12 ms·

Early owners of Tesla's Model 3 are reporting quality problems

92 points by edward 9y ago

bhauer 9y ago
As a reservation holder, I can answer fairly quickly: Not really. I suspect many early issues will be worked out by the time they finally get around to building mine. And most importantly: there is no other car I want more that I can afford. So I will tolerate some quality issues.
- Cookingboy 9y ago
  But there will be a point where Tesla has to sell to beyond the fanbase and early reservation holder/enthusiasts, they have to sell it to the masses who don't even necessarily know who Elon Musk is. The Model 3 is aimed to be that car, but I have a feeling the general buyers will be a lot less tolerant about issues than early adopters/long time fans.
  - lallysingh 9y ago
    They have a long backlog of enthusiasts to sell to first. That's a long runway to improve quality.
    - Cookingboy 9y ago
      They have been building cars for literally 10 years, and their quality is still way below industry average. The "long backlog" of enthusiasts is a few hundred thousands or so, and that's an absolute small percentage of the total market in this segment. I shouldn't have to point this out since Tesla, after all, is the company that "focus on long term visions". Well I'm kindly suggesting Elon to see further than their immediate backlog.
      - lallysingh 9y ago
        You make a fine point.
  - samfisher83 9y ago
    People buy bmws and Mercedes and those cars all kinds of quality issues especially after the warranty ends.
    - Cookingboy 9y ago
      And Tesla has all kinds of issues when the car is brand new. One can only guess how bad they will get after the warranty ends. And Mercedes and BMW don't go out there and make fun of other people's manufacturing.
    - ChadMoran 9y ago
      Just sold my Audi to get a Tesla. 3.5 years and 42,000 miles and the car was never in the service center for more than a scheduled service. Tesla has been in the SC 4 times in 6 months of ownership.
  - elihu 9y ago
    Presumably, they're still working out problems in their manufacturing process. By the time they're selling to people who don't care about Tesla and just want a car, most of those issues will have been long ago solved. The unknown is where the quality level will be when it levels off after all the obvious inefficiencies and easy-to-fix flaws are addressed. There's a limit to the quality that some organization can achieve at a particular price point.
    - MBCook 9y ago
      That’s what the Model S was for. If they didn’t figure out how to build that without these issues in 6 years why do we think they’ll figure it out for the 3? > There's a limit to the quality that some organization can achieve at a particular price point. Look at a Honda Fit at $16k. Look at how well it’s made. Why can’t the $35k Model 3 do that? The $74k S? The $79 X?
      - elihu 9y ago
        Maybe cars are complicated and it takes more than six years to figure out how to make them well? Maybe Tesla is using a very different process to make the Model 3 than the model S? Maybe we shouldn't compare a car that's been in production (with some changes) for 17 years with a car that's been in production for a couple months? The Model 3 is substantially different than the Model S and has been in production a couple months. Just because Tesla made a similar car before doesn't mean that making cars is a solved problem and there won't be new problems with each new model that have to be overcome.
        MBCook 9y ago
        New models from the big companies like Honda or Toyota don’t have those issues. Not new model years (like most 2019s), not real overhauls (like the 2018 Accord), but turkey new models (like the Honda HR-V). They don’t get an excuse.
- ilovecars2 9y ago
  > I suspect many early issues will be worked out by the time they finally get around to building mine. I had this same attitude with an ICE car I purchased. The pre 2015 models had weak CV joints that appeared to fail after 10/20,000 miles. It sucked for owners of those earlier cars, but the good news is that dealerships will replace the CV joints on the S1 free of charge without question irrespective of milage. I hope that Tesla do the same with the first Model 3 owners because it's just the right thing to do.
- ChadMoran 9y ago
  Yeah? My $100k+ Model X built over a year after the release has been into the service center 4 times to fix 42 issues. One of which they refuse to.
  - drewg123 9y ago
    What do they refuse to fix? Did you try another SC?
    - ChadMoran 9y ago
      They say it's within spec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABAR362zLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABAR362zLw EDIT: I emailed the Seattle SC and they seemed indifferent at best.
      - hyperdimension 9y ago
        I can't quite figure out what's going on in that video. Is it the quick decelerating?
        ChadMoran 9y ago
        Listen to the audio. The whole front dash is shaking during acceleration. The front suspension of the car vibrates pretty badly during moderate to heavy acceleration. They claim that of the 5 suspension settings (Very High, High, Standard, Low and Very Low) that one should keep their car in "Low". In Standard it feels like the car is trying to create rattles. I feel like this is BS because it's an engineering flaw that they haven't figured out how to fix yet. What's happening is premature wear of the front half shafts and CV joints and they CAN fix it they just won't.
Cookingboy 9y ago
Oh really? Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota, the company that literally wrote the book on efficient manufacturing? https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-start/#45f4e2984c74 https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th... Silicon Valley hubris can be downright embarrassing sometimes.
- gameswithgo 9y ago
  >Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. >and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did.
  - Cookingboy 9y ago
    >No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. Last time I checked the big automakers all operate under Toyota's manufacturing philosophy (again, they literally wrote the book on this subject), and more than once Elon has dismissed industry's knowledge and experience in this field. Even without involving Toyota, most of "today's auto factories" operate at a better efficiency and are producing higher quality vehicles in a larger quantity than the Tesla factories. Maybe Elon is right, but it's best to say that kind of things after you are proven right.
    - windexh8er 9y ago
