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What I learned by living without artificial light

322 points by happy-go-lucky 9y ago

kriffo 9y ago
Buy Amazon Kindle today
kalehrishi 9y ago
I use this https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/ everywhere and helps lot to sleep even if you get exposed to screens. I am not sure about Kindle before sleep. It has some bright light however it is better than reading book in lamp light. Candles are good but should not be used for long as smoke starts to build up. I would like to know other views.
- soziawa 9y ago
  How is it better than reading a book in lamp light? You can just buy a sensible lamp for reading.
- czechdeveloper 9y ago
  Windows 10 now supports flux-like behavior (night light) out of box. I no longer have need to even install flux. Not sure about Apple.
  - marksomnian 9y ago
    iOS supports it as well - actually there was a controversy when Apple removed f.lux from the app store and then rolled out its own similar feature if I recall correctly.
    - mikestew 9y ago
      Orthogonal to your point, but f.lux was never in the App Store because it had to use a private API to pull it off. They did offer it as an Xcode project for a while, IIRC.
  - nijaru 9y ago
    I still use flux since I prefer to filter out some blue light during the day, keeping it around 5500K.
    - dogma1138 9y ago
      Not to rain on your parade but get a colorimeter and check your screen I’ve used my xrite i1 pro and the amount of blue light doesn’t actually change that much when you switch your white point temperature to warmer settings and especially when it’s as high as 5500K.
    - czechdeveloper 9y ago
      Flux helps just with one part. Relax in evening due to removal of blue light. But second part is, that in morning and during day, you really should see blue/full spectrum and intensive light. Either by going outside, or you can buy some light therapy lamp that provides you with this (when natural light is impossible). I do not think it's good idea to deprive yourself of blue light whole day.
  - mateuszf 9y ago
    It's called Night Shift on OSX and it's also builtin
  - mathnode 9y ago
    MacOS, Windows 10, and Gnome 3 all have a night mode now.
- dogma1138 9y ago
  Windows, MacOS, iOS and I believe now Android have it built in, it can help but it’s not that great if you’ll be using your screen till bed time. White point adjustment doesn’t actually reduces the amount of blue light by that much it’s really due to how LCD screens and their color filters work, some monitors a have built in function to turn on a blue light filter which can also be used in conjunction with white point adjustment e.g Flux which does help it reduce it further. Which is why I stop all screen use 45min before bed time, more would be too much of a burden for me and less wouldn’t be effective but you should experiment with what works for you. I also found that watching my OLED TV has considerably smaller effect on me than my computer screens or phone if I use them just before bed. I don’t know if this is due to the nature of the screen since it doesn’t use backlight hence less blue light or is it just due to the fact that the perceived brightness is lower due to the watching distance.
  - Matt3o12_ 9y ago
    Unfortunately Apples version for flux (night shift) is not available older Macs and only available for very few displays (only the few Apple made themselves and a few of their recommended one).
    - paulsutter 9y ago
      Apple recommends displays? Ever since they discontinued their own display, I've had a dickens of a time using third party displays. My current display flickers for 30-60 seconds before becoming usable on wake, and I would love to night shift again. Where's the list?
      - veidr 9y ago
        Here is the list: 1. LG UltraFine monitors THE END Sadly, recommendation notwithstanding, I bought 2 of these 5K monitors for my iMac Pro, but they have the same funky waking problems you describe, and sometimes one doesn't even come on at all, until the machine is rebooted. T_T (Night Shift does work on them, though. But auto-brightness doesn't, so it's like a soft orange-ish screen in the middle and two BRIGHT AND FIERY ORANGE SCREENS blazing at you at night, unless you manually adjust the brightness...)
- mikro2nd 9y ago
  If smoke is building up from a few candles you have bigger ventilation issues to worry about and fix than light colour or intensity tweaking. CO2 buildup will certainly affect your quality of life (and sleep).
- Shorel 9y ago
  Some Kobo models have adaptive light, that is, blueish during the day, reddish at night.
bengrunfeld 9y ago
Interesting results but a very badly written article. The author draaaaawwwwssss it out, trying to get you to read to the end so that you can find out her findings. It's a cheap, shitty writing strategy. At one point, I got bored and scrolled all the way to the bottom to see if there was a concise summary of the results found, but even those were drawn out randomly across multiple paragraphs. Like I said, good info but very badly written.
jaggederest 9y ago
I find that when I am in rural areas, I sleep like a rock. I think it has as much to do with sound as light. But certainly good light exposure during the day, a dark, quiet sleeping environment, and a routine schedule make an incredibly significant impact in me (someone who has normally struggled with insomnia)
- jaclaz 9y ago
  >I find that when I am in rural areas, I sleep like a rock. >I think it has as much to do with sound as light. You are an exception I believe (if you normally live in the city), I live in the country and I am used to it (and conversely I have sometimes some issues when sleeping in a city, mainly due to traffic noise, but not only) but when some friends come and stay, often they are disturbed by the thousand little noises of animals, birds, etc., particularly in the early morning in spring when the birds start singing around 5 A.M.
  - jaggederest 9y ago
    Grew up in the country, and I sleep with earplugs in to boot. City noises punch right through them, amazingly enough, traffic rocks the foundation of my house enough there's no escape. Planning the purchase of somewhere peaceful and remote as we speak.
nukeop 9y ago
I don't think living completely without artificial lights and screens is possible for a vast majority of HN users. Remember to completely shut your bedroom out at night though, it has to be completely, 100% pitch black. It improves the sleep quality a lot.
- antonp 9y ago
  From my anecdotal evidence I see that sleep robustness can be strongly shaped by conditioning when we're younger. Ex: having your children sleep in bedrooms with open doors with a dim light source on will make them into one of those "I sleep through everything" sleepers. Curious to hear other people's experience.
  - ccozan 9y ago
    Interesting. I cannot go asleep unless is pitch black. On the other side we used our kids to sleep with some dim light in the room, so they can sleep at noon in plain bright sun no problem, which I can't :). Other than that, we also used them to get asleep on some background noise ( some silly TV or Radio show, foreign language, for example ), and after they are asleep I can talk normally near them, work, etc. Again, a thing I cannot do, if I hear a noise, the slightest, I am awake and my sleep is gone.
