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Why ProtonMail is more secure than Gmail

• pushcx 9y ago
  This post would be improved by discussing that their [threat model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model) is so different than Google's that it regards some of Google's business practices as threats. And that, in turn, there are threats that Google treats as much bigger threats, bringing their own world-class security team to. Calling this fundamental difference in approach "more secure" manipulates the less-informed instead of educating and almost eliminates the chance of a worthwhile conversation about tradeoffs and values that could be very flattering to ProtonMail.
  • someguydave 9y ago
    That's a fair criticism. I don't think the Gmail glossy brochure mentions its threat model either.
    • blfr 9y ago
      They do for their new Advanced Protection Program[1]. The regular Gmail service is not really marketed to the security concious users. It's like comparing Android to Qubes OS. Not really fair. For what they are, Google products are surprisingly secure. [1] https://landing.google.com/advancedprotection/ https://landing.google.com/advancedprotection/
      • feld 9y ago
        Qubes has a nice fat attack surface known as the hypervisor. I'm skeptical when people point to this as the panacea of computing security.
        • blfr 9y ago
          In practice it's a rather thin attack surface and serious cloud providers rely on it so it's both well-tested and any exploit can be used on much more valuable targets than your OS. It's not a panacea. There are physical threats, there are threats from the very hardware you're using. But, like it says on the box, it is a reasonably secure operating system.
        • _e 9y ago
          Yes, Qubes is only as secure as Xen which, itself, has had some pretty big security flaws pop up [1]. At the end of the day one has to decide what kind of trade offs they are willing to make in order to balance simple UX and security. [1] https://blog.quarkslab.com/xen-exploitation-part-2-xsa-148-from-guest-to-host.html https://blog.quarkslab.com/xen-exploitation-part-2-xsa-148-f...
          • arghwhat 9y ago
            And, in turn, as secure as the hardware, with ROWHAMMER giving means to flipping bits in arbitrary memory locations, including recent work showing that one VM can flip bits in another.
          • kakarot 9y ago
            For Qubes 4, they are planning to deprecate the Xen paravirtual drivers in favor of the HVM drivers. These drivers are much more battle-tested and less complicated than PV drivers. Also, with their recent foray into enterprise support, they will hopefully be able to expand their auditing efforts in the next couple of years.
        • mcny 9y ago
          I think the parent was talking about sandboxing and permissions
        • userpass 9y ago
          That sounds to me like a very small attack surface. Updating a hypervisor is far easier than e.g. updating hundreds of statically compiled executables.
      • mzzter 9y ago
        Does anyone have experience using Google’s advanced protection service? I’m wondering if it’s worth managing the dongles.
        • tonyztan 9y ago
          I signed up last week and it isn't inconvenient at all. Security keys are only used when you first sign in to a device, after which devices are "remembered."
      • DavideNL 9y ago
        > "Google products are surprisingly secure" For one their products are not "secured" from Google seeing your private data...
        • bascule 9y ago
          Neither is ProtonMail. They see all email plaintexts unless you're using end-to-encryption like GPG/PGP. They only encrypt data at rest, and we can only take them at their word that they're even doing that.
          • bigiain 9y ago
            They claim (tho I haven't confirmed myself) to do encryption at the device - automatically between Protonmail accounts (right now though, they do not support sending pgp encrypted email to a protonmail account with a keypair not generated by them... Which seems a _very_ odd design decision): In simple terms, end-to-end encryption means that messages are encrypted on the sender’s device (before it even leaves their computer or mobile phone), and can only be decrypted by the recipient on their device. This means that no third party which transmits or intercepts the email between the sender and recipient (i.e. internet service providers, the NSA, or even ProtonMail as the mail server operator) can decrypt and view the message. This powerful protection is possible because ProtonMail has PGP email encryption built-in. End-to-end encryption is done automatically without user interaction whenever messages are exchanged between ProtonMail users. For an enterprise using ProtonMail for their email hosting, this means all communications between employees are automatically protected with end-to-end encryption. ProtonMail can also support sending/receiving end-to-end encrypted messages with recipients who are not using ProtonMail. The use of end-to-end encryption makes ProtonMail a better choice for security conscious individuals and organizations.
            • OoooooooO 9y ago
              Using keypairs generated by them is the same as not encrypting the emails at all ...
            • msl09 9y ago
    • adjkant 9y ago
      Gmail isn't floating around any brochures on security though - it's pitch to the majority of its users is "It's Google and Mail and where most people have their emails. You don't want to be that one weirdo at @yahoo.com do you?" and that just about does it. ProtonMail is trying to recruit users with the brochure. That said, even though the argument is a bit flawed here, I think most attracted by it would still prefer ProtonMail for other sound arguments.
      • matt_wulfeck 9y ago
        Do you really believe people use gmail because of its brand? I don't know about any security brochure, but I know I can setup 2FA to use push notifications (not an insecure SMS number), and can check where all of my logins are from, and have "suspicious" logins blocked automatically, etc, etc. I can also create single-use passwords for insecure devices (such as a youtube password just for my apple TV). Not to mention how amazing they are about spam detection. I think their security posture is actually excellent.
        • efitz 9y ago
          There are absolutely people (many of them) who use GMail because of its brand. They most commonly will say "GSuite" though.
        • adjkant 9y ago
          Yes, absolutely. I would guess at least 90% of the users are simply there by defaulting to it. The tech community is not the target market for Gmail. I never said they had bad security, simply that they were not advertising and trying to attract users from it.
        • turc1656 9y ago
          Do you really believe people use gmail because of its brand? Yes. Most definitely. I don't use Gmail and I recently had a discussion with my coworkers about Gmail. When I asked why they use it one person said, "because it's Google" and another said, "What else would I use? Yahoo or Hotmail? Hahahah". A third person responded by saying , "it's just easy because it's Google so it connects to everything else from them."
  • pvg 9y ago
    A missing threat model gives this more credit than it merits. You can replace 'zero knowledge' with 'military grade' and it will be just as meaningful (if somewhat more obviously poor). Plus, you could say they are describing a threat model. If ProtonMail were compromised in this one particular way the confidentiality of your mail would be 'stronger' or 'improved'. This should be as reassuring as 'Switzerland', which is, of course, also trotted out.
