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Apple CEO backs China’s ‘open’ Internet vision as censorship reaches new heights

319 points by tony101 9y ago

Top19 9y ago
China is a well run country, but most countries seem that way with 5%+ economic growth YoY. In reality, it’s slowly becoming a prison of 1.3 billion people that is gently closing its maws on them. Life is good, growth is great, but whenever the next crisis comes, which it will, the government will not be replaced like in Democracy but actively fight back, with technology developed by the best American companies. From there, they will probably close down and self-seal their economy like the Soviet Union did with some success, and embark on a period of profound killing as a means of control.
- Aloha 9y ago
  I see no basis in reality for this claim. China is more open now, than it has been at any point since 1949 - and it continues to liberalize things - just very very slowly.
  - selectodude 9y ago
    I think most would agree if was more open under Hu than it is now under Xi. They’re moving in the wrong direction.
    - pas 9y ago
      Could you give examples? What was better under Hu?
  - yeukhon 9y ago
    "Liberalize things" can you cite any, because as someone who is familiar with China, Xi's regime is less liberal than ever. The country does welcome foreign investors, but that's about it (and that comes with a lot of restrictions).
    - vkou 9y ago
      > Xi's regime is less liberal than ever. How so?
      - eric-hu 9y ago
        The HK bookstore owners disappearing come to mind.
        tensitors 9y ago
        And they were released and allowed to tell their story. If this incident happened any time before Xi, would the outcome have been the same?
        yeukhon 9y ago
        Why registered a new account to comment on this? You can't be serious right? They told a story based on a script. Sorry, I cannot trust someone who just created a new account to make a comment like this.
        paradite 9y ago
        And they were released and allowed to tell their story. If this incident happened any time before Xi, would the outcome have been the same?
        yeukhon 9y ago
        They were released because the mainland government was forced to explain why the owners were arrested (but a lot of people believe they were kidnapped). In particular, one of the owners is a British citizen. While pro-mainland argued that the owners were arrested lawfully, the truth is not. > It was widely believed that the booksellers were detained in mainland China, and in February 2016 Guangdong provincial authorities confirmed that all five had been taken into custody in relation to an old traffic case involving Gui Minhai. How could all five be detained in relation to an old traffic case? Most importantly, there was no evidence of these owners leaving HK, so how did they end up in China? All five of them? Plotting against mainland? Why would a traffic case warrant this kind of arrest? Let's face it, if this was a local traffic incident in U.S., there would be no manhunt at this scale.
  - nailer 9y ago
    Corruption is still endemic, as is natural in dictatorships. It's punished very publically when it's revealed, but that's likely to be the tip of the iceberg.
  - cromwellian 9y ago
    Really? VPNs banned, Skype banned (recently), and in Xinjiang province, forced installation of backdoors. China has the largest surveillance state of any country internally now under Xi, things have gotten far more locked down since he became President.
- thisthatandthe 9y ago
  China is NOT well run. Life is NOT good. The growth is FAKE 7% every year. There was a very recent event happening in Beijing kindergarten regarding sexual abuses....and the authorities CLAMPED DOWN ON THE MEDIA and DENIED IT TOOK PLACE. http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/rumors-11292017123013.html http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/rumors-11292017123013.... Why do you think the rich and the intellectuals are fleeing the country? Polluted air, polluted water, polluted food, hidden poverty, censorship, police state, the list goes on and on....
  - ztratar 9y ago
    Those sure are a lot of sensationalist claims. Can you provide evidence for your "FAKE" 7% YoY growth statistic? I know plenty of traders & Americans doing business in China who'd disagree with you. I understand why people would flee -- the pollution is insane. But still, by all measures I've see the economic growth is quite real.
  - client4 9y ago
    I've spent the better part of my last few months in China, Beijing and Shanghai specifically. China just speed-ran the industrial revolution at 10x the size of the US and is about to surpass us in the next era of energy, renewable energy. Beijing pollution is still bad. But it's 1/2 of where it was at 4 years ago, and will likely be non-existent in the next 10 years.
    - bduerst 9y ago
      Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Most westerners' impressions of China are 10 years behind. There's always been a ton of, "Just wait until the sky falls China won't be prepared" doom saying but as a controlled economy they've become the largest producer of green energy in the world, and are racing to produce the first general A.I.
  - aylmao 9y ago
    It's finals season in college so of course I just wrote an essay about this whole thing. I have 3 points to make; 1. I think people need to think of this in the historical context. China has always been closed to the West. The only time they really "opened up" it was because they were forced to after the opium wars, and they lost much of their sovereignty to European spheres of influence that ultimately wrecked them economically. Being closed has historically worked for them and not being so hasn't, so is it such a surprise they want to remain closed? 2. Economically it makes tonnes of sense to do this, and to be honest, I believe that's the main reason they're doing it (more so than to stop criticism's of the party or try to hide stuff). They're beating the West at their own game. Their country has so many people they don't need international markets; China has more people than Europe and North America combined! France, for example, will likely never get it's own Facebook, Uber or Amazon because Facebook, Uber and Amazon are free to operate there, and as long as these big players hang around (which they will, indefinitely) there will be little space for a competing product to develop. This means France, - Will have tech startups, but never with "Silicon Valley" level size or growth. - These services in France will be highly dependant on USA policy - Most importantly, there will be less incentive for certain types of engineering to grow in France. Like, will France ever have a hub for self-driving car research if there's no French Uber/Lyft/etc? Will it ever have as many self-driving car specialists? If there are engineers interested in this, they will most likely come to the US and work here. China is protecting itself from brain/idea/high-skilled-job-drain by ensuring local alternatives grow within its borders. It wants to be a tech hub, and this is really the best if not only way to do it when it comes to software tech. 3. Stability. We might call it censorship and control, and we might be right, but especially after the Russian involvement in the USA's latest presidential elections and how easy it was for them to reach their audience online [1], do they not have reason to be paranoid? It's in the interest of Russia to have Trump as president, and, tbh, to split the American people and have in-fighting. And apparently it's not hard for them to make this happen in this connected world. Propaganda can come from both within, and outside. I'm not trying to say that this is the best approach or that everyone should do this, but there's definitely more to it than "China is evil and wants to brainwash people isolating them from the outside world". Information can definitely get in and out of China; I think the historical, economic and defensive reasons make more sense in explaining China's approach. They're just being protectionist. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/30/facebook-russia-fake-accounts-126-million https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/30/facebook-...