      They aren't "Toyota's manufacturing philosophy". Kaizen is, generally, a result of Deming and total quality management. Deming failed to convince top brass of American auto manufacturing and took his process elsewhere. Toyota and Mazda being the two more notables to adopt early. Read about GM's Hamtramck failures in the 80s for context on the ignorance of US auto brands as they tried to outdo Toyota after starting to lose the quality wars.
ilovecars2 9y ago
I really dislike this trend that Tesla are setting where their customers are little more than beta testers and I fear that the other automakers will follow in their footsteps. When I purchase a car, whether it be Ford, Tesla or VW, panel gap like (https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/842449318749601793 https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/842449318749601793, https://twitter.com/bgluckman/status/965664986298306561?lang=en https://twitter.com/bgluckman/status/965664986298306561?lang...) is just not acceptable.
- Cookingboy 9y ago
  It's interesting that many Tesla fans tout the OTA feature as how Tesla will be giving out free new features/updates to owners. It does happen sometimes (such as "uncorking" the performance on the 100D models), but most of the time it's there to ship/fix features that people already paid for, or should be there in the first place (eg. rain sensing windshield wiper).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- selectodude 9y ago
  "I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today." -Ferdinand Piëch There needs to be a culture from the top down of giving a shit about fit and finish. It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    "It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care." Being CEO of only one company of this size is already a huge job. Being CEO of two just seems like a big ego trip.
Domenic_S 9y ago
Pre-reveal non-owner reservation holder here. I suspect this will be unusual: between constant delays and consistent quality problems, I cancelled my reservation last week. I got a plug-in hybrid instead, for about the same price as the Model 3. I'm a huge believer in the tech and Musk's vision of the future. I learned I am not a believer in Musk-the-executor when it comes to cars.
- RustGirl 9y ago
  I'm very happy with my P90D, but when it was time to get a second electric car, we got a Chevy Bolt, which we're also very happy with. I don't like to order things that aren't shipping yet. There have been no quality issues or bugs with my Bolt. It's never been back to the dealer.
- dnautics 9y ago
  Musk has a long track record of delivering late (think how late falcon 9 heavy is, how late falcon 9 was)
  - bsder 9y ago
    We call difficult things "rocket science" for a reason, you know ... so, not the most apt comparison. However, even if Tesla goes out of business because they can't scale up, I will be grateful to Musk for kicking the incumbents in the ass about electric cars. I suspect we wouldn't have the Leaf or Volt without Tesla (see: GM EV-1, for example).
    - dnautics 9y ago
      no doubt, but also the teslas were all released later than expected, too, IIRC.
    - Domenic_S 9y ago
      Nobody’s saying the work is easy, only that it is consistently late over and over (and he’s the one setting his own deadlines).
  - 9y ago
drewg123 9y ago
I'm a Model X owner. I have quality issues (loose seal & forgotten tow package at delivery, Falcon Wing Door "alignment" issues), but the rest of the car is well worth it. I consider the quality problems to just be the price of driving the car of the future (though I really could do w/o those silly falcon wing doors). I don't think I have ever had a car that I love so much. It is big enough for family and friends, burns no fossil fuel, and leaves almost any other car in the dust off the line. And it keeps getting better and better with software updates. In just the 4 months that I've owned the car, auto pilot has gotten noticeably better and we've gotten tons of new little features.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  The combination of known quality problems and frequent over-the-air updates to software worries me a bit. Software is harder to get right than seals and tow packages, and they are not paying very close attention to the latter. Apple's devices fit together just so, but even with their vast resources their software drifts around in quality.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- jaimex2 9y ago
  I think you nailed it on the head. Even with the build issues they make better overall cars than anyone else.
  - nilkn 9y ago
    I'd agree that Tesla's all-electric powertrains offer a better everyday driving experience than a traditional internal combustion engine. However, we're talking about $70k-$100k+ cars here, and there are some really competitive ICE cars in that price range when you start looking at everything else. For instance, while the entry-level cars from Mercedes don't really impress me that much, their more expensive models do, like a well-optioned E43 or E63 AMG. They really nail luxury in a way that Tesla doesn't. Also, I dare say I prefer their approach to the infotainment system.
amluto 9y ago
The Model S was like this, too. My Model S had a not-quite-fitting front bumper (still problematic), thoroughly dysfunctional rear seatbelts (seemed to affect all of the first several thousand cars including the demo cars, now fixed), some air leaks (gradually getting fixed at service visits), a 12V battery that needed replacement at least once a year (fixed by firmware upgrade -- the original charging algorithm seems to have been written without any consideration for how lead-acid batteries behave), goo dripping out of the sunroof ("fixed" by putting silicone sealant over the goo source), windshield sprayers that are almost impossible to align correctly (design error, presumably still affects current production), and probably several more problems that I've forgotten about.
- da02 9y ago
  Did you ever get tempted of returning it back?
  - toephu2 9y ago
    I don't think you can "return" a car if you are not satisfied with it.
    - tansey 9y ago
      You can if it's defective: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law
      - toephu2 9y ago
        I wasn't talking about if it was defective
  - amluto 9y ago
    No, but my general opinion of Tesla is that they did a fantastic job of making themselves able to sell the Model S. A marque like GM, Ford, or Toyota couldn't have done it -- the price point would be too high. On the other hand, a marque like BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus couldn't either -- the Model S is nowhere near good enough. Just take a look at the interior of the Model S (or X or 3) and compare it to a luxury car. Luxury cars have storage, comfort handles, adequate cup holders, easy-to-use controls, and a certain degree of elegance. Tesla interiors are spartan in a way that appeals to Elon Musk's sensibilities and maybe to some Apple fans but don't actually make for great cars.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jaimex2 9y ago
