7 ms·

This meme needs to die. Developed countries produce much more waste than developing countries. The disparity is even more striking if you look at the figures pe

by wz1000 8y ago

This meme needs to die. Developed countries produce much more waste than developing countries. The disparity is even more striking if you look at the figures per capita. The US generates almost 3 times as much waste per capital as China. On top of that, a huge proportion of waste is exported by developed countries to developing countries. The US also only recycles 9% of its plastic waste, compared to 25% for China. > Europe, the biggest exporter worldwide of waste plastic intended for recycling, depends largely on China: 87% wt. is exported to China either directly or via the Hong Kong SAR. The exported quantity is 46% of the overall quantity collected for recycling, and 12% of the entire plastic waste arisings in Europe. In contrast, Europe exports only 1.2% of its primary plastics products to China. > The USA is the second largest consumer of plastics in the world and depends mainly to China and HK for absorbing its waste plastics. Neighbouring countries such as Canada and Mexico are also a small market outlet. According to the Institute of Scrap Recycling Industries (ISRI) reporting data from the U.S. Census Bureau, the USA exported 2.1Mt of plastic waste to China https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/galleries/Task_Forces/TFGWM_Report_GRM_Plastic_China_LR.pdf https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/galleries/Task_Forces/TFGWM_R... http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTURBANDEVELOPMENT/Resources/336387-1334852610766/Chap3.pdf http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTURBANDEVELOPMENT/Resou... http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700782.full http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/7/e1700782.full

