77 ms·

Unfortunately, the Electric Scooters Are Fantastic

290 points by danso 8y ago

1123581321 8y ago
Can the acceleration curve be adjusted to be more in line with bicycles? Or is it feasible to rapidly toggle the throttle to slow acceleration without making the ride too jerky?
- jiveturkey 8y ago
  what brand have you ridden? i've only ridden bird and the throttle is very precise with a good "throttle map". lots of control in the starting off / low part of the range.
  - 1123581321 8y ago
    I don’t live anywhere near these, sadly. Near the end of the article, the author mentioned passing cyclists then being passed again due to the differing accelerations and top speeds. Sounds like it isn’t an issue to slow acceleration to avoid being a nuisance in the bike lane with Bird, at least?
    - russell_h 8y ago
      I've ridden Bird scooters (which are just a modified version of this [1]) quite a few times in San Francisco, and while they can usually accelerate a little faster from a stop than most cyclists do, I've found it easy to just match acceleration with the cyclist in front of me. On flat ground you'll probably end up cruising at a similar speed to most cyclists, though there are certainly outliers in both directions. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-Fold-n-Carry-Ultra-Lightweight-electric/dp/B076KKX4BC https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-Fold-n-Carry-Ultr...
- wycy 8y ago
  I've only ridden Lime scooters so far---I really want to try a Bird, I hear they're faster---but in my experience the acceleration seemed pretty smooth. It was the braking that was extremely jerky and sudden for me.
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  The acceleration is very slow, annoyingly so IMHO, but you can augment it by pushing with your foot.
  - dpiers 8y ago
    This is intentional, and conserves a considerable amount of battery power. Bird specifically instructs riders to kick push twice when starting from a stop. Accelerating eats up significantly more energy than maintaining speed.
deleted 8y ago
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jiveturkey 8y ago
> Unfortunately maybe i didn't read carefully, but i didn't catch in the article what he proposes is unfortunate about it. > can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness? wait ... what?!? a) dorkiness b) essential dorkiness? wow. just wow. it doesn't seem like a clickbait-y sensationalist subtitle. it seems like the author really means it. omg, am i a dork?? i love these scooters. it never occurred to me in the slightest that they are dorky. and in fact, i see all kinds of beautiful people (and normal people) riding them. is this maybe an east coast / west coast thing? Maybe the author cares about presenting a certain adult image, and the scooter makes him feel childish, since yes, they are fun to ride. That's what makes me think it's coastal. I love how the photo shows folks riding without helmets. AFAIK all the scooter companies make clear you must use a helmet (I don't). At least in the photo they are in the bike lane and not the sidewalk. > Doesn’t riding in the bike lane annoy cyclists? Yes, of course. Cyclists are annoyed by most stimuli. lol
- wycy 8y ago
  > is this maybe an east coast / west coast thing? It might be a little bit east coast / west coast and a little bit of a DC thing. People in DC seem to take themselves a bit too seriously, so looking silly during your commute, where you might be seen by coworkers, is maybe more undesirable here than elsewhere. This isn't a dig against DC. I live here and love it. I also enjoy the scooters.
- xenihn 8y ago
  Annoying you (and appealing to those who agree with them) is the author's intent. You are thinking about the article, maybe you'll even share it. The only thing that matters is grabbing your attention, and potentially the attention of people you know.
  - DubiousPusher 8y ago
    You might be overthinking this. I think it's just supposed to be funny. The whole article has an over the top snide style that is probably equal parts serious and jokey.
- 8y ago
rhema 8y ago
>Riding a scooter doesn’t feel like cruising on a Segway to me anymore, but it remains socially conspicuous. In the long run, it seems that ownership is moving towards the cloud model. The same arguments for virtual machines in a server can be used for vehicles and, likely, many other types of physical items. There is no doubt that a pool of 100 scooters serving 1000 people is better for the environment than 1000 under-utilized scooters.
- baxtr 8y ago
  That’s probably what’s going to happen with scooters and bikes. I’m not convinced with cats yet though. I got some stuff that I want to be permanently in the car. EDIT: I meant cars ;-) but it’s so funny, I just leave it as is
  - djrogers 8y ago
    > I’m not convinced with cats yet though I agree - while there have been cat rentals and cat coffee shops, they haven't really taken off like this. ;-)
    - baxtr 8y ago
      ;-) Probably because they weren’t blockchain based or AI powered, yet!
    - DrScump 8y ago
      All cat implementations I've seen are dockless, and many don't coexist well with birds.
  - xraystyle 8y ago
    Cars are a completely different thing. No one really thinks about it like this, but one of the most appealing things about a car is that it's an extension of your personal space. It's almost an additional room in your house or apartment that you can take with you. When I get out of work and get into my car, it's like I'm sort of almost home already. Driving sucks in traffic, but I'm in my own, fairly comfortable space I've customized to my liking that I'm in complete control of. When I take any kind of transit, I'm not done with my day until I'm literally all the way back to my own apartment. Additionally, I actually quite like driving when traffic isn't bad. I'd much rather sit in traffic in my own car than on any kind of public transit. That statement holds until the transit option cuts my commute time by better than 2 to 1. The reality is (at least here in Los Angeles) that taking public transit usually doubles the travel time vs a car. I don't see this changing.
bjourne 8y ago
3 miles in 10 minutes is 29 km/h which is quite fast. Not a speed I would ride my bike in traffic without a helmet.
- tobyhinloopen 8y ago
  Dutch guy here. 29km/h on a bike without a helmet is absolutely safe over here, and everyone is doing it with E-Bikes all the time, every day. Never have I heard of a friend or family member falling from their bike with any injury on the head; A broken arm at worst.
  - ajmurmann 8y ago
    That's because the Netherlands had real biking infrastructure. In the US everything is design expecting people will take a car to travel any distance more than one block, especially in the suburbs where you even might find yourself without a sidewalk at times.
  - mentalpiracy 8y ago
    Small observation: Dutch bike culture is much more developed than here in the US. In addition to numerous separated bike lanes, and your pedestrians and drivers are much more familiar with how to handle traffic situations involving bicycles. Injury from bicycle crashes is one thing, but the biggest threat to scooters and cyclists in the US comes from inattentive or aggressive drivers.
  - mft_ 8y ago
    While I appreciate that the statistics over the value of bicycle helmets aren't always conclusive, "29km/h on a bike without a helmet is absolutely safe over here" seems like a difficult and sweeping statement to substantiate? Are the pavements in Holland more forgiving when someone's head hits them at ~8 m/s? "Never have I heard of a friend or family member falling from their bike with any injury on the head; A broken arm at worst." Well, I see your anecdote and I raise you with my own: I once fell of my bike at probably around 30km/h, breaking my collarbone. Additionally my helmeted head hit the raised pavement stone hard enough to leave a big dent in my helmet. I'm very glad that it didn't have the opportunity to leave the same dent in my head.
delbel 8y ago
somebody should put wireless chargers into the cement and throw some super capacitors onto these scooters for temporary boosts (like going up hill or out of a corner, long stretches, etc)... like the f-zero charging/booster things.
tobyhinloopen 8y ago
So how are these Electric Scooters better than E-Bikes? E-Bike has huge range and make riding the bike at speeds up to 30km/h a breeze.
- wilde 8y ago
  More people feel comfortable riding scooters than bikes. There’s a stigma around “I can’t ride a bike”. There’s also less regulation on dumping scooters than on bikes. ;)
  - kaibee 8y ago
    I would like to know more. I've literally never heard of this stigma.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      I don't think stigma was the intended meaning. I assume the poster meant something like doesn't feel confident enough riding bikes to do so in traffic--especially where bike lanes aren't well delineated and separated. Which certainly rings true for me. I can kinda/sorts ride a bike but I only learned as an adult and would never do so on a road.
- andrewla 8y ago
  I don't know about "better" across all metrics. Just different. Mounting the scooter is easier, they are cheaper (thus theoretically better suited to this sort of grab one and drop it wherever model), they are lighter (which is maybe more important for scenarios where you own it rather than grab-n-go), they are easier to maneuver at very low speeds, and they don't require that you know how to ride a bike. E-bikes win on another set of axes: they are more comfortable for longer rides, they are faster, they have greater range, they are more maneuverable at higher speeds.
  - analogmemory 8y ago
    I took 3 scooters rides on a 3 miles ride to work and it roughly cost me $4 and took ~22 minutes I've taken the Jump bike several times and it usually takes just under 15 min to go the same route for only $2 Faster and cheaper wins! :)
stcredzero 8y ago
can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness? Far less dorky than a Segway. I think they're playful enough to work from a marketing perspective. I was bored with new technologies, bored with their repetitive promises, their glassy aesthetic, their oligarchic subsidization. This sentence is fantastic and absolutely on point! The street finds its own uses for technology. On that first ride, a few things became apparent. First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter. This is a profound observation. Robinson just earned his pay for the week! (A no prize for someone who understands that reference.) What if virtually all bikes had capacitors, regenerative braking, and electric assist? There would be no reason for the endless "momentum hacks" bicyclists are guilty of.
