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CBS “60 Minutes” piece on Google’s abuse of dominance

321 points by ericzawo 8y ago

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
60 Minutes didn't reveal anything here a lot of us don't already know, there wasn't any hard-hitting journalism or incredible revelations. But given 60 Minutes reaches millions of people, it's probably massively raised awareness of these issues with a significant number of people who don't generally follow tech explicitly.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > 60 Minutes didn't reveal anything here a lot of us don't already know In my experience, 60 Minutes is less about breaking news than competently explaining it. The tech community, as a whole, is generally bad at communicating its non-commercial preferences. This issue is no exception.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    I don't think it served well as completely explaining it, because Android and Chrome were only cursory mentions, and I'd argue they're both critical to Google's ability to control the Internet, while each also being monopolies in their own right.
    - anchpop 8y ago
      In what sense is Chrome a monopoly?
      - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
        It has an exceedingly dominant market share (FYI: Being a monopoly does not require "zero alternatives exist". Merely that those alternatives are at the mercy of the main one), which it uses to direct and control Internet protocols in the way it finds most beneficial to Google. All new Internet protocols and 'standards' proposed by Google come with the implied threat that Google will do it anyways, since often Google implements it in Chrome before it is a standard, leaving everyone else to accept it or be rendered incompatible with Google, who has control of most of the Internet. A significant number of websites now only test against Chrome and only support Chrome, leaving really only one option, often, when trying to interact with a given Internet entity. And Chrome isn't just a monopoly, it's a monopoly they illegally use to manipulate the market and boost their other products. For instance, while competing search engines can bid for default placement on Firefox, Google gives it's own search engine exclusive rights to be default there, the monopoly search engine on the monopoly browser. Recently, Google even introduced a method for banning competitors ads into Chrome, rendering Google ads the only "sure thing" for not having your ads arbitrarily blocked by Google. Chrome is one of the clearest examples of why Google must be broken up. It's Ad/Search business cannot own platforms like Chrome and Android.
        true_religion 8y ago
        Your working definition of what an illegal anti-competitive use of monopoly power is seems to be the reverse of what I've heard before. Under your definition, Chrome is supporting the even stronger pre-existing monopoly Google has on search or ads, and therefore is bad. Usually anti-competitive actions are seen as a player using its monopoly to support emergence into a new market, not to build a moat around an existing market they already are dominant in. For example, under your framing, Microsoft's usage of Internet Explorer would have been bad not because it came pre-installed with Windows, but because it was Windows-only (or worked best on Windows) thus supporting the existing Windows monopoly. I don't know if this reasoning can hold legally---merely because I have never seen it used before.
        ocdtrekkie 8y ago
        The general concept of tying relates to connecting unrelated products, and using control of one to benefit the other. I'm doubtful the claim "the other product is already also a monopoly" is a usable defense for this practice's illegality.
- mark_l_watson 8y ago
  60 Minutes lost me as a viewer 25 years ago. They did a hit piece on someone who I worked with that was flat out untrue. Many people at work knew the details and agreed. That one experience made me view anything I see on TV with a healthy dose of scepticism.
  - potatote 8y ago
    I agree with you about not trusting anything we see on TV/Newspapers (even if it is from 60 Minutes; NYT; whatever-is-reputed-to-be-reliable). I grew up in Myanmar and after reading a lot of one-sided coverage about the refugee issue there (labeled as 'genocide'), I realized it's impossible for news organizations to be almost always impartial and accurate. They have to obtain information from some source. Almost always, that source of information can mislead the reporter/news writer easily because of the latter's lack of familiarity with the issue, the region or the culture. The reporter, on the other hand, works against time. Plus, s/he is, after all, human (susceptible to persuasion/personal biases and worse, is sometimes too lazy to do a fact-check and more importantly, to hear the voices from the other side). As most things in life, the truth is always in somewhere the middle.
    - frockington 8y ago
      Especially since now sources are "someone familiar with their thinking". Why the media thinks that is a reputable source is beyond me and is why I've completely stopped watching television news
      - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
        The challenge is that when you're reporting on companies with legendarily strict NDAs and entire security teams dedicated to finding leaks and snuffing them out, news is going to come predominantly from confidential sources. For example, in the Theranos segment that followed the Google segment on this week's 60 Minutes, the Theranos employee who first ratted them out stated that he used a fake name when he first contacted the government because he feared reprisal. Presumably, reporters are supposed to seek adequate proof or confirmation of what they hear from "sources", and we are supposed to be able to trust that they did that job adequately or at least, they are reporting the news as they believe it, until confirmation is available in the form of an official investigation.
willart4food 8y ago
Yelp is not that innocent either, their "practices" are just as questionable, if not more questionable, than Google's.
- deleted 8y ago
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- sitkack 8y ago
  Not meant as an "and you ..." fallacy, nor to distract from article, but. The shakedown to not have competitor's ads displayed on "Your Yelp Page" is fking deplorable. It could be a whole lot of fun to be Attorney General.
- seltzered_ 8y ago
  Only sharing for reference, you reminded me that someone made a documentary ('billion dollar bully') about this (not released yet, but supposedly being premiered soon): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_Dollar_Bully https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_Dollar_Bully http://www.prostfilms.com/ http://www.prostfilms.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHEbVh3Yhrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHEbVh3Yhrw (recent interview with the film creator)
  - annexrichmond 8y ago
    The creator has been saying it will be released "soon" for years. Pretty sure it flopped.
    - seltzered_ 8y ago
      FWIW, They talk about the delays at 19m23s in the interview I linked. From staring at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299637435/billion-dollar-bully/posts/1873596 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299637435/billion-doll... I’d guess they’re still looking for or going through a distributor.