vamin 8y ago
I think you make a good point, but there's a big difference between the amount of waste produced and the amount of waste that makes it into the natural environment, as opposed to a recycling center or dedicated landfill. Just because developed countries are producing more waste does not mean that they are contributing more waste to the bottom of the ocean. (I am not suggesting that we should not all aim to produce less waste and handle what waste we do produce better.)
- wz1000 8y ago
  The point is that a large amount of waste produced by developed is dumped/exported to developing countries like China, India, Bangladesh and Vietnam. And a large amount of waste generated by these countries is done so in the production of goods meant for Western consumption.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - romaniv 8y ago
    >a large amount of waste generated by these countries is done so in the production of goods meant for Western consumption. Why does this matter? A factory polluting local lakes and rivers to make goods for export to another state definitely couldn't use this as an excuse. They control the process, so they are responsible for consequences of using that process. So why rules are suddenly different when we talk about countries?
    - phs318u 8y ago
      Because we’ve exported our externalities. Global industry doesn’t choose to manufacture in China because of the great views. Their regulations are effectively non-existent. Those regulations in the West protecting the environment, the community, the workers etc? They have a cost that many consumers are unprepared to bear. The rules are indeed different.
      - jschwartzi 8y ago
        So other than feeling bad about the things I own and purchase, what can I do, realistically? Give up everything and live entirely off the land? I'm fully prepared to bear the cost of these things if someone would actually give me a way to pay it.
        icc97 8y ago
        The article points out that 89% of sea plastic is the throwaway kind, e.g. cutlery and plastic bottles. It's relatively simple to cut down on these. Switch to using aluminium cans instead of plastic bottles, they're much more likely to be recycled. Then obviously put the can in the recycling. Better yet, use your own water bottle. If you want bottled water get it in crates of glass bottles. Shops will often take the crates back to be washed and reused.
seanmcdirmid 8y ago
> This meme needs to die. Developed countries produce much more waste than developing countries. Yes, but western countries also have better waste disposal infrastructure (land fills, incinerators) that is actually used, so in this case that is not very relevant. > On top of that, a huge proportion of waste is exported by developed countries to developing countries. This is because Chinese recycling companies underbid most of their western (more local) competition, essentially putting them out of business. I strongly believe there should have been much earlier trade intervention by western (rather than Chinese) governments to prevent that. But on the other hand, western countries didn't aim guns at China's head to make them take their trash.
- 8note 8y ago
  so western countries throw our trash into the ocean using Chinese rivers because westerners are too cheap to pay for good recycling? still seems like the west is responsible.
  - seanmcdirmid 8y ago
    Most of the trash in Chinese rivers is most definitely from Chinese sources. Chinese companies decided to underbid for recycling contracts in western countries and then not doing the actual recycling. If you want to apply some blame the purchaser for trusting the Chinese companies, fine with me, but lets not absolve the Chinese from blame here.
- joe_the_user 8y ago
  This is because Chinese recycling companies underbid most of their western (more local) competition, essentially putting them out of business. Because the Chinese do an inadequate job of disposing of the waste of Western countries, so their costs are less, so this Western waste winds-up in the oceans with stops in China and the folks in charge in the Western nations more or less let this happen. But your post does a job of framing this chain of events as if China was entirely at fault. A bit reflection should show the reader this isn't the case.
  - 8y ago
Karishma1234 8y ago
Western countries generate more capita garbage and yet have figured out how to properly dispose it off. Not withstanding the tinfoil type environmentalists on HN, USA has damn good conventional waste management systems. Most waste goes to landfills which are very securely locked from all sides and once full they build resorts and amusement parks on top of it. Most landfills in USA will take centuries to actually run out of space. Even in a filthy city like New York you can still swim in Hudson and come out alive and well. You can't do that in most rivers in India and China and in some cases even tap water.
- sschueller 8y ago
  What benefits does a landfill have over trash burning? Here in Switzerland most non recyclable trash is burned in special clean burning power plants to produce heat for most of the cities. 1 Bag of trash is the equivalent of 1,7 Liter of heating oil. [1] https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ted/de/index/entsorgung_recycling/zuerich_waerme/produktionsanlagen/kehrichtheizkraftwerk/thermische_verwertung.html https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ted/de/index/entsorgung_recycli... (German)
  - Karishma1234 8y ago
    Remind me what is the population of Swiss again ?
wollstonecraft 8y ago
China is not a developing country. This meme needs to die.
- jackvalentine 8y ago
  Depends which part of China you go to, really.
  - api 8y ago
    Same is true of the USA.
contravariant 8y ago
The only study on this subject I'm aware of is the one funded by The Ocean Cleanup Foundation [1], which puts 86% of annually released plastic in Asian rivers, with the main contributor being the Chinese Yantze river, followed by the Ganges. This compared to a mere 0.28% and 0.96% for Europe and North America respectively. They've also released an interactive map [2], although if you're just interested in the numbers I'd recommend reading the paper. [1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611.pdf https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611.pdf [2]: https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/ https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/
DougWebb 8y ago
The disparity is even more striking if you look at the figures per capita. The US generates almost 3 times as much waste per capital as China. China has 4.25x as much 'capita' as the US, so in absolute terms they produce more. I'll grant that the disparity is "more striking" if you phrase it in a way that obscures the full details. In fairness, you're right that exporting garbage is bad, and we all need to be producing less of it.
api 8y ago
It's not how much is produced but how much ends up in the ocean.

by wz1000 8y ago

vamin 8y ago

I think you make a good point, but there's a big difference between the amount of waste produced and the amount of waste that makes it into the natural environment, as opposed to a recycling center or dedicated landfill. Just because developed countries are producing more waste does not mean that they are contributing more waste to the bottom of the ocean. (I am not suggesting that we should not all aim to produce less waste and handle what waste we do produce better.)

wz1000 8y ago
The point is that a large amount of waste produced by developed is dumped/exported to developing countries like China, India, Bangladesh and Vietnam. And a large amount of waste generated by these countries is done so in the production of goods meant for Western consumption.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- romaniv 8y ago
  >a large amount of waste generated by these countries is done so in the production of goods meant for Western consumption. Why does this matter? A factory polluting local lakes and rivers to make goods for export to another state definitely couldn't use this as an excuse. They control the process, so they are responsible for consequences of using that process. So why rules are suddenly different when we talk about countries?
  - phs318u 8y ago
    Because we’ve exported our externalities. Global industry doesn’t choose to manufacture in China because of the great views. Their regulations are effectively non-existent. Those regulations in the West protecting the environment, the community, the workers etc? They have a cost that many consumers are unprepared to bear. The rules are indeed different.
    - jschwartzi 8y ago
      So other than feeling bad about the things I own and purchase, what can I do, realistically? Give up everything and live entirely off the land? I'm fully prepared to bear the cost of these things if someone would actually give me a way to pay it.
      - icc97 8y ago
        The article points out that 89% of sea plastic is the throwaway kind, e.g. cutlery and plastic bottles. It's relatively simple to cut down on these. Switch to using aluminium cans instead of plastic bottles, they're much more likely to be recycled. Then obviously put the can in the recycling. Better yet, use your own water bottle. If you want bottled water get it in crates of glass bottles. Shops will often take the crates back to be washed and reused.

