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I’m leaving China
- ad0n1s_97 8y agowhy?
- milcron 8y ago"concerns about the illiberal, authoritarian communist government of China"
- rjvbk 8y agoThat's not everything the TFA says. It begins talking about how uncivil the Chinese are.
- noobermin 8y agoI am sympathetic to the discussion of the government. The emphasis on line cutting and gawking is interesting as a foreigner (experienced gawking too in Seoul) but it does seem to contradict the author's contention that the reason for leaving has nothing to do with Chinese people and culture.
- pmarreck 8y agoThat's a fair point.
- throwaway37585 8y ago> the author's contention that the reason for leaving has nothing to do with Chinese people and culture Where does he say that?
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoI don’t believe uncivil behavior has anything to do with Chinese people and culture, it is only something that the government leads society and is less prevalent in other Chinese societies (Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc...).
- meiraleal 8y agoNo, it begins with: "In early November 2017, the HSBC Business School informed me they would not renew my contract. In March 2018 they informed me they wished to sever all ties by April 1, 2018."
- draw_down 8y agoAn interesting read. I think the author does not quite describe the extent of America’s problems with things like consistent rule of law, but then I’ve never been to China.
- lainga 8y agoAll powers we demand can be used against us at some point.
- regressiveparty 8y agoD-DOSed?
- partiallypro 8y agoWordpress doesn't scale that well, I assume the database was just overloaded.
- exotree 8y agoIt scales just fine. Some of the world’s largest publications run on it.
- partiallypro 8y agoYou're talking about people on Wordpress VIP vs something that is on JustHost. This likely didn't scale at all. Anyhow, you can scale Wordpress, I do it every day in Azure, but it's not something that does well on the fly. I'm not attacking Wordpress.
- andrewclunn 8y agoLight grey on white. Nope I just can't do it.
- gpm 8y agoArchived copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20180717142635/http://www.baldingsworld.com/2018/07/17/balding-out/ https://web.archive.org/web/20180717142635/http://www.baldin...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- pascoej 8y agoA good read. It’s really crazy that almost everything you do on Chinese internet is strongly linked to your identity too.
- pmarreck 8y agoSpeaking as someone essentially atheist (or at least, secular humanist), this entire piece is IMHO the strongest [secular] argument that can be made for Christianity's positive effect on Western values.
- ShabbosGoy 8y agoTo be honest, it read to me like the ramblings of an unemployed academic who’s struggling to find employment. Academia breeds and welcomes this type of toxic attitude and personality. The sad part is, this piece is passed off as intellectual, when the author himself didn’t reflect on anything in his time in China. He looks at the Chinese as the “Other”, much like many academics looked at Japan in the 80s as some menacing threat they could never understand. Overall, I rate it 5/10.
- curuinor 8y agoDude was fully employed as effectively-tenured (tenure track, theoretically) professor for a decade. The forcing out was for 100% political reasons. If he treated China as an Other, then it was with a decade's worth of experience living full-time in China.
- throwaway37585 8y agoGot anything to back up those insults of yours? > the author himself didn’t reflect on anything in his time in China Patently and objectively false to anyone who read the article. It really makes me wonder what your motivations are for lying so blatantly.
- ShabbosGoy 8y ago> Patently and objectively false to anyone who read the article. It really makes me wonder what your motivations are for lying so blatantly. Wrong. He clearly didn’t, because he describes a caricature of a Chinese person, reminiscent of a Fu Manchu type character that is dishonest and untrustworthy. Your motivations were clearly revealed the moment you created a throwaway account my man.
- xmly 8y agoSo this guy lived in China in 7 years and never felt anything wrong. But after he lost his job, suddenly felt threat from ccp? This is just a pathetic guy who lost job and try to get some credits by blaming ccp. Just like blaming everything to russia.
- sctb 8y agoPlease don't post unsubstantive flame-y comments like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- forkLding 8y agoBaldings' words parallel Domino Theory.
- kevin_b_er 8y agoI find it strange that the author continues to reiterate how they're a libertarian and even criticizes the "god is money" view of the Chinese, when back here in the United States the god is indeed money too, we just pretend it is not. Libertarianism requires the same practice around fiscal matters. The god must be money under libertarianism because it is every man for himself, dictated by your level of wealth. The will of the people vested in a working government defends the weak against the excesses and greed of the rich. Libertarianism does not solve this, it merely replaces a government not actually formed by the will of the people with those who have the most resources and have the asymmetrical bargaining power.