Same thing happened with early Model S and X production. No one cares, they are still selling those models faster than they can produce. Instant torque, Full charge each morning, Supercharging, Autopilot, OTA updates, FSD ready > Random small issues
Shivetya 9y ago
The issue not raised is that every quality problem Tesla fixes after a car delivered is going to have a cost associated with it and that will raise the cost of the whole run. What becomes very important is if a crash or injury gets linked back to a manufacturing defect. I am just amazed it can get past not only the factory but the delivery center in that condition. I am really wondering the entry level model will ever come out or if by late this year Tesla will discontinue it because of "lack of interest". As in, save money by dropping what would not be a profitable model but pass it off as a customer decision. I still plan to wait a bit before I got BEV, the range hit in winter months is just too dramatic; a reddit poster observed that near freezing freeway drives brought his range to 230 from 310. If anything with the burn rate they have they should retrench and put out the big ticket items first, the semi and sports car.
motohagiography 9y ago
This is a general product lesson. I read someone comment the other day that if you build a flying car, people will still complain about the door handles and trim. Tesla has revolutionized a technology, like an unimaginably odds beating underdog that changes the economics of human civilization. But the business, the function that decides whether they survive to affect the change they've proven is possible is really a question of, are they building a better car? As someone bootstrapping a product, (and of course I think my product is the flying car game changer of my market) during the final painful trade offs before MVP, it's the scores of "details" like this I'm taking on water to resolve before showing it. Personally, I think you can only get way with breaking rules if you've demonstrated you know them first, and quality/experience issues cannot be sins of omission. Where I'm confident I've developed a technology that will change the economics of a market, the moment someone puts their faith in it and lets it into a relationship they have with their stakeholders and it burns a bridge for them, for me to exclaim, "but, but, flying car!" means nothing. These are not details and corner cases, they are the existential aspects of the business. I think where Tesla is acceptable is that they are still in a market with legacies like Land Rover, Jaguar, and used supercars, where people tolerate bizarre diseconomies that would seem laughable to Toyota, Mercedes, and even KIA owners. However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company. The lesson I take from articles like this is that what I think of as details as a technologist are in fact the differentiators in a business.
- MBCook 9y ago
  > However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company. This kind of stuff made sense when they were making the original Roadster and hand assembled them (?). But the model S is now 6 years old and this is still happening. Fine, it was their first ‘real’ car. The Roadster was very low volume. But the X has the same problem. And now the 3. At what point does Tesla start acting like a ‘real’ company and decide these kinds of defects aren’t acceptable? The stuff I hear about Tesla’s process for this stuff sounds like the descriptions of GM factories in The Machine That Changed The World. Just make the cars, fix the worst of it at the end of the line, let service centers do more after delivery to the customer.
SloopJon 9y ago
My concern is that constrained production and quality issues could lead to long repair times. There was a Motley Fool story last year about someone whose Model S was in the shop for over seven months: https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-tesla-model-s-has-been-an-utter-night.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-tesla... Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821109
michaelt 9y ago
That's consistent with the review by Sandy Munro [1] who reported really poor fit and finish quality - rattling doors, poorly fitted gaps around the trunk, and so on. Computer gamers know the perils of pre-ordering - you've got no recourse if the product has reliability, quality or completeness problems. I hope Tesla enthusiasts who pre-ordered realised the gamble they were taking. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVfpotxHUzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVfpotxHUzA
ChadMoran 9y ago
I have taken in my Model X for a front end vibration issue that they refuse to fix 4 times. This is a June 2017 build, which is rather recent. Tesla is deferring quality issues to their service centers instead of fixing them at the factory. It's a familiar situation. I want better quality but if you want the tech and convenience a Tesla provides you really have no other option. There is a wide gap between the lower end electric drive cars (Leaf, Bolt) vs Tesla. I love my X I just wish the quality matched the price.
influx 9y ago
This teardown previously on HN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM Convinced me that Tesla has some major issues in manufacturing. To get into a Model 3 with most of the features people want is closer to 45K, at which point you could get a pretty damn good car from another manufacturer. I'm cheering for Tesla, but come on, fit and finish should be on par with the best, not something I should have to overlook.
salimmadjd 9y ago
About a year ago, Tesla had a little demo setup in downtown Burlingame (here in SV area). There was a Model X and a Model S. I love cars, so I went to take a peek, but when I looked at the Model X, I instantly saw so many manufacturing flaws. I could not believe how badly a $100K (or about) was assembled. I thought to myself most cars in $20k range are not that poorly manufactured. One side of the hood had such a larger gap compared to the other side. The lines of the vehicle from A pillar to back did not align. While I was there, a couple arrived with their BWM i3. We started talking and I pointed out the Tesla flaws and decided to examine their i3. It was like one care was made in a first-world and the other one assembled in a third-world country. The gaps were so tight compared to the Model X with near perfect symmetry. You can see the difference between a company with a history of auto making and one stumbling to catch up. These cars should all be labeled "Beta". That's the only honest thing, Musk can and should do.
