18 ms·

CIA rendition flights from rustic North Carolina called to account by citizens

306 points by pera 9y ago

christiand992 9y ago
This of course will get little traction on a site where all of the 'thought leaders' are employed or bribed by the same intelligence agencies these people have a problem with. #edit flag away you echo-chamber loving fools of anti-intellectualism. I bet more people register to view my flagged comment than do to engage in the farce of a comment board you Marxist fools run.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  What a nonsense.
  - christiand992 9y ago
    > What a nonsense. I'm sorry? Did you have something to add, or did your frantic mashing of the oversocialized button get in the way of your argument (and grammar)?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > on a site where all of the 'thought leaders' are employed or bribed by the same intelligence agencies these people have a problem with. [Checks leaderboard; I'm still there at #27] Clearly, there has been an oversight. The intelligence officials responsible for employment and bribes should contact me at their earliest convenience to correct this.
  - a_t48 9y ago
    That's just what a CIA shill would say!
  - christiand992 9y ago
    How pedantic of you. #27 places you well outside the bounds, sorry.
  - linkmotif 9y ago
    This is how I feel about being Jewish. I’m still waiting for the International Zionist Elders or Cabal or something to give me a shout. But no, nothing after all these years :(
    - christiand992 9y ago
      Even evil elites understand the need to be able to have a good-faith conversation. You're too used to addressing the internet karma as opposed to the individual. Yours is a meta-conversation held by meta-people. Unsuitable for anything other than being a tool for the elite. Carry on.
landonxjames 9y ago
Oh wow this is shocking, I grew up less than 10 minutes from this airport and had no idea the CIA was using it.
IIAOPSW 9y ago
That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.
- knz 9y ago
  > We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Much of the country is purple not red and blue - if you can have a respectful conversation with someone you can find common ground on these issues. And show up on election day. The First Amendment exists for a reason - "we get the government we deserve" applies to those of us who chose to stay informed as well if we don't respond to the challenges of the day.
  - IIAOPSW 9y ago
    >So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.
    - knz 9y ago
      Yes, very much so with some individuals. I have friends and family across the political spectrum and we regularly talk about the issues of the day (always in person, social media is a horrible platform for this). I've had success educating individuals about issues like net neutrality, gun rights, gay marriage, climate change, and environmental regulation to the point that they completely changed their views to at least neutral. They've changed my views on issues as well. I've also talked people out of supporting outrageous statements or made them question their own beliefs (rural relatives in South Dakota who loved talking about their lack of income tax now openly question why SD gets so much more government tax money than neighbouring MN etc). That said, the point isn't to be "win", it's to have a dialogue, share ideas, and break out of the "us vs them" mentality.
maxxxxx 9y ago
The value systems of the people running this must be severely distorted. Can't torture at home so let's fly people to some dictatorship to get it done there. I guess it's the same mindset that caused a democratically elected president in Iran to be overthrown and replaced by a dictator in order to save freedom and democracy.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  It is the same value system that created Guantanamo Bay Prison.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    Yep. Forgot to mention that.
  - InclinedPlane 9y ago
    And the Phoenix Program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program
- matte_black 9y ago
  I wouldn’t say it’s their value system, rather it’s a result of the enormous pressure they face. Torture should only be used as a last resort, and when there’s no other hope of getting information that is needed ASAP.
  - narrowingorbits 9y ago
    What you describe there is a broken and unusable value system.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    It's the value system. Either you follow the laws and values of your country always or you don't. You can't protect values by violating them.
    - 9y ago
RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
Which is worse: torture or killing? It seems that with all the attention that torture got, the Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism.
- function_seven 9y ago
