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China's social credit system blocked 11M flights and 4M train trips

203 points by jeffreyrogers 8y ago

davesque 8y ago
> Some provinces play a recorded message when someone tries to call a blacklisted debtor, informing the caller that the person they want to speak with has outstanding debts. And in May, a short cartoon with the photographs of debtors' faces began playing at movie theatres, on buses, and on public noticeboards with a voiceover that said: "Come, come, look at these [debtors]. It's a person who borrows money and doesn't pay it back." Assuming that's being reported accurately...wow. Although I'm always led to wonder to what extent the facts in articles like this are exaggerated in order to portray one of the US's main global competitors in a negative light.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  It is quite the opposite: China is much crazier than the western press makes it out to be. If western media reported things about China too accurately, no one would believe them. You really only have to read Chinese media to get this, reading even state-owned media (like China daily or global times) will leave you with a much more negative impression of China than reading CNN or NyTimes.
  - jeffreyrogers 8y ago
    How do normal Chinese people feel about the things that go on?
    - Mirioron 8y ago
      China is so big and blocks access to information here and there for the average citizen that they might not think that it could be significantly better in the freedom part.
    - jandrese 8y ago
      Officially? The state is always right. In private? I think the government's ever tightening grip is going to explode in their face eventually.
      - TrainedMonkey 8y ago
        Or the power of technology will enable them to repeat the message until public believes it. If you repeat something enough people start believing it. Fun exercise, check out persuasive techniques below and count how many of those China (and other governments) are employing en masse. https://www.mindmeister.com/213923097/persuasive-techniques-and-their-examples https://www.mindmeister.com/213923097/persuasive-techniques-...
        jerf 8y ago
        The inability to instill belief is not the problem... the ability to instill belief is the problem. You instill belief in the place of social feedback, which breaks people's ability to react to the feedback the system is yielding, like "that's too much money being spent here" and "that's not enough money spent there" and "it turns out that while everyone believes everyone believes that the right answer is X, that in fact nobody believes it" and just an uncountable list of other adjustments societies have to make in order to survive. In a hypothetical world where humans were not subject to social pressure and the corresponding ability of social systems to produce situations where privately everybody knows a thing but nobody is publicly allowed to acknowledge it... well... that's effectively a world on the other side of a singularity from us. Presumably it would have its own pathologies, greater ones for all I know. But it would not have this problem of entire societies riding off the rails because it applied ever stronger powers of social coercion to prevent the society from correctly (without reference to any particular definition of "correct") reacting to the changes that occur over time. It would have to come up with its own new pathologies. This scenario doesn't fail when everybody stops believing in it; it fails, and then everybody stops believing in it. (Peer pressure in the modern world is dangerous, and merely "being pressured to do drugs" is a fairly innocent instance of it, because that only does local harm. When you find yourself unable to speak out about your own beliefs to your own neighbors and friends because of the social costs, it's not just a problem for you, it's a problem for your society.)
    - Chaebixi 8y ago
      > How do normal Chinese people feel about the things that go on? That can be really hard to find out. Chinese culture looks down on people who criticize their own group in front of outsiders. So it's bad to truthfully criticize your family in front of a neighbor, even if you do it at home, and similarly bad to truthfully criticize your country in front of a foreigner. For an example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuping_Yang_commencement_speech_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuping_Yang_commencement_spee.... That student was ripped apart and called a traitor in regular media and social media, even though a lot of the things she said were true and often complained about. Add mass censorship to the mix, which denies access to honest options shared among the Chinese themselves, and it gets to be extremely difficult to get an accurate sense of true Chinese public opinion. There are also other confounding factors: such as the CCP not emphasizing the distinction between the the government and the nation. Lots of people might not realize "you can love your country and hate your government" at the same time.
      - kika 8y ago
        > "you can love your country and hate your government" Reminds me of Russia very much. Self-proclaimed "patriots" standard response to any critics of government is "you just hate everything Russian".
        stcredzero 8y ago
        Generalized: Self-proclaimed [X] standard response to any critics of [X] is "you just hate everything [X]". I think it's a standard self-defense mechanism for any meme in the Dawkins sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
        larkeith 8y ago
        Slightly off-topic, but you might want to avoid using "[X]" as a general placeholder - I was momentarily thrown off, as I expected each instance of X to be the same.
        8y ago
    - devy 8y ago
      If you read Chinese, you can usually get a sense from Weibo (Chinese version of twitter), sometime censorship come into play but those are always after the fact.
    - codedokode 8y ago
      If you are interested, there is an interview with Chinese people in the street about this system [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAIKh7AnTIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAIKh7AnTIk
      - aplc0r 8y ago
        This channel is very interesting. Thank you!
    - rqs 8y ago
      What it takes to be normal? I mean, I'm a human being who can type comment and send it online, does that makes me normal? Anyways, I actually asked around about that topic on an domestic Chinese online forum that only had few dozens of visitors, the result that I've received showing that the most of those people who replied are actually ... let say ... not in the opposition of it. Things are vastly different on another domestic website, where most of people are (implicitly) against it. So, it's actually depends on who you asking. And remind you, we Chinese are also effected by echo chambers.
  - cryoshon 8y ago
    this is a very interesting phenomena to me -- the truth being too ridiculous to believe even if it confirms our biases and supports our worldview. do you have any examples?
    - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
      It’s like trying to explain to an American what a 800 2.5ppm AQI day feels like. They think, LA during a forest fire or something, since they can’t really fathom anything beyond that. For the same reason, they can’t really fathom Xi’s cult of personality that his is building, CNN can’t describe it since the reality would come off as bad fiction. But reading Global Times on any odd day of the week, it is fairly apparent that it really is the truth.