    • arghwhat 9y ago
      ProtonMail has a publicly available threat model: https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-threat-model/ https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-threat-model/ Without a threat model (that is, the set of threats that one is trying to secure a system against), you have no idea what someone means by "secure". It could mean unpickable doorlocks, it could mean unbreakable windows, it could mean angry-Hippopotamus-proofing. It could mean that you smelly farts can't escape your pants. Any claim of security without a threat-model is in the most literal sense meaningless. And don't get me started on "Military Grade Encryption", which is a term that at this point should give you a sense of concern, rather than safety.
      • pvg 9y ago
        Any claim of security without a thread-model I'm not sure I understand what your counterpoint here is since we seem to be saying the same thing but I had to go back and fix 'thread model' twice myself. An underestimated threat model to commenting about threat models!
        • arghwhat 9y ago
          I am sorry, I misread your comment slightly, which resulted in the polar opposite meaning. English is a fun language. :)
  • fauigerzigerk 9y ago
    That sounds a bit formalistic and abstract to me. Perhaps you could educate us on which specific threats you think we should pay attention to when choosing between Gmail and Protonmail. What are some specific threats that Gmail defends us against more effectively than Protonmail?
    • metalliqaz 9y ago
      Off the top of my head I think the number 1 "threat" that Google doesn't protect you from is privacy. They are actively watching your email with algorithms to use for advertising purposes. On the other hand, they have more resources than anyone else to protect against things like DDOS, nation-state hacking/phishing, and physical disasters. They also have a legion of lawyers to protect against improper legal requests, however they will roll right over for a government if it's legal. Protonmail is on point with the privacy, but their security engineering team is probably less than 1/10th that of Google's.
      • fauigerzigerk 9y ago
        I think the right size of any security engineering team is largely determined by the diversity of threats it has to defend against. Same for the legal team. So team size alone doesn't convince me one way or the other, even if I were to completely disregard all privacy issues. I am a Gmail user as is my company, so I do trust them quite a bit. But I feel that Google has a much bigger problem on its hands than Protonmail. Both because of its business model and because Gmail does things like search and spam filtering, which Protonmail cannot do. [Edit] Protonmail actually does spam filtering.
      • kbyatnal 9y ago
        Except this is no longer true. Google does not read your gmail anymore. https://blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in-the-enterprise-g-suites-gmail-and-consumer-gmail-to-more-closely-align/ https://blog.google/products/gmail/g-suite-gains-traction-in...
        • njarboe 9y ago
  • HenryBemis 9y ago
    It can be simplified to: Gmail + 0$ per month = zero privacy for you and anyone who emails you, plus Uncle Sam has full access to your life. Protonmail + 4$ per month = you will never see ads for a <insert_item_name> like the one you just bought, plus you will be driving Uncle Sam crazy!
    • 3pt14159 9y ago
      Uncle Sam can root your machine. If Uncle Sam is the threat vector you're better off using pen and paper.
      • dredmorbius 9y ago
        That costs Uncle Sam resources at scale.
      • tonyztan 9y ago
        Uncle Sam can't root everyone's machines at once. If Uncle Sam wants mass surveillance it's going be through the provider.
        • ChuckMcM 9y ago
          Intel Management Engine.
          • kuschku 9y ago
            That is only remotely exploitable if you use Intel network cards. There’s a reason all my systems use other cards, and are behind a hardware firewall specifically configured for my use cases.
            • squarefoot 9y ago
              There is still a possibility, a scenario only a crazy conspiracy theorist could imagine a few years back, but I believe the current development of closed chipsets could soon allow remote penetration into any machine using any network card by any vendor, and in a way that nobody can even sniff the suspicious traffic over the network. It seems really complicated, if not impossible, but I'm starting to think it can be done if one has full access to the chipsets and their firmware (users, admins and developers don't, vendors and their "partners" do). Let's assume a system where every piece of hardware has a closed device driver, or part of it, CPU included. We're there, or very close. It's not that hard to imagine a system within the system that can access data (hard drives have closed blobs), read passwords before they are encrypted through keylogging (USB sniffing), make screenshots of the desktop (video card closed blobs) and send them wherever they're instructed to (network card blobs), not to mention downloading and executing arbitrary code. Now one could object that the traffic could be easily intercepted, but what if all network chipsets of all vendors, including those inside routers, had a small set of instructions to intercept any magic packet satisfying some rules and treat it differently. Let's say send it to some hardcoded addresses without counting them or reporting them to user applications; even leds on front panels would not report those packets passing through. The only way to realize something fishy is going on would be by tapping physically into the network cable using non-network dedicated chipsets, say very fast digital analyzers, decode all traffic and match it with what a normal sniffer would report. I admit this is a crazy scenario, but if an entity with nearly infinite resources had the power to force any hardware vendor to put spying hardware/firmware into every machine, wouldn't it attempt to do something like that?
• amelius 9y ago
  Very nice. One question though: how can we check if what they say is true? Is their client open-source? Also, would it be possible that if I open an email on an Android device, that Google still could read the email?
  • scandox 9y ago
    https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient
  • orwin 9y ago
    For the first question: https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient For the second, it is unlikely, spying on third party app is not in the ToS of android, and if google (or any big tech company, really) is caught doing something not in the ToS, it will cause a PR shitstorm. I have a Proton Mail account since 2014, but i never really used it. I might give it a try again today.
    • amelius 9y ago
      Ok. But for the first question: is the protocol free? Because if it is proprietary and limited to this one service, I fear that at most a few people will be interested in digging through the source code.
  • toast0 9y ago
    On a phone with Google Play Services, I think Google essentially has root, and can access whatever they like, so it's possible; but it's unlikely. Google is more likely to read the email if the content is posted into the notification feed, or the android search apis.
• devmunchies 9y ago
  I'm a paying user, and have to say, I think I may want to give up this extra security for Google's world class spam filtering.
  • gourou 9y ago
    Also their search engine doesn't include attachments
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • gcb0 9y ago
    you might want to check yahoo mail then. I work for them (oath now). and at some point all employers were forced to dogfood it. the UI took a while to get used, but now I miss in app tabs witg several emails (in Gmail I need browser tabs). ...Long story short: after yahoo was acquired we moved to gmail. you cannot belive how much more spam shows up on my imbox that I had never seens before. not to mention yahoo took the high road on properly fighting spam for everyone, even if made them loose some users using misconfigured email lists.
