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NSA Deletes “Honesty” and “Openness” from Core Values
- dundercoder 9y agoMitigating hippcracy I see.
- Y_Y 9y agoAs if "core values" meant anything for colossal organisations.
- xkcd-sucks 9y agoThey mean "things we've been caught (not) doing before"
- Ntrails 9y ago> Enron intends to conduct itself in accord with four [capital-V ]Values: Respect, Integrity, Communication and Excellence.
- dictum 9y ago> Respect, Integrity, Communication and Excellence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omert%C3%A0 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omert%C3%A0
- raverbashing 9y agoAmazingly they went against all 4 at the same time
- YetAnotherNick 9y agoThey are excellent in integrating respect in communication. Fortune named Enron "America's Most Innovative Company" for six consecutive years.
- jsjohnst 9y agoResponse I got from telling someone they were violating the core values “core values are what you strive to do, not necessarily what you are always doing”. I disagreed and still disagree, but it is maybe what more than just that one person thinks.
- rusk 9y agoI would have thought "core values are always something you're striving to do" - accepting human fallibility it's acceptable to not always live up to these but it doesn't excuse violating them as a matter of policy.
- luxpsycho 9y agoIronically taking a step towards 'honesty'.
- mtgx 9y agoOne last time. > Since at least May 2016, the surveillance agency had featured honesty as the first of four “core values” listed on NSA.gov, alongside “respect for the law,” “integrity,” and “transparency.” The agency vowed on the site to “be truthful with each other.” Also, I'm thinking they should probably remove all of these, if they were truly honest with us. Respect for the law? Come on. They've been constantly misinterpreting what the surveillance laws actually allow them to do. And there's certainly no respect for the Constitution, because I don't think the Fourth Amendment means much to them anymore - even to the FBI, considering they can now get Americans's communications content without a warrant.
- zeristor 9y agoLogically they only have to remove "honesty"
- gt_ 9y agoIs “honest” even enough or is the proper claim “literally honest”?
- logfromblammo 9y agoLogically, if they removed "honesty" from their core values, there would be no need to delete it from their statement of core values.
- jjoonathan 9y agoI feel like removing it completely would fail to capture the partial truth. Perhaps replace "respect for law" with "respect for authority"?
- brokenmachine 9y ago
- Clubber 9y agoWell, they weren't using them anyway.
- pweissbrod 9y ago> In response to questions from The Intercept on Tuesday, the NSA played down the alterations. Thomas Groves, a spokesperson for the agency, said: “It’s nothing more than a website update, that’s all it is.” ^^ Updating the wordage on the website was a task placed on the queue of a website administrator which was requested by the manager as a takeaway from an internal meeting reviewing core values. This explanation is nowhere near acceptable to me as a taxpayer. I'd love to see the reporter push for a more lucid explanation than this.
- krisives 9y agoDoubt you will find many such reporters in America remaining
- nraynaud 9y agoThe journalist reporting it is French, his boss lives in Brasil.
- pwaivers 9y agoThere are lots of great reporters in the USA with integrity. I am sad to see this general sentiment that quality journalism is dead.
- krisives 9y agoAny good names? A lot of them get a big hit then disappear or become complacent in “news journalism”
- krisives 9y agoSeems lame to downvote and move on - you said yourself there are lots of great reporters I'm interested in any of them!
- thg 9y agoCan't downvote replies to ones own comment. Your comment was downvoted by others due to the "A lot of them get a big hit then disappear or become complacent in “news journalism”" remark and your accusing comment above is just inviting further downvoting.
- tw1010 9y agoThose words are associated to non-costly virtue signalling anyway, so who cares. The NSA can't win. If they let them stay, they're accused of lying, if the remove it, they get this response. I'm kind of neutral on the issue, but I do get bothered with societal dynamics where no matter what an actor does, they lose.
- acct1771 9y agoThat's what happens when an actor is, by definition, in opposition of the very fiber of an organization (the US). Read Amendment IV, and tell me how they fit in.
- altcognito 9y agoSeriously? They do a lot more than collecting information on private individuals. If you spent just 15 minutes researching those things honestly, you would find they have a VERY important job to do.
- Someone1234 9y agoProblem is one part of their mission (protecting US infrastructure) often conflicts with another (foreign intelligence gathering). If you patch a Cisco edge router, both friends and enemies benefit. Honestly the NSA should be broken up into two organisations, one geared towards defense and another offense. Or just merge the foreign intelligence gathering parts into the CIA.