  - Jerry2 8y ago
    So why is the Western media inaccurately portraying China?
    - nimrod0 8y ago
      The Western media doesn't know how to portray China, or any foreign country. Everything is a caricature and taken as a mere curiosity or monstrosity. It remains at the stage of minstrelsy and Indian dress-up. If you read serious news from abroad, you'll see this.
      - toomanybeersies 8y ago
        Reading news about New Zealand from the international media, you'd think that it's some quaint rural backwater country, where its biggest problems are picking a new flag and people throwing dildos at politicians. The news doesn't like to report on the growing methamphetamine problem, the youth suicide rate, or the increasing poverty. And why would it? Nobody overseas cares about these things happening in NZ, they have these problems at home.
  - nimrod0 8y ago
    You're giving the wrong impression. Let's parse this a bit. China is "crazier" in that it's different in a way that's hard to explain in Western discourse. In order to analogize for the reader, quite inadequately really, the portrayal becomes "exaggerated" and "incomprehensible". To the extent that what's different and unusual is generally perceived as "negative" -- because if they were positive you'd be doing that in your society -- the portrayal of China tends to be negative. Both views are valid.
  - throwaway505938 8y ago
    If it's that much crazier, why is it whenever I visited China it didn't seem crazy at all? Are they that good at hiding things from foreigners? I should add that I don't stick to the expat bubble and I can understand Mandarin. Reading China Daily and the Global Times, you also get stories about all the good things that happen in China. So it definitely seems more well balanced. Whereas the Western press seems to only focus on the negative and sensationalist pieces.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- AndrewKemendo 8y ago
  And also: Hou Yunchun, is quoted as saying the system needs to be improved so "discredited people become bankrupt." That's pretty clear exactly what they are going for. Not a lot of ambiguity there, but it's unclear if it's a strategy that will have a positive outcome, my guess is probably not. Certainly not ethical in my opinion.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    This gives you a nice feedback loop, because once the person becomes bankrupt, you can use the bankruptcy to (further) discredit them...
    - sitkack 8y ago
      The US has the lite version of this where the poor pay disproportionally more for everything and face harsher penalties for when stuff goes wrong.
  - rdiddly 8y ago
    Can't see the benefit of creating so many losers. Somebody who owes money gets blocked from having a job? Not smart.
    - rdiddly 8y ago
      Somebody who owes money can't take a trip? Kind of smart.
  - Cogito 8y ago
    The article was careful to put that quote in context, which you haven't supplied here. They were almost certainly referring to the system being used against debtors who are not paying their debts. It's not a case of saying "people who have a bad score should be made bankrupt" but "people who are not paying their debts should have so much social pressure exerted on them that they would rather go bankrupt than not pay their debts". Their are situations I can imagine under such a system that are unethical, but I'm not as certain that it's unethical by definition.
- tinus_hn 8y ago
  It’s quite extreme but is it so much different from the US’s system of publicly shaming suspects using their mugshots in sensation pieces?
  - KennyCason 8y ago
    I'm not sure why this got down voted. While I do think some of the Chinese methodologies/laws are a bit extreme, we have similar punishments and rules in the United States. Certain felonies cause people to lose the right to vote or own guns. Companies can perform background checks and not hire you based on criminal record as well. You can also be denied loans and housing based on a numerous amount of factors. Go apply for a house loan and see how invasive that is. In regards to the comment on shaming, we are very horrible about that. The moment you are arrested/jailed, a nice little mugshot of you appears on the internet. This all despite the fact that you have not yet been tried and convicted. I think in the U.S. we should also be challenging our own moral compass a bit more.
  - krageon 8y ago
    I've always found that really incomprehensible as well - it's not something that is allowed here (legally) and it seems like it's basically just mean and nothing else. Why does that even happen?
- s2g 8y ago
  > Although I'm always led to wonder to what extent the facts in articles like this are exaggerated in order to portray one of the US's main global competitors in a negative light. What you should be wondering is how much is glossed over to avoid painting a major trading partner in a bad light.
- lopmotr 8y ago
  I think this mainly seems bad because of the risk of false positives. If someone has a legitimate outstanding debt, then everyone who calls him should be made aware of that - all of them are at risk of being suckered into lending him more money otherwise. I've been stung by entering an agreement with someone who had failed to repay his debts - guess who the next person he didn't pay was? Western countries have sex offenders registers for the same reason.
- Karishma1234 8y ago
  Western media does not get the eastern world. A BBC journalist said it is stupid and oppressive to ban cow slaughter in India. So I asked him if it is oppressive for USA to ban Cat and Dog meet when many people want to eat them. He was deeply offended. Just about last week NYTimes published a piece where they called a certain two penny politician "Prime minister material" so I asked my friend why would NYT publish such inaccurate description. Her response was "he has such amazing english and Oxbridge accent". Indians worship Shiva-Lingam (a complex idol that looks like a penis.) So a Berkley student/researcher. said Indians worship Penis which is weird and is symbol of patriarchy. I asked her if worshiping a cross makes Christians a cult of torture and worshipping a zombie corpse (jesus) makes them necrophillic. Western media has a very different outlook (white man's burden) and will never truly comprehend the eastern culture.
  - throw121312313 8y ago
    I couldn't agree more. It's also quite insulting then they think their opinions are of some universal truth even when presented with evidence. I have seen Americans with superiority complex when faced with an unfamiliar surrounding. They seems to go around talking about how everyone is doing everything wrong and their own culture is without fault. The majority of Europeans I have met seem a lot more willing to accept other cultures. Europeans often have to learn a second language that isn't English and frequently travel to neighboring countries. I think the simple understanding that there is a world outside theirs from a young age makes a world of difference is separating their perceived negative emotions and facts. I am going to get serverely down-voted for this, but look at seanmcdirmid as an example. He almost exclusively posts on Chinese articles on Hacker News. His past comments always paints an entire country as negative. He likes to state his opinions are facts and when saying something mildly racist, he ends is posts with "my wife is chinese". Like that makes any difference, its the equivalent of those saying they aren't racist cause their neighbors are black. I have no doubt his experience in China has largely been negative, but with his attitude I am not surprised.
