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They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value.

by r0fl 8y ago

They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value. The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints.

bunderbunder 8y ago
> The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Haven't done a survey, but quite a few folks I know who work at Mac shops report that their employers have been steering clear of the new MacBooks and just trying to keep the older models they already have alive, while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. Making the keyboard reliable would help, but that touchbar is also a legitimate ergonomic concern for anyone who uses software that requires you to be banging on F-keys all day.
- dvtrn 8y ago
  >while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. This is ultimately what I ended up having to do; not really by choice. My 2015 MBP was stolen, considered looking for a refurb model but found myself test driving an HP Spectre x360-a minute with the keyboard, another few minutes Googling linux driver support on my phone and some other specs. I was walking out the door with the new purchase 15 minutes later. It's been a couple of days now, I still haven't gotten around to throwing *nix at it, but for a majority of purposes WSL is getting me by pretty nicely enough. A few days of getting a fresh Windows installation and ridding myself of all that retail bloatware, I'm actually not having a bad time with Windows 10 given it's the first time I've dailied a windows machine since XPSP1. That's how far I'm going to avoid the new mbp because key input means that much to me-given how much time I spend in text fields, but this is a really enjoyable machine so far. After 3 years though my eyes definitely got used to the retina display, and this screen just can't match the color variation or the deep darks-then again it also may be the high gloss touch screen.
  - chx 8y ago
    I wrote up some tips on how to make Windows 10 more palatable for a Linux user. https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Windows-10-(coming-from-Linux) https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Wi...
    - dvtrn 8y ago
      Good god almighty that easy window dragging is getting installed right tf now. Thanks for putting this list together!
- fortythirteen 8y ago
  I'm being forced into an timed upgrade by corporate and I couldn't be unhappier. If some of the extraneous software needed to work in the environment wasn't Mac/Windows only, I'd request a hi-res Thinkpad and throw Linux on it. Even my ~2010 iMac at home runs Ubuntu.
  - bscphil 8y ago
    You might consider running Windows virtualized. About 5 years ago it was still a little janky and slow. These days those problems are mostly non-existent. I run heavy Adobe applications through VirtualBox and can't tell any difference from native speeds, even on my older laptop.
- bigpeopleareold 8y ago
  Maybe 2019 will be the year of the Linux desktop? :)
  - octorian 8y ago
    Every time one of the big boys screws up, we all hope for this. Then the relevant players in the Linux community fail to get their shit together and the cycle repeats itself.
    - dj-wonk 8y ago
      In your view, what would it take for the big players to "get their [act] together"? I'd like to hear a bit more of how you see it. What players would need to work together or coordinate? What are some more-or-less realistic paths forward?
      - octorian 8y ago
        First, they'd need to have a willingness to license "encumbered" codecs, drivers, etc, even if it meant charging for a version of their product. Second, it would involve a ton of product testing, and tedious ironing out of rough edges. Every single time an installation or upgrade fails, or runs into a strange error needing obscure forum searches to fix it, that's a problem. Third, they'd have to seriously cozy up to proprietary software vendors for application support. This one is unfortunately an endless time and money sink, and can't pay off until they have enough users that they don't need to do it anymore. Thankfully F/OSS options provide some limits on this, but not entirely. Many times there are F/OSS options that are usable, but the proprietary ones are better (and worth paying for). This is just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Its not well researched or thought out, but a starting point for a conversation.
        skgoa 8y ago
        I think you are spot on. These are such a huge issues that keep most people away from Linux. The perpetual denial of these issues is a ridiculously huge blind spot in the Linux comunity.
- rbanffy 8y ago
  > trying to keep the older models they already have alive It's not a bad move - if you can maximize the return on DisplayPort monitors, USB keyboards, HDMI cables and MagSafe chargers, it makes sense. Keep in mind the company will eventually have to move to USB-C, as the MacBook Air is the only remaining MagSafe laptop and I won't bet on its longevity. OTOH, the old-style MBPs are enough for most uses, as are the Air for anyone who can live within 8GB.
  - bunderbunder 8y ago
    > the company will eventually have to move to USB-C Not necessarily. A minority of machines are Macs, and I wouldn't be surprised if not wanting to deal with the whole USB-C thing right now is yet another incentive for IT to be interested in ditching Apple.
    - rbanffy 8y ago
      If you have a substantial investment in MagSafe chargers, my bet is that you are a Mac shop already. USB-C is unavoidable.
- mullingitover 8y ago
  > a few folks I know who work at Mac shops report that their employers have been steering clear of the new MacBooks My office is a great example of this. Hundreds of developers here, and I've seen exactly one of the touchbar MBPs in the office. The CIO hates them with a passion, and nobody's demanding them, so it's 2014/2015 MBPs for everyone. There are a lot of Airs, too, but I've seen zero Macbooks.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    My office has hundreds of developers as well. We have about 20% of people with 2017 MacBook Pros, including, myself.
neya 8y ago
This is speculation at best, not a fact. There's no data to indicate that developers aren't the 90% customers.
endorphone 8y ago
The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does The "niche developer/macrumors posters" were extremely happy with it before, and were hearty advocates of it. Further, I would say that developers/enthusiasts comprise a very high percentage of macbook purchasers.
- Kurtz79 8y ago
  "Further, I would say that developers/enthusiasts comprise a very high percentage of macbook purchasers." And you base this assumption on? Every action from Apple in these last few years have gone towards the wishes of the average developer/enthusiast. Worse keyboards, useless gimmicks, gimped CPUs, fewer ports, less repairability/configurability. If they consider developers/enthusiasts as their main audience, they have a really weird way of catering to them. And since Mac sales have been at least steady over the last years, developers/enthusiasts have a really weird way of showing their discontent. https://bgr.com/2018/01/14/mac-sales-2017-marketshare-pc-decline/ https://bgr.com/2018/01/14/mac-sales-2017-marketshare-pc-dec...
  - endorphone 8y ago
