7 ms·

I really dont like the Trump administration for various reasons, but one thing they have done right is showing firm hand against China. Especially when it comes

I really dont like the Trump administration for various reasons, but one thing they have done right is showing firm hand against China. Especially when it comes to the artificial islands in South China sea and also the attempts to buy western technology by buying companies and institutions in US. I hope more countries wake up to what China is trying to do. Artificial island, Rohingya-cleansing, Sri Lanka airport etc. Its just the beginning, we need to be prepared.

3stop 9y ago
China is not Myanmar... Is there a Rohingya conspiracy I'm not aware of? Artificial islands in the south China sea... Is that not just a really crappy-low-tech version of an aircraft carrier? When you say we need to be prepared. For what? Do you think China will attack? Or it will just pursue economic growth like every other country? In exactly the way we always wanted them to... Remember in the past China was closed... We (the West) opened that can of worms... Now we decide we don't like worms...
- gressquel 9y ago
  1. China with its vote in UN security counsuel was a major suppord for Burmese government to do what what they did without fear of being punished. Google "China Rohingya" theres plenty of articles. 2. Are you literally justifying building island in other countrys sovereign territory? There is absolutely no excuse for this. How would Beijing like it if France or US moved their aircraft carrier 1 km outside of Shanghai? 3. China may not be capable of attakcing through convential war, but they are doing more nastyness without it. Supporting the Sri lankan governments assault on the tamils literally killing 60 000 people in the last weeks of the war in 2009. Imprisoning nobel pieze price winner till his death? Punishing Norway economically for awarding nobel peize price? Suppressing the muslim population in their country (Uyighur?) Stealing technologies and preventing any outside countries from enforcing IP-theft lawsuits. The list is too long to mention.
  - empath75 9y ago
    What do you propose to do about it that wouldn’t end in even worse outcomes?
    - gressquel 9y ago
      My proposal is the initial proposal the western countries had for China. Let them into WTO and give the all the opportunities western countries have. And China certainly made good use of it. But the proposal also expected China to adapt to democracy and values like free trade. But instead they have become corrupt with power and gone the wrong direction, even electing a "dictator". Now its time to take away the giveaways: - If China is going to practically make life hard for western companies to operate in China, then same will happen to Chinese companies. Huawei is already experiencing this. - If you are going to steal intelectual property and mass-produce items then this will have implication on trade. - WTO sanctions needs to be implemented until China starts to respect the rules that every other country follows.
      - krapp 9y ago
        >WTO sanctions needs to be implemented until China starts to respect the rules that every other country follows Devil's advocate: those rules exist to protect the interests of Western countries, not China, and China is a nascent superpower with nuclear weapons, so why should China respect them?
        lettergram 9y ago
        Those rules can be applied to other countries as well as China. It's not just to protect Western countries - it's just those Western countries are being the most impacted. Also China doesn't want civil unrest.. if we imposed harsh sanctions I can guarantee itll crollapse their economy, then their country. We just need to "tap the breaks" so to speak.
        gressquel 9y ago
        China as a superpower will cease to exist if its economy crashes. Its economy is very dependent on EU and US. So yes, they will have to respect the rules.
- ilamont 9y ago
  The panel found that China’s claims of historic rights within the nine-dash line, which Beijing uses to demarcate its claims in the South China Sea, were without legal foundation. The panel also concluded that Beijing’s activities within the Philippines’ two-hundred-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ), such as illegal fishing and environmentally ruinous artificial island construction, infringed on Manila’s sovereign rights. https://www.cfr.org/councilofcouncils/global_memos/p38227 https://www.cfr.org/councilofcouncils/global_memos/p38227
- veidr 9y ago
  China isn’t Myanmar but it’s completely obvious that the OP meant Uighur. That means you’re a shill / sock puppet / DQ
  - gressquel 9y ago
    I meant Myanmar actually. But you are right Uighur is another black mark on chinese politics. Btw the chinese government is a support to burmese actions towards the Rohingya population, thats what I meant with my initial post. I am not going to repeat everything but there are plently of articles.
    - veidr 9y ago
      OK, I stand corrected.
nl 9y ago
Umm.. I'm Australian, so I follow the South China Sea closely. The US seems to have completely abandoned doing anything in the South China Sea. I mean - Trump talks a lot about China, but has done nothing to slow the Chinese build up there. Here's a recent article about how the Chinese have finished their fortifications on one of their artificial islands (which are pretty impressive!): http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/photos-reveal-chinas-south-china-sea-island-fortresses-are-complete/news-story/776e1a695fb41ccb7e47a436594c1530 http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/photos-reveal-c...
- adventured 9y ago