    - 3131s 8y ago
      I live in Cambodia and I see this all the time from tourists and expats. It's actually stunning how nearly all of them parrot the same stereotypes about the country, even though they've barely spent any time here and have only read secondhand information from racists who came here before them. A mild but classic stereotype is something about Asians and "saving face", as if avoiding embarrassment whenever possible isn't a shared tendency of everyone all over the world. Another favorite is complaining about a "foreigner tax" (raising the price for foreigners), when in fact that is actually quite rare and is only perceived to happen because touristy spots and expat bubbles have higher rents and thus higher prices. This is not even getting into the more malicious variety of shitheads and degenerates that come solely to exploit the country, all while endlessly complaining about and stereotyping the people here.
chinathrow 8y ago
Welcome to dystopia, have a seat and watch. Until you're at the other end of the viewpoint.
gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago
We need to do whatever it takes to ensure this type of system never gets implemented in America.
- Someone1234 8y ago
  People are digitally tarred and feathered every day in the US, even if they don't take part in social media. Reddit alone has dozens of "bullying" communities, where random people are subjected to ridicule. 4Chan is a whole other level. When people take part in social media, they only make themselves a more likely subject of the bullying (e.g. twitter's ability to pile onto someone, like a teenager wearing a chinese-style dress).
  - simonh 8y ago
    Certainly we need to work on the problem of toxic online communities and cybe bullying, but surely industrialised and coordinated state bullying, censorship and humiliation is at another level? Espciallly give the that China has exactly the same problems of toxic communities and bullying anyway. It’s not as if the West has a monopoly on that, so somehow these some sort of balance between the two.
  - gruez 8y ago
    The difference is that those people aren't backed by the government.
- colordrops 8y ago
  Systems that accomplish the same goals already exist in the US, but typically not through official channels. For instance, because of the first amendment, you can't block web sites or censor media in the US. The workaround here is a system much more complex than the Great Firewall of China, and involves ownership and connections with media outlets, influence of editors by said owners and also by threatening to withhold access to key officials, propaganda campaigns, smearing of anti-establishment figures and narratives, planting journalists, internet sock puppet accounts, forum manipulation, AI algorithms for closed-loop influence and sentiment analysis, and social media filter bubbles. In the US, the idea is to achieve the same effect as censorship while convincing the public that they arrived at the desired conclusion themselves.
fapjacks 8y ago
One thing I have noticed over the last year or so is the strongly pro-PRC (but anonymous) posting that happens in HN comments. I haven't tested the waters with a post like this before, so I'm not sure if it will be brigaded. But I'm guessing you'll be able to watch the posts I'm talking about roll in here over the day today.
- frockington 8y ago
  I've noticed this occurring with greater frequency then it used to. It seems any mainstream or close to mainstream article about China will have several clearly Google Translated (or equivalent) comments about how innovative China is in buzzword technology or industry
  - taobility 8y ago
    you are worried too much. Hacker News has not that big impact which get the attention of 50 cents
    - SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
      Doesn't it though, isn't this a forum hosted by one of the most influential funds out there.
    - Analemma_ 8y ago
      That depends on what you mean by "big impact". In terms of raw view count, no, but in terms of prestige and influence, maybe. For example, I've noticed that the comments section for The Economist is one of the places most overrun by 50 Cent-ers; The Economist isn't very popular but has readership among a lot of elites in both government and industry, which is presumably why it's targeted so heavily. The same thing might be happening here.
      - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
        Somewhat off topic: I've noticed that, as a non-subscriber, I can no longer comment on Economist articles. Is it just me, or has that happened to everyone? Given how bad the comment sections were getting, I can't blame The Economist if they closed comments to all non-subscribers. It's a way to deal with the astro-turfers, the trolls, the off-topic rants, and other garbage. And if you want to do it badly enough to pay, well, at least The Economist got paid...
mlinksva 8y ago
Does the social credit system ever charge higher prices to low scorers rather than banning or shaming them? Skimming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Involvement_of_private_companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Involveme... it looks like this might be done to some extent for businesses so I wonder about individuals. To what extent is the social credit system a mechanism to collect bribes, i.e., is it possible to have one's record fixed by paying off the right people?
- zamazingo 8y ago
  > Does the social credit system ever charge higher prices to low scorers rather than banning or shaming them? That sounds like the system here (US). Low scorers receive much higher interest rates -> significantly higher final prices charged
- sitkack 8y ago
  I am sure this could be formalized with a super low limit, high rate credit card.
now 8y ago
That means it’s working as intended, right? Ah, the times we live in!
mathieubordere 8y ago
This makes me scared.
Sol- 8y ago
It's going to be interesting/scary to see how the whole system plays out in the coming years and decades. It's obviously quite dystopian, but what if it works (in the sense that the population will overall be happy with it, not just from the view of a authoritarian government of course), there is no blatant corruption and the Chinese people are generally happy with it? Maybe such technocratic methods of social control will become the norm in many countries? Scary idea for us in the west, but the Chinese model (authoritarian government + free-ish markets) already seems to be a credible competitor to western liberalism, a successful social credit system would be even scarier.
- yborg 8y ago
  >there is no blatant corruption So, carefully hidden corruption would be ok? Because that is what will happen, and probably already happening. If you're a family member of a ranking official in the Party, your score is just set to whatever you like, regardless of your transgressions. Eventually people will become aware of more and more instances of this and the system will actually generate unrest.
- mindfulhack 8y ago
  I like a comment like this. It's free of fear, and knee-jerk response. I actually see your point. Some people may feel a sense of peace by being tightly constricted by behavior that they're taught is OK to do, and what is not. In such a system, there's actually security in there. Some people love not having to decide how to live. But this is what trumps your thought: people in China wouldn't even be able to HAVE the conversation you and I are having right now (about this very meta topic, about how to organize ourselves) - and therein lies the problem. We objectively need certain individual civil freedoms, to even grow and develop as a society. So for humanity's future, China sucks. Its ideas are archaic, and its totalitarianism ISN'T the way to go.