    I base it on the fact that among developers it is an extraordinarily popular laptop, and that there are a shitload more developers than most people seem to estimate. We are a pretty large "niche" nowadays. I have a Lenova Yoga 720 and I am almost always the single non Macbook user in any developer group. "developers/enthusiasts have a really weird way of showing their discontent" If you want to use xcode, you have no choice[1]. If you're in the ecosystem, you have no choice. So you complain about it and hope they change it the next time around. [1]-I remote desktop to my desktop, but eh.
    - Kurtz79 8y ago
      My point is that there is a much larger audience outside of our own "niche". The fact that we see a lot of developers with Macs, does not mean that they are a large audience among all of the Mac users. My brother works at an Apple shop, and the vast majority of people he has to attend come from all walks of life, they are not developers/enthusiasts.
nailer 8y ago
> The niche developer/macrumors posters It's not just developers and MacRumors posters. Joe Rogan - the comedian and MMA commentator - did a massive unprompted rant on how poor (and he didn't use the word 'poor') the Apple keyboard was on his recent podcast (3rd most popular podcast in the world http://www.itunescharts.net/us/charts/podcasts/ http://www.itunescharts.net/us/charts/podcasts/). The keyboard affects anyone who types. It's not a niche group of obsessives at all.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted. Rogan is a good proxy of Hollywood creatives, which in turn has an enormous impact on how often Macs show up as default movie props.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Isn’t a better “proxy” for how well the Mac is doing reported sales numbers?
    - tkxxx7 8y ago
      Have you seen reported sales numbers specifically for Hollywood creatives? Will you ever?
  - coldseattle 8y ago
    Apple sends hardware to movie production companies. They’ve been doing this for years.
    - fortythirteen 8y ago
      There's a big difference between the AfterEffects guys and the writers. Rogan's complaints were as someone whose career requires massive amounts of writing and understandably wants a keyboard to have feedback. I'm in complete agreement with him. In their obsession to make the thing thinner and fancier they have rendered it less usable. They've locked themselves into a marketing pattern that precludes them from having a "if it ain't broke" mindset.
_bxg1 8y ago
The Macbook Pro has been the go-to software developer machine for years now, and that segment is seeing a massive exodus after the touch bar launch. I don't know how big a percentage that is of total sales, but it can't just be a trivial niche.
- scarface74 8y ago
  With all of the (deserved) internet outrage about the MacBook Pro, Apple’s sales of Macs aren’t showing thier direction is the wrong one. That being said, for a personal development machine, I would much rather have a 27 inch 5K iMac with the same specs. Work provides me a decent laptop.
  - graeme 8y ago
    It's hard to tell from the data. Sales should perhaps have been higher. The macbook pro hadn't been refreshed for a bit in late 2016. Me and some other pro users were insta-buys for the new machines. But then they had few ports and no function keys. We're still on 2015 machines. I'm holding out for the mac pro, but I would have bought 1-2 macbook pros if they had been suitable.
- tvcgrid 8y ago
  Is there a real, large exodus though? I don’t notice that, anecdotally, but others seem to (seemingly anecdotally too). Are there data about it? For the segment that are “professionals” or for work use, for example? At least broadly, 3Q saw Mac sales decline 7.5 percent YOY. But, the whole PC industry declined. So, I’m not sure what conclusions to draw — and in the absence of that it seems a bit hard to swing either way in claims. Know any other data?
  - dorfsmay 8y ago
    I have no data, and I personally use Linux and track point equipped machines, but my observation is Mac fans paying for their computers with their own money are not buying the new macs. I suspect that the sales number are reflecting corporate sales. I think Apple should remember that it is people from the former group who have managed to arm-twist corporations to look at non-Windows machines, that and the slow rise of Linux acceptance in more and more companies should make them listen to people who don't want Windows want.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
You say that but it's the vocal but happy 10% that can sway the 90% to buy it. Mac wouldn't have been as big as it is today without its fans. The ones that complain are your best customers, because the ones that don't just walk away without giving you feedback as to why they walk away. The 90% is too indifferent to speak up.
- Puer 8y ago
  You're greatly overestimating the tech community's importance. The average person doesn't need any swaying to buy Apple products.
  - walterbell 8y ago
    See “leading” vs “trailing” indicators.
  - baq 8y ago
    that's how it is now but it didn't happen overnight and without a reason.
  - nojvek 8y ago
    I’d be willing to bet a big part of the base that buy the MacBook pros are the creatives. Most consumer consumers are happy with iPhones and iPads. As someone who was a massive fan of Apple MacBooks and recommended them to other people, I don’t do that now. I highly unrecommend them nowadays. I’ve personally in fact bought older second MacBooks since they last longer and work better than the new ones. So it slowly adds up. Microsoft surface is already making a good dent in what was a loyal Mac Pro market.
  - jimbokun 8y ago
    A lot of people ask techie friends for advice on what computer to buy. As argued by Paul Graham: "So what, the business world may say. Who cares if hackers like Apple again? How big is the hacker market, after all? Quite small, but important out of proportion to its size. When it comes to computers, what hackers are doing now, everyone will be doing in ten years. Almost all technology, from Unix to bitmapped displays to the Web, became popular first within CS departments and research labs, and gradually spread to the rest of the world." http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html
jetsnoc 8y ago
In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?: > Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and test environments easier than before. What we want is a functional keyboard. They are losing this market-share quickly but you're right maybe they don't care about this market anymore. They must not since they aren't doing anything about it.
- TheRealWatson 8y ago
  Right. But it doesn't say developers are the majority of MBP users.
  - peeters 8y ago
    Then make it an option, or risk losing the segment. When my company gave me a 2015 MBP I was really impressed with it, it seemed like the perfect hardware. I knew when I upgraded my personal laptop it'd be a Macbook Pro. Then they started handing out post-2015 MBP to others and so I've used them a bit. There is zero chance now that a MBP will be my next laptop.
  - maxsilver 8y ago
    People who want functional keyboards is the majority of MBP users. Even non-technical blogs like The Verge and The Outline are complaining about major failures with the keyboards. This problem isn't developer-specific in any way.