- jds375 8y ago
  Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon (and it’s often someone riding extremely slow). Bikes literally don’t fit on most sidewalks and there are extremely clear bike lanes. Plus you can’t pick up much speed before reaching an obstacle. I consistently see people zooming down the sidewalks on scooters because: they fit, they accelerate quickly, and they are often too slow to be in the bike lane. Personally I think this was the massive failure by these scooter companies. No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. I really don’t think people would be quite as upset if they weren’t constantly dodging scooters going down the sidewalk.
  - codezero 8y ago
    As a daily bike commuter – I see the scooters in the bike lane all the time. I also think they go pretty fast and at the very least are small and nimble enough that I never feel like they're really in my way. I much prefer them to the docked bikes. People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general. Anyways, I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
    - 8y ago
Someone1234 8y ago
One of the reasons Segway failed (and what might stop electric scooter's expansion) is legal problems. A Segway wasn't a road vehicle, but it also wasn't legal on sidewalks either (in many places) leaving it in a legal grey area. A lot of traffic codes have specific rules and allowances for bicycles. They're allowed on the road but without a lot of the normal requirements (license plates, registration, insurance, etc). Segway (and other similar new vehicles) have no such exception, but also aren't eligible for those things. What I am getting at is, in some places, you could get a ticket for using a Segway on the sidewalk AND public road. Meaning it was essentially limited to private property only. That's a problem. PS - Electric bikes kind of skirted around the law by looking and acting like a regular bicycle, and not exceeding their speed. But even that hasn't been without issues. PPS - In some places Segways are legal via exceptions made for electric wheelchairs on sidewalks.
- wrs 8y ago
  Indeed, and Seattle and San Francisco have put the brakes [sorry] on scooter and bike sharing temporarily while they get the legalities sorted out. It’s odd to see those two cities being more conservative about new tech dads than DC, but perhaps they’ve learned something. :)
  - ozten 8y ago
    Seattle has not "put the breaks" on bike sharing. Last year they removed the station based bikes, but there are now tons of bike sharing going on from Ofo, Lime, Pronto, and other competitors [1]. [1] http://mynorthwest.com/977326/seattle-bikeshare-customer-habits-2018/ http://mynorthwest.com/977326/seattle-bikeshare-customer-hab...?
    - oasisbob 8y ago
      The existing dockless bike sharing companies were approved under a provisional permit, which has sunset. The city is gathering data and deciding where they want to go from here: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/seattles-bike-share-pilot-program-ends-this-month-but-the-bikes-are-staying/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sea...
ertand 8y ago
I seriously don't understand how one scooter company could differentiate itself from others significantly from business perspective.
- meestaahjoshee 8y ago
  one difference i've already noticed between limebike scooters and bird is in the scooters themselves. limebike scooters' bells are on a flimsy spring so most of the time theyre broken. the bell is pretty useful for alerting walkers ahead of you of your presence without having to yell. the bird scooters are also able to 'chirp' to help locate them - i've heard limebikes do the same but i have not been able to find that feature in their app. overall i dont think this is an issue of a winner take all market - uber and lyft seem to live in harmony and i take whichever is cheaper. for scooters, i'd just take whichever one is closer, there is no brand loyalty or much differentiation but there's room for multiple players atm.
  - ertand 8y ago
    Uber and Lyft are different than scooter services because they leverage the network affects by the availability of drivers and wait times. Scooters could race to cover more districts and provide high availability but this can easily be commoditized. Also, cities have limits on the number of total deployed scooters within a city. If the scooter companies can get bought by Uber or Lyft, these ride sharing services could also take on the responsibility of distributing these scooters across the city and make them highly available. That would compliment their ride sharing service tho.
  - tlrobinson 8y ago
    > the bell is pretty useful for alerting walkers ahead of you of your presence without having to yell. Just to clarify, you're not supposed to ride these on sidewalks in most (all?) places (though mixed-use paths are probably ok)
- IshKebab 8y ago
  I agree. Bike sharing companies are ten-a-penny. I think they're imagining that there will be geographic network effects - "my city is full of CompanyX scooters, so I'll use their app". I don't know though, seems a bit dubious. Also I seriously doubt they are anywhere near to making even a vague profit. They're charging maybe 3x as much per ride compared to bikes, but the scooters must be easily 10x more expensive and they have to pay people to charge them.
VBprogrammer 8y ago
I keep being tempted by an electric scooter (of the Vespa variety) for commuting . I'm moving a little closer to work which would mean I only need 30 miles per day plus reserves. Unfortunately, the named brand ones are ridiculously expensive (£12k+) and having ridden a couple of Chinese made motorcycles I'm disinclined to go for the cheaper ones (£3-5k). Especially when you consider that even if the fuel cost were completely free on the electric one it would take nearly 5+ years to get the money back given a named brand 125cc petrol scooter can be bought for next to nothing and will struggle to use more than £10 worth of fuel a week. For me it would be an optimum balance of environmental consciousness and convenience though. I guess that is worth something. https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/urban_mobility/cevolution.html https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/urban_mobility/cevo...
- ryanobjc 8y ago
  This is not what the author is talking about. In this case the scooter is a small item that weighs 10 lbs, not a mini-motor cycle.
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    Yes, that is why I clarified of the Vespa variety. I'm aware they aren't the same thing, but it's two wheels and an electric motor. They aren't that different.
    - ryanobjc 8y ago
      surely the 2 orders of magnitude cost difference suggests they are more different than alike?
      - VBprogrammer 8y ago
        A BIC pen can be 5 orders of magnitude less expensive than a nice Caran D'Ache. Anyway, I just though someone might be interested in discussing the merits of electric scooters rather than arguing about how different the two types of scooter are.
kazinator 8y ago
> First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter. This jab at cyclists should be properly taken as representing solely the author's attitude in the role of cyclist. A scooter rider who is late would have motivation to break the rules. All wheeled vehicles, regardless of whether they are motorized, as well as pedestrians, break the rules from time to time.
- clarry 8y ago
  Right. I tend to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs (especially in low traffic conditions) when on foot or bike. I'm sure I'd do the same on scooter. Late or not. It's a shame no startup can disrupt the outdated tech that is traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic going the way they're about to cross.
  - kazinator 8y ago
    > I tend to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs Actually sensible, and legal in Idaho: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
  - vkou 8y ago
    > It's a shame no startup can disrupt the outdated tech that is traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic going the way they're about to cross. This technology already exists, city planners are the ones not rolling it out. Many intersections in Vancouver, and its suburbs are pedestrian-controlled. If you push the crossing button, and there is no traffic, the light will immediately turn red, and let you cross.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    >traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic You apparently don't live in an eastern US city like Boston or NY where people pretty routinely cross against the light if no one is coming (or even if they are) :-)
kcorbitt 8y ago
My dream is that between these and electric bikes, we get critical mass for real, separated bike lanes on all major roads in most US cities. Taking away a lane of cars and replacing it with one for bikes/scooters vastly improves the quality of life for both drivers and cyclists, if you can get high-enough utilization. The cyclists will be safer, and there will be less traffic in the remaining lanes because fewer commuters will be in cars. I commute 9 miles one way into SF by electric bike, and while I love my commute my quality of life would be so much higher if I didn't have to worry about merging with car traffic at several points on the route, or (much worse) cars randomly swerving out of traffic into the bike lane and stopping right in front of me to drop off a passenger or whatever.
- mft_ 8y ago
  Couldn't agree more. On repeated visits to NY, frustrated by the inefficiency of getting from A to B, one of my repeating dreams is the idea of closing every other street (both N-S and E-W) in the grid system to cars, and only allowing bikes, scooters, skateboards, and maybe buses. (Delivery traffic strictly outside daytime hours). Imagine the transport utopia that would gradually develop, as more any more people not only feel safe to ride bikes, but realised that it represented the most efficient solution.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    I think if streets were limited to delivery traffic and construction you would be fine. Note that this needs to be real deliveries. Sort of like pornography I know it when I see it, but I'm not sure I can define it well enough for a law to work.
    - subculture 8y ago
      Time to disrupt the notion of 'delivery': Sign up to drop off a package or two and get access to the internal city streets for x hours. What could go wrong?