deleted 8y ago
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lawrenceyan 8y ago
It honestly sounds like Yelp is just salty at the fact that their SEO marketing isn't as effective as it used to be because of Google's improvement to their search engine algorithms. Also, it's laughable that of all companies, Yelp is the one complaining about Google.
- annexrichmond 8y ago
  TripAdvisor is also not happy: https://www.recode.net/2016/8/6/12393586/google-yelp-tripadvisor-must-try-search-results https://www.recode.net/2016/8/6/12393586/google-yelp-tripadv...
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  >>because of Google's improvement to their search engine algorithms. "Improvement": Post Google's own offering first and also fill page with ads to keep users within Google's own sites.
  - lawrenceyan 8y ago
    It might just be my opinion, but I find the user experience to be far better now that I can search for food basically directly on Google Maps. Yelp's UI is pretty janky, especially when I always end up just pasting the address I find on Yelp back into Google Maps at the end of the day so I can drive to the place.
- adventured 8y ago
  It's pretty obvious Google has moved against the best interests of consumers, by their own admission. They now insert ads into the top of the search flow, commingling results and ads, something their founders correctly proclaimed in the early days to be fundamentally anti user experience. When faced with mobile (and no right side area to allocate ads), they chose to violate their earliest of principles and decided the money mattered a lot more than providing the best product for the consumer. It's merely one example of many that Google isn't acting in the best interest of the consumer with their search monopoly. Yelp can be salty and simultaneously Google can be an abusive monopoly. Sun and Oracle were two of the loudest complainers about Microsoft. It doesn't mean they were wrong, despite their own at times shitty behavior.
marban 8y ago
Using Google Cache now since the site is down...
- marban 8y ago
  Direct video link: https://www.cbsnews.com/video/how-did-google-get-so-big/ https://www.cbsnews.com/video/how-did-google-get-so-big/
picsao 8y ago
They still make those reports on single companies? How about the Fonds who have majoritys on whole industries. Google abuses its power but all of its revenue comes from one source. It's a brittle giant. A pension fond can freeze whole industries innovation cycle to reduce that pesky market volatility.
marban 8y ago
The whole piece looks & feels like a documentary that could have been aired during the Dotcom bubble. Looking forward to watching this in twenty years from now.
firefoxd 8y ago
Search results are become a google product. Just as restaurants have turn into yelp products. I can't say it was all their secret goal from the beginning, but it now is.
- whoisjuan 8y ago
  Are becoming? ...How else do you think they have been making money all these years? It’s their oldest and most profitable product and it’s called AdWords. The foundation of what we know as Google.
  - houstoncorridor 8y ago
    Yeah. I consider Google to be first and foremost very much an ad company. Search is just the vehicle they use to fill their shelves with product, "you" that they're selling to advertisers.
kodablah 8y ago
Mainstream media story about web company? Check. Nothing new? Check. Negative? Check. Of course Yelp participated...but Yelp angle aside, CBS is just following the news cycle patterns of their brethren. I'm mentioning this a lot these days, but feels like watching cattle being herded (albeit willingly).
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  There is a prevailing "tech can do no wrong" attitude in the tech community, and it absolutely needs to be challenged hard.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    > There is a prevailing "tech can do no wrong" attitude in the tech community Is there? I see the opposite in communities including the one we're on. The anti-big-web-company torches seem brightest within compared to the more accepting yet non-ignorant outside.
    - majewsky 8y ago
      I think it's not quite "tech can do no wrong", but "all problems can be solved with tech" is definitely prevalent. I guess it's because we're all tech guys here and "if you only have a hammer...".
      - KozmoNau7 8y ago
        Yeah, that's a better way of putting it. Way too many people in tech are completely blinded to its limitations and inherent problems.
      - jacksmith21006 8y ago
        But you need to use valid examples which the Yelp one is not. Yelp is terrible so not high on the search results like it should be. But then do a product search and Amazon a top result returned even though Amazon banned any company on their market place from selling a bunch of Google products. It is just Yelp sour grapes. If going to accuse Google think you might use a valid example.
telltruth 8y ago
CBS interview leaves out critical details. Initially, Google was scrapping Yelp reviews to show snippets in their Google Places product. Yelp CEO didn't liked that and demanded to remove all snippets. Google said it had right to show snippets like any other websites and if Yelp says their content is "private" then Google shouldn't be crawling them at all. That's what they did. This caused Yelp to disappear from Google and their traffic tanked. So after this some deal was reached. Eventually, Google just decided to do their own reviews and started showing them in Google Maps. Yelp then started this PR war that is now going on for years. Personally, I don't think Google should be obliged to promote all kind of crappy 2nd rate products out there. I hate Yelp. They are greedy bastards who have cornered up huge content entirely contributed by volunteers. They are the ones wanting to monopolize market in this area and avoid having Google as player here. They are the ones who want big price for their theft from millions of hours donated by volunteers. Yelp reviews and ratings should be free and in open domain by vary nature of how it was created (and so should be Amazon's review - but at least they are not entirely volunteers driven website). On the top of this, Yelp has remained mostly stagnant waiting for their big payout day. I don't consider them good for users or internet or industry. So for me this is pick between the worse evil. The debate is so very similar to IE on Windows, however. Should Microsoft be prevented from creating better[1] browser and not allowed to complete with Netscape? Should they be prevented from putting their integrated polished experience in front and center that benefits the customers? One can say that suing Microsoft actually worked out best overall for industry. I'm not too sure how alternate world would have looked like. History certainly rhymes here. [1] You can say whatever about IE's lack of implementing proper standards but it was the fastest browser in its day. It was truly free no strings attached (as long as you are on Windows) and it advanced many things, for example, it was the first browser to implement CSS, XML parsing and tons of functionality that is now part of HTML5 standards.
- mattmanser 8y ago
