17 ms·

Spain Fines Facebook Over Tracking Users Without Consent

645 points by thg 9y ago

Mahn 9y ago
I don't have anything against regulations and fines to keep monopolistic companies in check, but that being said, as an European, I can't help but feel a little appalled that there's so much focus on this and so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks.
- marian0_ 9y ago
  I on the other hand enjoy having high taxes (i.e. good services) and lower wages while the US creates all the products I need and it is them who are on the brink of a civil war over inequality.
  - vdnkh 9y ago
    If you think the US is on the brink of civil war you've been spending too much time reading fnords on the internet.
    - RivieraKid 9y ago
      It was a metaphor.
    - snovv_crash 9y ago
      Dunno... I had childhood friends calling for the white supremacists to please come march in Oakland. Imagine the carnage, repercussions and tensions that would come from that. I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but between ignored Occupy protesters' issues, the Tea Party being co-opted into an anti-abortion group with their original complaints being ignored, and the BLM movement that grew out of Ferguson feeling ignored by those in power, the U.S.A. isn't exactly super stable at the moment. There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it. What spark would be required to light this flame?
      - losteric 9y ago
        This image is really the best metaphor for our current political climate: https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi Mass media just magnifies the angry 1%, creating mountains out of molehills. eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Every police incident involves that same small group of people, but the media hypes up the number of incidents. Some group postures to look significant, the media obliges to get ad revenue, a handful of people get caught up in the hysteria, and everyone else... yawns. A homeless man delaying BART by 20 minutes causes more wide-spread civil unrest. People are upset, yes, and America desperately needs a functional Congress... but we're not even close to > There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it
        snovv_crash 9y ago
        > eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Yes, but how many who agree with them, but have day jobs they need to go to? I can assure you that my childhood friend was not joining the BLM protests, but he was still calling for Nazis to try to march in Oakland.
        losteric 9y ago
        I know. My point is that is largely meaningless * "Racists march in racist territory to intimidate people elsewhere" * "People elsewhere goad the weak cowardly racists" Uh, obviously? I'd be surprised if that didn't happen. Racism is not popular. Oakland isn't alone, I have heard the same sentiment from New Yorkers, Seattleites, Houston; urban areas do not tolerate that kind of anti-American discrimination.
      - dqpb 9y ago
        I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but... Relevant blog: https://predictiveheuristics.com/ https://predictiveheuristics.com/
  - watwut 9y ago
    Civil war in US would be catastrophic for pretty much everyone in EU. Just saying. Our economies are very dependent. That alone would be catastrophic. It would make Russia, China etc more confident in taking more territories and putting more demands on EU. Handle refugees from there would put a lot of strain on us too. If not-nice-people would won, and civil wars tend to be won by wannabe dictators, we would be even in bigger trouble.
- beevai142 9y ago
  Perhaps it is an action boosting EU-based companies? Otherwise they are at a disadvantage in competition, because US-based Googles and Facebooks game the e.g. the tax system in a way that EU-based companies cannot.
  - nradov 9y ago
    Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet. It only impacts investors and executives. So that's not the reason why EU based competitors have mostly failed to reach dominant positions.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      "Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet" No, it really does help large entities wield their power even more. The billions of dollars that the big cos have stockpiled ensures they can suck up the talent, attack new markets and keep competitors at bay. It's not the biggest thing, but it's a thing.
      - nradov 9y ago
        No it doesn't really help. The money is mostly stockpiled offshore specifically to avoid taxation. They aren't using it to hire more employees or launch new products. The only thing it might help with is to prevent hostile acquisitions.
      - alexasmyths 9y ago
        Yes, it does help. A) They have massive operations internationally and hire a lot. B) Did you witness Microsofts dismantling of Nokia? That was a takedown of an entire ecosystem and huge gift to Apple and Google/Android as well. Paid for by cheap taxes overseas.
        nradov 9y ago
        Nokia never had a real ecosystem. That's exactly why they failed.