  That's because there isn't anything that a US administration can do to slow the build up there. It's the same reason the Obama Administration didn't do anything of consequence to stop China when they began building the artificial islands. It would require war, a near-war, or very large scale sanctions. A group of dozens of major economies would have to impose trade consequences. And even that might not deter China, given how badly they appear to want to annex that territory.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > there isn't anything that a US administration can do to slow the build up there What bollocks. Freedom of navigation operations are a light-touch manoeuvre that still pisses off Beijing [1]. Economically embracing China’s neighbours (as TPP tried to do) and bolstering the militaries of Taiwan, the Philippines and other threatened democracies is another reasonable step. [1] https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/south-china-sea-us-navy-conducts-freedom-of-navigation-operation/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/south-china-sea-us-navy-cond...
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  I don’t really see what china thinks it is accomplishing there. The logistics are just too long to keep those islands supplied and functioning if any hostilities break out. They aren’t exactly unsinkable aircraft carriers either.
- georgeecollins 9y ago
godelmachine 9y ago
>> "I hope more countries wake up to what China is trying to do. Artificial island, Rohingya-cleansing, Sri Lanka airport etc. Its just the beginning, we need to be prepared." Would you please be concise and more elaborative about what you mean?
- gressquel 9y ago
  I hope you can forgive me but I feel its very demanding to write this over and over again. I think I have written about the Sri lankan airport thing before in detail. The reason I leave the keywords in my post is so people can do a google search and find the necessary information.
  - thieving_magpie 9y ago
    The effect, at least for me, is a wild goose chase trying to determine how the context of your post fits things like "Rohingya-cleansing". I can kinda see what you're saying based on some of the articles that come up but if you think this is helpful I'd have to disagree.
    - godelmachine 9y ago
      I agree with you. I asked him this when I noticed - "Rohingya-cleansing"
  - wmeredith 9y ago
    The brilliant thing about the web is you can just link to other writing, rather than just spread unsubstantiated FUD.
fwdpropaganda 9y ago
Can you give us specifics? What has the Trump administration actually done with China? In case you're not aware, China isn't even in the top 10 exporters of steel into the USA[0], so please don't say steel tariffs. [0] https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/imports-us.pdf https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/imports-us.pdf
- gressquel 9y ago
  The most recent is docking of Aircraft carrier in Vietnam for the first time since the cold war. There is also a closer relationship with Taiwan and new bills being made to apporve sale of weapons. The american ships and aircrafts have also ignored the territory of the artificial islands sending signal to all the commerical boats that the water is for everybody to use.
  - latch 9y ago
    Neither of your last two points are Trump things. Selling arms to Taiwan isn't new. There's the Taiwan Relations Act Affirmation and Naval Vessel Transfer Act of 2014 and an arms deal signed under Obama in 2015 for $1.83 billion (1). Sailing within the 12 nautical miles of the man-made Chinese islands also happened under Obama (2). (1) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taiwan-arms/obama-administration-authorizes-1-83-billion-arms-sale-to-taiwan-idUSKBN0TZ2C520151216 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taiwan-arms/obama-adm... (2) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-warship-sails-within-12-miles-of-chinese-built-island-in-south-china-sea/2015/10/26/a178497b-7033-4e4c-a328-0f3c980cf193_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-warship-sails-within...
- phkahler 9y ago
  How about aluminum: https://www.wsj.com/article_email/chinese-billionaire-linked-to-giant-aluminum-stockpile-in-mexican-desert-1473356054-lMyQjAxMTA2NjA2ODUwOTg4Wj https://www.wsj.com/article_email/chinese-billionaire-linked...
  - fwdpropaganda 9y ago
xya3453 9y ago
The artificial islands are in response to the US holding the first island chain [1]. Without a foothold in the South China Sea, China's military and economic access to the outside world is at the mercy of the US. This is the same reason you see so much Chinese interest in Burma — unbridled Indian Ocean ports [2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean...
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  That doesn't sound right. IIRC, the US and the rest of the world view the South China sea as international waters, while China makes that claim that it's its sovereign territory (against all international custom). > the US holding the first island chain Come on, the US doesn't hold Japan. They're allies. > Without a foothold in the South China Sea China already has a foothold in the South China Sea: it's coast, Hainan, etc.
  - michaelt 9y ago
    But there /are/ US military bases in Japan. If China fears a naval blockade anchored by Japan and the Philippines, that's enough.
    - Slansitartop 9y ago
      Are those bases "holding" Japan for the US? Stated another way, is the US militarily occupying Japan today?
  - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
    Japan is in America’s sphere of influence, as is Taiwan. In case of a war, china’s only access to the open ocean is to the south, and that is assuming the Philippines and Indonesia are at least neutral.
  - bjlorenzen 9y ago
    If I follow you around with a gun held to your head, is it fair to characterize you as my ally?