  - sitkack 8y ago
    They can have it, they just can't have it in a public forum where it can spread. Participate in no communicable memes!
cryptonector 8y ago
It's the new Soviet internal passport system.
- Chaebixi 8y ago
  > It's the new Soviet internal passport system. China already has that, the Hukou, and has for some time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Ya, Hukou is just on another level of crazy. But since the mid 2000s, internal migration has been allowed without any hard constraints, you just can’t access social services (like schools) as locals can. Well assuming you aren’t a Uighur.
danschumann 8y ago
We must remember our own narrative: the individual is sovereign; and keep ourselves from collectivism, including a "social currency".
rm_-rf_slash 8y ago
I think some of the fears about such an overt system being implemented in the US or other Western democracies are overblown. A democracy will always feature different opinions and the opposition will always object to a social credit scoring by the ruling party or coalition. The bigger problem I foresee is that other autocracies will see China’s social credit system as a basis for their own societies, much in the way that China proved to the developing world that you don’t need Western-style democracy to be a successful and wealthy economy. Edit: upon reflection, I think a far larger threat for the West is if China starts socially scoring us. Then we’re in trouble. China already owns or has influential stakes in far too many Western media outlets, especially Hollywood. And I can’t think of a single way that the West could stop China from doing it.
nitwit005 8y ago
Seems like they haven't learned from other countries that have had trouble with unpaid debts and taxes. People can't pay their debts if the penalties for owing the debts prevent them from holding a job.
- lainga 8y ago
  The government might not care if they pay their debts. They'd rather kill some chickens to scare the monkeys [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_the_Chickens,_to_Scare_the_Monkeys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_the_Chickens,_to_Scare...
tnuc 8y ago
Perhaps they should be jailed instead? https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/debtors-prison/462378/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/debtors...
- skrause 8y ago
  Imprisoning people who don't pay official fines is normal in most western countries.
  - danbruc 8y ago
    So, playing devil's advocate, why then is it so outrageous to prevent people from flying or staying in five star hotels in order to put pressure on them to make them pay? Wouldn't you prefer being free and not being able to fly over being in prison? Similarly we also have credit rating agencies collecting information on your financial status and they may as well deny you access to certain services based on that information. And yet another interesting field is people being ignorant or simply assholes, throwing your trash on the ground, being really loud at night, all the annoying small things making the world a worse place while not really being bad enough to justify using the usual big judicial system hammer all the time. Doesn't sound that unreasonable that retaliating with a couple of small stings to your freedom could make you reconsider your behavior.
    - _bxg1 8y ago
      I had this thought too. It sounds, just from those couple sentences in the article, like the things people are being denied are only expensive luxuries. Which, if you're in debt, you probably shouldn't be spending money on anyway and it might even help to have an outside party keep you in check while you get your finances back on track. I think the big question to ask is whether these policies are geared to pressure/aid people in getting into a better financial situation, or whether they're geared to permanently punish people who got into a bad situation in the first place. The part mentioned above sounds like it could be the former, but: "...the system needs to be improved so 'discredited people become bankrupt.'" Sounds pretty condemningly like the latter.
rdlecler1 8y ago
Today it’s Chinese citizens. Tomorrow they’ll tracking foreigners outside China’s boarders and they’ll be putting pressure on Apple, Delta, and other international companies to fall in line as well.
- kirykl 8y ago
  If Facebook can't legally do it, China has a competitive advantage, and US firms will start buying up that data for even less cost
- larkeith 8y ago
  Considering they've already been known to pressure web services to remove anti-China sentiments, this is scarily possible.
- Jerry2 8y ago
  China already does that. Twitter and Facebook regularly suspend dissidents' accounts when China asks them to do so. See [1] about Chinese billionaire who lives in the US and the ordeal he was put through. There's also a case of a Marriott Hotels employee who "liked a tweet" about Tibet and got fired for it after pressure from China [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/world/asia/guo-wengui-chinese-billionaire-twitter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/world/asia/guo-wengui-chi... [2] https://work.qz.com/1220881/marriott-hotels-fired-an-hourly-employee-for-liking-a-tweet-by-a-tibetan-separatist-group/ https://work.qz.com/1220881/marriott-hotels-fired-an-hourly-...
peter303 8y ago
Not significantly different from underbanked US people who cant obtain unsecured credit cards or a checking account by have a low FICA score or ban in CheckSystems.
- baumy 8y ago
  Please do not comment without reading the article. > Some provinces play a recorded message when someone tries to call a blacklisted debtor, informing the caller that the person they want to speak with has outstanding debts. And in May, a short cartoon with the photographs of debtors' faces began playing at movie theatres, on buses, and on public noticeboards with a voiceover that said: "Come, come, look at these [debtors]. It's a person who borrows money and doesn't pay it back." It is extraordinarily different.
  - peter303 8y ago
    Please dont comment by reading only one a singles article. https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/ https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/
peter303 8y ago
The other insidious part of social credit is that the score is partially based on the score of your network. That encouranges deeper segregation of the Haves against the Have-Nots. A high score group wont link to low score members,meven if relatives or former friends.
- lainga 8y ago
  Two stars; wasn't a harmonious interaction.
notveryrational 8y ago
Remember the American "no fly list"? How about the American "threat scoring system"? China's doing just fine compared to the land of the free.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
SN76477 8y ago
Assuming this is factual, how long until they have a suicide epidemic?
brisance 8y ago
Where there's demand, there shall be supply. Wouldn't be surprised if there's already a black market for stolen identities on their version of the "dark web".
8bitsrule 8y ago
Hunh. B.F. Skinner lives! Another 5 or 10 years, maybe we'll be softened up enough for that. "We told you 6 months ago to lose the beard. 50 points off your SCore. What do you say to that?" I'm thinking of Topeka in A Boy and His Dog.