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  The niche is not developers themselves; the niche is a (vocal) sample of the developer community. I'm a developer and I like the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard with touchbar. In particular: What we want is a functional keyboard. This is your opinion, but it's not necessarily the majority opinion. For example, I would rather Apple focus on other parts of the computer than the keyboard. The keyboard just isn't that meaningful to me, and I'm just as productive a developer without whatever platonic ideal of a keyboard Apple could put on the thing. I think a lot of people vastly overestimate the number of Apple customers who have an opinion about this, because it's relatively easy to see complaints on HN, blogs or tech journalism.
gurkendoktor 8y ago
Internet hearsay (Apple store/reseller staff quoted in podcasts etc.) often mentions that the MacBook Air is (was?) their best-selling laptop. It has no TouchBar, more keyboard travel, a smaller trackpad, arguably more useful ports, and longer battery life. If the trade-offs in the latest MacBook Pro were universally loved, why wouldn't they spread into Apple's other, more popular product lines? I honestly don't see how their current laptop line-up makes any sense for consumers (and shareholders). If the TouchBar really makes it easier for non-nerds to find shortcuts, why only offer it in high-end laptops?
- berberous 8y ago
  The Air is their best-selling laptop because: (1) it's by far the cheapest and (2) it's tiny. It's also extremely outdated -- people universally love the retina screen but the Air doesn't have that either. Also, rumor has it the Air is being replaced this fall, so we won't see what features make it downstream until then. The above is to disagree with all of your specific arguments, but I do not disagree with your implied conclusion -- I don't think the touch bar is universally loved. I suspect most consumers do not care about it one way or the other, and I think it was a mistake that Apple should kill.
  - gurkendoktor 8y ago
    Fair enough. In any case, the MacBook Pro hasn't been Apple's laptop for the masses in a long time, unlike what r0fl implied. We can't infer from its design what 90% of customers want.
- EthanHeilman 8y ago
  >If the TouchBar really makes it easier for non-nerds to find shortcuts, why only offer it in the top-end laptops? Maybe it helps the laptop feel more highend/luxury?
  - mancerayder 8y ago
    ... but the DJ in the video can slide the volume up and down with his finger. Surely that counts for something big.
bitwize 8y ago
Most of Apple's shareholder value these days comes from the fucking iPhone and iPad. They won't be terribly hurt by switching back. This is purely marketroid-driven product design, and if it keeps up it'll bust Apple back down to also-ran status. (Not that Jobs wasn't a Dire Marketroid himself, but at least he knew that practical and functional sells better in the long run than snazzy but busted.)
- chatmasta 8y ago
  And who builds the apps?
yesimahuman 8y ago
I'm starting to question how "niche" the creator/developer market actually is
p49k 8y ago
I don’t necessarily agree that it’s what most people want. I think the reason that most people keep buying macs is because of MacOS. It is so nice to have a UNIX-based OS with great UI, so we keep buying the overpriced, out-of-date, defective laptops because we have no other choice. I’m convinced that a solid, secure, reliable and polished Unix-based OS for developers would quickly wipe out a large segment of Apple’s market share.
- mancerayder 8y ago
  I think that's right. Our only two options are the Linux desktop with its high-maintenance potential of timesink, and Windows that, while it has improved, suffers from an authoritarian approach to things like reboots, updates, ability to customize and so forth. I use Windows 10 + MobaXTerm after moving off of the increasingly annoying MacBook design choices. But there's something far worse: killer apps (for some professionals and hobbyists) only exist for Mac OSX and Windows. I'm looking at you, Adobe.
  - terminalcommand 8y ago
    Linux has improved a lot in the last couple of years. Even on state-of-the-art hardware you can expect reasonable support if you choose a distro that uses a recent kernel (ie. Manjaro instead of stock debian). I've been using a 8th gen computer for a year and I haven't had any problems. On the contrary the hevc hardware decoder/encoder works on linux, but I couldn't get it to work on Windows. On the other hand Windows looks more polished than KDE and GNOME.
    - ben-schaaf 8y ago
      Having recently built an AMD gaming rig and bought a Aero 15 laptop with the latest 8th gen chip and installed the latest Ubuntu on both, not everything works out of the box (sensors and discrete graphics specifically), but both machines did everything I asked of them.
- octorian 8y ago
  I've long felt that the greatest threat to Linux on the desktop (for the past ~15 years) has been OSX, not Windows. We all want a solid and reliable UNIX-based OS, but we also want an OS that won't be treated as a bastard child by hardware and software vendors. As much as we all love the world of free software, sometimes we actually do want/need to use commercial software as well. Apple has given us what we fundamentally want, so we just put up with all the baggage that comes along with it. After all, what else are we going to do? Use Windows?
394549 8y ago
>> Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? No touchbar, smaller touchpad than the newer macbooks, but updated specs? Call it Macbook Developer... We build the software for the "Pros" after all. > They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. What's your basis for saying that, besides the assumption that Apple can't be wrong, so whatever it's doing must be what people actually want? Apple has a habit of designing from an ivory tower and not admitting to its mistakes. I would say it's arguable that their design priorities are currently out of whack: chasing thinness when you're going from 1.5in to 0.75in is one thing, it's quite another when you're going from 18mm to 15mm. It may not be a fatal mistake for them, but it's evidence that they may longer deserve the design deference they've traditionally gotten. > Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value. Many of those changes could be characterized as pointless sidegrades: merely change for change's sake.
chatmasta 8y ago
It’s a pretty important “niche” of customers though, since 100% of Apple’s App Store revenue is derived from apps built by users in that “niche”...
- scarface74 8y ago
  And users in that "niche" would build those apps using Macs whether it was their preference or not if the money was in it.
mbesto 8y ago
> They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. > Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products So either you're wrong, or Apple's PR team is really bad positioning their product. From the Press Release itself in the first few paragraphs: ideal for manipulating large data sets, performing complex simulations, creating multi-track audio projects or doing advanced image processing or film editing. Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and test environments easier than before. MacBook Pro now delivers faster performance for complex simulations and data manipulation. With the new MacBook Pro, developers can compile code faster and more easily run multiple virtual machines and test environments. Aren't those all features described exactly for the "niche developer/macrumors posters"?!
