19 ms·

Twitch streamers who spend years broadcasting to no one

456 points by ss2003 8y ago

moretai 8y ago
Are these not people who are just deluding themselves that they are doing it out of love, when all they want to do is be famous?
- Twisol 8y ago
  I can only speak for myself, but as someone who streams off and on (mostly off, since I've got other things going on right now that I need to focus on), I have no particular desire to be famous. I'd rather not be famous. But it's really enjoyable to be able to share my experiences with other people. For a lot of games (most?), there's a significant amount of organic content that comes out of you, a specific person, going through a game's content and seeing it for the first time (or the second, or third, ... for games that have that kind of replay value). Having even one other person engaged with your journey, and reacting alongside you -- that's fun. It's not the same as having friends over. You play with your friends. They're having their own experience, and you're having yours. Streamers get to have other people share that experience. (To `moretai's downvoters: Yes, we can read their comment as an insensitive, unimaginative put-down of this group of people. But why should we? I think there's an interesting point to be discussed here, and I'm more than willing to read `moretai's comment as a genuine question.)
  - moretai 8y ago
    It was a genuine question. I understand where you are coming from. But I wonder how far you have rationalized away from the point that it is you that are the source of the fun, and the other people are in for the ride. Your ride. You are not playing with these people. These people are watching YOU.
    - Twisol 8y ago
      I think I made that point clear in my comment. As I said, it's a very different experience from playing with friends.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  Depends. I’d say for example that the primitive technology channel does it out of love. So there are people like that, even if the wast majority does it because let’s be honest a career in video gaming sounds great. But the thing is those are also the least likely to attract viewers. Top spots nowadays are claimed by sponsored players anyway and making it as an amateur is nightmarish difficult. Fame grows exponentially because once a talent emerges companies are quick to sign it up and after that they provide most of the promotion for their talent to grow.
  - wilsonnb2 8y ago
    The primitive technology guy doesn't stream, though, as far as I know. He just makes videos.
  - moretai 8y ago
    But there is a way for the primitive technology channel to be monetized. For him to gain recognition, as opposed to him just building his wooden houses in isolation. Without anyone knowing. It is not as if he's unaware of people making millions off of youtube(or being famous, whatever), or the internet. We can't separate youtube no matter how "primitive" the action being filmed is. He may be doing it out of pure love, but if it was true love, why does he feel the need to film it? To help others? Why do any of us need to know how to do this, and how does a video help? He most likely got good at building a log house from building hundreds of shitty log houses from before.
ryandrake 8y ago
> Despite the sometimes psychologically taxing nature of trying to get noticed on Twitch, some continue to persevere despite the cold indictment of the zero. Maybe I’m advocating a bit of a dark pattern here, but couldn’t Twitch keep streamers engaged by seeding streams with a few fake AI bots as viewers? This seems like it might be a little of the Empty Restaurant Effect. People hesitate to go into a restaurant if there’s nobody else eating there. So provide a few fake diners.
- smallnamespace 8y ago
  Eventually people in the community will notice that 'few' === zero, so this becomes essentially an information tax on new Twitch viewers. Plus, you know, they'd be lying to people.
- scrooched_moose 8y ago
  I'm not very familiar with Twitch, but isn't the community interaction (text/voice chat?) a large component of it? I'd imagine these streamers would be very interested in chatting with the 1 or 2 people who stopped by their stream. If the bots can't respond they'd be found on pretty quick, and making bots who can pass some sort of "video game specific Turing test" is a major endeavor. Only getting instantly recognizable fake viewers would as demoralizing as no viewers.
  - Merem 8y ago
    Yes and no. The thing is, the majority of the viewers usually doesn't write to the streamer. They simply watch the stream, nothing more. So having five real viewers but no one is writing anything (or answering) is definitely possible. Still, interacting with viewers is where it gets interesting and it is live-streaming after all, so that's actually the point (otherwise you could just create a video and upload it somewhere).
    - fabatka 8y ago
      I would think that the ratio of "interactive" viewers is higher for streams with less viewers (because of the different atmosphere, non-professional streamers being able to interact more personally with the audience...).
crusso 8y ago
Normally, when I do play videogames, it's a private sort of thing between myself and my game system. I just recently ran across some twitch channels via youtube because I was looking for some help with some Dark Souls III content. It's like a whole different universe with people who live and breath these games every waking moment. I found it very interesting to see that it's a whole way of life with this many people. Now I'm tempted to watch some of these twitch broadcasters even though I'm not interested in the games that they're playing.
- local_yokel 8y ago
  Come watch some DS3 speedruns and travel even further down the rabbit hole of people who know everything about the game to an absolutely obsessive degree and are insanely good at playing it. It's not for everyone mind you, but I find it hugely entertaining if you take the time to appreciate it.
rch 8y ago
Isn't this similar to posting on SoundCloud with no specific intent or expectation? Publishing content is an easy way to make it available on a bunch of devices, so if you're not concerned with outcomes then what's the difference? Need to read the article I guess. Edit: OK, some people expect to attract a following and are having trouble: > attracts over two million broadcasters every month ... Discoverability is an issue No kidding.
coding123 8y ago
Ok, post your streams and I'll watch a few minutes.
wheelie_boy 8y ago
In the far future when food, shelter, and other necessities are basically free, attention will be the last valuable commodity. There will always be a scarcity of attention.
- Tade0 8y ago
  Makes one imagine a very different Star Trek universe.
  - nostrademons 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Callister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Callister
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  Maybe we can make AI who can be good consumers.
- Applejinx 8y ago
  This is true, but we have a lot of work to do before we have the first part sorted. Right now we're looking at a scenario where attention's becoming a marketable commodity, but the penalty for failing to maximize it is starvation and ruin, because food and shelter are far from being a given.
minimaxir 8y ago
Per Twitch's stream analytics, on one of my data science programming streams on Twitch the majority of my viewers came from the Explore page, under the relatively-less-popular Programming category. I wonder if there's a bit of game theory in play where it's impossible to be discovered when playing a megapopular game like Overwatch/Fortnite, and it's more advantageous to play relatively more obscure games. It wouldn't be the first time working the long-tail has been effective.
- nlowell 8y ago
  At least for streamers who are already somewhat established, the metagame is actually to move to whichever game is most popular with viewers.
  - minimaxir 8y ago
    That's also true. I wonder what the establishment inflection point is?
    - Macha 8y ago
      Probably getting into the top two rows with your own fanbase so you can attract organic traffic just clicking $game.
- satsuma 8y ago
  an interesting side effect of something like that is the hop-ons during the games done quick streams -- often times you'll see streamers switch games to whatever's being played on stream in the hopes someone will... misclick, or get bored and check out the other streams in the game or something. you also see it when a large streamer is playing a relatively unknown game (sodapoppin used to have a semi-weekly stream where he played games subscribers recommended, usually bargain bin or free to play shovelware)
- lev99 8y ago
  > I wonder if there's a bit of game theory in play where it's impossible to be discovered when playing a megapopular game like Overwatch/Fortnite, and it's more advantageous to play relatively more obscure games. I do not think most twitch streamers are trying to be professionals. I think most streamers are just trying to add more fun into their game time. In game theory everyone's main objective is the same, in this case measured in either revenue or viewers. In the twitch world most streamers are trying to maximize fun instead of viewers or revenue. (Disclosure: I stream relatively obscure games, and know many other streamers in both megapopular and obscure games.)
satsuma 8y ago
every year i participate in the extra life streamathon fundraiser. i usually get a few viewers here and there but for the most part it's just me the whole time. the concept of streaming for nobody is a little disheartening, especially if you're narrating to yourself, but when people come in and i interact for a few minutes it's a lot of fun. i'm looking forward to it next year for sure.
- eropple 8y ago
  I run a decent-sized Extra Life event (not just me, but friends and usually on-location--one of my sidelines is live video production). It helps to do it with other people. Grab friends, find a couch. If you're having fun live, you'll retain the people who do bounce by. Our first year we raised $3500, our second $6500. We didn't really try that hard--just a little, and I mean a little, marketing (and some Boston-local guests, but those were fairly small bumps in viewership). Last time around we had a minimum of five viewers who were not us/our program feed/etc. even at like 4AM because we kept turning the crank with Twitter, Facebook, etc.
pjc50 8y ago
I can't help but wonder why people in this position don't give up earlier. It sounds like you need quite a bit of the right sort of self-promotion to get off the ground floor. Only once you've got enough of an audience will word-of-mouth start working for you.
- Siecje 8y ago
  You are playing video games anyways, why not hit "Start Streaming" and if something really cool happens you can highlight it and download it. This only works if you have a good Internet connection.
  - steveklabnik 8y ago
    I'm fairly new to Twitch, and I do this. It didn't hit me until I had decided to take a break and play off-stream, and then something really cool happened, and it made me kinda sad that I didn't have a record of it. I would have had I been streaming...
- icebraining 8y ago
  Seems similar to the stereotypical aspiring Hollywood actor/actress. I wonder if Lynch will ever do a film about an aspiring streamer.
- eropple 8y ago
  Speaking just for myself: my girlfriend and I and maybe a friend or two just stream video games because it's fun to play them. Friends usually pop in and shoot the shit with us in chat, but it's usually three or four people max. It helps that one of my sidelines is live video production, so our production quality is usually pretty good and streaming also makes me better for when I have to roll out somewhere and do a show, but still--it's just fun.
metalliqaz 8y ago
What I don't understand about Twitch is how anyone has time to consume this content. When it comes to sitting on your butt and watching something, the traditional TV show is moving to an on-demand model. Twitch is a step in the other direction, where if you faithfully consume content from any Twitch channel, you have to sit down and watch for hours every night when the streamer is online. Who does that? I imagine it's mostly students and single young professionals.
- qwerty9876 8y ago
  It makes sense if the player is REALLY good at the game, ie. in the top 0.1% globally or similar. It serves as a learning experience. You will learn much faster by watching a good player compared to grinding the game and slowly discovering the same mechanics yourself. You probably wouldn't watch some random kids stream of them playing football in their backyard. Now imagine Messi himself doing exactly that and also commenting it live, explaining all his tricks and his reasoning for every move he makes on the field. I bet you would be much more interested.
- olliej 8y ago
  Streams are stored so you can watch after the fact, in which case it’s basically TV. There’s no requirement that you only watch while they’re online.
- invalidusernam3 8y ago
  I guess people treat it like sport. Most people wouldn't think it strange for someone to watch a 90 minute football match