203 points by jeffreyrogers 8y ago

> Some provinces play a recorded message when someone tries to call a blacklisted debtor, informing the caller that the person they want to speak with has outstanding debts. And in May, a short cartoon with the photographs of debtors' faces began playing at movie theatres, on buses, and on public noticeboards with a voiceover that said: "Come, come, look at these [debtors]. It's a person who borrows money and doesn't pay it back." Assuming that's being reported accurately...wow. Although I'm always led to wonder to what extent the facts in articles like this are exaggerated in order to portray one of the US's main global competitors in a negative light.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago
It is quite the opposite: China is much crazier than the western press makes it out to be. If western media reported things about China too accurately, no one would believe them. You really only have to read Chinese media to get this, reading even state-owned media (like China daily or global times) will leave you with a much more negative impression of China than reading CNN or NyTimes.
- jeffreyrogers 8y ago
  How do normal Chinese people feel about the things that go on?
  - Mirioron 8y ago
    China is so big and blocks access to information here and there for the average citizen that they might not think that it could be significantly better in the freedom part.
  - jandrese 8y ago
    Officially? The state is always right. In private? I think the government's ever tightening grip is going to explode in their face eventually.
    - TrainedMonkey 8y ago
      Or the power of technology will enable them to repeat the message until public believes it. If you repeat something enough people start believing it. Fun exercise, check out persuasive techniques below and count how many of those China (and other governments) are employing en masse. https://www.mindmeister.com/213923097/persuasive-techniques-and-their-examples https://www.mindmeister.com/213923097/persuasive-techniques-...
      - jerf 8y ago
        The inability to instill belief is not the problem... the ability to instill belief is the problem. You instill belief in the place of social feedback, which breaks people's ability to react to the feedback the system is yielding, like "that's too much money being spent here" and "that's not enough money spent there" and "it turns out that while everyone believes everyone believes that the right answer is X, that in fact nobody believes it" and just an uncountable list of other adjustments societies have to make in order to survive. In a hypothetical world where humans were not subject to social pressure and the corresponding ability of social systems to produce situations where privately everybody knows a thing but nobody is publicly allowed to acknowledge it... well... that's effectively a world on the other side of a singularity from us. Presumably it would have its own pathologies, greater ones for all I know. But it would not have this problem of entire societies riding off the rails because it applied ever stronger powers of social coercion to prevent the society from correctly (without reference to any particular definition of "correct") reacting to the changes that occur over time. It would have to come up with its own new pathologies. This scenario doesn't fail when everybody stops believing in it; it fails, and then everybody stops believing in it. (Peer pressure in the modern world is dangerous, and merely "being pressured to do drugs" is a fairly innocent instance of it, because that only does local harm. When you find yourself unable to speak out about your own beliefs to your own neighbors and friends because of the social costs, it's not just a problem for you, it's a problem for your society.)
  - Chaebixi 8y ago
    > How do normal Chinese people feel about the things that go on? That can be really hard to find out. Chinese culture looks down on people who criticize their own group in front of outsiders. So it's bad to truthfully criticize your family in front of a neighbor, even if you do it at home, and similarly bad to truthfully criticize your country in front of a foreigner. For an example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuping_Yang_commencement_speech_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuping_Yang_commencement_spee.... That student was ripped apart and called a traitor in regular media and social media, even though a lot of the things she said were true and often complained about. Add mass censorship to the mix, which denies access to honest options shared among the Chinese themselves, and it gets to be extremely difficult to get an accurate sense of true Chinese public opinion. There are also other confounding factors: such as the CCP not emphasizing the distinction between the the government and the nation. Lots of people might not realize "you can love your country and hate your government" at the same time.
    - kika 8y ago
      > "you can love your country and hate your government" Reminds me of Russia very much. Self-proclaimed "patriots" standard response to any critics of government is "you just hate everything Russian".
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        Generalized: Self-proclaimed [X] standard response to any critics of [X] is "you just hate everything [X]". I think it's a standard self-defense mechanism for any meme in the Dawkins sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
        larkeith 8y ago
        Slightly off-topic, but you might want to avoid using "[X]" as a general placeholder - I was momentarily thrown off, as I expected each instance of X to be the same.
        8y ago
  - devy 8y ago
    If you read Chinese, you can usually get a sense from Weibo (Chinese version of twitter), sometime censorship come into play but those are always after the fact.
  - codedokode 8y ago
    If you are interested, there is an interview with Chinese people in the street about this system [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAIKh7AnTIk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAIKh7AnTIk
    - aplc0r 8y ago
      This channel is very interesting. Thank you!
  - rqs 8y ago
    What it takes to be normal? I mean, I'm a human being who can type comment and send it online, does that makes me normal? Anyways, I actually asked around about that topic on an domestic Chinese online forum that only had few dozens of visitors, the result that I've received showing that the most of those people who replied are actually ... let say ... not in the opposition of it. Things are vastly different on another domestic website, where most of people are (implicitly) against it. So, it's actually depends on who you asking. And remind you, we Chinese are also effected by echo chambers.
- cryoshon 8y ago
  this is a very interesting phenomena to me -- the truth being too ridiculous to believe even if it confirms our biases and supports our worldview. do you have any examples?
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    It’s like trying to explain to an American what a 800 2.5ppm AQI day feels like. They think, LA during a forest fire or something, since they can’t really fathom anything beyond that. For the same reason, they can’t really fathom Xi’s cult of personality that his is building, CNN can’t describe it since the reality would come off as bad fiction. But reading Global Times on any odd day of the week, it is fairly apparent that it really is the truth.
- Jerry2 8y ago
  So why is the Western media inaccurately portraying China?
  - nimrod0 8y ago
    The Western media doesn't know how to portray China, or any foreign country. Everything is a caricature and taken as a mere curiosity or monstrosity. It remains at the stage of minstrelsy and Indian dress-up. If you read serious news from abroad, you'll see this.
    - toomanybeersies 8y ago