  - tomcooks 9y ago
    Grew up in a very rural area (maximum of 2 cars passing by my window everyday) and used to sleep in pitch dark. I could get robbed, bombed and receive a kidney transplant without noticing - so yes it's anecdotal, curious as well
    - isostatic 9y ago
      Once I'm asleep I can sleep through a lot (and even if I do wake up, get out of bed, and put the kids in the shower after they've been sick - I have no memory of it in the morning) However getting to sleep is tricky. I've found two things that seem to work. One is listening to Legally Blonde the musical on repeat with headphones on -- on a plane even where I don't get a bed this allows me to sleep for a good 6 or so hours on an overnight flight. It's weird, I think I had it on once some years ago and fell asleep, now my brain feels to be "conditioned". If I listen to it I start feeling sleepy. The other is at home where it's quiet, dark, and no movement. I start thinking about orbital mechanics (at least as much as KSP has taught me), and I usually fall asleep fairly quickly.
dsign 9y ago
Ha! That about artificial light and screens is a bit ... wanting the blame the artificial. I find that natural sunlight makes sleeping tough business close to the poles.
ggm 9y ago
Body of story does not match title of story here or the BBC. It's "what I learned kind-of minimising artificial light at night, but not actually complete because I used redshifted apps and a lot of ... Well.. artificial, cold cathode and LED light. And anyway it's darkish outside so anecdote but also S.A.D. is a thing." I think the story premise is great. The execution leaves a lot to be desired. I'm trying not to feed the snark. But, really, I think they could have gone harder for a better story. Kids makes it hard.
- gurp 9y ago
  Yeah, the headline is just a lie.
- egypturnash 9y ago
  What I learnt in tying to cut out artificial light at night: Cutting out artificial light at night is fucking hard. Here are the compromises I made and the results I got.
skrebbel 9y ago
Does anyone know how effective "computer with flux/nightlight/etc" is compared to "no computer at all, write stuff by candlelight on paper"? Is flux/nightlight getting me most of the way (assuming no super blue/white lights in the house), or is it hardly getting me started? I bet this has been studied but I don't know where to look.
- jedberg 9y ago
  There aren't actually a lot of good studies on comparing different sources of "candlelight". Most studies assume the quality of 1850K light is the same regardless of the source. My personal anecdote is that it makes no difference to my sleep quality. I've used an 1850K lamp for reading before bed, and I've used my monitor with flux, and it doesn't seem to make a difference.
- veidr 9y ago
  I don't know that, although I once tried hard to google it. What I do know, though, is that for me these orange-tinted blue-light-blocking safety glasses (which I learned about from somebody else on this very forum discussing this exact topic a few years ago) work way better than any screen-modifying software I have tried. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000USRG90/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000USRG90/ref=oh_aui_sear... They look a bit silly but if you are just at home, who cares... (I no longer use them, because in the intervening years I produced three young children, so I am now exhausted at all times and can fall asleep instantly whenever the opportunity presents itself. However, I still do use Night Shift / Night Mode / f.lux / Windows Blue Light Filter on all my phones and computers, because I came to strongly prefer it after getting used to it, even in absence of sleep issues.)
  - sshagent 9y ago
    Random tangent, but that last statement about having 3 kids and instantly falling asleep whenever the opportunity presents itself rings really true for me. I had major sleep problems until i had 3 kids. 4 years of 2 new borns + heavy callout. Took about 3 years to recover from that but i'd fall asleep anywhere i sat still long enough. Glad thats all behind me, i hope you're getting some good sleep.
jedberg 9y ago
I've done a lot of research on sleep and sleep disorders, and have experimented on myself a few different times. Things I've found that help the most: Number one, far and away, is arranging my schedule such that I don't have to set an alarm clock. I did this once in college when I was able to get only late classes, and I do it now since I work for myself (although the kids sometimes wake me up). Any time I can go for a week or more without setting any alarm clock, I feel far more refreshed throughout the day. Number two, no blue light at night. I went a little nuts with this one, not only getting flux, but I work in the dark at night with the brightness on the monitor at the lowest setting with a blue filter, and I also replaced all the night lights in my house with special night lights that run at 1850K (candlelight). I also installed a second light in bathroom with it's own switch and installed an 1850K LED bulb in it so that I could do my nighttime routine in "candlelight". Basically, after the kids are down, there is no source of blue light anywhere in my house. These two things seem to have made the most difference. I've done other experiments with temperature control, sleeping position, bedroom darkness, etc. They all seem to make some difference as well, but not nearly as much as those first two things.
- bamboozled 9y ago
  You could take this one step further and just say NO devices or TV at night or after 7pm, period. I can honestly say it's been game changing for me to do this. I just read paper books now, taken a while to get into the habit but my sleep has improved so dramatically since then. Also, my phone charger lives in the kitchen, so my phone doesn't come to bed with me, also a dramatic improvement. What is strange about all this is that fluorescents, while not pleasant to use, don't seem to keep my up like devices do. In that I can have one on for 30 minutes before bed and sleep well. Maybe it's not the light but the stimulation that affects us?
  - jedberg 9y ago
    > You could take this one step further and just say NO devices or TV at night or after 7pm, period. I've done that before and it didn't make any difference for me. If I read a book on a screen or on paper before bed, it doesn't seem to matter, as long as the light is 1850K.
tintor 9y ago
Use of candlelight increases your risk of home fire significantly. Better use LEDs that are similar to candles.
- amelius 9y ago
  Candlelight is also artificial light ...
  - glastra 9y ago
    Exactly. Came here expecting an article on someone who used sunlight only and how that affects life, ability to do work, sleep, health... And found an article on someone who removed blue light, while keeping artificial candles for dark times.
FrozenVoid 9y ago
I just disable the blue light entirely in monitor settings. Setting the colors which include blue(magenta, cyan,blue) to 0 stops that entirely. The only drawback is that colors in images that have blue are replaced by gray/black tones(which isn't a problem for me at all).
bojanvidanovic 9y ago
Some time ago I discovered my left eye is suffering from astigmatism and I needed glasses to correct it. I was suggested to order glasses with a blue-light filter and it's been a game changer for me ever since.