  If we limit ourselves to those two options, I believe torture is worse. Or can be. There is no end to the horrors when you intentionally keep someone alive to make them suffer at your whim, vs. killing them in one fell swoop. Torture exposes the blackest parts of our humanity in a way that droning someone never could.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    If you have the chance to save the life of a terrorist who is about to detonate a bomb, you should? If that terrorist tells you "my people have set other bombs just like this, your people will die horribly" do you choose to kill them, or torture then to potentially save the many others from death and mutilation? Or do you just say "oh, how naughty" and clean up the blood of the innocent people afterwards. If we refuse to play at the terrorists game of death then their cause wins at the cost of billions of lives. Then they can continue to kill and maim over ever more nuanced positions. In part the problem is that a (the, I suspect) major source of terrorists is adherents of Islam who follow Mohammed's example of murder, and his injunctions in the Koran, and hadith, to violently oppress. As long as that book exists to inspire the actions, and that man is treated as a model for others then we'll continue to have such problems.
- Retric 9y ago
  Torture. Army's are trained to kill not Torture for very good reasons.
  - mulmen 9y ago
    Are they though? Sure we say we don't torture people but given a realistic choice between taking someone alive and killing them don't we generally favor capture?
asmithmd1 9y ago
The company that "owned" the plane they used had the same address as a small law firm in Dedham, MA - a town that borders Boston: https://www.upi.com/Mass-lawfirm-linked-to-extradition-jet/24071101762289/ https://www.upi.com/Mass-lawfirm-linked-to-extradition-jet/2...
wcr3 9y ago
i feel like i'm having a stroke trying to read this title
TaylorGood 9y ago
The Boeing in discussion was/is for sale: https://www.insidehook.com/nation/old-cia-jet-sale https://www.insidehook.com/nation/old-cia-jet-sale
fouc 9y ago
>“It turned out I knew two of the three Aero principals well,” Caison said during a tour around the airport the day before the commission’s hearings convened. “These were prominent, well-respected business people in our community. Their children and mine were schoolmates. I baked their gingerbread houses for Christmas.” I had a crazy thought that Caison could have organized an intervention for each. Involve close friends & family & neighbours and sit down with one principal at a time. Encourage them to come face to face with the morality of this. A small private non-confrontational intervention could perhaps bring about quicker change if the principal's suddenly realize their friends & family & neighbours are aware of the shady aspects of their work.
ionised 9y ago
I can't see how this kind of thing doesn't just create more terrorists. Even if I was totally innocent and this happened to me and was eventually released, the first thing on my mind would be revenge in some form. Kudos CIA. Creating new enemies wherever none may be found, throughout this last century.
oldsklgdfth 9y ago
This may seem like a naive question, but what is the point of rendition flights? Just to get around constitutional rights? Seems like with all that money and effort you could just do it here. EDIT: I don't condone torture. I think it's sad the way we treat each other.
- pc86 9y ago
  Yes, "just" to get around constitutional rights. The constitution applies to everyone within the United States, citizen or otherwise. Removing them from US soil simplifies the equation somewhat.
  - oldsklgdfth 9y ago
    So they are violating the law of the "land", by literally going to different land. This sounds a lot like corporate/beaurocratic cover-your-ass policy that is there so you don't get fired. It just seems to me that someone like the CIA could torture in some basement in area-51 and they would still be untouchable. In a weird way this kinda speaks a bit to the power of the constitution or the respect that it holds. Even if you are basically violating it.
    - stordoff 9y ago
      I wonder if it's more logistical than legal - extraordinary rendition, by its nature, already exists outside of the law. It is, however, easier to hide someone outside of the country (from legal representatives etc.) and deny their existence, it's easier to hide the facilities, and it's easier to find skilled and willing practitioners of torture in a country which practices it more widely (boy, that's a fun thought :/). It's also face-saving to some extent - it lets the leadership say "We do not torture" accurately and with a straight face, and I believe it's _slightly_ less risky legally (knowing torture is likely rather than actively ordering). That said, I've no doubt some government agency could use torture with impunity on US soil though (especially when you consider local police forces have come somewhat close to doing exactly that. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department#Homan_Square https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department#Homa... ).
zpatel 9y ago
Its 21st century, and we still need nukes and torture to feel secure..what a shame.