      - 8y ago
iambateman 8y ago
Fun read. I personally feel like the dork-factor on a Segway comes from it being ridden with both feet facing forward. It gives the ride an alien-like hovering quality. On the other hand, I don’t judge people on skateboards, particularly because I’m used to the sideways stance. Scooters are somewhere in the middle, but at the very least they don’t make you look like someone from outer space.
Legogris 8y ago
I recently moved to Paris and I was surprised to see that these scooters are super trendy now. The most common riders seem to be middle-aged and older posh women who zoom to and from the metro with their noses in the air. The dorks are mostly seen on electric unicycles.
catacombs 8y ago
I don't get the hate. I get to work in 10 minutes flat compared to walking more than half an hour. It's a convenient way of commuting, especially if the trains and buses are unreliable. I guess the people who hate on these scooters are the ones who can't find one that has enough battery or isn't "offline" for some reason.
- jandrese 8y ago
  Most of the hate seems to come from people discarding them in inconvenient places like the middle of the sidewalk and in the last open parking spot on the street. They're neon colored litter when not in the "nests" or being actively ridden.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  Some of the hate comes from cyclists who now have to contend with scooters weaving around the bike lane, and from pedestrians that have to contend with 15 mph scooters on the sidewalk. The author outlined the problem with sharing the roads with bikes: Scooters accelerate out of a stop faster than bicycles, but the top speed of most scooters is below that of all but the slowest bikes. So if you come out of a stop next to a cyclist, you immediately lurch forward and pass them, only to watch them pass you five seconds later. And it is annoying to pass someone in the bike lane.
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    14-15mph is a perfectly fine speed. Any place that has a substantial % of bike commuters will have plenty of cyclists at or below that speed. Places where all cyclists are fast are usually just places where biking is so uncomfortable/unsafe that only highly skilled and confident riders do it. Meanwhile you look at Amsterdam and these scooters would be faster than average there in the bike paths.
digi_owl 8y ago
Glanced at a TV the other day, and found a program showing off a large sized electric "kickbike". It had the tires of a bicycle, but was operated like one of these scooters. Even seemed to use much the same drive train etc of an electric bicycle.
- jandrese 8y ago
  Basically an adult version of a coaster bike? I guess it simplifies the design by not having the pedals, chain, gears, etc...; but you have the tradeoff of not getting that 100W of input from the rider to extend the battery range.
joshe 8y ago
Jump bikes is my current favorite, the scooters seem a little wobbly and the little wheels don't like road cracks. And I like that they lock up and don't end up in bushes. Biking straight up SF hills in jeans without sweating is like having superpowers. One downside (for SF at least) is the robust market for stolen bike parts. Competitively they are highly advantaged by having the scooters absorb all the hate. The scooter companies ought to make sock puppet companies that dump electric hover boards all over SF.
clairity 8y ago
i've tried both bird scooters and jump bikes in san francisco and really enjoyed them both, to my surprise. the scooters are a little easier to maneuver in traffic, while the bikes are faster and have longer range. my bike was stolen a couple years ago, shifting me to lyft/uber as a result, but lately i've become less enthusiastic about those services. anyone have suggestions on electric scooter or electric bike models to buy? ideally something light (and possibly foldable) for shorter trips (within 3-5 miles) and last mile connections off public transportation.
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  You asked for scooter or bike recommendations, but I love the Boosted Board electric skateboards for their portability and fun factor. However, they're almost certainly more dangerous, and a higher learning curve (though I hadn't skateboarded much before getting one). Just watch out for Muni tracks, gravel, wet roads (especially on metal), and potholes.
  - clairity 8y ago
    those are neat but are not really for me. i can kinda sorta get away with being on a scooter (not really), but i'd look downright silly on a skateboard. =)
- ascar 8y ago
  Check out cycleboard. It's a 3 wheeled scooter with balance based steering. I'm still waiting for mine, but I used a kickboard (3-wheeled non electric scooter) for commuting to school years ago and it's so much more stable than 2 wheeled scooters and much more fun to drive.
tvanantwerp 8y ago
Working in downtown DC, I've been blown away with the popularity of the electric scooters. The bikeshare bikes mostly go unused (unless they end up in the bottom of the Potomac), but I'm seeing multiple middle-aged business people scootering along every day. Never would have guessed it in such a serious town.
vinceguidry 8y ago
Scooter share services seriously are awesome, they bring mobility to the underserved in a way that buses extremely struggle to. They're awesomely cheap, and Bird can add demand to any area simply by trucking in a new load of scooters. I don't know how long it'll last, but normal people can even make money charging them. It's got me considering spending $200 on my own scooter, though I think I'll just use the service until I'm ready to bite that bullet.
- zzleeper 8y ago
  I wonder the same thing. How the hell do the economics of these things work, if users pay almost nothing and birders get so much money daily?
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    They can adjust pricing. What I'd be more worried about is theft. What happens once someone figures out how to disable the locking and posts the howto online?
    - VectorLock 8y ago
      There is no locking I don't think it just makes a racket when you take it when its not enabled. It is a light scooter after all. Apparently there is value in stealing them to harvest the batteries.
  - 282883392 8y ago
    VC funding.
- VectorLock 8y ago
  This was posted on HN earlier this month. Apparently the Bird charging isn't without its downsides http://fortune.com/2018/05/20/bird-hunting-scooter-charging/ http://fortune.com/2018/05/20/bird-hunting-scooter-charging/
  - 8y ago
49bc 8y ago
I’ve driven high-and-low all kinds of vehicles, big to small fast slow etc. I will say by far one of the most fun driving experiences you can have is a small <50cc moped in the city. Stuck in traffic? Get off and push it along the sidewalk. Park ANYWHERE. Swerve and weave. So much fun.
blakesterz 8y ago
Apropos of nothing much... This seems to have the first use of the phrase "oligarchic subsidization". At least the only one that's currently coming up from Google for me.
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  Sooner or later there had to be a catchy term for the new(ish) business model of artificially low, VC-subsidized prices intended to drive all the competition out of the market and create a monopoly where you can then jack up the rent. "oligarchic subsidization" is as good as any.
  - 21 8y ago
    > then jack up the rent But can they really do that? Another VC-subsidized startup can then come in and apply the same strategy.
    - Analemma_ 8y ago
      I don't think they can, which is why I think companies like Uber are massively overvalued and these stupid food delivery startups are all doomed. But hey, maybe my lack of vision is why I'm a working schmoe and VCs are millionaires.
      - Latteland 8y ago
        vcs are millionaires because they invest other people's money and only need a little bit of success. why aren't we all trying to be vcs? lots of failures are just fine.
    - marcosdumay 8y ago
      Whether they can or can not defines if the company is successful or not. Some can.
carapace 8y ago
tl;dr: An inconsiderate jerk gets addicted to electric scooters. > terrorizing its wretched NIMBYs C'mon with that. > I pushed down the throttle and lurched forward. I released it and the scooter stopped, nearly throwing me off. As I tried to figure out my balance, a teenager ran up to the scooter next to mine, activated it, and drove away. I had never felt so old. This is a young person's service. No helmets or elbow pads. > It’s best ridden with one leg on the platform and the other hanging off the side for emergency braking, or fleeing. So it's dangerous. > I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter. Author is an admitted scofflaw. Folks, momentum is the killer. It's velocity squared, so half as fast is one quarter as much "oompf" to cause injury or death. I bike (I don't own a car) and it always cheeses me off to see cyclists pulling dumb stunts in traffic. These eletric scooters are mostly a great idea. It's that margin of failure modes that we have to watch. People being people there are going to be riders who ride like idiots and crash into people, there are going to be people who park them in stupid places. There are already "turf wars" starting among the folks who collect and charge them at night. This article is a puff piece.
- mfringel 8y ago
  Thank you for posting this. I was running low on middlebrow dismissals today, and I'm full up now.
  - carapace 8y ago
    So full you've got one left over for me. Cheers.
- mlevental 8y ago
  kinetic energy is proportional to v^2 not momentum.
  - carapace 8y ago
    D'oh! Thanks.
baybal2 8y ago
In much of the world, a scooter means a lighter moped and not those things people ride in US
pwned1 8y ago
I'm trying to find info on which cities have Bird, but can't find anything. Can anyone help?
- ziftface 8y ago
  For some reason they're listed on this page: https://www.chargers.bird.co/join https://www.chargers.bird.co/join
microcolonel 8y ago
Are Atlantic readers so self conscious about this stuff? I can't imagine being so unsure of myself that a mere electric scooter would be a major hit to my ego.
testfoobar 8y ago