- wuliwong 8y ago>it merely replaces a government not actually formed by the will of the people I'm confused by this statement. What do you mean "not actually formed by the will of the people"?
- cellularmitosis 8y agoI'd imagine he's referring to the little ways in which our government and laws seem to end up going against the interests of the average consumer. Lobbyists orchestrating Congress to act against the interests of their constituents, etc. Or issues like the chairman of the FCC undoing net neutrality, when nearly every citizen is in favor of keeping it, etc. Increasingly it seems to be "of the will of the corporations", not the will of the people.
- sremani 8y agoFCC and other federal bureaucracy are by-product of Will of People .. centralize the power .. Federal government any way! To blame libertarians for FCC is like blaming John McCain for Vietnam war.
- IOT_Apprentice 8y agoThe follow up would be that the will of the people has been coopted by corporations and the 1%. They use their wealth to control the funding of politicians and bend them to their will. "Corporations are people", brings an imbalance of power.
- ausjke 8y agocan someone please summarize? a bit too long to read at the moment
- gpm 8y agoThe honest answer is no. It's information dense already. It also includes lots of the authors personal opinions that I don't want to misstate.
- ausjke 8y agobasically he tried to do free speech in a country where free speech is strictly forbidden, which led to all these, yes he had no choice but to leave.
- evmar 8y agoCan anyone comment on the risks of posting such an essay while still living in China? Is this considered safely within the lines, a calculated risk, or something else? (Or has he already left China before posting the essay?)
- lainga 8y agoTo be fair, his blog was never exactly positive on China, and (as he states in the article) he was very wary of crossing the fine line between moderate criticism and falling afoul of the CCP. Between the fact that he was forced out of his position, and that he says he's "grateful" not to have been detained, I imagine he feels safe enough to get a shot off as he leaves. I don't think the government would get rid of him with an ostensibly administrative dismissal, and then turn around and detain him on the back of this post, as he was about to leave the country for good; it would look heavy-handed. Or, as you say, he could already be gone... I don't know.
- hangonhn 8y agoI give him credit for even trying China. China is the opposite of libertarianism both culturally and politically. Even without the party, personal liberty and worth doesn't factor in much in China or anywhere where Confucianism took root. It's always in relations to others that you derive your worth. That aspect of my heritage has always sit poorly with me (then again I was raised in the US). I'm not saying one way is better than the other but for a libertarian to give it a try took some courage.
- lgvln 8y agoI would agree that China is probably the opposite of libertarian politically. Culturally, I would find it hard to agree. Most people don’t give a crap about others (in a liberating and selfish manner) unless it concerns them directly.
- hangonhn 8y agoOh that's a very interesting perspective. I didn't even think about that. Yes there is a sense of "mind your own business" in China and that may be a more recent development. What I was referring to is more along the lines of how you've valued and viewed by people you know -- one does not have inherent value simply because he is a human and therefore the idea of human rights and individual liberty/freedom are somewhat foreign concepts to China and perhaps East Asia.
- kenjackson 8y agoI never thought quite as broadly as the author, but what he says is consistent with one thing I observed -- driving and pedestrian behavior. In China drivers and pedestrians are both better and worse than those in the US. I found drivers and pedestrians both to be much more aware and had more agency about what they needed to to be safe. Whereas in the US we assume a lot more that the rules of the road are going to be followed, and they are. In China you shouldn't assume that a given rule of the road is going to be adhered to, especially if there is any indication that it might not be (if that makes sense). This results in the US looking a lot more ordered on the streets. But it also results in some situations in the US where it seems like people are brain dead. I personally prefer the US in this regard, but I was also raised in it.
- smilekzs 8y agoRaised in China here --- still largely prefer driving + walking on US roads.
- throwb187 8y agoI've lived in both and I definitely prefer walking on Chinese roads. Most US drivers, except for those in New York, are largely unaware of pedestrians, bikes, and motorcycles. I find it much more dangerous to ride a motorcycle in the US because so many drivers don't expect it and do things like turning right without looking behind them. However, I do generally prefer driving in the US. The only issue I have is with the police. I'm much more scared of getting pulled over by a cop in the US due to some minor infraction, e.g. having a broke tail light, than I am of Chinese cops.
- pouetpouet 8y agoThe world is not down to China and the US. How about walking on French or German roads? How about cycling on a Dutch or Danish road? People there are rule abiding, very much so compared to China, and at the same time respect pedestrian and cyclists. The problem in the US is the quasi universal car dependency.