306 points by pera 9y ago

This of course will get little traction on a site where all of the 'thought leaders' are employed or bribed by the same intelligence agencies these people have a problem with. #edit flag away you echo-chamber loving fools of anti-intellectualism. I bet more people register to view my flagged comment than do to engage in the farce of a comment board you Marxist fools run.

jacquesm 9y ago
What a nonsense.
- christiand992 9y ago
  > What a nonsense. I'm sorry? Did you have something to add, or did your frantic mashing of the oversocialized button get in the way of your argument (and grammar)?
dragonwriter 9y ago
> on a site where all of the 'thought leaders' are employed or bribed by the same intelligence agencies these people have a problem with. [Checks leaderboard; I'm still there at #27] Clearly, there has been an oversight. The intelligence officials responsible for employment and bribes should contact me at their earliest convenience to correct this.
- a_t48 9y ago
  That's just what a CIA shill would say!
- christiand992 9y ago
  How pedantic of you. #27 places you well outside the bounds, sorry.
- linkmotif 9y ago
  This is how I feel about being Jewish. I’m still waiting for the International Zionist Elders or Cabal or something to give me a shout. But no, nothing after all these years :(
  - christiand992 9y ago
    Even evil elites understand the need to be able to have a good-faith conversation. You're too used to addressing the internet karma as opposed to the individual. Yours is a meta-conversation held by meta-people. Unsuitable for anything other than being a tool for the elite. Carry on.

landonxjames 9y ago

Oh wow this is shocking, I grew up less than 10 minutes from this airport and had no idea the CIA was using it.

IIAOPSW 9y ago

That's real optimistic of the Guardian but somehow I doubt there's all that much grass roots support against rendition flights. We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus.

knz 9y ago
> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Much of the country is purple not red and blue - if you can have a respectful conversation with someone you can find common ground on these issues. And show up on election day. The First Amendment exists for a reason - "we get the government we deserve" applies to those of us who chose to stay informed as well if we don't respond to the challenges of the day.
- IIAOPSW 9y ago
  >So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.
  - knz 9y ago
    Yes, very much so with some individuals. I have friends and family across the political spectrum and we regularly talk about the issues of the day (always in person, social media is a horrible platform for this). I've had success educating individuals about issues like net neutrality, gun rights, gay marriage, climate change, and environmental regulation to the point that they completely changed their views to at least neutral. They've changed my views on issues as well. I've also talked people out of supporting outrageous statements or made them question their own beliefs (rural relatives in South Dakota who loved talking about their lack of income tax now openly question why SD gets so much more government tax money than neighbouring MN etc). That said, the point isn't to be "win", it's to have a dialogue, share ideas, and break out of the "us vs them" mentality.

maxxxxx 9y ago

The value systems of the people running this must be severely distorted. Can't torture at home so let's fly people to some dictatorship to get it done there. I guess it's the same mindset that caused a democratically elected president in Iran to be overthrown and replaced by a dictator in order to save freedom and democracy.

jacquesm 9y ago
It is the same value system that created Guantanamo Bay Prison.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  Yep. Forgot to mention that.
- InclinedPlane 9y ago
  And the Phoenix Program: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program
matte_black 9y ago
I wouldn’t say it’s their value system, rather it’s a result of the enormous pressure they face. Torture should only be used as a last resort, and when there’s no other hope of getting information that is needed ASAP.
- narrowingorbits 9y ago
  What you describe there is a broken and unusable value system.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  It's the value system. Either you follow the laws and values of your country always or you don't. You can't protect values by violating them.
  - 9y ago

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago

Which is worse: torture or killing? It seems that with all the attention that torture got, the Obama administration basically stopped trying to capture people alive to interrogate them and instead just sent drone based missiles to just kill anyone suspected of terrorism.

