20 ms·
Google starts blocking “uncertified” Android devices from logging in
- aaomidi 9y agoGoogle has slowly but surely started approaching the walled garden approach put forth by Apple. It is totally within their right to do this. I understand why they're doing this. I'm not happy with it.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ksk 9y agoShouldn't the customer also have a right to do whatever they want with the device they paid good money for? Google is intentionally disabling the device without providing any evidence of breach of terms. I don't agree that this is their right.
- joshuamorton 9y agoThis gives a consumer the ability to do whatever they want with a device[1]. Its a change aimed at stopping OEMs from providing unlicensed devices. (Edit: or really from providing official Google apps on those devices. There's nothing wrong with forking Android for your device, but Google does want to control whether or not Gmail runs on it, especially if that device doesn't meet certain standards.) [1]: See the "custom ROM" thing at the bottom. There's a caveat that the current implementation has a limit of 100 device ids. There's some discussion/debate about what that will end up meaning. If it ends up meaning 100 devices, that's fine for any consumer use pattern. It may in practice end up meaning 100 flashes, which is/could be problematic for certain users (custom ROM developers, as an example).
- michaelmrose 9y agoApparently google isn't smart enough to realize people aren't rational. People think of finite resources differently than infinite resource and any such counter is perceptively a counter ticking away towards losing access to accessing your email and apps and the logically emotional response is to ditch google entirely next upgrade cycle even if you will never reasonably reach zero.
- landryraccoon 9y agoIf you were right, Apple wouldn't be printing money as much as they do. Android users will ditch google and switch to... What? Apple? Where you can't install anything at all except through the tightly controlled Apple app store?
- glogla 9y agoWell if you get zero openness with both Google and Apple, you might as well get the privacy protection of Apple with it, right?
- jhasse 9y agoopenness isn't zero with Android, e.g. you can install alternative app stores.
- michaelmrose 9y agoYou mean where the ones where the apps you want don't exist or the one which works on Amazon. Apt sources don't require permission to use them with a particular device.
- jhasse 9y agoStill more apps than in iOS's alternative app stores.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
- ksk 9y agoIn cases where users' freedoms for legitimate uses are curtailed I believe we should be siding with the end users. Maybe in time we will see microsoft banning chrome, firefox, steam etc from running on devices not certified by MS. Its "their OS" so "its their right".
- joshuamorton 9y agoBut the end user can do whatever they want. The end user is free to install a custom ROM and use GApps. They have to jump through an extra hoop. This would be like Microsoft banning Lenovo from sticking unlicensed copies of windows on Lenovo laptops. Something which Microsoft already does.
- ksk 9y agoWell my analogy was that the 'service' MS provides is the OS Platform API, and its blocking applications from executing on their platform. Which would be ridiculous. A user should be able to run any software they want. Similarly, as a user (paid or otherwise) of Google's services, unless specific evidence is given that the user is abusing their services, Google is in the wrong here of blocking someone preemptively.
- joshuamorton 9y agoWhat end user do you feel is being blocked from using what software? I have a feeling you misunderstand what's actually happening here.
- closeparen 9y agoGoogle is not blocking third-party apps from running on its platform. It's blocking its own proprietary apps from running on third-party platforms which happen to share the same base. A more appropriate analogy might be MS not releasing Internet Explorer for the Mac... which they haven't since IE5.
- zokier 9y ago> Google is intentionally disabling the device What? They are blocking the device from using Googles services. The device will continue to work just fine. Which leads to > do whatever they want with the device they paid good money for Yes, customer has the right to do whatever they want on their device, but that does not extend to (ab)use Googles service in whatever way they want.
- ksk 9y ago>but that does not extend to (ab)use Googles service in whatever way they want. That makes no sense. How have they abused it? There is no evidence of breach of terms provided.
- SparkyMcUnicorn 9y agoThe artical talks about OEM distributors/resellers abusing the terms.
- ksk 9y agoThe article is about blocking users. Google should sue the OEM's if they feel any terms have been violated.
- vorpalhex 9y agoYes, and the consumer has the right to do whatever they want with the hardware and OSS components of Android. They don't have any right to use the Play Store or other Google specific components. You can sideload your own. FWIW, Google is allowing power-users a work around where you register the device to your own account, and then you can use their products. It seems as if they're targeting bootleggers who may be selling tampered products to non-savvy consumers, which isn't unreasonable imo.
- ksk 9y ago>They don't have any right to use the Play Store or other Google specific components. You can sideload your own. They do, if they purchased the device (and have a legitimate account with google). Google AFAIK has not provided any evidence to affected users detailing how they have breached their terms.
