18 ms·

Hey Microsoft, Stop Installing Apps on My PC Without Asking

393 points by Scramblejams 9y ago

Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
When you choose Windows, the computer uses you. When you choose Linux, you use the computer. Stop complaining and start switching. It should be apparent by now that Microsoft isn't going to stop their bad behavior.
- falcolas 9y ago
  It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows. Sure, there are some open source alternatives, but they are only rarely as good, and even more seldom better, than their Windows counterparts.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    Gamers who bend over for the sake of their hobby are a pathetic bunch. Linux has many, many great games, and if that's not enough supplement it with a PS4 or something and you'll never be bored. Most professionals would have no problem using Linux for their needs. What applications are you suggesting aren't up to snuff?
    - unethical_ban 9y ago
      Because the XBOX and PS and Switch are totally safe, open source products that respect personal information. Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows.
      - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        >Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows. You can make an argument about the size of the respective platform's game libraries, but not about their performance. Games on Linux often perform as well as or better than Windows. There's no clear trend that suggests the performance of games on Linux are worse than on Windows. And even if it were, what good is 70 FPS over 60 FPS beyond pissing contests? You're limited by your display's refresh rate anyway.
        falcolas 9y ago
        Many people use monitors with 144hz refresh rates. And increased FPS means you can turn graphics up, or enable more sophisticated anti-aliasing solutions, without impacting absolute performance.
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        My point is that the difference isn't going to be enough to be meaningful. If your GPU can drive 144 FPS on your Windows install it can probably drive 144 FPS on your Linux install with the same graphics settings.
        falcolas 9y ago
        I'm just noting why it's not "just a pissing contest". You're right that performance will be similar for games which were built with cross-OS compatibility in mind. But the differences in performance do matter.
        wizbright 9y ago
        That's true, but also some companies cough Nvidia cough have drivers that aren't up to snuff with an OPEN SOURCE system. It's crazy that the software is FREE to access and really there would be no need to pay any real fees to develop better drivers for systems. AMD is one of the big players that has actually been working with the community to help support their cards.
        jwagenet 9y ago
        This is not true: If you increase your target FPS to meet a monitor refresh rate, you must turn down your AA or other graphics settings to compensate when using the same hardware. Going from a 60 Hz to 144 Hz monitor more than doubles the FPS required for Vsync, which requires double the hardware performance to take advantage of the high refresh rate.
        falcolas 9y ago
        If you have 160FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can turn things up. If you have 145FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can't. That's the only point I was trying to make there.
      - wizbright 9y ago
        Even if a game performs better on PC, whose to say it isn't optimized? Some of Vavle's own games have performed better via the Linux build compared to Windows or Mac. It's also super sketchy to not be able to see what's fully happening in one's system.
        monochromatic 9y ago
        How do you feel about the closed BIOS and Management Engine that underlie everything?
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Frustrated, and I rally against it too. My laptops run coreboot. But the difference between your closed BIOS and your closed OS is that most people actually can choose their OS, whereas fixing the BIOS problem is a much more difficult obstacle.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        mykull 9y ago
        in my case, it makes me feel double-plus un-good. which is why I go to the trouble of killing the ME on any system I can, despite the at-best trivial impact of doing so.
    - mmagin 9y ago
      Please recommend a Linux CAD program that's as easy to use and featureful as Fusion 360.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows? Inevitably people end up with a requirement for some Windows program that trips up users or administrators in the workplace. Some workplaces (e.g. mine) are fully paid-up committed Microsoft shops where everyone has MSDN.
      - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        >PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows? Baby steps. I don't own a PS4 anyway, but I'm so tired of discussing Windows with people who whine about losing their games that I feel the need to specify an out.
        gambiting 9y ago
        And I feel a need to point out that you behave like a jerk in this thread and well below the standard HN is known for. If you have a problem with Windows, that's fine, calling people pathetic is not.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        "Just use Linux." "Well, maybe I would, but this program I use frequently is not available on Linux." "So? You shouldn't want to use that anyway." With a sales pitch like this I can't believe the Year of the Linux Desktop hasn't come to fruition yet.
    - Kagerjay 9y ago
      There's a huge range of applications that are only macOS or windows only that are a miles better in everyway. For instance, apple's sketch. You won't find anything like it even on Windows. For instance, windows PC. You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros, powerful 3rd party file explorers like directoryOpus, etc. You can't play video games on it, naturally gamedevelopment is a hassle as well. You can't run CAD programs, etc
      - badsectoracula 9y ago
        > You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros Note that you can do that with X11 too using tools like xbindkeys, xdotool, xnee, xrebind, wmctrl, etc.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        Well, sure, and DirectX applications could all be written as OpenGL applications instead. But who's going to do that work?
    - Mononokay 9y ago
      Okay, Mr. Stallman.
      - CamperBob2 9y ago
        "Okay, Mr. Stallman, you've successfully forecast everything that's happened in computing over the last few years, and done so literally decades in advance, so thanks for that I guess, but please take off the tinfoil and go away now."
  - bsilvereagle 9y ago
    > especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows. I have gotten around this with a virtualized Windows installation for CAD applications. The Windows VM goes online for software activation only. With VFIO, a dedicated graphics card, and an nVME SSD I don't feel any performance degradation. The graphics card and nVME drive are passed directly to the VM. Some simple benchmarks show there is ~3% performance decline in the VM vs booting it native, but I don't "feel" it. Granted, picking VFIO compliant hardware and setting everything up is far outside the ability of the average Windows user.
    - machinesmachine 9y ago
      I'm really surprised it works at all, great job man
      - bsilvereagle 9y ago
        VFIO is the real deal - if you can find the right hardware. Unfortunately, there isn't a master list of VFIO compatible hardware (that I know of). You have to scour reddit or the Red Hat VFIO mailing lists hoping someone has posted the motherboard/processor you're interested in. Once you have hardware, there are lots of resources for pulling it off: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/vfio.txt https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/vfio.txt https://www.redhat.com/archives/vfio-users/ https://www.redhat.com/archives/vfio-users/ https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM... https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO/
        walterbell 9y ago
        Lenovo, Dell or HP business (vPro) desktops will work. Dell T20/T30 is often on sale for under $500.
    - giggles_giggles 9y ago
      What hypervisor are you using to do this?
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    >It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows. I'm both, and you're definitely wrong. 155 of my 343 steam games have direct native ports. I've just stopped playing stellaris and started playing KSP. I've been a linux gamer for the last three years and it's been a better experience, not worse. I dominate on ballistic overkill because the input lag is noticeably lower on linux. I'm also a software developer, and with the exception of dotnet development, software development is a considerably smoother and more consistant experience on linux. It grates every day to have to use windows at work, and I do half of my work inside a linux VM.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      What about AutoCAD, Inventor, Photoshop, AfterEffects, Lightroom, ...?
      - falcolas 9y ago
        Maya, Sketchbook, Fusion, Visual Studio, DirectX, Microsoft Office, Acrobat, ... Here's one really simple example for you of why this Windows software matters to a very large community of professionals: most accounting work is both taught and done in Excel.
      - Sir_Substance 9y ago
        Autocad/inventor->OpenScad/FreeCad Photoshop->Gimp or just run it with wine Lightroom->Darktable Here's a few other pretty awesome art tools you might want to know about BTW: Krita Blender Inkscape If we're doing "what abouts" though, what about: freely interchangable desktop layouts native docker support a user-friendly terminal an os kernel that is designed to be malware resistant Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own. Custom launchers are one of the most downloaded android app categories, don't try to tell me people don't want it. But hey, at least windows finally got multiple desktops by cribbing the idea from linux after two decades of unsuccessfully trying to tell their customers that it wasn't really that good a feature. If the best you can say about your operating system is "adobe supports it", which is what it seems like you're saying, then oh dear. Like, I get it, photoshop is pretty darn good. But for realsies, we're in a thread where the title post is about microsoft installing random crap on your computer without permission. This is the same company that is showing ads on your lock screen and start bar[1], has been formally chastised by national governments for it's handling of telemetry[2], autoinstalled updates that bricked peoples laptops[3] and then autoinstalled other updates that put other peoples computers in reboot loops[4]. They're gonna keep doing this stuff. For goodness sake, they incentivised peoples "upgrades" from windows 7 by installing nagware with a deliberately malicious UI[5], and attempting to directly cause professional conflict for sysadmins with stability concerns[6]. You're part of an eternal beta of questionable QA control at the hands of a company that has a documented history of behaving unethically. Do they have to send someone round to your house to kill and eat your cat in front of you before you decide you could maybe dig deep and stoop to learning gimp? [1]https://www.pcworld.com/article/3039827/windows/7-ways-windows-10-pushes-ads-at-you-and-how-to-stop-them.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/3039827/windows/7-ways-windo... [2]http://www.zdnet.com/article/french-authorities-serve-notice-to-microsoft-for-windows-10-privacy-failings/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/french-authorities-serve-notice... [3]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/08/25/windows-10-anniversary-update-keeps-breaking-pcs/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/08/25/windows-10-... [4]http://news.softpedia.com/news/windows-10-fall-creators-update-bug-blocks-the-install-on-some-pcs-518214.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/windows-10-fall-creators-upda... [5]https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest-trick-clicking-x-to-dismiss-windows-10-upgrade-doesnt-stop-upgrade-process https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest... [6]https://www.windowschimp.com/admins-angered-new-windows-10-upgrade-push/ https://www.windowschimp.com/admins-angered-new-windows-10-u...