seanmcdirmid 8y ago

> This meme needs to die. Developed countries produce much more waste than developing countries. Yes, but western countries also have better waste disposal infrastructure (land fills, incinerators) that is actually used, so in this case that is not very relevant. > On top of that, a huge proportion of waste is exported by developed countries to developing countries. This is because Chinese recycling companies underbid most of their western (more local) competition, essentially putting them out of business. I strongly believe there should have been much earlier trade intervention by western (rather than Chinese) governments to prevent that. But on the other hand, western countries didn't aim guns at China's head to make them take their trash.

8note 8y ago
so western countries throw our trash into the ocean using Chinese rivers because westerners are too cheap to pay for good recycling? still seems like the west is responsible.
- seanmcdirmid 8y ago
  Most of the trash in Chinese rivers is most definitely from Chinese sources. Chinese companies decided to underbid for recycling contracts in western countries and then not doing the actual recycling. If you want to apply some blame the purchaser for trusting the Chinese companies, fine with me, but lets not absolve the Chinese from blame here.
joe_the_user 8y ago
This is because Chinese recycling companies underbid most of their western (more local) competition, essentially putting them out of business. Because the Chinese do an inadequate job of disposing of the waste of Western countries, so their costs are less, so this Western waste winds-up in the oceans with stops in China and the folks in charge in the Western nations more or less let this happen. But your post does a job of framing this chain of events as if China was entirely at fault. A bit reflection should show the reader this isn't the case.
- 8y ago

Karishma1234 8y ago

Western countries generate more capita garbage and yet have figured out how to properly dispose it off. Not withstanding the tinfoil type environmentalists on HN, USA has damn good conventional waste management systems. Most waste goes to landfills which are very securely locked from all sides and once full they build resorts and amusement parks on top of it. Most landfills in USA will take centuries to actually run out of space. Even in a filthy city like New York you can still swim in Hudson and come out alive and well. You can't do that in most rivers in India and China and in some cases even tap water.

sschueller 8y ago
What benefits does a landfill have over trash burning? Here in Switzerland most non recyclable trash is burned in special clean burning power plants to produce heat for most of the cities. 1 Bag of trash is the equivalent of 1,7 Liter of heating oil. [1] https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ted/de/index/entsorgung_recycling/zuerich_waerme/produktionsanlagen/kehrichtheizkraftwerk/thermische_verwertung.html https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/ted/de/index/entsorgung_recycli... (German)
- Karishma1234 8y ago
  Remind me what is the population of Swiss again ?

wollstonecraft 8y ago

China is not a developing country. This meme needs to die.

jackvalentine 8y ago
Depends which part of China you go to, really.
- api 8y ago
  Same is true of the USA.

contravariant 8y ago

The only study on this subject I'm aware of is the one funded by The Ocean Cleanup Foundation [1], which puts 86% of annually released plastic in Asian rivers, with the main contributor being the Chinese Yantze river, followed by the Ganges. This compared to a mere 0.28% and 0.96% for Europe and North America respectively. They've also released an interactive map [2], although if you're just interested in the numbers I'd recommend reading the paper. [1]: https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611.pdf https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611.pdf [2]: https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/ https://www.theoceancleanup.com/sources/

DougWebb 8y ago

The disparity is even more striking if you look at the figures per capita. The US generates almost 3 times as much waste per capital as China. China has 4.25x as much 'capita' as the US, so in absolute terms they produce more. I'll grant that the disparity is "more striking" if you phrase it in a way that obscures the full details. In fairness, you're right that exporting garbage is bad, and we all need to be producing less of it.

api 8y ago

It's not how much is produced but how much ends up in the ocean.