- vorpalhex 9y agoAndroid is an operating system that is open source. The Google Play Store is a proprietary software package that is released on some devices which use a proprietary licensed version of Android. Using the open source operating system known as Android does not entitle you magically to Google's other proprietary software. Google only gives the Play Store to some certified hardware handsets, that meet requirements they arbitrarily decide on. There was an issue with vendors, who were using open source Android (legally), sideloading the proprietary Google play store without permission (illegal) and then selling that to Consumers. Again, you can sideload your own different store that isn't Google Play. Your account isn't being banned or restricted - you can sign in on Google Play on a valid device that's allowed to have it - but this is Google's only recourse against manufacturers sideloading the Play store when they aren't allowed to.
- ksk 9y ago>There was an issue with vendors, who were using open source Android (legally), sideloading the proprietary Google play store without permission (illegal) and then selling that to Consumers. Users are seeing this also with Google's own hardware. https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=76004552&postcount=1361 https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=76004552&pos... The more I read about it, the more I am against Google's actions here.
- JarlUlvi 9y agoGoogle changes the Apple Walled Garden into a giant hoover designed to exploit users personal information, to sell it all to their real customers - advertisers.
- paulie_a 9y agoI am happy with it, I hope they go further and outright ban OEMs and carriers from installing anything that can't be removed I am tired of awesome hardware that Verizon/Samsung/att decide to take a gigantic shit on with their custom garbage software
- judge2020 9y agoGoogle is in a partnership with Verizon on the pixel 2, they wouldn't risk losing that deal by preventing OEMs from installing the bloatware they want on people's phones.
- paulie_a 9y agoI really can't comprehend why a company would spend the engineering effort to install stuff on a perfectly good os. "Hey so let's make the user experience worse"
- TeMPOraL 9y agoFor the same reason so much engineering talent works in adtech, which is also all about making user experience worse - because there's money to be made there, and people involved don't give a shit.
- pjmlp 9y agoJust like they overwrite Windows drivers with their own flashy ones for a "better experience".
- jotm 9y agoThough unless they somehow own the hardware and fully own the software, this might not be a bad thing. People will open their eyes and third party stores will get a chance (of course, that comes with it's own set of security/privacy/etc problems, but that's a different matter).
- peterwwillis 9y agoI'm actually hoping they get more draconian. Before when people tried to make FOSS smartphone software/hardware it lost momentum, because 1) it's hard and 2) people could just use Google's stuff for free. My hope is that by them becoming more Apple/Microsoft-esque, they push people to make better alternatives. But it's really hard to get people unhooked from "free".
- larkeith 9y agoIt's certainly not a huge market slice relative to Google, but Purism raised 2.5m for the FOSS Librem 5 [1], so there's still some momentum there. [1] https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
- lokopodium 9y agoExcept Android devices without their services are still perfectly workable. Many security-paranoid people I know run Lineageos/plain AOSP happily.
- gleenn 9y agoI don't agree its their right to do this. Slowly changing the ecosystem from one purporting to be open source to a walled garden is not what I signed up for. A big selling point of AOSP was to have an open place for people to develop that would be less encumbered by a single company like Apple. Sadly Google has been slowly moving code out of AOSP into the proprietary portion.
- on_and_off 9y agoThis has nothing to do with open or close source. Play Services have always been close source.
- hanbura 9y agoI'm glad to see they left a door open for users of custom ROMs. While inconvenient, it will end up as just another item on the already complicated guides for installing custom ROMs. Let's just hope this option doesn't disappear one day
- ocdtrekkie 9y agoNote that it appears there is a 100 registration limit per Google account. And each factory reset changes the ID the phone is registered under. For a lot of ROM folks, this is probably not going to last very long.
- sesutton 9y agoIs it possible to deactivate old IDs?
- kuschku 9y agoNo – it’s 100 times of installing ROMs per lifetime, then you’re EOL.
- rorosaurus 9y agoWow, if that's true, that changes the whole tone of this. Hopefully this is just a temporary oversight, and Google allows the opportunity to delete and reuse these 100 slots.
- ocdtrekkie 9y agoI suspect if they were intended to be "reusable slots", it would be a drastically smaller number, like... five.
- nstart 9y agoWhich is actually fine. 5 is restrictive but 15 is just fine.