- forapurpose 9y ago
  > China is a well run country While I generally agree with your point, I don't know if I accept this premise. Would citizens in Tibet agree, for example? Hong Kong?
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Depends on who you ask. Lots of mainlanders live in HK now. I'd assume most young HK-ers are still against China but if nothing changes slowly the HK will be assimilated and mainstream opinion will align more with mainland Chinese as time goes on.
    - forapurpose 9y ago
      > but if nothing changes slowly the HK will be assimilated and mainstream opinion will align more with mainland Chinese as time goes on With due respect, that's a prediction without a basis, not evidence or an argument.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - richardknop 9y ago
        It's actually my opinion. I'm not claiming it is a provable fact. It is just what I think might happen in next 50 years let's say. HK has been independent for a long time and been given back to China quite recently so I think 100 years from now if it stays as part of China it would be much less independent. For example, take a look at Kaliningrad which is completely Russian now. Or other parts of Europe which were assimilated when taken over by bigger nations/states.
        seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        It’s very possible. Especially if the HKers move away. Funny, the doom and gloom predicted for 1997 did come eventually, just 20 years later.
        9y ago
- shubhamjain 9y ago
  Next few decades would be interesting. China definitely had the upper hand in industrialisation with little to no opposition to its policies and infrastructure infrastructure projects. It still has it. But, it seems they have firm belief in tightening their rein. India, on the other hand, while at least a decade behind, is a less restrictive system by design. If it takes few steps right, India could be a less frightening alternative for future investments.
  - cannonedhamster 9y ago
    Heck if India could fix it's power issues and network peering issues they'd catch up pretty darned quick.
  - sremani 9y ago
    India is a fragmented country and Modi has to win another term impressively to get any kind of "true" reforms. Even if he succeeds, its the South and West leading the economy and Hindi heartland playing catch-up in spite of being political and population center. India will develop unevenly Gujarat, Maharashtra, TN, AP will forge ahead. The interior will have lesser impressive growth. As long as India periphery is culturally diverse from Hindi core, India is not going to get anywhere. It will grow and medium pace and will make it to middle income in 2040, but nothing stellar.
    - dgaaaaaaaaaa 9y ago
      > As long as India periphery is culturally diverse from Hindi core, India is not going to get anywhere. Could you elaborate on why that might be?
      - likelynew 9y ago
        That was a racist comment. He/She was referring to Hindi belt, which contains UP, Bihar, MP, the capital Delhi and likes. Many of the regions are poorest in India. This is commonly referred to as core of India.
- legulere 9y ago
  The Chinese government is directly drawing its legitimacy from the betterment of the Chinese population and this seems to be also the government’s own understanding of the situation.
- luvbb 9y ago
  > it’s slowly becoming a prison of 1.3 billion people that is gently closing its maws on them. China has a long and established history of replacing governments that are unfair to their people. It's just, why would you overthrow a government bringing in so much economic growth. Once that growth slows down their government will get away with less civil rights violations.
- bobjordan 9y ago
  Go on with your science fiction plot. "In reality" it's not like that at all. Have you ever been to China?
- hnarn 9y ago
  > China is a well run country, but most countries seem that way with 5%+ economic growth YoY. What most people don't seem to understand is that China's growth is largely based on the fact that it started off, very recently, from such a low baseline. Big percentage increases are a lot easier when you go from nothing, that doesn't mean you'd want to be a country that recently started from nothing.
tr4cefl0w 9y ago
“The theme of this conference — developing a digital economy for openness and shared benefits — is a vision we at Apple share,” Cook said, in widely reported remarks. “We are proud to have worked alongside many of our partners in China to help build a community that will join a common future in cyberspace.” I don't even know how to react to his friendly remarks towards China. Is it to keep the government happy and keep profiting from the Chinese market? That would make sense. But sometimes I feel like he's become too friendly.
- bhrgunatha 9y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow#Diplomacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow#Diplomacy
- gcb0 9y ago
  are they hinting about leaving China. Why else would he use a term like "cyberspace" in this day and age? Or did he speak in chinese and this is a bad translation?
slimsag 9y ago
It seems from my perspective that Cook knows that technology alone will help expand viewpoints of people within China, which will ultimately lead to more democracy in general. I think it's unfair to assume that if Apple was to outright leave the Chinese market that this would somehow change China's stance on censorship. Instead, it will just likely cause competition to fill the gap as already is the case with many things in China's tech scene today. So what do people think is the right choice for them? Leave China all together and say "no way, we won't be here unless the internet is totally open" or "we'll accept it.. for now"?
- peculiarbird 9y ago
  That has been American thinking leading up to this point in time and guess what? IT ISN'T WORKING AND IT WONT WORK. China has their own culture and traditions and that won't just change because we trade with them or Apple sells stuff there.
  - slimsag 9y ago
    I don't think using caps helps your argument. Just saying that something isn't working doesn't mean there is a better option, either. Do you think there would be a different outcome if everyone pulled out of China completely and they do everything on their own without any external influence?
    - peculiarbird 9y ago
      The caps were to emphasize my point it wasn't meant to advance my argument Yes I don't think that bowing to blatant censorship is a good option. He is enabling the suppression of free speech to make sure his stock doesn't drop. There are some cases where trading with China would be fine but selling products to wall off free speech is not one of them
      - dang 9y ago
        > The caps were to emphasize my point That's explicitly against the site guidelines, so can you please not do it here? It's basically yelling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
emmelaich 9y ago
Is he naive or greedy? Or is this actually a good thing? I don't know. Combine this with the other story on the front page where Apple shares the wireframe of your face. Not reassuring.
- richardknop 9y ago
  Possibly neither of those two (I doubt he is naive and I don't think he's greedy, he has FU enough money and could retire and never work again if he wanted to). He's just doing what Apple shareholders want, i.e. sell Apple products in biggest mobile phone market in the world.
- M4v3R 9y ago
  It doesn’t share the wireframe of your face. It shares a generic face wireframe morphed to fit on your face. This wireframe lacks details that could be used to identify you in a way FaceID does. This is not worse than letting the developers access front facing camera to take a picture of your face.
