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> The new keyboard has the same dimensions and look as its two predecessors, but the keys feel just a little bit different. They're quieter, for one thing. They

> The new keyboard has the same dimensions and look as its two predecessors, but the keys feel just a little bit different. They're quieter, for one thing. They have a softer, less click-y feel that is a little closer to the pre-2016 models' chiclet keys. We found the new keyboard to be a little nicer to type on, but it's not a radical difference. It's unlikely to convert the detractors, but it's a welcome iteration for those who liked or didn't mind the previous butterfly keyboards. I'm going to wait a year, maybe 18 months for feedback before I consider upgrading. Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? No touchbar, smaller touchpad than the newer macbooks, but updated specs? Call it Macbook Developer... We build the software for the "Pros" after all. I just don't get it.

lcnmrn 8y ago
They have to recover the money spent on TouchBar R&D. We won’t see a proper MacBook Pro until 2020.
- bredren 8y ago
  I also think that part of there are economic and organizational commitment reasons the touchbar is still getting made. I do not think it is because people love the touchbar. Color me optimisitic, but I'm hopeful a new arm-based mac will come earlier than 2020, though.
- baseten 8y ago
  It seems to me the touchbar was just a clever way to get their own processor into their laptops for some large scale real-world testing before they ditch intel and build the entire thing themselves. 2020 is a good guess I'd say.
  - thesephist 8y ago
    I'm surprised this is the first time I've seen the "touchbar as a way to get the A-series chips into macbooks" take. It's the most sensible explanation.
  - Dunedan 8y ago
    Even without the Touchbar, using the T1 for securing the TouchID sensor (amongst the other duties it fulfills) would've been justification enough. So no, that's no excuse for the Touchbar.
  - Dunedan 8y ago
    Maybe the Touchbar was just a "clever" way to prepare all of us for sole touch-based input, which is going to be included in the MBP in 2020. ;-) P.S.: I don't even think touch-only input is neccessarily a bad idea. All Apple has to do to make it work is to implement some kind of really good haptic feedback which also allows to feel individual keys. I even expected that for this iteration of the MBP for the Touchbar.
    - dj-wonk 8y ago
      Re: your P.S.: If a touch keyboard could give haptic feedback that let us distinguish between a "correct" keypress and a missed one, it might work. Perhaps a pleasant haptic vibration in proportion to how close to center your finger strikes would work.
    - tomaskafka 8y ago
      > Hypothesis: Apple's low-profile MBP keyboard is just a temporary stage that should prepare us for solid state keyboard. > What is that? A non-moving keyboard where a feedback is faked convinvingly enough via localized haptic feedback. > See iPhone home button and MBP trackpad. https://mobile.twitter.com/keff85/status/1011350819210498050 https://mobile.twitter.com/keff85/status/1011350819210498050
  - dj-wonk 8y ago
    Sure, there are downsides to the touchbar (I get it), but I'd suggest we ask this question: where does Apple want to go with the touchbar? Instead of focusing on where it is right now, think about what it could be. With haptic feedback and perhaps different locations/placement, it has the potential to augment or even transform the ways we interact with the computer. Put another way, the current problems are not insurmountable. Changing habits is not easy. What if there are better options than current keyboards? All I'm saying is consider what might be in the works. To be clear, I'm not saying that we should blindly accept anything Apple does. But we should not blindly assume that their decisions are based on the worst intentions, either.
- octorian 8y ago
  I kinda wish they were able to implement the touchbar in some sort of hybrid way, like those Art Lebedev keyboards we all saw hyped (but probably never in person) back in the day. While I'll admit there are cool things you can do with embedded OLED displays, the keys they sacrificed for it are keys I actually need to press. Regularly.
- bscphil 8y ago
  That's the sunk cost fallacy. If the traditional function keys would sell better than the new touchbar, their best move would be to start selling the old ones right away, even if that meant "throwing money away" on r&d.
- alwillis 8y ago
  >They have to recover the money spent on TouchBar R&D. We won’t see a proper MacBook Pro until 2020. The amount of money spent on the TouchBar has nothing to do with anything. Apple makes a new set of chips for each new iPhone, iPad and Mac; they have the in-house expertise and the budget to make whatever they want whenever they want. It's not like the Mac division has it's own profit/lost statement it has to worry about. The main reason why it's taken this long to get MacBook Pros to this level of performance is due to delays by Intel; simple as that.