3stop 9y ago

China is not Myanmar... Is there a Rohingya conspiracy I'm not aware of? Artificial islands in the south China sea... Is that not just a really crappy-low-tech version of an aircraft carrier? When you say we need to be prepared. For what? Do you think China will attack? Or it will just pursue economic growth like every other country? In exactly the way we always wanted them to... Remember in the past China was closed... We (the West) opened that can of worms... Now we decide we don't like worms...

gressquel 9y ago
1. China with its vote in UN security counsuel was a major suppord for Burmese government to do what what they did without fear of being punished. Google "China Rohingya" theres plenty of articles. 2. Are you literally justifying building island in other countrys sovereign territory? There is absolutely no excuse for this. How would Beijing like it if France or US moved their aircraft carrier 1 km outside of Shanghai? 3. China may not be capable of attakcing through convential war, but they are doing more nastyness without it. Supporting the Sri lankan governments assault on the tamils literally killing 60 000 people in the last weeks of the war in 2009. Imprisoning nobel pieze price winner till his death? Punishing Norway economically for awarding nobel peize price? Suppressing the muslim population in their country (Uyighur?) Stealing technologies and preventing any outside countries from enforcing IP-theft lawsuits. The list is too long to mention.
- empath75 9y ago
  What do you propose to do about it that wouldn’t end in even worse outcomes?
  - gressquel 9y ago
    My proposal is the initial proposal the western countries had for China. Let them into WTO and give the all the opportunities western countries have. And China certainly made good use of it. But the proposal also expected China to adapt to democracy and values like free trade. But instead they have become corrupt with power and gone the wrong direction, even electing a "dictator". Now its time to take away the giveaways: - If China is going to practically make life hard for western companies to operate in China, then same will happen to Chinese companies. Huawei is already experiencing this. - If you are going to steal intelectual property and mass-produce items then this will have implication on trade. - WTO sanctions needs to be implemented until China starts to respect the rules that every other country follows.
    - krapp 9y ago
      >WTO sanctions needs to be implemented until China starts to respect the rules that every other country follows Devil's advocate: those rules exist to protect the interests of Western countries, not China, and China is a nascent superpower with nuclear weapons, so why should China respect them?
      - lettergram 9y ago
        Those rules can be applied to other countries as well as China. It's not just to protect Western countries - it's just those Western countries are being the most impacted. Also China doesn't want civil unrest.. if we imposed harsh sanctions I can guarantee itll crollapse their economy, then their country. We just need to "tap the breaks" so to speak.
      - gressquel 9y ago
        China as a superpower will cease to exist if its economy crashes. Its economy is very dependent on EU and US. So yes, they will have to respect the rules.
ilamont 9y ago
The panel found that China’s claims of historic rights within the nine-dash line, which Beijing uses to demarcate its claims in the South China Sea, were without legal foundation. The panel also concluded that Beijing’s activities within the Philippines’ two-hundred-nautical-mile exclusive economic zone (EEZ), such as illegal fishing and environmentally ruinous artificial island construction, infringed on Manila’s sovereign rights. https://www.cfr.org/councilofcouncils/global_memos/p38227 https://www.cfr.org/councilofcouncils/global_memos/p38227
veidr 9y ago
China isn’t Myanmar but it’s completely obvious that the OP meant Uighur. That means you’re a shill / sock puppet / DQ
- gressquel 9y ago
  I meant Myanmar actually. But you are right Uighur is another black mark on chinese politics. Btw the chinese government is a support to burmese actions towards the Rohingya population, thats what I meant with my initial post. I am not going to repeat everything but there are plently of articles.
  - veidr 9y ago
    OK, I stand corrected.

nl 9y ago

Umm.. I'm Australian, so I follow the South China Sea closely. The US seems to have completely abandoned doing anything in the South China Sea. I mean - Trump talks a lot about China, but has done nothing to slow the Chinese build up there. Here's a recent article about how the Chinese have finished their fortifications on one of their artificial islands (which are pretty impressive!): http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/photos-reveal-chinas-south-china-sea-island-fortresses-are-complete/news-story/776e1a695fb41ccb7e47a436594c1530 http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/photos-reveal-c...