      Reading news about New Zealand from the international media, you'd think that it's some quaint rural backwater country, where its biggest problems are picking a new flag and people throwing dildos at politicians. The news doesn't like to report on the growing methamphetamine problem, the youth suicide rate, or the increasing poverty. And why would it? Nobody overseas cares about these things happening in NZ, they have these problems at home.
- nimrod0 8y ago
  You're giving the wrong impression. Let's parse this a bit. China is "crazier" in that it's different in a way that's hard to explain in Western discourse. In order to analogize for the reader, quite inadequately really, the portrayal becomes "exaggerated" and "incomprehensible". To the extent that what's different and unusual is generally perceived as "negative" -- because if they were positive you'd be doing that in your society -- the portrayal of China tends to be negative. Both views are valid.
- throwaway505938 8y ago
  If it's that much crazier, why is it whenever I visited China it didn't seem crazy at all? Are they that good at hiding things from foreigners? I should add that I don't stick to the expat bubble and I can understand Mandarin. Reading China Daily and the Global Times, you also get stories about all the good things that happen in China. So it definitely seems more well balanced. Whereas the Western press seems to only focus on the negative and sensationalist pieces.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
AndrewKemendo 8y ago
And also: Hou Yunchun, is quoted as saying the system needs to be improved so "discredited people become bankrupt." That's pretty clear exactly what they are going for. Not a lot of ambiguity there, but it's unclear if it's a strategy that will have a positive outcome, my guess is probably not. Certainly not ethical in my opinion.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  This gives you a nice feedback loop, because once the person becomes bankrupt, you can use the bankruptcy to (further) discredit them...
  - sitkack 8y ago
    The US has the lite version of this where the poor pay disproportionally more for everything and face harsher penalties for when stuff goes wrong.
- rdiddly 8y ago
  Can't see the benefit of creating so many losers. Somebody who owes money gets blocked from having a job? Not smart.
  - rdiddly 8y ago
    Somebody who owes money can't take a trip? Kind of smart.
- Cogito 8y ago
  The article was careful to put that quote in context, which you haven't supplied here. They were almost certainly referring to the system being used against debtors who are not paying their debts. It's not a case of saying "people who have a bad score should be made bankrupt" but "people who are not paying their debts should have so much social pressure exerted on them that they would rather go bankrupt than not pay their debts". Their are situations I can imagine under such a system that are unethical, but I'm not as certain that it's unethical by definition.
tinus_hn 8y ago
It’s quite extreme but is it so much different from the US’s system of publicly shaming suspects using their mugshots in sensation pieces?
- KennyCason 8y ago
  I'm not sure why this got down voted. While I do think some of the Chinese methodologies/laws are a bit extreme, we have similar punishments and rules in the United States. Certain felonies cause people to lose the right to vote or own guns. Companies can perform background checks and not hire you based on criminal record as well. You can also be denied loans and housing based on a numerous amount of factors. Go apply for a house loan and see how invasive that is. In regards to the comment on shaming, we are very horrible about that. The moment you are arrested/jailed, a nice little mugshot of you appears on the internet. This all despite the fact that you have not yet been tried and convicted. I think in the U.S. we should also be challenging our own moral compass a bit more.
- krageon 8y ago
  I've always found that really incomprehensible as well - it's not something that is allowed here (legally) and it seems like it's basically just mean and nothing else. Why does that even happen?
s2g 8y ago
> Although I'm always led to wonder to what extent the facts in articles like this are exaggerated in order to portray one of the US's main global competitors in a negative light. What you should be wondering is how much is glossed over to avoid painting a major trading partner in a bad light.
lopmotr 8y ago
I think this mainly seems bad because of the risk of false positives. If someone has a legitimate outstanding debt, then everyone who calls him should be made aware of that - all of them are at risk of being suckered into lending him more money otherwise. I've been stung by entering an agreement with someone who had failed to repay his debts - guess who the next person he didn't pay was? Western countries have sex offenders registers for the same reason.
Karishma1234 8y ago
Western media does not get the eastern world. A BBC journalist said it is stupid and oppressive to ban cow slaughter in India. So I asked him if it is oppressive for USA to ban Cat and Dog meet when many people want to eat them. He was deeply offended. Just about last week NYTimes published a piece where they called a certain two penny politician "Prime minister material" so I asked my friend why would NYT publish such inaccurate description. Her response was "he has such amazing english and Oxbridge accent". Indians worship Shiva-Lingam (a complex idol that looks like a penis.) So a Berkley student/researcher. said Indians worship Penis which is weird and is symbol of patriarchy. I asked her if worshiping a cross makes Christians a cult of torture and worshipping a zombie corpse (jesus) makes them necrophillic. Western media has a very different outlook (white man's burden) and will never truly comprehend the eastern culture.
- throw121312313 8y ago
  I couldn't agree more. It's also quite insulting then they think their opinions are of some universal truth even when presented with evidence. I have seen Americans with superiority complex when faced with an unfamiliar surrounding. They seems to go around talking about how everyone is doing everything wrong and their own culture is without fault. The majority of Europeans I have met seem a lot more willing to accept other cultures. Europeans often have to learn a second language that isn't English and frequently travel to neighboring countries. I think the simple understanding that there is a world outside theirs from a young age makes a world of difference is separating their perceived negative emotions and facts. I am going to get serverely down-voted for this, but look at seanmcdirmid as an example. He almost exclusively posts on Chinese articles on Hacker News. His past comments always paints an entire country as negative. He likes to state his opinions are facts and when saying something mildly racist, he ends is posts with "my wife is chinese". Like that makes any difference, its the equivalent of those saying they aren't racist cause their neighbors are black. I have no doubt his experience in China has largely been negative, but with his attitude I am not surprised.
  - 3131s 8y ago
    I live in Cambodia and I see this all the time from tourists and expats. It's actually stunning how nearly all of them parrot the same stereotypes about the country, even though they've barely spent any time here and have only read secondhand information from racists who came here before them. A mild but classic stereotype is something about Asians and "saving face", as if avoiding embarrassment whenever possible isn't a shared tendency of everyone all over the world. Another favorite is complaining about a "foreigner tax" (raising the price for foreigners), when in fact that is actually quite rare and is only perceived to happen because touristy spots and expat bubbles have higher rents and thus higher prices. This is not even getting into the more malicious variety of shitheads and degenerates that come solely to exploit the country, all while endlessly complaining about and stereotyping the people here.