peterjonesio 8y ago
Seems we share thoughts on this. I think a macbook developer model with the spec you mention would be quite popular.
varrock 8y ago
The 15-inch 2015 Retina model is no longer being sold on their website, too. It was there as an option for some time, but it appears this new update called for getting rid of it. I was planning on saving up to finance that as my next laptop purchase, but seems as if I'll have to go through a third party seller.
- SyneRyder 8y ago
  And worth noting the 2015 15-inch MBP they've discontinued had the old non-butterfly keyboards. The old style keyboards are gone, Apple is 100% in on the keyboards they currently have a defect service program on. [1] (Edit: Though these new MBPs apparently have a new third generation keyboard, so not exactly identical.) [1] https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...
- skuhn 8y ago
  The mid-2015 model (which I still use and think is way better) is over 3 years old now. It was always bound to be discontinued eventually. There are still some available in the Apple Store under the clearance section (https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearance/mac https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearanc...). Definitely your last chance to get this model new from Apple.
- mgkimsal 8y ago
  Bought a 2016, then returned it and got a refurb 2015. My only regret was getting the 500g SSD vs waiting for a 1tb model (which my friend got). The refurb levels were changing daily, and I kept missing the 1tb models, so I pulled the trigger on a 500g. Didn't care for the touch bar - yes, hey, apparently all the cool kids 'remap' their ESC key, and many did it I guess 20 years ago(!), but I've got decades of muscle memory to overcome. But beyond that, yeah sure it was thinner and sexier, but had a 20% smaller battery, and for the work I do, I guess I'm not 'pro' enough, but never managed more than about 4 hours max of real work. The 2015 model was 'good enough' in most respects, and better in others (keyboard, battery), and... cheaper. Always interested to see and try the newer models, but probably won't upgrade in 2018 or 2019 without some massive reason to do so. EDIT - well, the 32g option might be a worthwhile reason to upgrade. And the battery looks slightly larger than the 2016 model.
r0fl 8y ago
They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value. The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints.
- bunderbunder 8y ago
  > The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Haven't done a survey, but quite a few folks I know who work at Mac shops report that their employers have been steering clear of the new MacBooks and just trying to keep the older models they already have alive, while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. Making the keyboard reliable would help, but that touchbar is also a legitimate ergonomic concern for anyone who uses software that requires you to be banging on F-keys all day.
  - dvtrn 8y ago
    >while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. This is ultimately what I ended up having to do; not really by choice. My 2015 MBP was stolen, considered looking for a refurb model but found myself test driving an HP Spectre x360-a minute with the keyboard, another few minutes Googling linux driver support on my phone and some other specs. I was walking out the door with the new purchase 15 minutes later. It's been a couple of days now, I still haven't gotten around to throwing *nix at it, but for a majority of purposes WSL is getting me by pretty nicely enough. A few days of getting a fresh Windows installation and ridding myself of all that retail bloatware, I'm actually not having a bad time with Windows 10 given it's the first time I've dailied a windows machine since XPSP1. That's how far I'm going to avoid the new mbp because key input means that much to me-given how much time I spend in text fields, but this is a really enjoyable machine so far. After 3 years though my eyes definitely got used to the retina display, and this screen just can't match the color variation or the deep darks-then again it also may be the high gloss touch screen.
nailer 8y ago
If you're used to MacBooks, check out the Surface Laptop or Surface Book. - The hardware (particularly the keyboard and massive trackpad) is great - apt-get on WSL is better than homebrew will ever be (powershell too if you have the time to learn it) - Windows 10 has a dedicated team working on it (Apple has merged iOS and macOS teams since a few years ago, which may be because iOS makes a lot more money).
- jawilson2 8y ago
  Can you develop for iOS on a Surface?
  - jaxondu 8y ago
    By running virtual desktop using MacInCloud, MacStadium, HostMyApple, Xcode Club etc.
  - nailer 8y ago