SuperChihuahua 9y ago
This was also discussed in a good book about sleep I read a few weeks ago: Why we sleep https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316/ https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...
hownottowrite 9y ago
Highly recommend A. Roger Ekrich’s At Day’s Close: http://books.wwnorton.com/books/At-Days-Close/ http://books.wwnorton.com/books/At-Days-Close/ Not only is it a great book on the subject, but the writing is exquisite.
lonk 9y ago
TL;DR; Article is very long, 4,744 words. Last paragraph is summary: "It’s ridiculously simple. But spending more time outdoors during the daytime and dimming the lights in the evening really could be a recipe for better sleep and health. "
- garganzol 9y ago
  This. I am a person prone to bipolar disorder and it made a huge improvement for me. You can also add a natural anti-depressant (coffee, red bull) at the morning and depressant (milk, yogurt) at the evening to the mix. Another advice is to avoid working with Flux / Night Shift at the evenings. This sends conflicting signals to the brain: warm screen light asks for relax but the need to work asks for concentration and focus. This does not go well together. But you totally can watch an entertaining/scientific YouTube channels with Flux / Night Shift on at the evening. It will gradually drag you to a very good sleep. The good thing it is repeatable, so you can follow this deeply satisfying pattern everyday. EDIT: Bipolar disorder, not bistable disorder.
  - cimmanom 9y ago
    What is bistable disorder, if you don't mind my asking? I couldn't find anything about it on google.
    - garganzol 9y ago
      My mistake, I wanted to say "bipolar disorder".
petercooper 9y ago
I think I'm wired up back to front. I sleep very well. My problem is daylight! It drains me and I can't wait for the evening. At night I find it easy to be alert and when I've adopted a nocturnal schedule, I've been happier and more productive. I've just shut the blinds and turned off the lights in the office to get some work done..(!)
John_KZ 9y ago
Do people really manage to go more than a few days with less than 6-7 hours of sleep? I don't know anyone that does it. Also the article conveniently forgets how many near-isolated tribes with zero exposure to artificial light never sleep through the whole night, they wake up in intervals and often sleep very lightly because there's danger looming at all times. Sure, artificial light can be an issue, but if you practice self-restrain with screentime and get a lightbulb with a warmer tone for the late evening hours then your problem will be solved (if it even was caused by light exposure in the first place, and it usually isn't).
Lxr 9y ago
Sam Altman concurs with the benefits of morning light: > I use a full spectrum LED light most mornings for about 10-15 minutes while I catch up on email. It’s great—if you try nothing else in here, this is the thing I’d try. https://blog.samaltman.com/productivity https://blog.samaltman.com/productivity
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075H39NDL https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075H39NDL is the one he mentions (not available). It's 5500K and it says it mimics midday sun; I wonder if that could be harmful long term, as you're shocking your body awake - "it's midday, get up!" - rather than following a natural progression from dark to morning-light.
k__ 9y ago
I only set an alarm, when I need to travel. I sleep like 9h if no one wakes me up.
upofadown 9y ago
Note that there were two aspects mentioned in the article. Reducing exposure to bright/blue light after dark and increasing exposure to bright/blue light in the daytime. The first is relatively easy to do for most people but the second tends to be harder if you work indoors.
timonoko 9y ago
Tell me about it. If you live the summer far above the arctic circle, you will soon lose your precious synchronicity. You sleep when there is nothing else to do, 12 hours if needed. Fishermen seem to prefer past midnight hours because the wind is minimal and flying bugs come close to water attracting salmon. And afternoons are best time to sleep, as there might be excess heat and mosquitoes fly high. I find these conditions to be the optimal, and feel quite depressed when the annoying darkness gradually creeps in.
tvanantwerp 9y ago
Has anyone here who wears glasses tried prescription blue-light-filtering lenses? I can't really use the orange glasses lots of people recommend in the evenings because they don't fit well over my glasses--even the clip-ons I bought don't sit right. I've read a bit about prescription lenses that filter blue light, but haven't tried it. I'm curious if anyone else has an what their experience was like.
- graeme 9y ago
  https://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S0360X-Ultra-spec-SCT-Orange-Anti-Fog/dp/B003OBZ64M/ https://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S0360X-Ultra-spec-SCT-Orange-Ant... These work great. I wear glasses and they are very comfortable over them.
  - tvanantwerp 9y ago
    Bought a pair and started using them. Thank you for the recommendation!
- JesseWright 9y ago
  A few years ago, about when I was a sophomore in college, I started wearing glasses with lenses that filter blue light (BluTech lenses in my case). My optometrist recommended them at the time and said they were great for people who sit at computer screens most of the day. For that, they work exceptionally well: they just subtly change the color of everything, meaning you can still see normal colors but with just a slight off-white tint, and seem to be way easier on my eyes. I ended up getting a second pair that goes over my normal contacts because I get headaches after an hour or two of being at the computer without my glasses. I can't work without them. I haven't really noticed a particular difference when it comes to how they affect or improve my sleep or ability to fall asleep though. The most useful decision I've made to that end is to stop using my computer about an hour before I plan on going to bed. In my case, at least, it's not the blue light that seems to keep me up but how active my brain is close to bedtime. I have to give it time to unwind. I've never noticed my glasses helping with that. Your mileage may vary though.
anonu 9y ago
Having grown up in a place with constant blackouts, I had too many nights living on candle light. Granted, this was before smartphones...
baldfat 9y ago