- 8y ago
- muxator 8y ago> A common one is when someone is run over by a car and pedestrians just step over the body until a family member finds the body. The video goes viral, prompts a week of hand wringing, and then censors step in to talk about Confucianism and how the economy is growing. There is no innate value given to human life as precious.
- msie 8y agoAnd yet there is outrage in Chinese social media when that happens. So "not all Chinese"?
- adventured 8y agoI think that's certainly the case, China is a country of vast differences between people. To the extent China has seen arguably the fastest dash of economic development in history, imagine what the corresponding, linked cultural & educational development has looked like. In the span of several decades, half a billion people shifted from an almost zero traditional education environment in rural, very poor third-world style villages - to rapidly developing, modern, economically considerable, urban, very high density environments with intense competition and far higher education attainment. Then imagine how wild that must be as all of these different forces and cultures collide and meld in real time, and it's essentially a population group the size of the EU trying to make an epic adaptation leap in 20-30 years. I expect it produces at times a large gap between people in regards to their personal evolution.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoThis isn’t true: at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. The potential of its people was already there and all that was needed was a peaceful environment with an enabling government.
- GuiA 8y ago> at various periods during world history, China has been one of the richest and educated countries in the world. Do you have any further reading on this? It doesn't strike me as too crazy of a statement - but I'd be very interested in seeing how one would go about actually quantifying it.
- petermcneeley 8y agoContrast this: "I will use strong language about the authoritarian communist government but I do not want that in anyway to reflect upon the Chinese people." With these sentences: "There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the individual or person in China. People do not have innate value as people simply because they exist. This leads most directly to a lack of respect for the law/rules/norms. One thing I began to realize over time is, while not German, how law, rule, and norm abiding Americans are with minimal fear of enforcement. in my experience laws/rules/norms are simply ignored. Lying is utterly common, but telling the truth revolutionary. There was no value system. There was no exogenously held right or wrong, only whether you made money. With apologies to a bastardized Dostoevsky, with money as God, all is permissible. For instance, something as simple as standing in line in many places can devolve into a knife fight given the utter lack of restraint in cutting that is so common. A common one is when someone is run over by a car and pedestrians just step over the body until a family member finds the body."
- arcticfox 8y agoI interpreted his opinion as the government setting the people up to fail, as opposed to the other way around.
- strayamaaate 8y agoI think it’s fine, most Chinese people complain about these things too. Nobody likes a line-jumper, in any culture. What I think is a problem is to suggest the entire Chinese populous of being money-loving but without asking how that happened. Life is tough when you have over a billion people to feed, and no government support structures to lean on in times of need. It’s dog-eat-dog because it needs to be, not because the Chinese people like it. Regarding the not-stopping-to-help someone hit by a car; There’s pretty well known story about a bystander who tried to help, getting into deep trouble for doing so. I don’t have the link, but some creative Googling should surface the story.
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoThere is an aspect that if you help someone who is hurt, you are acknowledging responsibility for the trouble that caused it even if you had nothing to do with it (e.g. guilty of murder if you happen to find the body). Chinese police can be very lazy like that, but I think the first incidence of this happened in Taiwan in the 90s.
- SurrealSoul 8y agoVery dense and impactful, for what it's worth I have also been on the receiving end of 'the foreigner in the elevator' but often people are nice and just (extremely) curious when you introduce yourself in their language. It does get exhausting really quick however
- seanmcdirmid 8y agoYa. Eventually one just pretends they can’t speak mandarin even if they can.
- dhruvrrp 8y agoThe issues the author has about line cutting and openly gawking seemed kinda interesting. In my view line cutting happens because people have this view that their time is more valuable than anyone else's, and so they don't see it as breaking any 'rules' as such. And this isn't unique to China, you can see this in a lot of poorer south/south-east Asian countries. Kinda why driving is also a nightmare in these countries. Gawking as well is common in a lot of places which aren't as culturally diverse as say California. If a Chinese or white person visits India, then outside of a few areas in the big cities they'll see similar behavior. Heck I could see people staring at me when I was in Charlotte, NC a while back.
- abhgh 8y agoHa, that reminds me. I have a thing for trying out good cafes, and on my way to Berkeley, I decided to stop at one in Oakland. Till that point my ambit had been more or less limited to areas where s/w companies are + touristy spots. So, I never was the only Indian around. But here I was - and I got a lot of stares during my walk from a BART station to the cafe. Which was amusing and mildly uncomfortable.
- jwilbs 8y agoI find this comment odd. I spent many years in Oakland and saw plenty of Indians (a quick google search shows Oakland is 17% Asian). Not to mention there are at least three Indian restaurants within two blocks of 12th street/Oakland City Center BART.