    Not for Swift/Objective C - you'll need a Mac device to run the simulator. I mainly used my Macbooks for Python, node.js, some C and bash. Edit: changed emulator to simulator (which is true, it's x64 iOS).
    - jawilson2 8y ago
      Same here. My work provides us with Macs (I just got the touchbar one), and 90% of my time is spent in iTerm ssh'd into my linux work desktop with tmux. We had a choice of a ThinkPad, but it is just so goddamn hard to get used to a different trackpad after a mac.
    - umanwizard 8y ago
      It is a simulator, not an emulator.
  - nickspacek 8y ago
    Good to point out that iOS developers want a good solid laptop. It is definitely the case though that there are developers who don't/won't do iOS development but want a solid, well-built laptop with good components, good support, and good drivers. I have no idea if the Surface laptops fit that bill, but I assume they have lots of support from Microsoft. I've been running a ZBook G3 with Debian 9 and have been having a pretty good experience so far. The laptop feels pretty good but I'm sure a MacBook Pro would be a step up in terms of hardware quality.
gwbas1c 8y ago
Better yet, why don't they go back and grab the 2006 17" form factor? That was the best developer laptop I had. The missing 2" on the 15" just makes the IDE too narrow.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  I wouldn't mind that either, but OTOH, I don't work on a laptop screen all day as a rule. I'd rather have a compact machine that I can just plug into a screen. I wouldn't mind a Mac Mini style machine with magsafe power and/or an easily detachable docking station.
  - extra88 8y ago
    Without a battery, you'd have to shut down each time you moved from seat to seat. You might as well carry a fast, bootable drive around and treat the actual computer at each seat as the docking station.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  I keep wanting to buy a 17" and then walking back from it after seeing/handling 17" laptops in physical stores. All the bezel-shrinking R&D being done for phones has to reach laptops at some point. I'm seriously losing half an inch of luggable-but-not-lookable space on each side of the screen, plus a good inch below. (I have like the most common 13" Dell in the world; just walking around in the study room of the library I see three more.)
  - baumandm 8y ago
    The HP Spectre x360 is a good example of bezel-shrinking in laptops. I have a 13" model and it's nice to have a more compact laptop. I have no idea why this style isn't more popular. Maybe it seems too fragile to consumers?
    - llampx 8y ago
      It is extremely popular, in the PC market and to some extent in the Mac market as well. The MacBook Pro 2016 had smaller bezels than the 2015.
gnicholas 8y ago
Where is this quote from? Was the original link to something other than the Apple release? The linked Apple release just says: > an improved third-generation keyboard for quieter typing
- verisimilitude 8y ago
  That got me, too. It's from the Ars piece on today's news: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples-new-2018-macbook-pros-are-now-available-and-the-top-specs-are-much-faster/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples-new-2018-macb...
iliasku 8y ago
i'm a developer and the keyboard is fine
moron4hire 8y ago
I'm a developer and I love the touch bar.
pastor_elm 8y ago
There will be a gen 4 keyboard in 18 months.
toasterlovin 8y ago
Web developer here. The MacBook Air is fast enough for me, so I am very much interested in thinner, lighter, and non-performance related features (Touch Bar and Touch ID) in the Pro lineup.
rayiner 8y ago
Do you speak on behalf of all "developers?" The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP. I notice you don't quote two paragraphs right before that: > The butterfly keyboard design Apple introduced in 2016 has been divisive. Some people really like it, claiming it has fast travel and a sturdy, responsive feel to it. Others feel it's uncomfortable to type on. We haven't seen a keyboard this polarizing in a long time; it's a point of passionate disagreement even among Ars Technica reviews staff. The reaction is mixed, even among people who compare laptops to each other for a living. But you make it sound like anybody who knows what they're doing would prefer the old model.
- ianferrel 8y ago
  >Do you speak on behalf of all "developers?" The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP. Isn't that mostly because they let the Macbook Air languish, rather than either upgrading it or letting it drop to netbook-level pricing. So lots of people (myself included) who wanted a Mac laptop bought the Pro one instead.
- tolmasky 8y ago