    • 1024core 9y ago
      I would like to respectfully disagree about spam on Yahoo mail. I have so much spam there, you won't believe. And what irks me the most is that a lot of it is easy spam: viagra, etc.
      • gcb0 9y ago
        well, you have one anecdotal data point with two different email addresses, while I was providing a fact on 10,000 users with the same email addresses on both platforms. my guess, you probably had the y email much longer than the g one (yahoo mail is a decade older) and you posted that email in too many geocities guestboards. do the same with your g address and report back in 10 years :)
    • ocdtrekkie 9y ago
• mping 9y ago
  zero knowledge encryption means that there's no search functionality right?
  • scandox 9y ago
    I'm going to guess they implement something client-side using maybe IndexedDB or something?
    • aneutron 9y ago
      Had the same idea when I read the comment. However, training your ML models in the browser is probably not the best thing you could do. Granted, it could potentially offer a more personalized service.
      • nevir 9y ago
        Search doesn't really need ML to be effective
        • aneutron 9y ago
          If you search for travel, and the SE brings up all your reservations from flights, ferries, bus, etc. It requires some sort of ML. Stupid example but you get the point.
  • orwin 9y ago
    You can't search content. This is the main reason i had trouble switching to ProtonMail in 3 years.
    • g4k 9y ago
      You can use the (beta) ProtonMail bridge to sync your emails into Thunderbird and search there.
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• corobo 9y ago
  Hows the spam filter? I fell in love with the idea of switching to other services before on their marketing copy but I'm back in Gmail. It all rests on how good the spam filtering is by default not after I've received x good and y bad emails. Unfortunately in this case it sounds like there might be a tradeoff between securing my internet postcards[1] and training spam filters. [1] and that's all they are really, postcards. We've known that for decades, you can't patch envelopes over emails at this point.
  • acidburnNSA 9y ago
    > by default not after I've received x good and y bad emails That's fair for you to demand. I run my own personal email server with SpamAssassin and I definitely got a lot of spam in the first week. Then I told SA to learn what spam and ham looks like based on what I received and it's been excellent ever since. I have retrained it about once every 2 years but it's really not that bad. Personally, I'm happy to manually filter a handful of spams and then have top-notch filtering plus added privacy.
    • corobo 9y ago
      Yup essentially my requirements are simply "I don't want to spend time on my spam filter" In a previous life/job I set up, administered, and maintained mail servers. I don't have an exact count but high tens to low hundreds over multiple clients. I think that's one skill I'm completely burned out on for personal use. Capable, but not willing.
  • pmlnr 9y ago
    Better than gmail for certain. The false positive rate in gmail is outrageous.
• robin_reala 9y ago
  Unfortunately this doesn’t work with IMAP. That’s understandable given the encryption at their end, but it does tie you into their apps.
  • drdaeman 9y ago
    It certainly does, but require client software that's capable to decrypt the data. I think almost every desktop mail client support S/MIME. Many support PGP/MIME, using plugin/extension or natively. Unfortunately, the situation is much worse on mobile. Anyway, if the client software is capable - which is rarely true but sometimes is the case - any classic mail server can store everything encrypted. If you self-host - just make your MDA pipe the unencrypted emails to GnuPG or OpenSSL (and encrypted emails are already okay) and that's it. You'll be as good as ProtonMail (note: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/does-protonmail-encrypt-email-subjects/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/does-protonmai...). IIRC, there also was some hosted email service that works this way, although I forgot where I saw it and how it was called.
    • robin_reala 9y ago
      Right, I was going by their knowledge base article titled ‘IMAP, SMTP, and POP3 setup’ where they say: At this time Protonmail does not support IMAP/SMTP or POP3 due to the technology ProtonMail utilizes within web browsers to encrypt and decrypt your messages. We apologize for the inconvenience and are working on creative solutions to allow IMAP/SMTP use. https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/imap-smtp-and-pop3-setup/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/imap-smtp-and-...
      • protonmail 9y ago
        https://protonmail.com/bridge https://protonmail.com/bridge
        • drdaeman 9y ago
          Oh, that's awesome idea! If it uses IMAP4 variant under the hood and not completely different/proprietary API - are there any plans of possibly releasing this as a standalone tool someday? I don't use Protonmail, because I already have self-hosted own-premises mail system for a long while, but I don't have encryption at rest. Given that you use OpenPGP, this bridge app looks very interesting. If it only could talk to a local gpg-agent as an option (rather than an PM account), it would be probably just perfect.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• reacharavindh 9y ago
  The engineer in me loves the promised End-End encryption and all the cool stuff. But, the inconvenience of "unable to search contents of emails" is a deal breaker towards encrypted email for me. My primary concern was Google/Microsoft scraping my emails to build a profile of me. My emails could give away very personal information that I do not want to be used for advertising. My money finally went to Fastmail. Excellent email service - just works and doesn't try to be super smart and take over the world.
  • duality 9y ago
    Didn't Google stop scanning Gmail for ads targeting? https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/technology/gmail-ads.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/23/technology/gmail-ads.html
    • nevir 9y ago
      They still scan email for product features. Travel receipts for things like "my flights" & Google Now, etc
    • rurban 9y ago
      More importantly they give any government agency free access without any warrant to fulltext search any customer. US law interpretation of IMAP. Only with a POP3 service you are safe.
      • skybrian 9y ago
        "Without any warrant": what do you mean?
        • linkregister 9y ago
          Under the Stored Communications Act, law enforcement may get emails or other information under third party control with only a subpoena. Retrieving email via the POP3 protocol typically deletes the email upon retrieval, making it impossible for the third party to comply with requests for already-retrieved emails.
• SaltySolomon 9y ago
  So, do they employ spam filters and they can still read messages before they encrypt them if the come from a third source, right?
  • maxk42 9y ago
    Yes and yes. The utility is not in magically making every email sent to or from you unreadable to 3rd parties. The utility is purely on the side or privacy intrusion: be it via court order or hacker. Nobody can compel them to decrypt any messages that have been sent to or from you and stored on their servers. Protonmail will NOT: Prevent interception of your messages by 3rd-party MITM attacks. Protonmail WILL: Protect your privacy versus legal authorities. Safeguard your stored communications against hacker breach. Provide a high-quality, ad-free email experience and multiple email addresses.