  - makecheck 9y ago
    Yes “but” how do expect open alternatives to become better? Contribute to a project (with a very low bar for “contribute”, anything from “file a bug” to “fix the documentation” to “make artwork”). Yes, some big companies also push Linux forward but individuals who want good alternatives can do something to make those alternatives happen.
    - falcolas 9y ago
      An open source project for external customers (i.e. us) operated by a bunch of unpaid volunteers will never really be able to compete with an application with paid developers, invested users, and the supporting departments. I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good. For a corollary: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/936629310785437696 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/936629310785437696
      - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        >I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good. Hah, this is rich. Many open source products are far better than their proprietary alternatives, especially developer oriented products (which is natural considering that developers tend to use open source and tend to improve their own tools).
        emodendroket 9y ago
        On the other hand, when it comes to categories like games, video game console emulators, office productivity applications, document publishing, etc., the open-source alternatives are generally way worse.
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        >games See pretty much every other reply in this thread for my take on this >video game console emulators Wrong, most emulators are open source, support Linux, and work great. >office productivity applications "way worse" is a bit harsh for describing LibreOffice. It works quite well in my experience. >document publishing I don't know what this is supposed to be. LaTeX is pretty good, though.
- HenryBemis 9y ago
  Sorry Sir_Cmpwn, but that's happening with W10. Windows 8.1 with the 'Windows Firewall Control", classicshell, a strong HOSTS file (someonewhocares.org), and a Firefox with NoScript/ublock/adblock+/etc and you got your privacy control in order. I do agree with the Linux argument you are making, but you cannot swerve 50% of the global Windows users into Linux. It still doesn't have the best UI reputation (although it gets the job done).
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    You can't simultaneously talk about 50% of global Windows users and their struggles with UI and assume they have the foggiest idea how to set up a strong HOSTS file and a carefully secured Firefox installation. How about they just don't use a hostile OS? If you're defending yourself from your own operating system, you've chosen the wrong damn operating system. Also, I don't want to hear the UI argument when KDE Plasma exists. I bet 90% or better of Windows users would be comfortable on Plasma.
    - blibble 9y ago
      > If you're defending yourself from your own operating system, you've chosen the wrong damn operating system. this is exactly 100% dead on the money prior to Windows 10 Microsoft was at worst known for producing unreliable mediocre quality software, but they were trustworthy (at least for the end user) Windows 10 changed everything, at the point you're fighting the company that made the OS to not spy on you, not show you ads, not reboot against your will and not reinstall random crapware you previously removed: it's time to switch
  - Bl4ckb0ne 9y ago
    Plasma is basically windows 10 UI, and Cinnamon is windows 7 UI.
  - TPPOW0020 9y ago
    As a professional who gets work done with Linux, I disagree. Lots of desktop environments (KDE, XFCE, Cinnamon) offer a UI is just as polished as mac or windows. Lack of suitable software can be a dealbreaker for some professions. There aren't many professional video editing suites, for example. But in companies I've worked at, most workers only need a browser and an office suite to do their jobs. Linux would work for them. I think the real obstacle is training. You have a workforce that's already used to the way windows works. It's easier to hire IT people with windows experience than it is with Linux. Users know how to do their tasks in Microsoft office, and even though Libre office is similar, they might have to learn a few new things.
- Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
  I'd switch to Linux in the blink of an eye if I didn't have to worry about my games working. WINE is great and all, but it's still not 100% compatible.
  - Bl4ckb0ne 9y ago
    How about contributing to make things better
    - da_chicken 9y ago
      Not every user is capable of being a developer for every application they want to use.
      - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Then donate however many thousands of dollars you were going to spend on Autodesk/etc licenses to Blender, Krita, Gimp, etc. Blender and Krita are competitive with their commercial counterparts and Gimp is getting there.
        Alupis 9y ago
        I'm a very strong advocate of Open Source Software, and all things Linux as well. I've used Gimp, Inkscape, and others... but sometimes you just need to get work done, and the closed source proprietary application is what you need, I'm sorry to say. Donating thousands of dollars to Gimp today isn't going to put it on par with Photoshop today... I wish it would. Maybe it could be in a few years... but I need to get work done right now. Sometimes you do need a commercial interest behind something to drive it's progress. That doesn't mean it has to be closed and proprietary, but they often are, sadly.
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Time moves inexorably forward. Donate today and "a few years" will come.
- youseecomrade 9y ago
  The majority of people who could use Linux exclusively (only need a browser, don't need Office compatibility, nothing fancy) buy a "just works" Windows laptop or tablet and I bet 99% of them don't even know what Linux is. Even then you get some weird cases like banking software not working on Linux and they ask you to install Windows again. And kids wants to play what their friends are playing, it's hard to break the cycle. Oh you want to play PUBG? Too bad. Some games you might even be able to make it work with some baby sitting but it will drain all your energy and you are not getting paid for the job. If you want Linux to have a chance it needs to play the long game and that won't ever happen. Everything I own except my gaming PC is Linux but it's not even worth trying to convert others. I find pretty immature to suggest "if your job demands Windows, just quit", "just spend 20 hours trying to make this thing that just works in Windows", "you don't need AAA games". I say immature because I was doing this shit a few years ago and I still cringe about it. In my experience trying to teach people about the importance of privacy is mostly futile. What worked was, and I only did this to a close family friend, to show him what I could learn about him just by showing what was stored in AppData and many other folders. Some thumbnails will be forever ingrained in my mind.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    I'm getting sick of this dichotomy. It's trivial to install both. Keep windows 10 on a partition big enough for your games/Netflix/etc., and use Debian/Archlinux/NixOS/whatever for everything else.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Trivial to install both but a real hassle to actually use both.
      - juliangoldsmith 9y ago
        Not really. You reboot your computer, and press a key to pick which one you want.
- Feniks 9y ago
  Or you can just say "FUCK it" get Enterprise LTSB, spend a few hours tweaking it and never have to worry about anything for 5 years. Yes you're breaking the law but when did that stop anyone?
- stagger87 9y ago
  I'll switch when all my customers switch.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Thanks for the advice. I will just ask everyone who wrote the software I use to port it.
TwoNineA 9y ago
I set up my brother in-law's new HP laptop he got from Costco and I had to spend over 2 hours removing crap from it. The amount of crapware installed (and a lot of them are MS apps) is unreal.
- HenryBemis 9y ago
  (Unfortunately) HP has been loading their machines with crapware for about a decade now. :(
  - Stranger43 9y ago
    It's not just HP it's just about everything that comes out an retail store without an apple logo on it(unless you count itunes/facetime as unwanted software in which case it's just about everything). If you buy high end laptops from a business partner or directly from the vendor and make sure you get a pro(paid) version of windows things are better but the razor thin margins of the consumer market make it hard to avoid strange and badly designed attempts at price differentiation and/or payola schemes.
    - suby 9y ago
      If anyone wants a Windows laptop without bloatware, I think the best bet is through a Microsoft Store. They sell "signature edition" laptops which are supposed to contain Windows and nothing else. That's if the marketing is to be believed, anyway, I personally have never done this. On another note, I got an XPS 13 from Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed. As far as I could tell, the only extra software on there was some drivers. I realize that the average person isn't going to want a Linux laptop though.
      - AlphaSite 9y ago
        Windows its self installs candy crush and other crap.
  - TwoNineA 9y ago
    Why is MS cramming down my throat some 3D Pain thing, Augmented Reality crap and other apps I don't care about? Edit: Oh and Camera app. On a desktop. Without even a webcam. What is the justification for that?
Scramblejams 9y ago
It’s hard to believe that the loss of goodwill is worth whatever revenue Microsoft’s gaining from this, so I have to assume this is them dipping their toe into a strategy that attempts to make them more relevant to users. Maybe a reaction to the Windows app store’s lack of success? Thoughts?
- jbigelow76 9y ago
  I think it shows how little value Windows is to Microsoft anymore. Office 365 and Azure are where the money is at for the company now. I use Win 10 Enterprise at work so I don't have to worry about any of the Candy Crush or FB malware trash on my PC but no way would I buy a consumer Windows based laptop anymore.
  - tjalfi 9y ago
    I use Windows 10 Enterprise at work and our image team had to specifically remove Candy Crush. It’s actually more annoying than that, the semiannual OS updates cause Candy Crush to be reinstalled.
    - paulryanrogers 9y ago
      This is very unprofessional. Sadly iOS suffers a similar fate with Bluetooth.
      - IshKebab 9y ago
        It, reinstalls Bluetooth?
      - urda 9y ago
        > Sadly iOS suffers a similar fate with Bluetooth. What are you talking about?
        paulryanrogers 9y ago
        Updates re-enable Bluetooth regardless of the user's preference [0]. (Or did until newer versions, I haven't updated one in a while.) [0] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-is-why-apple-enables-bluetooth-every-time-you-80079149965.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-is-why-apple-enables-blue...
HenryBemis 9y ago
Windows 10 is a cancer. M$ removed the control from the user, and placed it to their money-hungry baboons. It was clear since 8 and 8.1 that M$ will go for the "app model", where you are no longer the administrator on your own machine 'for your own protection'. I hope they come around, or they will just lose all their tech-savy customers. I guess it's their turn to rip off their customers private-date/lives, just as Google does for some years now with Android. I do see the benefits though for some users, but in my book, the privacy violation is worse than the benefits.
- Kagerjay 9y ago
  The thing I hate the most about windows 10 is lots of its default settings out of the box, whenever I have to set up a new PC for a family member. That, and windows 10 likes to automatically update itself whenever it wants. Whenever I installed a new windows 7 PC, it was just plug and play really. When I have to install a new windows 10 PC, I have a significantly longer list of items that I do to it (delete cortana, enable search to only work locally, local user only (no xbox or microsoft login), remove forced updates, remove task panels, delete all PUPware that comes with it, etc), do a couple of registry edits, etc. Lastly, privacy. No such thing as privacy in windows 10, the whole OS is basically spyware. The only thing I like about windows 10 over its previous versions is the system refresh, but thats about it