  > The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP. This is after an (at the time) abnormally long period of little to no substantial updates to the laptops. If you remember at the time, people were worrying about the lack of a new laptop the way they worry now about the Mac Pro. It's really not completely fair to state this metric without the realization that there was a lot of pent up demand for modern components, which would probably overrule any other issues. I was one of the people that bought the 2016 model -- and I'm not happy (not least of which because one of the keys literally fell off), so "fastest selling" != "well received". As it stands now, for me the defining quality of the hardware is that it is the easiest way to run macOS. The fact that the 2015 model and the Air keep selling so well is in my opinion a better demonstration of the "reception" of this new MacBook. > The reaction is mixed, even among people who compare laptops to each other for a living. But you make it sound like anybody who knows what they're doing would prefer the old model. This is also just not a fair representation of the actual state of affairs. Regardless of whether the keyboards are enjoyable when functional, the reality is that they have quality issues. Apple having to create a program for replacing the keyboards since they break so often is just a fact. Interestingly enough, I'm in this camp: I really have no issue with the new keyboard except for the fact that the keys break. Well, that and the Touch Bar which is a separate topic.
madis 8y ago
You are wording my exact thoughts. mid-2015 13" MBP was good balance. They've played this thinness and flashy lights game too much too long. My new Lenovo T480S (24GB DDR4, is coming next week :) Sweet Linux with i3 tiled window manager. All the ports & productivity I can ask for. I'm voting with my wallet and my vote doesn't go to Apple.
- throw_away2 8y ago
  Right now, I'm hoping my maxed out 2015 13" lasts forever.
ransom1538 8y ago
Sorry I am missing something here. I just looked up my laptop's info: 2.7 GHz Intel Core i7 from 2012. So you are telling me 6 years later, I can get a 2.9GHz 6‑core 8th‑generation Intel Core i7 processor for ~$2800. So Moore's law was incorrect?
- opportune 8y ago
  I believe Moore's law hasn't been true since before 2012 Anyway, yes, this is why a lot of people, myself included, think the new MBPs are not at all worth the price, especially if you have an older one. There is essentially no reason for me to ever upgrade from my late 2013 model unless it completely breaks. I love this computer, it was probably one of the best purchases I've ever made
- ryanisnan 8y ago
  Why are you assuming that Apple's pricing strategy has anything to do with reality?
  - braythwayt 8y ago
    Who are we to believe has a grasp of the reality of value-for-money? Hacker News commenters smugly declaring that Macbooks are junk? Or Apple's sales figures? If we're going to be rational, we can't wave it all off as marketing or shiny toys, we have to accept that if they are consistently selling tons of products at high margins, they are delivering value, and the market is voting for that value with their pocketbooks. If we say, "Well, their prices are out of whack with their value because we can get the exact same thing from Bob's Motherboards for half the price," then we are wilfully choosing to emphasize the part of their value that their customers don't care about, while ignoring the part of their value that customers care about.
- astrodust 8y ago
  Moore's Law is with respect to transistor counts and has nothing at all to do with performance. Historically speaking transistors and performance were coincidentally related: More transistors helped do more things at once, and tinier transistors ran faster than bigger ones. Now we're at a different inflection point where the transistors aren't shrinking as quickly, but the dies themselves are getting bigger and the chips are growing more complex in terms of 3D structure. There's more transistors in there, but the easy gains in terms of pitch reduction leading to higher clock-speeds are gone. If we'd been on the same track as before you'd have a ~140GHz CPU. Instead you have a 2.9GHz one because physics is a buzzkill. Here's an older article discussing the problem from 2012 but the same trend has held: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/116561-the-death-of-cpu-scaling-from-one-core-to-many-and-why-were-still-stuck https://www.extremetech.com/computing/116561-the-death-of-cp... Transistor counts continue to climb but power consumption, clock speeds and performance per clock have all hit a wall.
notadoc 8y ago
> Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? That would have been far more desirable. I am repulsed by the Touch Bar, and the keyboard which is widely reported to be notoriously unreliable and requiring very expensive repairs does not inspire confidence. Sigh.
stronglikedan 8y ago
All that talk about the keyboard in the article and not a single picture of it...weird.
wingworks 8y ago
I like the touchbar and the bigger touchpad, and even the new keyboard (at least, while it works). Granted there are a few bugs with the touchbar which are rather annoying, but nothing they can't fix with a software update (fingers crossed).