Bad research! > Pre-industrial societies such as the Hadza tribe in Tanzania also seem to have a far lower prevalence of sleep problems, like insomnia. “When we asked members of the Hadza whether they thought their sleep was good, they almost universally said ‘yes, it’s totally fine’. That statistically doesn't match up with what we see in the West,” says David Samson, an anthropologist at the University of Toronto in Mississauga, who has studied them. This is what they actually found from that Tribe and a second one. They actually got less sleep then people do living with artificial lights. > The team asked 94 people from these groups to wear Actiwatch-2 devices, which automatically recorded their activity and ambient-light levels. The data revealed that these groups all sleep for nightly blocks of 6.9 and 8.5 hours, and they spend at least 5.7 to 7.1 hours of those soundly asleep. That’s no more than what Westerners who have worn the same watches get; if anything, it’s slightly less. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many... UCLA study - http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/our-ancestors-probably-didnt-get-8-hours-a-night-either http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/our-ancestors-probably-did... This was talking about the idea that we naturally sleep a little and wake for a few hours and then go back to sleep as some normal human sleep pattern. The idea is still the same we sleep about the same in modern times. I have had to read a lot of ancient documents and in those documents they talk a lot about bad sleep medicine. If they sleep so well why do we have so many sleep fixes in those documents. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4939-2089-1_4 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4939-2089-... (Just focused on India documents on sleep from 4,000 years ago.
- gregwebs 9y ago
  That's a great study on hunter-gather sleep duration that I think helps bust some myths about sleep duration. The quote you are trying to refute though is about sleep quality issues like insomnia, which may still be much lower in hunter-gather groups.
tzs 9y ago
Sunlight has significant blue light. (This makes sense, considering that our sensitivity to blue light evolved in order to sync to the day/night cycle). But what about moonlight? Surely our intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (the cells that handle the sensing for syncing) and the syncing mechanism using them evolved back when our early hominid ancestors lived and slept outdoors. Does the Moon do a poor job of reflecting the blue components of sunlight? Or did our ancestors have bad sleep during those times of month when the Moon was up in the early evening? Or is the reflected light from the Moon dim enough that the blue component does not reach some minimum threshold to activate the retinal ganglion cells? Or did they simply find a place to sleep behind a tree or rock or something on the side opposite the Moon?
- fiatjaf 9y ago
  > Sunlight has significant blue light. (This makes sense, considering that our sensitivity to blue light evolved in order to sync to the day/night cycle). Your thesis about the evolution of our sensitivity to blue light comes from the fact that sunlight has blue light, but now you're using (a) to prove (b).
  - tzs 9y ago
    Most general discussion on the net about the adverse effects of blue light is in the context of artificial light, such as from screens. People sometimes get the mistaken impression from this that natural light does not have significant blue content, and the bad effects of blue light in artificial sources comes from blue light being something that we did not evolve to deal with it all. The point of the parenthetical comment was that our sensitivity to blue light is not because it is something we did not naturally encounter and so it is some kind of irritant we have not developed a tolerance for, but rather because we evolved sensitivity to it as a way to sense the day/night cycle, so of course there is significant blue light in sunlight. If there wasn't we would not have developed sensitivity to it. We would have developed sensitivity to some other color that is significant in sunlight. It probably could have been phrased better.
    - 9y ago
RandallBrown 9y ago
I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail this summer and spent 4 months sleeping outside. My body very quickly adjusted to sleeping when the sun went down and waking up when the sun came up. Lots of thru-hikers experience a post hike depression, myself included, but I always thought it was mostly about being back in the real world with real responsibilities. Maybe it has to do with light? I did notice that when I was in a town staying in a hotel I would always stay up much later than I did when I was on the trail.
- _ener_ 9y ago
  I recently hiked in the US during 3 months and i had exactly this same feeling. My body quickly adjusted to day/night cycle and experienced this post-hike depression feeling. I'm also wondering if it's related to light because at the end of the hike when I was back to my house i would always stay awake until 3 to 4am during several weeks and it was really hard to recalibrate my sleep cycle.
- taylorlapeyre 9y ago
  Right now in San Francisco, Sunset is at 7:56pm and Sunrise is at 6:19am. If I went to sleep a little after the sun went down and a little after the sun came up, that's still at least 10 hours of sleep a day. I'm a little surprised - I've heard that this amount of sleep is actually unhealthy!
- dannyr 9y ago
  4 months on PCT? Where did you start and end? Looking to do PCT in a few years. Do you have it documented somewhere? Thanks.
  - RandallBrown 9y ago
    I started at the Mexican Border and finished at the Canadian border. http://pct.adventuresnotvacations.com http://pct.adventuresnotvacations.com
    - dannyr 9y ago
jccalhoun 9y ago
I'm lucky that I rarely have problem falling asleep. Light used to bother me but then I worked 3rd shift for a few months and now light doesn't really bother me when I try to sleep.
Senderman 9y ago
It strikes me as imbalanced to do away with artificial light at night, but to then do nothing about artificial darkness during the day: She spent most of the experiment indoors, working in an office.
TACIXAT 9y ago
I've used red shift apps, cut out sugar and caffeine, got controllable lights that follow a day night cycle. I still stay up late. The last thing I can figure is back lit screens, but that is a bit harder for me to live without.
- sixstringtheory 9y ago
  Of course I’m making a few assumptions here, but it sounds like your problem is that you just don’t shut off that part of your brain to allow it to relax, so you can fall asleep. I don’t care how dark or redshifted your screen is, it’s also the content on it and what it is making your mind do. Try stopping all electronics mid evening, watch the sun set, and read or write (not on electronics!) for an hour or so.
miv62265 9y ago
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tcfunk 9y ago
I tend to sleep very well, regardless of screen time or caffeine intake. However I think this has mostly to do with the fact that I don't sleep enough and my mind/body cherishes what little rest I allow.
ggggtez 9y ago
>Because I needed to maintain a normal work schedule, I also decided to keep the lights on until 18:00, although I switched my laptop to ‘night mode’ after sunset. So, they didn't "live without artificial light". They just used candle-light after dark, and didn't watch TV. Not impressed.
jdlyga 9y ago
Artificial light suppresses melatonin. But no worries, I have a bottle of artificial melatonin too.
Starwatcher2001 9y ago
You might find this talk by Paul Reading interesting. Paul is a consultant neurologist who specialises in sleep disorders, and who is a past president of the British Sleep Society. Don't let the amateur video editing put you off, the content is so interesting, I attended the talk at two different venues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSoqQF93lU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSoqQF93lU (1/2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCjDUYjnfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCjDUYjnfg (2/2)

