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I spent eight years building software on .NET, so I have a lot of time for Microsoft, but I fully understand why a lot of people aren't happy with this news. It
by EnderMB 8y ago
I spent eight years building software on .NET, so I have a lot of time for Microsoft, but I fully understand why a lot of people aren't happy with this news. It's been good to have a leader in open-source that is unaffiliated with anyone but the tech they chose to use (Ruby/Rails). For me, it doesn't matter who takes it over - it's just sad to see a neutral player disappear.
With all that said, things have changed a lot over at GitHub over the past 2-3 years, so I can't say I'm all that surprised that this was the outcome. Restructures, scandals, and some crazy comments over the few years has led me to believe that GitHub probably isn't the same company that the development community embraced. For that reason, I can't see Microsoft doing a "Skype" and merging GitHub into their platforms. Developers are fickle, and if Microsoft mess with GitHub then it's not only a huge blow to the relations they've been trying to build for the past few years, it's a guaranteed way to see developers flock to the next big service (i.e. GitLab).
- closeparen 8y agoThis dovetails nicely with Windows Subsystem for Linux, VS Code, and Microsoft’s ongoing play to capture the Silicon Valley hipster development ecosystem that Apple is alienating.
- rbosinger 8y agoYeah, the open source dev community may very well see Microsoft quite differently in upcoming years if they keep playing their cards this way.
- ozim 8y agoI think that this is real "DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS" and they know it will bring them good times.
- mixmastamyk 8y agoCan't speak for everyone but that won't happen personally until they start respecting privacy.
- tjes 8y agoAnd my update settings. I understand the need for security, but updates shouldn't break my computer either.
- int0x80 8y agoI think it is a long term goal. "Old" schoolers have and will likely have for ever that evil 90s vision of MS. However it is changing a bit in that people too. They still may be evil, but at least the look more modern (opensource, new technology, using/contributing to Linux etc). However the important thing (for MS) here is new people. If you come into the scene now or in a few years you only get to know the "new" masked MS image. Yes, they are still doing dubious stuff but is all under the hoods, buried by layers of hype, cloud, linux and fireworks. Rebranding some big stablished company with that kind of history is something that takes a long long time.
- mixmastamyk 8y agoOr even more old school that remembers the original MS that put BASIC on my Commodore.
- guitarbill 8y agoMicrosoft isn't acquiring Github out of the goodness of it's heart, they want something of value from it. What is that, and is it compatible with what made Github useful? I won't stick around to find out, my time is too valuable and the competition is strong. For me, Github doesn't really have any distinctive features except that is was the biggest, and so most convenient. I suspect most people and organizations will be in the same situation.
- kitsunesoba 8y agoThe web dev part, anyway. Microsoft still has a long hill to climb to be in the graces of nearly any kind of native dev.
- taakd 8y agoWhile partially true, there are a ton of small and medium size companies out there that are just starting to rewrite their legacy stacks, with many choosing .Net with MSSQL. Worst part is, these shops keep turning up at my local LinuxFest yearly, looking for new dev talent.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y agoWhat mirror universe do you live in where Windows doesn't have a huge amount of 3rd party native applications?
- marssaxman 8y agoMicrosoft had their chance, and they worked hard to show us what they're made of. We learned the lesson, and they don't get another chance.
- eksemplar 8y agoI doubt it, I think they are doing it because they’ve seen more and more of their enterprise migrate from TFS to git. This is my opinion, but I think Microsoft tech is fairly terrible for open source and smaller projects, because .Net is a lot of complicated tooling you’ll never use outside of enterprise. At the same time they are rapidly becoming the “only” enterprise option rather quickly, and with that comes the question of why you’d chose AWS over Azure. Sure visual studio has a free version, Windows now does Linux and .net Core is open but I see those moves as a way to make c# replace JAVA in schools not as a way to make open source love Microsoft.
- btown 8y agoGame development has used C# for quite a while, and with official support for Mono, and adoption of .NET in Unity [0], it's a viable choice. The language is constantly improving [1], and is doing so in the open, on GitHub no less [2]! From what I saw as an intern at Microsoft a while back, there's way more of an engineering-led culture at Microsoft than people give it credit for, and to the extent there's a push to promote their own language and tooling, it's largely driven by a wholehearted belief (and challenge) that Microsoft tools are the right ones for the job, with initiatives being chosen to fulfill and expand that promise. And, more recently, what I hear is that Nadella's initiatives are genuinely promoting that ethos across the entire leadership structure. In that context, they make a lot of sense as a partner for Github. [0] https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/03/28/updated-scripting-runtime-in-unity-2018-1-what-does-the-future-hold/ https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/03/28/updated-scripting-runti... [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/csharp-7 https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/csh... [2] https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vbteam/2015/01/10/were-moving-to-github/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vbteam/2015/01/10/were-movi...