lcnmrn 8y ago

They have to recover the money spent on TouchBar R&D. We won’t see a proper MacBook Pro until 2020.

bredren 8y ago
I also think that part of there are economic and organizational commitment reasons the touchbar is still getting made. I do not think it is because people love the touchbar. Color me optimisitic, but I'm hopeful a new arm-based mac will come earlier than 2020, though.
baseten 8y ago
It seems to me the touchbar was just a clever way to get their own processor into their laptops for some large scale real-world testing before they ditch intel and build the entire thing themselves. 2020 is a good guess I'd say.
- thesephist 8y ago
  I'm surprised this is the first time I've seen the "touchbar as a way to get the A-series chips into macbooks" take. It's the most sensible explanation.
- Dunedan 8y ago
  Even without the Touchbar, using the T1 for securing the TouchID sensor (amongst the other duties it fulfills) would've been justification enough. So no, that's no excuse for the Touchbar.
- Dunedan 8y ago
  Maybe the Touchbar was just a "clever" way to prepare all of us for sole touch-based input, which is going to be included in the MBP in 2020. ;-) P.S.: I don't even think touch-only input is neccessarily a bad idea. All Apple has to do to make it work is to implement some kind of really good haptic feedback which also allows to feel individual keys. I even expected that for this iteration of the MBP for the Touchbar.
  - dj-wonk 8y ago
    Re: your P.S.: If a touch keyboard could give haptic feedback that let us distinguish between a "correct" keypress and a missed one, it might work. Perhaps a pleasant haptic vibration in proportion to how close to center your finger strikes would work.
  - tomaskafka 8y ago
    > Hypothesis: Apple's low-profile MBP keyboard is just a temporary stage that should prepare us for solid state keyboard. > What is that? A non-moving keyboard where a feedback is faked convinvingly enough via localized haptic feedback. > See iPhone home button and MBP trackpad. https://mobile.twitter.com/keff85/status/1011350819210498050 https://mobile.twitter.com/keff85/status/1011350819210498050
- dj-wonk 8y ago
  Sure, there are downsides to the touchbar (I get it), but I'd suggest we ask this question: where does Apple want to go with the touchbar? Instead of focusing on where it is right now, think about what it could be. With haptic feedback and perhaps different locations/placement, it has the potential to augment or even transform the ways we interact with the computer. Put another way, the current problems are not insurmountable. Changing habits is not easy. What if there are better options than current keyboards? All I'm saying is consider what might be in the works. To be clear, I'm not saying that we should blindly accept anything Apple does. But we should not blindly assume that their decisions are based on the worst intentions, either.
octorian 8y ago
I kinda wish they were able to implement the touchbar in some sort of hybrid way, like those Art Lebedev keyboards we all saw hyped (but probably never in person) back in the day. While I'll admit there are cool things you can do with embedded OLED displays, the keys they sacrificed for it are keys I actually need to press. Regularly.
bscphil 8y ago
That's the sunk cost fallacy. If the traditional function keys would sell better than the new touchbar, their best move would be to start selling the old ones right away, even if that meant "throwing money away" on r&d.
alwillis 8y ago
>They have to recover the money spent on TouchBar R&D. We won’t see a proper MacBook Pro until 2020. The amount of money spent on the TouchBar has nothing to do with anything. Apple makes a new set of chips for each new iPhone, iPad and Mac; they have the in-house expertise and the budget to make whatever they want whenever they want. It's not like the Mac division has it's own profit/lost statement it has to worry about. The main reason why it's taken this long to get MacBook Pros to this level of performance is due to delays by Intel; simple as that.

peterjonesio 8y ago

Seems we share thoughts on this. I think a macbook developer model with the spec you mention would be quite popular.

varrock 8y ago

The 15-inch 2015 Retina model is no longer being sold on their website, too. It was there as an option for some time, but it appears this new update called for getting rid of it. I was planning on saving up to finance that as my next laptop purchase, but seems as if I'll have to go through a third party seller.