Buy Amazon Kindle today

I use this https://justgetflux.com/ https://justgetflux.com/ everywhere and helps lot to sleep even if you get exposed to screens. I am not sure about Kindle before sleep. It has some bright light however it is better than reading book in lamp light. Candles are good but should not be used for long as smoke starts to build up. I would like to know other views.

soziawa 9y ago
How is it better than reading a book in lamp light? You can just buy a sensible lamp for reading.
czechdeveloper 9y ago
Windows 10 now supports flux-like behavior (night light) out of box. I no longer have need to even install flux. Not sure about Apple.
- marksomnian 9y ago
  iOS supports it as well - actually there was a controversy when Apple removed f.lux from the app store and then rolled out its own similar feature if I recall correctly.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    Orthogonal to your point, but f.lux was never in the App Store because it had to use a private API to pull it off. They did offer it as an Xcode project for a while, IIRC.
- nijaru 9y ago
  I still use flux since I prefer to filter out some blue light during the day, keeping it around 5500K.
  - dogma1138 9y ago
    Not to rain on your parade but get a colorimeter and check your screen I’ve used my xrite i1 pro and the amount of blue light doesn’t actually change that much when you switch your white point temperature to warmer settings and especially when it’s as high as 5500K.
  - czechdeveloper 9y ago
    Flux helps just with one part. Relax in evening due to removal of blue light. But second part is, that in morning and during day, you really should see blue/full spectrum and intensive light. Either by going outside, or you can buy some light therapy lamp that provides you with this (when natural light is impossible). I do not think it's good idea to deprive yourself of blue light whole day.
- mateuszf 9y ago
  It's called Night Shift on OSX and it's also builtin
- mathnode 9y ago
  MacOS, Windows 10, and Gnome 3 all have a night mode now.
dogma1138 9y ago
Windows, MacOS, iOS and I believe now Android have it built in, it can help but it’s not that great if you’ll be using your screen till bed time. White point adjustment doesn’t actually reduces the amount of blue light by that much it’s really due to how LCD screens and their color filters work, some monitors a have built in function to turn on a blue light filter which can also be used in conjunction with white point adjustment e.g Flux which does help it reduce it further. Which is why I stop all screen use 45min before bed time, more would be too much of a burden for me and less wouldn’t be effective but you should experiment with what works for you. I also found that watching my OLED TV has considerably smaller effect on me than my computer screens or phone if I use them just before bed. I don’t know if this is due to the nature of the screen since it doesn’t use backlight hence less blue light or is it just due to the fact that the perceived brightness is lower due to the watching distance.
- Matt3o12_ 9y ago
  Unfortunately Apples version for flux (night shift) is not available older Macs and only available for very few displays (only the few Apple made themselves and a few of their recommended one).
  - paulsutter 9y ago
    Apple recommends displays? Ever since they discontinued their own display, I've had a dickens of a time using third party displays. My current display flickers for 30-60 seconds before becoming usable on wake, and I would love to night shift again. Where's the list?
    - veidr 9y ago
      Here is the list: 1. LG UltraFine monitors THE END Sadly, recommendation notwithstanding, I bought 2 of these 5K monitors for my iMac Pro, but they have the same funky waking problems you describe, and sometimes one doesn't even come on at all, until the machine is rebooted. T_T (Night Shift does work on them, though. But auto-brightness doesn't, so it's like a soft orange-ish screen in the middle and two BRIGHT AND FIERY ORANGE SCREENS blazing at you at night, unless you manually adjust the brightness...)
mikro2nd 9y ago
If smoke is building up from a few candles you have bigger ventilation issues to worry about and fix than light colour or intensity tweaking. CO2 buildup will certainly affect your quality of life (and sleep).
Shorel 9y ago
Some Kobo models have adaptive light, that is, blueish during the day, reddish at night.

bengrunfeld 9y ago

Interesting results but a very badly written article. The author draaaaawwwwssss it out, trying to get you to read to the end so that you can find out her findings. It's a cheap, shitty writing strategy. At one point, I got bored and scrolled all the way to the bottom to see if there was a concise summary of the results found, but even those were drawn out randomly across multiple paragraphs. Like I said, good info but very badly written.

jaggederest 9y ago

I find that when I am in rural areas, I sleep like a rock. I think it has as much to do with sound as light. But certainly good light exposure during the day, a dark, quiet sleeping environment, and a routine schedule make an incredibly significant impact in me (someone who has normally struggled with insomnia)

jaclaz 9y ago
>I find that when I am in rural areas, I sleep like a rock. >I think it has as much to do with sound as light. You are an exception I believe (if you normally live in the city), I live in the country and I am used to it (and conversely I have sometimes some issues when sleeping in a city, mainly due to traffic noise, but not only) but when some friends come and stay, often they are disturbed by the thousand little noises of animals, birds, etc., particularly in the early morning in spring when the birds start singing around 5 A.M.
- jaggederest 9y ago
  Grew up in the country, and I sleep with earplugs in to boot. City noises punch right through them, amazingly enough, traffic rocks the foundation of my house enough there's no escape. Planning the purchase of somewhere peaceful and remote as we speak.

nukeop 9y ago

I don't think living completely without artificial lights and screens is possible for a vast majority of HN users. Remember to completely shut your bedroom out at night though, it has to be completely, 100% pitch black. It improves the sleep quality a lot.