Scooters are interesting on roads. They are dangerous and reckless on sidewalks. Sidewalks are used by all sorts of people: from healthy adults to a wide spectrum of mobility, sensorily and developmentally impaired people. Case in point: handicapped folks, elderly, and children. A 75 year old woman out walking her dog is unlikely to have the situational awareness (visual, audio, and cognitive degeneration) nor the quickness of reflexes to respond to scooters on sidewalks. A collision between a 170lb male on a scooter going 10mph and a 130lb elderly person is going to lead to extensive injury, potentially life threatening, injury to the adult. A pelvic fracture is not an uncommon injury from falls in elderly and is associated with a notable increase in probability of death. Scooters on sidewalks are dangerous and should be immediately banned.
- m4x 8y ago
  Wouldn't a 170 lb runner pose the same risk to an elderly person? In all cases it is the responsibility of everybody using the footpath to ensure they don't put others at risk. Runners should feel free to use the footpath as part of their exercise - but they shouldn't run blindly around corners. I feel the same way about scooters - ride on the footpath all you like, but slow right down around other pedestrians or blind spots so that people both feel safe and are safe.
  - whatsstolat 8y ago
    Running at 15mph, requires some athletisme.
- DrScump 8y ago
  I had a case like this tonight at SubZero in San Jose. A teenager was zipping on a Bird down the wide but crowded sidewalk on San Fernando, zigged right to dodge a cluster of oedesrrians... right at me. The kicker: he had two more Birds stacked sideways on it, sticking out a couple of feet on both sides. Had I not seen him first and jumped out of tbe way, I would have had broken fibulas, ankles, or both. And then what? The dude would just flee the scene. Bird wouldn't take any responsibility, either. I'd be screwed.
lolnumbers 8y ago
Fucking what? The shear amount of imbeciles riding these shitty scooters around DC sidewalks should be a warning of how giving idiots tools like these without rules and regulations will end up in a lot of confrontations. The other day saw a pack of teens wearing sky masks (yes, fucking 80 degrees and wearing sky masks in DC) up to no good around the city, between these morons and the 12 o'clock goons, DC is filled with a sense of "I need to get the fuck out of here, too many low level humans around" One more stupid toys for the underdeveloped, there are almost 10 bicycle companies now in DC, you can find those shitty bikes all over the sidewalks, some without parts, some just saying there, there is already a problem with lack of police control in DC regarding bicycle traffic, now scooters, electric skateboards, mopads on sidewalks, etc, what a shitshow, then you go to Holland and you see what real infrastructure looks like and you cannot avoid crying at what our nations capital looks like... But hey, kids get scooters, should be alright brah!
Kiro 8y ago
Wait, why aren't people stealing these things?
OhDagny 8y ago
I tourist'd DC about 7 years ago and the bikeshare program there utterly transformed the city for monument access and getting around. Faster and closer dropoffs to the sights, getting to Georgetown was easy, faster than traffic most of the time. An electric scooter would be even better. Manhattan too would be fantastic.
joshuakcockrell 8y ago
These scooters are getting stolen left and right in San Francisco. I read the HN article last week about charging these (where they pay you to collect scooters and you charge them over night), so I recently signed up to become a charger for Bird scooters. When I first opened up the app to search for ones to charge it showed dozens of these things[1] that had gone missing in the Tenderloin. I went searching for some yesterday and after being unable to locate about 5 in a row, I saw two homeless guys dissecting one. The electronics were hanging out and they had screw drivers in hand. Of course I didn't confront them, and I went home empty handed. [1] Yesterday I counted ~33 that had gone missing in the Tenderloin within the past two weeks. To put this in perspective, there are only about 75 - 100 of them in the entirety of SF right now if you open up the Bird app.
chris_wot 8y ago
I think the beauty of scooters is because you don't have to find parking.
makewavesnotwar 8y ago
This person has obviously never ridden an e-bike. E-scooters are decidedly dorky. They can't corner well at high speeds. They carry almost no angular momentum to keep you moving forward. The only cool thing about a scooter is that you can easily hoist that 3 lb frame up and carry it with you without a second thought... add an 8 pound motor + battery to that and you've lost all your convenience when you have to climb several flights of stairs... An E-bike on the otherhand can benefit from its girth... it makes it harder to steal if you just add a cafe lock. That weight also makes it perfect for cruising. I can ride 10 miles on convoluted paths without touching my handlebars because of how predictable the ride is. I can ride up sharp grade hills at 20+ MPH without breaking a sweat in 90+ degree weather. And while I'm effortlessly cruising to my destination with minimal effort, I'M STILL PEDALING. It doesn't matter if I'm putting minimal effort in while I'm getting where I'm going, it's still exercise (not to mention way better from the perspective of arterial hardening from unnecessarily standing like a jack ass on a dork mobile). If you want to be totally lazy, get a Boosted board. If you want to revolutionize your shit, go to your local e-bike dealer and get them to hook you up with something actually meaningful.
- pentae 8y ago
  Well the market has responded and it seems your pain points just don't matter to the regular person. You're seriously underestimating the number 1 and number 2 thing people care about.. convenience. Who wants to own something and have another thing you have to worry about and take everywhere with you? When you can just join an app, have no up front cost and dump it on the street for the next person? That factor of convenience beats the shit out of ownership. Regarding handling - do you think someone with no experience riding a bike can 'effortlessly ride 10 miles on convoluted paths without touching the handlebars' or did it take you years of riding experience to get that good? So if you spent that same amount of time riding an e-scooter do you think you'd have handling down to an art as well? I think you would, and how it handles around corners wouldn't even be a consideration. However theres a halo effect at play here which is good news: more people who are using these services who have never used an e-bike or boosted board before after seeing the benefits are now more likely to owning them. Or maybe even just buying their own Xiamoi E-scooter.
- 8y ago
siruncledrew 8y ago
I wish more cities in the US would just copy the Netherlands. It’s like night and day seeing the infrastructure and operation of bikes/e-bikes/scooters between the US and Netherlands. It’s safe, efficient, and actually makes sense. US roads were made for cars. That’s just the honest truth. Cities need to do more than just toss a bike lane on the side of the road and say they are “bike friendly”. That’s not a solution, that’s some half-assed attempt by officials to look like they give a damn.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Yup, painted bike lanes are nearly worthless. Nobody would accept having "painted walk lanes" instead of sidewalks everywhere.
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Painted bike lanes are not uniformly bad. They can be valuable, provided they're wide enough and actually connect up with each other enough that you don't just end up with "can't get there from here" syndrome. Except for the idiots who think they're double-parking lanes, they do a pretty good job of marking a "watch out, cars" zone. Sharrows, on the other hand, are largely slaps in the face. They're put on slow residential roads where I was perfectly fine riding anyways. Or they're half-assed "look we support bikes" icons slapped right in the door zone onto a stretch of potholes that cars run at 45mph. (My personal favorite is when a perfectly nice marked lane dumps you into sharrows right before a confusing intersection.)
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      Painted bike lanes are useful for only a tiny slice of the population: cyclists who are both confident and okay with a fair amount of risk/lack of safety. Most people aren't that; most people are open to the idea of cycling, but only if it feels relatively safe and comfortable, and you can't get that with no physical barrier between you and cars. Nobody puts their eight year old in painted bike lanes on arterials. Agreed that sharrows are essentially useless though. It's not that the idea of mixing traffic has to be bad, but it only works if you have serious traffic calming measures that pretty much force drivers to slow down and drive more safely. Most of the time when sharrows go down, there's absolutely nothing functional changed about a car-dominant street.
evanb 8y ago
At about $3 / ride and commuting both ways, aren't you better off buying your own scooter at about 2 or 3 months? These things aren't so big that you have to keep them outside or in a garage, like a bike. You can take them in and fold it up and charge it under your desk.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  There's a certain value to not managing the thing yourself. My wife bikes to get around Munich, and has to deal with one of her bikes breaking on some way -- flat/leaky tire, spokes broke, etc. -- a handful of times per year.
unicornporn 8y ago
I don't see why I would chose this over a bicycle. A bike will move as far as I need. This (more or less) grinds to a halt when battery is depleted. Bicycle: UX win.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Scooters require less skill to ride/are easier to maneuver, they're smaller and so can be used on a sidewalk less awkwardly and are easier to park inconspicuously. Also, if you have to suddenly "abandon ship" you're already more or less standing upright, which is probably safer. These are really only intended for trips of a few miles where battery life isn't really a concern. If you want a longer trip then yes a bike is probably a better idea.
personjerry 8y ago
Wow, ads are getting smarter
mmjaa 8y ago
I daily ride my bicycle 8km's to get to work, and back. Its pretty good exercise, gets me really awake by the time I get to the desk. However, I don't think everyone can do this. I suggest to my friends, equally endowed with a beerly-gait as I, to get into it to .. but nope. City slickers got no time to ride no bicycle, no 2 or 4 or 10 km's. Pity really, because it absolutely improves life quality, imho.
diebir 8y ago
Riding a bike in the US (cities) is a good way to die. It's silly dangerous.