    • SaltySolomon 9y ago
      My point is being that they could be compelled to hand over all future messages to your account, because if they are doing spam detection then they will have it in a readable unencrypted state.
• matt4077 9y ago
  Oh, wow. This makes me want to switch our work email away from Protonmail... * If you are not comfortable giving Google unlimited access to all of your intimate communications* Who would? But this is a sleight-of-hand where we somehow got from "google targets advertisement based on email content" all the way to "everyone working at google reads your email, and they all make fun of what you did last night". By those standards, Google also reads everything on protonmail. At least if you use Chrome. Besides, there are other factors than just encryption standards that impact security. The largest of all is the organisation you're trusting. Google is obviously far ahead in terms of expertise and resources. They also have far more to lose, are probably better set up to protect against rogue insiders, and are impossible to compromise with money. OTOH, they're subject to FISA courts and whatnot.
• onychomys 9y ago
  It's so cute that they think that the NSA can't read PGP-encrypted messages.
  • flashdance 9y ago
    There is no evidence that PGP is compromised. In fact, the snowden leaks revealed that the NSA has "serious problems" following people through TOR, and is unable to decrypt some OTR and PGP encrypted messages. https://www.theverge.com/2014/12/28/7458159/encryption-standards-the-nsa-cant-crack-pgp-tor-otr-snowden https://www.theverge.com/2014/12/28/7458159/encryption-stand...
    • thrownsjdke 9y ago
      Right, Snowden weakened US national security. He clued in the public to important secrets related to our intel operations, and ticked off public backlash against our intelligence agencies. Now, Snowden sits comfortably in a country who is actively hacking us. I’d bet my life that high school students from St. Petersburg have more reverse engineering skills than all US undergrads, at least those who are now interested in supporting US intelligence operations. Why HN praises Snowden, who committed treason against this country, is beyond me. It seems that Snowden is part of an effort to divide and wreck the culture of this nation. Russians, on the other hand, are fairly unified in their fight against us. I keep encountering smart folks in this country who could help US national security but won’t on moral principles. Such a mentality was catalyzed by his actions.
      • vk23 9y ago
        It's a question of perspective. The US government and the NSA commited treason against basically every person using the internet. Also you calling him "Snow dawg" says a lot about you...
        • thrownsjdke 9y ago
          I’ve edited the post. Just a guess based on your username. Are you Russian?
• the_common_man 9y ago
  Does 'millions of users' mean active users? Like those who login everyday?
• sixothree 9y ago
  I have to mention the Direct Project. This is secure email that is in use today by a vast number of healthcare professionals. https://www.healthit.gov/providers-professionals/faqs/what-direct-project https://www.healthit.gov/providers-professionals/faqs/what-d... It uses trust bundles that hold the public key. Identity is vetted so there is no spam and it helps guarantee you are communicating with the right person. https://www.directmdemail.com/info/how-it-works/Direct-exchange https://www.directmdemail.com/info/how-it-works/Direct-excha... edit: I would also like to add that the direct trust model is starting to get used for things outside of email.
  • rrggrr 9y ago
    What is a "trust bundle"?
    • sixothree 9y ago
      To add to the trust bundle a vendor needs to be accredited. The trust bundle holds the public key for every "email" address.
      • Niten 9y ago
        So it's a PKI, except obfuscated by a bunch of health industry acronyms and "accredited" logos?
        • sixothree 9y ago
          It always surprises me how little this tech community knows about the Direct Project, especially considering how many hundreds of thousands of people have direct addresses assigned to them. This thing is in production very wide usage by health industry. And the applications for it continue to grow. For example FHIR via Direct promises to empower patients. But yes, this particular implementation especially is PKI with identity vetting. There are other trust bundles with different logos and requirements. But the direct project defines more than just the PKI. It defines edge protocols such as XDR and IMAP. It also defines methods for message delivery and processed notifications. And of course you can create your own trust bundle with whatever requirements you want. This particular accredited portion means that these organizations have particular identity vetting processes for users, have on site visits to inspect servers, and adhere to a long list of privacy and security practices.
• StavrosK 9y ago
  Does anyone know how they reconcile "zero-knowledge" and allowing people to log in? Do they encrypt your private key with a KDF of your password or something?
  • tonyztan 9y ago
    They use SRP for authentication, and yes, your private key is encrypted with a key derived from your passphrase. https://protonmail.com/blog/encrypted_email_authentication/ https://protonmail.com/blog/encrypted_email_authentication/
    • StavrosK 9y ago
      I see, thanks. So they use SRP with the password to authenticate, and then KDF(password) to decrypt your email (as they say). I would hope (and they probably do) use the latter to decrypt an encryption key for your email, rather than using your KDFed password directly, as that would mean they'd need to reencrypt all your mail if you changed your password.
• idontgetproton 9y ago
  I don't understand this. Let's say I receive a newsletter from some website. That newsletter is not PGP-encrypted, so at some point the Proton Mail servers must be able to see a plaintext version of it. That means I have to trust that they never store that plaintext version. In addition, even if they immediately encrypt it and store the encrypted version, how can they do so such that only I can read it? Is the key generated from my password? How come it's possible to reset my password with a recovery email address then? Surely they must be storing the key somewhere, in which case storing encrypted messages is pointless. EDIT: apparently my second point is incorrect, forgetting your passphrase will indeed leave your emails permanently encrypted. The first point still stands though, it's not zero-knowledge at all if they receive the plaintext of my private emails in the first place and I have to trust that they don't store it.
  • dannyw 9y ago
    The key is indeed generated from your password - to be pedantic, the key is encrypted by your password with a hardening function. I believe a copy of the key is sent to the recovery email. Not completely sure, I haven’t entered one.
    • tonyztan 9y ago
      The key is not sent anywhere. Your recovery mail allows you to recover access to your account, but not access to your keys. So if you ever lose your password you will also lose the ability to decrypt your mail.