- Swizec 9y ago
  As an investor in my first startup once put it: You want to build a company in the US because you have access to a market of 300,000,000 people right from the beginning. In Europe markets are much smaller. Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets. Germany and Spain? Fuggetaboutit. Yes you can't address that big of a market immediately, but if you're into the whole rapid expansion VC thing, having a big market helps a lot more than having a thousand tiny markets does. Where I'm from, Slovenia, basically nobody builds startups for the local market anymore. You go straight for global and that shit's hard. Would be nice to have a bigger local market that you can experiment with.
  - switch007 9y ago
    > Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets In what respect? Berlin and Munich are 363 miles apart, share standard German, a currency, a time zone, a prime minister, some culture, legal system... Are you referring to class/wealth?
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      They are different cultures. Munich/Bayern - old school, conservative, traditional. Berlin - multicultural, hipster. Kind of like SF vs. Dallas. That said, they are both very German and it's a little bit of a stretch to say they are different markets. But Germany and Spain are night and day different and building for EU-wide is very hard. Not only are there different markets, but Europeans have strong cultures, which include behaviours - they don't jump a 'the new thing' because it's cool. America is a land of fads and trends, people like new activities, new dynamics - also, people are always in search of identity, and 'brand power' is powerful in the US across the board, just as some American brands have considerable cultural power in China. There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech, so it's tough. Some spots, yes, and numbers overall, yes. But no hot-zones.
      - JetSpiegel 9y ago
        > There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech What the? People get in line to buy iPhones here too, Europeans are not all smart. Europe is not just the CCC and The Fabulous Destiny of Amèlie, people are addicted to Facebook about the same as Americans.
- icebraining 9y ago
  The EU and many of its members have plenty of programs encouraging entrepreneurship. Stuff like http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ Whether they're actually able to lead to the creation of European Googles and Facebooks is a different question.
  - nradov 9y ago
    Those programs are mostly cargo culting and fail to address the essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment. It's a way to seem like they're doing something rather than making the hard changes that would piss off some powerful special interests and rentiers.
    - lioeters 9y ago
      One thing I hear about the startup environment in Europe is that investors are more conservative and risk-averse compared to those in the US. Would you elaborate on the "essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment", and the hard changes that would need to be made to improve the situation? Also curious to hear more about these powerful special interests and "rentiers" - any specific examples in mind?
      - franciscop 9y ago
        Try becoming a freelancer opening a company in Spain. Orders of magnitude harder than in the US, so for many recent grads is not a viable option at all.
        bjelkeman-again 9y ago
        Different EU countries have different contexts. In Sweden it is very easy.
        likelynew 9y ago
        I think the point is not how easy is to start a company, but how easy is to get funds that you can spend without fear of failing.
- RivieraKid 9y ago
  > so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks How though?
  - thecrazyone 9y ago
    Also "why though?"
- RivieraKid 9y ago
  The US (and China) have the advantage of a large homogenous market. That's probably one of the main reason why Google, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit and others originated in the US.
- grp 9y ago
  If Google and Facebook aren't good, I'm not sure that the European version would be good..
  - thecrazyone 9y ago
    good point, something which is not noted when people talk about such things :)
- jlarocco 9y ago
  Those are two separate issues. The rules apply to everybody equally, and enforcing them is independent of promoting innovation and economic growth.
- daveid 9y ago
  Mastodon[1] is European :) [1]: https://joinmastodon.org https://joinmastodon.org
- kbart 9y ago
  I don't think it's a technological problem. There are surely talents in Europe that are capable of creating wondrous things (let alone social networks), see Skype for example (before Microsoft has ruined it). I think it's cultural -- USA is the center of western culture (like it or not) and many fashions/trends are born there that are later followed in other countries -- Hollywood, music (MTV in 80-90s), TV series, Facebook, Apple etc.
- ionised 9y ago
  I'm not really interested in a European version of those companies. How would that be any better?
  - cabalamat 9y ago
    It would -- at least in theory -- be easier for the European peoples to regulate them so they act in their interests.