- merb 9y agoWell this is neither bad nor good. Because custom Roms will have a hatch out of it. This is against something the article itself describes: > We've actually been unknowing victims of illicit Google app distribution here at Ars before. We once imported a Xiaomi Redmi 3 smartphone from China to review, and, upon booting it up, we were very surprised to find it came with the Google apps pre-installed. As a device from China, this should not have happened. After we posted the review, Xiaomi contacted us with some very scary news: "The Redmi 3 should not come with Google Play pre-installed because it is a China-only product." Xiaomi told Ars. "It is very likely that the Play Store you saw was preinstalled by the importer/seller. This is a very common practice with the unauthorised importers." > This would mean the reseller opened our phone, unlocked the bootloader, flashed on a new ROM with Google Play, re-locked the bootloader, and stuck the phone back in the box. There was no obvious evidence that our device had been tampered with, and, while hopefully the seller only installed Google apps, they could have just as easily loaded malware onto the device. A message like this during setup would have been a big red flag that something was wrong. Which I find quite disturbing. That a seller (even on Amazon) could import cheaper "china" only phones and sell it to me as the EU/US version. (it's basically incorrectly labeled) Edit: formatting
- distantsounds 9y agothe english language already has characters like commas and periods to delineate sentences, inserting newlines and '>' characters is only breaking the flow. this is really bad form.
- Dylan16807 9y agoEnglish doesn't have a standard way to do block quotes. And you definitely need block quotes when it's an entire paragraph containing its own quotes. Using ">" is just fine as a way to accomplish that goal.
- fao_ 9y agoThe newlines are for markdown not to automatically join the sentences, and the `>` is a standard internet quote colloquialism.
- marssaxman 9y agoHaving always been careful about ensuring that my Android phones don't accidentally get logged into any Google account, I'm all for this change and glad that Google is actually making life easier for once.
- Tharkun 9y agoI find this very hard to do. Which Android devices do you use? Most of the ones I've touched don't have an obvious way to opt out of google crapware and google accounts.
- marssaxman 9y agoI currently have a Moto G; I previously used a Moto X, and before that a Galaxy Nexus. Of course the google apps nag me to log in or create an account, if I happen to launch one by accident, but the phone itself works fine without one. For one of the phones I couldn't find a way to get through setup without creating a google account, so I just entered a bunch of garbage info, then deleted or froze all the google related services and reset the accounts database. Its sole entry after that was my Signal login.
- codedokode 9y agoOn my chinese noname Android 5.1 phone I didn't register on the initial screen and it just works without using Google account. I don't use Google Play and other Google apps though.
- natch 9y agoDo you think none of your data makes it to Google in any form if you aren't logged in? Like, say, use of maps and web browsing? Association between the data and you is easy. As long as you've ever logged in to Google on a desktop (or any device for that matter), and another third party non-Google account on the same device, the moment you log into that third-party (non-Google) account on the phone, your identity could be tied to the data by Google if Google has a data sharing partnership that enables that with the third party. Even if you refrain from logging in to a Google account on the phone.
- jmarinez 9y agoConsidering the state of affairs regarding transparency and privacy, one would think that they would define what “certified” actually means.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago"Certified" means they have signed Google's Mobile Applications Distribution Agreement, a confidential contract where Google permits access to Google Apps in exchange for the manufacturer agreeing to load up all of Google's required bloatware, set Google Search as default, comply with all of their compatibility requirements, and agree to not release any devices running alternative versions of Android. We don't have a current version of the MADA public, but you can see some old ones from 2011 here: http://www.benedelman.org/news-021314/ http://www.benedelman.org/news-021314/
- hbosch 9y agoThe biggest group of victims here is most probably those with Amazon devices that have Gapps sideloaded. Are there any other large segments this would affect, seeing has how custom ROM users are (for now) spared?
- zokier 9y agoI imagine that the body of (non-western) people who have gotten their phones from less scrupulous vendors would be significantly larger than the relatively small number of Amazon sideloaders.
- amaccuish 9y agoIs anyone else getting a "something went wrong" when trying to register your id?
- nstart 9y agoyep. Been trying for the past 30 minutes. Not sure if there's a surge of people trying to register devices suddenly.
- pishpash 9y agoGood. Let Google force open source replacements to their nosey apps. In the long run, this is shooting themselves in the foot. At this juncture, people don't really need Google apps other than perhaps Gmail, which has an IMAP endpoint.
- blablabla123 9y agoI think so too. There is so much adware and spyware in the Play Store, it's better for everyone to try alternatives from FDroid and other App Stores. Also it's a nice strategy so people forget that you cannot update most Android phones anyways. And IMHO their Google Apps Suite is actually far creepier than Facebook because it's literally with you all the time.
- Animats 9y agoGreat! Does this mean Google will stop installing PlayStore crap on my Android phone that doesn't have a Google account? I deleted all that stuff, but it came back with an update.