EZ-E 9y ago
Tim Cook wasn't invited for his beliefs, but to give face to the Chinese government. Chinese internet is as closed as it gets. Any foreign company eating up the market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into merging into a local entity. For now it really is open in one way : Chinese companies are welcome to compete in the whole world, but China won't let you be a competitor of the local companies Cook is "forced" into this monkey dance because he's deeply entrenched into the Chinese market. He only has little leverage : the jobs he creates in China and the money he makes there. He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference
- thisthatandthe 9y ago
  any company stupid enough to go to China and give up its intellectual properties deserves to die. 1.3B people?! let me get a piece of that. Oh, and let my stuff get copied and stolen, and I'll lose the US market and the entire world market, which is way bigger than the Chinese market.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - dang 9y ago
    We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines. Nationalistic rants aren't welcome here.
    - cisanti 9y ago
      What is wrong with nationalism? You really have the censor dick deep up your white ass.
- longcheng 9y ago
  Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law wherever you do business and make money? Google was allowed to operate in China, and it decided it did NOT want to follow the law and quit. Google was an underdog in Chinese search anyway when it operated in China. It simply failed to compete against Bidu. Amazon has been operating in China since 2000ish. It failed to compete against Alibaba and Jindong. Facebook will definitely lose to Tecent/Weixin in China market even if it is allowed. Cisco lost to Huawei everywhere in the world except in US, where Huawei is forbidden... Microsoft and Apple are doing well in China because they follow the local law and actually create value to local customers. It's a changed world.
peculiarbird 9y ago
Steve jobs is rolling over in his grave right now..... Just think about how Apple use to be back in the day and how they were all about being free and open.... and now this. Steve Jobs would've never supported this in a thousand years. I have lost so much respect for Tim Cook
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  1984 Mac ad, anybody?
  - analog31 9y ago
    The 1984 Mac was a closed system -- about as forbidding as a system could be for independent developers.
tardygrad 9y ago
I think any vision of an open and equal Internet is going to fail in the long term, not only because it does not work in the interests of governements and major corporations - but also because people don't want it. China explicitly censors its Internet as a way of control, whereas in the west news agencies implicitly censor news through selective reporting and giving greater weight to stories that support the narrative they want to push. I'm not convinced one is any worse than the other, the west is slightly better in that you may not be sent to jail over a dissenting opinion - but good luck trying to effect any kind of change.
- wybiral 9y ago
  There's a big difference between state censorship and news companies being biased in what stories they promote. I think you're distorting the lines between the internet as a communication network and the news industry who uses that network to distribute content.
- woodandsteel 9y ago
  >in the west news agencies implicitly censor news through selective reporting and giving greater weight to stories that support the narrative they want to push. Except in the west there are countless alternative news sources that freely present other views. But I bet you already knew that.
  - zentiggr 9y ago
    Not so many, really... Look at the TV/radio/news markets and see how many voices there are. And the FCC loosening rules to let Sinclair etc own a higher percentage of sources in each market is only letting it get worse.
- jeffdavis 9y ago
  "but good luck trying to effect any kind of change" One US president has already been kicked out of office due to jounalists, and we may see it happen again in the near future. What do you think would happen to those journalists in China, and how effective do you think they would be?
grandalf 9y ago
China has been bravely dealing with a rampant "fake news" problem for decades, and should serve as a model for US regulators and social media companies.
- nikster 9y ago
  They're working on it...
miles 9y ago
The WP article links to a Bloomberg article[0] which boasts a more straightforward headline: Cook Kisses the Ring [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-04/cook-kisses-the-ring https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-04/cook-kiss...
- tootie 9y ago
  Savage. This is part of the reason I don't use Apple products unless I have to.
  - theshrike79 9y ago
    What products do you use then? Chinese-made Android phones?
teknologist 9y ago
Time to switch to Android. If Google have one thing going for them it's that they don't give face to this brainless bullshit.
- gkanai 9y ago
  > Time to switch to Android. Fwiw, the CEO of Google was at the same event. So... no difference.
  - teknologist 9y ago
    Oh I don't doubt that all of these people were there, but the facts remain And it doesn't necessarily imply that they all had secret meetings with Xi, which Tim did.
    - aylmao 9y ago
      Or maybe their meetings were, you know, actually secret.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
thisisit 9y ago
> Alongside Cook in endorsing China’s digital vision were officials from countries such as Saudi Arabia and Serbia, it noted. Not the examples I want to use to show the "openness". The interesting thing for me is we have to celebrate "open internet vision" in 2017. So, is China admitting they were not open in last couple of years?
dingo_bat 9y ago
This is looking like the show Mr Robot when the UN passes a motion to allow China to annex Congo. It's fucking preposterous.
- 50CNT 9y ago
  Wait, they're straight up annexing it in the show? That's ridiculous. Not like they don't own it already though.
  - dingo_bat 9y ago
    Yeah it seemed utterly ridiculous in the show. But looking at Tim Cook sucking it up like this publicly it doesn't seem so far off now.
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freewizard 9y ago
Yes, shame on Cook to kiss the ring, but Apple gets to bring its top notch service and product to Chinese users, set the fine example of what brand, quality, design and technology can achieve. What have Google achieved for Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago? Lack of competition brought new height of profit to Baidu and continuous damage to users[1][2], I certainly don't blame Sergey Brin for that[3], but nothing for Chinese users to cheer on that either. Innocent age of Internet has died. I don't think there a right answer for Cook, but there're probably some worse answers, I'm grateful he did not take those and people who I care about can still buy iPhones in China. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baidu/baidu-promotes-fake-drug-sites-chinese-tv-station-idUSTRE66I1HK20100719 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baidu/baidu-promotes-fake... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/baidu-being-investigated-after-student-dies-taking-experimental-cancer-drug-found-on-the-site-2016-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/baidu-being-investigated-afte... [3] https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-sergey-brin-on-googles-china-gambit/ https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-sergey-b...
- theWatcher37 9y ago
  Say what you want, but the buck ultimately stops at the feet of the Chinese people who allow this gross injustice.
  - bsder 9y ago
    Standing in front of a gun is a difficult sale to the man who isn't starving.
  - tensitors 9y ago
