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The jailing of Hong Kong’s young pro-democracy leaders
- simonebrunozzi 9y agoI wish that HN titles were more explanatory - "Beijing's Heavy Hand", it refers to what?
- virmundi 9y agoHeavy handed is an adjective describing overly forceful reaction, often in policy form. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heavy-handed https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heavy-handed
- reachtarunhere 9y agoI think the parent comment meant the missing context of heavy handedness (HK) in the title.
- norikki 9y agoHow are people going to get better at English if we remove all the parts of the language that make it colorful and expressive?
- snakeanus 9y agoNobody suggested to remove any part of the English language in this topic.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- virmundi 9y agoWe knew this going in. We decided to trade human rights and to empower an authoritarian government for cheap pants and blood-electronics. I’ve prayed just now, but I did so with a new iPad Pro 12.9” in my lap. I have no idea how to help.
- mistermann 9y agoI don't think many people realize it even now. This is nothing compared to what's coming I bet.
- stevenwoo 9y agoAre you referring to Nixon/Kissinger opening up a bit with China or Clinton (mostly?) opening up trade with China or the whole process? IIRC the UK only had a 99 year lease on Hong Kong due to the western powers winning the Opium Wars and it had to go back to mainland China (unless the UK wanted to go to war again I suppose) so I was always kind of fatalistic about the fate of Hong Kong under China - it was always going to resemble the mainland governance at some point.
- khuey 9y agoHong Kong Island and Kowloon were ceded by the Qing Dynasty in perpetuity. The New Territories were leased (Boundary Street being the dividing line). Even with the New Territories though HK is dependent on the mainland for things like fresh water, so some accommodation with the PRC was going to have to be reached regardless.
- richardknop 9y agoYes but those territories were not ceded voluntarily. It was because they lost the war so as in any war, the defeated nation had to give something up. It would be different if HK was given to British as part of some deal reached by diplomacy which was not enforced as a consequence of lost war. Then you could perhaps argue that UK could keep it for perpetuity.
- angry_octet 9y agoThis is a modern re-interpretation of inter-state conflict. In the past it was widely accepted that states could resolve disputes via war. By that standard, the UK could indeed keep HK indefinitely. A post-WWI agreement, called the Kellog-Briand Pact, sets the state for multilaterism, and outlaws war for conquest. This later develops into non-recognition of illegal conquests, war crimes, etc. So, in contrast to HK, Tibet will never be part of China. But at the moment China is too rich, and Tibet to inconsequential, for anyone to make a big deal over it. There was a great discussion of this on a recent Lawfare podcast: https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-oona-hathaway-and-scott-shapiro-internationalists https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-oona-hathaway-an...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- saucymew 9y agoHighly recommend "10 Years" which captures how HK society views the near future when the Mainland presses their influence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Years_(2015_film) This is allegedly caused China to block Apple iTunes after carrying "10 Years" in their catalog. http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ibook-stores-after-launch-of-ten-years-20160423-godgyz.html http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-blocks-apple-itunes-and-ib...
- theyregreat 9y agoChina also affects Hollywood movies whom self-censor in order to not offend Chinese censors.
- eyedeally 9y ago> captures how HK society views I'm not sure if you realize that is a work of fiction based on one person's opinion, which hardly reflects the view of the "HK society" that you so grandiosely claimed. Should I take the Hunger Games seriously as capturing how Western society views the near future?
- mortenjorck 9y agoAre you saying The Hunger Games isn't a valid, as well as popular, commentary on wealth inequality and Western militarism?
- Astromystic 9y agoIdeology, religion and sovereignty pride at their best.
- codeisawesome 9y agoHuh, there’s a bug on the site, the article is dated “Oct 14 2017”, and I did a double take and checked the date on my phone.
- wmf 9y agoThat's not uncommon in paper magazines; presumably that's the date when the paper issue will be released.
- rtpg 9y ago>Wong is open about his Christian faith and how it catalyzed his activism against Beijing’s tightening control over Hong Kong. Christianity's role in Chinese society is interesting. There are something like 100 million christians in China, and based off of stories from friends, a lot of cults in that space as well. A lot of organizations play off of that. For example multi-level marketing stuff talk a lot about being children of God in their sessions in China. Considering how Christianity affects decision-making in the west, I wonder if this will in fact drive major change politically in China as well.
- fiblye 9y ago100 million isn't anywhere close to what I've seen reports of before, and I can't imagine it being true. Do you have any non-religiously motivated sources for that claim?
- etse 9y agoI'm not sure where the 100 million estimate comes from, either, but on the other hand, I have no idea what your reports have stated. I'm not clear on how religious motivation should exaggerate their data. Does it help to intentionally overreport and claim that religious people are underrepresented? Is it better to intentionally underreport and go for the angle of persecuted minority group, so that the greater international community, and perhaps even the general populace would have sympathy? Maybe both, depending on the situation. Are there studies on the difference in accounting of the number of self-professing religious believers in a population as reported by religious and nonreligious sources?
- ajdlinux 9y agoPew Forum estimates 67 million in 2011. http://www.pewforum.org/files/2011/12/ChristianityAppendixC.pdf http://www.pewforum.org/files/2011/12/ChristianityAppendixC....