- stevecalifornia 9y ago
  "M$" Instantly ignored.
  - stinos 9y ago
    I get your point, and I do get the OP's. But in all fairness, Google/FB/... are just lucky they don't have an 's' in their name because the '$' applies to all of them. Hmm, maybe the 'e' in Apple could be turned into the euro sign :]
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    It's definitely a blast from the internet commenting past, but given their recent user-hostile design decisions which can't be justified by anything other than abject greed at my expense, I think it's about ready for a comeback...
rbobby 9y ago
It's going to be odd if Win10 gets labeled as PUP (potentially unwanted program) by antivirus software.
- gruez 9y ago
  which is going to happen... never. unless that said antivirus wants to commit market suicide by pissing off every user.
  - mtgx 9y ago
    True. But it could make for a pretty funny April Fools' joke (-in disguise).
- AlexandrB 9y ago
  That would only make sense if the antivirus software flagged itself as PUP first.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  It's hard to see what the action the program takes for you in that case. Formatting your hard drive?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
GirlsCanCode 9y ago
I'm running "Pro" and I'm not seeing this.
ThoAppelsin 9y ago
This isn't really an issue that goes beyond your first 1 hour on your new Windows 10 computer. You delete them, and then they are gone forever. They do not re-install themselves, they only come with a new user account. They were annoying to me, only when I had installed the Windows 10 for the very first time, 2 years ago. I had several Windows 10 re-installations since then, and it really isn't worth nagging about them for the 30-45 seconds they steal from you as you remove them. Besides, my housemate actually liked and kept some of them on his account. It probably really just does increase the overall customer experience.
- mikhailt 9y ago
  Except on two separate machines, a Windows update reinstalled them for me. MS did said it was a bug but it happened a few times after that for me.
  - ThoAppelsin 9y ago
    I think I also may have had some ads back with a major update (e.g. Creators, Fall Creators), but I don't remember having them back ever with the normal updates. In any case, it really is just a breeze to remove UWP apps, and they leave no trace either, so I cannot rationalize how it can be this so annoying to anyone.
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      That's right, only the major updates reinstall these apps (and introduce new ones).
    - suby 9y ago
      The ad issue is separate to me. They keep adding ads to more and more places in Windows 10, and each location has a different toggle to turn on / off. I turned off all advertising options in Windows 10 when I first installed, only to be greeted by another ad months later which they had added with a newly downloaded update. The toggles aren't even centralized, you have to hunt them down in different menus. I have a hard time believing this wasn't done on purpose.
Animats 9y ago
And that's why my one remaining Windows machine runs Windows 7.
- djaychela 9y ago
  Me too. I have a perfectly functional music studio computer that's dual-booting Win7 on both partitions - one for more general use and making YouTube videos, and the other for making music. I've had quite a few 'why aren't you running Win10' comments... I have nothing to gain and a lot to lose - time if nothing else. I hate the Win10 UI, bloatware and changing things without your consent, and Win7 works perfectly for me at the moment.
  - tim333 9y ago
    Yeah I 'upgraded' to 10 then 'downgraded' back to 7. I've yet to regret going back.
aphextron 9y ago
To anyone wondering, all of that crap can be removed with PowerShell: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/easily-remove-bloatware-windows-10/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/easily-remove-bloatware-window...
- edsouza 9y ago
  I have done that before, but on the first anniversary update, they all come back. I will try it again, and wait for the next anniversary update to see if they come back again.
  - slumberlust 9y ago
    Spoiler: They will come back.
beached_whale 9y ago
I use Windows when I have to now. I used to use Visual Studio as it is really good. But since Windows 8 and more so Windows 10 they have started taking from me. I paid for Windows 10 Pro, but I am subjected to the task of repeatedly removing software, or adverts for software, that I explicitly said remove. This is repeated when major updates go through. Plus the extra data and processing to get a system that isn't using my resources for tasks that I did not ask it too. It is my computer, not theirs. So I dual boot and 99% of the time sit in Kubuntu land and my computer is fast, responsive, and generally only doing what I ask it too. As it should be. Microsoft found a way to take an i7-7500 with 32GB of ram and make it feel slow on a fast OS. Windows 10 can be fast.
- itwy 9y ago
  Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.
  - preordained 9y ago
    60% of the time, it makes sense every time
  - beached_whale 9y ago
    Windows 10 would be fast if it wasn't busy doing tasks I didn't ask it to.
- Maert 9y ago
  What am I missing? I have Windows 10 Pro on 2 computers I use daily, I have no crap games auto installing, I have no restarts other than when I select to, my computer never slows down "because windows things". What are you guys experiencing that I am not?
xeromal 9y ago
I'd recommend running Windows Server 2016 or Windows 10 LTSB to avoid the entire mess. I run WS 2016 for my dev machine and I haven't had any issues and I don't have to deal with the damned Windows Store.
- Groxx 9y ago
  Any problems with Server / LTSB for gaming? (honest question - that's the sole reason I have windows anything and I'd be thrilled to get rid of all the absolute nonsense they've been throwing at me)
  - dimensi0nal 9y ago
    LTSB is fine, but some things will refuse to run on Server.
  - xeromal 9y ago
    I run server 2016 and I can run all my dev tools. VS Code, VS 20x, SSMS, MySQL, PostGres, Xamarin. On top of that, I can run Rome 2 Total War which is not a simple game. It runs great.
- rjbwork 9y ago
  Isn't that a bit expensive?
  - mcbits 9y ago
    Not sure about this, but you may be able to run the 180-day trial as much as you want, as long as you're willing to reinstall every 180 days. I installed the 2008 and 2012 trials several times over the years and got the full trial each time, but I haven't tried it back-to-back after expiration.
    - GordonS 9y ago
      I think you'd be on shaky legal ground there. In any case, it's a major hassle to reinstall your OS
keithnz 9y ago
It's a tricky problem. I think tech people are fringe. For me, I would want to disable it all. But if people can turn it off then it doesn't let microsoft improve and adapt. In concept, I kind of like the idea the OS could anticipate the things I need. It's how we imagine futuristic computer systems. It's a bit different from the traditional OS where you are the master over everything. I'm not sure many on HN are going to like this thing, but I would think MS gets to see the stats and has better view of how well they are doing. Percentage wise it might be working out pretty good, however, each percentage point they piss off ends up being a lot of people and if the fringe of tech people are in that 1% that can end up in a lot of angry blogs.
- Retra 9y ago
  I would naively expect that Microsoft's market share is too large for any real adapting to occur. They've made my machines significantly worse enough times that I've stopped using their OSs completely, and since then I just hear more of the same. They can get away with making things worse, so why shouldn't they?
- tmorton 9y ago
  boggle What? NO. Just no. This doesn't "anticipate the things I need". It doesn't "anticipate" anything. It's not "the things I need", it's whatever MS decides to promote. There's a vaguely similar feature, that would be vaguely defensible - but this isn't it. This is malware, plain and simple.
  - titanix2 9y ago
    Totally agree. My computers are my things and should be under my control only. That’s why I’m wary of Win 10 which forces system replacement, install softwares without consent, display advertisements, can preload UWP apps in memory, etc. All this things might be an acceptable comprise on mobile for some people (which include myself) but is a big no go on anything desktop or server class. My harware is not here to be part of someone else botnet. If MS wants my money, let’s make good product without subscription and let me pay for it. I would be glad to pay 20 to 50€ for Visual Studio if it encourages user friendly business practices.
duncan_bayne 9y ago
Many (most?) people on Hacker News might be too young to remember the Halloween Documents. They were internal Microsoft documents describing their proposed strategy for dealing with competition from then-new Free Software alternatives: http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/ http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/ If you want to understand why Microsoft is acting the way they are, read those documents. It's not that I think they are still executing the strategies and tactics spelled out therein. Quite the contrary; Microsoft realises they've lost the OS war to Linux (on one front) and OSX (on the other). The point is how astonishingly user-hostile those memos are. They lay out a strategy for competing with Free Software that has almost nothing to do with their users' needs and wants. Instead, the obvious assumption is that their users will be sacrificed to their (Microsoft's) strategic goals. That's not to say that individual Microsoft teams don't produce excellent, user-centric software (two I can think of in my own experience are Excel and Visual Studio). But the executive leadership, and company culture as a whole, seems to care little about the people who actually use their products. This was clearly true back in the 90s, and is clearly true now. In the 90s it was 'embrace and extend', in the 2010s it's 'track and advertise'.
- BinaryIdiot 9y ago
  Those memos are over 20 years old. You can't point to something 20 years old and say "see, they did it before therefore that's what's happening today". I'm not a fan of what they're doing with some of the Windows 10 defaults. But you gotta be crazy to not see the user improvements they've done in so many other areas. They are a very, very different company than they were back then. I'm not saying that excuses anything but you're drawing false equivalences using a 2 decades old set of memos to try and back it.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    The underlying theme is _exactly_ the same: they will chuck their users under the bus for what they see as important strategic goals. It was true 20 years ago, and everything I can see suggests it's still true today. This is part of the reason I gave up developing for Windows and .NET after around a decade of doing it. I prefer to work on a stack with which I'm at least partially values-aligned. (Same reason I abandoned Linux for FreeBSD, actually).
hokkos 9y ago
Windows has a new feature called "Controlled Folder Access", it is a security mecanism that protect from ransomware. It is a great idea, but the implementation is annoying. It block write access to selected directories, so lot of software fail to add a link to the desktop, or add files in the Documents folder. It should have protect agains delete not new file creation. Also the default Defender antivirus is so slow, it make the installation of software package 2 or 3 slower. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10s-controlled-folder-access-anti-ransomware-feature-is-now-live/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10s-...
- emodendroket 9y ago
  To protect from ransomware you need to at least prevent modification of existing files.
  - Sylos 9y ago
    Which he did not argue against. He said that creating new files should still be possible.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      Well he only mentions delete. Do the Windows permissions actually make a meaningful distinction between create and modify? I think that might have been difficult to do without completely rewriting a lot of stuff.