- SPBS 8y ago
  They trumpet those features only because it doesn't conflict with their MacBook Pro aesthetic that's meant to appeal the the wider audience. Given a choice between a sexy MacBook Pro design and a pro-developer feature, Apple will choose the sexy design everytime.
- munchbunny 8y ago
  Yes and no. Yes in the sense that those niche developer/macrumors posters are part of the described target audience, but no in the sense that they are a small fraction of the described target audience.
- gervase 8y ago
  I believe this is a case of a disparity between who they say their products are for (power users), and who they are actually for (people who want to think of themselves as power users). This would be similar to, for example, many sportswear brands who say they are for professional athletes, but whose primary consumer base is... not. In both cases, they may still attract the audience they claim to target, but in practice, that niche market makes up only a small fraction of their total sales.
  - rbanffy 8y ago
tolmasky 8y ago
> The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints. I was very happy with every single MacBook Air since I had one (which I think might have been 3rd generation?), and in fact purchased every single MacBook Air thereafter. People really liked the original Retina MacBook Pros. This idea that these Pro customers who regularly spend $3,000 on their computers are a fickle whiny bunch who are never happy about anything and have always found something to be upset about is complete fantasy and ignores the reality of an actual degradation in quality. We didn't just imagine the extension of the warranty on MacBook Pros with butterfly keyboards: Apple had to take action because the computers were ACTUALLY BREAKING. I own one of these, my t key ACTUALLY FELL OFF. I'm not just trying to come up with arbitrary reasons to hate on Apple, the "t" key is not some ivory tower feature only some 10% niche care about, this is a serious quality problem. No one is saying they shouldn't innovate and come up with gimmicks to sell new computers. In fact, the T2 gimmick might be perfect: they get to tell "the common user" that the computer now runs Siri without compromising existing behavior -- brilliant! Compare this to the Touch Bar, which while flashy infuriates me every single day as I repeatedly mute and unmute my computer as my pinky brushes the touch bar so delicately I don't even register the feeling on my finger.
- interestica 8y ago
  Ugh. A problem? No. Everyone can go on fine never using such a dumb key. Simply avoid. Move on. Adap...t. /S
  - distortedsignal 8y ago
    hink differen
anthonybsd 8y ago
>The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. That's not entirely accurate. The original 15 inch Retina Macbook Pro is an ideal laptop as far as I'm concerned. I'm still holding on to mine for home use. It was extremely well received in development communities at the time of release. On the other hand I have 2017 Touchbar Pro from work and it's horrendous for undocked use, borderline unusable.
brokentone 8y ago
Apple has notoriously aggressively focused on a future-facing scalable way. I.e. where they see enough of the market in say 5 years (i.e. firewire, USB-C). However, they have been wrong before, AND I don't think anyone can argue that they aren't focusing on non-mobile hardware right now. While it's easy to say "just trust apple, they're doing it for the shareholders," I think it's also fair to say that they're losing their touch in this venue. It used to be the only reason you didn't buy a Mac for pro creative-type work was the price. Now there are many great reasons from ergonomics to computing power.
skofgar 8y ago
I actually like the Touchbar MacBook Pros'. Including the keyboard. I love how small they are and how all the plugs are the "same" :) I use it as my home-notebook and iOS development.
- madis 8y ago
  You are funny. I like :D
mtgx 8y ago
The 10% are the "word of mouthers" (evangelists) that influence the other 90%. Apple isn't where it is today because of TV advertising. It's where it is because of brand advocates like the people who are now complaining about the new products.
batteryhorse 8y ago
That niche of developer/macrumors posters USED to be happy with everything Apple did. Under Steve Jobs, it seemed like Macbooks got cheaper every year, with more value. Now, every year the price goes up, but less value.
jayd16 8y ago
You can tell no one is clamoring for those features because they're not getting copy-catted. No one wants that touchbar and Apple themselves just replaced the keyboard so to say its what consumers want is just pure fantasy. There's no data yet. Maybe they'll want this new keyboard but you're assuming anything Apple does is what the consumer wants.
aeriklawson 8y ago
> They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Bingo. Most people on this site don't realize they are in the minority.
jdietrich 8y ago
Look at the iPhone SE. For customers who prefer a compact form-factor at a low price point, Apple still make a phone with the body of an iPhone 5 and the guts of an iPhone 6s. It's a niche product, but an important part of the line-up. "Old chassis, new internals" is a standard part of the Apple playbook. Mac sales represent an almost irrelevant part of Apple's revenues, but they're a vital part of the overall Apple ecosystem. Apple still have the tooling for the 2015 Macbook Pro. The NRE costs to put a modern processor in that chassis would be relatively modes, because it's a much larger chassis with a more straightforward thermal design. The market for such a machine might not be large, but it's extremely important for the health of their ecosystem, because developers developers developers. Personally, I think that the post-Jobs Apple has developed a nasty case of cargo cultism. Obsessive focus on the user experience has transmuted into obsessive focus on arbitrary design goals - thinner, lighter, fewer ports. They're making record profits thanks to the huge margins on iPhones and the strong vendor lock-in on iOS, but they're burning the goodwill that kept them alive during the lean years. If Apple can't find a way to delight customers rather than frustrate them, they're facing a serious long-term problem.
l3xical 8y ago
Developers are influencers. Lots of people I know ask me what kind of laptop they should get. For normal humans, having a card slot and being able to use old chargers and accessories is a real consideration. If you can’t reuse that stuff anyway, then fenestrating may become less distasteful.
bborud 8y ago
Then they'd be wrong. You focus on the 5% of people who tell the 95% others what to think. And you don't ask people what they think, you observe their behavior and hope you can make sense of it. People have no fucking clue what they want. You would have to be insane to ask people for their _opinions_ and expect something you can work with.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
drb91 8y ago
How do you know what consumers want without offering choice?