- gizmo385 9y ago> two organisations, one geared towards defense and another offense Oftentimes, the best defense is a good offense. Or vice versa. You can't realistically separate one from the other.
- ataturk 9y agoInteresting that this came up today given the rumors about an internal "civil war" going on in the CIA, NSA, and FBI. It's hard to know what the truth is, but what I know is that these agencies have way, way too much power over our lives and if we were smart we would shut them down and start over. Otherwise, we're looking at a US Stasi, complete with "the disappeared" as has happened in every third world country and even in Europe (Stasi, hey). Whether you are a D, R, or anything else, you have to appreciate how dangerous these organizations have become. Saddest of all, it may already be too late to roll any of it back. And if we find out that Marxists (or "globalist" or whatever) infiltrated these agencies and were selling secrets to adversaries, the bad actors should get the same treatment as the Rosenbergs as a message to anyone else who would sell out our country and its citizens.
- spicymaki 9y agoThe NSA is being honest about not being honest and open about not being open. Deception is the core value.
- chickenthief 9y ago:) but now someone who is really honest cannot even raise a finger.
- brndnmtthws 9y agoFortunately these government agencies are mostly corrupt, dysfunctional, and unable to recruit talent, so we probably don't have much to worry about.
- throwaway76025 9y agoAny objective source for your claims? If your basis is the attitude for such agencies here on hacker news, it’s understandable why you might believe those to be true, but they aren’t.
- brndnmtthws 9y agoI've worked directly with people in the IC, and I have friends who've worked (or currently work) at various government agencies.
- throwaway76025 9y agoDid they convey those summaries to you? If so, is it accurate to say that shtf post-Snowden, and hasn’t recovered? You could be right, so I take it back, but I’ve heard there is some degree of strife and paranoia, but not general chaos as may be perceived.
- brndnmtthws 9y agoIt's mostly anecdotes and personal experience. I think that data on salaries, etc, is mostly public too, so you can probably see for yourself that they aren't competitive with SV or Wall St.
- throwaway76025 9y agoDiscussed here recently, there’s a path from public to private sector that does serve the need to retain talent, to some degree. Also, to say they are mostly corrupt or incompetent seems possibly too much of a broad stroke that is based on anecdotes. I don’t believe Snowden, for instance, ever suggested either of those are true — did he? Finally, if this is your assessment, your standard may be unusually high. Maybe your peers, many not quite as good as you, are actually quite skilled? Just a hunch, could be wrong.
- frogpelt 9y agoThey added 'Transparency'. 2010 Values: https://cryptome.org/2013/08/nsa-strategy-values.htm https://cryptome.org/2013/08/nsa-strategy-values.htm 2018 Values: https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission-values/ https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission-values/
- gamesbrainiac 9y agoSurprisingly, they are being honest and open about not being honest and open.
- YCode 9y agoWhile ironic, if you pay any attention to mission and vision statements in general for government/military organizations it's quite commonplace for such statements to change in opaque and confusing ways, especially so after any change in leadership. Most of the time it isn't some dark conspiracy but rather someone with enough stars on their shoulder said "Why is this even in the mission statement? Every organization should do that so it's implied, what the mission statement really needs is..."
- iambateman 9y agoI, as a taxpayer, pay the NSA to be effective in defending national interests, to act with integrity, and to submit themselves to the oversight of my representatives in Congress. I have no expectation that they will be honest or open with me. Being closed is integral to their work. However they damn well better submit to oversight and respect my constitutional rights as a citizen.
- volkk 9y agoSort of a catch 22 there, right? You expect integrity, but without honesty/openness, how do you hold them to it?
- dsjoerg 9y agoYou elect representatives and executives who are given security clearances and the right to great transparency and openness. When or if those elected officials are found to have abused the public trust, you punish them, their associates and their successors at the ballot box and in the court of public opinion. It's not a great process but I don't see a better way for a democracy to have an internationally competitive intelligence apparatus. And without such an apparatus we are exposed to attacks on our democratic integrity, military effectiveness, deliberative privacy and much more.
- vthallam 9y agoThat'd work in an ideal world, not here. In a 2 party system which are increasingly polarizing you'd have the pressure to stick to the party line.
- drusepth 9y agoEven in our current world, some issues' importance outweighs sticking to the party line. Luckily, we have more than two parties to vote for, so it's not quite as black and white as that.