- GordonS 9y ago
  > Also the default Defender antivirus is so slow Hah! You must not have used Mcafee Enterprise. I recently moved to Defender and the difference is startling - my laptop fans literally never stopped whining with Mcafee, as it was constantly gobbling CPU. With Defender, it remains silent, and CPU usage is low. I've used other AV systems too (e.g. Avira), and for sure they're better than Mcafee, but I'm impressed with Defender. Don't see any reason for me to use anything else.
nkrisc 9y ago
I've considered upgrading to Windows 10 from time to time but then I read something like this. Is there a way to completely/permanently neuter the Windows App store and functions like the one mentioned here?
- 15charlimit 9y ago
  I believe the LTSB Enterprise edition physically does not contain the "windows app store", cortana, and all the other garbage that gets in the way of a normally functioning computer.
- Chardok 9y ago
  Unfortunately any workaround we find has been "broken" with the subsequent Windows update, meaning Microsoft is actively working against any fixes for it. I would love to be proven wrong, but the only way I know for sure is upgrading to the Enterprise or education editions.
- dabockster 9y ago
  I've seen an option to do just this in WPD. https://getwpd.com/ https://getwpd.com/ I don't know how effective it is, though.
bondolo 9y ago
I have never used Windows 10 nor made significant use of any Windows version since Windows XP. Nonetheless my parents asked me to look at some issues they were having with their laptops. The trend of increasing clutter that has plagued Windows since XP seems to have accelerated. The user experience appears to have been designed by a hoarder. I spent a significant amount of time asking "Do you know what this is? Do you use it?" to be able to remove some of the many goo-gahs that had been helpfully installed by either Windows or one of their devices. It made me sad that my parents just accepted that this was how computers are because they were unaware that the crap-strewn-everywhere experience was a deliberate choice for the Windows ecosystem.
- thirdsun 9y ago
  To be fair, I'm not sure if Windows alone is to blame in this case. If you're not familiar with Windows and try to clean a PC that isn't yours, it's probably hard to tell what was user installed, what was pre-installed by the manufacturers (they love to include bloatware and unnecessary "tools") and what actually came with Windows. It's very easy for unaware users to install all sorts of crap and they never know where it came from or what it does - that's basically every PC of a non-tech-savvy user ever.
Timothycquinn 9y ago
Had similar experience with not being able to disable the windows store for my kids accounts. It was simply not possible and I followed all the Microsoft recommended procedures and external suggested ones to no avail. I just gave up and stopped using Windows for my family computer and spun back up an older mac Mini. This kind of lock in is very bad for the ecosystem and is a security nightmare. I don't know if I will ever use consumer grade windows for my personal computers any longer.
sofaofthedamned 9y ago
For the last 15 years or so i've earned my money doing Linux stuff. Before then I was doing VB/.NET/SQL Server etc. January 2016 I worked at a secure facility that wanted an entire system doing malware analysis. The bare servers were running Linux, but some of the software used Windows so there were Windows VMs there. Usual KVM stuff. Bear in mind this is a closed system and the Windows VMs were ephemeral, i.e. had to be discarded and reset after each malware run where we did static code analysis etc. So we used the Professional (hah) version, with AutoUnattend.xml or whatever it was to automatically reset them. This worked fine until after a certain point with WSUS - we obviously applied security updates - where the VMs wouldn't boot. Turns out that a point in Windows 10's life they decided you needed a better version of Windows to be able to do the equivalent of a preseed or kickstart. 4 months of work disappeared, plus the additional licence cost; need to run a domain etc etc. Luckily I left soon after but trust me - at any future role I will look at every possibility before Windows. I moved a subsequent client (large international appliance manufacturer that you've heard of) to Linux servers precisely because of this sort of shit. Windows is done, it's just a case of when it disappears. This is exactly why Microsoft are pushing Azure and Office - they know the outcome, they're just squeezing the pips until it happens.
- EpicEng 9y ago
  >Windows is done Your use case is very niche compared to how MS makes most of its money on Windows licenses. Windows isn't going anywhere until it's no longer pre-loaded on every machine, enterprise customers stop buying it completely, and Linux is much more user friendly on the desktop. I don't disagree with anything else you said, admin'ing windows boxes is a terrible experience.
  - sofaofthedamned 9y ago
    How the loving fuck can you expect to change the terms of engagement with your OS after it's released and not expect to lose business? I know for a fact the malware analysis software we used are now planning a Linux version. I've literally persuaded a multinational to not continue using .net and Windows servers because of my argument that it's not sustainable. They alone are tens of thousands of Windows licenses that may go to Red Hat or even Centos or Ubuntu. Windows has already started to go - my son doesn't know how to use it, all he's used is Google Docs or an iPhone / iPad. There is no love for Windows, only halcyon remembrances from the likes of myself who remembered the golden days of MSDN subscriptions. There is literally not a startup on the planet who will decide 'fuck it, we'll use a windows domain and Office instead of o365 or Google Apps.
vbezhenar 9y ago
Those articles are funny because for me all previous Windows versions were unusable, but I've found Windows 10 just the best OS. I don't have Facebook preinstalled and even if it was, I couldn't care less about it. There are bazillions of DLLs and other stuff preinstalled, what's the deal with one HTML page that I don't even run. I value other things, real usability improvements (for example virtual desktops are much better than macOS ones) and technical advancements (Linux subsystem, hyper-v, PowerShell).
- reaperducer 9y ago
  >what's the deal with one HTML page that I don't even run You sound like I spammer I once knew. He would always say things like "What's the big deal with one e-mail that you're not going to read anyway. Just delete it." The mail icon in his Mac's dock showed over 29,000 unread messages. Spam just didn't bother him the way Windows popping up ads for Facebook doesn't bother you.
  - vbezhenar 9y ago
    One might say "what's the big deal to buy new Mac if you want more RAM, paying premium for bad hardware". Another might say "What's the big deal not to play OverWatch with your friends and having unusable hibernate". I might say "what's the deal with those ads I can remove within a minute", yes. It's all about compromises. I'd like to have a perfect OS, but I have to choose between available alternatives.
- Sylos 9y ago
  I'm not sure how you would create a worse implementation of virtual desktops than Windows 10 has them: - No indication of other workspaces existing. - No indication of what applications are in those other workspaces. - The keyboard shortcut for walking through desktops requires two hands (and in typical Windows fashion cannot be rebound). I'm not familiar with macOS' implementation, so if you actually think that it's worse, then I would like to know how. Also should be said, though, that you can replace the window manager on macOS, which should allow you to get most of the features of an actually good implementation of virtual desktops. I'm not aware of a way to do that on Windows.
garganzol 9y ago
Never happened to me. I use a free tool called "Spybot Anti-Beacon for Windows 10" https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ on ALL machines I have. Cannot recommend it enough.
ulkesh 9y ago
Hey Microsoft, also stop rebooting without asking. In fact, just stop automatically doing anything and let me choose to do it myself. Be more like Linux.
- Tijdreiziger 9y ago
  This doesn't work for a majority of Windows users, because when given the choice, they will never reboot.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    So what? It's not Microsoft's job to maintain the OS, it's the user's job.
  - ulkesh 9y ago
    Which is how it should be. Microsoft should design their OS to not require reboots for updates. The only time I ever have to reboot my Linux box is for a kernel update — that’s it.
expertentipp 9y ago
Now we won’t because your computer belongs to us. psssst have you heard about our new programming language TypeScript? Just adopt it, this time it will work out perfectly between us.
mixmastamyk 9y ago
I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole a product from a company that that thinks this is acceptable.
derrikcurran 9y ago
There are so many accounts of Windows 10 being installed, (re)installing apps, adding tiles that were previously removed, etc. without permission... but none of it has ever happened to me and I don't understand why. It's bewildering. Maybe it's because I have Windows 10 Pro instead of Home? The only thing I've seen is that it's pretty aggressive about badgering me to restart for an update (but doesn't restart until I say it can).
- zeta0134 9y ago
  I don't know how much truth there is to this, and I'll check with my personal machines when I get home (I run Linux at work) but when I worked in a retail space, the apps that were pre-loaded varied based on the OEM. Dell got a set, Toshiba got a different set, Lenovo got a different set, etc. Sometimes it varied based on the particular line, like HP would include a different set of games on their laptops that had touchscreen devices, etc. I'm not 100% confident on this and I haven't worked in Retail for a couple of years thankfully, but I suspect strongly that the apps that are installed are pushed not by Microsoft, but by the OEM in their recovery image. I suspect thus that if you buy a standalone version of Windows 10, and clean install the machine with nothing else on the hard drive, that you won't get those apps pre-installed. But buy a computer with Windows 10 preloaded, and the sky's the limit, the OEM pushes what they want, and Microsoft makes it difficult to opt out. I'd love someone else to weigh in on this, because I've been distanced from the situation for a while. But no matter how you slice it, users are getting increasingly frustrated, and I think it's a terrible business strategy for Microsoft. They've ruined any potential trust I might have had for their app store before it had a chance to even take off, and I'm not sure they'll be able to recover. If anything, I've got my eyes on Google, who stand positioned to completely shake up the personal computer space with Chrome OS and its budding Android apps support. It'll be interesting to see how the space unfolds.
- valtism 9y ago
  I can personally attest to this happening. Candy Crush kept popping back up, completely installed after I removed it. I'm sure I didn't accidentally click any dialogue boxes popping up asking for it to be installed. I've only recently come back to Windows from MacOS for work, and this (along with the invasive tracking that doesn't turn off even if you turn the settings off) floored me.
hello_asdf 9y ago
Is there a list of domains that Microsoft is using to download these apps from? I can't find one by Googling.
x3sphere 9y ago
I only run Windows inside a VM now. The main reason I didn't switch to Linux sooner was because of games, but GPU passthrough works well enough now that I can dedicate my main GPU to a VM and get close to native performance (within 3-5%). Currently I have a Vega 64 configured for passthrough on a Threadripper 1950X system and it runs great. It's much more convenient than dual booting.
- Qerub 9y ago
  I find this solution interesting. What virtualization software do you use? In what way to do you expose input devices to the VM?
remir 9y ago
I whish ReactOS was mature enough that you could run every win32 programs and games in it perfectly.
sandov 9y ago
Hey, shit store: stop selling shit.