- abhgh 8y agoI am not sure why you find this odd. This could be locality specific - I didn't tell you where exactly my walk was. Nor did I imply if I walked the same distance anywhere in Oakland - anywhere in all 78 sq mi in it - I would invite the same reactions. In fact I do believe its locality specific, because in my other visits, which were to some of the theatres, the Oracle arena etc, I did see Indians. Also, not that it matters to my point, your quick Google search was for the Asian population - the Indian population is much lesser - you made me curious, so I Googled. Apparently 3.95% of the Asian population of Oakland is Indian - which actually comes to < 1%.
- lewis500 8y agoRegarding the line-cutting/cheating he talks about. I like to distinguish between "culture" and something vaguer, which is what type of equilibrium someone is trapped in. I started to think this way when I lived in Argentina. Argentina is very corrupt, but just across the river is Uruguay...the least corrupt country in Latin America by some metrics. Argentines and Uruguayos are culturally quite similar (the relationship is analogous to that between the US and Canada), but one country is much less corrupt. I mused about this to my Argentine friend and he said "The difference is that in Argentine politics, if you're not corrupt you'll get destroyed." (This is kind of exaggerated but it gets the point across.) So while the cultures are similar, individuals in each country find themselves in different equilibria: if you're the only corrupt person in a group, you'll get caught and ostracized; if you're the only uncorrupt person, you'll get forced out (the same thing happens to police departments in the US). It is impossible for an individual to change the equilibrium. Likewise with standing in line: Chinese immigrants to America preserve much of their culture for a while but don't cut lines; if they did they would be called out for it, being among the few who do so. But if everyone around you is blatantly cutting, then maybe you'll do it, too.
- 99_00 8y agoYou should look into Richmond BC or Vancouver Canada. Lots of Chinese and lots of corruption associated with Chinese population, especially tax evasion, money laundering, immigration fraud, illegal business. The only line cutting however is when the fire department is giving away free road salt or there is a sale at the Coach outlet store.
- princetontiger 8y agoVery true. China is a pestilence.
- kafkaesque 8y agoNot just in BC. There are quite a few Chinese and Taiwanese who are also corrupt in Los Angeles and its suburbs (the San Gabriel Valley). This is not to say there aren't thousands and possibly millions of Chinese people who are good citizens. But I mention it because OP seems a little too confident in his belief, when there are are pretty massive examples of the contrary.
- cmplxconjugate 8y agoAs a speaker of mandarin (Chinese wife) and having lived in China for a year, I really resonate with this. One thing I try to explain to friends is the observation (and generalisation) of the tier of social behaviour. In short, if the person is a stranger you are total apathetic to them. If they are an acquaintance or friend you treat them kindly at face value. If they are family... you treat them with a disturbing blind loyalty.
- linkmotif 8y agoI really like this piece. So many good paragraphs. Especially the end, and specifically: > The United States has repeatedly failed and continues to fall short of its ideals but has shown a greater sense of self correction than almost any other. In China you cannot talk about most of history, while in the United States there are constant reminders about failures and how to apply those lessons.
- draw_down 8y agoI don't think I can agree with it. We completely ignore our biggest mistakes and failures, for example it's still not acceptable to admit that the Iraq war was a total disaster and our biggest foreign policy mistake in decades.
- thatfrenchguy 8y agoYeah, that really transpired during the Russian meddling debate when every media was reminding how the US interfered in everyone’s elections.
- num3ric 8y agoA comparison of the same order could be transposed to the USA and Germany.
- msie 8y agoI don't know why I have to say this but this doesn't apply to everyone in China: - he says nice things about his friends and coworkers - people line up - there is social media outrage in China when events (as he describes) happens
- guscost 8y ago> Almost like the wealthy who need therapy despite living materially comfortable lives, Americans are fighting with vitriolic rhetoric in seemingly unnecessary ways. The most accurate idea I’ve seen in years.
- rconti 8y agoIt strikes me as the opposite of a good idea, unless he's using it to justify why the rhetoric, while "seemingly unnecessary" is actually, in fact, necessary. I really see no reason to believe the materially comfortable would suffer from mental issues at a lower rate than those who are not materially comfortable. And, if anything, they have the resources to afford it and the luxury of time to take advantage of it.