  - elif 8y ago
    or in the case of american football fans, watch 3 hours and 4 minutes of ads and commentary around 11 minutes of plays.
- natural219 8y ago
  replace "watching TV" with "hanging out with your friends" and maybe it makes more sense
jcfrei 8y ago
Very interesting article. I have nothing substantial to add I just want to point out how "cyberpunky" the lives of some people have become. Twenty years ago this would have fit right into the storyline of a dystopian cyberpunk novel about poor streamers who spend all day in front of a computer screen trying to become the most popular "gamer in the online gaming community".
- bumholio 8y ago
  It's a story as old as the world: trying to get noticed while doing essentially the same thing as the successful kids, but lacking that essential element of luck or genetics, that last second on the chronometer, that "in" preexisting social circle. It's the life of all those trying to enter into high risk, highly coveted careers that afford celebrity: authorship, sports, politics, music or film. The field might be changing but the game remains the same: humans mostly value what other humans happen to value, the other 99.99% comparable but unknown products are simply discarded.
  - WilliamEdward 8y ago
    The problem is trying to do the exact same thing as someone else. There has never been a business or method of making money in the history of capitalism that has survived by being an exact copy of another business or method. Even businesses with the same model as a bigger one, eg: small vs large car repair businesses, are able to function by having a different pricing point, location, etc. No one seems to understand that this applies to your job too. You're never going to be as successful as someone else by doing the exact same thing as them, because they got there first. Find your niche.
    - ForRealsies 8y ago
      I agree, big fan of Creatives finding their niche. People in general have a tendency to half-ass everything. Find a niche, find the dedicated userbase that is so starving for content that they consume the aforementioned half-assed work happily. Then serve them up a Filet Mignon and blow their minds.
socrates1998 8y ago
Most people are not interesting enough to watch play a video game. Which means, most people should NOT be doing this. Or at least doing it with the expectation that people will watch them. You have to be something that sets you apart. Super good, super funny, or entertaining. Just playing a game and making dick jokes isn't interesting or funny.
- widgitybear 8y ago
  I think you're underestimating the power of good dick... jokes.
com2kid 8y ago
I am a regular of a low viewer count stream, choaslegionkaeru, who is pretty good and talkative. He rarely gets past 10 streamers, and his style isn't for everyone and I don't think he'll ever be a massive success, but I enjoy watching and interacting with him. I've tuned into other low viewer streams, and a lot of them are just bad. The gameplay is bad, and the streamer isn't entertaining. A successful streamer needs one or the other, either be one of the top in the world for the game you are playing, or be super entertaining to listen to. For the later, the game itself is more of a set piece around a comedy bit.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  This sounds like the twitter Financial Independence blogging community. People with 0 new advice, rehashing the same old credit card rewards and budgeting advice. Its so terrible that there are people claiming 'frugal ways to eat' and claim 50$/week per person for food is frugal. A single google search would tell you that under 30$/week is a good goal. This drives me crazy because we are eating for 20$/week and actually put hundreds of hours into studying this. In the end, my website gets hundreds of viewers a day, their blogs arent ranked on alexa.
  - xenihn 8y ago
    What's your website?
    - mkirklions 8y ago
      http://efficiencyiseverything.com/ http://efficiencyiseverything.com/
  - 0xffff2 8y ago
    This is tangential, but what's a good starting point for "frugal ways to eat"? I'm not even remotely interested in getting down to $30/week, but my current budget is "not to exceed" $30/day, and I probably average around $20/day, and I generally cook at least one meal per day at home. Even in a week where I only at food cooked at home I can't imagine getting under $70/week. I'm curious what I would have to give up to get to $50, much less $30.
mathnmusic 8y ago
It would be great to have more programmers streaming their open-source work on Twitch. There's so much informal knowledge out there which can be learned by just watching experts at work.
- cuckcuckspruce 8y ago
  I've toyed with having a "Watch me Linux" stream where chat shouts out things they want to know about Linux and I show them / help people with their Linux problems.
  - vultour 8y ago
    I'd like to do some infrastructure streams where I play around with things like my Kubernetes cluster, unfortunately it seems like a pretty bad idea to livestream configuration of something that is connected to the internet.
    - vkou 8y ago
      If you're lucky, you'll probably learn a few lessons on security really quickly.
    - cuckcuckspruce 8y ago
      I was going to set up a VirtualBox virtual network disconnected from the Internet to do this - perhaps only allowing HTTPS to a Debian/Ubuntu mirror if I need to install packages. You could do something similar for your Kubernetes cluster. I was also considering a cheap, pay-by-the hour VPS that I could just destroy after the stream.
olliej 8y ago
How many of these streamers are just “I enjoy this game” and stream for the hell of it? Surely a bunch of the people with zero/few followers just don’t care?
- adrr 8y ago
  Its a learning experience for them as well. They'll get better at public performance much like practising a speech alone at your house.
SurrealSoul 8y ago
I personally know Markipler (youtube, 23M+) as well as follow some other people here and there. There is a youtuber; BloominBanana I subbed around the same time I subbed to Markipler 2010ish, they both do (did?) the same horror gameplay except Bloomin' has about 12 subs on youtube. Mark as I knew him was the king of 'going out there' he was never afraid of marketing, publicity stunts and was honestly humble to his huge user base where Bloomin' despised marketing and wanted to grow "organically". Growing organically isn't possible. You need to do something, you need to bot and break rules on twitch, you need to ask for publicity, you need to make friends with other streamers. Playing a game and being funny doesn't cut it anymore
- drawnwren 8y ago
  This applies to every form of attention driven media that I'm aware of. From your start-up to your new Instagram, if you want attention -- you need to hustle.
- leviathant 8y ago
  Yeah. Speaking as someone who ran a rather large fansite about NIN in the 2000s (the entity now basically exists as a Twitter account), you really cannot just "grow organically" on today's internet. I like to tell people I have a marketing allergy. Self-promotion feels gross. The "if you build it, they will come" mantra from Field of Dreams is not applicable to a world where so much more content is being created than can possibly be consumed. But I realize that if I want something that I'm doing to gain any traction at all, I have to get other people talking about it, and that there are pretty well established ways of making that happen. When the internet was a smaller space occupied primarily by nerdy types, you could make something interesting and by the nature of the medium, a lot of people found it. You thought you really hit it big if you made Slashdot, but getting featured on television took it to a whole different level. (For example: The Dancing Baby) You didn't need to have a face or a personality - your content actually could speak for itself. But even back then, taking those extra steps usually didn't hurt, either. Now, the internet is full of professionals of all stripes, and that means you're fighting for attention against people or entities who have a budget for marketing and PR. I can take the most beautiful photos in the world and put them on Instagram, but if I'm not actively marketing that account, no one will ever see them. Meanwhile, some dope with a fresh set of credit cards rents a Lamborghini for a photo shoot, buys batches of followers, and that will grow a following, and maybe he'll get a free night at a posh hotel out of it. Maybe Bloomin' just does it for the love of it. Maybe Markipler has been able to quit their job and make YouTube their profession. I bet both of them wish they had aspects of the other's experiences. As much exposure as I got to being a small-beans niche internet 'celebrity' (like, on the level of local weatherman), I wouldn't wish fame on my worst enemy.
memelord69 8y ago
there are hundreds of these dudes. I have one followed that I see streaming all the time with 1 viewer which is probably himself. He’s on social aid or something in Danemark.
apeace 8y ago
I too have met kids who say they want to be a Youtuber or Twitch streamer when they grow up. It makes me sad. I love watching Twitch, and watch 5-7 gamers regularly (almost every night). From what I can tell, most of them: - Are in their mid-20's to early 30's. - Live with their parents. - Make just enough from Youtube/Twitch/Patreon/merch to fund their gaming rigs, buy new games, buy their own food, and maybe pay for an upgraded internet connection. These are people who in some cases have hundreds of thousands of followers on Youtube and each Twitch stream attracts over two thousand viewers. It's not a good way to make a living. I've asked several of them if they make a full-time living (via Twitch chat), and they've acknowledged the question, but didn't seem to want to really answer it. A couple of them even make a joke out of it every time their sibling starts torrenting and it slows down their network connection. If I ever have a kid, I'll support their dream of becoming one of these people. And I'll also tell them they're not living in my house past the age of 18. Figure out a way to make money while doing what you love.
- com2kid 8y ago
  > and each Twitch stream attracts over two thousand viewers. It's not a good way to make a living. To contrast with that, I know twitch streamers whose channel averages out at around 300 viewers a time, and who make a very comfortable living. Having a properly run channel that encourages donations, cash and bits, is a huge part of it. I've seen streamers who pull an easy $200 a day in donations. Add in 500 or so subs, and it isn't too hard to break 6k a month. Not enough to live in the Bay Area, but a really nice salary in most of the country.
  - izzydata 8y ago
    Trying to win the lottery is not a good life goal.
    - welly 8y ago
      Is aspiring to being a top Twitch streamer any different than those aspiring to be a top musician, artist or actor? You'd have to be fantastic at your particular game or whatever they stream on Twitch (I know absolutely nothing about this platform) and great at self promotion. Not unlike wanting to be a rock star or movie star. I fail to see how it's any more like a lottery win than being in other forms of media, other than it's a very new platform (in the grand scheme of things). It wouldn't be for me but I'm sure plenty of people are making plenty of money and Twitch has its own Justin Bieber/Miley Cyrus (or whoever is the pop star of choice today. Yeah, I'm getting old).
draw_down 8y ago
The streams I have watched so far are more like extemporaneous comedy shows, with the game as either background noise, or providing something for the hosts to riff on. I’m sure that for many the game is the actual point, but for me if the hosts aren’t entertaining personalities in themselves I wouldn’t be interested in watching just for the game.
izzydata 8y ago
The way people use Twitch makes little sense to me. It might have to do with some age gap, but it doesn't seem like 10-15 years should really make this big of a disconnect. When I think of gaming it is strictly about playing for fun and engaging with friends in a kind of hanging out in a living room together way. Maybe that is how all twitch channels start off, but once you hit some threshold where the streamer can no longer engage with the audience in any personable way and it becomes more of a job it is no longer appealing to me. It is even as far as off-putting to where I'd avoid it and those kinds of communities. I occasionally stream to 0-3 people for the fun of it and to talk to people as if we were in a room together as that is more what gaming is to me. It seems that I'm in the very small minority these days though.
- munificent 8y ago
  > it is strictly about playing for fun and engaging with friends in a kind of hanging out in a living room together way. For some, Twitch is to playing games as talk shows are to conversation with friends. It gives people a fraction of the mental reward of social interaction without any of the effort or risk of actual social interaction. It's like a junk food snack for the social center of your brain. I definitely see the appeal and find myself getting sucked into that way of satisfying my need for human contact sometimes, but it ultimately always leaves me unsatisfied in the long run. For others, I think Twitch is just watching a TV show that happens to be a game. They just want to passively experience the narrative of the game without the effort of playing. Or perhaps they want the meta-narrative of watching the player interact with the game.