393 points by Scramblejams 9y ago

When you choose Windows, the computer uses you. When you choose Linux, you use the computer. Stop complaining and start switching. It should be apparent by now that Microsoft isn't going to stop their bad behavior.

falcolas 9y ago
It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows. Sure, there are some open source alternatives, but they are only rarely as good, and even more seldom better, than their Windows counterparts.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  Gamers who bend over for the sake of their hobby are a pathetic bunch. Linux has many, many great games, and if that's not enough supplement it with a PS4 or something and you'll never be bored. Most professionals would have no problem using Linux for their needs. What applications are you suggesting aren't up to snuff?
  - unethical_ban 9y ago
    Because the XBOX and PS and Switch are totally safe, open source products that respect personal information. Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      >Linux has more gaming than it did 5-10 years ago, but if someone wants to play a game at top performance on PC, you typically need to choose Windows. You can make an argument about the size of the respective platform's game libraries, but not about their performance. Games on Linux often perform as well as or better than Windows. There's no clear trend that suggests the performance of games on Linux are worse than on Windows. And even if it were, what good is 70 FPS over 60 FPS beyond pissing contests? You're limited by your display's refresh rate anyway.
      - falcolas 9y ago
        Many people use monitors with 144hz refresh rates. And increased FPS means you can turn graphics up, or enable more sophisticated anti-aliasing solutions, without impacting absolute performance.
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        My point is that the difference isn't going to be enough to be meaningful. If your GPU can drive 144 FPS on your Windows install it can probably drive 144 FPS on your Linux install with the same graphics settings.
        falcolas 9y ago
        I'm just noting why it's not "just a pissing contest". You're right that performance will be similar for games which were built with cross-OS compatibility in mind. But the differences in performance do matter.
        wizbright 9y ago
        That's true, but also some companies cough Nvidia cough have drivers that aren't up to snuff with an OPEN SOURCE system. It's crazy that the software is FREE to access and really there would be no need to pay any real fees to develop better drivers for systems. AMD is one of the big players that has actually been working with the community to help support their cards.
        jwagenet 9y ago
        This is not true: If you increase your target FPS to meet a monitor refresh rate, you must turn down your AA or other graphics settings to compensate when using the same hardware. Going from a 60 Hz to 144 Hz monitor more than doubles the FPS required for Vsync, which requires double the hardware performance to take advantage of the high refresh rate.
        falcolas 9y ago
        If you have 160FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can turn things up. If you have 145FPS on a 144hz monitor, you can't. That's the only point I was trying to make there.
    - wizbright 9y ago
      Even if a game performs better on PC, whose to say it isn't optimized? Some of Vavle's own games have performed better via the Linux build compared to Windows or Mac. It's also super sketchy to not be able to see what's fully happening in one's system.
      - monochromatic 9y ago
        How do you feel about the closed BIOS and Management Engine that underlie everything?
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Frustrated, and I rally against it too. My laptops run coreboot. But the difference between your closed BIOS and your closed OS is that most people actually can choose their OS, whereas fixing the BIOS problem is a much more difficult obstacle.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        mykull 9y ago
        in my case, it makes me feel double-plus un-good. which is why I go to the trouble of killing the ME on any system I can, despite the at-best trivial impact of doing so.
  - mmagin 9y ago
    Please recommend a Linux CAD program that's as easy to use and featureful as Fusion 360.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows? Inevitably people end up with a requirement for some Windows program that trips up users or administrators in the workplace. Some workplaces (e.g. mine) are fully paid-up committed Microsoft shops where everyone has MSDN.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      >PS4 is also a closed ecosystem, far more so than PC gaming on Windows? Baby steps. I don't own a PS4 anyway, but I'm so tired of discussing Windows with people who whine about losing their games that I feel the need to specify an out.
      - gambiting 9y ago
        And I feel a need to point out that you behave like a jerk in this thread and well below the standard HN is known for. If you have a problem with Windows, that's fine, calling people pathetic is not.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        "Just use Linux." "Well, maybe I would, but this program I use frequently is not available on Linux." "So? You shouldn't want to use that anyway." With a sales pitch like this I can't believe the Year of the Linux Desktop hasn't come to fruition yet.
  - Kagerjay 9y ago
    There's a huge range of applications that are only macOS or windows only that are a miles better in everyway. For instance, apple's sketch. You won't find anything like it even on Windows. For instance, windows PC. You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros, powerful 3rd party file explorers like directoryOpus, etc. You can't play video games on it, naturally gamedevelopment is a hassle as well. You can't run CAD programs, etc
    - badsectoracula 9y ago
      > You have a ton of native autohotkey applications for writing macros Note that you can do that with X11 too using tools like xbindkeys, xdotool, xnee, xrebind, wmctrl, etc.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        Well, sure, and DirectX applications could all be written as OpenGL applications instead. But who's going to do that work?
  - Mononokay 9y ago
    Okay, Mr. Stallman.
    - CamperBob2 9y ago
      "Okay, Mr. Stallman, you've successfully forecast everything that's happened in computing over the last few years, and done so literally decades in advance, so thanks for that I guess, but please take off the tinfoil and go away now."
- bsilvereagle 9y ago
  > especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows. I have gotten around this with a virtualized Windows installation for CAD applications. The Windows VM goes online for software activation only. With VFIO, a dedicated graphics card, and an nVME SSD I don't feel any performance degradation. The graphics card and nVME drive are passed directly to the VM. Some simple benchmarks show there is ~3% performance decline in the VM vs booting it native, but I don't "feel" it. Granted, picking VFIO compliant hardware and setting everything up is far outside the ability of the average Windows user.
  - machinesmachine 9y ago
    I'm really surprised it works at all, great job man
    - bsilvereagle 9y ago
      VFIO is the real deal - if you can find the right hardware. Unfortunately, there isn't a master list of VFIO compatible hardware (that I know of). You have to scour reddit or the Red Hat VFIO mailing lists hoping someone has posted the motherboard/processor you're interested in. Once you have hardware, there are lots of resources for pulling it off: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/vfio.txt https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/vfio.txt https://www.redhat.com/archives/vfio-users/ https://www.redhat.com/archives/vfio-users/ https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVMF https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM... https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO/ https://www.reddit.com/r/VFIO/
      - walterbell 9y ago
        Lenovo, Dell or HP business (vPro) desktops will work. Dell T20/T30 is often on sale for under $500.
  - giggles_giggles 9y ago
    What hypervisor are you using to do this?
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  >It's never that simple, especially for professional users and gamers. Those whose applications are only available for Windows. I'm both, and you're definitely wrong. 155 of my 343 steam games have direct native ports. I've just stopped playing stellaris and started playing KSP. I've been a linux gamer for the last three years and it's been a better experience, not worse. I dominate on ballistic overkill because the input lag is noticeably lower on linux. I'm also a software developer, and with the exception of dotnet development, software development is a considerably smoother and more consistant experience on linux. It grates every day to have to use windows at work, and I do half of my work inside a linux VM.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    What about AutoCAD, Inventor, Photoshop, AfterEffects, Lightroom, ...?
    - falcolas 9y ago
      Maya, Sketchbook, Fusion, Visual Studio, DirectX, Microsoft Office, Acrobat, ... Here's one really simple example for you of why this Windows software matters to a very large community of professionals: most accounting work is both taught and done in Excel.
    - Sir_Substance 9y ago
      Autocad/inventor->OpenScad/FreeCad Photoshop->Gimp or just run it with wine Lightroom->Darktable Here's a few other pretty awesome art tools you might want to know about BTW: Krita Blender Inkscape If we're doing "what abouts" though, what about: freely interchangable desktop layouts native docker support a user-friendly terminal an os kernel that is designed to be malware resistant Like seriously buddy, the GUI desktop is now ~40 years old and windows /still/ can't support uninstalling the default desktop and installing your own. Custom launchers are one of the most downloaded android app categories, don't try to tell me people don't want it. But hey, at least windows finally got multiple desktops by cribbing the idea from linux after two decades of unsuccessfully trying to tell their customers that it wasn't really that good a feature. If the best you can say about your operating system is "adobe supports it", which is what it seems like you're saying, then oh dear. Like, I get it, photoshop is pretty darn good. But for realsies, we're in a thread where the title post is about microsoft installing random crap on your computer without permission. This is the same company that is showing ads on your lock screen and start bar[1], has been formally chastised by national governments for it's handling of telemetry[2], autoinstalled updates that bricked peoples laptops[3] and then autoinstalled other updates that put other peoples computers in reboot loops[4]. They're gonna keep doing this stuff. For goodness sake, they incentivised peoples "upgrades" from windows 7 by installing nagware with a deliberately malicious UI[5], and attempting to directly cause professional conflict for sysadmins with stability concerns[6]. You're part of an eternal beta of questionable QA control at the hands of a company that has a documented history of behaving unethically. Do they have to send someone round to your house to kill and eat your cat in front of you before you decide you could maybe dig deep and stoop to learning gimp? [1]https://www.pcworld.com/article/3039827/windows/7-ways-windows-10-pushes-ads-at-you-and-how-to-stop-them.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/3039827/windows/7-ways-windo... [2]http://www.zdnet.com/article/french-authorities-serve-notice-to-microsoft-for-windows-10-privacy-failings/ http://www.zdnet.com/article/french-authorities-serve-notice... [3]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/08/25/windows-10-anniversary-update-keeps-breaking-pcs/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/08/25/windows-10-... [4]http://news.softpedia.com/news/windows-10-fall-creators-update-bug-blocks-the-install-on-some-pcs-518214.shtml http://news.softpedia.com/news/windows-10-fall-creators-upda... [5]https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest-trick-clicking-x-to-dismiss-windows-10-upgrade-doesnt-stop-upgrade-process https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/229040-microsofts-latest... [6]https://www.windowschimp.com/admins-angered-new-windows-10-upgrade-push/ https://www.windowschimp.com/admins-angered-new-windows-10-u...
- makecheck 9y ago
  Yes “but” how do expect open alternatives to become better? Contribute to a project (with a very low bar for “contribute”, anything from “file a bug” to “fix the documentation” to “make artwork”). Yes, some big companies also push Linux forward but individuals who want good alternatives can do something to make those alternatives happen.
  - falcolas 9y ago
    An open source project for external customers (i.e. us) operated by a bunch of unpaid volunteers will never really be able to compete with an application with paid developers, invested users, and the supporting departments. I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good. For a corollary: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/936629310785437696 https://twitter.com/patio11/status/936629310785437696
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      >I'm not saying that open source projects can't get better, that they can't be good, but they will never be as good. Hah, this is rich. Many open source products are far better than their proprietary alternatives, especially developer oriented products (which is natural considering that developers tend to use open source and tend to improve their own tools).
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        On the other hand, when it comes to categories like games, video game console emulators, office productivity applications, document publishing, etc., the open-source alternatives are generally way worse.
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        >games See pretty much every other reply in this thread for my take on this >video game console emulators Wrong, most emulators are open source, support Linux, and work great. >office productivity applications "way worse" is a bit harsh for describing LibreOffice. It works quite well in my experience. >document publishing I don't know what this is supposed to be. LaTeX is pretty good, though.
HenryBemis 9y ago
Sorry Sir_Cmpwn, but that's happening with W10. Windows 8.1 with the 'Windows Firewall Control", classicshell, a strong HOSTS file (someonewhocares.org), and a Firefox with NoScript/ublock/adblock+/etc and you got your privacy control in order. I do agree with the Linux argument you are making, but you cannot swerve 50% of the global Windows users into Linux. It still doesn't have the best UI reputation (although it gets the job done).
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  You can't simultaneously talk about 50% of global Windows users and their struggles with UI and assume they have the foggiest idea how to set up a strong HOSTS file and a carefully secured Firefox installation. How about they just don't use a hostile OS? If you're defending yourself from your own operating system, you've chosen the wrong damn operating system. Also, I don't want to hear the UI argument when KDE Plasma exists. I bet 90% or better of Windows users would be comfortable on Plasma.
  - blibble 9y ago
    > If you're defending yourself from your own operating system, you've chosen the wrong damn operating system. this is exactly 100% dead on the money prior to Windows 10 Microsoft was at worst known for producing unreliable mediocre quality software, but they were trustworthy (at least for the end user) Windows 10 changed everything, at the point you're fighting the company that made the OS to not spy on you, not show you ads, not reboot against your will and not reinstall random crapware you previously removed: it's time to switch
- Bl4ckb0ne 9y ago
  Plasma is basically windows 10 UI, and Cinnamon is windows 7 UI.
- TPPOW0020 9y ago
  As a professional who gets work done with Linux, I disagree. Lots of desktop environments (KDE, XFCE, Cinnamon) offer a UI is just as polished as mac or windows. Lack of suitable software can be a dealbreaker for some professions. There aren't many professional video editing suites, for example. But in companies I've worked at, most workers only need a browser and an office suite to do their jobs. Linux would work for them. I think the real obstacle is training. You have a workforce that's already used to the way windows works. It's easier to hire IT people with windows experience than it is with Linux. Users know how to do their tasks in Microsoft office, and even though Libre office is similar, they might have to learn a few new things.
Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
I'd switch to Linux in the blink of an eye if I didn't have to worry about my games working. WINE is great and all, but it's still not 100% compatible.
- Bl4ckb0ne 9y ago
  How about contributing to make things better
  - da_chicken 9y ago
    Not every user is capable of being a developer for every application they want to use.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      Then donate however many thousands of dollars you were going to spend on Autodesk/etc licenses to Blender, Krita, Gimp, etc. Blender and Krita are competitive with their commercial counterparts and Gimp is getting there.
      - Alupis 9y ago
        I'm a very strong advocate of Open Source Software, and all things Linux as well. I've used Gimp, Inkscape, and others... but sometimes you just need to get work done, and the closed source proprietary application is what you need, I'm sorry to say. Donating thousands of dollars to Gimp today isn't going to put it on par with Photoshop today... I wish it would. Maybe it could be in a few years... but I need to get work done right now. Sometimes you do need a commercial interest behind something to drive it's progress. That doesn't mean it has to be closed and proprietary, but they often are, sadly.
        Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Time moves inexorably forward. Donate today and "a few years" will come.
youseecomrade 9y ago
The majority of people who could use Linux exclusively (only need a browser, don't need Office compatibility, nothing fancy) buy a "just works" Windows laptop or tablet and I bet 99% of them don't even know what Linux is. Even then you get some weird cases like banking software not working on Linux and they ask you to install Windows again. And kids wants to play what their friends are playing, it's hard to break the cycle. Oh you want to play PUBG? Too bad. Some games you might even be able to make it work with some baby sitting but it will drain all your energy and you are not getting paid for the job. If you want Linux to have a chance it needs to play the long game and that won't ever happen. Everything I own except my gaming PC is Linux but it's not even worth trying to convert others. I find pretty immature to suggest "if your job demands Windows, just quit", "just spend 20 hours trying to make this thing that just works in Windows", "you don't need AAA games". I say immature because I was doing this shit a few years ago and I still cringe about it. In my experience trying to teach people about the importance of privacy is mostly futile. What worked was, and I only did this to a close family friend, to show him what I could learn about him just by showing what was stored in AppData and many other folders. Some thumbnails will be forever ingrained in my mind.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  I'm getting sick of this dichotomy. It's trivial to install both. Keep windows 10 on a partition big enough for your games/Netflix/etc., and use Debian/Archlinux/NixOS/whatever for everything else.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Trivial to install both but a real hassle to actually use both.
    - juliangoldsmith 9y ago
      Not really. You reboot your computer, and press a key to pick which one you want.
Feniks 9y ago
Or you can just say "FUCK it" get Enterprise LTSB, spend a few hours tweaking it and never have to worry about anything for 5 years. Yes you're breaking the law but when did that stop anyone?
stagger87 9y ago
I'll switch when all my customers switch.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
emodendroket 9y ago
Thanks for the advice. I will just ask everyone who wrote the software I use to port it.