- ChuckMcM 9y ago
  I don't disagree with your assessment, but I point out that it makes the implicit assumption that Tesla customers care about fit and finish. Tesla is selling every car they make. Not a single one lands in a parking lot at a dealer while picky buyers survey it and compare it to something else. At the moment, the Tesla market is completely people who will buy it even if it has old In-n-Out wrappers in the back seat. What that means is that for Tesla, today, putting any money into fit and finish, rather than in speed of production, loses them money. Once they have a pipeline that can make more cars than they have pre-orders for, and start putting them out on lots for more discerning eyes, then the investment in fit and finish will give a marginal boost in sales.
  - pascalxus 9y ago
    In that case, I'll wait a few years, until the fit and finish catches up.
    - zeep 9y ago
      Tesla is already starting to see competitors... if they don't get better quality control, it will probably hurt them soon enough
mastazi 9y ago
BREAKING NEWS: Early product may not be as polished as later iterations of the same product.
rizwank 9y ago
Owner of a M3. My first Tesla. I have number 40xx. I adore the damn thing. Seeing software updates makes me happy. I compare it to my last favorite car, my Volt which claimed to support updates; but never patched it’s awful UI. It is a bit raw. I had to leave the car at the service center due to some door handle issues. I received a loaner model S, and it’s was fixed impeccably. The X had a trunk issue for a ton of cars needing a rain proof cover on the trunk- and every owner got it. There are quality issues. So far I’ve seen everything fixed at Tesla’s expense, with similar reports on TMC. It is a different paradigm though - far more a reliable software platform (where they fix things when they are broke) than the typical “here is your car” model. There is a bit of fandom in which earlier adopters are willing to put up with issues. As I said, I love the car, and as long as they keep patching issues (HW & SW) that come up, I’ll accept some issues. Don’t want the issues? Wait a half year. But recall that they have 18 months of backlog. Most would consider that a commercial success.
LeonM 9y ago
Today I saw a X P100DL on the parking lot at work, I immediately noticed that both (!) the tail lights had moisture in them. This is a brand new 160.000 euro* car, this should in no way be acceptable. If that was my car, I'd would have returned it to dealership. * In the Netherlands, the base price of a 'ludicrous' edition is 159.430,- euro.
Libturd 9y ago
enter musktards
woodandsteel 9y ago
Ok, lots of quality problems, but let's think about things in terms of their larger significance. Have the Tesla cars, in spite of their quality problems, revolutionized the auto industry, pushing almost every major manufacturer to start BEV programs and thereby being a major force in dealing with global warming and hence the future of the human race? Yes. Will Tesla, in the next year or two, greatly improve the quality of the Model 3? Probably. Will Tesla autos continue to sell well? Probably. So should you feel basically positive about Tesla? I say yes. Unless, of course, you are in the fossil fuels or ICE business.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  Looking at this from another angle, it seems to me that Musk had a choice between going slowly so he could produce automobiles with few quality problems, and charging ahead full speed to produce a large number of revolutionary autos. I think he picked the smart option.
ProfessorLayton 9y ago
I really hope Tesla manages to pull it together because competition is good for everyone, but the quality bar they have to meet has gotten pretty high. My Civic is still holding up exceptionally well in regards to materials and fit and finish at 12 years old. The only rattles come from the fact that I installed 3rd party speakers the car was not meant to handle. I expect Tesla to be at least as well built as an econobox from the mid 2000s
nabla9 9y ago
This is to be expected. Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in reliability. So far people who buy Tesla are willing to tolerate low quality if they get the features they want. Camaro has low reliability as well. The real question is if this strategy works when manufacturing volume grows.
- davidgould 9y ago
  > Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in reliability. This is simply false. I have the March 2018 Car Issue of Consumer Reports in my hand. They segmented Tesla P85D into a group: "Cars: Ultra-Luxury" and put it at the top in the overall rating. In specifically the Predicted Reliablity rating the P85D was rated "Above Average". The other car with "Above Average" reliablity in that group was the BMW 750i xDrive. The remaining cars were: Genesis G90, MB S550, Audi A8, Jaguar XJL. To avoid fouling CU's copyright I will give the reliability ratings out of order to the list of cars. The rating of the group excluding the BMW and Tesla: Average, Less Than Average, Average, Average. No car in the group rated higher for reliability than the Tesla. Hardly "close to the bottom". For the curious Consumer Reports reliability ratings are based on an annual detailed survey of their membership. They have had a consistent methodology for years and have defended in in court (manufacturers don't like to be called "Worse than Average") successfully repeatedly. I don't take them as gospel on everything, but the car reliability data seems solid.
  - nabla9 9y ago
    Look at the December 2017 issue of consumer reports brand reliability report [1]. As I said, Model 3 is different. Musk said that Model 3 is supposed to be Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes-Benz C-Class type car with large production volume. --- [1]: Car Brands Reliability: How They Stack Up Ranking the brands and showing their most and least reliable cars https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/car-brands-reliability-how-they-stack-up/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...
    - davidgould 9y ago
mh8h 9y ago
The question is, can the incumbent luxury car manufacturers figure out the technology and supply chain of electric cars and batteries before Tesla can figure out how to manufacture high quality cars?
Steko 9y ago
Oh look, the Muskonauts have flagged this story, which should be in the top 3 based on pts/time to the bottom of the 2nd page. Yes there are other factors that can drop a post's rank, but not by that much. I thought HN had a vouch system to counter flag abuse, was it done away with?