- guscost 8y agoI get your point, but you have to acknowledge that there is a gap between "suffering from mental issues" and "treatment is necessary" even in wealthy societies like America and free-healthcare societies like Britain. The best emergency room in the world has a "triage officer" whose job is to determine who needs treatment, and who is merely suffering, at any given time. People with easy access to mental health care often think that they need treatment for whatever ails them. Similarly, people with the opportunity to worry about Big Problems and argue for whatever they believe (without consequence) often think that they need to have nasty, dehumanizing duels over temporary political phenomena that will be forgotten in a few years. Nobody should be discouraged from finding help for their mental issues (or standing up for their beliefs), but at the same time they should understand that it may be a luxury and not a necessity.
- rconti 8y agoOh I see the point, yes this makes sense to me. Obviously it's not a black-and-white world of "crippling mental problems" versus "no mental problems", and to plenty of folks, engaging in mental health care is closer to life optimization and perhaps a luxury rather than a necessity.
- peterwwillis 8y agoThe observations about the Chinese people here are racist, inaccurate, and quite frankly plainly incorrect as a whole. Just the observations about what he thinks Chinese people's values are, when compared to actual Confucianism, are pretty inflammatory and ridiculous. I think the flagging of the comment exemplifies how fearful people are of admitting to being a party to prejudice.
- throwaway37585 8y agoExplain which observations you think are racist, inaccurate, incorrect, inflammatory, and ridiculous. Don't just assert it and expect others to read your mind.
- peterwwillis 8y agoLiterally every single section that talks about the citizens that isn't about politics. It's a giant hit job against the Chinese people by someone who is clearly resentful of them. The only thing he says that's nice about them is a platitude.
- strayamaaate 8y agoNo they’re not, they are frighteningly accurate for the most part. There are two things that one should keep in mind to help one be less offended; 1) It’s not only the Chinese 2) It’s not all Chinese
- peterwwillis 8y agoYou could use that to defend literally any kind of racist or prejudicial generalization.
- woodandsteel 8y ago"There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the individual or person in China. People do not have innate value as people simply because they exist." I am imagining that is one reason that the Chinese government is so scared of Christianity, which in recent decades has won over a great many converts, since it teaches that all human beings are the sons and daughters of God, and so should be treated with dignity and compassion. Of course Christian societies have regularly violated this rule. But it has had a great influence, and it combined with ideas from Western philosophy to produce liberal democracy. And in fact Marxism, which is the official ideology of the Chinese government, has rather similar philosophical roots in Christianity and Western philosophy.
- taobility 8y agoAs a native Chinese, I want to say you are wrong. In our education from element school, we were educated as atheist, and actually I am proud of that. I don't believe God. And for Chinese Communist Party, they don't like any religion, as that the opposite of Marxism, which is core part of communism.
- neutraltones 8y agoThis is a fairly disorganized, highly-opinionated blog post--it would benefit most from broken down into several smaller topics (Chinese government's treatment of expatriates and isolationism, US-China relations or the current state of the US government, opinions on Chinese social culture as a whole). Since most of the comments here are commenting on the author's cultural opinions, I'll post a quote by Anthony Bourdain here. In the quote, Bourdain was talking about food, but it applies to culture as well, and even aligns with what the original poster said about China being more 'foreign than other countries': "The one thing I know for sure about China is, I will never know China. It’s too big, too old, too diverse, too deep. There’s simply not enough time." People in Beijing might gawk at a foreigner (I've seen it happen), and you could even stereotype people in Beijing as doing so, but I've found that to be much less common in Shanghai. And these two are prominent cities--are rural villagers more likely to act isolationist, and if so, why? Because of the Chinese government's own isolationist principles, and China's history? The author should have been exploring this aspect in a historical context rather than simply criticizing.
- vfulco2 8y agoAnd Bourdain spent what 2 weeks there?
- iliketosleep 8y agoIt's interesting that prior to Xi's leadership, you could have a conversation about almost anything in China, so long as you didn't attack the Party itself. Now, as the author points out, mere discussion of economy, business, and financial markets can put you at risk. What's especially ominous is the banning of Winnie the Pooh from media; when even harmless cartoon characters are see to be a threat to the party, you know you're walking on eggshells.
- duxup 8y agoIt seems like they went from pragmatism back to authoritarianism.
- iliketosleep 8y agoThey went from being pragmatic back to being overly ideological. History forever repeats itself, even more so in China where they are not allowed to discuss it openly & objectively.
- vfulco2 8y agoAnd the overreach goes in cycles until the latest one loses the mandate from heaven and revolution of one kind or another ensues.
