ago
From what I've read, the tower personnel were in communication with the individual. Perhaps they believed they could talk him down. As far as shooting down the plane, I have no idea how possible that would have been without risking greater collateral damage. Perhaps it could have been done over the sound. But this incident comes to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Palmdale
- stevekemp 8y ago
  Very much so - the article had some audio embedded in it, but here is a longer version: http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/201808102255-590200-15227.mp3 http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/2018081022...
JanSolo 8y ago
Listen to the recording of ATC personnel talking to the rogue pilot. He's just a normal guy with a few screws loose. I think they correctly assessed this man to be non-threatening to ground targets. Now, if the guy was non-responsive or erratic or started making threats, I do expect that the F15s might have been used.
- remarkEon 8y ago
  The recordings are surreal. He was talking about how beautiful Mount Rainer was and how he was going to check out the Olympics. He even asked for the coordinates to that Orca pod up here that's been in the news lately. I immediately got the sense he wasn't a threat, at least not intentionally - just a guy a bit lost. (Yes obviously I know he was still a major threat regardless of if he meant to do any harm.)
  - sakopov 8y ago
    Very much surreal. He seemed very content considering his dire circumstances. Not to take away from the severity of his actions, but the fact that he completed what looked like a barrel roll w/o seemingly any prior flight experience is interesting to say the least.
    - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
      Sounds like someone who had been contemplating suicide for a long time and was finally getting his wish. I've never felt that way myself but I can definitely see how it could be a huge relief.
- cm2187 8y ago
  Do you trust your hijackers to announce their intention to run into a building? In fact if a 9/11 ever happens again, the hijackers will have a pretty hard job convincing the passengers this is not a suicide mission and they shouldn't rebel. I always thought that is what prevented another 9/11, not confiscating baby milk at airport security checks.
tschwimmer 8y ago
Armchair General warning: If you've seen the videos of the F-15s, you know that the stolen plane was definitely within engagement range [0]. It's pretty clear to me that the decision not to shoot down the plane was very intentional. I agree that a rogue plane over a densely populated area is a nightmare scenario, but also consider that debris from a shot down plane and/or an air-to-air missile over a populated area could be quite bad or worse. Couple this with the fact that the hijacker was communicating with ATC and showed no hostile intent, and it makes sense that the plane was not shot down. If I was in charge of this operation, I would have given the instruction not to shoot down the plane unless it started to make moves towards a populated area. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=HJld_TYTcAE
paulcole 8y ago
> IIRC, the plane flew over several densely populated areas before going down Which one of these areas would’ve been the best to shoot him down over? I thought the fighter jets were to make sure he didn’t head into downtown Seattle?
lx3459683 8y ago
> I can imagine a thousand horrifically different ways this could have turned out Like what? It's a small prop plane with a tiny amount of fuel and mass. Stealing a truck is considerably easier and can be used to do considerably more damage. This 'hurr so scary we need to act' line of reasoning is why people have traded all their freedoms away in exchange for illusionary protection. The attack surface from a malicious actor is near infinite. Worry about the fact that your country's healthcare system kills hundreds of thousands of people every year by denying treatment, not about what a guy in a light aircraft could have done.
- yborg 8y ago
  The Bombardier Q400 can seat 80 people and weighs 40,000 lbs empty.
  - lx3459683 8y ago
    Which is about half of the weight of a loaded 18 wheeler.
    - geggam 8y ago
      Gravity has less of an impact on something already on the ground
      - nsomaru 8y ago
        Technically gravity has more of an impact on something already on the ground, r being smaller
        ReverseCold 8y ago
        I think he just means the object in the air has higher potential energy due to gravity.
    - refurb 8y ago
      It’s kind of hard to drive an 18 wheeler into the middle of a building at 600 mph. KE = m * v
ethbro 8y ago
Because aside from not being trained to fly an aircraft, the pilot didn't seem to have any murderous intent. Killing an American citizen who is not presenting an immediate threat still needs a higher bar than "It's easier." Thankfully, the military pilots stayed cool in a situation like this and waited until they received orders to fire.
- toyg 8y ago
  This. It’s like the situation with police shooting at people reaching for documents in the glovebox - presumption or fear should not be enough to deploy lethal force. Authorities should always strive to reach the best scenario, i.e. everyone safe and sound including perps. This is particularly true in situations where the perp shows clear signs of mental illness.