    An injustice that lifts hundreds of millions out of poverty...
- jeswin 9y ago
  > What have Google achieved for Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago? They earned the respect of many people, who are used to continually seeing corporations sell out their values for profits. Getting out of potentially the biggest market in the world because of incompatible values = courage. As opposed to removing a headphone jack from a phone.
baxtr 9y ago
Is amazon trying to hit Apple hard? This is the second critical article about Apple on the same day. Where are the articles about amazon‘s practices?
TXV 9y ago
Tim Cook went there to get humiliated. Given what's at stake for his company, I doubt he had alternatives. I guess that's what a CEO would do. However by giving that speech he accomplished nothing but to confirm that he holds no ground against his local competitors whatsoever, and the article correctly points this out. China keeps laughing in the face of the West. The weakness and passiveness of western "democracies" is astounding, but no wonder that when you spend all your time to play internal politics there's little time left to envision an international strategy. I wonder what it'll take for Western governments to get their stuff together and elaborate a response.
- corey_moncure 9y ago
  >The weakness and passiveness of western "democracies" is astounding It's frustrating for me too, but having spent a significant amount of time in both China and the USA, I can say with absolute conviction, I'd still rather live in the USA. But consider this. The only reason we tolerate their shenanigans is that they offer their unwashed masses to us as the 21st Century-equivalent of slave labor. Look at what is happening to their lands, waters, and sky. There is no doubt that China continues to be exploited, continues to remain in the position it has always occupied in dealings with the west.
- zoltaan 9y ago
  "Given what's at stake for his company" Reputation. Towards wealthy and relatively wealthy, ideology sensitive western customers who can afford the luxury of climate awareness (manifested in prominently declared environmental friendly approaches from Apple), demanding freedom ... and the premium level of Apple products! Towards those who made Apple successfull and give the bulk of the income - yet. All this in a period when Apple's reputation is corroded somewhat anyway.
skc 9y ago
People lap up Apple's PR about how altruistic they are especially in the US, but then use the "but the shareholders" cop out with regards to anything to do with China.
- brynjolf 9y ago
  Anything that even questions a company's moral and ethics and holding them accountable always gets the ol' "Shareholder, only for profit duh". Ok we understand that, but I'm still saying it is not Ok.
- che_shirecat 9y ago
  Apple's tax evasion to the tune of billions has been going on for years, it's a shame that their "Double Irish" evasion scheme revealed in the Paradise Papers has flown relatively under the radar
thewhitetulip 9y ago
I am from India and people always look at China and say "look at how that country progressed". I always cringe at that statement. A country is not judged by how well it treats it citizens during the fun times, it is during the unrest that their treatment matters. I'd rather prefer a cycle than the 400kmph trains Chinese have but I want the freedom of speech I get in India. (of course 2014-current we don't have much freedom of speech, but this is a democracy and will always stay a democracy.)
- pedrogpimenta 9y ago
  > and will always stay a democracy This you can't really say, can you? :(
  - thewhitetulip 9y ago
    See, the most 'powerful' leader we had after Indira Gandhi was the current PM and he used to have public support because everyone was thinking that he'd do his magic. But he won't be able to become a dictator. The loophole which Indira Gandhi used to form Emergency was removed and there is little chance that someone like her will be born, go to the top of a national party, win election and then form a coup. Our armed forces are controlled by the President who, usually is voted from the outside, she ain't just a rubber stamp. Plus, not to mention, we don't have a democracy, we have an oligarchy, the politicians own businesses everywhere and the big business houses own all political parties so even if we became a dictatorship, the big business houses will be the ones to lose, at least one of them and that's all it takes to form a coup to kill the dictator.
    - Bobbleoxs 9y ago
      Years ago, I walked into a pharmacy in London. The Indian owner was having a chitchat and told me they invaded China with no troops using Buddhism. The ignorance and arrogance were just unbelievable.
- staticelf 9y ago
  Same here, I'd rather live in the forest in a hut like a poor farmer as long as I have the freedom to do or say whatever I want to. I have a hard time understanding why people value stuff over freedom.
r3pl4y 9y ago
Apple is turning into the definition of the "big evil" that MS used to be 15 years ago
vfulco 9y ago
You sold your soul Tim for the bottom line. Enough of the charade and just admit it. No one believes you.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  The problem is that many people do believe his bullshit.
VeronicaJJ123 9y ago
I recently met Chinese Commissioner at a party and he told me that the political class thinks of censorship as a weakness in their society and is fully aware that it is going to hit them badly. He was like the censorship is more driven by vested and corrupt interests more than competence of the communist party.
- tensitors 9y ago
  I think it depends on the type of censorship and what the purpose is. Just look at the colonial mentality of neighboring countries, where simply being from "the West" gives you huge perks.
- daemin 9y ago
  It could, but in a way it's currently acting like import tariffs but for the Internet. It's making it easier to create and run a local clone of an international company than to import the international company's services to use locally. So if or when censorship goes down, it will be Chinese companies that will be more powerful on the Internet, not western ones.
  - VeronicaJJ123 9y ago
    BS. China ends up paying huge cost for this censorship which the government too acknowledges. Youtube sensations are softpowers. A kid can learn million skills by visiting youtube. If you don't have that you have a backward society. China is wasting useful capital on reinventing the wheel that could have gone into building something even greater. (Do we really save $10 by cutting our own hair at home?)
    - daemin 9y ago
      Yes you could argue that China is paying a higher cost now, but their goal is to protect and nurture their own industries so that those industries can dominate the world later on. It's like South Korea in the 1960's and later from what I've read. The government invested and subsidised (i.e. protected) their young growing industries so that they could grow to be competitive on the global market. The USA did likewise when it was young, with tariffs on imported goods, blatant copying of intellectual property, etc.
enitihas 9y ago
It seems the world has come full circle. This seems to be a close analogue of the Macartney Embassy(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macartney_Embassy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macartney_Embassy) that went to China in 1793. Except that now the kowtow has been replaced by placating speeches.
margorczynski 9y ago
I've always wondered why the western countries didn't take a much harder stance on China's anti-competitive practices. Chinese economy might is basically (or was) built with western capital (intelectuall also) and a lot of it was stolen. Or they only saw short-term profits even though in the long run it will bite them hard?
patkai 9y ago
The only solution is to own your company, otherwise an impersonal set of shareholders own you. The IPO removes moral degrees of freedom. Everyone, build SMEs!