function_seven 9y ago
If we limit ourselves to those two options, I believe torture is worse. Or can be. There is no end to the horrors when you intentionally keep someone alive to make them suffer at your whim, vs. killing them in one fell swoop. Torture exposes the blackest parts of our humanity in a way that droning someone never could.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  If you have the chance to save the life of a terrorist who is about to detonate a bomb, you should? If that terrorist tells you "my people have set other bombs just like this, your people will die horribly" do you choose to kill them, or torture then to potentially save the many others from death and mutilation? Or do you just say "oh, how naughty" and clean up the blood of the innocent people afterwards. If we refuse to play at the terrorists game of death then their cause wins at the cost of billions of lives. Then they can continue to kill and maim over ever more nuanced positions. In part the problem is that a (the, I suspect) major source of terrorists is adherents of Islam who follow Mohammed's example of murder, and his injunctions in the Koran, and hadith, to violently oppress. As long as that book exists to inspire the actions, and that man is treated as a model for others then we'll continue to have such problems.
Retric 9y ago
Torture. Army's are trained to kill not Torture for very good reasons.
- mulmen 9y ago
  Are they though? Sure we say we don't torture people but given a realistic choice between taking someone alive and killing them don't we generally favor capture?

asmithmd1 9y ago

The company that "owned" the plane they used had the same address as a small law firm in Dedham, MA - a town that borders Boston: https://www.upi.com/Mass-lawfirm-linked-to-extradition-jet/24071101762289/ https://www.upi.com/Mass-lawfirm-linked-to-extradition-jet/2...

wcr3 9y ago

i feel like i'm having a stroke trying to read this title

TaylorGood 9y ago

The Boeing in discussion was/is for sale: https://www.insidehook.com/nation/old-cia-jet-sale https://www.insidehook.com/nation/old-cia-jet-sale

fouc 9y ago

>“It turned out I knew two of the three Aero principals well,” Caison said during a tour around the airport the day before the commission’s hearings convened. “These were prominent, well-respected business people in our community. Their children and mine were schoolmates. I baked their gingerbread houses for Christmas.” I had a crazy thought that Caison could have organized an intervention for each. Involve close friends & family & neighbours and sit down with one principal at a time. Encourage them to come face to face with the morality of this. A small private non-confrontational intervention could perhaps bring about quicker change if the principal's suddenly realize their friends & family & neighbours are aware of the shady aspects of their work.

ionised 9y ago

I can't see how this kind of thing doesn't just create more terrorists. Even if I was totally innocent and this happened to me and was eventually released, the first thing on my mind would be revenge in some form. Kudos CIA. Creating new enemies wherever none may be found, throughout this last century.

oldsklgdfth 9y ago

This may seem like a naive question, but what is the point of rendition flights? Just to get around constitutional rights? Seems like with all that money and effort you could just do it here. EDIT: I don't condone torture. I think it's sad the way we treat each other.

pc86 9y ago
Yes, "just" to get around constitutional rights. The constitution applies to everyone within the United States, citizen or otherwise. Removing them from US soil simplifies the equation somewhat.
- oldsklgdfth 9y ago
  So they are violating the law of the "land", by literally going to different land. This sounds a lot like corporate/beaurocratic cover-your-ass policy that is there so you don't get fired. It just seems to me that someone like the CIA could torture in some basement in area-51 and they would still be untouchable. In a weird way this kinda speaks a bit to the power of the constitution or the respect that it holds. Even if you are basically violating it.
  - stordoff 9y ago
    I wonder if it's more logistical than legal - extraordinary rendition, by its nature, already exists outside of the law. It is, however, easier to hide someone outside of the country (from legal representatives etc.) and deny their existence, it's easier to hide the facilities, and it's easier to find skilled and willing practitioners of torture in a country which practices it more widely (boy, that's a fun thought :/). It's also face-saving to some extent - it lets the leadership say "We do not torture" accurately and with a straight face, and I believe it's _slightly_ less risky legally (knowing torture is likely rather than actively ordering). That said, I've no doubt some government agency could use torture with impunity on US soil though (especially when you consider local police forces have come somewhat close to doing exactly that. See, e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department#Homan_Square https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Police_Department#Homa... ).

zpatel 9y ago

Its 21st century, and we still need nukes and torture to feel secure..what a shame.