- makomk 9y agoNo, it means the exact opposite. This is another escalation of Google's efforts to ensure that all of their apps are installed on every Android phone sold whether users want them or not. Previously, some companies were working around the requirement that every device they sold had Google apps if they wanted the right to include them on any device by illicitly sideloading the apps; this makes that impossible.
- ktta 9y agoWhile people think this is a move to curl illicit app activity(which is the cover issue), I think there's a much bigger motive. It's the fight against Amazon. Depending on how strictly this is enforced, now Amazon Fire Tablet users won't be able to use Google Play store (they were able to with an apk till now) which cuts off access to the app ecosystem on the Google Play Store. Now there are quite a few apps on Amazon's App store[1], but obviously many users will feel the pain. So now they will not have access to the following - Google Assistant, Google Home and Google Maps which will hurt the most. [1]: https://www.amazon.com/mobile-apps/b/ref=topnav_storetab_mas?ie=UTF8&node=2350149011 https://www.amazon.com/mobile-apps/b/ref=topnav_storetab_mas...
- yellowbeard 9y agoGreat point, if this is the case, huge attack on Amazon.
- gman83 9y agoIs it really though? I doubt a large percentage of Kindle users actually go through the trouble of sideloading gapps.
- Someone1234 9y agoPlus I bet Amazon would welcome this if they did. Just more users for Amazon's own app store and ecosystem.
- ktta 9y agoOr if Google comes out and starts restricting more things, it just might result in users choosing other Android options. Samsung tablets are an option.
- thiagocsf 9y agoThis would explain why Amazon refuses to add support for chromecast to their streaming service.
- mehrdadn 9y agoHow do you find if a particular distro is blessed by Google? Is there a list I'm not aware of?
- morsch 9y agoThe hardware is either certified or it isn't; the distro (as in custom ROM version) isn't a factor.
- mehrdadn 9y agoOhh, interesting, okay thank you. In that case is there a list for the certified phones? EDIT: Actually, wait, are you sure this is correct? Didn't the article say "Users of custom Android ROMs—which wipe out the stock software and load a modified version of Android—will start seeing this message, too"? I was trying to figure out which ROMs that included.
- morsch 9y agoSort of: https://www.android.com/certified/partners https://www.android.com/certified/partners
- mehrdadn 9y agoHm, then what was that story about Xiaomi? It's listed there as a certified partner.
- morsch 9y agoXiaomi has started releasing Google certified hardware late last year[1][2]. AFAIK they still release non-certified hardware as well. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaomi_Mi_A1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaomi_Mi_A1 "a re-branded Xiaomi Mi 5X" [2] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/03/xiaomi-mi-a1-review-a-220-iphone-clone-with-stock-android-sign-us-up/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/03/xiaomi-mi-a1-review-...
- codedokode 9y agoI don't see any problem here. If you use custom ROM you probably don't want to give information about yourself to Google anyway. It would be even better if Google reviewed ROMs before certification. I have a noname chinese phone that sends data about the phone including a phone number to China (but Google is not much better - every time you enable geolocation it displays an annoying popup asking to agree to send GPS data to Google. Well, at least they ask for permission).
- txsh 9y agoKindle tablets
- thaumasiotes 9y agoSlightly off-topic, but I see this complaint a lot: > Android distributions that don't pass Google's compatibility requirements aren't allowed to be called "Android" (which is a registered trademark of Google) This is supposed to be a straitjacket that prevents everyone except Amazon from deviating from Google's Master Plan. It reminds me of what happened with personal computers, where, amid a field of slightly different hardware from different manufacturers, devices started to be sold as "IBM PC-compatible", which eventually just shortened to "PC" because nobody cares whether their computer has official IBM branding or not. What's stopping people from releasing phones with an "Android-compatible" OS? Who would care?
- bitmapbrother 9y ago>This is supposed to be a straitjacket that prevents everyone except Amazon from deviating from Google's Master Plan. Chinese OEM's that sell smartphones in China without Google Play Services would disagree.
- pmlnr 9y agoAn open source implementation of the to google services layer exists already: the microG project[^1]. Combine it with f-droid, and apps like Yalp store[^2], and the phone functions perfectly. I've made a guide a little while ago on how to do this on a Nomu S10, one of the cheap, MediaTek based, rugged phones[^3]. [^1]: https://microg.org/ https://microg.org/ [^2]: https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/ https://f-droid.org/packages/com.github.yeriomin.yalpstore/ [^3]: https://petermolnar.net/odexed-android-6-marshmallow-with-microg/ https://petermolnar.net/odexed-android-6-marshmallow-with-mi...
- agentdrtran 9y ago> the phone functions perfectly I guarantee it doesn't.