adventured 9y ago
That's because there isn't anything that a US administration can do to slow the build up there. It's the same reason the Obama Administration didn't do anything of consequence to stop China when they began building the artificial islands. It would require war, a near-war, or very large scale sanctions. A group of dozens of major economies would have to impose trade consequences. And even that might not deter China, given how badly they appear to want to annex that territory.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > there isn't anything that a US administration can do to slow the build up there What bollocks. Freedom of navigation operations are a light-touch manoeuvre that still pisses off Beijing [1]. Economically embracing China’s neighbours (as TPP tried to do) and bolstering the militaries of Taiwan, the Philippines and other threatened democracies is another reasonable step. [1] https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/south-china-sea-us-navy-conducts-freedom-of-navigation-operation/ https://thediplomat.com/2017/08/south-china-sea-us-navy-cond...
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
I don’t really see what china thinks it is accomplishing there. The logistics are just too long to keep those islands supplied and functioning if any hostilities break out. They aren’t exactly unsinkable aircraft carriers either.
georgeecollins 9y ago

godelmachine 9y ago

>> "I hope more countries wake up to what China is trying to do. Artificial island, Rohingya-cleansing, Sri Lanka airport etc. Its just the beginning, we need to be prepared." Would you please be concise and more elaborative about what you mean?

gressquel 9y ago
I hope you can forgive me but I feel its very demanding to write this over and over again. I think I have written about the Sri lankan airport thing before in detail. The reason I leave the keywords in my post is so people can do a google search and find the necessary information.
- thieving_magpie 9y ago
  The effect, at least for me, is a wild goose chase trying to determine how the context of your post fits things like "Rohingya-cleansing". I can kinda see what you're saying based on some of the articles that come up but if you think this is helpful I'd have to disagree.
  - godelmachine 9y ago
    I agree with you. I asked him this when I noticed - "Rohingya-cleansing"
- wmeredith 9y ago
  The brilliant thing about the web is you can just link to other writing, rather than just spread unsubstantiated FUD.

fwdpropaganda 9y ago

Can you give us specifics? What has the Trump administration actually done with China? In case you're not aware, China isn't even in the top 10 exporters of steel into the USA[0], so please don't say steel tariffs. [0] https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/imports-us.pdf https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/imports-us.pdf

gressquel 9y ago
The most recent is docking of Aircraft carrier in Vietnam for the first time since the cold war. There is also a closer relationship with Taiwan and new bills being made to apporve sale of weapons. The american ships and aircrafts have also ignored the territory of the artificial islands sending signal to all the commerical boats that the water is for everybody to use.
- latch 9y ago
  Neither of your last two points are Trump things. Selling arms to Taiwan isn't new. There's the Taiwan Relations Act Affirmation and Naval Vessel Transfer Act of 2014 and an arms deal signed under Obama in 2015 for $1.83 billion (1). Sailing within the 12 nautical miles of the man-made Chinese islands also happened under Obama (2). (1) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taiwan-arms/obama-administration-authorizes-1-83-billion-arms-sale-to-taiwan-idUSKBN0TZ2C520151216 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taiwan-arms/obama-adm... (2) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-warship-sails-within-12-miles-of-chinese-built-island-in-south-china-sea/2015/10/26/a178497b-7033-4e4c-a328-0f3c980cf193_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-warship-sails-within...
phkahler 9y ago
How about aluminum: https://www.wsj.com/article_email/chinese-billionaire-linked-to-giant-aluminum-stockpile-in-mexican-desert-1473356054-lMyQjAxMTA2NjA2ODUwOTg4Wj https://www.wsj.com/article_email/chinese-billionaire-linked...
- fwdpropaganda 9y ago

xya3453 9y ago

The artificial islands are in response to the US holding the first island chain [1]. Without a foothold in the South China Sea, China's military and economic access to the outside world is at the mercy of the US. This is the same reason you see so much Chinese interest in Burma — unbridled Indian Ocean ports [2]. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_of_Pearls_(Indian_Ocean...

Slansitartop 9y ago
That doesn't sound right. IIRC, the US and the rest of the world view the South China sea as international waters, while China makes that claim that it's its sovereign territory (against all international custom). > the US holding the first island chain Come on, the US doesn't hold Japan. They're allies. > Without a foothold in the South China Sea China already has a foothold in the South China Sea: it's coast, Hainan, etc.
- michaelt 9y ago
  But there /are/ US military bases in Japan. If China fears a naval blockade anchored by Japan and the Philippines, that's enough.
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    Are those bases "holding" Japan for the US? Stated another way, is the US militarily occupying Japan today?
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Japan is in America’s sphere of influence, as is Taiwan. In case of a war, china’s only access to the open ocean is to the south, and that is assuming the Philippines and Indonesia are at least neutral.
- bjlorenzen 9y ago
  If I follow you around with a gun held to your head, is it fair to characterize you as my ally?