92 points by edward 9y ago

As a reservation holder, I can answer fairly quickly: Not really. I suspect many early issues will be worked out by the time they finally get around to building mine. And most importantly: there is no other car I want more that I can afford. So I will tolerate some quality issues.

Cookingboy 9y ago
But there will be a point where Tesla has to sell to beyond the fanbase and early reservation holder/enthusiasts, they have to sell it to the masses who don't even necessarily know who Elon Musk is. The Model 3 is aimed to be that car, but I have a feeling the general buyers will be a lot less tolerant about issues than early adopters/long time fans.
- lallysingh 9y ago
  They have a long backlog of enthusiasts to sell to first. That's a long runway to improve quality.
  - Cookingboy 9y ago
    They have been building cars for literally 10 years, and their quality is still way below industry average. The "long backlog" of enthusiasts is a few hundred thousands or so, and that's an absolute small percentage of the total market in this segment. I shouldn't have to point this out since Tesla, after all, is the company that "focus on long term visions". Well I'm kindly suggesting Elon to see further than their immediate backlog.
    - lallysingh 9y ago
      You make a fine point.
- samfisher83 9y ago
  People buy bmws and Mercedes and those cars all kinds of quality issues especially after the warranty ends.
  - Cookingboy 9y ago
    And Tesla has all kinds of issues when the car is brand new. One can only guess how bad they will get after the warranty ends. And Mercedes and BMW don't go out there and make fun of other people's manufacturing.
  - ChadMoran 9y ago
    Just sold my Audi to get a Tesla. 3.5 years and 42,000 miles and the car was never in the service center for more than a scheduled service. Tesla has been in the SC 4 times in 6 months of ownership.
- elihu 9y ago
  Presumably, they're still working out problems in their manufacturing process. By the time they're selling to people who don't care about Tesla and just want a car, most of those issues will have been long ago solved. The unknown is where the quality level will be when it levels off after all the obvious inefficiencies and easy-to-fix flaws are addressed. There's a limit to the quality that some organization can achieve at a particular price point.
  - MBCook 9y ago
    That’s what the Model S was for. If they didn’t figure out how to build that without these issues in 6 years why do we think they’ll figure it out for the 3? > There's a limit to the quality that some organization can achieve at a particular price point. Look at a Honda Fit at $16k. Look at how well it’s made. Why can’t the $35k Model 3 do that? The $74k S? The $79 X?
    - elihu 9y ago
      Maybe cars are complicated and it takes more than six years to figure out how to make them well? Maybe Tesla is using a very different process to make the Model 3 than the model S? Maybe we shouldn't compare a car that's been in production (with some changes) for 17 years with a car that's been in production for a couple months? The Model 3 is substantially different than the Model S and has been in production a couple months. Just because Tesla made a similar car before doesn't mean that making cars is a solved problem and there won't be new problems with each new model that have to be overcome.
      - MBCook 9y ago
        New models from the big companies like Honda or Toyota don’t have those issues. Not new model years (like most 2019s), not real overhauls (like the 2018 Accord), but turkey new models (like the Honda HR-V). They don’t get an excuse.
ilovecars2 9y ago
> I suspect many early issues will be worked out by the time they finally get around to building mine. I had this same attitude with an ICE car I purchased. The pre 2015 models had weak CV joints that appeared to fail after 10/20,000 miles. It sucked for owners of those earlier cars, but the good news is that dealerships will replace the CV joints on the S1 free of charge without question irrespective of milage. I hope that Tesla do the same with the first Model 3 owners because it's just the right thing to do.
ChadMoran 9y ago
Yeah? My $100k+ Model X built over a year after the release has been into the service center 4 times to fix 42 issues. One of which they refuse to.
- drewg123 9y ago
  What do they refuse to fix? Did you try another SC?
  - ChadMoran 9y ago
    They say it's within spec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABAR362zLw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABAR362zLw EDIT: I emailed the Seattle SC and they seemed indifferent at best.
    - hyperdimension 9y ago
      I can't quite figure out what's going on in that video. Is it the quick decelerating?
      - ChadMoran 9y ago
        Listen to the audio. The whole front dash is shaking during acceleration. The front suspension of the car vibrates pretty badly during moderate to heavy acceleration. They claim that of the 5 suspension settings (Very High, High, Standard, Low and Very Low) that one should keep their car in "Low". In Standard it feels like the car is trying to create rattles. I feel like this is BS because it's an engineering flaw that they haven't figured out how to fix yet. What's happening is premature wear of the front half shafts and CV joints and they CAN fix it they just won't.

Cookingboy 9y ago

Oh really? Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota, the company that literally wrote the book on efficient manufacturing? https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-start/#45f4e2984c74 https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th... Silicon Valley hubris can be downright embarrassing sometimes.

gameswithgo 9y ago
>Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. >and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did.
- Cookingboy 9y ago
  >No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. Last time I checked the big automakers all operate under Toyota's manufacturing philosophy (again, they literally wrote the book on this subject), and more than once Elon has dismissed industry's knowledge and experience in this field. Even without involving Toyota, most of "today's auto factories" operate at a better efficiency and are producing higher quality vehicles in a larger quantity than the Tesla factories. Maybe Elon is right, but it's best to say that kind of things after you are proven right.
  - windexh8er 9y ago
    They aren't "Toyota's manufacturing philosophy". Kaizen is, generally, a result of Deming and total quality management. Deming failed to convince top brass of American auto manufacturing and took his process elsewhere. Toyota and Mazda being the two more notables to adopt early. Read about GM's Hamtramck failures in the 80s for context on the ignorance of US auto brands as they tried to outdo Toyota after starting to lose the quality wars.

ilovecars2 9y ago

I really dislike this trend that Tesla are setting where their customers are little more than beta testers and I fear that the other automakers will follow in their footsteps. When I purchase a car, whether it be Ford, Tesla or VW, panel gap like (https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/842449318749601793 https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/842449318749601793, https://twitter.com/bgluckman/status/965664986298306561?lang=en https://twitter.com/bgluckman/status/965664986298306561?lang...) is just not acceptable.