  - izzydata 8y ago
    Playing a game is already an effortless activity that is hard to believe people are even unwilling to do that. I can maybe understand if you couldn't afford it or didn't want to afford it, but there are countless recordings of any video game on youtube without commentary.
quantumwoke 8y ago
This article misunderstands or at least downplays the motivations of most of the smaller streamers on Twitch. On HN a good analogy would be the startup scene, where plenty of startups are made out of passion and a desire to solve a need in the community. Streamers are like these small startups, a lot of them set out to make money but many are content with just the experience, similar to a side project. I often browse small 1-4 viewer streams just to see what's happening and you can sometimes find interesting and unique people who are just there for the fun of it.
bdz 8y ago
Myself I stream to archive my gameplay. It's just good to look back some moments and some interactions later so if I record it then why not broadcast it too? I guess I fall in the same situation because I only have 1-2 viewers.
- JeremyBanks 8y ago
  If you're streaming as archiving (which I also do), YouTube is simpler since it automatically keeps all of your VODs without you needing to explicitly save each one.
nickjj 8y ago
You could replace this title with "Programmers who spend years creating a SAAS app that no one uses" and it would be the same article. All of these streamers who are bothered by not having an audience seem to have started for the wrong reasons. If all they care about are subscribers and viewers, then you're going to get really burnt out when that doesn't happen. Most of the popular streamers who I've come across do it because they enjoy it. The same can be said for the people who create successful SAAS apps. It's a mix of enjoying what they do, combined with making something that no one else has yet. It's not to get rich quick.
- Shivetya 8y ago
  It would be even simpler to replace it with "Bloggers who have no audience". There are countless blogs out there and more everyday and few if any ever gain traction. However we must see it also from the small business perspective. How many start a business versus how many succeed? I remember when coffee shops, cupcake shops, and more, were the fad, and they vanish with regularity.
  - nickjj 8y ago
    Yes for sure, right after I posted that reply I thought about blogging too. It definitely is the same story. It took me almost a year of regular blogging before I got some type of readership on my site, and even today, 3 years later, I wouldn't consider it popular. My intent was never to get make money on the site. It was to create documentation for myself (and anyone else who wants to follow along).
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    I have a website that broke past the 'no-one cares' blogging stage. The most important thing was being unique with quality. While other people parrot the best credit card rewards, we did serious research into finding the best Calories Per Dollar, Protein Per Dollar, Vitamin A per dollar, etc... But like the other person mentioned, I dont like shoving it in people's faces. I'm finally at the point that I get hundreds of googles a day and Ive meet people IRL that have been on my website. The biggest deal is to provide value that no one else is. Most people are wayy to lazy. They would rather spend 4 hours on a blog post instead of 20.
kawfey 8y ago
To anyone wondering why people spend time watching people play video games: billions of people spend time watching people play sports.
- peterwwillis 8y ago
  I don't get those people either.
coldtea 8y ago
>“It’s kind of exhausting playing to an empty room day in and day out with no results,” one Redditor wrote on a now-deleted thread on r/Twitch. Maybe you should play for the game, like gamers did since the dawn of ...well, Space Invaders and Pacman, and not for the audience.
rydogg 8y ago
rocket league is more entertaining to watch than any other sport
georgeecollins 8y ago
Isn't it strange to think that on one hand we worry that people are spying on us, on the other hand we are kind of desperate for an audience?
vfc1 8y ago
Why not blog tips and tricks about the game, or create Youtube How To videos to build an audience in the first place? The best way to create an audience out of nothing is still by far a blog.
thepumpkin1979 8y ago
I can relate to this, two weeks ago I started streaming from my Xbox and I've been enjoying 1-2 viewers at the time, sometimes 4 when I post the link to Facebook. To me 1-2 viewers is a lot, of course I play a game no one is playing: Battlefield Hardline. The twitch channel for Battlefield Hardline has 3 streamers tops on weekends and I happen to be one of them. I bet I'd be getting zero viewers if I was playing Fortnite.
preparedzebra 8y ago
Sometimes they make a big break though, and they would've been gaming anyways. Seems like risk adjusted reward is extremely favorable.
hartator 8y ago
I don't see the issue with that. We won't complain when our kids try to make a movie no one will really see, how is this creative process different?
crcl 8y ago
Nipl
glitcher 8y ago
> "According to people who have gone through it, lacking an audience is one of the most demoralizing things you can experience online." Um, what about bullying, doxxing, hacking, identify theft, etc?
- Nannooskeeska 8y ago
  I'd assume that the people who are getting zero viewers aren't generally the same people getting bullied, doxxed, hacked, identity-thefted, and so on.
Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
So many kids these days want to be Twitch streamers. I think it's the gamer version of wanting to grow up to be a NFL/NBA/MLB/etc. player.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- WilliamEdward 8y ago
  They have e-sports you know. The gamer version of wanting to grow up to be a pro athlete would literally be becoming a pro e-sports athlete in dota or something.
pnathan 8y ago
Reminds me of IRC channels, except located around a nexus of a specific micro-celebrity.
calgoo 8y ago
I was working from home for about 1.5 years. My daily contact was a morning phone call with the others on the team. Having a twitch stream open for 8+ hours in the background works really well for me as its more like having a radio on then a TV. Its not that you are sitting there watching every thing that the streamer is doing. You are more listening and glancing at it once in a while. A second aspect that i really enjoy in relation to twitch streams is the chat community and the interaction you can have live with the streamer. Its basically a IRC chat channel that the streamer is the owner of. So even when the stream is offline, you can hang around chatting with friends that you make online. It really remind me of my old mIRC days. Its all about finding a community that you enjoy, not all stream chats are the same. Some can be quite toxic but most streamers have Mods that ban people quickly for hate speech etc. There are also people that are coding on twitch these days, and i really enjoy having one of those streams open while coding myself. Whenever i get stuck on something, or am thinking about an issue / design I like watching what the streamer is coding for a few min. It tends to help me work out the problems quicker and the designs are normally better thought out.
ghuntley 8y ago
Twitch isn't just about playing games. There's a growing community of people like myself who use the platform to teach people how to write software. In my case as an opensource maintainer I use it as a way to break down opensource and introduce people to what the role entails. Follow me at https://twitch.tv/geoffreyhuntley https://twitch.tv/geoffreyhuntley and https://youtube.com/c/geoffreyhuntley https://youtube.com/c/geoffreyhuntley and https://twitter.com/geoffreyhuntley https://twitter.com/geoffreyhuntley
- Ologn 8y ago
  Yes. There is a contest that exists called "Ludum Dare" where a theme is announced, and within 2-3 days people have to design a video game fitting that theme. One person who took up the challenge was Minecraft creator Markus "Notch" Persson ( https://www.twitch.tv/videos/38122415 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/38122415 ). You see him coding for 11 hours or so, and at some points (like in the beginning) he talks about what his gameplan for coding the project are. Throughout you see a screen share of him coding, or drawing a tile map, or the like. It's an interesting thing if you want to see how a very successful game programmer that had to put a finished game together within 2-3 days would go about it.
rossdavidh 8y ago
So, I'm just going to say this, even though probably everyone already knows it: there are way, way more people looking to make a living off of producing content (Youtube, Twitch, etc.) for the internet, than there are people thinking, "If only there were more content on the Internet, I would pay some money or put up with some ads for that." There's nothing wrong with putting it out there if you want to, but expecting any kind of financial reward or other validation from the size of your audience seems like injecting yourself into a pretty vicious zero-sum game.
- Retric 8y ago
  I suspect their are far more viewers than people making content. The issue is 1 or even 10 viewers is no where near enough to support a content creator.
  - rubicon33 8y ago
    I find it fascinating that the distribution of resources is almost always NON-LINEAR. Take capital wealth. Money. That is a heavily non-linear distribution. Twitch is no different. If you use viewers as a proxy for wealth, it's fascinating that even that proxy behaves in a non-linear way. I happen to have heard some interesting behavioral theories about why resources distribute in that manner. I'm always curious about what other people think.
    - rossdavidh 8y ago
      I agree that the "natural" result will always be something along the lines of a Pareto distribution. That's bad news for my libertarian instincts, because I think it means that, in the absence of any mechanism to (partially) flatten this distribution back out, we inevitably see power accumulate more and more in the hands of fewer and fewer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution
mgr86 8y ago
I'll share my personal use of twitch streams. I really enjoy AOE2. The game might be nearing its second decade, but its very enjoyable for me to watch personally. I will use youtube-dl to grab past broadcasts and play the games back at 1.5x to 2x speed. I can easily skip through parts I find uninteresting. I'll generally watch one or two games per day, but my time commitment is under 30mins.
- therealdrag0 8y ago
  Are they playing against other humans? I got AOE2 HD a couple months ago and it's been my go-to game this summer. But I haven't thought of looking on twitch or for multiplayer online.
  - mgr86 8y ago
    Yes, there is quite the competitive scene. And many streamers on twitch. However, most of the competitive games are played on Voobly. There are guides out there about playing AOE2HD on Voobly. There is a 60k tournament underway. Tiny compared to other games, but respectable considering the age of this game. The game's audience is mainly international. Large player bases in china, Vietnam, EU, and south america. The community can mainly be found at aoezone.net. There is a smaller community also on reddit.com/r/aoe2
KirinDave 8y ago
Having spent literally hundreds of hours producing video game content for youtube and twitch, I can say this: It's an incredibly sad, discouraging experience even if you get traction (and I got some traction). It's also utterly hollow: your entire existence is as a wrapper around the content folks actually want to see. The most successful streamers develop their own brand, but these people are the 0.5%, the Felixs and the _sips and the ZachScotts. They're the exception, and even they have specific genres and subjects that if they venture into they risk losing a massive chunk of their audience. Once I realized this, I had to stop trying to do it professionally. I'd rather go back to doing software product work. At least I feel like a real person with real impact in this field, as opposed to one of a billion interchangeable wrappers around other people's mostly interchangeable content. But you can of course go see my youtube channel and watch my old minecraft content if you want. Some of the stuff around the middle of my cycle (i.e., D&S play Minecraft, Minecraft the Hard Way, Sunless Minecraft) was pretty solid for the genre.
- y2bd 8y ago