- skreutzer 8y agoNo, they're totally reactive to everything. Why re-invent the wheel with NuGet if there's already software package repositories in the libre-free world for decades, but then not make it the main software distribution mechanism while allowing independent package signing and repository providers (to prevent Microsoft from gatekeeping the distribution channel), effectively eliminating viruses and the attached antivirus industry from the Windows OS? Why give out Internet Explorer gratis, but not the OS if it's that important for human communication? Why does Notepad only in 2018 get support for GNU/Linux line break \n and not in the many, many years before? Why can't Word export a valid XHTML file from a document in 2018, but VS never fails to generate valid XML? There are just thousands of examples like this that speak against the company having to do with engineering, it's more a law firm in my opinion. Let's not forget that it was their idea to claim that software is copyrightable in the same way like a novel is, with laws that are from the print era, and it made them an unbelievable amount of money and prevented the software field to enter a truly digital future. Humanity just lost several decades of progress because of this, and now GitHub, one of the few major innovations in the field, will go down the drain, too.
- pferde 8y agoI don't think Microsoft even uses the same deck of cards as FOSS people.
- EnderMB 8y agoThis was largely my thought behind the move. Given that GitHub is quite proudly built on Ruby, I can't see them wanting to switch things up from a tech perspective. GitHub is stable, and it's tech stack is capable of staying up despite some major DDoS attacks. If anything, I think this is an opportunity for Microsoft to introduce themselves to the Ruby and Rails teams, and to finally resolve the issues that stop Windows from being a first-class citizen in the Ruby world. If they can do this through both Windows and the Windows Subsystem for Linux then I think they'll be on to a winner. It's a capture of a much-loved service, and an opportunity to bring a mature set of tools into their domain.
- notimetorelax 8y agoI work for Microsoft, we run systems that are not built on MS technologies. There’s absolutely no push for migration. In my opinion, no-one will pressure GitHub to change their stack, it would be a suicide. Disclaimer: this is just my personal opinion.
- rubbingalcohol 8y agoSo you have inside knowledge of their business purpose in aquiring GitHub? Are you posting this in an official capacity as a representative of the company? Or do you not really know and just elevating your two cents using the name of your employer?
- notimetorelax 8y agoI have absolutely no knowledge of the deal. I’m commenting on the tech stack discussion, given my experience in the company and if GitHub joins, I’m 99.99% sure they will stay on the tech stack that they have today. Look at LinkedIn, it is still running on Scala.
- pscsbs 8y agoMinor clarification: LinkedIn primarily runs on Java not Scala.
- fierro 8y agoCan you elaborate on what the Silicon Valley "hipster development ecosystem" is?
- Zvolkov 8y agoIf it requires an explanation, don't explain.
- closeparen 8y agoThere are several distinct developer ecosystems. Some people write C# and VB on .NET in Visual Studio on Windows machines for delivery to Windows Server enterprise networks. Some people write Java on Spring/J2EE in Eclipse for delivery to Java enterprise application servers. Some people write C++ in proprietary IDEs for delivery to proprietary embedded systems platforms. But the one I’m talking about is the one centered around Github, Kubernetes, Macs, and trendy open source tools like Go, Rust, React, etc. The “hipster” characterization is tongue in cheek. It would be insufficient to say “the developer ecosystem” because MS already has one of those, including its own VCS, Team Foundation Services.
- rkangel 8y agoRust is an interesting one, because I think it bridges those last two - normally very separated - groups. Some of those who deliver software into embedded systems are excited about the possibility of a replacement to C++. (disclaimer: am an embedded systems engineer and a Rust fanboy)
- threeseed 8y ago> Silicon Valley hipster development ecosystem that Apple is alienating Not sure what you mean here. They've never specifically targeted non-Apple developers as a core constituency. It was mainly due to the fact that OSX was UNIX derived that the platform became popular at all.
- dang 8y agoWe detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17221777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17221777 and marked it off-topic.
- closeparen 8y agoMay I ask why? It seems germane to the rest of the thread speculating on what Microsoft might be doing with this acquisition.