  One company doesn't get to unilaterally decide what is 'fair'.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
RRL 8y ago
Yelp has a point. Google, and largely Larry Page's insistence on shortening the time between query and answer is starting to stumble under the reality that the source data Google utilizes for its own services isn't the best there is as Yelp rightly laid out. It may be wise for Google to back off on some touchy verticals or to integrate 3rd party data sources to stymie any attempts by regulators to flex. This is the perfect populist opportunity for any public official to run on. Maybe this will take some of the heat off of Amazon for a minute.
greggman 8y ago
Yelp is crying sour grapes here. There are so many ways they could have innovated to stay relevant but has anything changed in years there? They could have hired professional reviewers. Yelp reviews are notoriously bad. They could have let you choose what you prefer, example (quality vs quantity) and given you custom ratings or only included reviews from people that share similar tastes. Following up on the last idea They could have tried to auto cluster reviewers. (people who rated these 5 places as having good taste also liked ...) the could have scanned menus so you could ask "where can I get a pepperoni pizza at 3am" instead of at best being able to look up "pizza" and figure the rest out yourself. How about "where can I get a table for 10". How about partner with as many restaurants as possible so I can ask "who's still got a table for 4 for steak and win between 7 and 9pm tonight" And maybe nothing would save them but I at least for me reviews make sense on Google maps. That yelp couldn't see their audience was going to dry up seems no different than newspaper classifieds and Craigslist. Their quality certainly isn't better so ATM there is zero reason to go there.
- camillomiller 8y ago
  You might be right, but a company’s abuse of dominant position isn’t defined by the quality of their competitor’s offer.
  - sunstone 8y ago
    Yelp has been horrible since day one. If google has or has not abused its position Yelp is not the standard we would use to determine that.
    - camillomiller 8y ago
      This makes no sense. Yelp could be the worst company ever created, but if they had market share and Google worked to seize that market with unfair practices, that counts as abuse of dominant position. There is a dangerous conflation of two very distinct categories in your line of thought.
      - 8y ago
modi15 8y ago
The problem is not Google. The problem is that the government is unable to get his head around an internet based monopoly. Google shouldnt be allowed to host more than 50% of searches by law. In any other industry enjoying a monopoly position in search as google has enjoyed all these years would have reason enough to break it up into smaller pieces.
- themagician 8y ago
  What?! How does that work? How does Google “host” searches? 70% of searches go to Google because 70% of people type in “google”. The other 30% open IE/Edge and use Bing to search for google. Are you suggesting that when someone types in “google.com” it redirect them?
  - realusername 8y ago
    The vast majority of browsers are still defaulting to Google, you used almost the only example (IE/Edge) which does not do that.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      Microsoft could easily outbid Google to be the primary search engine on iOS and they could pay carriers to make Bing the primary search engines on the Android phones they sell.
      - mrep 8y ago
        Yep, and mozilla makes almost all of its revenue from google by setting the default search engine to google: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Financing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Financing I find this funny since Google directly finances a competing browser.
        scarface74 8y ago
        Neither Firefox nor iOS are “competitors” for Google. Google’s main business is advertising and collecting data. Both Chrome and Android are means to that end. Google wants to be wherever the users are, whether that’s on Android, iOS, Chrome, or Firefox. For years, Google made more money on iOS than Android even after Androids market share eclipsed iOS’s market share.
latenightcoding 8y ago
Google recently started showing job postings in their search results (at least here in Canada). I suppose this will affect indeed.com, monster.com, and a site I had stake in. I love monetizing niche search engines and other data products, but it looks like Google will eventually get into any industry where the main source of traffic is organic search, I wonder what is next.
- xapata 8y ago
  They struck deals with a number of job sites to get that data. It's not as one-sided as it might seem.
  - zeusk 8y ago
    Until they no longer need that data because they "harvest" it themselves.
T3RMINATED 8y ago
lycos, hotbot, ask, duckduckgo and more exist its your fault you dont use them... google is just better.. I would never Bing or Yahoo search because their algorithm sucks - google a stackoverflow question you get it right away and on bing its like on page 2... google forever!
krn 8y ago
When I want to buy something, I type "amazon.com", not "google.com". So, why don't I type "yelp.com", when I want to go somewhere? There is nothing to complain about, when your product sucks.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  > When I want to buy something, I type "amazon.com", not "google.com". I do the exact opposite, I either search a specific business' site or Google something vague like "sturdy cargo pants," find a brand / store that I like and visit that store. I've been burned too many times by cheap, fake shit from Amazon. I'm not willing to deal with the hassle and wasted time.
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    Same. I start on Google and then usually buy on Amazon. Google has the Amazon links like they should and it is high on the list even though Amazon is Google chief competitor. Reason being Amazon is popular and offers a great service. Versus Yelp is horrible so not high on the list. Kind of indicates Google search is working how it should and Yelp just has sour grapes. Now if Amazon moved to the second page that would be something to put on 60 minutes.
    - mieseratte 8y ago
      > Same. I start on Google and then usually buy on Amazon. When I said "visit the store" I meant "visit a physical shop." Amazon Basics aside, purchasing their physical products are fraught with peril. Especially with easy-to-forge high-margin products like clothing. I have a few pairs of $40 inauthentic shorts I'd ordered off of Amazon a few years back. I realized they were fake after venturing into a physical store and seeing the difference, but I had gone years thinking Billabong had some seriously shoddy clothes. I'm surprised we don't see more lawsuits of companies suing Amazon for peddling fakes goods and damaging their brand.
  - sharemywin 8y ago
    Google really does have the best business model. It uses an auction model for advertising so most of the profits go to google and then user still blames the actual business for the problems.
dbg31415 8y ago