chinathrow 8y ago

Welcome to dystopia, have a seat and watch. Until you're at the other end of the viewpoint.

gimmeDatCheddar 8y ago

We need to do whatever it takes to ensure this type of system never gets implemented in America.

Someone1234 8y ago
People are digitally tarred and feathered every day in the US, even if they don't take part in social media. Reddit alone has dozens of "bullying" communities, where random people are subjected to ridicule. 4Chan is a whole other level. When people take part in social media, they only make themselves a more likely subject of the bullying (e.g. twitter's ability to pile onto someone, like a teenager wearing a chinese-style dress).
- simonh 8y ago
  Certainly we need to work on the problem of toxic online communities and cybe bullying, but surely industrialised and coordinated state bullying, censorship and humiliation is at another level? Espciallly give the that China has exactly the same problems of toxic communities and bullying anyway. It’s not as if the West has a monopoly on that, so somehow these some sort of balance between the two.
- gruez 8y ago
  The difference is that those people aren't backed by the government.
colordrops 8y ago
Systems that accomplish the same goals already exist in the US, but typically not through official channels. For instance, because of the first amendment, you can't block web sites or censor media in the US. The workaround here is a system much more complex than the Great Firewall of China, and involves ownership and connections with media outlets, influence of editors by said owners and also by threatening to withhold access to key officials, propaganda campaigns, smearing of anti-establishment figures and narratives, planting journalists, internet sock puppet accounts, forum manipulation, AI algorithms for closed-loop influence and sentiment analysis, and social media filter bubbles. In the US, the idea is to achieve the same effect as censorship while convincing the public that they arrived at the desired conclusion themselves.

fapjacks 8y ago

One thing I have noticed over the last year or so is the strongly pro-PRC (but anonymous) posting that happens in HN comments. I haven't tested the waters with a post like this before, so I'm not sure if it will be brigaded. But I'm guessing you'll be able to watch the posts I'm talking about roll in here over the day today.

frockington 8y ago
I've noticed this occurring with greater frequency then it used to. It seems any mainstream or close to mainstream article about China will have several clearly Google Translated (or equivalent) comments about how innovative China is in buzzword technology or industry
- taobility 8y ago
  you are worried too much. Hacker News has not that big impact which get the attention of 50 cents
  - SimbaOnSteroids 8y ago
    Doesn't it though, isn't this a forum hosted by one of the most influential funds out there.
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    That depends on what you mean by "big impact". In terms of raw view count, no, but in terms of prestige and influence, maybe. For example, I've noticed that the comments section for The Economist is one of the places most overrun by 50 Cent-ers; The Economist isn't very popular but has readership among a lot of elites in both government and industry, which is presumably why it's targeted so heavily. The same thing might be happening here.
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      Somewhat off topic: I've noticed that, as a non-subscriber, I can no longer comment on Economist articles. Is it just me, or has that happened to everyone? Given how bad the comment sections were getting, I can't blame The Economist if they closed comments to all non-subscribers. It's a way to deal with the astro-turfers, the trolls, the off-topic rants, and other garbage. And if you want to do it badly enough to pay, well, at least The Economist got paid...

mlinksva 8y ago

Does the social credit system ever charge higher prices to low scorers rather than banning or shaming them? Skimming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Involvement_of_private_companies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System#Involveme... it looks like this might be done to some extent for businesses so I wonder about individuals. To what extent is the social credit system a mechanism to collect bribes, i.e., is it possible to have one's record fixed by paying off the right people?

zamazingo 8y ago
> Does the social credit system ever charge higher prices to low scorers rather than banning or shaming them? That sounds like the system here (US). Low scorers receive much higher interest rates -> significantly higher final prices charged
sitkack 8y ago
I am sure this could be formalized with a super low limit, high rate credit card.

now 8y ago

That means it’s working as intended, right? Ah, the times we live in!

mathieubordere 8y ago

This makes me scared.

Sol- 8y ago

It's going to be interesting/scary to see how the whole system plays out in the coming years and decades. It's obviously quite dystopian, but what if it works (in the sense that the population will overall be happy with it, not just from the view of a authoritarian government of course), there is no blatant corruption and the Chinese people are generally happy with it? Maybe such technocratic methods of social control will become the norm in many countries? Scary idea for us in the west, but the Chinese model (authoritarian government + free-ish markets) already seems to be a credible competitor to western liberalism, a successful social credit system would be even scarier.

yborg 8y ago
>there is no blatant corruption So, carefully hidden corruption would be ok? Because that is what will happen, and probably already happening. If you're a family member of a ranking official in the Party, your score is just set to whatever you like, regardless of your transgressions. Eventually people will become aware of more and more instances of this and the system will actually generate unrest.
mindfulhack 8y ago
I like a comment like this. It's free of fear, and knee-jerk response. I actually see your point. Some people may feel a sense of peace by being tightly constricted by behavior that they're taught is OK to do, and what is not. In such a system, there's actually security in there. Some people love not having to decide how to live. But this is what trumps your thought: people in China wouldn't even be able to HAVE the conversation you and I are having right now (about this very meta topic, about how to organize ourselves) - and therein lies the problem. We objectively need certain individual civil freedoms, to even grow and develop as a society. So for humanity's future, China sucks. Its ideas are archaic, and its totalitarianism ISN'T the way to go.
- sitkack 8y ago
  They can have it, they just can't have it in a public forum where it can spread. Participate in no communicable memes!

cryptonector 8y ago

It's the new Soviet internal passport system.