by r0fl 8y ago

bunderbunder 8y ago

> The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Haven't done a survey, but quite a few folks I know who work at Mac shops report that their employers have been steering clear of the new MacBooks and just trying to keep the older models they already have alive, while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. Making the keyboard reliable would help, but that touchbar is also a legitimate ergonomic concern for anyone who uses software that requires you to be banging on F-keys all day.

dvtrn 8y ago
>while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. This is ultimately what I ended up having to do; not really by choice. My 2015 MBP was stolen, considered looking for a refurb model but found myself test driving an HP Spectre x360-a minute with the keyboard, another few minutes Googling linux driver support on my phone and some other specs. I was walking out the door with the new purchase 15 minutes later. It's been a couple of days now, I still haven't gotten around to throwing *nix at it, but for a majority of purposes WSL is getting me by pretty nicely enough. A few days of getting a fresh Windows installation and ridding myself of all that retail bloatware, I'm actually not having a bad time with Windows 10 given it's the first time I've dailied a windows machine since XPSP1. That's how far I'm going to avoid the new mbp because key input means that much to me-given how much time I spend in text fields, but this is a really enjoyable machine so far. After 3 years though my eyes definitely got used to the retina display, and this screen just can't match the color variation or the deep darks-then again it also may be the high gloss touch screen.
- chx 8y ago
  I wrote up some tips on how to make Windows 10 more palatable for a Linux user. https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Windows-10-(coming-from-Linux) https://github.com/chx/chx.github.io/wiki/How-I-set-up-my-Wi...
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    Good god almighty that easy window dragging is getting installed right tf now. Thanks for putting this list together!
fortythirteen 8y ago
I'm being forced into an timed upgrade by corporate and I couldn't be unhappier. If some of the extraneous software needed to work in the environment wasn't Mac/Windows only, I'd request a hi-res Thinkpad and throw Linux on it. Even my ~2010 iMac at home runs Ubuntu.
- bscphil 8y ago
  You might consider running Windows virtualized. About 5 years ago it was still a little janky and slow. These days those problems are mostly non-existent. I run heavy Adobe applications through VirtualBox and can't tell any difference from native speeds, even on my older laptop.
bigpeopleareold 8y ago
Maybe 2019 will be the year of the Linux desktop? :)
- octorian 8y ago
  Every time one of the big boys screws up, we all hope for this. Then the relevant players in the Linux community fail to get their shit together and the cycle repeats itself.
  - dj-wonk 8y ago
    In your view, what would it take for the big players to "get their [act] together"? I'd like to hear a bit more of how you see it. What players would need to work together or coordinate? What are some more-or-less realistic paths forward?
    - octorian 8y ago
      First, they'd need to have a willingness to license "encumbered" codecs, drivers, etc, even if it meant charging for a version of their product. Second, it would involve a ton of product testing, and tedious ironing out of rough edges. Every single time an installation or upgrade fails, or runs into a strange error needing obscure forum searches to fix it, that's a problem. Third, they'd have to seriously cozy up to proprietary software vendors for application support. This one is unfortunately an endless time and money sink, and can't pay off until they have enough users that they don't need to do it anymore. Thankfully F/OSS options provide some limits on this, but not entirely. Many times there are F/OSS options that are usable, but the proprietary ones are better (and worth paying for). This is just a few thoughts off the top of my head. Its not well researched or thought out, but a starting point for a conversation.
      - skgoa 8y ago
        I think you are spot on. These are such a huge issues that keep most people away from Linux. The perpetual denial of these issues is a ridiculously huge blind spot in the Linux comunity.
rbanffy 8y ago
> trying to keep the older models they already have alive It's not a bad move - if you can maximize the return on DisplayPort monitors, USB keyboards, HDMI cables and MagSafe chargers, it makes sense. Keep in mind the company will eventually have to move to USB-C, as the MacBook Air is the only remaining MagSafe laptop and I won't bet on its longevity. OTOH, the old-style MBPs are enough for most uses, as are the Air for anyone who can live within 8GB.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  > the company will eventually have to move to USB-C Not necessarily. A minority of machines are Macs, and I wouldn't be surprised if not wanting to deal with the whole USB-C thing right now is yet another incentive for IT to be interested in ditching Apple.
  - rbanffy 8y ago
    If you have a substantial investment in MagSafe chargers, my bet is that you are a Mac shop already. USB-C is unavoidable.
mullingitover 8y ago
> a few folks I know who work at Mac shops report that their employers have been steering clear of the new MacBooks My office is a great example of this. Hundreds of developers here, and I've seen exactly one of the touchbar MBPs in the office. The CIO hates them with a passion, and nobody's demanding them, so it's 2014/2015 MBPs for everyone. There are a lot of Airs, too, but I've seen zero Macbooks.
- threeseed 8y ago
  My office has hundreds of developers as well. We have about 20% of people with 2017 MacBook Pros, including, myself.

neya 8y ago

This is speculation at best, not a fact. There's no data to indicate that developers aren't the 90% customers.

endorphone 8y ago

The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does The "niche developer/macrumors posters" were extremely happy with it before, and were hearty advocates of it. Further, I would say that developers/enthusiasts comprise a very high percentage of macbook purchasers.

Kurtz79 8y ago
"Further, I would say that developers/enthusiasts comprise a very high percentage of macbook purchasers." And you base this assumption on? Every action from Apple in these last few years have gone towards the wishes of the average developer/enthusiast. Worse keyboards, useless gimmicks, gimped CPUs, fewer ports, less repairability/configurability. If they consider developers/enthusiasts as their main audience, they have a really weird way of catering to them. And since Mac sales have been at least steady over the last years, developers/enthusiasts have a really weird way of showing their discontent. https://bgr.com/2018/01/14/mac-sales-2017-marketshare-pc-decline/ https://bgr.com/2018/01/14/mac-sales-2017-marketshare-pc-dec...
- endorphone 8y ago
  I base it on the fact that among developers it is an extraordinarily popular laptop, and that there are a shitload more developers than most people seem to estimate. We are a pretty large "niche" nowadays. I have a Lenova Yoga 720 and I am almost always the single non Macbook user in any developer group. "developers/enthusiasts have a really weird way of showing their discontent" If you want to use xcode, you have no choice[1]. If you're in the ecosystem, you have no choice. So you complain about it and hope they change it the next time around. [1]-I remote desktop to my desktop, but eh.
  - Kurtz79 8y ago
    My point is that there is a much larger audience outside of our own "niche". The fact that we see a lot of developers with Macs, does not mean that they are a large audience among all of the Mac users. My brother works at an Apple shop, and the vast majority of people he has to attend come from all walks of life, they are not developers/enthusiasts.