  Similar boat of making Minecraft videos in the past (2011-2014). It was mostly just my friend and I playing through various Minecraft adventure/puzzle maps. We got a couple dozen to a hundred followers through luck/timing (playing new maps that later become popular) but didn't get too far. Then one day my friend on a whim did a skit that ended up doing very well (it got featured on wired.com and even posted on HN [1]). We got a lot of attention from this skit (and one or two others), but this really wasn't content we wanted to dedicate ourselves towards. It was extremely disheartening seeing the wide disparity between videos we wanted to make and videos that got views--we loved to think that people enjoyed watch us, but it was really clear that most people just wanted to see more of those two/three videos. I don't think I regret the time spent though. Doing LPs definitely strengthened my ability to explain what I'm doing as I'm doing it, a skill I use all the time as a software dev (and one I definitely see others lacking). It also gave me a ton of experience with video editing, which while not as useful professionally is a lot of fun and I think a useful skill to have in your pocket. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3543039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3543039
  - 8y ago
matheusmoreira 8y ago
The important thing is enjoying the game and having fun. The number of people watching the stream shouldn't have a negative impact on that. Lots of streamers seem to approach video games like they're some kind of full time job. They play games, stream the footage then expect thousands of dollars to start coming in every month. Of course the vast majority of them are going to end up frustrated. These people seem to be doing it solely for the money. I get the impression they wouldn't be playing anything if the potential to monetize their "fun time" didn't exist. I've seen successful youtubers force themselves to play games they don't like because of their fanbase, all while complaining about how the game sucks and sometimes even rage quitting. It's cringeworthy. Why not play the games for the fun of it? It's easier to stream if one starts with that mindset. It costs nothing to stream gaming sessions, so they lose nothing if if nothing comes of it. Even if there's no audience, there are advantages: the stream can be recorded and archived, giving the streamer video footage of great moments they can look back on. People are gonna play games anyway, they might as well stream it.
- robryan 8y ago
  It depends what the stream is for them. If someone is streaming a game they would be playing anyway in their spare time they probably don’t care too much. If someone sees it as their ticket out of a job/career they hate I can see where the frustration would come from.
67_45 8y ago
This reminds me of jackass and skating. There used to be a huge following for jackass stunts and skating culture. I was a part of that following and I loved it. Looking back I am confused because jackass just seems sad. Through the eyes of an adult it loses almost 100 percent of it's charm. I suspect that twitch is the same thing because I just don't get it. People seem to be completely oblivious to the horrible sadness of what they do -- from streaming to an empty chat and all the way to personality worshiping. The whole thing is just awful. I would say it will face the same death as jackass and skater culture.
Havoc 8y ago
Undergoing a similar type vibe with a recently set up website. Barely has content on it so not expecting much, but the low hit-count isn't exactly encouraging & motivating towards putting more content in place. Must be far worse for streamers - that's a hell of a lot more personal.
nybblesio 8y ago
I stream my daily programming routine on Twitch. The key, for me, is exactly this: it's my routine. I don't tailor my routine for Twitch, beyond interacting with my audience. With that said, since starting at the beginning of 2018, I've done better than I expected. I have 1300+ followers on Twitch with decent monthly growth. My daily average viewership numbers are hovering around 40. The first month was an imposition while I fought with the mechanics of running a stream and programming. Now I don't even notice. I talk to myself regardless, so I figured I might as well entertain some folks while I do it. :) I will never make any real money streaming. I knew that going in. But I am meeting a lot of nice people and the old man in me wants to help the youngsters. If I can save one person a few hassles on their journey, it's worth it. Finally, I find YouTube a much harder nut to crack. My channel has seen slow and consistent growth, but slow is the operative word here. Very, very slow. Long form content does not seem to do well. For YouTube, videos <= 15min appears to be the sweet spot.
- gitgud 8y ago
  What kind of programming do you stream? Is it tutorials or work related? I would always be worried that someone would catch a glimpse of a private key or API secret, how do you deal with that?
  - nybblesio 8y ago
    I like to work on low-level projects. I've streamed x86 and ARM64 assembly language, C and C++, and Rust projects. At the moment, I'm working on a compiler for a programming language I call Basecode. With one exception -- that I had to terminate for other reasons -- I stream only open source projects that I have complete ownership over. I don't typically have to worry about exposing keys or passwords.
kesor 8y ago
I streamed myself programming several times. Just having to narrate what I am doing kept me in focus. As a programmer, it is fairly hard to get "in the zone" and stay there, especially when there are rare interruptions. Streaming helped me keep chugging along creating more and more code and TDD without falling to the seduction of visiting social news sites. What I am saying, is that I was streaming for myself mostly. Got lots of value from it. It didn't really matter if there were viewers or not.
- Kuiper 8y ago
  I actually found myself doing somewhat similar when playing digital card games like Magic: The Gathering online and Shadowverse: I would "think out loud" and talk through the lines I was considering them ("Hmm, if I attack like this, then he probably double blocks me, so I don't want to do that...") and also audibly reacting to things that were happening in the game ("...oh, I totally didn't expect that. I got greedy, and my opponent was in a position to punish me. I should have been playing more conservatively.") Whenever I do this, it really forces me to stop playing on "auto-pilot" and actually think about the lines I'm taking, and also better internalize the lessons I'm learning through experience. The difference is that I don't actually stream myself as I'm doing this: I talk the same way a streamer would talk, but the walls of my home office are the only audience. I actually kind of "learned" this approach from watching Magic: The Gathering Youtubers and streamers, who do the "thinking out loud" approach as a way of teaching strategy, but one of the lessons I picked up is that in the process of thinking out loud, these players sometimes seem to talk themselves out of making inadvisable plays, so I decided to try it for myself, minus the audience, and found that it often caused me to play better and learn better. (Of course, this "skill" doesn't really translate over quite as well to tournament Magic when you're sitting across a table from your opponent, but playing better in online practice often translates into playing better in a tournament setting.) Third-hand story: friend of friend has a nephew who spends a lot of time playing Minecraft (grade school age), and as he explores the world, he narrates everything he does in a calm British accent. It's kind of surreal that this genre of Youtube videos (Mincraft Let's Plays by Englishmen speaking with a David Attenborough-like cadence) has taught a generation of kids that this is how people play Minecraft. It reminds me a bit of kids I've seen in youth sports leagues who sometimes make a big show of stomping off in a huff or yelling a soft expletive like "Darn!" when something doesn't go their way, not because they're actually frustrated or invested in the outcome of the game, but because they're mimicking the kind of behavior they've seen from professional athletes on TV. (That's not to say that there aren't kids who get genuinely frustrated during these games, but the more time I spend observing kids in "organized recreation," the more I come to realize just how much of their behavior is performative.)
erikpukinskis 8y ago
People who are amazing do grow organically, with just a little PR work. People who are fun to watch turn random introductions into an audience. You get constant growth for free with <pick your promotion channel here>.... As long as your content is converting watchers to subscribers a low constant growth is plenty to seed the network. Streamers are not “doing simple things to build their audience” because they don’t really want an audience: they want validation. Whatever trickle of exposure they get is enough to signal to them that they’re not converting people because they’re not winning anyone over. You don’t need a lot of data points for that to become very clear. The only way to break out of that is experimentation. And a lot of streamers aren’t really.
madrox 8y ago
I wonder how much of the desire for kids to stream has to do with the potential scale. The bar to entry is low, but if you take off, then you're making six figures a month. Once upon a time, mobile apps had that kind of reputation. Before that, it was blogs. Before that, websites. There always seems to be a gold rush whenever a market becomes democratized. The gold rush seems to end once organic acquisition is no longer viable. I'm curious if that follows some static cost-per-user marketing dollar amount across all of these trends.
JohnCrane 8y ago
play video games because you want to, not because you want people to watch you. problem solved!
d4rkd0s 8y ago
There should be a much better way to find/locate the "bottom" bucket streamers, and get them up in front of people's faces. Sorting by "viewers" is just wrong, lets the rich grow richer...
FrozenVoid 8y ago
It would sound absurd to broadcast to zero audience, but they're not simply broadcasting they're cultivating presence on the platform and honing their skills towards that end.
deleted 8y ago
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nso95 8y ago
Game development streams on Twitch are absolutely addictive.
xchaotic 8y ago
like everything else in 2018, live-streaming is overhyped and competes with everything else - work, sleep, netflix, social etc. I also don't think the focus on gaming / live streaming is enough of a differntiator - youtube does livestreams just fine, Facebook is catching up and I think youtube/alphabet have better economies of scale (with their own cloud infra, additional ad revenue etc) and more tightly integrated ecosystem (preinstalled youtube on Android etc.
lbill 8y ago
Like many (many many many) people, I stream. I don't get a ton of viewers, but I very rarely get 0. Here are the "magic" tricks I use: - First trick: I didn't start alone. I belong to a small group of friends that were already involved in amateur video productions on YouTube, and had some other friends hanging out and enjoying our videos. We started a twitch channel as a group a established a schedule: 90% of the time, when a member of our group launches a stream, the other members watch and interact on the chat. And so do some of or friends (not 90% of the time though, but it's all right). - Second trick: we associated ourselves with another streaming structure. We quit a while ago because we both evolved toward different directions, but in our time there we met other streamers, because very good friends with some of them and became part of their community... and they became part of our's as well! We do occasionally organize some common twitch events with them. Not because it might bring us some viewers, but because we like playing with them. - Third trick: since we are a group, it is very easy for us to keep an active presence on tweeter and facebook. When something really funny happens on our live-stream, there is usually someone available to do a clip and publish it. - Last trick: we all have jobs, we all have lives. We don't rely on twitch to get revenue nor to get social interaction. In other words: if we fail on twitch, we'll be quite all right. When we stream we talk, play and have a ton of fun... and sometimes a random viewer discovers us! And when we're lucky, he/she decides to become a regular. While that's nice, it doesn't really matter: we're doing it out of passion, not for the numbers. If success finally comes, good. If boredom comes before, we'll just stop and move on. (note: I won't post our channel name here, it isn't the point of this post. Besides, we are french, and it turns out that most people in this strange world don't speak french)
jlebrech 8y ago
is there a way to see which games people want to watch and compare that to your library and get a suggestion?
bsaul 8y ago
Kind of remind me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merv_Griffin_Show_(Seinfeld) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merv_Griffin_Show_(Seinfel...
IronWolve 8y ago
Amazed nobody referenced Pareto's principle (80/20) rule. 20% of the streamers get 80% of the viewers.