TwoNineA 9y ago

I set up my brother in-law's new HP laptop he got from Costco and I had to spend over 2 hours removing crap from it. The amount of crapware installed (and a lot of them are MS apps) is unreal.

HenryBemis 9y ago
(Unfortunately) HP has been loading their machines with crapware for about a decade now. :(
- Stranger43 9y ago
  It's not just HP it's just about everything that comes out an retail store without an apple logo on it(unless you count itunes/facetime as unwanted software in which case it's just about everything). If you buy high end laptops from a business partner or directly from the vendor and make sure you get a pro(paid) version of windows things are better but the razor thin margins of the consumer market make it hard to avoid strange and badly designed attempts at price differentiation and/or payola schemes.
  - suby 9y ago
    If anyone wants a Windows laptop without bloatware, I think the best bet is through a Microsoft Store. They sell "signature edition" laptops which are supposed to contain Windows and nothing else. That's if the marketing is to be believed, anyway, I personally have never done this. On another note, I got an XPS 13 from Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed. As far as I could tell, the only extra software on there was some drivers. I realize that the average person isn't going to want a Linux laptop though.
    - AlphaSite 9y ago
      Windows its self installs candy crush and other crap.
- TwoNineA 9y ago
  Why is MS cramming down my throat some 3D Pain thing, Augmented Reality crap and other apps I don't care about? Edit: Oh and Camera app. On a desktop. Without even a webcam. What is the justification for that?

Scramblejams 9y ago

It’s hard to believe that the loss of goodwill is worth whatever revenue Microsoft’s gaining from this, so I have to assume this is them dipping their toe into a strategy that attempts to make them more relevant to users. Maybe a reaction to the Windows app store’s lack of success? Thoughts?

jbigelow76 9y ago
I think it shows how little value Windows is to Microsoft anymore. Office 365 and Azure are where the money is at for the company now. I use Win 10 Enterprise at work so I don't have to worry about any of the Candy Crush or FB malware trash on my PC but no way would I buy a consumer Windows based laptop anymore.
- tjalfi 9y ago
  I use Windows 10 Enterprise at work and our image team had to specifically remove Candy Crush. It’s actually more annoying than that, the semiannual OS updates cause Candy Crush to be reinstalled.
  - paulryanrogers 9y ago
    This is very unprofessional. Sadly iOS suffers a similar fate with Bluetooth.
    - IshKebab 9y ago
      It, reinstalls Bluetooth?
    - urda 9y ago
      > Sadly iOS suffers a similar fate with Bluetooth. What are you talking about?
      - paulryanrogers 9y ago
        Updates re-enable Bluetooth regardless of the user's preference [0]. (Or did until newer versions, I haven't updated one in a while.) [0] http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-is-why-apple-enables-bluetooth-every-time-you-80079149965.html http://finance.yahoo.com/news/this-is-why-apple-enables-blue...

HenryBemis 9y ago

Windows 10 is a cancer. M$ removed the control from the user, and placed it to their money-hungry baboons. It was clear since 8 and 8.1 that M$ will go for the "app model", where you are no longer the administrator on your own machine 'for your own protection'. I hope they come around, or they will just lose all their tech-savy customers. I guess it's their turn to rip off their customers private-date/lives, just as Google does for some years now with Android. I do see the benefits though for some users, but in my book, the privacy violation is worse than the benefits.

Kagerjay 9y ago
The thing I hate the most about windows 10 is lots of its default settings out of the box, whenever I have to set up a new PC for a family member. That, and windows 10 likes to automatically update itself whenever it wants. Whenever I installed a new windows 7 PC, it was just plug and play really. When I have to install a new windows 10 PC, I have a significantly longer list of items that I do to it (delete cortana, enable search to only work locally, local user only (no xbox or microsoft login), remove forced updates, remove task panels, delete all PUPware that comes with it, etc), do a couple of registry edits, etc. Lastly, privacy. No such thing as privacy in windows 10, the whole OS is basically spyware. The only thing I like about windows 10 over its previous versions is the system refresh, but thats about it
stevecalifornia 9y ago
"M$" Instantly ignored.
- stinos 9y ago
  I get your point, and I do get the OP's. But in all fairness, Google/FB/... are just lucky they don't have an 's' in their name because the '$' applies to all of them. Hmm, maybe the 'e' in Apple could be turned into the euro sign :]
- Karunamon 9y ago
  It's definitely a blast from the internet commenting past, but given their recent user-hostile design decisions which can't be justified by anything other than abject greed at my expense, I think it's about ready for a comeback...

rbobby 9y ago

It's going to be odd if Win10 gets labeled as PUP (potentially unwanted program) by antivirus software.

gruez 9y ago
which is going to happen... never. unless that said antivirus wants to commit market suicide by pissing off every user.
- mtgx 9y ago
  True. But it could make for a pretty funny April Fools' joke (-in disguise).
AlexandrB 9y ago
That would only make sense if the antivirus software flagged itself as PUP first.
emodendroket 9y ago
It's hard to see what the action the program takes for you in that case. Formatting your hard drive?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

GirlsCanCode 9y ago

I'm running "Pro" and I'm not seeing this.