nailer 8y ago

> The niche developer/macrumors posters It's not just developers and MacRumors posters. Joe Rogan - the comedian and MMA commentator - did a massive unprompted rant on how poor (and he didn't use the word 'poor') the Apple keyboard was on his recent podcast (3rd most popular podcast in the world http://www.itunescharts.net/us/charts/podcasts/ http://www.itunescharts.net/us/charts/podcasts/). The keyboard affects anyone who types. It's not a niche group of obsessives at all.

thanatropism 8y ago
I don't know why you're being downvoted. Rogan is a good proxy of Hollywood creatives, which in turn has an enormous impact on how often Macs show up as default movie props.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Isn’t a better “proxy” for how well the Mac is doing reported sales numbers?
  - tkxxx7 8y ago
    Have you seen reported sales numbers specifically for Hollywood creatives? Will you ever?
- coldseattle 8y ago
  Apple sends hardware to movie production companies. They’ve been doing this for years.
  - fortythirteen 8y ago
    There's a big difference between the AfterEffects guys and the writers. Rogan's complaints were as someone whose career requires massive amounts of writing and understandably wants a keyboard to have feedback. I'm in complete agreement with him. In their obsession to make the thing thinner and fancier they have rendered it less usable. They've locked themselves into a marketing pattern that precludes them from having a "if it ain't broke" mindset.

_bxg1 8y ago

The Macbook Pro has been the go-to software developer machine for years now, and that segment is seeing a massive exodus after the touch bar launch. I don't know how big a percentage that is of total sales, but it can't just be a trivial niche.

scarface74 8y ago
With all of the (deserved) internet outrage about the MacBook Pro, Apple’s sales of Macs aren’t showing thier direction is the wrong one. That being said, for a personal development machine, I would much rather have a 27 inch 5K iMac with the same specs. Work provides me a decent laptop.
- graeme 8y ago
  It's hard to tell from the data. Sales should perhaps have been higher. The macbook pro hadn't been refreshed for a bit in late 2016. Me and some other pro users were insta-buys for the new machines. But then they had few ports and no function keys. We're still on 2015 machines. I'm holding out for the mac pro, but I would have bought 1-2 macbook pros if they had been suitable.
tvcgrid 8y ago
Is there a real, large exodus though? I don’t notice that, anecdotally, but others seem to (seemingly anecdotally too). Are there data about it? For the segment that are “professionals” or for work use, for example? At least broadly, 3Q saw Mac sales decline 7.5 percent YOY. But, the whole PC industry declined. So, I’m not sure what conclusions to draw — and in the absence of that it seems a bit hard to swing either way in claims. Know any other data?
- dorfsmay 8y ago
  I have no data, and I personally use Linux and track point equipped machines, but my observation is Mac fans paying for their computers with their own money are not buying the new macs. I suspect that the sales number are reflecting corporate sales. I think Apple should remember that it is people from the former group who have managed to arm-twist corporations to look at non-Windows machines, that and the slow rise of Linux acceptance in more and more companies should make them listen to people who don't want Windows want.

Cthulhu_ 8y ago

You say that but it's the vocal but happy 10% that can sway the 90% to buy it. Mac wouldn't have been as big as it is today without its fans. The ones that complain are your best customers, because the ones that don't just walk away without giving you feedback as to why they walk away. The 90% is too indifferent to speak up.

Puer 8y ago
You're greatly overestimating the tech community's importance. The average person doesn't need any swaying to buy Apple products.
- walterbell 8y ago
  See “leading” vs “trailing” indicators.
- baq 8y ago
  that's how it is now but it didn't happen overnight and without a reason.
- nojvek 8y ago
  I’d be willing to bet a big part of the base that buy the MacBook pros are the creatives. Most consumer consumers are happy with iPhones and iPads. As someone who was a massive fan of Apple MacBooks and recommended them to other people, I don’t do that now. I highly unrecommend them nowadays. I’ve personally in fact bought older second MacBooks since they last longer and work better than the new ones. So it slowly adds up. Microsoft surface is already making a good dent in what was a loyal Mac Pro market.
- jimbokun 8y ago
  A lot of people ask techie friends for advice on what computer to buy. As argued by Paul Graham: "So what, the business world may say. Who cares if hackers like Apple again? How big is the hacker market, after all? Quite small, but important out of proportion to its size. When it comes to computers, what hackers are doing now, everyone will be doing in ten years. Almost all technology, from Unix to bitmapped displays to the Web, became popular first within CS departments and research labs, and gradually spread to the rest of the world." http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html

jetsnoc 8y ago

In the article they cite the MBP as being the most popular notebook for developers so this niche must be important, otherwise why list it?: > Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and test environments easier than before. What we want is a functional keyboard. They are losing this market-share quickly but you're right maybe they don't care about this market anymore. They must not since they aren't doing anything about it.