    - thecrazyone 9y ago
      Well, I'm sure you've heard of company restructuring. A company HQ can be moved anywhere, and a company restructured for legal freedom and tax efficiency. So, in all likelihood the EU Googles and FB will be structured similarly (maybe to evade EU laws if it were to become restrictive). And you're back on square one. Instead I suggest vote with your dollar, choose a different service that better suits your needs than making more govt regulations (and infringing on everyone's rights)
      - cabalamat 9y ago
        What I had in mind was a totally separate company, based in Europe, not a European branch of Facebook/Google etc. Kinda like the Chinese are doing by having Chinese clones of all the big UIS technology companies.
- jokoon 9y ago
  You can't really snap fingers and make those kind of company appear out of nowhere. Those companies exist because of american entrepreneurship culture, and how corporate laws work in the US. US companies have a lot of freedom to throw money right and left to do things because IT moves fast, and that is just not possible in europe at all. Also those companies are flagships, but they also are criticized because they are big brother type agents. They centralize data from users of the entire world, and let's be honest, it gives an information advantage for american interests (meaning geopolitics, economics, business). Those companies are not just products, they also are a big advantage for three letters agencies and business intelligence as well. I'm sure a similar european google or facebook would either be bought by US company or see its employees offered jobs at facebook/google. Europe is not interested in having such companies, because europe doesn't have investors to throw money like megalomaniacs at anything that pops up. Europe is more traditional. So yeah, the US is the center of the world, there are geopolitical reasons for it, and they are logical reasons why it is also the case for flagship IT companies.
- matt4077 9y ago
  Don't fall into trap of seeing this as being motivated by economic nationalism. That's a claim frequently made in regards to EU antitrust actions, and it is easily disproven by the data that shows US companies being underrepresented in terms of levied fines compared to their revenues in the EU. Any European competitor would be subject to the same sort of fine if they behaved similarly.
bsaul 9y ago
Those are the kind of regulations that should help create a consensus around the utility of the european union. Giant corporation, spending tons of marketing money to make everyone think they're trying to help the world, while behaving like scammers with regards to personal data, and like white collar criminals with regard to tax should be prosecuted to death.
- fwn 9y ago
  > The EU considers the death penalty as a cruel, inhuman and irreversible punishment which fails to act as a deterrent to criminal behaviour. http://www.eidhr.eu/highlights/death-penalty http://www.eidhr.eu/highlights/death-penalty edit: Hmm, now I'm not sure whether you meant a companies metaphorical death? ..I'll leave it here anyhow. :)
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Revocation of corporate charter is the equivalent of the death penalty for a corporation.
    - ryandrake 9y ago
      Doesn't happen often (at all?) and even if it did, what stops the company's leadership from starting a new, identical company with a identical board, employee list, etc. the next second?
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        Jail?
        ryandrake 9y ago
        Sorry, I don't know how "losing your corporate charter" works. Who goes to jail?
      - anigbrowl 9y ago
Prizewinner 9y ago
I remember them getting in trouble a couple years ago in the EU, I wonder if this the result of it. Back then, every website that had a Facebook button, would put a Facebook cookie on your machine. So it was basically cancer, and everyone had it. I think Twitter and G+ did/do the same thing too.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
r3bl 9y ago
One valid point I've seen someone say about this in a tweet (I'm paraphrasing it): By the time you read this comment, Facebook (presumably) already made enough profit to pay this fine.
t1o5 9y ago
Facebook tried to pull a similar gimmick in India called "Free Basics". It was dealt with criticism and the regulatory authority in India was smart enough to reject the proposal. Reliance, one of the sheepskin corporation in India wanted to embrace Free Basics with Facebook but could not. Now Reliance is trying a similar act with "Jio" cellphones. Its a good thing that many countries are realizing that US based monopolies are not good for their economy. Take China for example, their companies are well off like AliPay, WeChat, Tencent. Its because they are protected from monopolies who have the firepower to kill them. Keeping the monopolies in check will spur the growth & innovation in developing countries.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  It makes me weirdly happy as an American to see it happen. What happens when instead of massive, boring, soulless, mediocre corporations like Facebook serving 2 billion sharecroppers, we've got multiple or even dozens of smaller networks serving regions and niches? That has the potential for innovation we can't begin to understand. Facebook is akin to McDonald's not only spreading internationally but also replacing all other restaurants once it gets in a country. Who likes Big Macs that much? It's why we should criticize the actions of any power (whether the Us, China, the EU, Russia) to control citizens and eliminate smaller cultures. Maybe melodramatic but it's exciting. The growth of Chinese networks is interesting, wonder how they would develop under a democratic government? Further innovation or do they only exist because of that environment as you suggest?