In the US, Yelp was the go-to for reviews. But that's not the case in other markets. Travel to Australia, and you'll find that basically the only reviews are from Americans. All the Australians use Google. Which makes Yelp in Australia GREAT for Americans. A feature I wish they would build out officially. I like seeing how other people like me rate things. When someone says, "The pizza ain't like home." I know to trust that person if they're from NY. Or, how the Texans ranked local brisket, how people who spoke German rated the schnitzel, or how people from states that grow apples rank apple pie. A million other examples. Profoundly useful for finding good reviews. Anyway neither Google or Yelp offer this feature, and it seems so fundamentally easy to build out. Just aggregate reviews by reviewer meta-data, no? Or something as simple as, "Show me where people who rated this place a 5 also ate." Mix in "check-ins" (and tie those to discount tiers, since Yelp can) and you can start seeing, "Show me places where people rate 5, and actually return regularly..." This stuff makes for powerful reviews. You don't need first names, you don't need to worry about fake reviewers... they have my credit card linked to them, and if that serves as a reward system... anyway Google and Yelp are both missing the boat on a lot of this stuff. I really despise how they both make me use a "real" name now. No way I want friends and family seeing what I write. If a place sucks, I want to be free to trash it without fear of someone saying, "Hey {person with a fairly unique first name who is fairly well-known in a relatively small community}, why did you trash my pizza?" or, "Hey Mr. Regular, why haven't you written me a review yet?" or, "Hey Grandson, I see that you're reviewing the same BDSM shop your grandfather and I love!" Ha. Having real IDs on the web... creepy as fuck.
- monksy 8y ago
  That's what I've found about travelling out of the US. Tripadvisor is good/decent. Although it's gamed a lot. Yelp is TERRIBLE for food choices. In the Caribbean, you'll see how bad it is. (There aren't a lot of reviews and the places that are reviewed are really bad)
jacquesm 8y ago
They have a point but this really is the best example of the pot calling the kettle black that I'm aware of. Yelp and Google both abuse their dominance.
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  How is Google abusing their position?
justonepost 8y ago
lol, here comes the googlers upvote/downvoting. Dang, are you doing anything about that?
- sctb 8y ago
  > Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about it, email us and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
daanlo 8y ago
I have run several local marketplaces and what Google is doing to local search is so anti-competitive that many people have decided not to start new local marketplaces. You can Imagine what that does to innovation. In the medium term it will hurt Google. It takes years to build trust and it erodes slowly over time until one day it's gone.
justonepost 8y ago
Actually, a huge mistake yelp made is forced you in their app. Very very anti user.
- trumped 8y ago
  it seems like less companies are making this mistake nowadays, but maybe it's just me.
jacksmith21006 8y ago
I use Google all day long. I start there for pretty much everything. Looking for a product I start on Google and usually end up buying on Amazon.com. Amazon is Google's chief competitor yet it is one of the first couple links that come back. Reason? Because Amazon offers a great product and is popular and therefore high on the list returned. Versus Yelp is awful and not high on the list. Google search is working how it should. Yelp create a better product like Amazon and you get high on the list. But how in the world did this story even get on 60 minutes? Does Yelp know someone at CBS?
andegre 8y ago
I didn't see the majority of the piece because the kids were acting up, but I must be missing something. Why is this a big deal when it's the SAME company's browser that the user is using that is showing products/services at the top for the SAME company's products? Why can't google have their own products'/services' links at the top of all search results?
- randcraw 8y ago
  For the same reason the courts broke up the stranglehold robber barons had in railroads and banking back in 1900... it's monopolistic and anticompetitive. This time, much of the anticompetition will be totally invisible, since nobody but Google knows how they bias their search results. Do they collude with Microsoft Bing? Nobody knows but the e-robber barons.
  - jacksmith21006 8y ago
    But here there is other choices and Bing is two characters less so less friction. I think it is very bad policy to penalize someone that creates a better product. I see no inherent advantage for Google over say MS. Google search is just a lot better and why no more Excited or Alta Vista, etc.
__d__ 8y ago
This is ironic. Yelps complaint about Google, is the same I have heard from a few small business owners I have worked with. One customer had over 50% of their legitimate reviews that they worked so incredibly hard for, gone in one day. In trying to appeal, Yelps canned response was its due to our algorithm and there isn’t anything we can do. My customer was in tears over this issue.
johnnydoe9 8y ago
Hasn't Yelp forced businesses to pay or else they'll showcase the negative reviews more than the positive ones? Pot calling the kettle black when it comes to abusing dominance.
- deleted 8y ago
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spalt 8y ago
i thought it was pretty funny during their demonstration of how bad google was, they googled "san francisco restaurants" (or something like that), and there on the auto-complete was "san francisco restaurants YELP", like, dude, this website that is so evil is advertising for you, right there, in the box where you're typing!
wnevets 8y ago
I didn't read the post but the idea of yelp complaining about abuse is pretty funny.
nvr219 8y ago
I get calls from yelp sales which I would call nothing short of predatory, to the point where I literally put on my website a notice to yelp staff to stop calling me.
jedberg 8y ago
I use Yelp all the time. I’ve never even considered using Google maps as a replacement for Yelp. But I just tried it and you know what? I think I might switch. I just did a search for “lunch” from my house, and it came up with all my favorite places. (I know this could be because it’s using what it knows about my location data to suggest places I’ve been to frequently, which is why I’m not totally sold yet). I’ll try using both for a while and see how it goes.
jacksmith21006 8y ago
Do a search for a product and Amazon is #1 or #2 result and chief competitor of Google and will not allow Google products to be sold by anyone on their market place. This entire thing is ridiculous. Google is obviously not gaming results. Yelp sucks so lower down. Make it better and be higher like Amazon.
pers0n 8y ago
Google reviews can’t be trusted either. Google reviews can be removed, I worked for a company that would work to remove all the bad reviews by real clients then pay people overseas to leave 5 star reviews.
laurex 8y ago
Using Duck Duck Go, nearly all my top search results are Yelp, and that is at times enough to make me use Google. (Yes, for every search I could type -yelp but that gets painful.) It's clear that the way Yelp indexes, that Google is doing something to push it down. The question is whether that is purely to squash their competition, or because people don't actually want Yelp results. I'm not suggesting the former is not the case.