456 points by ss2003 8y ago

Are these not people who are just deluding themselves that they are doing it out of love, when all they want to do is be famous?

Twisol 8y ago
I can only speak for myself, but as someone who streams off and on (mostly off, since I've got other things going on right now that I need to focus on), I have no particular desire to be famous. I'd rather not be famous. But it's really enjoyable to be able to share my experiences with other people. For a lot of games (most?), there's a significant amount of organic content that comes out of you, a specific person, going through a game's content and seeing it for the first time (or the second, or third, ... for games that have that kind of replay value). Having even one other person engaged with your journey, and reacting alongside you -- that's fun. It's not the same as having friends over. You play with your friends. They're having their own experience, and you're having yours. Streamers get to have other people share that experience. (To `moretai's downvoters: Yes, we can read their comment as an insensitive, unimaginative put-down of this group of people. But why should we? I think there's an interesting point to be discussed here, and I'm more than willing to read `moretai's comment as a genuine question.)
- moretai 8y ago
  It was a genuine question. I understand where you are coming from. But I wonder how far you have rationalized away from the point that it is you that are the source of the fun, and the other people are in for the ride. Your ride. You are not playing with these people. These people are watching YOU.
  - Twisol 8y ago
    I think I made that point clear in my comment. As I said, it's a very different experience from playing with friends.
LoSboccacc 8y ago
Depends. I’d say for example that the primitive technology channel does it out of love. So there are people like that, even if the wast majority does it because let’s be honest a career in video gaming sounds great. But the thing is those are also the least likely to attract viewers. Top spots nowadays are claimed by sponsored players anyway and making it as an amateur is nightmarish difficult. Fame grows exponentially because once a talent emerges companies are quick to sign it up and after that they provide most of the promotion for their talent to grow.
- wilsonnb2 8y ago
  The primitive technology guy doesn't stream, though, as far as I know. He just makes videos.
- moretai 8y ago
  But there is a way for the primitive technology channel to be monetized. For him to gain recognition, as opposed to him just building his wooden houses in isolation. Without anyone knowing. It is not as if he's unaware of people making millions off of youtube(or being famous, whatever), or the internet. We can't separate youtube no matter how "primitive" the action being filmed is. He may be doing it out of pure love, but if it was true love, why does he feel the need to film it? To help others? Why do any of us need to know how to do this, and how does a video help? He most likely got good at building a log house from building hundreds of shitty log houses from before.

ryandrake 8y ago

> Despite the sometimes psychologically taxing nature of trying to get noticed on Twitch, some continue to persevere despite the cold indictment of the zero. Maybe I’m advocating a bit of a dark pattern here, but couldn’t Twitch keep streamers engaged by seeding streams with a few fake AI bots as viewers? This seems like it might be a little of the Empty Restaurant Effect. People hesitate to go into a restaurant if there’s nobody else eating there. So provide a few fake diners.

smallnamespace 8y ago
Eventually people in the community will notice that 'few' === zero, so this becomes essentially an information tax on new Twitch viewers. Plus, you know, they'd be lying to people.
scrooched_moose 8y ago
I'm not very familiar with Twitch, but isn't the community interaction (text/voice chat?) a large component of it? I'd imagine these streamers would be very interested in chatting with the 1 or 2 people who stopped by their stream. If the bots can't respond they'd be found on pretty quick, and making bots who can pass some sort of "video game specific Turing test" is a major endeavor. Only getting instantly recognizable fake viewers would as demoralizing as no viewers.
- Merem 8y ago
  Yes and no. The thing is, the majority of the viewers usually doesn't write to the streamer. They simply watch the stream, nothing more. So having five real viewers but no one is writing anything (or answering) is definitely possible. Still, interacting with viewers is where it gets interesting and it is live-streaming after all, so that's actually the point (otherwise you could just create a video and upload it somewhere).
  - fabatka 8y ago
    I would think that the ratio of "interactive" viewers is higher for streams with less viewers (because of the different atmosphere, non-professional streamers being able to interact more personally with the audience...).

crusso 8y ago

Normally, when I do play videogames, it's a private sort of thing between myself and my game system. I just recently ran across some twitch channels via youtube because I was looking for some help with some Dark Souls III content. It's like a whole different universe with people who live and breath these games every waking moment. I found it very interesting to see that it's a whole way of life with this many people. Now I'm tempted to watch some of these twitch broadcasters even though I'm not interested in the games that they're playing.

local_yokel 8y ago
Come watch some DS3 speedruns and travel even further down the rabbit hole of people who know everything about the game to an absolutely obsessive degree and are insanely good at playing it. It's not for everyone mind you, but I find it hugely entertaining if you take the time to appreciate it.

rch 8y ago

Isn't this similar to posting on SoundCloud with no specific intent or expectation? Publishing content is an easy way to make it available on a bunch of devices, so if you're not concerned with outcomes then what's the difference? Need to read the article I guess. Edit: OK, some people expect to attract a following and are having trouble: > attracts over two million broadcasters every month ... Discoverability is an issue No kidding.

coding123 8y ago

Ok, post your streams and I'll watch a few minutes.

wheelie_boy 8y ago

In the far future when food, shelter, and other necessities are basically free, attention will be the last valuable commodity. There will always be a scarcity of attention.

Tade0 8y ago
Makes one imagine a very different Star Trek universe.
- nostrademons 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Callister https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Callister
Apocryphon 8y ago
Maybe we can make AI who can be good consumers.
Applejinx 8y ago
This is true, but we have a lot of work to do before we have the first part sorted. Right now we're looking at a scenario where attention's becoming a marketable commodity, but the penalty for failing to maximize it is starvation and ruin, because food and shelter are far from being a given.

minimaxir 8y ago

Per Twitch's stream analytics, on one of my data science programming streams on Twitch the majority of my viewers came from the Explore page, under the relatively-less-popular Programming category. I wonder if there's a bit of game theory in play where it's impossible to be discovered when playing a megapopular game like Overwatch/Fortnite, and it's more advantageous to play relatively more obscure games. It wouldn't be the first time working the long-tail has been effective.

nlowell 8y ago
At least for streamers who are already somewhat established, the metagame is actually to move to whichever game is most popular with viewers.
- minimaxir 8y ago
  That's also true. I wonder what the establishment inflection point is?
  - Macha 8y ago
    Probably getting into the top two rows with your own fanbase so you can attract organic traffic just clicking $game.
satsuma 8y ago
an interesting side effect of something like that is the hop-ons during the games done quick streams -- often times you'll see streamers switch games to whatever's being played on stream in the hopes someone will... misclick, or get bored and check out the other streams in the game or something. you also see it when a large streamer is playing a relatively unknown game (sodapoppin used to have a semi-weekly stream where he played games subscribers recommended, usually bargain bin or free to play shovelware)
lev99 8y ago
> I wonder if there's a bit of game theory in play where it's impossible to be discovered when playing a megapopular game like Overwatch/Fortnite, and it's more advantageous to play relatively more obscure games. I do not think most twitch streamers are trying to be professionals. I think most streamers are just trying to add more fun into their game time. In game theory everyone's main objective is the same, in this case measured in either revenue or viewers. In the twitch world most streamers are trying to maximize fun instead of viewers or revenue. (Disclosure: I stream relatively obscure games, and know many other streamers in both megapopular and obscure games.)

satsuma 8y ago

every year i participate in the extra life streamathon fundraiser. i usually get a few viewers here and there but for the most part it's just me the whole time. the concept of streaming for nobody is a little disheartening, especially if you're narrating to yourself, but when people come in and i interact for a few minutes it's a lot of fun. i'm looking forward to it next year for sure.

eropple 8y ago
I run a decent-sized Extra Life event (not just me, but friends and usually on-location--one of my sidelines is live video production). It helps to do it with other people. Grab friends, find a couch. If you're having fun live, you'll retain the people who do bounce by. Our first year we raised $3500, our second $6500. We didn't really try that hard--just a little, and I mean a little, marketing (and some Boston-local guests, but those were fairly small bumps in viewership). Last time around we had a minimum of five viewers who were not us/our program feed/etc. even at like 4AM because we kept turning the crank with Twitter, Facebook, etc.

pjc50 8y ago

I can't help but wonder why people in this position don't give up earlier. It sounds like you need quite a bit of the right sort of self-promotion to get off the ground floor. Only once you've got enough of an audience will word-of-mouth start working for you.

Siecje 8y ago
You are playing video games anyways, why not hit "Start Streaming" and if something really cool happens you can highlight it and download it. This only works if you have a good Internet connection.
- steveklabnik 8y ago
  I'm fairly new to Twitch, and I do this. It didn't hit me until I had decided to take a break and play off-stream, and then something really cool happened, and it made me kinda sad that I didn't have a record of it. I would have had I been streaming...
icebraining 8y ago
Seems similar to the stereotypical aspiring Hollywood actor/actress. I wonder if Lynch will ever do a film about an aspiring streamer.
eropple 8y ago
Speaking just for myself: my girlfriend and I and maybe a friend or two just stream video games because it's fun to play them. Friends usually pop in and shoot the shit with us in chat, but it's usually three or four people max. It helps that one of my sidelines is live video production, so our production quality is usually pretty good and streaming also makes me better for when I have to roll out somewhere and do a show, but still--it's just fun.

metalliqaz 8y ago

What I don't understand about Twitch is how anyone has time to consume this content. When it comes to sitting on your butt and watching something, the traditional TV show is moving to an on-demand model. Twitch is a step in the other direction, where if you faithfully consume content from any Twitch channel, you have to sit down and watch for hours every night when the streamer is online. Who does that? I imagine it's mostly students and single young professionals.

qwerty9876 8y ago
It makes sense if the player is REALLY good at the game, ie. in the top 0.1% globally or similar. It serves as a learning experience. You will learn much faster by watching a good player compared to grinding the game and slowly discovering the same mechanics yourself. You probably wouldn't watch some random kids stream of them playing football in their backyard. Now imagine Messi himself doing exactly that and also commenting it live, explaining all his tricks and his reasoning for every move he makes on the field. I bet you would be much more interested.
olliej 8y ago
Streams are stored so you can watch after the fact, in which case it’s basically TV. There’s no requirement that you only watch while they’re online.
invalidusernam3 8y ago
I guess people treat it like sport. Most people wouldn't think it strange for someone to watch a 90 minute football match
- elif 8y ago
  or in the case of american football fans, watch 3 hours and 4 minutes of ads and commentary around 11 minutes of plays.
natural219 8y ago
replace "watching TV" with "hanging out with your friends" and maybe it makes more sense

jcfrei 8y ago

Very interesting article. I have nothing substantial to add I just want to point out how "cyberpunky" the lives of some people have become. Twenty years ago this would have fit right into the storyline of a dystopian cyberpunk novel about poor streamers who spend all day in front of a computer screen trying to become the most popular "gamer in the online gaming community".