Cookingboy 9y ago
It's interesting that many Tesla fans tout the OTA feature as how Tesla will be giving out free new features/updates to owners. It does happen sometimes (such as "uncorking" the performance on the 100D models), but most of the time it's there to ship/fix features that people already paid for, or should be there in the first place (eg. rain sensing windshield wiper).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
selectodude 9y ago
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people, manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today." -Ferdinand Piëch There needs to be a culture from the top down of giving a shit about fit and finish. It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  "It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care." Being CEO of only one company of this size is already a huge job. Being CEO of two just seems like a big ego trip.

Domenic_S 9y ago

Pre-reveal non-owner reservation holder here. I suspect this will be unusual: between constant delays and consistent quality problems, I cancelled my reservation last week. I got a plug-in hybrid instead, for about the same price as the Model 3. I'm a huge believer in the tech and Musk's vision of the future. I learned I am not a believer in Musk-the-executor when it comes to cars.

RustGirl 9y ago
I'm very happy with my P90D, but when it was time to get a second electric car, we got a Chevy Bolt, which we're also very happy with. I don't like to order things that aren't shipping yet. There have been no quality issues or bugs with my Bolt. It's never been back to the dealer.
dnautics 9y ago
Musk has a long track record of delivering late (think how late falcon 9 heavy is, how late falcon 9 was)
- bsder 9y ago
  We call difficult things "rocket science" for a reason, you know ... so, not the most apt comparison. However, even if Tesla goes out of business because they can't scale up, I will be grateful to Musk for kicking the incumbents in the ass about electric cars. I suspect we wouldn't have the Leaf or Volt without Tesla (see: GM EV-1, for example).
  - dnautics 9y ago
    no doubt, but also the teslas were all released later than expected, too, IIRC.
  - Domenic_S 9y ago
    Nobody’s saying the work is easy, only that it is consistently late over and over (and he’s the one setting his own deadlines).
- 9y ago

drewg123 9y ago

I'm a Model X owner. I have quality issues (loose seal & forgotten tow package at delivery, Falcon Wing Door "alignment" issues), but the rest of the car is well worth it. I consider the quality problems to just be the price of driving the car of the future (though I really could do w/o those silly falcon wing doors). I don't think I have ever had a car that I love so much. It is big enough for family and friends, burns no fossil fuel, and leaves almost any other car in the dust off the line. And it keeps getting better and better with software updates. In just the 4 months that I've owned the car, auto pilot has gotten noticeably better and we've gotten tons of new little features.

robotresearcher 9y ago
The combination of known quality problems and frequent over-the-air updates to software worries me a bit. Software is harder to get right than seals and tow packages, and they are not paying very close attention to the latter. Apple's devices fit together just so, but even with their vast resources their software drifts around in quality.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
jaimex2 9y ago
I think you nailed it on the head. Even with the build issues they make better overall cars than anyone else.
- nilkn 9y ago
  I'd agree that Tesla's all-electric powertrains offer a better everyday driving experience than a traditional internal combustion engine. However, we're talking about $70k-$100k+ cars here, and there are some really competitive ICE cars in that price range when you start looking at everything else. For instance, while the entry-level cars from Mercedes don't really impress me that much, their more expensive models do, like a well-optioned E43 or E63 AMG. They really nail luxury in a way that Tesla doesn't. Also, I dare say I prefer their approach to the infotainment system.

amluto 9y ago

The Model S was like this, too. My Model S had a not-quite-fitting front bumper (still problematic), thoroughly dysfunctional rear seatbelts (seemed to affect all of the first several thousand cars including the demo cars, now fixed), some air leaks (gradually getting fixed at service visits), a 12V battery that needed replacement at least once a year (fixed by firmware upgrade -- the original charging algorithm seems to have been written without any consideration for how lead-acid batteries behave), goo dripping out of the sunroof ("fixed" by putting silicone sealant over the goo source), windshield sprayers that are almost impossible to align correctly (design error, presumably still affects current production), and probably several more problems that I've forgotten about.

da02 9y ago
Did you ever get tempted of returning it back?
- toephu2 9y ago
  I don't think you can "return" a car if you are not satisfied with it.
  - tansey 9y ago
    You can if it's defective: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law
    - toephu2 9y ago
      I wasn't talking about if it was defective
- amluto 9y ago
  No, but my general opinion of Tesla is that they did a fantastic job of making themselves able to sell the Model S. A marque like GM, Ford, or Toyota couldn't have done it -- the price point would be too high. On the other hand, a marque like BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus couldn't either -- the Model S is nowhere near good enough. Just take a look at the interior of the Model S (or X or 3) and compare it to a luxury car. Luxury cars have storage, comfort handles, adequate cup holders, easy-to-use controls, and a certain degree of elegance. Tesla interiors are spartan in a way that appeals to Elon Musk's sensibilities and maybe to some Apple fans but don't actually make for great cars.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jaimex2 9y ago