321 points by ericzawo 8y ago

60 Minutes didn't reveal anything here a lot of us don't already know, there wasn't any hard-hitting journalism or incredible revelations. But given 60 Minutes reaches millions of people, it's probably massively raised awareness of these issues with a significant number of people who don't generally follow tech explicitly.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> 60 Minutes didn't reveal anything here a lot of us don't already know In my experience, 60 Minutes is less about breaking news than competently explaining it. The tech community, as a whole, is generally bad at communicating its non-commercial preferences. This issue is no exception.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  I don't think it served well as completely explaining it, because Android and Chrome were only cursory mentions, and I'd argue they're both critical to Google's ability to control the Internet, while each also being monopolies in their own right.
  - anchpop 8y ago
    In what sense is Chrome a monopoly?
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      It has an exceedingly dominant market share (FYI: Being a monopoly does not require "zero alternatives exist". Merely that those alternatives are at the mercy of the main one), which it uses to direct and control Internet protocols in the way it finds most beneficial to Google. All new Internet protocols and 'standards' proposed by Google come with the implied threat that Google will do it anyways, since often Google implements it in Chrome before it is a standard, leaving everyone else to accept it or be rendered incompatible with Google, who has control of most of the Internet. A significant number of websites now only test against Chrome and only support Chrome, leaving really only one option, often, when trying to interact with a given Internet entity. And Chrome isn't just a monopoly, it's a monopoly they illegally use to manipulate the market and boost their other products. For instance, while competing search engines can bid for default placement on Firefox, Google gives it's own search engine exclusive rights to be default there, the monopoly search engine on the monopoly browser. Recently, Google even introduced a method for banning competitors ads into Chrome, rendering Google ads the only "sure thing" for not having your ads arbitrarily blocked by Google. Chrome is one of the clearest examples of why Google must be broken up. It's Ad/Search business cannot own platforms like Chrome and Android.
      - true_religion 8y ago
        Your working definition of what an illegal anti-competitive use of monopoly power is seems to be the reverse of what I've heard before. Under your definition, Chrome is supporting the even stronger pre-existing monopoly Google has on search or ads, and therefore is bad. Usually anti-competitive actions are seen as a player using its monopoly to support emergence into a new market, not to build a moat around an existing market they already are dominant in. For example, under your framing, Microsoft's usage of Internet Explorer would have been bad not because it came pre-installed with Windows, but because it was Windows-only (or worked best on Windows) thus supporting the existing Windows monopoly. I don't know if this reasoning can hold legally---merely because I have never seen it used before.
        ocdtrekkie 8y ago
        The general concept of tying relates to connecting unrelated products, and using control of one to benefit the other. I'm doubtful the claim "the other product is already also a monopoly" is a usable defense for this practice's illegality.
mark_l_watson 8y ago
60 Minutes lost me as a viewer 25 years ago. They did a hit piece on someone who I worked with that was flat out untrue. Many people at work knew the details and agreed. That one experience made me view anything I see on TV with a healthy dose of scepticism.
- potatote 8y ago
  I agree with you about not trusting anything we see on TV/Newspapers (even if it is from 60 Minutes; NYT; whatever-is-reputed-to-be-reliable). I grew up in Myanmar and after reading a lot of one-sided coverage about the refugee issue there (labeled as 'genocide'), I realized it's impossible for news organizations to be almost always impartial and accurate. They have to obtain information from some source. Almost always, that source of information can mislead the reporter/news writer easily because of the latter's lack of familiarity with the issue, the region or the culture. The reporter, on the other hand, works against time. Plus, s/he is, after all, human (susceptible to persuasion/personal biases and worse, is sometimes too lazy to do a fact-check and more importantly, to hear the voices from the other side). As most things in life, the truth is always in somewhere the middle.
  - frockington 8y ago
    Especially since now sources are "someone familiar with their thinking". Why the media thinks that is a reputable source is beyond me and is why I've completely stopped watching television news
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      The challenge is that when you're reporting on companies with legendarily strict NDAs and entire security teams dedicated to finding leaks and snuffing them out, news is going to come predominantly from confidential sources. For example, in the Theranos segment that followed the Google segment on this week's 60 Minutes, the Theranos employee who first ratted them out stated that he used a fake name when he first contacted the government because he feared reprisal. Presumably, reporters are supposed to seek adequate proof or confirmation of what they hear from "sources", and we are supposed to be able to trust that they did that job adequately or at least, they are reporting the news as they believe it, until confirmation is available in the form of an official investigation.

willart4food 8y ago

Yelp is not that innocent either, their "practices" are just as questionable, if not more questionable, than Google's.

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sitkack 8y ago
Not meant as an "and you ..." fallacy, nor to distract from article, but. The shakedown to not have competitor's ads displayed on "Your Yelp Page" is fking deplorable. It could be a whole lot of fun to be Attorney General.
seltzered_ 8y ago
Only sharing for reference, you reminded me that someone made a documentary ('billion dollar bully') about this (not released yet, but supposedly being premiered soon): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_Dollar_Bully https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion_Dollar_Bully http://www.prostfilms.com/ http://www.prostfilms.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHEbVh3Yhrw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHEbVh3Yhrw (recent interview with the film creator)
- annexrichmond 8y ago
  The creator has been saying it will be released "soon" for years. Pretty sure it flopped.
  - seltzered_ 8y ago
    FWIW, They talk about the delays at 19m23s in the interview I linked. From staring at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299637435/billion-dollar-bully/posts/1873596 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1299637435/billion-doll... I’d guess they’re still looking for or going through a distributor.