bumholio 8y ago
It's a story as old as the world: trying to get noticed while doing essentially the same thing as the successful kids, but lacking that essential element of luck or genetics, that last second on the chronometer, that "in" preexisting social circle. It's the life of all those trying to enter into high risk, highly coveted careers that afford celebrity: authorship, sports, politics, music or film. The field might be changing but the game remains the same: humans mostly value what other humans happen to value, the other 99.99% comparable but unknown products are simply discarded.
- WilliamEdward 8y ago
  The problem is trying to do the exact same thing as someone else. There has never been a business or method of making money in the history of capitalism that has survived by being an exact copy of another business or method. Even businesses with the same model as a bigger one, eg: small vs large car repair businesses, are able to function by having a different pricing point, location, etc. No one seems to understand that this applies to your job too. You're never going to be as successful as someone else by doing the exact same thing as them, because they got there first. Find your niche.
  - ForRealsies 8y ago
    I agree, big fan of Creatives finding their niche. People in general have a tendency to half-ass everything. Find a niche, find the dedicated userbase that is so starving for content that they consume the aforementioned half-assed work happily. Then serve them up a Filet Mignon and blow their minds.

socrates1998 8y ago

Most people are not interesting enough to watch play a video game. Which means, most people should NOT be doing this. Or at least doing it with the expectation that people will watch them. You have to be something that sets you apart. Super good, super funny, or entertaining. Just playing a game and making dick jokes isn't interesting or funny.

widgitybear 8y ago
I think you're underestimating the power of good dick... jokes.

com2kid 8y ago

I am a regular of a low viewer count stream, choaslegionkaeru, who is pretty good and talkative. He rarely gets past 10 streamers, and his style isn't for everyone and I don't think he'll ever be a massive success, but I enjoy watching and interacting with him. I've tuned into other low viewer streams, and a lot of them are just bad. The gameplay is bad, and the streamer isn't entertaining. A successful streamer needs one or the other, either be one of the top in the world for the game you are playing, or be super entertaining to listen to. For the later, the game itself is more of a set piece around a comedy bit.

mkirklions 8y ago
This sounds like the twitter Financial Independence blogging community. People with 0 new advice, rehashing the same old credit card rewards and budgeting advice. Its so terrible that there are people claiming 'frugal ways to eat' and claim 50$/week per person for food is frugal. A single google search would tell you that under 30$/week is a good goal. This drives me crazy because we are eating for 20$/week and actually put hundreds of hours into studying this. In the end, my website gets hundreds of viewers a day, their blogs arent ranked on alexa.
- xenihn 8y ago
  What's your website?
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    http://efficiencyiseverything.com/ http://efficiencyiseverything.com/
- 0xffff2 8y ago
  This is tangential, but what's a good starting point for "frugal ways to eat"? I'm not even remotely interested in getting down to $30/week, but my current budget is "not to exceed" $30/day, and I probably average around $20/day, and I generally cook at least one meal per day at home. Even in a week where I only at food cooked at home I can't imagine getting under $70/week. I'm curious what I would have to give up to get to $50, much less $30.

mathnmusic 8y ago

It would be great to have more programmers streaming their open-source work on Twitch. There's so much informal knowledge out there which can be learned by just watching experts at work.

cuckcuckspruce 8y ago
I've toyed with having a "Watch me Linux" stream where chat shouts out things they want to know about Linux and I show them / help people with their Linux problems.
- vultour 8y ago
  I'd like to do some infrastructure streams where I play around with things like my Kubernetes cluster, unfortunately it seems like a pretty bad idea to livestream configuration of something that is connected to the internet.
  - vkou 8y ago
    If you're lucky, you'll probably learn a few lessons on security really quickly.
  - cuckcuckspruce 8y ago
    I was going to set up a VirtualBox virtual network disconnected from the Internet to do this - perhaps only allowing HTTPS to a Debian/Ubuntu mirror if I need to install packages. You could do something similar for your Kubernetes cluster. I was also considering a cheap, pay-by-the hour VPS that I could just destroy after the stream.

olliej 8y ago

How many of these streamers are just “I enjoy this game” and stream for the hell of it? Surely a bunch of the people with zero/few followers just don’t care?

adrr 8y ago
Its a learning experience for them as well. They'll get better at public performance much like practising a speech alone at your house.

SurrealSoul 8y ago

I personally know Markipler (youtube, 23M+) as well as follow some other people here and there. There is a youtuber; BloominBanana I subbed around the same time I subbed to Markipler 2010ish, they both do (did?) the same horror gameplay except Bloomin' has about 12 subs on youtube. Mark as I knew him was the king of 'going out there' he was never afraid of marketing, publicity stunts and was honestly humble to his huge user base where Bloomin' despised marketing and wanted to grow "organically". Growing organically isn't possible. You need to do something, you need to bot and break rules on twitch, you need to ask for publicity, you need to make friends with other streamers. Playing a game and being funny doesn't cut it anymore

drawnwren 8y ago
This applies to every form of attention driven media that I'm aware of. From your start-up to your new Instagram, if you want attention -- you need to hustle.
leviathant 8y ago
Yeah. Speaking as someone who ran a rather large fansite about NIN in the 2000s (the entity now basically exists as a Twitter account), you really cannot just "grow organically" on today's internet. I like to tell people I have a marketing allergy. Self-promotion feels gross. The "if you build it, they will come" mantra from Field of Dreams is not applicable to a world where so much more content is being created than can possibly be consumed. But I realize that if I want something that I'm doing to gain any traction at all, I have to get other people talking about it, and that there are pretty well established ways of making that happen. When the internet was a smaller space occupied primarily by nerdy types, you could make something interesting and by the nature of the medium, a lot of people found it. You thought you really hit it big if you made Slashdot, but getting featured on television took it to a whole different level. (For example: The Dancing Baby) You didn't need to have a face or a personality - your content actually could speak for itself. But even back then, taking those extra steps usually didn't hurt, either. Now, the internet is full of professionals of all stripes, and that means you're fighting for attention against people or entities who have a budget for marketing and PR. I can take the most beautiful photos in the world and put them on Instagram, but if I'm not actively marketing that account, no one will ever see them. Meanwhile, some dope with a fresh set of credit cards rents a Lamborghini for a photo shoot, buys batches of followers, and that will grow a following, and maybe he'll get a free night at a posh hotel out of it. Maybe Bloomin' just does it for the love of it. Maybe Markipler has been able to quit their job and make YouTube their profession. I bet both of them wish they had aspects of the other's experiences. As much exposure as I got to being a small-beans niche internet 'celebrity' (like, on the level of local weatherman), I wouldn't wish fame on my worst enemy.

memelord69 8y ago

there are hundreds of these dudes. I have one followed that I see streaming all the time with 1 viewer which is probably himself. He’s on social aid or something in Danemark.

apeace 8y ago

I too have met kids who say they want to be a Youtuber or Twitch streamer when they grow up. It makes me sad. I love watching Twitch, and watch 5-7 gamers regularly (almost every night). From what I can tell, most of them: - Are in their mid-20's to early 30's. - Live with their parents. - Make just enough from Youtube/Twitch/Patreon/merch to fund their gaming rigs, buy new games, buy their own food, and maybe pay for an upgraded internet connection. These are people who in some cases have hundreds of thousands of followers on Youtube and each Twitch stream attracts over two thousand viewers. It's not a good way to make a living. I've asked several of them if they make a full-time living (via Twitch chat), and they've acknowledged the question, but didn't seem to want to really answer it. A couple of them even make a joke out of it every time their sibling starts torrenting and it slows down their network connection. If I ever have a kid, I'll support their dream of becoming one of these people. And I'll also tell them they're not living in my house past the age of 18. Figure out a way to make money while doing what you love.

com2kid 8y ago
> and each Twitch stream attracts over two thousand viewers. It's not a good way to make a living. To contrast with that, I know twitch streamers whose channel averages out at around 300 viewers a time, and who make a very comfortable living. Having a properly run channel that encourages donations, cash and bits, is a huge part of it. I've seen streamers who pull an easy $200 a day in donations. Add in 500 or so subs, and it isn't too hard to break 6k a month. Not enough to live in the Bay Area, but a really nice salary in most of the country.
- izzydata 8y ago
  Trying to win the lottery is not a good life goal.
  - welly 8y ago
    Is aspiring to being a top Twitch streamer any different than those aspiring to be a top musician, artist or actor? You'd have to be fantastic at your particular game or whatever they stream on Twitch (I know absolutely nothing about this platform) and great at self promotion. Not unlike wanting to be a rock star or movie star. I fail to see how it's any more like a lottery win than being in other forms of media, other than it's a very new platform (in the grand scheme of things). It wouldn't be for me but I'm sure plenty of people are making plenty of money and Twitch has its own Justin Bieber/Miley Cyrus (or whoever is the pop star of choice today. Yeah, I'm getting old).

draw_down 8y ago

The streams I have watched so far are more like extemporaneous comedy shows, with the game as either background noise, or providing something for the hosts to riff on. I’m sure that for many the game is the actual point, but for me if the hosts aren’t entertaining personalities in themselves I wouldn’t be interested in watching just for the game.

izzydata 8y ago

The way people use Twitch makes little sense to me. It might have to do with some age gap, but it doesn't seem like 10-15 years should really make this big of a disconnect. When I think of gaming it is strictly about playing for fun and engaging with friends in a kind of hanging out in a living room together way. Maybe that is how all twitch channels start off, but once you hit some threshold where the streamer can no longer engage with the audience in any personable way and it becomes more of a job it is no longer appealing to me. It is even as far as off-putting to where I'd avoid it and those kinds of communities. I occasionally stream to 0-3 people for the fun of it and to talk to people as if we were in a room together as that is more what gaming is to me. It seems that I'm in the very small minority these days though.

munificent 8y ago
> it is strictly about playing for fun and engaging with friends in a kind of hanging out in a living room together way. For some, Twitch is to playing games as talk shows are to conversation with friends. It gives people a fraction of the mental reward of social interaction without any of the effort or risk of actual social interaction. It's like a junk food snack for the social center of your brain. I definitely see the appeal and find myself getting sucked into that way of satisfying my need for human contact sometimes, but it ultimately always leaves me unsatisfied in the long run. For others, I think Twitch is just watching a TV show that happens to be a game. They just want to passively experience the narrative of the game without the effort of playing. Or perhaps they want the meta-narrative of watching the player interact with the game.
- izzydata 8y ago
  Playing a game is already an effortless activity that is hard to believe people are even unwilling to do that. I can maybe understand if you couldn't afford it or didn't want to afford it, but there are countless recordings of any video game on youtube without commentary.

quantumwoke 8y ago

This article misunderstands or at least downplays the motivations of most of the smaller streamers on Twitch. On HN a good analogy would be the startup scene, where plenty of startups are made out of passion and a desire to solve a need in the community. Streamers are like these small startups, a lot of them set out to make money but many are content with just the experience, similar to a side project. I often browse small 1-4 viewer streams just to see what's happening and you can sometimes find interesting and unique people who are just there for the fun of it.

bdz 8y ago

Myself I stream to archive my gameplay. It's just good to look back some moments and some interactions later so if I record it then why not broadcast it too? I guess I fall in the same situation because I only have 1-2 viewers.