antonp 9y ago
From my anecdotal evidence I see that sleep robustness can be strongly shaped by conditioning when we're younger. Ex: having your children sleep in bedrooms with open doors with a dim light source on will make them into one of those "I sleep through everything" sleepers. Curious to hear other people's experience.
- ccozan 9y ago
  Interesting. I cannot go asleep unless is pitch black. On the other side we used our kids to sleep with some dim light in the room, so they can sleep at noon in plain bright sun no problem, which I can't :). Other than that, we also used them to get asleep on some background noise ( some silly TV or Radio show, foreign language, for example ), and after they are asleep I can talk normally near them, work, etc. Again, a thing I cannot do, if I hear a noise, the slightest, I am awake and my sleep is gone.
- tomcooks 9y ago
  Grew up in a very rural area (maximum of 2 cars passing by my window everyday) and used to sleep in pitch dark. I could get robbed, bombed and receive a kidney transplant without noticing - so yes it's anecdotal, curious as well
  - isostatic 9y ago
    Once I'm asleep I can sleep through a lot (and even if I do wake up, get out of bed, and put the kids in the shower after they've been sick - I have no memory of it in the morning) However getting to sleep is tricky. I've found two things that seem to work. One is listening to Legally Blonde the musical on repeat with headphones on -- on a plane even where I don't get a bed this allows me to sleep for a good 6 or so hours on an overnight flight. It's weird, I think I had it on once some years ago and fell asleep, now my brain feels to be "conditioned". If I listen to it I start feeling sleepy. The other is at home where it's quiet, dark, and no movement. I start thinking about orbital mechanics (at least as much as KSP has taught me), and I usually fall asleep fairly quickly.

dsign 9y ago

Ha! That about artificial light and screens is a bit ... wanting the blame the artificial. I find that natural sunlight makes sleeping tough business close to the poles.

ggm 9y ago

Body of story does not match title of story here or the BBC. It's "what I learned kind-of minimising artificial light at night, but not actually complete because I used redshifted apps and a lot of ... Well.. artificial, cold cathode and LED light. And anyway it's darkish outside so anecdote but also S.A.D. is a thing." I think the story premise is great. The execution leaves a lot to be desired. I'm trying not to feed the snark. But, really, I think they could have gone harder for a better story. Kids makes it hard.

gurp 9y ago
Yeah, the headline is just a lie.
egypturnash 9y ago
What I learnt in tying to cut out artificial light at night: Cutting out artificial light at night is fucking hard. Here are the compromises I made and the results I got.

skrebbel 9y ago

Does anyone know how effective "computer with flux/nightlight/etc" is compared to "no computer at all, write stuff by candlelight on paper"? Is flux/nightlight getting me most of the way (assuming no super blue/white lights in the house), or is it hardly getting me started? I bet this has been studied but I don't know where to look.

jedberg 9y ago
There aren't actually a lot of good studies on comparing different sources of "candlelight". Most studies assume the quality of 1850K light is the same regardless of the source. My personal anecdote is that it makes no difference to my sleep quality. I've used an 1850K lamp for reading before bed, and I've used my monitor with flux, and it doesn't seem to make a difference.
veidr 9y ago
I don't know that, although I once tried hard to google it. What I do know, though, is that for me these orange-tinted blue-light-blocking safety glasses (which I learned about from somebody else on this very forum discussing this exact topic a few years ago) work way better than any screen-modifying software I have tried. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000USRG90/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000USRG90/ref=oh_aui_sear... They look a bit silly but if you are just at home, who cares... (I no longer use them, because in the intervening years I produced three young children, so I am now exhausted at all times and can fall asleep instantly whenever the opportunity presents itself. However, I still do use Night Shift / Night Mode / f.lux / Windows Blue Light Filter on all my phones and computers, because I came to strongly prefer it after getting used to it, even in absence of sleep issues.)
- sshagent 9y ago
  Random tangent, but that last statement about having 3 kids and instantly falling asleep whenever the opportunity presents itself rings really true for me. I had major sleep problems until i had 3 kids. 4 years of 2 new borns + heavy callout. Took about 3 years to recover from that but i'd fall asleep anywhere i sat still long enough. Glad thats all behind me, i hope you're getting some good sleep.

jedberg 9y ago

I've done a lot of research on sleep and sleep disorders, and have experimented on myself a few different times. Things I've found that help the most: Number one, far and away, is arranging my schedule such that I don't have to set an alarm clock. I did this once in college when I was able to get only late classes, and I do it now since I work for myself (although the kids sometimes wake me up). Any time I can go for a week or more without setting any alarm clock, I feel far more refreshed throughout the day. Number two, no blue light at night. I went a little nuts with this one, not only getting flux, but I work in the dark at night with the brightness on the monitor at the lowest setting with a blue filter, and I also replaced all the night lights in my house with special night lights that run at 1850K (candlelight). I also installed a second light in bathroom with it's own switch and installed an 1850K LED bulb in it so that I could do my nighttime routine in "candlelight". Basically, after the kids are down, there is no source of blue light anywhere in my house. These two things seem to have made the most difference. I've done other experiments with temperature control, sleeping position, bedroom darkness, etc. They all seem to make some difference as well, but not nearly as much as those first two things.

bamboozled 9y ago
You could take this one step further and just say NO devices or TV at night or after 7pm, period. I can honestly say it's been game changing for me to do this. I just read paper books now, taken a while to get into the habit but my sleep has improved so dramatically since then. Also, my phone charger lives in the kitchen, so my phone doesn't come to bed with me, also a dramatic improvement. What is strange about all this is that fluorescents, while not pleasant to use, don't seem to keep my up like devices do. In that I can have one on for 30 minutes before bed and sleep well. Maybe it's not the light but the stimulation that affects us?
- jedberg 9y ago
  > You could take this one step further and just say NO devices or TV at night or after 7pm, period. I've done that before and it didn't make any difference for me. If I read a book on a screen or on paper before bed, it doesn't seem to matter, as long as the light is 1850K.

tintor 9y ago

Use of candlelight increases your risk of home fire significantly. Better use LEDs that are similar to candles.

amelius 9y ago
Candlelight is also artificial light ...
- glastra 9y ago
  Exactly. Came here expecting an article on someone who used sunlight only and how that affects life, ability to do work, sleep, health... And found an article on someone who removed blue light, while keeping artificial candles for dark times.

FrozenVoid 9y ago

I just disable the blue light entirely in monitor settings. Setting the colors which include blue(magenta, cyan,blue) to 0 stops that entirely. The only drawback is that colors in images that have blue are replaced by gray/black tones(which isn't a problem for me at all).

bojanvidanovic 9y ago

Some time ago I discovered my left eye is suffering from astigmatism and I needed glasses to correct it. I was suggested to order glasses with a blue-light filter and it's been a game changer for me ever since.