290 points by danso 8y ago

Can the acceleration curve be adjusted to be more in line with bicycles? Or is it feasible to rapidly toggle the throttle to slow acceleration without making the ride too jerky?

jiveturkey 8y ago
what brand have you ridden? i've only ridden bird and the throttle is very precise with a good "throttle map". lots of control in the starting off / low part of the range.
- 1123581321 8y ago
  I don’t live anywhere near these, sadly. Near the end of the article, the author mentioned passing cyclists then being passed again due to the differing accelerations and top speeds. Sounds like it isn’t an issue to slow acceleration to avoid being a nuisance in the bike lane with Bird, at least?
  - russell_h 8y ago
    I've ridden Bird scooters (which are just a modified version of this [1]) quite a few times in San Francisco, and while they can usually accelerate a little faster from a stop than most cyclists do, I've found it easy to just match acceleration with the cyclist in front of me. On flat ground you'll probably end up cruising at a similar speed to most cyclists, though there are certainly outliers in both directions. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-Fold-n-Carry-Ultra-Lightweight-electric/dp/B076KKX4BC https://www.amazon.com/Electric-long-range-Fold-n-Carry-Ultr...
wycy 8y ago
I've only ridden Lime scooters so far---I really want to try a Bird, I hear they're faster---but in my experience the acceleration seemed pretty smooth. It was the braking that was extremely jerky and sudden for me.
tlrobinson 8y ago
The acceleration is very slow, annoyingly so IMHO, but you can augment it by pushing with your foot.
- dpiers 8y ago
  This is intentional, and conserves a considerable amount of battery power. Bird specifically instructs riders to kick push twice when starting from a stop. Accelerating eats up significantly more energy than maintaining speed.

deleted 8y ago

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jiveturkey 8y ago

> Unfortunately maybe i didn't read carefully, but i didn't catch in the article what he proposes is unfortunate about it. > can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness? wait ... what?!? a) dorkiness b) essential dorkiness? wow. just wow. it doesn't seem like a clickbait-y sensationalist subtitle. it seems like the author really means it. omg, am i a dork?? i love these scooters. it never occurred to me in the slightest that they are dorky. and in fact, i see all kinds of beautiful people (and normal people) riding them. is this maybe an east coast / west coast thing? Maybe the author cares about presenting a certain adult image, and the scooter makes him feel childish, since yes, they are fun to ride. That's what makes me think it's coastal. I love how the photo shows folks riding without helmets. AFAIK all the scooter companies make clear you must use a helmet (I don't). At least in the photo they are in the bike lane and not the sidewalk. > Doesn’t riding in the bike lane annoy cyclists? Yes, of course. Cyclists are annoyed by most stimuli. lol

wycy 8y ago
> is this maybe an east coast / west coast thing? It might be a little bit east coast / west coast and a little bit of a DC thing. People in DC seem to take themselves a bit too seriously, so looking silly during your commute, where you might be seen by coworkers, is maybe more undesirable here than elsewhere. This isn't a dig against DC. I live here and love it. I also enjoy the scooters.
xenihn 8y ago
Annoying you (and appealing to those who agree with them) is the author's intent. You are thinking about the article, maybe you'll even share it. The only thing that matters is grabbing your attention, and potentially the attention of people you know.
- DubiousPusher 8y ago
  You might be overthinking this. I think it's just supposed to be funny. The whole article has an over the top snide style that is probably equal parts serious and jokey.
8y ago

rhema 8y ago

>Riding a scooter doesn’t feel like cruising on a Segway to me anymore, but it remains socially conspicuous. In the long run, it seems that ownership is moving towards the cloud model. The same arguments for virtual machines in a server can be used for vehicles and, likely, many other types of physical items. There is no doubt that a pool of 100 scooters serving 1000 people is better for the environment than 1000 under-utilized scooters.

baxtr 8y ago
That’s probably what’s going to happen with scooters and bikes. I’m not convinced with cats yet though. I got some stuff that I want to be permanently in the car. EDIT: I meant cars ;-) but it’s so funny, I just leave it as is
- djrogers 8y ago
  > I’m not convinced with cats yet though I agree - while there have been cat rentals and cat coffee shops, they haven't really taken off like this. ;-)
  - baxtr 8y ago
    ;-) Probably because they weren’t blockchain based or AI powered, yet!
  - DrScump 8y ago
    All cat implementations I've seen are dockless, and many don't coexist well with birds.
- xraystyle 8y ago
  Cars are a completely different thing. No one really thinks about it like this, but one of the most appealing things about a car is that it's an extension of your personal space. It's almost an additional room in your house or apartment that you can take with you. When I get out of work and get into my car, it's like I'm sort of almost home already. Driving sucks in traffic, but I'm in my own, fairly comfortable space I've customized to my liking that I'm in complete control of. When I take any kind of transit, I'm not done with my day until I'm literally all the way back to my own apartment. Additionally, I actually quite like driving when traffic isn't bad. I'd much rather sit in traffic in my own car than on any kind of public transit. That statement holds until the transit option cuts my commute time by better than 2 to 1. The reality is (at least here in Los Angeles) that taking public transit usually doubles the travel time vs a car. I don't see this changing.

bjourne 8y ago

3 miles in 10 minutes is 29 km/h which is quite fast. Not a speed I would ride my bike in traffic without a helmet.

tobyhinloopen 8y ago
Dutch guy here. 29km/h on a bike without a helmet is absolutely safe over here, and everyone is doing it with E-Bikes all the time, every day. Never have I heard of a friend or family member falling from their bike with any injury on the head; A broken arm at worst.
- ajmurmann 8y ago
  That's because the Netherlands had real biking infrastructure. In the US everything is design expecting people will take a car to travel any distance more than one block, especially in the suburbs where you even might find yourself without a sidewalk at times.
- mentalpiracy 8y ago
  Small observation: Dutch bike culture is much more developed than here in the US. In addition to numerous separated bike lanes, and your pedestrians and drivers are much more familiar with how to handle traffic situations involving bicycles. Injury from bicycle crashes is one thing, but the biggest threat to scooters and cyclists in the US comes from inattentive or aggressive drivers.
- mft_ 8y ago
  While I appreciate that the statistics over the value of bicycle helmets aren't always conclusive, "29km/h on a bike without a helmet is absolutely safe over here" seems like a difficult and sweeping statement to substantiate? Are the pavements in Holland more forgiving when someone's head hits them at ~8 m/s? "Never have I heard of a friend or family member falling from their bike with any injury on the head; A broken arm at worst." Well, I see your anecdote and I raise you with my own: I once fell of my bike at probably around 30km/h, breaking my collarbone. Additionally my helmeted head hit the raised pavement stone hard enough to leave a big dent in my helmet. I'm very glad that it didn't have the opportunity to leave the same dent in my head.

delbel 8y ago

somebody should put wireless chargers into the cement and throw some super capacitors onto these scooters for temporary boosts (like going up hill or out of a corner, long stretches, etc)... like the f-zero charging/booster things.

tobyhinloopen 8y ago

So how are these Electric Scooters better than E-Bikes? E-Bike has huge range and make riding the bike at speeds up to 30km/h a breeze.

wilde 8y ago
More people feel comfortable riding scooters than bikes. There’s a stigma around “I can’t ride a bike”. There’s also less regulation on dumping scooters than on bikes. ;)
- kaibee 8y ago
  I would like to know more. I've literally never heard of this stigma.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    I don't think stigma was the intended meaning. I assume the poster meant something like doesn't feel confident enough riding bikes to do so in traffic--especially where bike lanes aren't well delineated and separated. Which certainly rings true for me. I can kinda/sorts ride a bike but I only learned as an adult and would never do so on a road.
andrewla 8y ago
I don't know about "better" across all metrics. Just different. Mounting the scooter is easier, they are cheaper (thus theoretically better suited to this sort of grab one and drop it wherever model), they are lighter (which is maybe more important for scenarios where you own it rather than grab-n-go), they are easier to maneuver at very low speeds, and they don't require that you know how to ride a bike. E-bikes win on another set of axes: they are more comfortable for longer rides, they are faster, they have greater range, they are more maneuverable at higher speeds.
- analogmemory 8y ago
  I took 3 scooters rides on a 3 miles ride to work and it roughly cost me $4 and took ~22 minutes I've taken the Jump bike several times and it usually takes just under 15 min to go the same route for only $2 Faster and cheaper wins! :)

stcredzero 8y ago

can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness? Far less dorky than a Segway. I think they're playful enough to work from a marketing perspective. I was bored with new technologies, bored with their repetitive promises, their glassy aesthetic, their oligarchic subsidization. This sentence is fantastic and absolutely on point! The street finds its own uses for technology. On that first ride, a few things became apparent. First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter. This is a profound observation. Robinson just earned his pay for the week! (A no prize for someone who understands that reference.) What if virtually all bikes had capacitors, regenerative braking, and electric assist? There would be no reason for the endless "momentum hacks" bicyclists are guilty of.