319 points by tony101 9y ago

China is a well run country, but most countries seem that way with 5%+ economic growth YoY. In reality, it’s slowly becoming a prison of 1.3 billion people that is gently closing its maws on them. Life is good, growth is great, but whenever the next crisis comes, which it will, the government will not be replaced like in Democracy but actively fight back, with technology developed by the best American companies. From there, they will probably close down and self-seal their economy like the Soviet Union did with some success, and embark on a period of profound killing as a means of control.

Aloha 9y ago
I see no basis in reality for this claim. China is more open now, than it has been at any point since 1949 - and it continues to liberalize things - just very very slowly.
- selectodude 9y ago
  I think most would agree if was more open under Hu than it is now under Xi. They’re moving in the wrong direction.
  - pas 9y ago
    Could you give examples? What was better under Hu?
- yeukhon 9y ago
  "Liberalize things" can you cite any, because as someone who is familiar with China, Xi's regime is less liberal than ever. The country does welcome foreign investors, but that's about it (and that comes with a lot of restrictions).
  - vkou 9y ago
    > Xi's regime is less liberal than ever. How so?
    - eric-hu 9y ago
      The HK bookstore owners disappearing come to mind.
      - tensitors 9y ago
        And they were released and allowed to tell their story. If this incident happened any time before Xi, would the outcome have been the same?
        yeukhon 9y ago
        Why registered a new account to comment on this? You can't be serious right? They told a story based on a script. Sorry, I cannot trust someone who just created a new account to make a comment like this.
        paradite 9y ago
        And they were released and allowed to tell their story. If this incident happened any time before Xi, would the outcome have been the same?
        yeukhon 9y ago
        They were released because the mainland government was forced to explain why the owners were arrested (but a lot of people believe they were kidnapped). In particular, one of the owners is a British citizen. While pro-mainland argued that the owners were arrested lawfully, the truth is not. > It was widely believed that the booksellers were detained in mainland China, and in February 2016 Guangdong provincial authorities confirmed that all five had been taken into custody in relation to an old traffic case involving Gui Minhai. How could all five be detained in relation to an old traffic case? Most importantly, there was no evidence of these owners leaving HK, so how did they end up in China? All five of them? Plotting against mainland? Why would a traffic case warrant this kind of arrest? Let's face it, if this was a local traffic incident in U.S., there would be no manhunt at this scale.
- nailer 9y ago
  Corruption is still endemic, as is natural in dictatorships. It's punished very publically when it's revealed, but that's likely to be the tip of the iceberg.
- cromwellian 9y ago
  Really? VPNs banned, Skype banned (recently), and in Xinjiang province, forced installation of backdoors. China has the largest surveillance state of any country internally now under Xi, things have gotten far more locked down since he became President.
thisthatandthe 9y ago
China is NOT well run. Life is NOT good. The growth is FAKE 7% every year. There was a very recent event happening in Beijing kindergarten regarding sexual abuses....and the authorities CLAMPED DOWN ON THE MEDIA and DENIED IT TOOK PLACE. http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/rumors-11292017123013.html http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/rumors-11292017123013.... Why do you think the rich and the intellectuals are fleeing the country? Polluted air, polluted water, polluted food, hidden poverty, censorship, police state, the list goes on and on....
- ztratar 9y ago
  Those sure are a lot of sensationalist claims. Can you provide evidence for your "FAKE" 7% YoY growth statistic? I know plenty of traders & Americans doing business in China who'd disagree with you. I understand why people would flee -- the pollution is insane. But still, by all measures I've see the economic growth is quite real.
- client4 9y ago
  I've spent the better part of my last few months in China, Beijing and Shanghai specifically. China just speed-ran the industrial revolution at 10x the size of the US and is about to surpass us in the next era of energy, renewable energy. Beijing pollution is still bad. But it's 1/2 of where it was at 4 years ago, and will likely be non-existent in the next 10 years.
  - bduerst 9y ago
    Yeah, I'm with you on this one. Most westerners' impressions of China are 10 years behind. There's always been a ton of, "Just wait until the sky falls China won't be prepared" doom saying but as a controlled economy they've become the largest producer of green energy in the world, and are racing to produce the first general A.I.
- aylmao 9y ago
  It's finals season in college so of course I just wrote an essay about this whole thing. I have 3 points to make; 1. I think people need to think of this in the historical context. China has always been closed to the West. The only time they really "opened up" it was because they were forced to after the opium wars, and they lost much of their sovereignty to European spheres of influence that ultimately wrecked them economically. Being closed has historically worked for them and not being so hasn't, so is it such a surprise they want to remain closed? 2. Economically it makes tonnes of sense to do this, and to be honest, I believe that's the main reason they're doing it (more so than to stop criticism's of the party or try to hide stuff). They're beating the West at their own game. Their country has so many people they don't need international markets; China has more people than Europe and North America combined! France, for example, will likely never get it's own Facebook, Uber or Amazon because Facebook, Uber and Amazon are free to operate there, and as long as these big players hang around (which they will, indefinitely) there will be little space for a competing product to develop. This means France, - Will have tech startups, but never with "Silicon Valley" level size or growth. - These services in France will be highly dependant on USA policy - Most importantly, there will be less incentive for certain types of engineering to grow in France. Like, will France ever have a hub for self-driving car research if there's no French Uber/Lyft/etc? Will it ever have as many self-driving car specialists? If there are engineers interested in this, they will most likely come to the US and work here. China is protecting itself from brain/idea/high-skilled-job-drain by ensuring local alternatives grow within its borders. It wants to be a tech hub, and this is really the best if not only way to do it when it comes to software tech. 3. Stability. We might call it censorship and control, and we might be right, but especially after the Russian involvement in the USA's latest presidential elections and how easy it was for them to reach their audience online [1], do they not have reason to be paranoid? It's in the interest of Russia to have Trump as president, and, tbh, to split the American people and have in-fighting. And apparently it's not hard for them to make this happen in this connected world. Propaganda can come from both within, and outside. I'm not trying to say that this is the best approach or that everyone should do this, but there's definitely more to it than "China is evil and wants to brainwash people isolating them from the outside world". Information can definitely get in and out of China; I think the historical, economic and defensive reasons make more sense in explaining China's approach. They're just being protectionist. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/30/facebook-russia-fake-accounts-126-million https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/30/facebook-...
forapurpose 9y ago
> China is a well run country While I generally agree with your point, I don't know if I accept this premise. Would citizens in Tibet agree, for example? Hong Kong?
- richardknop 9y ago
  Depends on who you ask. Lots of mainlanders live in HK now. I'd assume most young HK-ers are still against China but if nothing changes slowly the HK will be assimilated and mainstream opinion will align more with mainland Chinese as time goes on.
  - forapurpose 9y ago
    > but if nothing changes slowly the HK will be assimilated and mainstream opinion will align more with mainland Chinese as time goes on With due respect, that's a prediction without a basis, not evidence or an argument.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - richardknop 9y ago
      It's actually my opinion. I'm not claiming it is a provable fact. It is just what I think might happen in next 50 years let's say. HK has been independent for a long time and been given back to China quite recently so I think 100 years from now if it stays as part of China it would be much less independent. For example, take a look at Kaliningrad which is completely Russian now. Or other parts of Europe which were assimilated when taken over by bigger nations/states.
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        It’s very possible. Especially if the HKers move away. Funny, the doom and gloom predicted for 1997 did come eventually, just 20 years later.
      - 9y ago
shubhamjain 9y ago
Next few decades would be interesting. China definitely had the upper hand in industrialisation with little to no opposition to its policies and infrastructure infrastructure projects. It still has it. But, it seems they have firm belief in tightening their rein. India, on the other hand, while at least a decade behind, is a less restrictive system by design. If it takes few steps right, India could be a less frightening alternative for future investments.
- cannonedhamster 9y ago
  Heck if India could fix it's power issues and network peering issues they'd catch up pretty darned quick.
- sremani 9y ago
  India is a fragmented country and Modi has to win another term impressively to get any kind of "true" reforms. Even if he succeeds, its the South and West leading the economy and Hindi heartland playing catch-up in spite of being political and population center. India will develop unevenly Gujarat, Maharashtra, TN, AP will forge ahead. The interior will have lesser impressive growth. As long as India periphery is culturally diverse from Hindi core, India is not going to get anywhere. It will grow and medium pace and will make it to middle income in 2040, but nothing stellar.
  - dgaaaaaaaaaa 9y ago
    > As long as India periphery is culturally diverse from Hindi core, India is not going to get anywhere. Could you elaborate on why that might be?
    - likelynew 9y ago
      That was a racist comment. He/She was referring to Hindi belt, which contains UP, Bihar, MP, the capital Delhi and likes. Many of the regions are poorest in India. This is commonly referred to as core of India.
legulere 9y ago
The Chinese government is directly drawing its legitimacy from the betterment of the Chinese population and this seems to be also the government’s own understanding of the situation.
luvbb 9y ago
> it’s slowly becoming a prison of 1.3 billion people that is gently closing its maws on them. China has a long and established history of replacing governments that are unfair to their people. It's just, why would you overthrow a government bringing in so much economic growth. Once that growth slows down their government will get away with less civil rights violations.
bobjordan 9y ago
Go on with your science fiction plot. "In reality" it's not like that at all. Have you ever been to China?
hnarn 9y ago
> China is a well run country, but most countries seem that way with 5%+ economic growth YoY. What most people don't seem to understand is that China's growth is largely based on the fact that it started off, very recently, from such a low baseline. Big percentage increases are a lot easier when you go from nothing, that doesn't mean you'd want to be a country that recently started from nothing.