ThoAppelsin 9y ago

This isn't really an issue that goes beyond your first 1 hour on your new Windows 10 computer. You delete them, and then they are gone forever. They do not re-install themselves, they only come with a new user account. They were annoying to me, only when I had installed the Windows 10 for the very first time, 2 years ago. I had several Windows 10 re-installations since then, and it really isn't worth nagging about them for the 30-45 seconds they steal from you as you remove them. Besides, my housemate actually liked and kept some of them on his account. It probably really just does increase the overall customer experience.

mikhailt 9y ago
Except on two separate machines, a Windows update reinstalled them for me. MS did said it was a bug but it happened a few times after that for me.
- ThoAppelsin 9y ago
  I think I also may have had some ads back with a major update (e.g. Creators, Fall Creators), but I don't remember having them back ever with the normal updates. In any case, it really is just a breeze to remove UWP apps, and they leave no trace either, so I cannot rationalize how it can be this so annoying to anyone.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    That's right, only the major updates reinstall these apps (and introduce new ones).
  - suby 9y ago
    The ad issue is separate to me. They keep adding ads to more and more places in Windows 10, and each location has a different toggle to turn on / off. I turned off all advertising options in Windows 10 when I first installed, only to be greeted by another ad months later which they had added with a newly downloaded update. The toggles aren't even centralized, you have to hunt them down in different menus. I have a hard time believing this wasn't done on purpose.

Animats 9y ago

And that's why my one remaining Windows machine runs Windows 7.

djaychela 9y ago
Me too. I have a perfectly functional music studio computer that's dual-booting Win7 on both partitions - one for more general use and making YouTube videos, and the other for making music. I've had quite a few 'why aren't you running Win10' comments... I have nothing to gain and a lot to lose - time if nothing else. I hate the Win10 UI, bloatware and changing things without your consent, and Win7 works perfectly for me at the moment.
- tim333 9y ago
  Yeah I 'upgraded' to 10 then 'downgraded' back to 7. I've yet to regret going back.

aphextron 9y ago

To anyone wondering, all of that crap can be removed with PowerShell: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/easily-remove-bloatware-windows-10/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/easily-remove-bloatware-window...

edsouza 9y ago
I have done that before, but on the first anniversary update, they all come back. I will try it again, and wait for the next anniversary update to see if they come back again.
- slumberlust 9y ago
  Spoiler: They will come back.

beached_whale 9y ago

I use Windows when I have to now. I used to use Visual Studio as it is really good. But since Windows 8 and more so Windows 10 they have started taking from me. I paid for Windows 10 Pro, but I am subjected to the task of repeatedly removing software, or adverts for software, that I explicitly said remove. This is repeated when major updates go through. Plus the extra data and processing to get a system that isn't using my resources for tasks that I did not ask it too. It is my computer, not theirs. So I dual boot and 99% of the time sit in Kubuntu land and my computer is fast, responsive, and generally only doing what I ask it too. As it should be. Microsoft found a way to take an i7-7500 with 32GB of ram and make it feel slow on a fast OS. Windows 10 can be fast.

itwy 9y ago
Your last sentence doesn't make any sense.
- preordained 9y ago
  60% of the time, it makes sense every time
- beached_whale 9y ago
  Windows 10 would be fast if it wasn't busy doing tasks I didn't ask it to.
Maert 9y ago
What am I missing? I have Windows 10 Pro on 2 computers I use daily, I have no crap games auto installing, I have no restarts other than when I select to, my computer never slows down "because windows things". What are you guys experiencing that I am not?

xeromal 9y ago

I'd recommend running Windows Server 2016 or Windows 10 LTSB to avoid the entire mess. I run WS 2016 for my dev machine and I haven't had any issues and I don't have to deal with the damned Windows Store.

Groxx 9y ago
Any problems with Server / LTSB for gaming? (honest question - that's the sole reason I have windows anything and I'd be thrilled to get rid of all the absolute nonsense they've been throwing at me)
- dimensi0nal 9y ago
  LTSB is fine, but some things will refuse to run on Server.
- xeromal 9y ago
  I run server 2016 and I can run all my dev tools. VS Code, VS 20x, SSMS, MySQL, PostGres, Xamarin. On top of that, I can run Rome 2 Total War which is not a simple game. It runs great.
rjbwork 9y ago
Isn't that a bit expensive?
- mcbits 9y ago
  Not sure about this, but you may be able to run the 180-day trial as much as you want, as long as you're willing to reinstall every 180 days. I installed the 2008 and 2012 trials several times over the years and got the full trial each time, but I haven't tried it back-to-back after expiration.
  - GordonS 9y ago
    I think you'd be on shaky legal ground there. In any case, it's a major hassle to reinstall your OS

keithnz 9y ago

It's a tricky problem. I think tech people are fringe. For me, I would want to disable it all. But if people can turn it off then it doesn't let microsoft improve and adapt. In concept, I kind of like the idea the OS could anticipate the things I need. It's how we imagine futuristic computer systems. It's a bit different from the traditional OS where you are the master over everything. I'm not sure many on HN are going to like this thing, but I would think MS gets to see the stats and has better view of how well they are doing. Percentage wise it might be working out pretty good, however, each percentage point they piss off ends up being a lot of people and if the fringe of tech people are in that 1% that can end up in a lot of angry blogs.

Retra 9y ago
I would naively expect that Microsoft's market share is too large for any real adapting to occur. They've made my machines significantly worse enough times that I've stopped using their OSs completely, and since then I just hear more of the same. They can get away with making things worse, so why shouldn't they?
tmorton 9y ago
boggle What? NO. Just no. This doesn't "anticipate the things I need". It doesn't "anticipate" anything. It's not "the things I need", it's whatever MS decides to promote. There's a vaguely similar feature, that would be vaguely defensible - but this isn't it. This is malware, plain and simple.
- titanix2 9y ago
  Totally agree. My computers are my things and should be under my control only. That’s why I’m wary of Win 10 which forces system replacement, install softwares without consent, display advertisements, can preload UWP apps in memory, etc. All this things might be an acceptable comprise on mobile for some people (which include myself) but is a big no go on anything desktop or server class. My harware is not here to be part of someone else botnet. If MS wants my money, let’s make good product without subscription and let me pay for it. I would be glad to pay 20 to 50€ for Visual Studio if it encourages user friendly business practices.

duncan_bayne 9y ago

Many (most?) people on Hacker News might be too young to remember the Halloween Documents. They were internal Microsoft documents describing their proposed strategy for dealing with competition from then-new Free Software alternatives: http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/ http://www.catb.org/esr/halloween/ If you want to understand why Microsoft is acting the way they are, read those documents. It's not that I think they are still executing the strategies and tactics spelled out therein. Quite the contrary; Microsoft realises they've lost the OS war to Linux (on one front) and OSX (on the other). The point is how astonishingly user-hostile those memos are. They lay out a strategy for competing with Free Software that has almost nothing to do with their users' needs and wants. Instead, the obvious assumption is that their users will be sacrificed to their (Microsoft's) strategic goals. That's not to say that individual Microsoft teams don't produce excellent, user-centric software (two I can think of in my own experience are Excel and Visual Studio). But the executive leadership, and company culture as a whole, seems to care little about the people who actually use their products. This was clearly true back in the 90s, and is clearly true now. In the 90s it was 'embrace and extend', in the 2010s it's 'track and advertise'.

BinaryIdiot 9y ago
Those memos are over 20 years old. You can't point to something 20 years old and say "see, they did it before therefore that's what's happening today". I'm not a fan of what they're doing with some of the Windows 10 defaults. But you gotta be crazy to not see the user improvements they've done in so many other areas. They are a very, very different company than they were back then. I'm not saying that excuses anything but you're drawing false equivalences using a 2 decades old set of memos to try and back it.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  The underlying theme is _exactly_ the same: they will chuck their users under the bus for what they see as important strategic goals. It was true 20 years ago, and everything I can see suggests it's still true today. This is part of the reason I gave up developing for Windows and .NET after around a decade of doing it. I prefer to work on a stack with which I'm at least partially values-aligned. (Same reason I abandoned Linux for FreeBSD, actually).

hokkos 9y ago

Windows has a new feature called "Controlled Folder Access", it is a security mecanism that protect from ransomware. It is a great idea, but the implementation is annoying. It block write access to selected directories, so lot of software fail to add a link to the desktop, or add files in the Documents folder. It should have protect agains delete not new file creation. Also the default Defender antivirus is so slow, it make the installation of software package 2 or 3 slower. https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10s-controlled-folder-access-anti-ransomware-feature-is-now-live/ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/windows-10s-...

emodendroket 9y ago
To protect from ransomware you need to at least prevent modification of existing files.
- Sylos 9y ago
  Which he did not argue against. He said that creating new files should still be possible.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Well he only mentions delete. Do the Windows permissions actually make a meaningful distinction between create and modify? I think that might have been difficult to do without completely rewriting a lot of stuff.
GordonS 9y ago
> Also the default Defender antivirus is so slow Hah! You must not have used Mcafee Enterprise. I recently moved to Defender and the difference is startling - my laptop fans literally never stopped whining with Mcafee, as it was constantly gobbling CPU. With Defender, it remains silent, and CPU usage is low. I've used other AV systems too (e.g. Avira), and for sure they're better than Mcafee, but I'm impressed with Defender. Don't see any reason for me to use anything else.

nkrisc 9y ago

I've considered upgrading to Windows 10 from time to time but then I read something like this. Is there a way to completely/permanently neuter the Windows App store and functions like the one mentioned here?