SuperChihuahua 9y ago

This was also discussed in a good book about sleep I read a few weeks ago: Why we sleep https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501144316/ https://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Sleep-Unlocking-Dreams/dp/1501...

hownottowrite 9y ago

Highly recommend A. Roger Ekrich’s At Day’s Close: http://books.wwnorton.com/books/At-Days-Close/ http://books.wwnorton.com/books/At-Days-Close/ Not only is it a great book on the subject, but the writing is exquisite.

lonk 9y ago

TL;DR; Article is very long, 4,744 words. Last paragraph is summary: "It’s ridiculously simple. But spending more time outdoors during the daytime and dimming the lights in the evening really could be a recipe for better sleep and health. "

garganzol 9y ago
This. I am a person prone to bipolar disorder and it made a huge improvement for me. You can also add a natural anti-depressant (coffee, red bull) at the morning and depressant (milk, yogurt) at the evening to the mix. Another advice is to avoid working with Flux / Night Shift at the evenings. This sends conflicting signals to the brain: warm screen light asks for relax but the need to work asks for concentration and focus. This does not go well together. But you totally can watch an entertaining/scientific YouTube channels with Flux / Night Shift on at the evening. It will gradually drag you to a very good sleep. The good thing it is repeatable, so you can follow this deeply satisfying pattern everyday. EDIT: Bipolar disorder, not bistable disorder.
- cimmanom 9y ago
  What is bistable disorder, if you don't mind my asking? I couldn't find anything about it on google.
  - garganzol 9y ago
    My mistake, I wanted to say "bipolar disorder".

petercooper 9y ago

I think I'm wired up back to front. I sleep very well. My problem is daylight! It drains me and I can't wait for the evening. At night I find it easy to be alert and when I've adopted a nocturnal schedule, I've been happier and more productive. I've just shut the blinds and turned off the lights in the office to get some work done..(!)

John_KZ 9y ago

Do people really manage to go more than a few days with less than 6-7 hours of sleep? I don't know anyone that does it. Also the article conveniently forgets how many near-isolated tribes with zero exposure to artificial light never sleep through the whole night, they wake up in intervals and often sleep very lightly because there's danger looming at all times. Sure, artificial light can be an issue, but if you practice self-restrain with screentime and get a lightbulb with a warmer tone for the late evening hours then your problem will be solved (if it even was caused by light exposure in the first place, and it usually isn't).

Lxr 9y ago

Sam Altman concurs with the benefits of morning light: > I use a full spectrum LED light most mornings for about 10-15 minutes while I catch up on email. It’s great—if you try nothing else in here, this is the thing I’d try. https://blog.samaltman.com/productivity https://blog.samaltman.com/productivity

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075H39NDL https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075H39NDL is the one he mentions (not available). It's 5500K and it says it mimics midday sun; I wonder if that could be harmful long term, as you're shocking your body awake - "it's midday, get up!" - rather than following a natural progression from dark to morning-light.

k__ 9y ago

I only set an alarm, when I need to travel. I sleep like 9h if no one wakes me up.

upofadown 9y ago

Note that there were two aspects mentioned in the article. Reducing exposure to bright/blue light after dark and increasing exposure to bright/blue light in the daytime. The first is relatively easy to do for most people but the second tends to be harder if you work indoors.

timonoko 9y ago

Tell me about it. If you live the summer far above the arctic circle, you will soon lose your precious synchronicity. You sleep when there is nothing else to do, 12 hours if needed. Fishermen seem to prefer past midnight hours because the wind is minimal and flying bugs come close to water attracting salmon. And afternoons are best time to sleep, as there might be excess heat and mosquitoes fly high. I find these conditions to be the optimal, and feel quite depressed when the annoying darkness gradually creeps in.

tvanantwerp 9y ago

Has anyone here who wears glasses tried prescription blue-light-filtering lenses? I can't really use the orange glasses lots of people recommend in the evenings because they don't fit well over my glasses--even the clip-ons I bought don't sit right. I've read a bit about prescription lenses that filter blue light, but haven't tried it. I'm curious if anyone else has an what their experience was like.

graeme 9y ago
https://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S0360X-Ultra-spec-SCT-Orange-Anti-Fog/dp/B003OBZ64M/ https://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S0360X-Ultra-spec-SCT-Orange-Ant... These work great. I wear glasses and they are very comfortable over them.
- tvanantwerp 9y ago
  Bought a pair and started using them. Thank you for the recommendation!
JesseWright 9y ago
A few years ago, about when I was a sophomore in college, I started wearing glasses with lenses that filter blue light (BluTech lenses in my case). My optometrist recommended them at the time and said they were great for people who sit at computer screens most of the day. For that, they work exceptionally well: they just subtly change the color of everything, meaning you can still see normal colors but with just a slight off-white tint, and seem to be way easier on my eyes. I ended up getting a second pair that goes over my normal contacts because I get headaches after an hour or two of being at the computer without my glasses. I can't work without them. I haven't really noticed a particular difference when it comes to how they affect or improve my sleep or ability to fall asleep though. The most useful decision I've made to that end is to stop using my computer about an hour before I plan on going to bed. In my case, at least, it's not the blue light that seems to keep me up but how active my brain is close to bedtime. I have to give it time to unwind. I've never noticed my glasses helping with that. Your mileage may vary though.

anonu 9y ago

Having grown up in a place with constant blackouts, I had too many nights living on candle light. Granted, this was before smartphones...