tr4cefl0w 9y ago

“The theme of this conference — developing a digital economy for openness and shared benefits — is a vision we at Apple share,” Cook said, in widely reported remarks. “We are proud to have worked alongside many of our partners in China to help build a community that will join a common future in cyberspace.” I don't even know how to react to his friendly remarks towards China. Is it to keep the government happy and keep profiting from the Chinese market? That would make sense. But sometimes I feel like he's become too friendly.

bhrgunatha 9y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow#Diplomacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowtow#Diplomacy
gcb0 9y ago
are they hinting about leaving China. Why else would he use a term like "cyberspace" in this day and age? Or did he speak in chinese and this is a bad translation?

slimsag 9y ago

It seems from my perspective that Cook knows that technology alone will help expand viewpoints of people within China, which will ultimately lead to more democracy in general. I think it's unfair to assume that if Apple was to outright leave the Chinese market that this would somehow change China's stance on censorship. Instead, it will just likely cause competition to fill the gap as already is the case with many things in China's tech scene today. So what do people think is the right choice for them? Leave China all together and say "no way, we won't be here unless the internet is totally open" or "we'll accept it.. for now"?

peculiarbird 9y ago
That has been American thinking leading up to this point in time and guess what? IT ISN'T WORKING AND IT WONT WORK. China has their own culture and traditions and that won't just change because we trade with them or Apple sells stuff there.
- slimsag 9y ago
  I don't think using caps helps your argument. Just saying that something isn't working doesn't mean there is a better option, either. Do you think there would be a different outcome if everyone pulled out of China completely and they do everything on their own without any external influence?
  - peculiarbird 9y ago
    The caps were to emphasize my point it wasn't meant to advance my argument Yes I don't think that bowing to blatant censorship is a good option. He is enabling the suppression of free speech to make sure his stock doesn't drop. There are some cases where trading with China would be fine but selling products to wall off free speech is not one of them
    - dang 9y ago
      > The caps were to emphasize my point That's explicitly against the site guidelines, so can you please not do it here? It's basically yelling. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

emmelaich 9y ago

Is he naive or greedy? Or is this actually a good thing? I don't know. Combine this with the other story on the front page where Apple shares the wireframe of your face. Not reassuring.

richardknop 9y ago
Possibly neither of those two (I doubt he is naive and I don't think he's greedy, he has FU enough money and could retire and never work again if he wanted to). He's just doing what Apple shareholders want, i.e. sell Apple products in biggest mobile phone market in the world.
M4v3R 9y ago
It doesn’t share the wireframe of your face. It shares a generic face wireframe morphed to fit on your face. This wireframe lacks details that could be used to identify you in a way FaceID does. This is not worse than letting the developers access front facing camera to take a picture of your face.