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lawrenceyan 8y ago

It honestly sounds like Yelp is just salty at the fact that their SEO marketing isn't as effective as it used to be because of Google's improvement to their search engine algorithms. Also, it's laughable that of all companies, Yelp is the one complaining about Google.

annexrichmond 8y ago
TripAdvisor is also not happy: https://www.recode.net/2016/8/6/12393586/google-yelp-tripadvisor-must-try-search-results https://www.recode.net/2016/8/6/12393586/google-yelp-tripadv...
onetimemanytime 8y ago
>>because of Google's improvement to their search engine algorithms. "Improvement": Post Google's own offering first and also fill page with ads to keep users within Google's own sites.
- lawrenceyan 8y ago
  It might just be my opinion, but I find the user experience to be far better now that I can search for food basically directly on Google Maps. Yelp's UI is pretty janky, especially when I always end up just pasting the address I find on Yelp back into Google Maps at the end of the day so I can drive to the place.
adventured 8y ago
It's pretty obvious Google has moved against the best interests of consumers, by their own admission. They now insert ads into the top of the search flow, commingling results and ads, something their founders correctly proclaimed in the early days to be fundamentally anti user experience. When faced with mobile (and no right side area to allocate ads), they chose to violate their earliest of principles and decided the money mattered a lot more than providing the best product for the consumer. It's merely one example of many that Google isn't acting in the best interest of the consumer with their search monopoly. Yelp can be salty and simultaneously Google can be an abusive monopoly. Sun and Oracle were two of the loudest complainers about Microsoft. It doesn't mean they were wrong, despite their own at times shitty behavior.

marban 8y ago

Using Google Cache now since the site is down...

marban 8y ago
Direct video link: https://www.cbsnews.com/video/how-did-google-get-so-big/ https://www.cbsnews.com/video/how-did-google-get-so-big/

picsao 8y ago

They still make those reports on single companies? How about the Fonds who have majoritys on whole industries. Google abuses its power but all of its revenue comes from one source. It's a brittle giant. A pension fond can freeze whole industries innovation cycle to reduce that pesky market volatility.

marban 8y ago

The whole piece looks & feels like a documentary that could have been aired during the Dotcom bubble. Looking forward to watching this in twenty years from now.

firefoxd 8y ago

Search results are become a google product. Just as restaurants have turn into yelp products. I can't say it was all their secret goal from the beginning, but it now is.

whoisjuan 8y ago
Are becoming? ...How else do you think they have been making money all these years? It’s their oldest and most profitable product and it’s called AdWords. The foundation of what we know as Google.
- houstoncorridor 8y ago
  Yeah. I consider Google to be first and foremost very much an ad company. Search is just the vehicle they use to fill their shelves with product, "you" that they're selling to advertisers.

kodablah 8y ago

Mainstream media story about web company? Check. Nothing new? Check. Negative? Check. Of course Yelp participated...but Yelp angle aside, CBS is just following the news cycle patterns of their brethren. I'm mentioning this a lot these days, but feels like watching cattle being herded (albeit willingly).

KozmoNau7 8y ago
There is a prevailing "tech can do no wrong" attitude in the tech community, and it absolutely needs to be challenged hard.
- kodablah 8y ago
  > There is a prevailing "tech can do no wrong" attitude in the tech community Is there? I see the opposite in communities including the one we're on. The anti-big-web-company torches seem brightest within compared to the more accepting yet non-ignorant outside.
  - majewsky 8y ago
    I think it's not quite "tech can do no wrong", but "all problems can be solved with tech" is definitely prevalent. I guess it's because we're all tech guys here and "if you only have a hammer...".
    - KozmoNau7 8y ago
      Yeah, that's a better way of putting it. Way too many people in tech are completely blinded to its limitations and inherent problems.
    - jacksmith21006 8y ago
      But you need to use valid examples which the Yelp one is not. Yelp is terrible so not high on the search results like it should be. But then do a product search and Amazon a top result returned even though Amazon banned any company on their market place from selling a bunch of Google products. It is just Yelp sour grapes. If going to accuse Google think you might use a valid example.

telltruth 8y ago

CBS interview leaves out critical details. Initially, Google was scrapping Yelp reviews to show snippets in their Google Places product. Yelp CEO didn't liked that and demanded to remove all snippets. Google said it had right to show snippets like any other websites and if Yelp says their content is "private" then Google shouldn't be crawling them at all. That's what they did. This caused Yelp to disappear from Google and their traffic tanked. So after this some deal was reached. Eventually, Google just decided to do their own reviews and started showing them in Google Maps. Yelp then started this PR war that is now going on for years. Personally, I don't think Google should be obliged to promote all kind of crappy 2nd rate products out there. I hate Yelp. They are greedy bastards who have cornered up huge content entirely contributed by volunteers. They are the ones wanting to monopolize market in this area and avoid having Google as player here. They are the ones who want big price for their theft from millions of hours donated by volunteers. Yelp reviews and ratings should be free and in open domain by vary nature of how it was created (and so should be Amazon's review - but at least they are not entirely volunteers driven website). On the top of this, Yelp has remained mostly stagnant waiting for their big payout day. I don't consider them good for users or internet or industry. So for me this is pick between the worse evil. The debate is so very similar to IE on Windows, however. Should Microsoft be prevented from creating better[1] browser and not allowed to complete with Netscape? Should they be prevented from putting their integrated polished experience in front and center that benefits the customers? One can say that suing Microsoft actually worked out best overall for industry. I'm not too sure how alternate world would have looked like. History certainly rhymes here. [1] You can say whatever about IE's lack of implementing proper standards but it was the fastest browser in its day. It was truly free no strings attached (as long as you are on Windows) and it advanced many things, for example, it was the first browser to implement CSS, XML parsing and tons of functionality that is now part of HTML5 standards.

mattmanser 8y ago
One company doesn't get to unilaterally decide what is 'fair'.
- barry-cotter 8y ago