  - reddit_clone 8y ago
    I was watching a British TV Serial ("Scott and Bailey") recently, and was amazed at the level of professionalism expected from UK police officers (assuming it is a somewhat accurate representation of reality). One of the lead characters lands into serious, serious trouble when a drunk, fleeing suspect dies in a car crash. Makes me really sad about the 'shoot first' culture around here ..
nostrademons 8y ago
If you have a choice between knowingly killing a man (and perhaps several people on the gound) and waiting for him to likely crash on his own but possibly land the plane with no injuries, why would you choose the former? You can always fire on him later if it looks like he's going to be a danger to large populated areas, but if you fire on him now you know you're going to be a danger. Both TFA and your link indicate that ATC had him flying over Puget Sound, the Olympics, and other sparsely-populated areas, and had vectored all other traffic away from him. It's likely that when he flew over densely populated areas it was before the F-15s were scrambled. Watching and seeing how the situation plays out is probably their safest option in this case.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  He decided to fly around Mt. Ranier and then decided to head over to the Cascades to take in the beauty and "have a moment of serenity". ATC had no control, but tried to keep him within radio distance by telling him to turn away from the cascades. The full ~1hr of ATC audio supports this.
keypusher 8y ago
I would imagine there is set of criteria which would absolutely trigger the fighters to bring down the plane, but those were not met, and those in charge erred on the side of caution. Bringing it down aggressively would not be without its own risks, as the aircraft and debris are still going to crash down somewhere. Additionally it means taking the life of a citizen, and causing a lot of damage that the National Guard is then somewhat responsible for, and potential PR backlash. I believe it was clear early on in this case that the guy was not a terrorist, and he didn't intend to hurt anyone, so adopting a "wait and see" approach seems quite smart.
Rotdhizon 8y ago
And to think, even if they decided to take him down, it would have likely been over a populated area. Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. The decision to not take the plan out as soon as they had the chance to safely was interesting. Their lack of action could have resulted in the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people. Interestingly enough though, a lot of people aren't too mad at what he did. Quite a few people have paid their respects to this guy. He took the plane, saw some great views and did a barrel roll, then told the fighter pilot guys he was going to bring it down himself. I do like that most sources aren't trying to paint this guy as the devil. Sure what he did was wrong, but he sure did go out in style. Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. The way the news outlets handled this was sickening. They all hopped on the opportunity to make a headline that they knew damn well would lead people to believe a fully loaded plane was hijacked mid flight. Now the implications that a ground crew person was able to board a plan unnoticed, and take off is insane. This brings up the whole perspective of sleeper agents and inside jobs. Most data breaches are from insider threats, who's to say the next big thing isn't mass deaths resulting from insider threats. Nice to see this was down voted?
- poe876 8y ago
  9/11 was an inside job.
- userbinator 8y ago
  Unless they disintegrated it with missiles while in the sky, it likely would have ended in a catastrophe. And even then I imagine the raining shrapnel (likely burning too) would cause plenty of chaos itself. The outcome of this was probably near the best (the best being the guy managing to land the plane safely and survive) --- it could've been much much worse.
- rl3 8y ago
  >Who else can ever say they did a freaking barrel roll in a commercial airliner. Tex Johnston for one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk
stopnamingnuts 8y ago
Correct. Every neighborhood around SeaTac is densely populated.
vvanders 8y ago
My uninformed guess is that the F-15 were scrambled to intercept if the plane started heading towards Bangor, Bremerton shipyards or JBLM. Lots of military bases and critical infra up in the PNW, thankfully it didn't appear to be the case in this incident.
- subway 8y ago
  I'm not sure they were terribly worried about JBLM considering they were trying to talk him into landing there.
  - afterburner 8y ago
    They probably wouldn't have if he claimed to be a terrorist or didn't reply at all...
deleted 8y ago
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redthrowaway 8y ago
He didn't give any indication of being a danger to others. He was obviously someone who was dealing with a mental health crisis, while still being present and coherent. The ATCs were trying to talk him down and get him to land; shooting the plane down would have been a last resort, only ordered if he demonstrated he was going to do harm to others.