EZ-E 9y ago

Tim Cook wasn't invited for his beliefs, but to give face to the Chinese government. Chinese internet is as closed as it gets. Any foreign company eating up the market share of a local company will get blocked eventually or be forced into merging into a local entity. For now it really is open in one way : Chinese companies are welcome to compete in the whole world, but China won't let you be a competitor of the local companies Cook is "forced" into this monkey dance because he's deeply entrenched into the Chinese market. He only has little leverage : the jobs he creates in China and the money he makes there. He has to comply to local laws, even though it interferes with his own point of view because lots of money is at stake. He can't say it in this conference

thisthatandthe 9y ago
any company stupid enough to go to China and give up its intellectual properties deserves to die. 1.3B people?! let me get a piece of that. Oh, and let my stuff get copied and stolen, and I'll lose the US market and the entire world market, which is way bigger than the Chinese market.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 9y ago
  We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines. Nationalistic rants aren't welcome here.
  - cisanti 9y ago
    What is wrong with nationalism? You really have the censor dick deep up your white ass.
longcheng 9y ago
Isn't it a common practice to follow the local law wherever you do business and make money? Google was allowed to operate in China, and it decided it did NOT want to follow the law and quit. Google was an underdog in Chinese search anyway when it operated in China. It simply failed to compete against Bidu. Amazon has been operating in China since 2000ish. It failed to compete against Alibaba and Jindong. Facebook will definitely lose to Tecent/Weixin in China market even if it is allowed. Cisco lost to Huawei everywhere in the world except in US, where Huawei is forbidden... Microsoft and Apple are doing well in China because they follow the local law and actually create value to local customers. It's a changed world.

peculiarbird 9y ago

Steve jobs is rolling over in his grave right now..... Just think about how Apple use to be back in the day and how they were all about being free and open.... and now this. Steve Jobs would've never supported this in a thousand years. I have lost so much respect for Tim Cook

lern_too_spel 9y ago
1984 Mac ad, anybody?
- analog31 9y ago
  The 1984 Mac was a closed system -- about as forbidding as a system could be for independent developers.

tardygrad 9y ago

I think any vision of an open and equal Internet is going to fail in the long term, not only because it does not work in the interests of governements and major corporations - but also because people don't want it. China explicitly censors its Internet as a way of control, whereas in the west news agencies implicitly censor news through selective reporting and giving greater weight to stories that support the narrative they want to push. I'm not convinced one is any worse than the other, the west is slightly better in that you may not be sent to jail over a dissenting opinion - but good luck trying to effect any kind of change.

wybiral 9y ago
There's a big difference between state censorship and news companies being biased in what stories they promote. I think you're distorting the lines between the internet as a communication network and the news industry who uses that network to distribute content.
woodandsteel 9y ago
>in the west news agencies implicitly censor news through selective reporting and giving greater weight to stories that support the narrative they want to push. Except in the west there are countless alternative news sources that freely present other views. But I bet you already knew that.
- zentiggr 9y ago
  Not so many, really... Look at the TV/radio/news markets and see how many voices there are. And the FCC loosening rules to let Sinclair etc own a higher percentage of sources in each market is only letting it get worse.
jeffdavis 9y ago
"but good luck trying to effect any kind of change" One US president has already been kicked out of office due to jounalists, and we may see it happen again in the near future. What do you think would happen to those journalists in China, and how effective do you think they would be?

grandalf 9y ago

China has been bravely dealing with a rampant "fake news" problem for decades, and should serve as a model for US regulators and social media companies.

nikster 9y ago
They're working on it...

miles 9y ago

The WP article links to a Bloomberg article[0] which boasts a more straightforward headline: Cook Kisses the Ring [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-04/cook-kisses-the-ring https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-04/cook-kiss...

tootie 9y ago
Savage. This is part of the reason I don't use Apple products unless I have to.
- theshrike79 9y ago
  What products do you use then? Chinese-made Android phones?

teknologist 9y ago

Time to switch to Android. If Google have one thing going for them it's that they don't give face to this brainless bullshit.

gkanai 9y ago
> Time to switch to Android. Fwiw, the CEO of Google was at the same event. So... no difference.
- teknologist 9y ago
  Oh I don't doubt that all of these people were there, but the facts remain And it doesn't necessarily imply that they all had secret meetings with Xi, which Tim did.
  - aylmao 9y ago
    Or maybe their meetings were, you know, actually secret.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

thisisit 9y ago

> Alongside Cook in endorsing China’s digital vision were officials from countries such as Saudi Arabia and Serbia, it noted. Not the examples I want to use to show the "openness". The interesting thing for me is we have to celebrate "open internet vision" in 2017. So, is China admitting they were not open in last couple of years?

dingo_bat 9y ago

This is looking like the show Mr Robot when the UN passes a motion to allow China to annex Congo. It's fucking preposterous.

50CNT 9y ago
Wait, they're straight up annexing it in the show? That's ridiculous. Not like they don't own it already though.
- dingo_bat 9y ago
  Yeah it seemed utterly ridiculous in the show. But looking at Tim Cook sucking it up like this publicly it doesn't seem so far off now.

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freewizard 9y ago

Yes, shame on Cook to kiss the ring, but Apple gets to bring its top notch service and product to Chinese users, set the fine example of what brand, quality, design and technology can achieve. What have Google achieved for Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago? Lack of competition brought new height of profit to Baidu and continuous damage to users[1][2], I certainly don't blame Sergey Brin for that[3], but nothing for Chinese users to cheer on that either. Innocent age of Internet has died. I don't think there a right answer for Cook, but there're probably some worse answers, I'm grateful he did not take those and people who I care about can still buy iPhones in China. [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baidu/baidu-promotes-fake-drug-sites-chinese-tv-station-idUSTRE66I1HK20100719 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-baidu/baidu-promotes-fake... [2] http://www.businessinsider.com/baidu-being-investigated-after-student-dies-taking-experimental-cancer-drug-found-on-the-site-2016-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/baidu-being-investigated-afte... [3] https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-sergey-brin-on-googles-china-gambit/ https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-sergey-b...

theWatcher37 9y ago
Say what you want, but the buck ultimately stops at the feet of the Chinese people who allow this gross injustice.
- bsder 9y ago
  Standing in front of a gun is a difficult sale to the man who isn't starving.
- tensitors 9y ago
  An injustice that lifts hundreds of millions out of poverty...
jeswin 9y ago
> What have Google achieved for Chinese users by quitting China 7 yrs ago? They earned the respect of many people, who are used to continually seeing corporations sell out their values for profits. Getting out of potentially the biggest market in the world because of incompatible values = courage. As opposed to removing a headphone jack from a phone.

baxtr 9y ago

Is amazon trying to hit Apple hard? This is the second critical article about Apple on the same day. Where are the articles about amazon‘s practices?