  - dqpb 9y ago
    What happens when ... we've got multiple or even dozens of smaller networks serving regions and niches? I think there are already more than two dozen smaller niche social networks.
    - dreamfactored 9y ago
      What we need is p2p social networks. Huge potential in the tech and it 'just' needs polishing. Salmon protocol for comment threads for example is way more powerful than what we use today (it publishes comments across subscriber networks so you could have a conversation being pieced together across separate social networks). Maybe if some big users with a lot of early adopters like reddit and HN got behind that as a movement and started adopting the tech we would see some traction.
mankash666 9y ago
A 1.2M euro (non) fine? I hope it's a "first offense" discount.
- tryingagainbro 9y ago
  Actually it's a steep fine, it's just for 3 users /instances. Now I have to wonder why didn't they uncover more?
adrianlmm 9y ago
Is Google Next?
hbosch 9y ago
I can't help but read this headline in light of the Equifax ("Equihax") story also on the front page today. "Tracking without consent" seems an odd reason for a government to crack down on a business. Perhaps Google and Facebook, in Europe, aren't allowed to "track without consent" – but other companies can and do. Not just Amazon, as a direct comparison, but apparently credit bureaus and the government themselves are allowed to track me without my consent. I generally agree that "tracking without consent" is invasive, but if a government is going to use it as a way to extort tech companies for fines I would appreciate a little more consistency in who is being called out.
- germanier 9y ago
  Details are obviously different in each country but around here in Germany credit bureaus can't track you without consent. It's pretty hard to avoid giving that if you want to interact with banks and other companies but it definitely is possible if you are careful about what you do. Of course if you decide not to grant that consent many companies will not do business with you. Not sure what your point about Amazon is, of course the same rule applies to them as to anyone else. The government itself has very strict rules about what data can be collected and accessed. Unfortunately those rules are sometimes violated (especially in the intelligence space). At work we have some private data we need to perform our tasks of tens of millions of people. However, that data is regularly pruned and purged on a defined schedule so that we never have more than we strictly need. That's in stark contrast to what e.g. Facebook does which apparently holds onto every bit of data they have ever collected about anyone in case it might be profitable to use at some point.
- la_oveja 9y ago
  In Spain "credit bureaus" can't track you if you don't sign up for it. But on the other side, banks and other establishments can share a list of "unpaid debtors", which disappearing from is kinda difficult.
otherme1 9y ago
Make no mistake: this is a form of taxation. Our (i'm spanish) minister of economy has been very imaginative in the last 4 years to find new sources of revenue.
- RivieraKid 9y ago
  Hardly. It is an insignificant amount in terms of Spain's tax revenue.
  - olla 9y ago
    Maybe they are probing the courts and setting up the price with 3 persons, with an intent to start pumping money if the case is successful. There are near 20 million Fb users in spain thus the math says there is 400k€ * 20M users = 8 000 000 000 000€ to be earned in their minds.
- matt4077 9y ago
  Please don't spread these conspiracy theories. As just one of many arguments against: Such decisions are subject to judicial reviews (i. e. Facebook can sue). Spanish judges are just as independent from the executive as they are in most countries, once they are appointed. What motivation would these judges have to undermine the rule of law (something they studied and have worked in their whole life), when they can't be pressured, nor are they recipients of any part of such fines? It gets even harder to think of a possible motivation when you realise that any court rulings could be appealed in European courts, completely out of the sphere of influence of the Spanish government.