  • kijin 9y ago
    In asymmetric encryption, the key for encryption is different from the key for decryption. You can encrypt something without being able to decrypt it, or vice versa. You can encrypt your "master" key with another key derived from your password. When you change your password, you just decrypt and re-encrypt the master key so that it doesn't have to change. The combination of these two techniques in one form or another is responsible for much of modern computer security, including the encryption used on this very website.
  • 9y ago
• rbcgerard 9y ago
  For any ProtonMail users - what do you do for calendar?
  • khana 9y ago
    A separate app: Calendar.
  • dredmorbius 9y ago
    Use an independent calendar app or system (e.g., paper).
• partycoder 9y ago
  Just a reminder that for it to work both the recipient and sender need to use Protonmail... across the full e-mail thread.
  • tonyztan 9y ago
    All your emails are stored encrypted with your public key when on ProtonMail's servers. And they do support end-to-end encryption with other email providers (with a user-specified passphrase).
    • brightsize 9y ago
      FWIW, ProtonMail also allows you to export your public key from their service. People who you give the key to can use it to send PGP encrypted mail to your ProtonMail mailbox. Unfortunately this isn't bidirectional, there's no built-in way to send PGP-encrypted emails from your ProtonMail account to non-ProtonMail users.
• geofft 9y ago
  Threat model, threat model, threat model. There are some people for whom "The government is literally after me, personally" is a valid threat model. There are some people for whom "Google employees with privileged access to Gmail are conspiring to be after me, personally" (one assumes there's a two-person rule for access to individual inboxes or deploying code that scans inboxes) is also a valid threat model. However, those people should consider that the government will be willing to use either software 0-days or algorithmic 0-days to attack them (see e.g. Stuxnet taking out Iran's nuclear program using a previously unknown method of generating SHA-1 collisions, that looked kind of like how the academic community knew to generate collisions but with a different fingerprint), in the government case. Or that any interaction with anyone who uses Google must be avoided, in the Google case. See e.g. https://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-because-it-has-all-of-yours https://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-be... For normal people (which includes me and probably everyone else commenting here)? Google seems at least as likely, probably a tiny bit more, to protect me from threats like "A personal relationship has gone bad and someone who isn't a government and isn't Google is trying to impersonate be me" or "I don't want to lose access to my email" (remember that availability is a part of security!).
  • jstanley 9y ago
    > "I don't want to lose access to my email" (remember that availability is a part of security!). Really? You've heard just as many stories of unexpected Google account closures as I have. I'm quite confident ProtonMail just don't do that. And if they did, you'd have a much more credible chance of talking to a human and rectifying the situation.
    • datawarrior 9y ago
      Actually ProtonMail does do this. They can't read your email so they can't know if you're actually abusing it via their terms of service. Thus if you file complaints against users ProtonMail will actually suspend the account without evidence until you clear your name. It's abused fairly regularly in fact.
      • 9y ago
• bad_user 9y ago
  Encryption is cool, but in terms of security, Google probably hires more security researches than the entire staff of ProtonMail. > Protected by ... European privacy laws So is GSuite (https://gsuite.google.com/ https://gsuite.google.com/) > No conflict of interest There is no conflict of interest with G Suite either, which is governed by a different Terms of Use than normal Gmail. If that wouldn't be the case, being the "business" version, G Suite would be banned in most European companies.
  • ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    Bear in mind, European privacy laws only help you with Google (or other US-based providers) if you're a European citizen (via things like Privacy Shield). Whereas with ProtonMail being located in Europe, they're likely to be better protected from US law enforcement requests as a whole. US providers have no obligation to provide US citizens European-quality privacy protections.
• rahiel 9y ago
  The end-to-end encryption is only between protonmail addresses, in practice when you email people with gmail/hotmail/yahoo etc. it doesn't matter if protonmail can't read the e-mail, the other party can. (Their solution for that is to send an e-mail that contains a password-protected link with the actual message [0], I find this procedure inconvenient.) Gmail could be as secure as Protonmail by using PGP yourself [1]. And then you can keep your desktop mail client. Also Google won't need to pay criminals if they're DDOS attacked like Protonmail in the past: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/11/05/protonmail-pays-to-stop-ddos/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/11/05/proto... (this is when I gave up on Protonmail) [0]: https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/encrypt-for-outside-users/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/encrypt-for-ou... [1]: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/
  • endijs 9y ago
    I wanted to touch this part: "And then you can keep your desktop mail client." . Actually you can use your desktop mail client with ProtonMail too. All you need to do, is install ProtonMail Bridge. It's in closed Beta right now, but it works pretty well (i'm using with Thunderbird).
  • tonyztan 9y ago
    Regarding DDOS, ProtonMail has since installed a mitigation system to prevent this. https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/email-ddos-protection/ https://protonmail.com/support/knowledge-base/email-ddos-pro...
  • ryacko 9y ago
    STARTTLS is used though.
• Spooky23 9y ago
  The meaningful differences come with costs too. “Zero knowledge” of email content means I can’t search my corpus of email without having all of that mail on a PC with a client that has a search feature. What’s a bigger risk to you? “End to end encryption” We’ve all had the PGP discussion. That adds a lot of complexity and a lot of cost and risk. Good luck searching it. “TLS transport” Welcome to 2017, this isn’t meaningful. It sounds like Proton Mail is a cool service. But that security comes at a capability cost and comes with other complexity that users may not understand.
  • protonmail 9y ago
    We are close to solving the search issue actually. With the ProtonMail Bridge, full body search can happen locally so the servers can remain "zero knowledge".
• trey-jones 9y ago
  I've used ProtonMail for some small number of communications, and I really like it for limited use. I can't speak to using it for everyday email purposes.
• Flimm 9y ago
  What are the security guarantees when emailing someone who does not use ProtonMail? If there is an encrypted mode, can this mode be turned off? This is critically important, and yet most of these email providers who talk up their security fail to bring it up. This article is the same.
  • tonyztan 9y ago
    From the article: "ProtonMail can also support sending/receiving end-to-end encrypted messages with recipients who are not using ProtonMail."
    • Flimm 9y ago
      The article doesn't make it clear what this support looks like. If it's optional and complicated, people are not going to use it. And if it's different than what ProtonMail uses internally, all the promises about security might not apply.