TXV 9y ago

Tim Cook went there to get humiliated. Given what's at stake for his company, I doubt he had alternatives. I guess that's what a CEO would do. However by giving that speech he accomplished nothing but to confirm that he holds no ground against his local competitors whatsoever, and the article correctly points this out. China keeps laughing in the face of the West. The weakness and passiveness of western "democracies" is astounding, but no wonder that when you spend all your time to play internal politics there's little time left to envision an international strategy. I wonder what it'll take for Western governments to get their stuff together and elaborate a response.

corey_moncure 9y ago
>The weakness and passiveness of western "democracies" is astounding It's frustrating for me too, but having spent a significant amount of time in both China and the USA, I can say with absolute conviction, I'd still rather live in the USA. But consider this. The only reason we tolerate their shenanigans is that they offer their unwashed masses to us as the 21st Century-equivalent of slave labor. Look at what is happening to their lands, waters, and sky. There is no doubt that China continues to be exploited, continues to remain in the position it has always occupied in dealings with the west.
zoltaan 9y ago
"Given what's at stake for his company" Reputation. Towards wealthy and relatively wealthy, ideology sensitive western customers who can afford the luxury of climate awareness (manifested in prominently declared environmental friendly approaches from Apple), demanding freedom ... and the premium level of Apple products! Towards those who made Apple successfull and give the bulk of the income - yet. All this in a period when Apple's reputation is corroded somewhat anyway.

skc 9y ago

People lap up Apple's PR about how altruistic they are especially in the US, but then use the "but the shareholders" cop out with regards to anything to do with China.

brynjolf 9y ago
Anything that even questions a company's moral and ethics and holding them accountable always gets the ol' "Shareholder, only for profit duh". Ok we understand that, but I'm still saying it is not Ok.
che_shirecat 9y ago
Apple's tax evasion to the tune of billions has been going on for years, it's a shame that their "Double Irish" evasion scheme revealed in the Paradise Papers has flown relatively under the radar

thewhitetulip 9y ago

I am from India and people always look at China and say "look at how that country progressed". I always cringe at that statement. A country is not judged by how well it treats it citizens during the fun times, it is during the unrest that their treatment matters. I'd rather prefer a cycle than the 400kmph trains Chinese have but I want the freedom of speech I get in India. (of course 2014-current we don't have much freedom of speech, but this is a democracy and will always stay a democracy.)

pedrogpimenta 9y ago
> and will always stay a democracy This you can't really say, can you? :(
- thewhitetulip 9y ago
  See, the most 'powerful' leader we had after Indira Gandhi was the current PM and he used to have public support because everyone was thinking that he'd do his magic. But he won't be able to become a dictator. The loophole which Indira Gandhi used to form Emergency was removed and there is little chance that someone like her will be born, go to the top of a national party, win election and then form a coup. Our armed forces are controlled by the President who, usually is voted from the outside, she ain't just a rubber stamp. Plus, not to mention, we don't have a democracy, we have an oligarchy, the politicians own businesses everywhere and the big business houses own all political parties so even if we became a dictatorship, the big business houses will be the ones to lose, at least one of them and that's all it takes to form a coup to kill the dictator.
  - Bobbleoxs 9y ago
    Years ago, I walked into a pharmacy in London. The Indian owner was having a chitchat and told me they invaded China with no troops using Buddhism. The ignorance and arrogance were just unbelievable.
staticelf 9y ago
Same here, I'd rather live in the forest in a hut like a poor farmer as long as I have the freedom to do or say whatever I want to. I have a hard time understanding why people value stuff over freedom.

r3pl4y 9y ago

Apple is turning into the definition of the "big evil" that MS used to be 15 years ago

vfulco 9y ago

You sold your soul Tim for the bottom line. Enough of the charade and just admit it. No one believes you.

CaptSpify 9y ago
The problem is that many people do believe his bullshit.

VeronicaJJ123 9y ago

I recently met Chinese Commissioner at a party and he told me that the political class thinks of censorship as a weakness in their society and is fully aware that it is going to hit them badly. He was like the censorship is more driven by vested and corrupt interests more than competence of the communist party.

tensitors 9y ago
I think it depends on the type of censorship and what the purpose is. Just look at the colonial mentality of neighboring countries, where simply being from "the West" gives you huge perks.
daemin 9y ago
It could, but in a way it's currently acting like import tariffs but for the Internet. It's making it easier to create and run a local clone of an international company than to import the international company's services to use locally. So if or when censorship goes down, it will be Chinese companies that will be more powerful on the Internet, not western ones.
- VeronicaJJ123 9y ago
  BS. China ends up paying huge cost for this censorship which the government too acknowledges. Youtube sensations are softpowers. A kid can learn million skills by visiting youtube. If you don't have that you have a backward society. China is wasting useful capital on reinventing the wheel that could have gone into building something even greater. (Do we really save $10 by cutting our own hair at home?)
  - daemin 9y ago
    Yes you could argue that China is paying a higher cost now, but their goal is to protect and nurture their own industries so that those industries can dominate the world later on. It's like South Korea in the 1960's and later from what I've read. The government invested and subsidised (i.e. protected) their young growing industries so that they could grow to be competitive on the global market. The USA did likewise when it was young, with tariffs on imported goods, blatant copying of intellectual property, etc.

enitihas 9y ago

It seems the world has come full circle. This seems to be a close analogue of the Macartney Embassy(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macartney_Embassy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macartney_Embassy) that went to China in 1793. Except that now the kowtow has been replaced by placating speeches.

margorczynski 9y ago

I've always wondered why the western countries didn't take a much harder stance on China's anti-competitive practices. Chinese economy might is basically (or was) built with western capital (intelectuall also) and a lot of it was stolen. Or they only saw short-term profits even though in the long run it will bite them hard?

patkai 9y ago

The only solution is to own your company, otherwise an impersonal set of shareholders own you. The IPO removes moral degrees of freedom. Everyone, build SMEs!