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Ibuprofen alters human testicular physiology
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- MollyR 9y agoIt would be mind boggling if pain killers were connected to dropping male fertility. It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain.
- nisten 9y agoWould that bring a testosterone boost then, or like milder balls or something?
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y agoI sometimes imagine, with horror, what would happen if after 500 years of progress, humanity were to realize that almost all cultural practices they painfully, one by one, undid, were all sensible to begin with for reasons that humanity didn't previously understand.
- rdruxn 9y agoWhat an interesting writing prompt
- lloeki 9y agoIndeed, and submitted[0] right away. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/7p2ubq/wp_a_group_of_scientists_and_philosophers_realize/?st=JC6UO8ZG&sh=e56b9ee7 https://www.reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts/comments/7p2ubq/wp_a...
- Chaebixi 9y ago> I sometimes imagine, with horror, what would happen if after 500 years of progress, humanity were to realize that almost all cultural practices they painfully, one by one, undid, were all sensible to begin with for reasons that humanity didn't previously understand. Especially since modern cultural change seems to have a tendency to be driven by the youngest politically-aware cohorts. Not a lot of time to acquire wisdom that might prevent that, if you're so young you haven't even collected enough knowledge yet.
- inciampati 9y agoBeautifully written. This thought that I have often half-pondered has now become unified and unforgettable. Thank you.
- acchow 9y ago“If the stars should appear one night in a thousand years, how would men believe and adore; and preserve for many generations the remembrance of the city of God”
- deadmetheny 9y agoOr, alternatively, you'll be driven mad by the sight and your entire civilization will collapse. http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/AST389/TEXTS/Nightfall.htm http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/fwalter/AST389/TEXTS/Nightfall.h...
- Dylan16807 9y agoTiny positive effects are not worth the downsides of most of those. So even if that's somehow true it's okay.
- Retra 9y agoYou're just describing evolution. We almost assuredly don't practice most of the habits of whatever sludge we evolved from, regardless of how useful it is to sludge to continue such practices. And if we stop doing things, we will probably do so for reasons just as valid as why our ancestors started them.
- User23 9y agoThis is basically the position of the alt-right, neoreaction, and similar "movements."
- disconnected 9y ago> It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain. Right. And a notable trend among those cultures is that they are all nearly extinct. So much for their fertility. Of course this observation could biased due to my own ignorance. I only remember, like, 3 such cultures, and they were your typical African/Amazonian/Aboriginal tribes that still live in near-neolithic conditions. Is there any industrialized culture that still follows such rituals?
- jgust 9y agoSee: The NFL
- disconnected 9y agoWhen I think "painful initiation ritual", I think "glove made out of bullet ants" [1] not "organized sporting event in which everyone is wearing armor and hurting someone badly is grounds for stopping the game and rushing him/her to the hospital". Even if you pick something like Boxing or similar contact sports where the goal is to intentionally hurt your opponent, it is still a far-cry from sticking your hand into a whiting mass of animals that have the most painful bite ever recorded. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata#Initiation_rites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata#Initiation_...
- badosu 9y agoIronically maybe having a glove full of ants once in a while is safer than shocking your head repeatedly every week for years...
- pas 9y agoIsn't that inferal tree in Australia more painful?
- guitarbill 9y agoPedantic: it's a tree so it doesn't bite? But yeah, the gympie gympie [0] sounds horrible - potentially too horrible/long-lasting effects for a rite of passage? Luckily, it's in Australia! [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrocnide_moroides
- palgraham 9y agoare you Dwight from the office?
- cookiecaper 9y agoWhere can I read about "dropping male fertility" as a medical thing? Just taking a blind guess, as someone who doesn't follow the medical field, I would suggest that increases in "infertility" are much more likely to be caused by the older age at which people are becoming interested in "fertilization" than environmental factors causing biological malfunctions. In other words, it's not that reproductive systems are breaking faster, it's just that people aren't using them until they're worse for wear.
- badosu 9y agoThere are some metrics that are related to fertility like ejaculation volume and sperm motility[0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_motility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_motility
- sreaching 9y agotestosterone levels have declined in most developed countries when comparing similar age cohorts over time. See the following studies: from Finland - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23161753 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23161753. from USA - https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434 it is a bit of a medical mystery because the trend cannot be fully explained by lifestyle factors like weight gain.
- 52-6F-62 9y agoThis discussion came up sometime within the past few months. It was really interesting. I recall mentioning some research into the effects of food/organics preservatives (namely Parabens) and low testosterone: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419695 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419695
- edmccard 9y ago>It might even explain why so many cultures had rites to male adulthood involving extreme pain. Unless you believe that the rites were created to address the problem of "one day, there will be analgesics with antiandrogen effects, so we'll have a few centuries of practice at enduring extreme pain", then I don't see how there could be any connection.