jds375 8y ago
Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon (and it’s often someone riding extremely slow). Bikes literally don’t fit on most sidewalks and there are extremely clear bike lanes. Plus you can’t pick up much speed before reaching an obstacle. I consistently see people zooming down the sidewalks on scooters because: they fit, they accelerate quickly, and they are often too slow to be in the bike lane. Personally I think this was the massive failure by these scooter companies. No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. I really don’t think people would be quite as upset if they weren’t constantly dodging scooters going down the sidewalk.
- codezero 8y ago
  As a daily bike commuter – I see the scooters in the bike lane all the time. I also think they go pretty fast and at the very least are small and nimble enough that I never feel like they're really in my way. I much prefer them to the docked bikes. People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general. Anyways, I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
  - 8y ago

Someone1234 8y ago

One of the reasons Segway failed (and what might stop electric scooter's expansion) is legal problems. A Segway wasn't a road vehicle, but it also wasn't legal on sidewalks either (in many places) leaving it in a legal grey area. A lot of traffic codes have specific rules and allowances for bicycles. They're allowed on the road but without a lot of the normal requirements (license plates, registration, insurance, etc). Segway (and other similar new vehicles) have no such exception, but also aren't eligible for those things. What I am getting at is, in some places, you could get a ticket for using a Segway on the sidewalk AND public road. Meaning it was essentially limited to private property only. That's a problem. PS - Electric bikes kind of skirted around the law by looking and acting like a regular bicycle, and not exceeding their speed. But even that hasn't been without issues. PPS - In some places Segways are legal via exceptions made for electric wheelchairs on sidewalks.

wrs 8y ago
Indeed, and Seattle and San Francisco have put the brakes [sorry] on scooter and bike sharing temporarily while they get the legalities sorted out. It’s odd to see those two cities being more conservative about new tech dads than DC, but perhaps they’ve learned something. :)
- ozten 8y ago
  Seattle has not "put the breaks" on bike sharing. Last year they removed the station based bikes, but there are now tons of bike sharing going on from Ofo, Lime, Pronto, and other competitors [1]. [1] http://mynorthwest.com/977326/seattle-bikeshare-customer-habits-2018/ http://mynorthwest.com/977326/seattle-bikeshare-customer-hab...?
  - oasisbob 8y ago
    The existing dockless bike sharing companies were approved under a provisional permit, which has sunset. The city is gathering data and deciding where they want to go from here: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/seattles-bike-share-pilot-program-ends-this-month-but-the-bikes-are-staying/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sea...

ertand 8y ago

I seriously don't understand how one scooter company could differentiate itself from others significantly from business perspective.

meestaahjoshee 8y ago
one difference i've already noticed between limebike scooters and bird is in the scooters themselves. limebike scooters' bells are on a flimsy spring so most of the time theyre broken. the bell is pretty useful for alerting walkers ahead of you of your presence without having to yell. the bird scooters are also able to 'chirp' to help locate them - i've heard limebikes do the same but i have not been able to find that feature in their app. overall i dont think this is an issue of a winner take all market - uber and lyft seem to live in harmony and i take whichever is cheaper. for scooters, i'd just take whichever one is closer, there is no brand loyalty or much differentiation but there's room for multiple players atm.
- ertand 8y ago
  Uber and Lyft are different than scooter services because they leverage the network affects by the availability of drivers and wait times. Scooters could race to cover more districts and provide high availability but this can easily be commoditized. Also, cities have limits on the number of total deployed scooters within a city. If the scooter companies can get bought by Uber or Lyft, these ride sharing services could also take on the responsibility of distributing these scooters across the city and make them highly available. That would compliment their ride sharing service tho.
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  > the bell is pretty useful for alerting walkers ahead of you of your presence without having to yell. Just to clarify, you're not supposed to ride these on sidewalks in most (all?) places (though mixed-use paths are probably ok)
IshKebab 8y ago
I agree. Bike sharing companies are ten-a-penny. I think they're imagining that there will be geographic network effects - "my city is full of CompanyX scooters, so I'll use their app". I don't know though, seems a bit dubious. Also I seriously doubt they are anywhere near to making even a vague profit. They're charging maybe 3x as much per ride compared to bikes, but the scooters must be easily 10x more expensive and they have to pay people to charge them.

VBprogrammer 8y ago

I keep being tempted by an electric scooter (of the Vespa variety) for commuting . I'm moving a little closer to work which would mean I only need 30 miles per day plus reserves. Unfortunately, the named brand ones are ridiculously expensive (£12k+) and having ridden a couple of Chinese made motorcycles I'm disinclined to go for the cheaper ones (£3-5k). Especially when you consider that even if the fuel cost were completely free on the electric one it would take nearly 5+ years to get the money back given a named brand 125cc petrol scooter can be bought for next to nothing and will struggle to use more than £10 worth of fuel a week. For me it would be an optimum balance of environmental consciousness and convenience though. I guess that is worth something. https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/urban_mobility/cevolution.html https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/urban_mobility/cevo...

ryanobjc 8y ago
This is not what the author is talking about. In this case the scooter is a small item that weighs 10 lbs, not a mini-motor cycle.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  Yes, that is why I clarified of the Vespa variety. I'm aware they aren't the same thing, but it's two wheels and an electric motor. They aren't that different.
  - ryanobjc 8y ago
    surely the 2 orders of magnitude cost difference suggests they are more different than alike?
    - VBprogrammer 8y ago
      A BIC pen can be 5 orders of magnitude less expensive than a nice Caran D'Ache. Anyway, I just though someone might be interested in discussing the merits of electric scooters rather than arguing about how different the two types of scooter are.

kazinator 8y ago

> First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter. This jab at cyclists should be properly taken as representing solely the author's attitude in the role of cyclist. A scooter rider who is late would have motivation to break the rules. All wheeled vehicles, regardless of whether they are motorized, as well as pedestrians, break the rules from time to time.

clarry 8y ago
Right. I tend to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs (especially in low traffic conditions) when on foot or bike. I'm sure I'd do the same on scooter. Late or not. It's a shame no startup can disrupt the outdated tech that is traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic going the way they're about to cross.
- kazinator 8y ago
  > I tend to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs Actually sensible, and legal in Idaho: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
- vkou 8y ago
  > It's a shame no startup can disrupt the outdated tech that is traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic going the way they're about to cross. This technology already exists, city planners are the ones not rolling it out. Many intersections in Vancouver, and its suburbs are pedestrian-controlled. If you push the crossing button, and there is no traffic, the light will immediately turn red, and let you cross.
- ghaff 8y ago
  >traffic lights, which require people to stop, press a button and wait a minute in an intersection with no traffic You apparently don't live in an eastern US city like Boston or NY where people pretty routinely cross against the light if no one is coming (or even if they are) :-)

kcorbitt 8y ago

My dream is that between these and electric bikes, we get critical mass for real, separated bike lanes on all major roads in most US cities. Taking away a lane of cars and replacing it with one for bikes/scooters vastly improves the quality of life for both drivers and cyclists, if you can get high-enough utilization. The cyclists will be safer, and there will be less traffic in the remaining lanes because fewer commuters will be in cars. I commute 9 miles one way into SF by electric bike, and while I love my commute my quality of life would be so much higher if I didn't have to worry about merging with car traffic at several points on the route, or (much worse) cars randomly swerving out of traffic into the bike lane and stopping right in front of me to drop off a passenger or whatever.

mft_ 8y ago
Couldn't agree more. On repeated visits to NY, frustrated by the inefficiency of getting from A to B, one of my repeating dreams is the idea of closing every other street (both N-S and E-W) in the grid system to cars, and only allowing bikes, scooters, skateboards, and maybe buses. (Delivery traffic strictly outside daytime hours). Imagine the transport utopia that would gradually develop, as more any more people not only feel safe to ride bikes, but realised that it represented the most efficient solution.
- bluGill 8y ago
  I think if streets were limited to delivery traffic and construction you would be fine. Note that this needs to be real deliveries. Sort of like pornography I know it when I see it, but I'm not sure I can define it well enough for a law to work.
  - subculture 8y ago
    Time to disrupt the notion of 'delivery': Sign up to drop off a package or two and get access to the internal city streets for x hours. What could go wrong?
    - 8y ago

iambateman 8y ago

Fun read. I personally feel like the dork-factor on a Segway comes from it being ridden with both feet facing forward. It gives the ride an alien-like hovering quality. On the other hand, I don’t judge people on skateboards, particularly because I’m used to the sideways stance. Scooters are somewhere in the middle, but at the very least they don’t make you look like someone from outer space.