  • dredmorbius 9y ago
    Effectively, none, as with any messaging outside a secured perimeter. Protonmail doesn't afaict encrypt to external keys (PGP, GPG, SMIME), so you're limited to the remote provider's capabilities and practices. (I'm a Protonmail user.)
  • cevn 9y ago
    When you send an email through ProtonMail to an unencrypted user, you have the option to encrypt the email when sends them a link to a webpage prompting them for the encryption password.
• zabuni 9y ago
  Web based encryption. Pointless. If you trust them enough not to send you bad Javascript, you trust them not to read your emails. You trust them with your private keys. If you trust them with all that why even encrypt the mail client side?
  • Caprinicus 9y ago
    It's not about whether you trust them not to read your emails, its about whether they would be able to turn them over to anyone with a valid request. The decryption is local, they could send modified code specifically to you that returns whatever password you type in, but there's no legal mechanism for forcing that in switzerland and I imagine that practice wouldn't go unnoticed if they did it to comply with every request they got.
  • joefreeman 9y ago
    Yep. And the same argument applies to their apps. We need an open standard with an app built by a trusted third party.
    • ZenoArrow 9y ago
      For email clients, Thunderbird is still being developed (latest release was from less than a month ago): https://www.mozilla.org/en-GB/thunderbird/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-GB/thunderbird/ Also, the V1.0 release of Mailpile is meant to be coming soon: https://www.mailpile.is/ https://www.mailpile.is/ https://github.com/mailpile/Mailpile https://github.com/mailpile/Mailpile For setting up your own email server... https://mailinabox.email/ https://mailinabox.email/ http://www.iredmail.org/ http://www.iredmail.org/
  • snowpanda 9y ago
    To be fair, ProtonMail Bridge is available in beta for all paid members right now, which will allow you to use it with Thunderbird. https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/77ifdx/protonmail_bridge_is_here_for_windows_and_mac/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/77ifdx/protonma...
  • beingmyself2 9y ago
• datawarrior 9y ago
  I gave up on ProtonMail. The lack of a calendar means you often need to go back to using Google Calendar or Outlook.com Calendar, kind of negating the privacy benefits if you're a heavy calendar user. Secondly, its been years and you still can't store more than a single email address for a contact. This is so incredibly ridiculous that I have an extremely hard time understanding how they get away with charging what they do. Lastly, the mobile app drives me nuts. I just can't get used to using it. You delete a message and a notification pop down drops from the top covering the next email so that you can't select it until the pop down notification goes away. This is deal breaking for me as if I have to go through 20 emails I have to sit and wait over and over and over again for this notification to go away. Yes, a message was deleted, I'm the one that deleted it, I don't need a notification telling me I did so. Infuriating to use.
  • LeifCarrotson 9y ago
    Why would you expect an email provider to also provide a calendar? There are many business, coordination, and communication tools that could be in my mail client (I do a lot of billing over email, is an email provider unusable if it doesn't integrate Quickbooks-like functionality too? What about shipping/receiving, project management, phone, SMS, mapping, etc, all things related to my use of email?), but I don't think they need to be there. Calendar protocols are not federated like email. Choose between Exchange, Google, and iCloud. You'll have an easier time if you use the same one as most of your contacts. Choose the best tool for the job. It's not likely that one provider will have the best tool for everything that, say, Outlook does.
    • the_stc 9y ago
      >Why would you expect an email provider to also provide a calendar? Because calendar has become a key part of a productivity suite and Email is the keystone. We use Protonmail right now to avoid Google or Fastmail or someone serving up all our emails in a warrant. We keep sensitive stuff off Protonmail of course but every bit helps LE build their case against us. Protonmail should have calendaring, wiki, and on and on. An encrypted replacement for Exchange eventually. We disable all audiovideo hardware for core members but I can see even secure voice being useful for our contractors to use.
• darkhorn 9y ago
  May be ProtonMail is owned by CIA. Who knows.
• pcrock 9y ago
  Anyone remember HushMail? The end-to-end encrypted email service that didn't have the ability to decrypt your emails? They were eventually coerced to change their code and record passwords in order to gain access to an encrypted email account. ProtonMail is the same thing, give or take, just in Switzerland. They can be coerced just like anyone else. People whose lives are dependent on secure communication still need to manage their own PGP keys. Once protonmail makes it possible to use your own email client with your own keys, then I'd say it's worth trusting.
  • tonyztan 9y ago
    I'm not sure there is a legal mechanism to force ProtonMail to add a backdoor... > "Nearly every country in the world has laws governing lawful interception of electronic communications. In Switzerland, these regulations are set out in the Swiss Federal Act on the Surveillance of Postal and Telecommunications Traffic (SPTT) last revised in 2012. In the SPTT, the obligation to provide the technical means for lawful interception is imposed only on Internet access providers, so ProtonMail, as a mere Internet application provider, is completely exempt from the SPTT’s scope of application. This means that under Swiss law, ProtonMail cannot be compelled to backdoor our secure email system." https://protonmail.com/blog/switzerland/ https://protonmail.com/blog/switzerland/
    • heisenbit 9y ago
      Not all governments restrict themselves to legal means. Turkey for example has recently started abusing Interpol search warrants to go after people outside their jurisdiction. The country of citizenship is usually clued in and is resisting but dare to go on vacation in a another country. Not all actions of the US government have survived legal review and some may argue the latest administration is more prone to such accidents.
      • kazen44 9y ago
        But then it becomes more a question of politics instead of (inter)national law. Heck, the EU and US are already not on good terms on the subject of privacy/intelligence gathering, so i doubt this would be done so easily. Especially with the current US administration.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• ninegunpi 9y ago
  While I love ProtonMail as an effort to popularize security for end-users and trying to come up with smart technologies to achieve that, the whole risk model behind the writeup barely stands scrutiny. What's worrying, ProtonMail (who declare security a first-class feature) use "features" instead of systems to define security of their service. If you think of it for a second, web crypto (protection against intermediaries and dishonest server) actually requires trusting the server, so no encryption-derived claims are sound if the server is dishonest. Any third party exploiting (or forcing legally) the server can make it dishonest and collect required keys in few simple steps. And, FWIW, if encryption is controlled by browser, adversary compromising the client itself can simply disable it. So, while the effort is very important (and I bet they'd be around the first people who will suggest techniques for safe in-browser crypto execution), it isn't that they can be compared security-wise other than: - ethics - security policy - competence of security teams. Isn't a level playing field for ProtonMail. And, my final problem is, 99% of people are still outside Protonmail anyway, hence the intolerant winner argument, which ruined PGP and will ruin many optional security systems on top of convenience protocols in the foreseeable future.