- pmlnr 9y agoI can send text, email, call someone. Travel apps, say, Ryanair, Easyjet, Booking, are working without a single glitch, including push notifications. Version 8 of Google Maps and version 3 of translate (the one with the 200+MB language packs that people actually understood, unlike the AI-powered 30MB ones in the new versions) don't need Google Services Framework, neither does Osmand. Netflix, Spotify, amazon videos work fine, amazon anything works fine. Even whatapps (which I sadly had to install due to the lack of other channels with a few groups) functions as expected. The only app I'm using and has problems is Monzo: most of the push notifications don't come through, only sometimes one of them, and you have to - gasp! - manually refresh by pulling the screen down. I'm really curious about your "guarantee".
- CaptSpify 9y agoYou are correct, it does not. It works OK, but I know I have a ton of minor issues with it
- realusername 9y agoNo it does work well, I've used that for a long time and everything worked fine. The issue is more about to actually get an Android ROM to work on your phone than the Gapps.
- rocky1138 9y agoWe need a FOSS phone yesterday. What are the options?
- mmel 9y agoI've seen this idea proposed countless times, but they always seem to either fail to deliver in terms of "FOSS" or turn out to be a kickstarter phantom project that never ships. The latest phone I see people pinning their hopes on is https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/shop/librem-5/
- petecox 9y agoThere was a post today, by one of the KDE developers who has been involved with the postmarketOS crew in getting mainline kernel support, i.e 4.16 and not with whatever fork Android ships on, for an off-the-shelf device (Nexus 5) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16678400 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16678400
- blablabla123 9y agoFairphone 2 does a pretty good job IMHO if you don't mind spending more than 500 €.
- cornholio 9y agoHow can this be legal? Google is effectively using it's dominant market position in mobile apps stores, mapping and search to remove from the market other compatible operating systems. Derived from the same open source core as it's own, but that is irrelevant for this discussion, they are not licensed Android versions, therefore they are compatible competitors.
- cma 9y agoThey already went down this road with Daydream. I think it is even more restrictive.
- khedoros1 9y agoIt seems more like a move to control their own software licenses. If a device isn't licensed to run GApps, then why should it be allowed to use the services? And from another direction, if a manufacturer refuses Google's terms for including the software, then why should that manufacturer get the benefit of being able to include the software, outside of its licensing terms?
- bitmapbrother 9y agoPerhaps you should first start off by answering in what world is it legal for shady OEM's and middlemen to pre-install proprietary Google Play Services on devices that weren't certified by Google.
- cornholio 9y agoI'm not entirely sure you are following my point: it's illegal to install that software precisely because Google has restricted their use on competitor platforms. In the general case, there is nothing wrong with licensing your code as you see fit, however when you have a market dominant position things change dramatically from a regulatory perspective. See the repeated run-ins Microsoft had with competition regulators on both sides of the Atlantic. The point to debate is whether Google has a dominat position in say search. Not if "this world" grants a right to unfettered anticompetitve and monopolist business practices - it does not.
- Markoff 9y agowell as custom ROM user for 7 years all I can say it's I survived without gapps for years in China and I was fine, I will be fine if they won't allow me to sign in as well outside China, after all only two Google apps (with UI) left on my phone are Play store (Yalp store covers that) and Photos (well, there is no real alternative for unlimited backup but Flickr would do it and sharing through some messenger) only thing they will accomplish by locking their ecosystem it's they will have two less users when I will remove gapps from wife's phone as well
- userbinator 9y agoAn Android ID is 64-bit hex string set at first boot and regenerated every time a factory reset is performed. ...and likely quite easy to set to any value you want on the "unoficially open" Mediatek platforms. This is the little-known secret amongst the Chinese Android community --- cheap and featureful devices with no locked bootloaders or other anti-user crap, easy "unbrickable" recovery, and plenty of leaked documentation from the hardware level up. Roughly equivalent to a PC, in that while a lot of them come with preloaded software you might not want, it's also not hard to remove that and customise to your heart's content, and join in the community of others doing the same. I give it at most a month before this block is cracked. Unless there's some insanely crazy DRM-esque things Google is doing, it doesn't seem so difficult to bypass; and even then, the Android hacking community is full of people who love a challenge. See the constant cat-and-mouse game of detecting and hiding root, for example.
- shawndellysse 9y ago> cheap and featureful devices with no locked bootloaders would you mind providing links to such devices, and the roms that go on them? I'd be very interested in this when my Moto Z eventually dies
- dotancohen 9y agoUsers of custom ROMs can register their devices per-user here: https://www.google.com/android/uncertified/ https://www.google.com/android/uncertified/ It is limited to 100 devices per user, not a problem for real end users.