Same thing happened with early Model S and X production. No one cares, they are still selling those models faster than they can produce. Instant torque, Full charge each morning, Supercharging, Autopilot, OTA updates, FSD ready > Random small issues

Shivetya 9y ago

The issue not raised is that every quality problem Tesla fixes after a car delivered is going to have a cost associated with it and that will raise the cost of the whole run. What becomes very important is if a crash or injury gets linked back to a manufacturing defect. I am just amazed it can get past not only the factory but the delivery center in that condition. I am really wondering the entry level model will ever come out or if by late this year Tesla will discontinue it because of "lack of interest". As in, save money by dropping what would not be a profitable model but pass it off as a customer decision. I still plan to wait a bit before I got BEV, the range hit in winter months is just too dramatic; a reddit poster observed that near freezing freeway drives brought his range to 230 from 310. If anything with the burn rate they have they should retrench and put out the big ticket items first, the semi and sports car.

motohagiography 9y ago

This is a general product lesson. I read someone comment the other day that if you build a flying car, people will still complain about the door handles and trim. Tesla has revolutionized a technology, like an unimaginably odds beating underdog that changes the economics of human civilization. But the business, the function that decides whether they survive to affect the change they've proven is possible is really a question of, are they building a better car? As someone bootstrapping a product, (and of course I think my product is the flying car game changer of my market) during the final painful trade offs before MVP, it's the scores of "details" like this I'm taking on water to resolve before showing it. Personally, I think you can only get way with breaking rules if you've demonstrated you know them first, and quality/experience issues cannot be sins of omission. Where I'm confident I've developed a technology that will change the economics of a market, the moment someone puts their faith in it and lets it into a relationship they have with their stakeholders and it burns a bridge for them, for me to exclaim, "but, but, flying car!" means nothing. These are not details and corner cases, they are the existential aspects of the business. I think where Tesla is acceptable is that they are still in a market with legacies like Land Rover, Jaguar, and used supercars, where people tolerate bizarre diseconomies that would seem laughable to Toyota, Mercedes, and even KIA owners. However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company. The lesson I take from articles like this is that what I think of as details as a technologist are in fact the differentiators in a business.

MBCook 9y ago
> However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company. This kind of stuff made sense when they were making the original Roadster and hand assembled them (?). But the model S is now 6 years old and this is still happening. Fine, it was their first ‘real’ car. The Roadster was very low volume. But the X has the same problem. And now the 3. At what point does Tesla start acting like a ‘real’ company and decide these kinds of defects aren’t acceptable? The stuff I hear about Tesla’s process for this stuff sounds like the descriptions of GM factories in The Machine That Changed The World. Just make the cars, fix the worst of it at the end of the line, let service centers do more after delivery to the customer.

SloopJon 9y ago

My concern is that constrained production and quality issues could lead to long repair times. There was a Motley Fool story last year about someone whose Model S was in the shop for over seven months: https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-tesla-model-s-has-been-an-utter-night.aspx https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-tesla... Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821109 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821109

michaelt 9y ago

That's consistent with the review by Sandy Munro [1] who reported really poor fit and finish quality - rattling doors, poorly fitted gaps around the trunk, and so on. Computer gamers know the perils of pre-ordering - you've got no recourse if the product has reliability, quality or completeness problems. I hope Tesla enthusiasts who pre-ordered realised the gamble they were taking. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVfpotxHUzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVfpotxHUzA

ChadMoran 9y ago

I have taken in my Model X for a front end vibration issue that they refuse to fix 4 times. This is a June 2017 build, which is rather recent. Tesla is deferring quality issues to their service centers instead of fixing them at the factory. It's a familiar situation. I want better quality but if you want the tech and convenience a Tesla provides you really have no other option. There is a wide gap between the lower end electric drive cars (Leaf, Bolt) vs Tesla. I love my X I just wish the quality matched the price.

influx 9y ago

This teardown previously on HN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM Convinced me that Tesla has some major issues in manufacturing. To get into a Model 3 with most of the features people want is closer to 45K, at which point you could get a pretty damn good car from another manufacturer. I'm cheering for Tesla, but come on, fit and finish should be on par with the best, not something I should have to overlook.

salimmadjd 9y ago

About a year ago, Tesla had a little demo setup in downtown Burlingame (here in SV area). There was a Model X and a Model S. I love cars, so I went to take a peek, but when I looked at the Model X, I instantly saw so many manufacturing flaws. I could not believe how badly a $100K (or about) was assembled. I thought to myself most cars in $20k range are not that poorly manufactured. One side of the hood had such a larger gap compared to the other side. The lines of the vehicle from A pillar to back did not align. While I was there, a couple arrived with their BWM i3. We started talking and I pointed out the Tesla flaws and decided to examine their i3. It was like one care was made in a first-world and the other one assembled in a third-world country. The gaps were so tight compared to the Model X with near perfect symmetry. You can see the difference between a company with a history of auto making and one stumbling to catch up. These cars should all be labeled "Beta". That's the only honest thing, Musk can and should do.