TheRealWatson 8y ago
Right. But it doesn't say developers are the majority of MBP users.
- peeters 8y ago
  Then make it an option, or risk losing the segment. When my company gave me a 2015 MBP I was really impressed with it, it seemed like the perfect hardware. I knew when I upgraded my personal laptop it'd be a Macbook Pro. Then they started handing out post-2015 MBP to others and so I've used them a bit. There is zero chance now that a MBP will be my next laptop.
- maxsilver 8y ago
  People who want functional keyboards is the majority of MBP users. Even non-technical blogs like The Verge and The Outline are complaining about major failures with the keyboards. This problem isn't developer-specific in any way.
throwawaymath 8y ago
The niche is not developers themselves; the niche is a (vocal) sample of the developer community. I'm a developer and I like the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard with touchbar. In particular: What we want is a functional keyboard. This is your opinion, but it's not necessarily the majority opinion. For example, I would rather Apple focus on other parts of the computer than the keyboard. The keyboard just isn't that meaningful to me, and I'm just as productive a developer without whatever platonic ideal of a keyboard Apple could put on the thing. I think a lot of people vastly overestimate the number of Apple customers who have an opinion about this, because it's relatively easy to see complaints on HN, blogs or tech journalism.

gurkendoktor 8y ago

Internet hearsay (Apple store/reseller staff quoted in podcasts etc.) often mentions that the MacBook Air is (was?) their best-selling laptop. It has no TouchBar, more keyboard travel, a smaller trackpad, arguably more useful ports, and longer battery life. If the trade-offs in the latest MacBook Pro were universally loved, why wouldn't they spread into Apple's other, more popular product lines? I honestly don't see how their current laptop line-up makes any sense for consumers (and shareholders). If the TouchBar really makes it easier for non-nerds to find shortcuts, why only offer it in high-end laptops?

berberous 8y ago
The Air is their best-selling laptop because: (1) it's by far the cheapest and (2) it's tiny. It's also extremely outdated -- people universally love the retina screen but the Air doesn't have that either. Also, rumor has it the Air is being replaced this fall, so we won't see what features make it downstream until then. The above is to disagree with all of your specific arguments, but I do not disagree with your implied conclusion -- I don't think the touch bar is universally loved. I suspect most consumers do not care about it one way or the other, and I think it was a mistake that Apple should kill.
- gurkendoktor 8y ago
  Fair enough. In any case, the MacBook Pro hasn't been Apple's laptop for the masses in a long time, unlike what r0fl implied. We can't infer from its design what 90% of customers want.
EthanHeilman 8y ago
>If the TouchBar really makes it easier for non-nerds to find shortcuts, why only offer it in the top-end laptops? Maybe it helps the laptop feel more highend/luxury?
- mancerayder 8y ago
  ... but the DJ in the video can slide the volume up and down with his finger. Surely that counts for something big.

bitwize 8y ago

Most of Apple's shareholder value these days comes from the fucking iPhone and iPad. They won't be terribly hurt by switching back. This is purely marketroid-driven product design, and if it keeps up it'll bust Apple back down to also-ran status. (Not that Jobs wasn't a Dire Marketroid himself, but at least he knew that practical and functional sells better in the long run than snazzy but busted.)

chatmasta 8y ago
And who builds the apps?

yesimahuman 8y ago

I'm starting to question how "niche" the creator/developer market actually is

p49k 8y ago

I don’t necessarily agree that it’s what most people want. I think the reason that most people keep buying macs is because of MacOS. It is so nice to have a UNIX-based OS with great UI, so we keep buying the overpriced, out-of-date, defective laptops because we have no other choice. I’m convinced that a solid, secure, reliable and polished Unix-based OS for developers would quickly wipe out a large segment of Apple’s market share.

mancerayder 8y ago
I think that's right. Our only two options are the Linux desktop with its high-maintenance potential of timesink, and Windows that, while it has improved, suffers from an authoritarian approach to things like reboots, updates, ability to customize and so forth. I use Windows 10 + MobaXTerm after moving off of the increasingly annoying MacBook design choices. But there's something far worse: killer apps (for some professionals and hobbyists) only exist for Mac OSX and Windows. I'm looking at you, Adobe.
- terminalcommand 8y ago
  Linux has improved a lot in the last couple of years. Even on state-of-the-art hardware you can expect reasonable support if you choose a distro that uses a recent kernel (ie. Manjaro instead of stock debian). I've been using a 8th gen computer for a year and I haven't had any problems. On the contrary the hevc hardware decoder/encoder works on linux, but I couldn't get it to work on Windows. On the other hand Windows looks more polished than KDE and GNOME.
  - ben-schaaf 8y ago
    Having recently built an AMD gaming rig and bought a Aero 15 laptop with the latest 8th gen chip and installed the latest Ubuntu on both, not everything works out of the box (sensors and discrete graphics specifically), but both machines did everything I asked of them.
octorian 8y ago
I've long felt that the greatest threat to Linux on the desktop (for the past ~15 years) has been OSX, not Windows. We all want a solid and reliable UNIX-based OS, but we also want an OS that won't be treated as a bastard child by hardware and software vendors. As much as we all love the world of free software, sometimes we actually do want/need to use commercial software as well. Apple has given us what we fundamentally want, so we just put up with all the baggage that comes along with it. After all, what else are we going to do? Use Windows?

394549 8y ago

>> Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? No touchbar, smaller touchpad than the newer macbooks, but updated specs? Call it Macbook Developer... We build the software for the "Pros" after all. > They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. What's your basis for saying that, besides the assumption that Apple can't be wrong, so whatever it's doing must be what people actually want? Apple has a habit of designing from an ivory tower and not admitting to its mistakes. I would say it's arguable that their design priorities are currently out of whack: chasing thinness when you're going from 1.5in to 0.75in is one thing, it's quite another when you're going from 18mm to 15mm. It may not be a fatal mistake for them, but it's evidence that they may longer deserve the design deference they've traditionally gotten. > Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value. Many of those changes could be characterized as pointless sidegrades: merely change for change's sake.

chatmasta 8y ago

It’s a pretty important “niche” of customers though, since 100% of Apple’s App Store revenue is derived from apps built by users in that “niche”...

scarface74 8y ago
And users in that "niche" would build those apps using Macs whether it was their preference or not if the money was in it.

mbesto 8y ago

> They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. > Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products So either you're wrong, or Apple's PR team is really bad positioning their product. From the Press Release itself in the first few paragraphs: ideal for manipulating large data sets, performing complex simulations, creating multi-track audio projects or doing advanced image processing or film editing. Already the most popular notebook for developers around the world, the new MacBook Pro can compile code faster and run multiple virtual machines and test environments easier than before. MacBook Pro now delivers faster performance for complex simulations and data manipulation. With the new MacBook Pro, developers can compile code faster and more easily run multiple virtual machines and test environments. Aren't those all features described exactly for the "niche developer/macrumors posters"?!