  - otherme1 9y ago
    You probably know that Facebook is not going to the judges. They would pay the peanuts just to forget the issue. The EU countries are playing this game since the crisis started in 2008. Spanish politicians just want their share. All of the Ireland-Google issue was exactly the same but bigger: even if they abide the law, politicians tweak a new one just to milk big companies. They just take the money from where it is. I don't know about conspiracies you talk. This is all happening in day light and applauded by the people.
setgree 9y ago
Not the first time Spain has taken on a tech giant, but it didn't go so great with Google: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/new-study-shows-spains-google-tax-has-been-a-disaster-for-publishers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/new-study-shows-... "A study commissioned by Spanish publishers has found that a new intellectual property law passed in Spain last year, which charges news aggregators like Google for showing snippets and linking to news stories, has done substantial damage to the Spanish news industry."
- kevmo 9y ago
  The mere fact that <X> was damaged because <Y> happened doesn't necessarily mean Y was a bad thing. We live in a dynamic world, and society reshapes itself constantly.
  - SilasX 9y ago
    Right -- legitimate competition and recognized Fair Use [1] could do the same the the same thing, and (at least in the US) simply reading off newspaper headlines isn't considered a copyright violation. The question is whether they did something illegal that hurt their industry. [1] I know, different legal system but whatever their equivalent is
- kaoD 9y ago
  Spaniard here. Google tax was just a ploy from our crony capitalist government to divert money towards publishers aligned with them (i.e. most major news outlets). Actually, the publishers are the ones who promoted it (lobbying for it long before it was even a law proposal) and the government just followed its masters (the two large media groups who own mostly everything). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEDE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEDE > In response, Google announced that they would be shutting down the Spanish version of their Google News service. > > The AEDE reacted by lobbying the Spanish government to force Google to keep it running. It would be funny if it wasn't so worrying. __ Fortunately this just looks like public workers from AEPD (Agencia Española de Protección de Datos, Spanish Agency of Data Protection) doing their jobs. AEPD is one of the few public organizations I'm glad we have.
cityzen 9y ago
Multi-national advertising platform is tracking people without consent... shocking.
baxtr 9y ago
Well 1.2 million euros fine is nothing to Facebook. That won't stop them from anything
- FridgeSeal 9y ago
  Apparently that was for only 3 users. It does however set a precedent, and if someone could take further evidence of this to court, on a much larger scale, those fines would stack up very quickly (as they ought to).
  - BurningFrog 9y ago
    Do you really think FB owes each of its users 400k Euros for its crimes?
    - kbart 9y ago
      If fine <= of profit from illegal activities, it just encourages to act, because in the worst case scenario you still won't lose anything. I'd say 400k Eur is just about right in this case.
- kbart 9y ago
  That's just a warning shot. Next time they get caught for the same thing it won't end so well, so it's just like saying: "stop what you are doing or there will be consequences, here's some little fine so you take us seriously".
  - baxtr 9y ago
    ok, makes sense. I didn't realize it was for 3 users only. I still wonder how impressed they really are...
bg4 9y ago
Life is better without Facebook. I'm considering ordering a few hundred stickers with this phrase on them.
- beedogs 9y ago
  I've just shut mine down again and it's been off my phone for months. Things are much better without it.
return0 9y ago
Facebook could just ask its users "Do you agree to be tracked, even without your consent?" and they 'd still say yes. If it mattered, people would have switched to one of the open source alternatives. This fine serves more as governmental virtue signaling than anything else.
- chiefofgxbxl 9y ago
  Sort of... but I don't think most users (those who are not technically-savvy) know the extent to which they are being tracked. The web has existed in the mainstream for how long now, and some of the people I know are just catching on to the concept of IP logging... Most web users don't know how deep the rabbit-hole goes, so to speak. Heck, even the Battery API [0] could be used to track users. A better question for Facebook to ask would be, "Do you agree to be tracked, even without your consent; we track your phone's battery, we track every web-page you visit via the Like button, we track ...". [0] http://wccftech.com/firefox-cuts-battery-api-privacy-concerns/ http://wccftech.com/firefox-cuts-battery-api-privacy-concern...
- kbart 9y ago
  It's illegal in EU to get a broad consent (aka "we will track you anytime, collect any data we like and do with it as we please"). EULA must state exactly what data is collected and how it will be used, also it must be retractable. You can joke as much as you like about "cookie law", but other privacy laws in EU quite formidable (probably the best in current world anyway). And they will be even stricter soon, as GDPR hits in.