- phyzome 8y agoWell, Winnie the Pooh is an "attack" on the Party, insofar as people were comparing Xi Jinping's appearance to him. :-)
- pascalxus 8y agoBeing in other countries like China and France really makes me appreciate how world class the customer service is in America. Here in the US, you can tell a waiter that your not happy with a dish and they'll immediately replace it with whatever you want. You can make substitutions, you can alter the way it's cooked (within reason), etc, and they still greet you with a smile and deliver excellent service. There are many parts of the world, where you just can't do that.
- peterwwillis 8y agoAmerican wait staff have to rely on tips rather than a living wage, which forces them to take unending amounts of crap, or else they can't pay the rent. American consumers can and do verbally (and sometimes physically) abuse wait staff, and if the staff don't sit there and take it with a smile, they get fired. I don't find this an endearing trait.
- pascalxus 8y agoGo to france and try going to a restaurant. You'll see what i mean, right away. It's a world of a difference.
- peterwwillis 8y agoIn France, if you want a waiter, you call them over. When they have time, they'll get to you. They leave you alone because most French people don't want to be bothered a lot while they're talking and eating, or reading the paper (a sentiment I can get down with). If something is screwed up with the food, they would first probably wonder why this American tourist thinks that the French chef screwed up the dish that their grandmother probably taught them how to cook. Then they'll listen to you, shrug, and take it back and tell the manager or the chef. One of them would decide what was appropriate. If you told them you just didn't enjoy the dish and you wanted another one, they may ask you why you ordered the first dish in the first place, and why you think you deserve a free dish. If you ask for substitutions, they'd probably tell you no, because most chefs don't want to deal with that and often the way dishes are made preclude substitutions, not to mention backing up other orders. And they'd be in the right. It's kind of stunning sometimes how privileged American consumers can act. A caveat to this is if you're in Paris; they can be really nice or really rude based on a number of factors. In a small town, French people are really friendly and helpful.
- strayamaaate 8y agoSince the line-cutting topic seems to be of interest, I thought I’d share some first hand experience. Having succumbed to the need for a Big Mac a handful of times during a decade long stint in China, I became accustomed to the devolution of queuing when it was peak time. I quickly found myself pushing in and cutting others off, to make sure my order was taken. This made me reflect on how quickly I adapted to the situation. I found that when push comes to shove, we seem to have a threshold which says “bugger it, I want my burger more than I care about being polite”. I guess this is obvious, but how easily I threw my supposed Western manners out the window was what surprised me. I think there’s a couple of observations that are interesting, which aren’t covered in the article; - People that tended to queue jump just hadn’t been told it wasn’t ok. If it wasn’t already complete anarchy, quite often another person in the queue would tell them off with a stern “get in line”, to which the offender would apologize and shuffle to the back of the line - In some places they have staff that “queue-manage”. Nobody cuts the queue or complains, they just wait for their turn patiently, albeit not usually quietly I believe China knows it has accrued some deep social issues to deal with, and that debt will need to be paid off slowly. I remember a few years back that TV and print adverts promoting “dynastic and elitist” culture were banned. I think that says a lot about the governments mindset. I hope the above gives a little more context to anyone who hasn’t had the privilege of finding themselves stuck in a fast-food restaurant in downtown Beijing during peak hour.
- lgvln 8y agoWell said. I think this describes the phenomenon perfectly. It’s not complete anarchy, everything goes sort of situation. There is a set of hidden rules that most people abide by. A contrast with a typical Western setting is it doesn’t tend to gravitate towards violence (in my experience). Whereas, a confrontation could easily lead to a violent situation in most Western countries.
- strayamaaate 8y agoThat’s a good point, which I should’ve mentioned as it goes hand in hand with the topic. Despite how intense some situations can get in China, I’ve rarely ever felt physically threatened. It’s culturally abnormal to resort to violence. Yes there’s a few nutjobs out there (sword-guy in Sanlitun), but on the whole it’s pretty incredible that such a big city, and country is relatively speaking, so peaceful.
- jessewmc 8y agoIn my mind occam's razor applies to the 'culture' of money over everything in China, if there is such a thing. I think theres a pretty simple explanation: Most Chinese people have parents or grandparents who remember Mao and the great famines, or worked on or still work on rice farms in the sort of abject poverty no westerner--even a homeless one--can understand. It's difficult to be exposed to this unless you live there for a while, preferably somewhere other than Beijing or Shanghai, and work with and interact with locals regularly. The reality and nearness of the abject poverty of hundreds of millions of your countrymen is a fear that is utterly foreign in the so-called western world, but is very real in China. It is what everyone works to escape, and then works to prevent for their descendants. I don't think TFA was particularly accusatory, but there was an undercurrent of judgement there that I think is unfair. If western culture was subject to that environment with such a large population I think we'd see very similar behaviour, understandably. I also think this partly explains the tolerance to the current communist party--they have made real strides in lifting the living standards of hundreds of millions of people, and compared to still-too-near family memories of what China has been through, a little authoritarianism is a small price to pay for that. I think China will need a long track record of prosperity before any real social or political change will happen.