SyneRyder 8y ago
And worth noting the 2015 15-inch MBP they've discontinued had the old non-butterfly keyboards. The old style keyboards are gone, Apple is 100% in on the keyboards they currently have a defect service program on. [1] (Edit: Though these new MBPs apparently have a new third generation keyboard, so not exactly identical.) [1] https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/ https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-m...
skuhn 8y ago
The mid-2015 model (which I still use and think is way better) is over 3 years old now. It was always bound to be discontinued eventually. There are still some available in the Apple Store under the clearance section (https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearance/mac https://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearanc...). Definitely your last chance to get this model new from Apple.
mgkimsal 8y ago
Bought a 2016, then returned it and got a refurb 2015. My only regret was getting the 500g SSD vs waiting for a 1tb model (which my friend got). The refurb levels were changing daily, and I kept missing the 1tb models, so I pulled the trigger on a 500g. Didn't care for the touch bar - yes, hey, apparently all the cool kids 'remap' their ESC key, and many did it I guess 20 years ago(!), but I've got decades of muscle memory to overcome. But beyond that, yeah sure it was thinner and sexier, but had a 20% smaller battery, and for the work I do, I guess I'm not 'pro' enough, but never managed more than about 4 hours max of real work. The 2015 model was 'good enough' in most respects, and better in others (keyboard, battery), and... cheaper. Always interested to see and try the newer models, but probably won't upgrade in 2018 or 2019 without some massive reason to do so. EDIT - well, the 32g option might be a worthwhile reason to upgrade. And the battery looks slightly larger than the 2016 model.

r0fl 8y ago

They didn't do that because it is not what most people want. Apple has to make changes that will sell more laptops to the masses to maximize shareholder value. The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Better to focus on the 90% of customers who buy products and make up 10% of the complaints then to focus on the 10% of customers who make up 90% of the complaints.

bunderbunder 8y ago
> The niche developer/macrumors posters will never be happy regardless of what Apple does. Haven't done a survey, but quite a few folks I know who work at Mac shops report that their employers have been steering clear of the new MacBooks and just trying to keep the older models they already have alive, while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. Making the keyboard reliable would help, but that touchbar is also a legitimate ergonomic concern for anyone who uses software that requires you to be banging on F-keys all day.
- dvtrn 8y ago
  >while also looking seriously into the feasibility of switching to PCs running Linux if they don't get their act together. This is ultimately what I ended up having to do; not really by choice. My 2015 MBP was stolen, considered looking for a refurb model but found myself test driving an HP Spectre x360-a minute with the keyboard, another few minutes Googling linux driver support on my phone and some other specs. I was walking out the door with the new purchase 15 minutes later. It's been a couple of days now, I still haven't gotten around to throwing *nix at it, but for a majority of purposes WSL is getting me by pretty nicely enough. A few days of getting a fresh Windows installation and ridding myself of all that retail bloatware, I'm actually not having a bad time with Windows 10 given it's the first time I've dailied a windows machine since XPSP1. That's how far I'm going to avoid the new mbp because key input means that much to me-given how much time I spend in text fields, but this is a really enjoyable machine so far. After 3 years though my eyes definitely got used to the retina display, and this screen just can't match the color variation or the deep darks-then again it also may be the high gloss touch screen.

nailer 8y ago

If you're used to MacBooks, check out the Surface Laptop or Surface Book. - The hardware (particularly the keyboard and massive trackpad) is great - apt-get on WSL is better than homebrew will ever be (powershell too if you have the time to learn it) - Windows 10 has a dedicated team working on it (Apple has merged iOS and macOS teams since a few years ago, which may be because iOS makes a lot more money).