- dang 8y agoWhoops, that was a mistake on my part. Sorry! It's fixed now. Thanks for responding so politely.
- BrainInAJar 8y ago> This dovetails nicely with Windows Subsystem for Linux Interix/SFU/SUA has always existed. WSL is just the latest iteration of it. And nobody uses it now just like nobody used it before
- bsagdiyev 8y agoThat's kind of a broad statement. I see a lot of people using WSL, I even think it has become part of the standard software kit for new hires within PlayStation Network. I know its widely used among the employees who opted for the Windows laptop over a MacBook. Anecdotal, of course, but I think you're downplaying the spread of its use.
- itomato 8y agoI have lived and worked in SV for a decade, and still don't know a single "Silicon Valley hipster" developing with WSL or VS Code. I do know the power of analytics and control over prominent backend systems, and the allure of being "gatekeeper" with the power to extract value from integrations.
- 2bitencryption 8y ago> VS Code you don't know anyone using vs code? in all the circles I know, it's the new de-facto goto for text editing heavier than notepad.
- halbritt 8y agoI'm running it on Ubuntu and like it much better than pycharm for python development.
- joelhaasnoot 8y agoI think it got popular fast in the JS-heavy communities.
- LolWolf 8y agoFor sure! I've managed to get a good chunk of people I work/coauthor with to use it (and like it!), and I've observed an increasing number of my students using it as well (in classes on ML and numerical computing).
- ravenstine 8y agoI used Sublime Text for the longest time; tried Atom but wasn't thrilled. After 2 days of using VS Code, I uninstalled Sublime Text. VS Code is an excellent tool.
- nickpeterson 8y agoIt is a shame though, because Sublime Text was/Is a great editor, but it's really tough to out compete a dedicated team of paid developers.
- bad_user 8y ago> This dovetails nicely with Windows Subsystem for Linux, VS Code, and Microsoft’s ongoing play to capture the Silicon Valley hipster development ecosystem that Apple is alienating. I can tell you from experience that that will never, ever happen. The most likely outcome is that GitHub will slowly but surely start to bleed open source projects to alternatives like GitLab. And GitHub will continue to live on, like LinkedIn and Skype before it, but it will lose mind share and will no longer be the epicenter of open source development. Remember SourceForge? Yeah, that's right.
- tekknik 8y agoLinux subsystem for windows is garbage, it brings all the same issues with running a linux VM on windows with no more benefit than cygwin gave and who exactly is apple alienating? This sounds like opinion since apple profits are doing just fine and waking into any incubator will show you who the dominant player is. also windows is not even close to comparable to macos except that they’re both OSes
- detaro 8y ago> Linux subsystem for windows is garbage, it brings all the same issues with running a linux VM on windows with no more benefit than cygwin gave > also windows is not even close to comparable to macos except that they’re both OSes This sounds like opinions ;)
- shevegen 8y agoNot quite so. I think WSL is a great idea and it also works very well, if we ignore minor bugs and oddities. But the acquisition of github is AWFUL. Microsoft gave the choice of "take it or leave it, my way or the highway". There was no way for me to associate with the move so I was gone from github after 10 years.
- johnchristopher 8y agoIt makes that Gitlab graph https://about.gitlab.com/images/blogimages/forrester-ci-wave-graphic.png https://about.gitlab.com/images/blogimages/forrester-ci-wave... even more interesting.
- flatline 8y agoI also spent years working with Microsoft’s proprietary technologies. The reality of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish was still alive and well as late as 2011 when I mostly stopped dealing with them. Since that time they have definitely taken a new direction, with increasing adoption of Linux in particular, but I have trouble belieiving the corporate DNA has been so thoroughly overwritten in the last few years that this does not spell the imminent demise of Github as the broadly useful plarform that we know it as today.
- awat 8y agoThis, I was trying to think of the right way to state this. Looks like I’ll be looking for alternatives.
- maskedSlacker 8y agoTossing out Ballmer has greatly improved things, but it's hard still hard to ever trust them. Maybe when Ballmer is dead and buried.
- zeusk 8y ago> Maybe when Ballmer is dead and buried. That is totally uncalled for.
- sjwright 8y agoThe use of a common idiom is uncalled for? Over my dead body!
- zeusk 8y agoHow often have you seen that idiom after some person's name?
- beenBoutIT 8y agoWith these types of idioms the subject is always going to be a person's name, or a personal pronoun. If there's no name attached it's most likely referencing an unnamed pet or wild animal.