- robotkdick 8y agoThe experiences the OP has had are priceless, and read something like a novel if someone like John Kennedy Toole had he written about living in China (comic in some respects, but also surreal). The Snow White episode in the elevator is delightful: the father having to explain to his daughter that being associated with Snow White is a good thing, and she being upset at being labeled. The world is shrinking and being stretched at the same time.
- chj 8y ago> the father having to explain to his daughter that being associated with Snow White is a good thing How can that be a bad thing? I honestly don't understand(I'm from China).
- basica 8y agoChildren like to blend in and not be noticed as different (adults too of course, but to a lesser degree than children). The label itself is inoffensive, she just didn't like the fact she wasn't seen as just another kid.
- lhl 8y agoMaybe you've never had the pleasure, or it's different in other cultures, but having experienced plenty of it first hand, it's incredibly off-putting when people point/stare/or talk about you, especially if they do so in front of your face because they think you can't understand their language.
- torgian 8y agoMeh. So long, have fun.
- ilamont 8y agoEven so [the western missionary] was stunned at how deeply and rigidly held the belief that making money was the entire meaning of life. There was no value system. Consider also how the national psyche and personal outlooks on the world have been impacted by a lifetime of propaganda celebrating Han-centric nationalism, expansionist foreign policy, and a self-appointed party leadership whose control and policies can never be seriously questioned.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago>There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the individual or person in China. People do not have innate value as people simply because they exist. Respect for the individual simply because they exist as opposed to being part of a larger group is mostly a recent West cultural thing. In most places, and throughout most of human history, what has given a person value is their relationship to the larger society.
- jbhatab 8y ago1. I wonder how much the longstanding Cultural Revolution has had an impact on their culture, it wasn't that long ago. While they were breaking down as a country, USA was united and placed on top from WW2. 2. Is there an "it's working" view of the government because they're experiencing explosive economic growth. There may be some resentment towards American corporations eating up the world and our government's active involvement in every country's affairs. I could see how the Chinese government pushing back against America enabling the rise of Alibaba, Didi, Baidu, etc making up for some undesirable policies. 3. I want to hear more perspective from the youth in the cities in China. 4. I thought this part was odd: "The tragedy of modern American foreign policy is the history of active ignorance and refusal to actively confront the Chinese norm or legal violations. The Trump administration is utterly incapable of defending the values and assembling the coalition that would respond to American leadership as they face even greater threats from China." Trump literally just started a trade war with China. Right or wrong, he is blatantly pushing back towards China economically because of their unfair practices. It might completely backfire and might not be praiseworthy 'values', but you can't say he's not actively confronting China.
- SlowRobotAhead 8y agoThe author's clear lack of having been in the USA for 9 years. He's getting all his USA info from the media and at best people who already agree with him. Whole thing really fell apart when he talked about USA politics imo.
- lgvln 8y agoWow. I do feel regrettable for what he and his family had to go through, to be uprooted like that after staying there for nine years. I hope he has had supportive friends while in the country. What’s admirable is how he reacted to the whole situation. He doesn’t seem bitter or prejudiced in that article. I think he touches on the many aspects of China that are not readily apparent to people who have not lived there. Most English people tend to view China through the lens of the typical English mainstream media perspective while also lacking in knowledge of their cultural and historical background.
- wonton2 8y agoI agree to most of the things the author said (except for America being the center of the world and a moral lighthouse for everyone of course). But what I think will get overlooked by most people is the beginning where he notes that the chinese he has met in his daily life are very nice people. Do not forget that they are the same as you. It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t realize how similar we all are. Probably every deeper concern you have had a chinese and russian and american person have also had. No they do not live worried lives where they think that if they break an arm they will be bankrupt. No they are not afraid every day of government agents knocking on their door to drag their father away. The risk of each one is larger in one country than the other. But day to day people think about the same things. Every country have their introverts and extroverts, engineering types and warm hearted caring types and the discussions that one does not exclude the other. Superficially chinese cut in line because if you dont cut you get cut and i am sure you would do the same if the situation was the same for you. Unless you are the quiet introverted type, which is also the case in China. Dont forget that this person talks about governments. You should dislike Xi for what he does to the chinese people, not for what effects you fear he may have on USA (the government, not the people).