jawilson2 8y ago
Can you develop for iOS on a Surface?
- jaxondu 8y ago
  By running virtual desktop using MacInCloud, MacStadium, HostMyApple, Xcode Club etc.
- nailer 8y ago
  Not for Swift/Objective C - you'll need a Mac device to run the simulator. I mainly used my Macbooks for Python, node.js, some C and bash. Edit: changed emulator to simulator (which is true, it's x64 iOS).
  - jawilson2 8y ago
    Same here. My work provides us with Macs (I just got the touchbar one), and 90% of my time is spent in iTerm ssh'd into my linux work desktop with tmux. We had a choice of a ThinkPad, but it is just so goddamn hard to get used to a different trackpad after a mac.
  - umanwizard 8y ago
    It is a simulator, not an emulator.
- nickspacek 8y ago
  Good to point out that iOS developers want a good solid laptop. It is definitely the case though that there are developers who don't/won't do iOS development but want a solid, well-built laptop with good components, good support, and good drivers. I have no idea if the Surface laptops fit that bill, but I assume they have lots of support from Microsoft. I've been running a ZBook G3 with Debian 9 and have been having a pretty good experience so far. The laptop feels pretty good but I'm sure a MacBook Pro would be a step up in terms of hardware quality.

gwbas1c 8y ago

Better yet, why don't they go back and grab the 2006 17" form factor? That was the best developer laptop I had. The missing 2" on the 15" just makes the IDE too narrow.

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
I wouldn't mind that either, but OTOH, I don't work on a laptop screen all day as a rule. I'd rather have a compact machine that I can just plug into a screen. I wouldn't mind a Mac Mini style machine with magsafe power and/or an easily detachable docking station.
- extra88 8y ago
  Without a battery, you'd have to shut down each time you moved from seat to seat. You might as well carry a fast, bootable drive around and treat the actual computer at each seat as the docking station.
thanatropism 8y ago
I keep wanting to buy a 17" and then walking back from it after seeing/handling 17" laptops in physical stores. All the bezel-shrinking R&D being done for phones has to reach laptops at some point. I'm seriously losing half an inch of luggable-but-not-lookable space on each side of the screen, plus a good inch below. (I have like the most common 13" Dell in the world; just walking around in the study room of the library I see three more.)
- baumandm 8y ago
  The HP Spectre x360 is a good example of bezel-shrinking in laptops. I have a 13" model and it's nice to have a more compact laptop. I have no idea why this style isn't more popular. Maybe it seems too fragile to consumers?
  - llampx 8y ago
    It is extremely popular, in the PC market and to some extent in the Mac market as well. The MacBook Pro 2016 had smaller bezels than the 2015.

gnicholas 8y ago

Where is this quote from? Was the original link to something other than the Apple release? The linked Apple release just says: > an improved third-generation keyboard for quieter typing

verisimilitude 8y ago
That got me, too. It's from the Ars piece on today's news: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples-new-2018-macbook-pros-are-now-available-and-the-top-specs-are-much-faster/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/07/apples-new-2018-macb...

iliasku 8y ago

i'm a developer and the keyboard is fine

moron4hire 8y ago

I'm a developer and I love the touch bar.

pastor_elm 8y ago

There will be a gen 4 keyboard in 18 months.

toasterlovin 8y ago

Web developer here. The MacBook Air is fast enough for me, so I am very much interested in thinner, lighter, and non-performance related features (Touch Bar and Touch ID) in the Pro lineup.

rayiner 8y ago

Do you speak on behalf of all "developers?" The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP. I notice you don't quote two paragraphs right before that: > The butterfly keyboard design Apple introduced in 2016 has been divisive. Some people really like it, claiming it has fast travel and a sturdy, responsive feel to it. Others feel it's uncomfortable to type on. We haven't seen a keyboard this polarizing in a long time; it's a point of passionate disagreement even among Ars Technica reviews staff. The reaction is mixed, even among people who compare laptops to each other for a living. But you make it sound like anybody who knows what they're doing would prefer the old model.