  • rbcgerard 9y ago
    +1 while it's nice that you're email at rest is secure most of your personal email is getting sent to someone with a gmail account anyway - perhaps defeating the whole exercise
  • protonmail 9y ago
    PM team here, we just made an account to comment. We actually agree with some of the points made above, but we'd like to add the following commentary... Encrypting email while making it more usable than PGP is hard. There's no getting around that. Web crypto is always going to have some shortcomings, but web mail is on the rise, and at the end of the day, web crypto is better than no crypto. That said, we have been working for some years towards moving ProtonMail encryption entirely to the local environment using our Bridge application, which will be released soon. There is also extensive R&D being done on end-to-end authentication and ensuring key validity. You are correct in that it is not a level playing field. This is why the tech industry is fast becoming an oligarchy or even a monopoly, owned and controlled by a few big players. However, we think that not playing is taking the easy way out, so even though the game is 'rigged' against us, we have a great team of engineers who have decided to play anyways.
• mungoid 9y ago
  I have a paid account and only use protonmail for business and personal emails and use Gmail for anything else. 95% of the emails I get are junk anyway so I just try to separate that even more. It seems most people care more about spam filters and search functionality than security. Which is kind of a downfall of protonmail because it probably will never have high adoption because if you want good search and spam filters then it means your emails need to be scanned by the servers. Most people have multiple email accounts anyway, so why not use protonmail for the important emails and another service for junk account signups and everything else?
• dk28 9y ago
  but what if it's just another NSA project?
• uptown 9y ago
  Here's the thing with email. You can sign up for Protonmail ... but you've still got to use email to correspond with others. And in all likelihood many of those individuals will be on GMail or some other less-secure provider unless you're using Protonmail as an enterprise solution, in which case the ratio of "secured" vs. "unsecured" recipients would likely tilt towards secured. Email is insecure, and most users don't even consider security when using it. I've seen my own social security numbers sent out via email. I've seen corporate card credit card numbers sent via emial. I've seen other confidential financial documents and a myriad of other things sent via email by people who didn't know or didn't care that the method of transmission isn't secure because frequently it's not their information at risk. In my experience, medical data is treated differently because there are laws around how it can be communicated and stored. Until there's regulation placed around other pieces of information, and those laws get enforced, I don't know that people will change how they use and abuse email.
  • MHLoppy 9y ago
    This was probably the biggest unsolved issue I had when seeking out a new email provider. "Switch to this other email provider" is not going to get much of a result from your gmail/outlook-using contacts (especially if money is involved), and wouldn't even solve this issue unless you convert absolutely everyone to, for example, Protonmail. "Hey man can you set up this thing called PGP?" is probably even worse unless your social circle is all technically minded already. Even in a group of "nerds that play video games", I'd be surprised if even half of the group even know what PGP is. So long as we're stuck with email as we know it today, it really seems like there is just no bolt-on solution that can be used to "fix" it.
  • DINKDINK 9y ago
    >And in all likelihood many of those individuals will be on GMail or some other less-secure provider unless you're using Protonmail as an enterprise solution This is true of the marginal utility of the first and last element in a network effect. We might as well push for a paradigm where hosts have no access to data rather than, in 1950 say "Why should I join the internet, there are no other computers on it"
• edf13 9y ago
  Zero Knowledge Encryption So what happens if, say a hacker breaches the systems and makes an interception at the SMTP level... before they encrypt? They then can read your mail before ProtonMail encrypts it... There is a lot of marketing bumpf on this page without any link to detail.
• cwyers 9y ago
  I would not view being hosted outside of the US as an unalloyed good, especially for a US citizen. Legally, the NSA has a much freer hand in terms of surveillance of targets outside of the US. Putting your e-mail traffic outside of the US is no guarantee of anything, it's a set of tradeoffs. As others have noted, security isn't absolute, and depends on your threat model.
  • kazen44 9y ago
    For a non US citizen however, Not having your mail hosted in the US atleast makes spying not completely automatic. Because in the US, the NSA has the legal right to wiretap all foreigh communications.
• agrinman 9y ago
  "Zero Knowledge Encryption" is just a marketing term... I wish marketing would not cross wires with real crypto, it makes me skeptical that they really know what they're doing. They're not the only company doing this and they should be called out for it like spideroak [1]. ZKP[2] is real branch of cryptography and they do not use it AFAIK. [1] https://spideroak.com/articles/why-we-will-no-longer-use-the-phrase-zero-knowledge-to-describe-our-software/ https://spideroak.com/articles/why-we-will-no-longer-use-the... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  • hanru 9y ago
    It also makes me feel uncomfortable when reading zero knowledge things in non-cryptography sense.
  • dfc 9y ago
    I was just as bothered / put off by the "Zero Knowledge Encryption." But your comment is a little disingenuous. Spider Oak ultimately did the right thing and given your link it is clear you are aware that SO has stopped using the term.