deleted 8y ago

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iamqanon 8y ago

Q predicted this.

dboreham 8y ago

Surprising it has taken decades for someone to try this. At least we don't have to wait on delayed planes while the pilot tracks down the key...

cgdcraig 8y ago
It's not like the engine start procedure on one of those things is a turnkey solution. The amount of domain knowledge needed serves as a form of soft security.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  So soft, you can find the QRH in both the cockpit and online[0]. Or more fun learn it in an accurate simulator e.g.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Z1WFDz81k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0Z1WFDz81k [0] https://flyuk.aero/assets/downloads/resources/checklists/UKV-PRD-DASH8%20Q400-CHECKLIST-V1.pdf https://flyuk.aero/assets/downloads/resources/checklists/UKV...
  - duxup 8y ago
    "DOCUMENTATION ..........................................ON BOARD" Wait... isn't that what you'd be reading right there? Or is the documentation and checklist not the same thing?
    - racingmars 8y ago
      The checklist is what you'd be reading, usually a laminated one-page card kept in a convenient spot. The documentation that the checklist refers to is the full "user manual" for the plane, with things like the quick reference handbook (QRH) that includes the step-by-step procedures covering what to do for every single warning light, emergency condition, etc. Also "documentation" here could also cover the mandatory things you have to have in the plane like the airworthiness certificate, registration, FCC radio license, insurance certificate, etc. So I guess the short answer to your question is yes, in this context the documentation and checklist are not the same thing.

gumby 8y ago

> "Mr. Russell...had worked his shift on Friday." So glad they told us this important fact. I wonder if his final direct deposit (to his estate) will include that days' pay or if it will count as a vacation day? Has the news always been this inane?

stephengillie 8y ago
The paycheck might goto restitution.
- gumby 8y ago
  That's an interesting point, raising a couple of interesting issues! No lives were lost (apart from the thief's) but the company is out a plane and the taxpayers are out some fuel. I know embezzlers are often required to make restitution, but I've always assumed that this was for rehabilitative purposes. Presumably companies have insurance (maybe embezzlement restitution goes to the insurance company?) and the taxpayer, well, that's what we're paying for. A second interesting question is the innocent family members who presumably have depended on the income from the thief. Clearly the last (partial?) paycheck won't be material either way, but who would be "punished" and whom "provided restitution" in this case?
adjagu 8y ago
That sentence did stick out to me too. As abrupt and lacking further information as it was it did serve to notify us as to how he was able to be on the tarmac and gain access to the airplane. I do feel that the author could have expanded that thought a bit more.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  I think helped show how sudden this change was. One day, he's working his normal job, another he's stealing a plane and crashing it into an island.
  - gumby 8y ago

beenBoutIT 8y ago

It's really nice to see American Air Supremacy in response to a potential terrorist air threat. Neutralizing the stolen plane with a Sidewinder missile would have provided a slightly better show of force to would-be terrorists, but this was pretty good IMO. Our Air Force is more powerful than it's ever been, while our mental health system was better off back in the 1940s.

jkaplowitz 8y ago
I'm glad they deployed the fighter jets in case they were needed, but I'm equally glad they tried to avoid firing and managed to do so. While I applaud them for handling the possibility of terrorism, I applaud them even more for evaluating the actual situation and reacting proportionately. Tragic incident, but well handled by NORAD.
h4b4n3r0 8y ago
Had the guy been a terrorist, he could have flown that plane into Seattle or into SeatTac airport itself. They wouldn't get here in time because they were flying in from Portland. We all got lucky this time.
- icebraining 8y ago
  We got more lucky today - nobody stole any airplanes at all!
- zifnab06 8y ago
  F-15 max speed is 1646mph (around 0.45 mi/s). From take off in Portland to arriving at SeaTac would be less than 5 minutes at top speed. I assume it takes longer than that to get pilots in planes and takeoff. Seattle also has JBLM (joint base Lewis/McChord, army and air Force), along with Bremerton naval base. I'm guessing they picked pdx because of pilot availability, travel time is near nothing compared to getting a plane in the air at those distances. This could have been much worse. I feel bad for the guy, he needed help, but I'm glad it ended how it did. Crashing into another plane, or anywhere populated, would have been catastrophic.

mistersquid 8y ago

Two things really caught me about this story besides the security implication. First, the skill Russell deployed from (only?) having used a PC flight simulator surprised me. If Russell in fact never had any flight experience outside a simulator, well, I'm just stunned at what he was capable of doing. (Linked in article, here for convenience.) [0] Second, and more importantly, Russell's demise is tragic, pure and simple. He seems relatively smart, had loved ones who cared about him, and was well-liked and well-regarded by his peers and co-workers. Yet, something was very broken for Russell. I won't speculate about what may have caused Russell's despair, but I can't help but feel his demise could have been avoided. I wish this story had a different ending. [0] https://twitter.com/CameronThomsen/status/1028157648158568448 https://twitter.com/CameronThomsen/status/102815764815856844... EDIT: readability