ianferrel 8y ago
>Do you speak on behalf of all "developers?" The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP. Isn't that mostly because they let the Macbook Air languish, rather than either upgrading it or letting it drop to netbook-level pricing. So lots of people (myself included) who wanted a Mac laptop bought the Pro one instead.
tolmasky 8y ago
> The 2016 revision is Apple's fastest-selling iteration of the MBP. This is after an (at the time) abnormally long period of little to no substantial updates to the laptops. If you remember at the time, people were worrying about the lack of a new laptop the way they worry now about the Mac Pro. It's really not completely fair to state this metric without the realization that there was a lot of pent up demand for modern components, which would probably overrule any other issues. I was one of the people that bought the 2016 model -- and I'm not happy (not least of which because one of the keys literally fell off), so "fastest selling" != "well received". As it stands now, for me the defining quality of the hardware is that it is the easiest way to run macOS. The fact that the 2015 model and the Air keep selling so well is in my opinion a better demonstration of the "reception" of this new MacBook. > The reaction is mixed, even among people who compare laptops to each other for a living. But you make it sound like anybody who knows what they're doing would prefer the old model. This is also just not a fair representation of the actual state of affairs. Regardless of whether the keyboards are enjoyable when functional, the reality is that they have quality issues. Apple having to create a program for replacing the keyboards since they break so often is just a fact. Interestingly enough, I'm in this camp: I really have no issue with the new keyboard except for the fact that the keys break. Well, that and the Touch Bar which is a separate topic.

madis 8y ago

You are wording my exact thoughts. mid-2015 13" MBP was good balance. They've played this thinness and flashy lights game too much too long. My new Lenovo T480S (24GB DDR4, is coming next week :) Sweet Linux with i3 tiled window manager. All the ports & productivity I can ask for. I'm voting with my wallet and my vote doesn't go to Apple.

throw_away2 8y ago
Right now, I'm hoping my maxed out 2015 13" lasts forever.

ransom1538 8y ago

Sorry I am missing something here. I just looked up my laptop's info: 2.7 GHz Intel Core i7 from 2012. So you are telling me 6 years later, I can get a 2.9GHz 6‑core 8th‑generation Intel Core i7 processor for ~$2800. So Moore's law was incorrect?

opportune 8y ago
I believe Moore's law hasn't been true since before 2012 Anyway, yes, this is why a lot of people, myself included, think the new MBPs are not at all worth the price, especially if you have an older one. There is essentially no reason for me to ever upgrade from my late 2013 model unless it completely breaks. I love this computer, it was probably one of the best purchases I've ever made
ryanisnan 8y ago
Why are you assuming that Apple's pricing strategy has anything to do with reality?
- braythwayt 8y ago
  Who are we to believe has a grasp of the reality of value-for-money? Hacker News commenters smugly declaring that Macbooks are junk? Or Apple's sales figures? If we're going to be rational, we can't wave it all off as marketing or shiny toys, we have to accept that if they are consistently selling tons of products at high margins, they are delivering value, and the market is voting for that value with their pocketbooks. If we say, "Well, their prices are out of whack with their value because we can get the exact same thing from Bob's Motherboards for half the price," then we are wilfully choosing to emphasize the part of their value that their customers don't care about, while ignoring the part of their value that customers care about.
astrodust 8y ago
Moore's Law is with respect to transistor counts and has nothing at all to do with performance. Historically speaking transistors and performance were coincidentally related: More transistors helped do more things at once, and tinier transistors ran faster than bigger ones. Now we're at a different inflection point where the transistors aren't shrinking as quickly, but the dies themselves are getting bigger and the chips are growing more complex in terms of 3D structure. There's more transistors in there, but the easy gains in terms of pitch reduction leading to higher clock-speeds are gone. If we'd been on the same track as before you'd have a ~140GHz CPU. Instead you have a 2.9GHz one because physics is a buzzkill. Here's an older article discussing the problem from 2012 but the same trend has held: https://www.extremetech.com/computing/116561-the-death-of-cpu-scaling-from-one-core-to-many-and-why-were-still-stuck https://www.extremetech.com/computing/116561-the-death-of-cp... Transistor counts continue to climb but power consumption, clock speeds and performance per clock have all hit a wall.

notadoc 8y ago

> Why they couldn't grab a 2012-2015 model and upgrade the guts? That would have been far more desirable. I am repulsed by the Touch Bar, and the keyboard which is widely reported to be notoriously unreliable and requiring very expensive repairs does not inspire confidence. Sigh.

stronglikedan 8y ago

All that talk about the keyboard in the article and not a single picture of it...weird.

wingworks 8y ago

I like the touchbar and the bigger touchpad, and even the new keyboard (at least, while it works). Granted there are a few bugs with the touchbar which are rather annoying, but nothing they can't fix with a software update (fingers crossed).