- User23 9y agoYou are absolutely correct. Pain is far more than a simple signaling mechanism to tell you to take your hand off the stove. One of its more interesting applications is as a pathway to mystical experiences. In the Christian tradition for example one uses one's own pain to come into a kind of spiritual alignment with Christ's experience and in that way become closer to God. I'm not particularly familiar with other spiritual traditions, but I'd be shocked if every single major one doesn't have some kind of mystical algetic praxis.
- tomcam 9y agoTry pronouncing the URL
- ceejayoz 9y agoThe URL seems to be hugged to death. Media coverage: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jan/08/ibuprofen-may-increase-risk-of-fertility-issues-in-men-study-suggests https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/jan/08/ibuprofen-ma...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- IncRnd 9y agoYou can visit http://archive.is/vqFuM http://archive.is/vqFuM to view the paper.
- diryawish 9y agoHow sufficient is a sample size of 31 healthy white men?
- jtmarmon 9y agoThis is what P-values are for
- shock 9y agoPerhaps explain how P-values are to be used in this case, for the lay of us.
- baobrain 9y agoDISCLAIMER: EXTREME SIMPLIFICATION Given a statement and a sample with a mean and standard deviation, what is the probability that you manage to choose a sample with that mean and SD, assuming the statement is true? For example, my statement is the average weight of chicken an american eats every month is 20 pounds and my sample gives me a mean of 16 and SD of 4. The p value is the probability of choosing a group of people who eat on average 16 pounds of chicken every month if the REAL mean is actually 20. Edit to answer question: The p value doesn't "care" about the sample size - it is adjusted and remains accurate. And so if the p value if high for the sample in the study, that means it is a likely occurrence and the result is not very noteworthy.
- Shank 9y agoA p-value in a test statistic is the probability that the result of the test statistic could have been achieved through random data variations. A p-value is described in tandem with an alpha level, the minimum acceptable value to reject the null hypothesis in the test statistic. In short: typical alpha is 0.05, so a p-value < 0.05 is considered "statistically significant" and the results are not attributable to random chance in a t-test. An unpaired t-test compares two populations, and a p-value below the alpha level indicates that differences are not due to random chance. Take everything with a grain of salt, though. Low sample sizes dramatically change how test statistics produce results. P-value hacking is the practice of eliminating data from an experiment to produce statistically significant results or otherwise altering the data by adding buffers to ensure that a result confirms a belief a researcher has.
- dschuetz 9y agoWell, that's balls-breaking news.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Pxtl 9y agoIs it callous of me not to worry about the testosterone levels of professional athletes? Because they seem to generally have enough. I worry more about people with RSI who often depend on overuse of anti-inflammatory meds and aren't demonstrably professionally masculine.
- anigbrowl 9y agoProfessional athletes make for a good study population because they tend to keep records of their training/performance/injury status. Also their behavior influences painkiller consumption in the population at large through endorsements or just interviews on their fitness regimen. If you like sports and know your favorite athlete uses a certain class of product to deal with cramps, you're likely to recall that when you're in the drugstore looking to alleviate a similar problem.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y agoNo one is asking you to worry about professional athletes in specific. If the effect is demonstrated to be applicable to men in general, it would also affect the people you mentioned.
- fencepost 9y agoOkay, so ibuprofen impacts testicular function, acetaminophen/paracetamol causes muting of emotional response (along with the liver toxicity), many other painkillers are related to ibuprofen, and opiates are Right Out. Is aspirin at least reasonably safe as long as the blood thinning isn't a problem?
- elchief 9y agosome people can't handle the effect on the stomach. but if you can handle it, it's a good choice. Or marijuana
- lcfcjs2 9y ago+1 for Marijuana. Both ibpuprofen and aspirin have Ripped my stomach up (I took it every day for eye migraines for years). I still have stomach issues.
- ribosometronome 9y ago> marijuana Unless that makes you anxious.
- toomanybeersies 9y agoIn that case, use ketamine? In all seriousness though, there is research being done and evidence to suggest that ketamine can be used for pain management. Most of it seems to be about using it synergistically with opioids, to reduce the amount of opioids required.
- pennaMan 9y agosadly ketamine has severe side effects https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4678404/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4678404/
- lobf 9y agoCBD?
- Alex3917 9y agoAt 1200mg/d, I feel like destroying your reproductive system would be the least of your concerns.
- u801e 9y agoIIRC, one can take up to 2400 mg/day at 800 mg per dose for up to 10 days on a prescription.
- vkou 9y agoI've been prescribed up to 2400mg/d for a few weeks to deal with my knee. Not for the painkilling aspect (Because it wasn't painful), but for the anti-inflammatory.
- acjohnson55 9y agoSame with me, for a pinched nerve. Both for pain and anti-inflammatory.
- karlkatzke 9y agoIbuprofen doesn’t work as an anti inflammatory until you take at least 2400mg/day.