AmVess 8y ago
There are flight simulator packages available for many different planes, including the Q400. They feature fully functional cockpits. Here's a tutorial of the Q400's sim cockpit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7mMDBamvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl7mMDBamvw
chrisper 8y ago
I have put many hours in flight simulators (the ones you can install on your own PC). One day I decided to take a real flying lesson. It was almost the same as in the simulator. Obviously the controls are a bit different because of different feedback, but you get used to it quickly. I think what helps a lot is that there are so many very detailed plane packages out there you can buy for the simulators. Too bad the community is kind of toxic, so I stopped playing these games. Obviously it's not enough to get a pilot license because there are some things that you just can't do in a simulator.
- close04 8y ago
  There's one thing that really bugs me: why is everyone so surprised that an airport worker who was familiar with the planes managed to take off? The reason this bugs me is that the 9/11 investigation concluded that multiple people with 0 flight experience can be taught to accurately steer a large commercial jet after just a short time training on small aircraft. In this frame of reference managing to take of in a small turboprop in good weather conditions shouldn't surprise anybody. P.S. OK, I missed the part where "the plane was doing deep dives, broad loops and at least one upside-down roll"... But the "bug" is still there. If it's generally accepted that you can learn your way in a 747 cockpit on relatively short notice, doing dives and loops with a small plane shouldn't be that unbelievable. And I say this as a person who can comfortably take off and land a Piper Cherokee but was pretty dumbfounded when sitting in the captain's seat of a 747 for the first time.

fipple 8y ago

There is of course a lot sad about this story but something joyful as well. Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration.

justboxing 8y ago
> Many people commit suicide without such a final moment of exhilaration. ...and without costing tax payers (F-15 fighter jets scrambling) and private companies (the airlines that owned the crashed plane) millions of dollars, causing stress and anxiety to people boarding other flights at Seattle airport and the subsequent delays to everyone else.
- fipple 8y ago
  If there’s a day I know I will die, you can be sure that other people’s money and stress will be pretty low on my priority list.
- colejohnson66 8y ago
  You’ve clearly never been suicidal. When you are, you don’t care about anything; not even yourself. Also, nothing scares you. So when you finally kill yourself, pain to yourself and others are the least of your worries.
  - reustle 8y ago
    But that was not the case here. The guy was pretty open about not wanting to hurt or even inconvenience anyone else.
    - fipple 8y ago
      I think he drew a great line: he didn’t want to hurt anyone but didn’t mind destroying property.
  - afterburner 8y ago
    I don't think the person you replied to claimed anything in contradiction to what you wrote.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

aaronmck 8y ago

The article title seems like an overreaction to a really sad situation. We have to trust at least someone, and although he clearly had some issues (maybe recent), he wasn't out to hurt anyone or aligned with any groups that wanted to inflict harm. Fighter jets were there immediately, people tried to talk him down, and he was lost. Nothing better could have been done all around. Yes, commercial planes could be keycoded or controlled in some other way, but I think most engineers in a controlled setting will agree this creates exponentially more day-to-day headaches than catastrophic situations it prevents.

cncrnd 8y ago
Hmm I don't think it's that much of a headache to have some PIN code provided to pilots as an additional measure. These planes aren't cheap, even a small personal jet is in the low millions. A Boeing 747 or similar is in the hundreds of millions.
- h4b4n3r0 8y ago
  Yeah, a freakin _ignition key_ would have made this whole thing impossible.
  - Toenex 8y ago
    Unless of course as an employee he had access to one.
    - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
      Well, require that only pilots have access to the key then.
      - cookingrobot 8y ago
        Or let air traffic control diasable any plane while it’s taxiing.

ojiikun 8y ago

rulgdg. - . 1

larkeith 8y ago
What?

noja 8y ago

This is something we handle really, really badly. One bad thing happens one time (like a failed shoe bomb), and so everybody forever-more has to be permanently inconvenienced every day. Whatever the response to this incident is, I hope (and doubt) that it will also balance the CHANCE of this happening against the huge cost and inconvenience of making it "impossible" to ever happen again. We all know that 100% and "impossible" is not going to work, and we all know that lame "for show" security measures are a huge waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere. The question that needs to be asked and will not is: what would be the most best positive impact for that same amount of money? It won't be asked because it's a hard question and people are scared of hard questions. Better make a Space Corps instead.