JeremyBanks 8y ago
If you're streaming as archiving (which I also do), YouTube is simpler since it automatically keeps all of your VODs without you needing to explicitly save each one.

nickjj 8y ago

You could replace this title with "Programmers who spend years creating a SAAS app that no one uses" and it would be the same article. All of these streamers who are bothered by not having an audience seem to have started for the wrong reasons. If all they care about are subscribers and viewers, then you're going to get really burnt out when that doesn't happen. Most of the popular streamers who I've come across do it because they enjoy it. The same can be said for the people who create successful SAAS apps. It's a mix of enjoying what they do, combined with making something that no one else has yet. It's not to get rich quick.

Shivetya 8y ago
It would be even simpler to replace it with "Bloggers who have no audience". There are countless blogs out there and more everyday and few if any ever gain traction. However we must see it also from the small business perspective. How many start a business versus how many succeed? I remember when coffee shops, cupcake shops, and more, were the fad, and they vanish with regularity.
- nickjj 8y ago
  Yes for sure, right after I posted that reply I thought about blogging too. It definitely is the same story. It took me almost a year of regular blogging before I got some type of readership on my site, and even today, 3 years later, I wouldn't consider it popular. My intent was never to get make money on the site. It was to create documentation for myself (and anyone else who wants to follow along).
- mkirklions 8y ago
  I have a website that broke past the 'no-one cares' blogging stage. The most important thing was being unique with quality. While other people parrot the best credit card rewards, we did serious research into finding the best Calories Per Dollar, Protein Per Dollar, Vitamin A per dollar, etc... But like the other person mentioned, I dont like shoving it in people's faces. I'm finally at the point that I get hundreds of googles a day and Ive meet people IRL that have been on my website. The biggest deal is to provide value that no one else is. Most people are wayy to lazy. They would rather spend 4 hours on a blog post instead of 20.

kawfey 8y ago

To anyone wondering why people spend time watching people play video games: billions of people spend time watching people play sports.

peterwwillis 8y ago
I don't get those people either.

coldtea 8y ago

>“It’s kind of exhausting playing to an empty room day in and day out with no results,” one Redditor wrote on a now-deleted thread on r/Twitch. Maybe you should play for the game, like gamers did since the dawn of ...well, Space Invaders and Pacman, and not for the audience.

rydogg 8y ago

rocket league is more entertaining to watch than any other sport

georgeecollins 8y ago

Isn't it strange to think that on one hand we worry that people are spying on us, on the other hand we are kind of desperate for an audience?

vfc1 8y ago

Why not blog tips and tricks about the game, or create Youtube How To videos to build an audience in the first place? The best way to create an audience out of nothing is still by far a blog.

thepumpkin1979 8y ago

I can relate to this, two weeks ago I started streaming from my Xbox and I've been enjoying 1-2 viewers at the time, sometimes 4 when I post the link to Facebook. To me 1-2 viewers is a lot, of course I play a game no one is playing: Battlefield Hardline. The twitch channel for Battlefield Hardline has 3 streamers tops on weekends and I happen to be one of them. I bet I'd be getting zero viewers if I was playing Fortnite.

preparedzebra 8y ago

Sometimes they make a big break though, and they would've been gaming anyways. Seems like risk adjusted reward is extremely favorable.

hartator 8y ago

I don't see the issue with that. We won't complain when our kids try to make a movie no one will really see, how is this creative process different?

crcl 8y ago

Nipl

glitcher 8y ago

> "According to people who have gone through it, lacking an audience is one of the most demoralizing things you can experience online." Um, what about bullying, doxxing, hacking, identify theft, etc?

Nannooskeeska 8y ago
I'd assume that the people who are getting zero viewers aren't generally the same people getting bullied, doxxed, hacked, identity-thefted, and so on.

Sohcahtoa82 8y ago

So many kids these days want to be Twitch streamers. I think it's the gamer version of wanting to grow up to be a NFL/NBA/MLB/etc. player.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
WilliamEdward 8y ago
They have e-sports you know. The gamer version of wanting to grow up to be a pro athlete would literally be becoming a pro e-sports athlete in dota or something.

pnathan 8y ago

Reminds me of IRC channels, except located around a nexus of a specific micro-celebrity.

calgoo 8y ago

I was working from home for about 1.5 years. My daily contact was a morning phone call with the others on the team. Having a twitch stream open for 8+ hours in the background works really well for me as its more like having a radio on then a TV. Its not that you are sitting there watching every thing that the streamer is doing. You are more listening and glancing at it once in a while. A second aspect that i really enjoy in relation to twitch streams is the chat community and the interaction you can have live with the streamer. Its basically a IRC chat channel that the streamer is the owner of. So even when the stream is offline, you can hang around chatting with friends that you make online. It really remind me of my old mIRC days. Its all about finding a community that you enjoy, not all stream chats are the same. Some can be quite toxic but most streamers have Mods that ban people quickly for hate speech etc. There are also people that are coding on twitch these days, and i really enjoy having one of those streams open while coding myself. Whenever i get stuck on something, or am thinking about an issue / design I like watching what the streamer is coding for a few min. It tends to help me work out the problems quicker and the designs are normally better thought out.

ghuntley 8y ago

Twitch isn't just about playing games. There's a growing community of people like myself who use the platform to teach people how to write software. In my case as an opensource maintainer I use it as a way to break down opensource and introduce people to what the role entails. Follow me at https://twitch.tv/geoffreyhuntley https://twitch.tv/geoffreyhuntley and https://youtube.com/c/geoffreyhuntley https://youtube.com/c/geoffreyhuntley and https://twitter.com/geoffreyhuntley https://twitter.com/geoffreyhuntley

Ologn 8y ago
Yes. There is a contest that exists called "Ludum Dare" where a theme is announced, and within 2-3 days people have to design a video game fitting that theme. One person who took up the challenge was Minecraft creator Markus "Notch" Persson ( https://www.twitch.tv/videos/38122415 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/38122415 ). You see him coding for 11 hours or so, and at some points (like in the beginning) he talks about what his gameplan for coding the project are. Throughout you see a screen share of him coding, or drawing a tile map, or the like. It's an interesting thing if you want to see how a very successful game programmer that had to put a finished game together within 2-3 days would go about it.

rossdavidh 8y ago

So, I'm just going to say this, even though probably everyone already knows it: there are way, way more people looking to make a living off of producing content (Youtube, Twitch, etc.) for the internet, than there are people thinking, "If only there were more content on the Internet, I would pay some money or put up with some ads for that." There's nothing wrong with putting it out there if you want to, but expecting any kind of financial reward or other validation from the size of your audience seems like injecting yourself into a pretty vicious zero-sum game.

Retric 8y ago
I suspect their are far more viewers than people making content. The issue is 1 or even 10 viewers is no where near enough to support a content creator.
- rubicon33 8y ago
  I find it fascinating that the distribution of resources is almost always NON-LINEAR. Take capital wealth. Money. That is a heavily non-linear distribution. Twitch is no different. If you use viewers as a proxy for wealth, it's fascinating that even that proxy behaves in a non-linear way. I happen to have heard some interesting behavioral theories about why resources distribute in that manner. I'm always curious about what other people think.
  - rossdavidh 8y ago
    I agree that the "natural" result will always be something along the lines of a Pareto distribution. That's bad news for my libertarian instincts, because I think it means that, in the absence of any mechanism to (partially) flatten this distribution back out, we inevitably see power accumulate more and more in the hands of fewer and fewer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution

mgr86 8y ago

I'll share my personal use of twitch streams. I really enjoy AOE2. The game might be nearing its second decade, but its very enjoyable for me to watch personally. I will use youtube-dl to grab past broadcasts and play the games back at 1.5x to 2x speed. I can easily skip through parts I find uninteresting. I'll generally watch one or two games per day, but my time commitment is under 30mins.

therealdrag0 8y ago
Are they playing against other humans? I got AOE2 HD a couple months ago and it's been my go-to game this summer. But I haven't thought of looking on twitch or for multiplayer online.
- mgr86 8y ago
  Yes, there is quite the competitive scene. And many streamers on twitch. However, most of the competitive games are played on Voobly. There are guides out there about playing AOE2HD on Voobly. There is a 60k tournament underway. Tiny compared to other games, but respectable considering the age of this game. The game's audience is mainly international. Large player bases in china, Vietnam, EU, and south america. The community can mainly be found at aoezone.net. There is a smaller community also on reddit.com/r/aoe2

KirinDave 8y ago

Having spent literally hundreds of hours producing video game content for youtube and twitch, I can say this: It's an incredibly sad, discouraging experience even if you get traction (and I got some traction). It's also utterly hollow: your entire existence is as a wrapper around the content folks actually want to see. The most successful streamers develop their own brand, but these people are the 0.5%, the Felixs and the _sips and the ZachScotts. They're the exception, and even they have specific genres and subjects that if they venture into they risk losing a massive chunk of their audience. Once I realized this, I had to stop trying to do it professionally. I'd rather go back to doing software product work. At least I feel like a real person with real impact in this field, as opposed to one of a billion interchangeable wrappers around other people's mostly interchangeable content. But you can of course go see my youtube channel and watch my old minecraft content if you want. Some of the stuff around the middle of my cycle (i.e., D&S play Minecraft, Minecraft the Hard Way, Sunless Minecraft) was pretty solid for the genre.