Chaebixi 8y ago
> It's the new Soviet internal passport system. China already has that, the Hukou, and has for some time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Ya, Hukou is just on another level of crazy. But since the mid 2000s, internal migration has been allowed without any hard constraints, you just can’t access social services (like schools) as locals can. Well assuming you aren’t a Uighur.

danschumann 8y ago

We must remember our own narrative: the individual is sovereign; and keep ourselves from collectivism, including a "social currency".

rm_-rf_slash 8y ago

I think some of the fears about such an overt system being implemented in the US or other Western democracies are overblown. A democracy will always feature different opinions and the opposition will always object to a social credit scoring by the ruling party or coalition. The bigger problem I foresee is that other autocracies will see China’s social credit system as a basis for their own societies, much in the way that China proved to the developing world that you don’t need Western-style democracy to be a successful and wealthy economy. Edit: upon reflection, I think a far larger threat for the West is if China starts socially scoring us. Then we’re in trouble. China already owns or has influential stakes in far too many Western media outlets, especially Hollywood. And I can’t think of a single way that the West could stop China from doing it.

nitwit005 8y ago

Seems like they haven't learned from other countries that have had trouble with unpaid debts and taxes. People can't pay their debts if the penalties for owing the debts prevent them from holding a job.

lainga 8y ago
The government might not care if they pay their debts. They'd rather kill some chickens to scare the monkeys [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_the_Chickens,_to_Scare_the_Monkeys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_the_Chickens,_to_Scare...

tnuc 8y ago

Perhaps they should be jailed instead? https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/debtors-prison/462378/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/debtors...

skrause 8y ago
Imprisoning people who don't pay official fines is normal in most western countries.
- danbruc 8y ago
  So, playing devil's advocate, why then is it so outrageous to prevent people from flying or staying in five star hotels in order to put pressure on them to make them pay? Wouldn't you prefer being free and not being able to fly over being in prison? Similarly we also have credit rating agencies collecting information on your financial status and they may as well deny you access to certain services based on that information. And yet another interesting field is people being ignorant or simply assholes, throwing your trash on the ground, being really loud at night, all the annoying small things making the world a worse place while not really being bad enough to justify using the usual big judicial system hammer all the time. Doesn't sound that unreasonable that retaliating with a couple of small stings to your freedom could make you reconsider your behavior.
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    I had this thought too. It sounds, just from those couple sentences in the article, like the things people are being denied are only expensive luxuries. Which, if you're in debt, you probably shouldn't be spending money on anyway and it might even help to have an outside party keep you in check while you get your finances back on track. I think the big question to ask is whether these policies are geared to pressure/aid people in getting into a better financial situation, or whether they're geared to permanently punish people who got into a bad situation in the first place. The part mentioned above sounds like it could be the former, but: "...the system needs to be improved so 'discredited people become bankrupt.'" Sounds pretty condemningly like the latter.

rdlecler1 8y ago

Today it’s Chinese citizens. Tomorrow they’ll tracking foreigners outside China’s boarders and they’ll be putting pressure on Apple, Delta, and other international companies to fall in line as well.

kirykl 8y ago
If Facebook can't legally do it, China has a competitive advantage, and US firms will start buying up that data for even less cost
larkeith 8y ago
Considering they've already been known to pressure web services to remove anti-China sentiments, this is scarily possible.
Jerry2 8y ago
China already does that. Twitter and Facebook regularly suspend dissidents' accounts when China asks them to do so. See [1] about Chinese billionaire who lives in the US and the ordeal he was put through. There's also a case of a Marriott Hotels employee who "liked a tweet" about Tibet and got fired for it after pressure from China [2]. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/world/asia/guo-wengui-chinese-billionaire-twitter.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/world/asia/guo-wengui-chi... [2] https://work.qz.com/1220881/marriott-hotels-fired-an-hourly-employee-for-liking-a-tweet-by-a-tibetan-separatist-group/ https://work.qz.com/1220881/marriott-hotels-fired-an-hourly-...

peter303 8y ago

Not significantly different from underbanked US people who cant obtain unsecured credit cards or a checking account by have a low FICA score or ban in CheckSystems.

baumy 8y ago
Please do not comment without reading the article. > Some provinces play a recorded message when someone tries to call a blacklisted debtor, informing the caller that the person they want to speak with has outstanding debts. And in May, a short cartoon with the photographs of debtors' faces began playing at movie theatres, on buses, and on public noticeboards with a voiceover that said: "Come, come, look at these [debtors]. It's a person who borrows money and doesn't pay it back." It is extraordinarily different.
- peter303 8y ago
  Please dont comment by reading only one a singles article. https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/ https://www.wired.com/story/age-of-social-credit/

peter303 8y ago

The other insidious part of social credit is that the score is partially based on the score of your network. That encouranges deeper segregation of the Haves against the Have-Nots. A high score group wont link to low score members,meven if relatives or former friends.

lainga 8y ago
Two stars; wasn't a harmonious interaction.

notveryrational 8y ago

Remember the American "no fly list"? How about the American "threat scoring system"? China's doing just fine compared to the land of the free.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

SN76477 8y ago

Assuming this is factual, how long until they have a suicide epidemic?

brisance 8y ago

Where there's demand, there shall be supply. Wouldn't be surprised if there's already a black market for stolen identities on their version of the "dark web".

8bitsrule 8y ago

Hunh. B.F. Skinner lives! Another 5 or 10 years, maybe we'll be softened up enough for that. "We told you 6 months ago to lose the beard. 50 points off your SCore. What do you say to that?" I'm thinking of Topeka in A Boy and His Dog.