- booleandilemma 8y agoI completely agree with your comment. As much as I love Microsoft, this is a weird development. It’s like if Google bought Mozilla and Firefox became just another Google browser.
- MBCook 8y agoIs it? I imagine VSS and their cloud source control offering (don’t remember the name) probably aren’t doing all that well in the face of GitHub. They want to be a player in that game, so they’ll transition off they are old product which isn’t that popular onto a new one they purchased that has all the mind share. As long as they don’t screw it up, and recent Microsoft seems to me like a company that won’t, it will benefit them. And perhaps it will benefit the user some to do have a company with deep pockets behind it.
- major505 8y agoMicrosoft adopt git as their main source control, even in internal projects. Makes sense they try to control the future of the tool they use in so meny projects.
- QueensGambit 8y agoThe timing is suspect, because Google has been pushing Cloud Source Repositories as a private Git repository recently [1]. So, GitHub will most likely be part of Azure portfolio. Developers might be fickle, but they are fully locked into their respective cloud platforms in the recent years. [1] https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2018/05/Cloud-Source-Repositories-more-than-just-a-private-Git-repository.html https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2018/05/Cloud-Source-Re...
- stormbrew 8y ago> For that reason, I can't see Microsoft doing a "Skype" and merging GitHub into their platforms. Maybe not now, but what about after the next reorganization or the next CEO? If it's no longer in MS' interests to keep a relationship with this audience somewhere down the road, why would they leave them alone? This is the uncertainty people are afraid of.
- Cthulhu_ 8y agoFor Github there was always uncertainty; if MS didn't take over, investors would've, or another (less capable) competitor (like I dunno, Yahoo?). I'm confident in MS keeping github running smoothly and moving forward.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- pentae 8y agoSkype wasn't ruined because they attempted to merge it into their other platforms. Skype was just flat out ruined with bloat, horribly inefficient code, turning it into a spying tool and not listening to their vocal users. Everyone was rioting after every update and it just got worse. To add insult to injury the last major update they have tried turning it into Snapchat. Their incompetence knows no bounds. If you think the same middle managers that ruined Skype aren't there anymore, you don't know how big companies like Microsoft work.
- PeterStuer 8y agoThe client was mismanaged, but forcing the backend onto their abysmal Lync stack did ruin reliability as well as privacy.
- yuhong 8y agoI wonder if pre-acquisition Skype was one of the hardest software the Windows team had to deal with. For example, at one point they used SYSENTER directly to make system calls!
- Hendrikto 8y agoDo you have a source for this? I enjoy reading about horrible software.
- some_account 8y agoOf course they will mess with it. Just slowly so developers dont leave. This is Microsoft. Read up on their tactics. It works.
- EnderMB 8y agoIt's why I'm surprised at the timing, since GitHub has had its own issues over the past few years, with a founder and other staff members leaving over harassment, and some questionable comments coming from members of their new team. I've felt for a while that GitHub had peaked, and that we weren't far away from seeing it push towards breaking the product to satisfy investors that want a return. With an acquisition, most of this becomes amplified, based on how Microsoft treat GitHub. IMO, leaving them alone to do their own thing could be just as bad as being too controlling. I'd like to see someone like Scott Hanselman, a well-liked developer in the development community be given the opportunity to sit in GitHub and to use Microsoft's resources to improve the open-source community.
- dragonsh 8y agoTry https://kallithea-scm.org/ https://kallithea-scm.org/ supporting not just git but also hg and svn.
- marcinkuzminski 8y agoKallithea doesn't support SVN, only RhodeCode does which Kallithea forked. SVN support amongst many other security fixes and features were added at a later stage into RhodeCode.
- dragonsh 8y agoOn Kallithea activity and release is better than rhodecode and truly open source under software conservancy. Kallithea do support svn and it has moved on, with turbogears 2 support and now the theme is also modern based on bootstrap.
- marcinkuzminski 8y agoI created RhodeCode, and know for sure Kallithea does not support SVN. - RhodeCode is based on newer and more modern than turgobears2 framework, called Pyramid. - RhodeCode had 20 releases since 2017, Kallithea had two. - RhodeCode fixed many security issues that Kallithea didn't, not to mention dozen of features that RhodeCode has but Kallithea doesn't, e.g pull requests updates, integrations framework How is that a better activity and release?
- shevegen 8y agoIt's a real disaster. People ten years ago did not sign up for a MS github, so why should they now want to stay?