y2bd 8y ago
Similar boat of making Minecraft videos in the past (2011-2014). It was mostly just my friend and I playing through various Minecraft adventure/puzzle maps. We got a couple dozen to a hundred followers through luck/timing (playing new maps that later become popular) but didn't get too far. Then one day my friend on a whim did a skit that ended up doing very well (it got featured on wired.com and even posted on HN [1]). We got a lot of attention from this skit (and one or two others), but this really wasn't content we wanted to dedicate ourselves towards. It was extremely disheartening seeing the wide disparity between videos we wanted to make and videos that got views--we loved to think that people enjoyed watch us, but it was really clear that most people just wanted to see more of those two/three videos. I don't think I regret the time spent though. Doing LPs definitely strengthened my ability to explain what I'm doing as I'm doing it, a skill I use all the time as a software dev (and one I definitely see others lacking). It also gave me a ton of experience with video editing, which while not as useful professionally is a lot of fun and I think a useful skill to have in your pocket. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3543039 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3543039
- 8y ago

matheusmoreira 8y ago

The important thing is enjoying the game and having fun. The number of people watching the stream shouldn't have a negative impact on that. Lots of streamers seem to approach video games like they're some kind of full time job. They play games, stream the footage then expect thousands of dollars to start coming in every month. Of course the vast majority of them are going to end up frustrated. These people seem to be doing it solely for the money. I get the impression they wouldn't be playing anything if the potential to monetize their "fun time" didn't exist. I've seen successful youtubers force themselves to play games they don't like because of their fanbase, all while complaining about how the game sucks and sometimes even rage quitting. It's cringeworthy. Why not play the games for the fun of it? It's easier to stream if one starts with that mindset. It costs nothing to stream gaming sessions, so they lose nothing if if nothing comes of it. Even if there's no audience, there are advantages: the stream can be recorded and archived, giving the streamer video footage of great moments they can look back on. People are gonna play games anyway, they might as well stream it.

robryan 8y ago
It depends what the stream is for them. If someone is streaming a game they would be playing anyway in their spare time they probably don’t care too much. If someone sees it as their ticket out of a job/career they hate I can see where the frustration would come from.

67_45 8y ago

This reminds me of jackass and skating. There used to be a huge following for jackass stunts and skating culture. I was a part of that following and I loved it. Looking back I am confused because jackass just seems sad. Through the eyes of an adult it loses almost 100 percent of it's charm. I suspect that twitch is the same thing because I just don't get it. People seem to be completely oblivious to the horrible sadness of what they do -- from streaming to an empty chat and all the way to personality worshiping. The whole thing is just awful. I would say it will face the same death as jackass and skater culture.

Havoc 8y ago

Undergoing a similar type vibe with a recently set up website. Barely has content on it so not expecting much, but the low hit-count isn't exactly encouraging & motivating towards putting more content in place. Must be far worse for streamers - that's a hell of a lot more personal.

nybblesio 8y ago

I stream my daily programming routine on Twitch. The key, for me, is exactly this: it's my routine. I don't tailor my routine for Twitch, beyond interacting with my audience. With that said, since starting at the beginning of 2018, I've done better than I expected. I have 1300+ followers on Twitch with decent monthly growth. My daily average viewership numbers are hovering around 40. The first month was an imposition while I fought with the mechanics of running a stream and programming. Now I don't even notice. I talk to myself regardless, so I figured I might as well entertain some folks while I do it. :) I will never make any real money streaming. I knew that going in. But I am meeting a lot of nice people and the old man in me wants to help the youngsters. If I can save one person a few hassles on their journey, it's worth it. Finally, I find YouTube a much harder nut to crack. My channel has seen slow and consistent growth, but slow is the operative word here. Very, very slow. Long form content does not seem to do well. For YouTube, videos <= 15min appears to be the sweet spot.

gitgud 8y ago
What kind of programming do you stream? Is it tutorials or work related? I would always be worried that someone would catch a glimpse of a private key or API secret, how do you deal with that?
- nybblesio 8y ago
  I like to work on low-level projects. I've streamed x86 and ARM64 assembly language, C and C++, and Rust projects. At the moment, I'm working on a compiler for a programming language I call Basecode. With one exception -- that I had to terminate for other reasons -- I stream only open source projects that I have complete ownership over. I don't typically have to worry about exposing keys or passwords.

kesor 8y ago

I streamed myself programming several times. Just having to narrate what I am doing kept me in focus. As a programmer, it is fairly hard to get "in the zone" and stay there, especially when there are rare interruptions. Streaming helped me keep chugging along creating more and more code and TDD without falling to the seduction of visiting social news sites. What I am saying, is that I was streaming for myself mostly. Got lots of value from it. It didn't really matter if there were viewers or not.

Kuiper 8y ago
I actually found myself doing somewhat similar when playing digital card games like Magic: The Gathering online and Shadowverse: I would "think out loud" and talk through the lines I was considering them ("Hmm, if I attack like this, then he probably double blocks me, so I don't want to do that...") and also audibly reacting to things that were happening in the game ("...oh, I totally didn't expect that. I got greedy, and my opponent was in a position to punish me. I should have been playing more conservatively.") Whenever I do this, it really forces me to stop playing on "auto-pilot" and actually think about the lines I'm taking, and also better internalize the lessons I'm learning through experience. The difference is that I don't actually stream myself as I'm doing this: I talk the same way a streamer would talk, but the walls of my home office are the only audience. I actually kind of "learned" this approach from watching Magic: The Gathering Youtubers and streamers, who do the "thinking out loud" approach as a way of teaching strategy, but one of the lessons I picked up is that in the process of thinking out loud, these players sometimes seem to talk themselves out of making inadvisable plays, so I decided to try it for myself, minus the audience, and found that it often caused me to play better and learn better. (Of course, this "skill" doesn't really translate over quite as well to tournament Magic when you're sitting across a table from your opponent, but playing better in online practice often translates into playing better in a tournament setting.) Third-hand story: friend of friend has a nephew who spends a lot of time playing Minecraft (grade school age), and as he explores the world, he narrates everything he does in a calm British accent. It's kind of surreal that this genre of Youtube videos (Mincraft Let's Plays by Englishmen speaking with a David Attenborough-like cadence) has taught a generation of kids that this is how people play Minecraft. It reminds me a bit of kids I've seen in youth sports leagues who sometimes make a big show of stomping off in a huff or yelling a soft expletive like "Darn!" when something doesn't go their way, not because they're actually frustrated or invested in the outcome of the game, but because they're mimicking the kind of behavior they've seen from professional athletes on TV. (That's not to say that there aren't kids who get genuinely frustrated during these games, but the more time I spend observing kids in "organized recreation," the more I come to realize just how much of their behavior is performative.)

erikpukinskis 8y ago

People who are amazing do grow organically, with just a little PR work. People who are fun to watch turn random introductions into an audience. You get constant growth for free with <pick your promotion channel here>.... As long as your content is converting watchers to subscribers a low constant growth is plenty to seed the network. Streamers are not “doing simple things to build their audience” because they don’t really want an audience: they want validation. Whatever trickle of exposure they get is enough to signal to them that they’re not converting people because they’re not winning anyone over. You don’t need a lot of data points for that to become very clear. The only way to break out of that is experimentation. And a lot of streamers aren’t really.

madrox 8y ago

I wonder how much of the desire for kids to stream has to do with the potential scale. The bar to entry is low, but if you take off, then you're making six figures a month. Once upon a time, mobile apps had that kind of reputation. Before that, it was blogs. Before that, websites. There always seems to be a gold rush whenever a market becomes democratized. The gold rush seems to end once organic acquisition is no longer viable. I'm curious if that follows some static cost-per-user marketing dollar amount across all of these trends.

JohnCrane 8y ago

play video games because you want to, not because you want people to watch you. problem solved!

d4rkd0s 8y ago

There should be a much better way to find/locate the "bottom" bucket streamers, and get them up in front of people's faces. Sorting by "viewers" is just wrong, lets the rich grow richer...

FrozenVoid 8y ago

It would sound absurd to broadcast to zero audience, but they're not simply broadcasting they're cultivating presence on the platform and honing their skills towards that end.

deleted 8y ago

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nso95 8y ago

Game development streams on Twitch are absolutely addictive.

xchaotic 8y ago

like everything else in 2018, live-streaming is overhyped and competes with everything else - work, sleep, netflix, social etc. I also don't think the focus on gaming / live streaming is enough of a differntiator - youtube does livestreams just fine, Facebook is catching up and I think youtube/alphabet have better economies of scale (with their own cloud infra, additional ad revenue etc) and more tightly integrated ecosystem (preinstalled youtube on Android etc.

lbill 8y ago

Like many (many many many) people, I stream. I don't get a ton of viewers, but I very rarely get 0. Here are the "magic" tricks I use: - First trick: I didn't start alone. I belong to a small group of friends that were already involved in amateur video productions on YouTube, and had some other friends hanging out and enjoying our videos. We started a twitch channel as a group a established a schedule: 90% of the time, when a member of our group launches a stream, the other members watch and interact on the chat. And so do some of or friends (not 90% of the time though, but it's all right). - Second trick: we associated ourselves with another streaming structure. We quit a while ago because we both evolved toward different directions, but in our time there we met other streamers, because very good friends with some of them and became part of their community... and they became part of our's as well! We do occasionally organize some common twitch events with them. Not because it might bring us some viewers, but because we like playing with them. - Third trick: since we are a group, it is very easy for us to keep an active presence on tweeter and facebook. When something really funny happens on our live-stream, there is usually someone available to do a clip and publish it. - Last trick: we all have jobs, we all have lives. We don't rely on twitch to get revenue nor to get social interaction. In other words: if we fail on twitch, we'll be quite all right. When we stream we talk, play and have a ton of fun... and sometimes a random viewer discovers us! And when we're lucky, he/she decides to become a regular. While that's nice, it doesn't really matter: we're doing it out of passion, not for the numbers. If success finally comes, good. If boredom comes before, we'll just stop and move on. (note: I won't post our channel name here, it isn't the point of this post. Besides, we are french, and it turns out that most people in this strange world don't speak french)

jlebrech 8y ago

is there a way to see which games people want to watch and compare that to your library and get a suggestion?

bsaul 8y ago

Kind of remind me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merv_Griffin_Show_(Seinfeld) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merv_Griffin_Show_(Seinfel...

IronWolve 8y ago

Amazed nobody referenced Pareto's principle (80/20) rule. 20% of the streamers get 80% of the viewers.