• tankered 9y ago
  Protonmail is not email, and should stop misrepresenting itself as email. My favorite 'feature' of protonmail is that you can't access your messages via imap or pop, and their suggestion regarding exporting messages is: "At this time, you are able to save individual emails by using the "Print" function found inside each email in your account." Protonmail had a very weird role in campaigning against the new sigint-law in switzerland, they used it for marketing for their service... now they say it's not that bad because protonmail advises the government on it. I am very dubious of protonmail's claims. They don't release their server-side code, so nobody can audit it. There is no way to make sure a PGP encrypted message sent to a friend is actually encrypted with their public key only, you have to trust them. You are also just one XSS away from losing your private key... The reason not to open source the backend code is... terrifying: https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source/#comment-8919 https://protonmail.com/blog/protonmail-open-source/#comment-... What about the other things that are important, like does protonmail do full disk encryption? do they log ip addresses? They require you to sign up with a phone number if you use tor, but "promise" not store that. How can we trust them? Their ToS states: "you agree to not use this Service for any unlawful or prohibited activities". But hey, if Mr. Robot uses it, it must be good! They also have a very shifty claim of e2e encryption and a weird de-facto disabling the use of pgp. They do use openpgp.js, but for encrypting your mailbox, not for actually using pgp to mail other people. They do actually support incoming pgp just fine, but I like to think of e-mail is bidirectional. To be fair, that is something they've had on their roadmap, but for almost three years now. Giving up the ability to send pgp-encrypted e-email is not a great trade-off (and let's not even get started on their notion that you're somehow better off with gmail as long as you use pgp). So, trust the server, trust the HTTPS connection, trust the browser to not have any backdoors or security flaws in all extensions, and trust other apps that can access the browser's files and syscalls. Trust us, we are in switzerland. Why do people think that switzerland makes them somehow better position to deal with legal issues? Anyone from switzerland will tell you that they are not immune from evil laws and different parts of switzerland are significantly more draconian than others. Tell me how switzerland is some safe-haven that you should use as a criteria to determine your opsec. This selling point is pure snake-oil.
  • 9y ago
• chisleu 9y ago
  They don't take crypto currency :(
  • protonmail 9y ago
    We do, ProtonMail takes Bitcoin now.
• jabbabla 9y ago
  Anyone thinks this would interfere with their security? https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/6ru9pf/ive_had_enough_of_protonmail_heres_why/dl8irqq/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/6ru9pf/ive_had_... > The final nail in the coffin for me is this page right here: https://protonmail.com/blog/transparency-report/ https://protonmail.com/blog/transparency-report/ Can I draw your attention to this sentence: "After reviewing the relevant evidence forwarded by US authorities, criminal intent was apparent, so Proton Technologies AG decided to comply with the data request"
• josefresco 9y ago
  So this is ProtonMail vs Free Gmail correct? Not G Suite? Why would you compare a free service with a paid one?
  • KGIII 9y ago
    Proton has a free tier, if that helps make it more clear. Though I'm not sure that free vs. paid is such a distinguishing characteristic that makes it impossible to compare. If I give you some blueberries and you buy some from the store, you're still able to compare and contrast the two and the paid blueberries may actually be inferior to the free berries.
• TheRealPomax 9y ago
  "ProtonMail uses Zero Knowledge Encryption, which means it is technically impossible for us to decrypt user messages" is kind of false within the definition of "impossible". It is exactly as feasible for them to crack encryption as it is for any other party with an encryption and security background, so really this is "The only way for ProtonMail to read your email is by cracking it, which can be prohibitively time consuming" but really it won't be because the fact that "ProtonMail takes care of the security" means that if the service ever becomes mainstream popular, the proportion of people using easier-to-crack-than-should-reasonably-be-the-case password will skyrocket.
• plg 9y ago
  If the bulk of your correspondence is with people who have gmail accounts then guess what, you're pooched no matter what flavour of tin foil hat you wear. The biggest obstacle in becoming secure with email is all of the other people you correspond with over email.
• ryanpcmcquen 9y ago
  I like ProtonMail but ended up going with Tutanota for a few reasons: - Encrypted emails sent to non-Tutanota users are permanent (they expire at a maximum of 28 days with ProtonMail). - Tutanota has an email export feature. - Tutanota is WAY cheaper.
• woolvalley 9y ago
  One thing that frustrates me about protonmail and most other mail providers is it's limits on email aliases, even if your using your own domain. With gmail you get an unlimited number of aliases.
• coworkerblues 9y ago
  Is it actually legal to not log anything ? They specifically claim they don't log IPs, so if someone wants an email data, all they can give him is just encrypted email dumps ? how can that be a possibility ?
• literalmind 9y ago
  "Only you can read your emails" -- surely, the party receiving the email can read it too, and guess what, they are using gmail.
• binaryanomaly 9y ago
  Even as a convinced protonmail user I think this post is too much advertising focused and not addressing the facts correctly. It would be better for the reputation of protonmail if they would resist launching such campaigns and stick to the real advantages that differentiate it from the competition.
• nthompson 9y ago
  I run bandgap.io off of protonmail. I have had no problems with deliverability, have had great interactions with customer support, and enjoy using the product. After email hack after hack, I just couldn't see how I could ethically store my own users support emails unless they were end-to-end encrypted. Potential improvements: Searching the inbox isn't great, and I'd like to reduce my attack surface by moving my transactional email from sendgrid to protonmail (not yet supported). Also, it might make sense for protonmail to become an OAuth provider-I'd be willing to support it on bandgap.io
• homakov 9y ago
  > In fact, not even ProtonMail has the ability to read your messages Protonmail is a website which can read contents of your email, did I miss something?
• cookiemonster89 9y ago
  Yes, but it's missing a calendar. Definitely more secure though
• vacri 9y ago
  > ProtonMail takes the opposite approach and by default, does not monitor or record user activity, not even IP addresses. Hrm, where's the pricing? Oh, it's based on "Messages per day" and "Folders / Labels"... This doesn't detract from the meat of the article, but when user activity is involved in the pricing, you clearly can't claim 'no activity monitoring'.
• dfrankow 9y ago
  Can you search protonmail email quickly? Search is pretty useful.
• c0nst 9y ago
  ProtonMail seems very nice, however, I'm concerned about if it is truly private. ProtonMail has being known to shutdown accounts related to right wing, anti-semantic groups. Granted that those are extreme group. However, it will become a very slippery slop. http://govtslaves.com/2017-08-29-eff-warns-that-banning-extremist-websites-based-on-their-content-is-a-dangerous-slippery-slope.html http://govtslaves.com/2017-08-29-eff-warns-that-banning-extr... "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." Evelyn Beatrice Hall
• sitepodmatt 9y ago
  A heavy amount of ProtonMail's infrastructure is in New York at NYI [1] accordingly to blog posts however they say 'ProtonMail stores user data exclusively in European countries with strong privacy protections such as Switzerland.' Now I am confused [1] https://blog.fastmail.com/2017/05/13/nyi-datacentre-move/ https://blog.fastmail.com/2017/05/13/nyi-datacentre-move/
  • sitepodmatt 9y ago
    Oops I've got fastmail confused with proton
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