RRL 8y ago

Yelp has a point. Google, and largely Larry Page's insistence on shortening the time between query and answer is starting to stumble under the reality that the source data Google utilizes for its own services isn't the best there is as Yelp rightly laid out. It may be wise for Google to back off on some touchy verticals or to integrate 3rd party data sources to stymie any attempts by regulators to flex. This is the perfect populist opportunity for any public official to run on. Maybe this will take some of the heat off of Amazon for a minute.

greggman 8y ago

Yelp is crying sour grapes here. There are so many ways they could have innovated to stay relevant but has anything changed in years there? They could have hired professional reviewers. Yelp reviews are notoriously bad. They could have let you choose what you prefer, example (quality vs quantity) and given you custom ratings or only included reviews from people that share similar tastes. Following up on the last idea They could have tried to auto cluster reviewers. (people who rated these 5 places as having good taste also liked ...) the could have scanned menus so you could ask "where can I get a pepperoni pizza at 3am" instead of at best being able to look up "pizza" and figure the rest out yourself. How about "where can I get a table for 10". How about partner with as many restaurants as possible so I can ask "who's still got a table for 4 for steak and win between 7 and 9pm tonight" And maybe nothing would save them but I at least for me reviews make sense on Google maps. That yelp couldn't see their audience was going to dry up seems no different than newspaper classifieds and Craigslist. Their quality certainly isn't better so ATM there is zero reason to go there.

camillomiller 8y ago
You might be right, but a company’s abuse of dominant position isn’t defined by the quality of their competitor’s offer.
- sunstone 8y ago
  Yelp has been horrible since day one. If google has or has not abused its position Yelp is not the standard we would use to determine that.
  - camillomiller 8y ago
    This makes no sense. Yelp could be the worst company ever created, but if they had market share and Google worked to seize that market with unfair practices, that counts as abuse of dominant position. There is a dangerous conflation of two very distinct categories in your line of thought.
    - 8y ago

modi15 8y ago

The problem is not Google. The problem is that the government is unable to get his head around an internet based monopoly. Google shouldnt be allowed to host more than 50% of searches by law. In any other industry enjoying a monopoly position in search as google has enjoyed all these years would have reason enough to break it up into smaller pieces.

themagician 8y ago
What?! How does that work? How does Google “host” searches? 70% of searches go to Google because 70% of people type in “google”. The other 30% open IE/Edge and use Bing to search for google. Are you suggesting that when someone types in “google.com” it redirect them?
- realusername 8y ago
  The vast majority of browsers are still defaulting to Google, you used almost the only example (IE/Edge) which does not do that.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Microsoft could easily outbid Google to be the primary search engine on iOS and they could pay carriers to make Bing the primary search engines on the Android phones they sell.
    - mrep 8y ago
      Yep, and mozilla makes almost all of its revenue from google by setting the default search engine to google: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Financing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation#Financing I find this funny since Google directly finances a competing browser.
      - scarface74 8y ago
        Neither Firefox nor iOS are “competitors” for Google. Google’s main business is advertising and collecting data. Both Chrome and Android are means to that end. Google wants to be wherever the users are, whether that’s on Android, iOS, Chrome, or Firefox. For years, Google made more money on iOS than Android even after Androids market share eclipsed iOS’s market share.

latenightcoding 8y ago

Google recently started showing job postings in their search results (at least here in Canada). I suppose this will affect indeed.com, monster.com, and a site I had stake in. I love monetizing niche search engines and other data products, but it looks like Google will eventually get into any industry where the main source of traffic is organic search, I wonder what is next.

xapata 8y ago
They struck deals with a number of job sites to get that data. It's not as one-sided as it might seem.
- zeusk 8y ago
  Until they no longer need that data because they "harvest" it themselves.

T3RMINATED 8y ago

lycos, hotbot, ask, duckduckgo and more exist its your fault you dont use them... google is just better.. I would never Bing or Yahoo search because their algorithm sucks - google a stackoverflow question you get it right away and on bing its like on page 2... google forever!

krn 8y ago

When I want to buy something, I type "amazon.com", not "google.com". So, why don't I type "yelp.com", when I want to go somewhere? There is nothing to complain about, when your product sucks.

mieseratte 8y ago
> When I want to buy something, I type "amazon.com", not "google.com". I do the exact opposite, I either search a specific business' site or Google something vague like "sturdy cargo pants," find a brand / store that I like and visit that store. I've been burned too many times by cheap, fake shit from Amazon. I'm not willing to deal with the hassle and wasted time.
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  Same. I start on Google and then usually buy on Amazon. Google has the Amazon links like they should and it is high on the list even though Amazon is Google chief competitor. Reason being Amazon is popular and offers a great service. Versus Yelp is horrible so not high on the list. Kind of indicates Google search is working how it should and Yelp just has sour grapes. Now if Amazon moved to the second page that would be something to put on 60 minutes.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    > Same. I start on Google and then usually buy on Amazon. When I said "visit the store" I meant "visit a physical shop." Amazon Basics aside, purchasing their physical products are fraught with peril. Especially with easy-to-forge high-margin products like clothing. I have a few pairs of $40 inauthentic shorts I'd ordered off of Amazon a few years back. I realized they were fake after venturing into a physical store and seeing the difference, but I had gone years thinking Billabong had some seriously shoddy clothes. I'm surprised we don't see more lawsuits of companies suing Amazon for peddling fakes goods and damaging their brand.
- sharemywin 8y ago
  Google really does have the best business model. It uses an auction model for advertising so most of the profits go to google and then user still blames the actual business for the problems.