- imron 9y ago> I wonder if this will in fact drive major change politically in China as well. It will change 0 politically in China. Firstly, 100 million would be close to 1 in 15 people being Christian, and Christianity is nowhere near that popular in China. That aside, even if it did get so popular that it started to become a threat (in terms of wielding political influence), Beijing would simply shut it down. See for example Falungong, which was estimated to have upwards of 70 million practitioners and was allowed (and even encouraged) for a time, but as their influence and their unwillingness to submit in anyway to government interference grew, so did tensions between the two groups, culminating in Falungong supporters staging a protest surrounding the entire central government compound of Zhongnanhai with > 10,000 supporters. The government began work to suppress and dismantle Falungong almost overnight.
- hkmurakami 9y agoThe article struck me as strangely religious in nature. Then the front page of the website showed what seemed to be a few more religious issues (assisted suicide, abortion), related articles as well. Their about page is a wall of vague text, but one of the main topic categories being "abortion" leads me to believe this is a news site centering around religious issues? Would appreciate someone filling me in on what sort of publication this is, if possible.
- ghomrassen 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_(magazine) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_(magazine)
- tryingagainbro 9y agoEveryone knew it would happen and nothing can really be done (see Tibet). No one will start a trade or real war with China . They have veto power in UN ad that makes them powerful. So reality sets in. Treaties and agreements can be enforced only with smaller nations.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago> They have veto power in UN a[n]d that makes them powerful. I'm interested in this idea. Obviously, they have veto power in the UN because they are powerful. But if they weren't already strong, how would the veto power help?
- barry-cotter 9y agoIt would help them exactly as much as it helped the Republic of China. The UN gains far more from having China than China gains from the U.N.
- dukoid 9y agoI think there needs to be a discussion about their WTO "market economy" status (for different reasons though)
- tryingagainbro 9y ago>> I think there needs to be a discussion about their WTO "market economy" status (for different reasons though) Go right ahead--if you have nothing better to do.... http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/money+talks http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/money+talks
- leemailll 9y agoThis piece is more of propaganda than anything.
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- kevin_b_er 9y agoI predict Hong Kong's Basic Law won't last the 50 years. Provides too many freedoms and human rights to the Hong Kongers.
- fatjokes 9y agoThe people of Hong Kong are hardly winning supporters within China. Much is made of the disdain that Hong Kong people have for Chinese mainlanders, but less is mentioned that it is equally true in reverse. There is a commonly held belief (which I haven't researched and thus don't know if true or not) that they didn't make nearly as much of a ruckus when they were under British colonial rule, when they were de facto second-class citizens. As such, the independence/pro-democracy movement is viewed as a Western-backed attempt to destabilize China, with supporters (generalized to the whole people of Hong Kong, depending on how many of them you believe support the movement) viewed as submissives to the West. (If you add in a racial dimension, where the Hong Kong people are Asians willing to submit to "whites" while fighting back against other Asians, adds to that disdain). Any attempts to "help", as some on this thread have suggested, is only going to help affirm this belief and harden the mainland Chinese stance against Hong Kong.
- steve19 9y agoI am not arguing for British colonization, but were they second class citizens? I believe they were British Subjects and therefor entitled to all the rights of any other British subject, or at least that of British subjects in any other British Dependent Territory.
- fatjokes 9y agoDoes a British subject have less rights than a British citizen / non-subject in that colony (e.g., the administrators)? EDIT: I asked this half rhetorically. Although I don't have citations to back it up, my impression is that natives who were colonial subjects didn't generally fare well. You may be able to argue minutae. EDIT 2: you ask a fair question, but I couldn't help but be reminded of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIvYWUVB1Ig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIvYWUVB1Ig :)
- xenyal 9y agoI'm pretty sure there were discrepancies between the two groups as seen in India during their time as a British colony.
- ksec 9y agoI dont know how to put this. Inequality, is simply the cause of all these problem. That is everything from Spain, Brexit, US ( Trump ), and Hong Kong. Housing prices is a big part of it. Because of QE, US has exported inflation around the world, along with China getting very rich since joining WTO, Pushes Asset prices to level unheard of. Now some of you may think all these are irrelevant to the post above. Most people protest and wanted democracy not because it is a noble thing to do. They want better living standard, or for Hong Kong they simply want a place to live. Hong Kong housing prices / income is 50% to double of Vancouver. And people were calling Vancouver's prices insane. They wanted their voice to be heard. And then hope some changes are being made. It was that simple, so they have hope, somewhere along the line in their future, they have hope some of these issues they have will be resolved. Look at the world right now, politician in modern world is 10 times worst then what it was 10 - 20 years ago. They act a lot slower, but thanks to technology information flow has gotten million times faster. People's patient are wearing out. What do you expect them to do. Read this pieces which descirbe the problem, and why some in Silicon Valley dont get it. https://steveblank.com/2017/08/12/working-outside-the-tech-bubble/ https://steveblank.com/2017/08/12/working-outside-the-tech-b... At the end of the post. I don’t know how the people I listened to and talked to voted, but it’s easy to see why they might feel as if no one in Washington is living their lives. And that the tech world is just as distant as Hollywood or Wall Street.
- Mikeb85 9y agoSo hundreds were beat up in Catalonia and many here said it was justified. Spain is sending their army to Catalonia to squash independance there. Yet everyone jumps on HK for arresting activists who knowingly and intentionally broke the law...