baldfat 9y ago

Bad research! > Pre-industrial societies such as the Hadza tribe in Tanzania also seem to have a far lower prevalence of sleep problems, like insomnia. “When we asked members of the Hadza whether they thought their sleep was good, they almost universally said ‘yes, it’s totally fine’. That statistically doesn't match up with what we see in the West,” says David Samson, an anthropologist at the University of Toronto in Mississauga, who has studied them. This is what they actually found from that Tribe and a second one. They actually got less sleep then people do living with artificial lights. > The team asked 94 people from these groups to wear Actiwatch-2 devices, which automatically recorded their activity and ambient-light levels. The data revealed that these groups all sleep for nightly blocks of 6.9 and 8.5 hours, and they spend at least 5.7 to 7.1 hours of those soundly asleep. That’s no more than what Westerners who have worn the same watches get; if anything, it’s slightly less. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many-myths-of-paleo-sleeping/410707/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many... UCLA study - http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/our-ancestors-probably-didnt-get-8-hours-a-night-either http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/our-ancestors-probably-did... This was talking about the idea that we naturally sleep a little and wake for a few hours and then go back to sleep as some normal human sleep pattern. The idea is still the same we sleep about the same in modern times. I have had to read a lot of ancient documents and in those documents they talk a lot about bad sleep medicine. If they sleep so well why do we have so many sleep fixes in those documents. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4939-2089-1_4 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4939-2089-... (Just focused on India documents on sleep from 4,000 years ago.

gregwebs 9y ago
That's a great study on hunter-gather sleep duration that I think helps bust some myths about sleep duration. The quote you are trying to refute though is about sleep quality issues like insomnia, which may still be much lower in hunter-gather groups.

tzs 9y ago

Sunlight has significant blue light. (This makes sense, considering that our sensitivity to blue light evolved in order to sync to the day/night cycle). But what about moonlight? Surely our intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (the cells that handle the sensing for syncing) and the syncing mechanism using them evolved back when our early hominid ancestors lived and slept outdoors. Does the Moon do a poor job of reflecting the blue components of sunlight? Or did our ancestors have bad sleep during those times of month when the Moon was up in the early evening? Or is the reflected light from the Moon dim enough that the blue component does not reach some minimum threshold to activate the retinal ganglion cells? Or did they simply find a place to sleep behind a tree or rock or something on the side opposite the Moon?

fiatjaf 9y ago
> Sunlight has significant blue light. (This makes sense, considering that our sensitivity to blue light evolved in order to sync to the day/night cycle). Your thesis about the evolution of our sensitivity to blue light comes from the fact that sunlight has blue light, but now you're using (a) to prove (b).
- tzs 9y ago
  Most general discussion on the net about the adverse effects of blue light is in the context of artificial light, such as from screens. People sometimes get the mistaken impression from this that natural light does not have significant blue content, and the bad effects of blue light in artificial sources comes from blue light being something that we did not evolve to deal with it all. The point of the parenthetical comment was that our sensitivity to blue light is not because it is something we did not naturally encounter and so it is some kind of irritant we have not developed a tolerance for, but rather because we evolved sensitivity to it as a way to sense the day/night cycle, so of course there is significant blue light in sunlight. If there wasn't we would not have developed sensitivity to it. We would have developed sensitivity to some other color that is significant in sunlight. It probably could have been phrased better.
  - 9y ago

RandallBrown 9y ago

I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail this summer and spent 4 months sleeping outside. My body very quickly adjusted to sleeping when the sun went down and waking up when the sun came up. Lots of thru-hikers experience a post hike depression, myself included, but I always thought it was mostly about being back in the real world with real responsibilities. Maybe it has to do with light? I did notice that when I was in a town staying in a hotel I would always stay up much later than I did when I was on the trail.

_ener_ 9y ago
I recently hiked in the US during 3 months and i had exactly this same feeling. My body quickly adjusted to day/night cycle and experienced this post-hike depression feeling. I'm also wondering if it's related to light because at the end of the hike when I was back to my house i would always stay awake until 3 to 4am during several weeks and it was really hard to recalibrate my sleep cycle.
taylorlapeyre 9y ago
Right now in San Francisco, Sunset is at 7:56pm and Sunrise is at 6:19am. If I went to sleep a little after the sun went down and a little after the sun came up, that's still at least 10 hours of sleep a day. I'm a little surprised - I've heard that this amount of sleep is actually unhealthy!
dannyr 9y ago
4 months on PCT? Where did you start and end? Looking to do PCT in a few years. Do you have it documented somewhere? Thanks.
- RandallBrown 9y ago
  I started at the Mexican Border and finished at the Canadian border. http://pct.adventuresnotvacations.com http://pct.adventuresnotvacations.com
  - dannyr 9y ago

jccalhoun 9y ago

I'm lucky that I rarely have problem falling asleep. Light used to bother me but then I worked 3rd shift for a few months and now light doesn't really bother me when I try to sleep.

Senderman 9y ago

It strikes me as imbalanced to do away with artificial light at night, but to then do nothing about artificial darkness during the day: She spent most of the experiment indoors, working in an office.

TACIXAT 9y ago

I've used red shift apps, cut out sugar and caffeine, got controllable lights that follow a day night cycle. I still stay up late. The last thing I can figure is back lit screens, but that is a bit harder for me to live without.

sixstringtheory 9y ago
Of course I’m making a few assumptions here, but it sounds like your problem is that you just don’t shut off that part of your brain to allow it to relax, so you can fall asleep. I don’t care how dark or redshifted your screen is, it’s also the content on it and what it is making your mind do. Try stopping all electronics mid evening, watch the sun set, and read or write (not on electronics!) for an hour or so.

miv62265 9y ago

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tcfunk 9y ago

I tend to sleep very well, regardless of screen time or caffeine intake. However I think this has mostly to do with the fact that I don't sleep enough and my mind/body cherishes what little rest I allow.

ggggtez 9y ago

>Because I needed to maintain a normal work schedule, I also decided to keep the lights on until 18:00, although I switched my laptop to ‘night mode’ after sunset. So, they didn't "live without artificial light". They just used candle-light after dark, and didn't watch TV. Not impressed.

jdlyga 9y ago

Artificial light suppresses melatonin. But no worries, I have a bottle of artificial melatonin too.

Starwatcher2001 9y ago

You might find this talk by Paul Reading interesting. Paul is a consultant neurologist who specialises in sleep disorders, and who is a past president of the British Sleep Society. Don't let the amateur video editing put you off, the content is so interesting, I attended the talk at two different venues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSoqQF93lU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXSoqQF93lU (1/2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCjDUYjnfg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCjDUYjnfg (2/2)