SPBS 8y ago
They trumpet those features only because it doesn't conflict with their MacBook Pro aesthetic that's meant to appeal the the wider audience. Given a choice between a sexy MacBook Pro design and a pro-developer feature, Apple will choose the sexy design everytime.
munchbunny 8y ago
Yes and no. Yes in the sense that those niche developer/macrumors posters are part of the described target audience, but no in the sense that they are a small fraction of the described target audience.
gervase 8y ago
I believe this is a case of a disparity between who they say their products are for (power users), and who they are actually for (people who want to think of themselves as power users). This would be similar to, for example, many sportswear brands who say they are for professional athletes, but whose primary consumer base is... not. In both cases, they may still attract the audience they claim to target, but in practice, that niche market makes up only a small fraction of their total sales.
- rbanffy 8y ago

tolmasky 8y ago

> The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints. I was very happy with every single MacBook Air since I had one (which I think might have been 3rd generation?), and in fact purchased every single MacBook Air thereafter. People really liked the original Retina MacBook Pros. This idea that these Pro customers who regularly spend $3,000 on their computers are a fickle whiny bunch who are never happy about anything and have always found something to be upset about is complete fantasy and ignores the reality of an actual degradation in quality. We didn't just imagine the extension of the warranty on MacBook Pros with butterfly keyboards: Apple had to take action because the computers were ACTUALLY BREAKING. I own one of these, my t key ACTUALLY FELL OFF. I'm not just trying to come up with arbitrary reasons to hate on Apple, the "t" key is not some ivory tower feature only some 10% niche care about, this is a serious quality problem. No one is saying they shouldn't innovate and come up with gimmicks to sell new computers. In fact, the T2 gimmick might be perfect: they get to tell "the common user" that the computer now runs Siri without compromising existing behavior -- brilliant! Compare this to the Touch Bar, which while flashy infuriates me every single day as I repeatedly mute and unmute my computer as my pinky brushes the touch bar so delicately I don't even register the feeling on my finger.

interestica 8y ago
Ugh. A problem? No. Everyone can go on fine never using such a dumb key. Simply avoid. Move on. Adap...t. /S
- distortedsignal 8y ago
  hink differen

anthonybsd 8y ago

>The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. That's not entirely accurate. The original 15 inch Retina Macbook Pro is an ideal laptop as far as I'm concerned. I'm still holding on to mine for home use. It was extremely well received in development communities at the time of release. On the other hand I have 2017 Touchbar Pro from work and it's horrendous for undocked use, borderline unusable.

brokentone 8y ago

Apple has notoriously aggressively focused on a future-facing scalable way. I.e. where they see enough of the market in say 5 years (i.e. firewire, USB-C). However, they have been wrong before, AND I don't think anyone can argue that they aren't focusing on non-mobile hardware right now. While it's easy to say "just trust apple, they're doing it for the shareholders," I think it's also fair to say that they're losing their touch in this venue. It used to be the only reason you didn't buy a Mac for pro creative-type work was the price. Now there are many great reasons from ergonomics to computing power.

skofgar 8y ago

I actually like the Touchbar MacBook Pros'. Including the keyboard. I love how small they are and how all the plugs are the "same" :) I use it as my home-notebook and iOS development.

madis 8y ago
You are funny. I like :D

mtgx 8y ago

The 10% are the "word of mouthers" (evangelists) that influence the other 90%. Apple isn't where it is today because of TV advertising. It's where it is because of brand advocates like the people who are now complaining about the new products.

batteryhorse 8y ago

That niche of developer/macrumors posters USED to be happy with everything Apple did. Under Steve Jobs, it seemed like Macbooks got cheaper every year, with more value. Now, every year the price goes up, but less value.

jayd16 8y ago

You can tell no one is clamoring for those features because they're not getting copy-catted. No one wants that touchbar and Apple themselves just replaced the keyboard so to say its what consumers want is just pure fantasy. There's no data yet. Maybe they'll want this new keyboard but you're assuming anything Apple does is what the consumer wants.

aeriklawson 8y ago

> They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Bingo. Most people on this site don't realize they are in the minority.

jdietrich 8y ago

Look at the iPhone SE. For customers who prefer a compact form-factor at a low price point, Apple still make a phone with the body of an iPhone 5 and the guts of an iPhone 6s. It's a niche product, but an important part of the line-up. "Old chassis, new internals" is a standard part of the Apple playbook. Mac sales represent an almost irrelevant part of Apple's revenues, but they're a vital part of the overall Apple ecosystem. Apple still have the tooling for the 2015 Macbook Pro. The NRE costs to put a modern processor in that chassis would be relatively modes, because it's a much larger chassis with a more straightforward thermal design. The market for such a machine might not be large, but it's extremely important for the health of their ecosystem, because developers developers developers. Personally, I think that the post-Jobs Apple has developed a nasty case of cargo cultism. Obsessive focus on the user experience has transmuted into obsessive focus on arbitrary design goals - thinner, lighter, fewer ports. They're making record profits thanks to the huge margins on iPhones and the strong vendor lock-in on iOS, but they're burning the goodwill that kept them alive during the lean years. If Apple can't find a way to delight customers rather than frustrate them, they're facing a serious long-term problem.

l3xical 8y ago

Developers are influencers. Lots of people I know ask me what kind of laptop they should get. For normal humans, having a card slot and being able to use old chargers and accessories is a real consideration. If you can’t reuse that stuff anyway, then fenestrating may become less distasteful.

bborud 8y ago

Then they'd be wrong. You focus on the 5% of people who tell the 95% others what to think. And you don't ask people what they think, you observe their behavior and hope you can make sense of it. People have no fucking clue what they want. You would have to be insane to ask people for their _opinions_ and expect something you can work with.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

drb91 8y ago

How do you know what consumers want without offering choice?