- Alex3917 9y agoHave a source on that? When I was in college I had some bad inflammatory issues to the point where I couldn't even walk, but it only took 200mg once or twice a week to completely fix the issue. When I didn't take any at all it would get worse and worse until I couldn't even stand up, but as soon I took it I was completely fine in 20 min or so.
- tlb 9y agoI was recommended 1200mg/day for carpal tunnel inflammation, and it helped.
- aroman 9y agoHere is a study[0] which directly contradicts that claim: "Thus, the higher dose of ibuprofen (2400 mg per day) was not superior to either the dose of acetaminophen (4000 mg per day) or the lower dose of ibuprofen (1200 mg per day) for pain relief or improvement of function." http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199107113250203#t=article http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199107113250203#t=a...
- ardit33 9y agoIf you hang around bodybuilding forums you will hear to avoid Ibuprofens as they hurt your ‘gains’ Perhaps bro-science was right in this case
- marpstar 9y agoYour comment intrigued me so I Googled and found this[1] article. Not sure what to think. The sample size in the study was even smaller than that in the original article. [1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18461099 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18461099
- bluedevil2k 9y agoBodybuilders tend to not rely on their testes for testosterone production though
- pkaye 9y agoWhat I've read is that NSAIDs in reducing inflamantion, it can slow down the mobilization of immune cells that help clean up damaged tissues and promote new tissues.
- DanieI 9y agoNSAID pain relievers don't have any anti-inflammatory properties when they are taken in over-the-counter dosages.
- brandonmenc 9y ago"High doses of anti-inflammatory drugs compromise muscle strength and hypertrophic adaptations to resistance training in young adults" 2017 paper http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apha.12948/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apha.12948/abstra...
- seibelj 9y agoAs much as possible, I believe we should all try to do everything in moderation. Never be too extreme in medicine, exercise, drinking, drugs, food, etc. Sometimes in life you can't avoid the situation, unfortunately.
- carlmr 9y agoA friend of mine had some good wisdom from her mom. If you have to take medication, take different ones, not always the same ones. If you eat premade food, buy different kinds, not always the same ones. It's basically portfolio risk diversification. You increase the risk of having some negative effects, by virtue of trying more things, but you hugely decrease the risk of taking one thing excessively that does you a lot of harm in the future.
- xaedes 9y agoAlso known to some as the "Middle Way": [1] In the Pāli Canon of Theravada Buddhism, the term "Middle Way" was used in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, which the Buddhist tradition regards to be the first teaching that the Buddha delivered after his awakening. In this sutta, the Buddha describes the Noble Eightfold Path as the middle way of moderation, between the extremes of sensual indulgence and self-mortification [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Way
- mlloyd 9y agoI've taken entirely too much Ibuprofen - I've had a lot of babies. Since the sample size of this study is 31 people, I say that my one case is significant and this study is bunk. That's why you can't rely on a study of 31 people.
- WilliamSt 9y agoOf course. I'd much rather trust the anecdotes of a stranger on the internet
- aeternus 9y agomlloyd has a point, the P value is right on the edge of significance and the study has only 31 people. Take into account the bias that the negative result (no-correlation) would not pass the bar for publication and you likely have noise.
- fragsworth 9y agoIt could have easily impacted your hormone production without destroying your ability to have babies.
- blondie9x 9y agoI can't tell, is the impact irreversible and if so at what dose threshold? Anyone know?
- pfarnsworth 9y agoShit, what does this mean for children and their development? Ibuprofen has been our go-to analgesic since our kids were born.
- jensvdh 9y agoI'm suffering from Ankylosing Spondilytis (a non-cureable chronic disease similar to Artritis). Let me tell you, the side effects are the least of my concerns when I'm in chronic pain.
- leeoniya 9y agoeverything i read here refers to effects on testosterone levels. how does this relate to actual fertility (that can be measured in a semen analysis)? would lower testosterone levels affect count, motility, morphology, etc?
- zengid 9y agoNot a doctor / scientist. Can anyone tell me if this is a pilot study or reproduced results from other studies? Or in other words, should I take this as a fact yet?
- Shank 9y agoThis is from PNAS early edition, and has no citations yet (meaning nobody has used this work in subsequent studies). For the general topic, Google Scholar (https://scholar.google.com/ https://scholar.google.com/) is excellent at finding journal articles on any topic (including testicular function as it relates to ibuprofen). At first glance, this doesn't appear to be reproduction of prior work either.
- microdrum 9y agoCONGRATULATIONS, GUYS! A landmark study about infertility is now a thread about why can’t we have more marijuana.
- dang 9y agoWould you please stop posting unsubstantive comments here?
- asdjasldkjkljd 9y agoWe have to acknowledge that this testicular physiology study has been published on p-nas, right?
- bawana 9y agoIn this age of political correctness, who needs testicles anyway?