dbg31415 8y ago

In the US, Yelp was the go-to for reviews. But that's not the case in other markets. Travel to Australia, and you'll find that basically the only reviews are from Americans. All the Australians use Google. Which makes Yelp in Australia GREAT for Americans. A feature I wish they would build out officially. I like seeing how other people like me rate things. When someone says, "The pizza ain't like home." I know to trust that person if they're from NY. Or, how the Texans ranked local brisket, how people who spoke German rated the schnitzel, or how people from states that grow apples rank apple pie. A million other examples. Profoundly useful for finding good reviews. Anyway neither Google or Yelp offer this feature, and it seems so fundamentally easy to build out. Just aggregate reviews by reviewer meta-data, no? Or something as simple as, "Show me where people who rated this place a 5 also ate." Mix in "check-ins" (and tie those to discount tiers, since Yelp can) and you can start seeing, "Show me places where people rate 5, and actually return regularly..." This stuff makes for powerful reviews. You don't need first names, you don't need to worry about fake reviewers... they have my credit card linked to them, and if that serves as a reward system... anyway Google and Yelp are both missing the boat on a lot of this stuff. I really despise how they both make me use a "real" name now. No way I want friends and family seeing what I write. If a place sucks, I want to be free to trash it without fear of someone saying, "Hey {person with a fairly unique first name who is fairly well-known in a relatively small community}, why did you trash my pizza?" or, "Hey Mr. Regular, why haven't you written me a review yet?" or, "Hey Grandson, I see that you're reviewing the same BDSM shop your grandfather and I love!" Ha. Having real IDs on the web... creepy as fuck.

monksy 8y ago
That's what I've found about travelling out of the US. Tripadvisor is good/decent. Although it's gamed a lot. Yelp is TERRIBLE for food choices. In the Caribbean, you'll see how bad it is. (There aren't a lot of reviews and the places that are reviewed are really bad)

jacquesm 8y ago

They have a point but this really is the best example of the pot calling the kettle black that I'm aware of. Yelp and Google both abuse their dominance.

jacksmith21006 8y ago
How is Google abusing their position?

justonepost 8y ago

lol, here comes the googlers upvote/downvoting. Dang, are you doing anything about that?

sctb 8y ago
> Please don't impute astroturfing or shillage. That degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about it, email us and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

daanlo 8y ago

I have run several local marketplaces and what Google is doing to local search is so anti-competitive that many people have decided not to start new local marketplaces. You can Imagine what that does to innovation. In the medium term it will hurt Google. It takes years to build trust and it erodes slowly over time until one day it's gone.

justonepost 8y ago

Actually, a huge mistake yelp made is forced you in their app. Very very anti user.

trumped 8y ago
it seems like less companies are making this mistake nowadays, but maybe it's just me.

jacksmith21006 8y ago

I use Google all day long. I start there for pretty much everything. Looking for a product I start on Google and usually end up buying on Amazon.com. Amazon is Google's chief competitor yet it is one of the first couple links that come back. Reason? Because Amazon offers a great product and is popular and therefore high on the list returned. Versus Yelp is awful and not high on the list. Google search is working how it should. Yelp create a better product like Amazon and you get high on the list. But how in the world did this story even get on 60 minutes? Does Yelp know someone at CBS?

andegre 8y ago

I didn't see the majority of the piece because the kids were acting up, but I must be missing something. Why is this a big deal when it's the SAME company's browser that the user is using that is showing products/services at the top for the SAME company's products? Why can't google have their own products'/services' links at the top of all search results?

randcraw 8y ago
For the same reason the courts broke up the stranglehold robber barons had in railroads and banking back in 1900... it's monopolistic and anticompetitive. This time, much of the anticompetition will be totally invisible, since nobody but Google knows how they bias their search results. Do they collude with Microsoft Bing? Nobody knows but the e-robber barons.
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  But here there is other choices and Bing is two characters less so less friction. I think it is very bad policy to penalize someone that creates a better product. I see no inherent advantage for Google over say MS. Google search is just a lot better and why no more Excited or Alta Vista, etc.

__d__ 8y ago

This is ironic. Yelps complaint about Google, is the same I have heard from a few small business owners I have worked with. One customer had over 50% of their legitimate reviews that they worked so incredibly hard for, gone in one day. In trying to appeal, Yelps canned response was its due to our algorithm and there isn’t anything we can do. My customer was in tears over this issue.

johnnydoe9 8y ago

Hasn't Yelp forced businesses to pay or else they'll showcase the negative reviews more than the positive ones? Pot calling the kettle black when it comes to abusing dominance.

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spalt 8y ago

i thought it was pretty funny during their demonstration of how bad google was, they googled "san francisco restaurants" (or something like that), and there on the auto-complete was "san francisco restaurants YELP", like, dude, this website that is so evil is advertising for you, right there, in the box where you're typing!

wnevets 8y ago

I didn't read the post but the idea of yelp complaining about abuse is pretty funny.

nvr219 8y ago

I get calls from yelp sales which I would call nothing short of predatory, to the point where I literally put on my website a notice to yelp staff to stop calling me.

jedberg 8y ago

I use Yelp all the time. I’ve never even considered using Google maps as a replacement for Yelp. But I just tried it and you know what? I think I might switch. I just did a search for “lunch” from my house, and it came up with all my favorite places. (I know this could be because it’s using what it knows about my location data to suggest places I’ve been to frequently, which is why I’m not totally sold yet). I’ll try using both for a while and see how it goes.

jacksmith21006 8y ago

Do a search for a product and Amazon is #1 or #2 result and chief competitor of Google and will not allow Google products to be sold by anyone on their market place. This entire thing is ridiculous. Google is obviously not gaming results. Yelp sucks so lower down. Make it better and be higher like Amazon.

pers0n 8y ago

Google reviews can’t be trusted either. Google reviews can be removed, I worked for a company that would work to remove all the bad reviews by real clients then pay people overseas to leave 5 star reviews.

laurex 8y ago

Using Duck Duck Go, nearly all my top search results are Yelp, and that is at times enough to make me use Google. (Yes, for every search I could type -yelp but that gets painful.) It's clear that the way Yelp indexes, that Google is doing something to push it down. The question is whether that is purely to squash their competition, or because people don't actually want Yelp results. I'm not suggesting the former is not the case.