Legogris 8y ago

I recently moved to Paris and I was surprised to see that these scooters are super trendy now. The most common riders seem to be middle-aged and older posh women who zoom to and from the metro with their noses in the air. The dorks are mostly seen on electric unicycles.

catacombs 8y ago

I don't get the hate. I get to work in 10 minutes flat compared to walking more than half an hour. It's a convenient way of commuting, especially if the trains and buses are unreliable. I guess the people who hate on these scooters are the ones who can't find one that has enough battery or isn't "offline" for some reason.

jandrese 8y ago
Most of the hate seems to come from people discarding them in inconvenient places like the middle of the sidewalk and in the last open parking spot on the street. They're neon colored litter when not in the "nests" or being actively ridden.
Johnny555 8y ago
Some of the hate comes from cyclists who now have to contend with scooters weaving around the bike lane, and from pedestrians that have to contend with 15 mph scooters on the sidewalk. The author outlined the problem with sharing the roads with bikes: Scooters accelerate out of a stop faster than bicycles, but the top speed of most scooters is below that of all but the slowest bikes. So if you come out of a stop next to a cyclist, you immediately lurch forward and pass them, only to watch them pass you five seconds later. And it is annoying to pass someone in the bike lane.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  14-15mph is a perfectly fine speed. Any place that has a substantial % of bike commuters will have plenty of cyclists at or below that speed. Places where all cyclists are fast are usually just places where biking is so uncomfortable/unsafe that only highly skilled and confident riders do it. Meanwhile you look at Amsterdam and these scooters would be faster than average there in the bike paths.

digi_owl 8y ago

Glanced at a TV the other day, and found a program showing off a large sized electric "kickbike". It had the tires of a bicycle, but was operated like one of these scooters. Even seemed to use much the same drive train etc of an electric bicycle.

jandrese 8y ago
Basically an adult version of a coaster bike? I guess it simplifies the design by not having the pedals, chain, gears, etc...; but you have the tradeoff of not getting that 100W of input from the rider to extend the battery range.

joshe 8y ago

Jump bikes is my current favorite, the scooters seem a little wobbly and the little wheels don't like road cracks. And I like that they lock up and don't end up in bushes. Biking straight up SF hills in jeans without sweating is like having superpowers. One downside (for SF at least) is the robust market for stolen bike parts. Competitively they are highly advantaged by having the scooters absorb all the hate. The scooter companies ought to make sock puppet companies that dump electric hover boards all over SF.

clairity 8y ago

i've tried both bird scooters and jump bikes in san francisco and really enjoyed them both, to my surprise. the scooters are a little easier to maneuver in traffic, while the bikes are faster and have longer range. my bike was stolen a couple years ago, shifting me to lyft/uber as a result, but lately i've become less enthusiastic about those services. anyone have suggestions on electric scooter or electric bike models to buy? ideally something light (and possibly foldable) for shorter trips (within 3-5 miles) and last mile connections off public transportation.

tlrobinson 8y ago
You asked for scooter or bike recommendations, but I love the Boosted Board electric skateboards for their portability and fun factor. However, they're almost certainly more dangerous, and a higher learning curve (though I hadn't skateboarded much before getting one). Just watch out for Muni tracks, gravel, wet roads (especially on metal), and potholes.
- clairity 8y ago
  those are neat but are not really for me. i can kinda sorta get away with being on a scooter (not really), but i'd look downright silly on a skateboard. =)
ascar 8y ago
Check out cycleboard. It's a 3 wheeled scooter with balance based steering. I'm still waiting for mine, but I used a kickboard (3-wheeled non electric scooter) for commuting to school years ago and it's so much more stable than 2 wheeled scooters and much more fun to drive.

tvanantwerp 8y ago

Working in downtown DC, I've been blown away with the popularity of the electric scooters. The bikeshare bikes mostly go unused (unless they end up in the bottom of the Potomac), but I'm seeing multiple middle-aged business people scootering along every day. Never would have guessed it in such a serious town.

vinceguidry 8y ago

Scooter share services seriously are awesome, they bring mobility to the underserved in a way that buses extremely struggle to. They're awesomely cheap, and Bird can add demand to any area simply by trucking in a new load of scooters. I don't know how long it'll last, but normal people can even make money charging them. It's got me considering spending $200 on my own scooter, though I think I'll just use the service until I'm ready to bite that bullet.

zzleeper 8y ago
I wonder the same thing. How the hell do the economics of these things work, if users pay almost nothing and birders get so much money daily?
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  They can adjust pricing. What I'd be more worried about is theft. What happens once someone figures out how to disable the locking and posts the howto online?
  - VectorLock 8y ago
    There is no locking I don't think it just makes a racket when you take it when its not enabled. It is a light scooter after all. Apparently there is value in stealing them to harvest the batteries.
- 282883392 8y ago
  VC funding.
VectorLock 8y ago
This was posted on HN earlier this month. Apparently the Bird charging isn't without its downsides http://fortune.com/2018/05/20/bird-hunting-scooter-charging/ http://fortune.com/2018/05/20/bird-hunting-scooter-charging/
- 8y ago

49bc 8y ago

I’ve driven high-and-low all kinds of vehicles, big to small fast slow etc. I will say by far one of the most fun driving experiences you can have is a small <50cc moped in the city. Stuck in traffic? Get off and push it along the sidewalk. Park ANYWHERE. Swerve and weave. So much fun.

blakesterz 8y ago

Apropos of nothing much... This seems to have the first use of the phrase "oligarchic subsidization". At least the only one that's currently coming up from Google for me.

Analemma_ 8y ago
Sooner or later there had to be a catchy term for the new(ish) business model of artificially low, VC-subsidized prices intended to drive all the competition out of the market and create a monopoly where you can then jack up the rent. "oligarchic subsidization" is as good as any.
- 21 8y ago
  > then jack up the rent But can they really do that? Another VC-subsidized startup can then come in and apply the same strategy.
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    I don't think they can, which is why I think companies like Uber are massively overvalued and these stupid food delivery startups are all doomed. But hey, maybe my lack of vision is why I'm a working schmoe and VCs are millionaires.
    - Latteland 8y ago
      vcs are millionaires because they invest other people's money and only need a little bit of success. why aren't we all trying to be vcs? lots of failures are just fine.
  - marcosdumay 8y ago
    Whether they can or can not defines if the company is successful or not. Some can.

carapace 8y ago

tl;dr: An inconsiderate jerk gets addicted to electric scooters. > terrorizing its wretched NIMBYs C'mon with that. > I pushed down the throttle and lurched forward. I released it and the scooter stopped, nearly throwing me off. As I tried to figure out my balance, a teenager ran up to the scooter next to mine, activated it, and drove away. I had never felt so old. This is a young person's service. No helmets or elbow pads. > It’s best ridden with one leg on the platform and the other hanging off the side for emergency braking, or fleeing. So it's dangerous. > I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter. Author is an admitted scofflaw. Folks, momentum is the killer. It's velocity squared, so half as fast is one quarter as much "oompf" to cause injury or death. I bike (I don't own a car) and it always cheeses me off to see cyclists pulling dumb stunts in traffic. These eletric scooters are mostly a great idea. It's that margin of failure modes that we have to watch. People being people there are going to be riders who ride like idiots and crash into people, there are going to be people who park them in stupid places. There are already "turf wars" starting among the folks who collect and charge them at night. This article is a puff piece.

mfringel 8y ago
Thank you for posting this. I was running low on middlebrow dismissals today, and I'm full up now.
- carapace 8y ago
  So full you've got one left over for me. Cheers.
mlevental 8y ago
kinetic energy is proportional to v^2 not momentum.
- carapace 8y ago
  D'oh! Thanks.

baybal2 8y ago

In much of the world, a scooter means a lighter moped and not those things people ride in US

pwned1 8y ago

I'm trying to find info on which cities have Bird, but can't find anything. Can anyone help?

ziftface 8y ago
For some reason they're listed on this page: https://www.chargers.bird.co/join https://www.chargers.bird.co/join

microcolonel 8y ago

Are Atlantic readers so self conscious about this stuff? I can't imagine being so unsure of myself that a mere electric scooter would be a major hit to my ego.