- mistermann 8y ago> Do not forget that they are the same as you. How can you still hold this belief after reading articles like this? > It sounds obvious but I think most people don’t realize how similar we all are. That's more sensible. Indeed, if any person from country <x> was raised in country <y>, they are going to be generally like others born in country <y>, but only if they were raised there. This is what constitutes culture, and all groups of people on the planet do not all share the same culture, as the author pointed out.
- neolefty 8y ago> How can you still hold this belief after reading articles like this? I'll push back on this. Spending time in China helped me look at myself and break down what was universally human and what was learned culture. For example, the story about the missionary giving a talk at the local English Corner about "the meaning of life" > He said he knew what people would say having lived in China for sometime but even so was stunned at how deeply and rigidly held the belief that making money was the entire meaning of life. There was no value system. There was no exogenously held right or wrong, only whether you made money. Yes, people espouse that. Even to themselves. But spend some time with them and find out what makes them happy and sad, and what they want to make money for, and it's the same as a westerner (and I suspect the same as any mentally healthy human on the planet): having basic autonomy in your life, developing as a person, quality time with friends and family, helping each other, a chance to raise children peacefully and otherwise contribute to society. Those are the things people genuinely want. I think people universally find obsession with wealth to be unsatisfying, but it's sometimes only after a learning experience. They may try it for a while, but they realize it's a socialized value, not an intrinsic one. To overgeneralize, China as a whole is still at an earlier stage of learning about wealth than the US or Europe or Japan or Korea. But they are in the process of learning the lessons of wealth and will, I believe, get there faster than we did, simply because everything is changing faster there than it did here. Edit: And we in the West are not done learning either!
- singularity2001 8y ago>> I know the unspoken reason for my dismissal. … >> I felt blessed to be able to dive into Chinese data everyday exploring aspects that most in my position simply do not get to explore. He worked/acted as a spy? (Maybe unknowingly)
- singularity2001 8y ago"There is a complete and utter lack of respect for the individual or person in China." I found the same attitude towards Nature when I met Chinese breaking plants in a natural reserve. Not sure if it was representative.
- jason_slack 8y agoAs someone who spent months in China recently the elevator experience mentioned really hits home among other points. Nobody expected me to understand what they were saying and trying to hide picture taking etc. I just embraced it. If I saw someone sneaking a picture I would just ask them: 你想和我合影吗？你会记得看到一个外国白人。 If someone started talking about me in an elevator or street cart or anyplace I would say: 你想问我关于我的生活或国家的问题吗？
- singularity2001 8y ago"with money as God, all is permissible." Did they overcompensate or is it compatible with communist doctrine?
- MagnumOpus 8y agoIt is not compatible, but communist doctrine is not applied in life beyond parroting it in exams or at CCP functions.
- singularity2001 8y agoSo what do chinese people think and feel about "德 dé" (moral)?
- singularity2001 8y agoOff topic: "If there is one thing the world needs to do more it is laugh." I always pondered about 'humor' being discouraged on HN being a GOOD thing, because it saves real good humor from reddit-like automatisms.
- singularity2001 8y ago"However, equating Beijing to Washington in many of these specific [surveillance] issues is simply non-sensical authoritarian apologetics." Here is where you[1] are dead wrong. Collecting the data is the original sin. Once our profiles are created it is only a matter of time before they will get abused. Yes, by a (future) evil government. [1] (the author, probably the only one reading through those 100s of comments) "I always ask people where they are from." How about: "What do you DO?"
- throwaway37585 8y ago> you are dead wrong So you're equating Beijing to Washington?
- singularity2001 8y agoonly in specific [surveillance] issues
- throwaway37585 8y agoYou think Beijing and Washington are equal in terms of surveillance?
- singularity2001 8y agoI'd estimate that the US has more data on you but china has more live surveillance.
- thisisit 8y agoI don't know the author but I think it's very cynical to talk about issues in China and love for freedom, once they are no longer your employers. And this > In a way, I sympathize with Chairman Xi’s emphasis on rule of law because in my experience laws/rules/norms are simply ignored My understanding is that kids with strict parents are most liable to misbehave. And same applies to people. If you run a restricted system people will find other outlets to misbehave. So, I don't think Xi requires any sympathies for what is happening.
- tigen 8y agoAbout the line cutting thing, does that lead to fights? If someone cuts in front of another, do they mostly accept that, or is it like the big fish eat the little ones? Do most people still stay in a semblance of a queue or does it just evolve into a pushing/shoving throng?