speedplane 8y ago
I've always wondered about the true value of "for show" security measures. Requiring millions of passengers to spend 5 minutes more going through security to undergo procedures that wouldn't stop a determined terrorist definitely seems like a huge waste. However, if the government didn't do "something", it's pretty likely that trust in the US air transportation system would shrink. Wouldn't crush it, but maybe 3 of 100 passengers would forgo air travel because they didn't feel comfortable or that their government isn't on top of it. And maybe that 3% decrease corresponds in $XXX Million in lost revenue for airlines. So I'd believe that "for show" security measures don't actually increase security, but I'd also bet that they increase airline ridership. The moral of the story is that it's an economic response, not a security one.
- noja 8y ago
  Sure, but it's also dishonest. It only happens and works because there is no honest conversation between the money spender (the government) and the voters. Wasting money and theater is a tax on the 97% who still would have flown.
- thunfischbrot 8y ago
  The opposite effect happens as well: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/excess_automobi.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/excess_automo... > The inconvenience of extra passenger screening and added costs at airports after 9/11 cause many short-haul passengers to drive to their destination instead, and, since airline travel is far safer than car travel, this has led to an increase of 500 U.S. traffic fatalities per year. Using DHS-mandated value of statistical life at $6.5 million, this equates to a loss of $3.2 billion per year, or $32 billion over the period 2002 to 2011 (Blalock et al. 2007).

phobosdeimos 8y ago

Your average airport has thousands of employees. Airports are thoroughly infiltrated by criminal gangs smuggling drugs. They don't do full background checks on everyone who works there let alone psychological tests.

salawat 8y ago

It seems to me to be a continuation of the pattern of labor 'Going Postal' in the labor hostile environment that has emerged since Reagan. This should be a wake-up call to everyone in the country. We can't survive without being able to trust and respect each other as human beings. Part of that is recognizing that even the most humble occupations deserve a fair wage and chance at advancement in life. If we can't respect the people who put in 8 hour days on our behalf and fulfill our obligations to them as responsible business owners/organizers, we are doomed to see repeats of this type of tragedy. People seek purpose, and many are content to do even the more "mundane" jobs so long as the compensation is fair. Too many places seek to be successful on Wall Street's terms rather than in providing a service to their community. I'm sure an MBA will surface and tell me I'm wrong, but I've not encountered a workplace that didn't marginalize their workers and generated a tragedy of the likes that has become a hallmark of the last 50 years. God Speed, Russell. May your death have not been in vain. [0]Going Postal: Rage, Murder, and Rebellion in America, Mark Ames

hueving 8y ago
Pointless attempt to tie a political view to a tragedy, please don't do this. There have been massacres, bombings, dramatic suicides, etc long before the Reagan administration and none of them have claimed "If I would have only had 20% more compensation I wouldn't have violently murdered these 20 people." P.S. It's godspeed, not "God speed".
- pentae 8y ago
  I'd suggest looking at more data before we cast politics aside - I would like to compare the amount of mental health issues that manifest themselves like this one ranging up to mass violence with other countries. My hypothesis is countries with a larger middle class and robust social care (such as access to affordable health care) have less of these events.
- kingjacob 8y ago
  No one says that outright but poverty and violent extremism are pretty closely linked. Its not the only factor ofc, and youll always have outliers, but comfortable people with things worth losing are less likely to do something to endanger that.

Animats 8y ago

A somewhat similar incident: FedEx flight 705.[1] Hijack by an authorized person. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705

unchurch 8y ago

> Mr. Russell and his wife were active church members, Mr. Orr said, “so he doesn’t really fit the bill of someone who would steal an airplane.” Can we please stop insinuating that people who attend church are perfect and incapable of doing wrong and, by omission, insinuating that those of us who do not are evil? Edit: If the downvoters would like to explain how I’m wrong, that would be lovely.

pseudalopex 8y ago
"Active church member" tends to imply more than just attending. The statement could reflect religious bias or just mean Russell was seen as a dependable member of his community.
refurb 8y ago
I think you’re arguing a point that isn’t being made.
- unchurch 8y ago
  And when has that ever stopped Hacker News?