testfoobar 8y ago

Scooters are interesting on roads. They are dangerous and reckless on sidewalks. Sidewalks are used by all sorts of people: from healthy adults to a wide spectrum of mobility, sensorily and developmentally impaired people. Case in point: handicapped folks, elderly, and children. A 75 year old woman out walking her dog is unlikely to have the situational awareness (visual, audio, and cognitive degeneration) nor the quickness of reflexes to respond to scooters on sidewalks. A collision between a 170lb male on a scooter going 10mph and a 130lb elderly person is going to lead to extensive injury, potentially life threatening, injury to the adult. A pelvic fracture is not an uncommon injury from falls in elderly and is associated with a notable increase in probability of death. Scooters on sidewalks are dangerous and should be immediately banned.

m4x 8y ago
Wouldn't a 170 lb runner pose the same risk to an elderly person? In all cases it is the responsibility of everybody using the footpath to ensure they don't put others at risk. Runners should feel free to use the footpath as part of their exercise - but they shouldn't run blindly around corners. I feel the same way about scooters - ride on the footpath all you like, but slow right down around other pedestrians or blind spots so that people both feel safe and are safe.
- whatsstolat 8y ago
  Running at 15mph, requires some athletisme.
DrScump 8y ago
I had a case like this tonight at SubZero in San Jose. A teenager was zipping on a Bird down the wide but crowded sidewalk on San Fernando, zigged right to dodge a cluster of oedesrrians... right at me. The kicker: he had two more Birds stacked sideways on it, sticking out a couple of feet on both sides. Had I not seen him first and jumped out of tbe way, I would have had broken fibulas, ankles, or both. And then what? The dude would just flee the scene. Bird wouldn't take any responsibility, either. I'd be screwed.

lolnumbers 8y ago

Fucking what? The shear amount of imbeciles riding these shitty scooters around DC sidewalks should be a warning of how giving idiots tools like these without rules and regulations will end up in a lot of confrontations. The other day saw a pack of teens wearing sky masks (yes, fucking 80 degrees and wearing sky masks in DC) up to no good around the city, between these morons and the 12 o'clock goons, DC is filled with a sense of "I need to get the fuck out of here, too many low level humans around" One more stupid toys for the underdeveloped, there are almost 10 bicycle companies now in DC, you can find those shitty bikes all over the sidewalks, some without parts, some just saying there, there is already a problem with lack of police control in DC regarding bicycle traffic, now scooters, electric skateboards, mopads on sidewalks, etc, what a shitshow, then you go to Holland and you see what real infrastructure looks like and you cannot avoid crying at what our nations capital looks like... But hey, kids get scooters, should be alright brah!

Kiro 8y ago

Wait, why aren't people stealing these things?

OhDagny 8y ago

I tourist'd DC about 7 years ago and the bikeshare program there utterly transformed the city for monument access and getting around. Faster and closer dropoffs to the sights, getting to Georgetown was easy, faster than traffic most of the time. An electric scooter would be even better. Manhattan too would be fantastic.

joshuakcockrell 8y ago

These scooters are getting stolen left and right in San Francisco. I read the HN article last week about charging these (where they pay you to collect scooters and you charge them over night), so I recently signed up to become a charger for Bird scooters. When I first opened up the app to search for ones to charge it showed dozens of these things[1] that had gone missing in the Tenderloin. I went searching for some yesterday and after being unable to locate about 5 in a row, I saw two homeless guys dissecting one. The electronics were hanging out and they had screw drivers in hand. Of course I didn't confront them, and I went home empty handed. [1] Yesterday I counted ~33 that had gone missing in the Tenderloin within the past two weeks. To put this in perspective, there are only about 75 - 100 of them in the entirety of SF right now if you open up the Bird app.

chris_wot 8y ago

I think the beauty of scooters is because you don't have to find parking.

makewavesnotwar 8y ago

This person has obviously never ridden an e-bike. E-scooters are decidedly dorky. They can't corner well at high speeds. They carry almost no angular momentum to keep you moving forward. The only cool thing about a scooter is that you can easily hoist that 3 lb frame up and carry it with you without a second thought... add an 8 pound motor + battery to that and you've lost all your convenience when you have to climb several flights of stairs... An E-bike on the otherhand can benefit from its girth... it makes it harder to steal if you just add a cafe lock. That weight also makes it perfect for cruising. I can ride 10 miles on convoluted paths without touching my handlebars because of how predictable the ride is. I can ride up sharp grade hills at 20+ MPH without breaking a sweat in 90+ degree weather. And while I'm effortlessly cruising to my destination with minimal effort, I'M STILL PEDALING. It doesn't matter if I'm putting minimal effort in while I'm getting where I'm going, it's still exercise (not to mention way better from the perspective of arterial hardening from unnecessarily standing like a jack ass on a dork mobile). If you want to be totally lazy, get a Boosted board. If you want to revolutionize your shit, go to your local e-bike dealer and get them to hook you up with something actually meaningful.

pentae 8y ago
Well the market has responded and it seems your pain points just don't matter to the regular person. You're seriously underestimating the number 1 and number 2 thing people care about.. convenience. Who wants to own something and have another thing you have to worry about and take everywhere with you? When you can just join an app, have no up front cost and dump it on the street for the next person? That factor of convenience beats the shit out of ownership. Regarding handling - do you think someone with no experience riding a bike can 'effortlessly ride 10 miles on convoluted paths without touching the handlebars' or did it take you years of riding experience to get that good? So if you spent that same amount of time riding an e-scooter do you think you'd have handling down to an art as well? I think you would, and how it handles around corners wouldn't even be a consideration. However theres a halo effect at play here which is good news: more people who are using these services who have never used an e-bike or boosted board before after seeing the benefits are now more likely to owning them. Or maybe even just buying their own Xiamoi E-scooter.
8y ago

siruncledrew 8y ago

I wish more cities in the US would just copy the Netherlands. It’s like night and day seeing the infrastructure and operation of bikes/e-bikes/scooters between the US and Netherlands. It’s safe, efficient, and actually makes sense. US roads were made for cars. That’s just the honest truth. Cities need to do more than just toss a bike lane on the side of the road and say they are “bike friendly”. That’s not a solution, that’s some half-assed attempt by officials to look like they give a damn.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
Yup, painted bike lanes are nearly worthless. Nobody would accept having "painted walk lanes" instead of sidewalks everywhere.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Painted bike lanes are not uniformly bad. They can be valuable, provided they're wide enough and actually connect up with each other enough that you don't just end up with "can't get there from here" syndrome. Except for the idiots who think they're double-parking lanes, they do a pretty good job of marking a "watch out, cars" zone. Sharrows, on the other hand, are largely slaps in the face. They're put on slow residential roads where I was perfectly fine riding anyways. Or they're half-assed "look we support bikes" icons slapped right in the door zone onto a stretch of potholes that cars run at 45mph. (My personal favorite is when a perfectly nice marked lane dumps you into sharrows right before a confusing intersection.)
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    Painted bike lanes are useful for only a tiny slice of the population: cyclists who are both confident and okay with a fair amount of risk/lack of safety. Most people aren't that; most people are open to the idea of cycling, but only if it feels relatively safe and comfortable, and you can't get that with no physical barrier between you and cars. Nobody puts their eight year old in painted bike lanes on arterials. Agreed that sharrows are essentially useless though. It's not that the idea of mixing traffic has to be bad, but it only works if you have serious traffic calming measures that pretty much force drivers to slow down and drive more safely. Most of the time when sharrows go down, there's absolutely nothing functional changed about a car-dominant street.

evanb 8y ago

At about $3 / ride and commuting both ways, aren't you better off buying your own scooter at about 2 or 3 months? These things aren't so big that you have to keep them outside or in a garage, like a bike. You can take them in and fold it up and charge it under your desk.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
There's a certain value to not managing the thing yourself. My wife bikes to get around Munich, and has to deal with one of her bikes breaking on some way -- flat/leaky tire, spokes broke, etc. -- a handful of times per year.

unicornporn 8y ago

I don't see why I would chose this over a bicycle. A bike will move as far as I need. This (more or less) grinds to a halt when battery is depleted. Bicycle: UX win.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
Scooters require less skill to ride/are easier to maneuver, they're smaller and so can be used on a sidewalk less awkwardly and are easier to park inconspicuously. Also, if you have to suddenly "abandon ship" you're already more or less standing upright, which is probably safer. These are really only intended for trips of a few miles where battery life isn't really a concern. If you want a longer trip then yes a bike is probably a better idea.

personjerry 8y ago

Wow, ads are getting smarter

mmjaa 8y ago

I daily ride my bicycle 8km's to get to work, and back. Its pretty good exercise, gets me really awake by the time I get to the desk. However, I don't think everyone can do this. I suggest to my friends, equally endowed with a beerly-gait as I, to get into it to .. but nope. City slickers got no time to ride no bicycle, no 2 or 4 or 10 km's. Pity really, because it absolutely improves life quality, imho.

diebir 8y ago

Riding a bike in the US (cities) is a good way to die. It's silly dangerous.