ChuckMcM 9y ago
I don't disagree with your assessment, but I point out that it makes the implicit assumption that Tesla customers care about fit and finish. Tesla is selling every car they make. Not a single one lands in a parking lot at a dealer while picky buyers survey it and compare it to something else. At the moment, the Tesla market is completely people who will buy it even if it has old In-n-Out wrappers in the back seat. What that means is that for Tesla, today, putting any money into fit and finish, rather than in speed of production, loses them money. Once they have a pipeline that can make more cars than they have pre-orders for, and start putting them out on lots for more discerning eyes, then the investment in fit and finish will give a marginal boost in sales.
- pascalxus 9y ago
  In that case, I'll wait a few years, until the fit and finish catches up.
  - zeep 9y ago
    Tesla is already starting to see competitors... if they don't get better quality control, it will probably hurt them soon enough

mastazi 9y ago

BREAKING NEWS: Early product may not be as polished as later iterations of the same product.

rizwank 9y ago

Owner of a M3. My first Tesla. I have number 40xx. I adore the damn thing. Seeing software updates makes me happy. I compare it to my last favorite car, my Volt which claimed to support updates; but never patched it’s awful UI. It is a bit raw. I had to leave the car at the service center due to some door handle issues. I received a loaner model S, and it’s was fixed impeccably. The X had a trunk issue for a ton of cars needing a rain proof cover on the trunk- and every owner got it. There are quality issues. So far I’ve seen everything fixed at Tesla’s expense, with similar reports on TMC. It is a different paradigm though - far more a reliable software platform (where they fix things when they are broke) than the typical “here is your car” model. There is a bit of fandom in which earlier adopters are willing to put up with issues. As I said, I love the car, and as long as they keep patching issues (HW & SW) that come up, I’ll accept some issues. Don’t want the issues? Wait a half year. But recall that they have 18 months of backlog. Most would consider that a commercial success.

LeonM 9y ago

Today I saw a X P100DL on the parking lot at work, I immediately noticed that both (!) the tail lights had moisture in them. This is a brand new 160.000 euro* car, this should in no way be acceptable. If that was my car, I'd would have returned it to dealership. * In the Netherlands, the base price of a 'ludicrous' edition is 159.430,- euro.

Libturd 9y ago

enter musktards

woodandsteel 9y ago

Ok, lots of quality problems, but let's think about things in terms of their larger significance. Have the Tesla cars, in spite of their quality problems, revolutionized the auto industry, pushing almost every major manufacturer to start BEV programs and thereby being a major force in dealing with global warming and hence the future of the human race? Yes. Will Tesla, in the next year or two, greatly improve the quality of the Model 3? Probably. Will Tesla autos continue to sell well? Probably. So should you feel basically positive about Tesla? I say yes. Unless, of course, you are in the fossil fuels or ICE business.

woodandsteel 9y ago
Looking at this from another angle, it seems to me that Musk had a choice between going slowly so he could produce automobiles with few quality problems, and charging ahead full speed to produce a large number of revolutionary autos. I think he picked the smart option.

ProfessorLayton 9y ago

I really hope Tesla manages to pull it together because competition is good for everyone, but the quality bar they have to meet has gotten pretty high. My Civic is still holding up exceptionally well in regards to materials and fit and finish at 12 years old. The only rattles come from the fact that I installed 3rd party speakers the car was not meant to handle. I expect Tesla to be at least as well built as an econobox from the mid 2000s

nabla9 9y ago

This is to be expected. Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in reliability. So far people who buy Tesla are willing to tolerate low quality if they get the features they want. Camaro has low reliability as well. The real question is if this strategy works when manufacturing volume grows.

davidgould 9y ago
> Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in reliability. This is simply false. I have the March 2018 Car Issue of Consumer Reports in my hand. They segmented Tesla P85D into a group: "Cars: Ultra-Luxury" and put it at the top in the overall rating. In specifically the Predicted Reliablity rating the P85D was rated "Above Average". The other car with "Above Average" reliablity in that group was the BMW 750i xDrive. The remaining cars were: Genesis G90, MB S550, Audi A8, Jaguar XJL. To avoid fouling CU's copyright I will give the reliability ratings out of order to the list of cars. The rating of the group excluding the BMW and Tesla: Average, Less Than Average, Average, Average. No car in the group rated higher for reliability than the Tesla. Hardly "close to the bottom". For the curious Consumer Reports reliability ratings are based on an annual detailed survey of their membership. They have had a consistent methodology for years and have defended in in court (manufacturers don't like to be called "Worse than Average") successfully repeatedly. I don't take them as gospel on everything, but the car reliability data seems solid.
- nabla9 9y ago
  Look at the December 2017 issue of consumer reports brand reliability report [1]. As I said, Model 3 is different. Musk said that Model 3 is supposed to be Audi A4, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes-Benz C-Class type car with large production volume. --- [1]: Car Brands Reliability: How They Stack Up Ranking the brands and showing their most and least reliable cars https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/car-brands-reliability-how-they-stack-up/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf...
  - davidgould 9y ago

mh8h 9y ago

The question is, can the incumbent luxury car manufacturers figure out the technology and supply chain of electric cars and batteries before Tesla can figure out how to manufacture high quality cars?

Steko 9y ago

Oh look, the Muskonauts have flagged this story, which should be in the top 3 based on pts/time to the bottom of the 2nd page. Yes there are other factors that can drop a post's rank, but not by that much. I thought HN had a vouch system to counter flag abuse, was it done away with?