- 9y ago
- meri_dian 9y agoWhy should they be honest and open? Sometimes complete honesty and openness is counterproductive to a purpose or a mission. Are you always honest? With your friends and family? With your colleagues? With your employer? If you aren't, is it because you want to do harm, or because complete honesty would actually be harmful and unnecessary for both parties? As this is the case for individuals, it is also the case for groups of people and institutions.
- abpavel 9y agoWell, at least they're honest and open about that
- 34b907j 9y agoTheir core values had roughly as much meaning as Google's "don't be evil" anyway.
- jrochkind1 9y agoIronically, the new document is now more honest, if not more open.
- MechEStudent 9y ago...how well do we use our freedom to choose the illusions we create? -Timbuk 3 Oscar Wilde says: Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth. Does the soul change? It is a vast organization with vast bureaucratic momentum and organizational inertia. Can leadership change those? Not even a little. Intel can't change. Emerson can't change. And they have huger and more existential force pushing for change against a smaller mass. Is the soul any different today than yesterday? Nope. In ten years you can ask again, and the answer might be maybe. So the question behind the question is "what is the real soul of the NSA?". Look at their deeds. Words and actions over time tell truth. Look at the trend of their deeds over time.
- HiddenDaath 9y agoSounds sane, at least they are adjusting their pages to reflect their situation, unlike so many despotic nations that lie through their teeth on daily basis. Also, am I only one in the tech community that doesn't have a problem with the NSA? I mean if they can hack me then let them, that'd be fun to analyze post-mortem. I'd be extremely happy if I had organization as powerful as NSA dedicated to protecting my safety while trying to mess with my privacy. You Americans need to get some perspective, no offense.
- strictnein 9y agoWhat an amazing story. A web page was updated and The Intercept is on it!
- donarb 9y agoIf only the Intercept would be honest and open about the Russia investigation we're facing in this country.
- yters 9y agoA lot of complaints against three letter agencies, who have elected officials with oversight and only hire from American citizens. Few complaints against Microgoogfacebook to whom we give all our most private electronic correspondence, have no oversight, and hire many foreign nationals who have little stake in whether the companies abuse the info they've been given. This strikes me as a bit odd.
- wambotron 9y agoYou choose to give your data to Microsoft/Google/Facebook/whatever other private company you're complaining about. There is no agreement to give things to the NSA.
- Zhyl 9y agoNot in the real sense of 'choose'. I use a computer. I have to use Windows to access certain common or industry standard software packages. I have friends. I have to use Facebook or miss out on events or similar. Alternatively, I have to put more effort into bridging the gap. Facebook also build a shadow profile on me whether I use their services or not. I search the web with a non-google search engine, I have moved my email to a non-gmail service, my browser is not google, my phone is not Android. Yet Google will still collect data about me for advertising purposes. The fact that they have no official oversight should be terrifying.
- bzbarsky 9y ago> You choose to give your data to Microsoft/Google/Facebook If only that were so. Facebook gathers data on you whether you give it to them or not. See https://www.dailydot.com/news/facebook-shadow-profiles-privacy-faq/ https://www.dailydot.com/news/facebook-shadow-profiles-priva... for example, but this is generally well-known. As far as I know Google likewise gathers all sorts of information without asking for it, just from their ads and analytics running on various websites. Microsoft is a slightly different story.
- yters 9y agoJust because it is voluntary does not mean the possibility of abuse is lower. It is higher since people consider the implications less.
- dash_shi 9y agoAren't they just being honest by doing that?
- cmurf 9y agoI see this as just another way the administration wants to demoralize public service employees, and increase distrust by the public in those institutions. Far more troubling than some values changes, is the administration wants to have a spy slush fund of its own that is not at all subject to Congressional oversight. https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/shutdown/card/1516648991 https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/shutdown/card/1516648991
- dmix 9y agoNotably they also added this line, to join in on the 'inclusive' and 'diversity' corporatespeak trend: > Respect for People - We are committed to ensuring that all NSA personnel are respected, included and valued for their diverse backgrounds, experiences, skills and contributions to our mission and culture.
- Consultant32452 9y agoSure, we don't value honesty, but look at all these ni--bla-frican Americans we have on our team!
- rayvd 9y agoIntegrity and Transparency are listed. Non-story, move along.
- lobo_tuerto 9y agoAt least they are being honest about it... ;)
- throwfast1 9y ago>Respect for People - We are committed to ensuring that all NSA personnel are respected, included and valued for their diverse backgrounds, experiences, skills and contributions to our mission and culture. All NSA personnel are respected, anyone else having a weird feeling reading that that it does not say all persons or something that says they respect everyone?