15charlimit 9y ago
I believe the LTSB Enterprise edition physically does not contain the "windows app store", cortana, and all the other garbage that gets in the way of a normally functioning computer.
Chardok 9y ago
Unfortunately any workaround we find has been "broken" with the subsequent Windows update, meaning Microsoft is actively working against any fixes for it. I would love to be proven wrong, but the only way I know for sure is upgrading to the Enterprise or education editions.
dabockster 9y ago
I've seen an option to do just this in WPD. https://getwpd.com/ https://getwpd.com/ I don't know how effective it is, though.

bondolo 9y ago

I have never used Windows 10 nor made significant use of any Windows version since Windows XP. Nonetheless my parents asked me to look at some issues they were having with their laptops. The trend of increasing clutter that has plagued Windows since XP seems to have accelerated. The user experience appears to have been designed by a hoarder. I spent a significant amount of time asking "Do you know what this is? Do you use it?" to be able to remove some of the many goo-gahs that had been helpfully installed by either Windows or one of their devices. It made me sad that my parents just accepted that this was how computers are because they were unaware that the crap-strewn-everywhere experience was a deliberate choice for the Windows ecosystem.

thirdsun 9y ago
To be fair, I'm not sure if Windows alone is to blame in this case. If you're not familiar with Windows and try to clean a PC that isn't yours, it's probably hard to tell what was user installed, what was pre-installed by the manufacturers (they love to include bloatware and unnecessary "tools") and what actually came with Windows. It's very easy for unaware users to install all sorts of crap and they never know where it came from or what it does - that's basically every PC of a non-tech-savvy user ever.

Timothycquinn 9y ago

Had similar experience with not being able to disable the windows store for my kids accounts. It was simply not possible and I followed all the Microsoft recommended procedures and external suggested ones to no avail. I just gave up and stopped using Windows for my family computer and spun back up an older mac Mini. This kind of lock in is very bad for the ecosystem and is a security nightmare. I don't know if I will ever use consumer grade windows for my personal computers any longer.

sofaofthedamned 9y ago

For the last 15 years or so i've earned my money doing Linux stuff. Before then I was doing VB/.NET/SQL Server etc. January 2016 I worked at a secure facility that wanted an entire system doing malware analysis. The bare servers were running Linux, but some of the software used Windows so there were Windows VMs there. Usual KVM stuff. Bear in mind this is a closed system and the Windows VMs were ephemeral, i.e. had to be discarded and reset after each malware run where we did static code analysis etc. So we used the Professional (hah) version, with AutoUnattend.xml or whatever it was to automatically reset them. This worked fine until after a certain point with WSUS - we obviously applied security updates - where the VMs wouldn't boot. Turns out that a point in Windows 10's life they decided you needed a better version of Windows to be able to do the equivalent of a preseed or kickstart. 4 months of work disappeared, plus the additional licence cost; need to run a domain etc etc. Luckily I left soon after but trust me - at any future role I will look at every possibility before Windows. I moved a subsequent client (large international appliance manufacturer that you've heard of) to Linux servers precisely because of this sort of shit. Windows is done, it's just a case of when it disappears. This is exactly why Microsoft are pushing Azure and Office - they know the outcome, they're just squeezing the pips until it happens.

EpicEng 9y ago
>Windows is done Your use case is very niche compared to how MS makes most of its money on Windows licenses. Windows isn't going anywhere until it's no longer pre-loaded on every machine, enterprise customers stop buying it completely, and Linux is much more user friendly on the desktop. I don't disagree with anything else you said, admin'ing windows boxes is a terrible experience.
- sofaofthedamned 9y ago
  How the loving fuck can you expect to change the terms of engagement with your OS after it's released and not expect to lose business? I know for a fact the malware analysis software we used are now planning a Linux version. I've literally persuaded a multinational to not continue using .net and Windows servers because of my argument that it's not sustainable. They alone are tens of thousands of Windows licenses that may go to Red Hat or even Centos or Ubuntu. Windows has already started to go - my son doesn't know how to use it, all he's used is Google Docs or an iPhone / iPad. There is no love for Windows, only halcyon remembrances from the likes of myself who remembered the golden days of MSDN subscriptions. There is literally not a startup on the planet who will decide 'fuck it, we'll use a windows domain and Office instead of o365 or Google Apps.

vbezhenar 9y ago

Those articles are funny because for me all previous Windows versions were unusable, but I've found Windows 10 just the best OS. I don't have Facebook preinstalled and even if it was, I couldn't care less about it. There are bazillions of DLLs and other stuff preinstalled, what's the deal with one HTML page that I don't even run. I value other things, real usability improvements (for example virtual desktops are much better than macOS ones) and technical advancements (Linux subsystem, hyper-v, PowerShell).

reaperducer 9y ago
>what's the deal with one HTML page that I don't even run You sound like I spammer I once knew. He would always say things like "What's the big deal with one e-mail that you're not going to read anyway. Just delete it." The mail icon in his Mac's dock showed over 29,000 unread messages. Spam just didn't bother him the way Windows popping up ads for Facebook doesn't bother you.
- vbezhenar 9y ago
  One might say "what's the big deal to buy new Mac if you want more RAM, paying premium for bad hardware". Another might say "What's the big deal not to play OverWatch with your friends and having unusable hibernate". I might say "what's the deal with those ads I can remove within a minute", yes. It's all about compromises. I'd like to have a perfect OS, but I have to choose between available alternatives.
Sylos 9y ago
I'm not sure how you would create a worse implementation of virtual desktops than Windows 10 has them: - No indication of other workspaces existing. - No indication of what applications are in those other workspaces. - The keyboard shortcut for walking through desktops requires two hands (and in typical Windows fashion cannot be rebound). I'm not familiar with macOS' implementation, so if you actually think that it's worse, then I would like to know how. Also should be said, though, that you can replace the window manager on macOS, which should allow you to get most of the features of an actually good implementation of virtual desktops. I'm not aware of a way to do that on Windows.

garganzol 9y ago

Never happened to me. I use a free tool called "Spybot Anti-Beacon for Windows 10" https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ https://www.safer-networking.org/spybot-anti-beacon/ on ALL machines I have. Cannot recommend it enough.

ulkesh 9y ago

Hey Microsoft, also stop rebooting without asking. In fact, just stop automatically doing anything and let me choose to do it myself. Be more like Linux.

Tijdreiziger 9y ago
This doesn't work for a majority of Windows users, because when given the choice, they will never reboot.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  So what? It's not Microsoft's job to maintain the OS, it's the user's job.
- ulkesh 9y ago
  Which is how it should be. Microsoft should design their OS to not require reboots for updates. The only time I ever have to reboot my Linux box is for a kernel update — that’s it.

expertentipp 9y ago

Now we won’t because your computer belongs to us. psssst have you heard about our new programming language TypeScript? Just adopt it, this time it will work out perfectly between us.

mixmastamyk 9y ago

I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole a product from a company that that thinks this is acceptable.

derrikcurran 9y ago

There are so many accounts of Windows 10 being installed, (re)installing apps, adding tiles that were previously removed, etc. without permission... but none of it has ever happened to me and I don't understand why. It's bewildering. Maybe it's because I have Windows 10 Pro instead of Home? The only thing I've seen is that it's pretty aggressive about badgering me to restart for an update (but doesn't restart until I say it can).

zeta0134 9y ago
I don't know how much truth there is to this, and I'll check with my personal machines when I get home (I run Linux at work) but when I worked in a retail space, the apps that were pre-loaded varied based on the OEM. Dell got a set, Toshiba got a different set, Lenovo got a different set, etc. Sometimes it varied based on the particular line, like HP would include a different set of games on their laptops that had touchscreen devices, etc. I'm not 100% confident on this and I haven't worked in Retail for a couple of years thankfully, but I suspect strongly that the apps that are installed are pushed not by Microsoft, but by the OEM in their recovery image. I suspect thus that if you buy a standalone version of Windows 10, and clean install the machine with nothing else on the hard drive, that you won't get those apps pre-installed. But buy a computer with Windows 10 preloaded, and the sky's the limit, the OEM pushes what they want, and Microsoft makes it difficult to opt out. I'd love someone else to weigh in on this, because I've been distanced from the situation for a while. But no matter how you slice it, users are getting increasingly frustrated, and I think it's a terrible business strategy for Microsoft. They've ruined any potential trust I might have had for their app store before it had a chance to even take off, and I'm not sure they'll be able to recover. If anything, I've got my eyes on Google, who stand positioned to completely shake up the personal computer space with Chrome OS and its budding Android apps support. It'll be interesting to see how the space unfolds.
valtism 9y ago
I can personally attest to this happening. Candy Crush kept popping back up, completely installed after I removed it. I'm sure I didn't accidentally click any dialogue boxes popping up asking for it to be installed. I've only recently come back to Windows from MacOS for work, and this (along with the invasive tracking that doesn't turn off even if you turn the settings off) floored me.

hello_asdf 9y ago

Is there a list of domains that Microsoft is using to download these apps from? I can't find one by Googling.

x3sphere 9y ago

I only run Windows inside a VM now. The main reason I didn't switch to Linux sooner was because of games, but GPU passthrough works well enough now that I can dedicate my main GPU to a VM and get close to native performance (within 3-5%). Currently I have a Vega 64 configured for passthrough on a Threadripper 1950X system and it runs great. It's much more convenient than dual booting.

Qerub 9y ago
I find this solution interesting. What virtualization software do you use? In what way to do you expose input devices to the VM?

remir 9y ago

I whish ReactOS was mature enough that you could run every win32 programs and games in it perfectly.

sandov 9y ago

Hey, shit store: stop selling shit.