  - return0 9y ago
    and soon europeans will seek VPNs to access a banned facebook? I mean i fail to see how the cookie law has affected the broader internet in a positive way.
    - la_oveja 9y ago
      Cookie law is pretty much a joke, as the parent comment stated. But there are some serious and useful regulations in the EU that aren't a joke. And if FB is banned from Europe (which I highly doubt), the average user won't be able to put a VPN so they'll simply switch to a clone most probably. imho FB is only popular because of the vast userbase and content, not because it is a great platform. We've seen clones appear, get pretty popular and die because they can't sustain a large userbase.
jondubois 9y ago
I think this is a good step. EU countries should start fining and taxing these US tech companies heavily to force them out of business in the EU and leave room for local EU competitors. The EU should try to be more like China.
- matt4077 9y ago
  I'm sorry but that's bullshit. Almost by definition, whatever replacements would be created would be inferior to the banned originals. If you start using fines and taxes as instruments of protectionism, you've also become a country no longer ruled by laws, but by the arbitrary whims of whoever is in power. I already spend too much time online defending (for example) the EU's antitrust policy against accusations of nationalism. If that sort of thing really did happen, it would be the start of a trade war. And nobody is interested in a trade war, except those whose thinking is impaired by some rather anachronistic xenophobia. Specifically for Facebook: about 40% of my friends are outside the EU. I wouldn't create an account on any social network that they are not on.
  - jondubois 9y ago
    Inferior initially but they may become superior in the long run at least in some specific aspects.
cabalamat 9y ago
> 1.2 million euro fine This is merely a cost of doing business. If Spain was serious, a EUR 1.2 billion fine would have more effect.
topbanana 9y ago
Isn't it up to the EU to enforce its laws, rather than member countries?
- klez 9y ago
  No, the EU sets the laws, member countries implement and enforce them. If they don't, you can appeal further up the EU. See here https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/overview-law-making-process/applying-eu-law_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/overview-la...
vectorEQ 9y ago
good way for countries to make some extra cash sueing these giants... but what does the user actually get from it? Nothing ever changes...

645 points by thg 9y ago

Mahn 9y ago

I don't have anything against regulations and fines to keep monopolistic companies in check, but that being said, as an European, I can't help but feel a little appalled that there's so much focus on this and so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks.

marian0_ 9y ago
I on the other hand enjoy having high taxes (i.e. good services) and lower wages while the US creates all the products I need and it is them who are on the brink of a civil war over inequality.
- vdnkh 9y ago
  If you think the US is on the brink of civil war you've been spending too much time reading fnords on the internet.
  - RivieraKid 9y ago
    It was a metaphor.
  - snovv_crash 9y ago
    Dunno... I had childhood friends calling for the white supremacists to please come march in Oakland. Imagine the carnage, repercussions and tensions that would come from that. I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but between ignored Occupy protesters' issues, the Tea Party being co-opted into an anti-abortion group with their original complaints being ignored, and the BLM movement that grew out of Ferguson feeling ignored by those in power, the U.S.A. isn't exactly super stable at the moment. There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it. What spark would be required to light this flame?
    - losteric 9y ago
      This image is really the best metaphor for our current political climate: https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi https://imgur.com/TxJ7iEi Mass media just magnifies the angry 1%, creating mountains out of molehills. eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Every police incident involves that same small group of people, but the media hypes up the number of incidents. Some group postures to look significant, the media obliges to get ad revenue, a handful of people get caught up in the hysteria, and everyone else... yawns. A homeless man delaying BART by 20 minutes causes more wide-spread civil unrest. People are upset, yes, and America desperately needs a functional Congress... but we're not even close to > There is a huge group of people who feel (rightly or otherwise) that they have genuine grievances and are willing to get arrested for it
      - snovv_crash 9y ago
        > eg the Bay Area has maybe 100 BLM/Antifa instigators total. Yes, but how many who agree with them, but have day jobs they need to go to? I can assure you that my childhood friend was not joining the BLM protests, but he was still calling for Nazis to try to march in Oakland.
        losteric 9y ago
        I know. My point is that is largely meaningless * "Racists march in racist territory to intimidate people elsewhere" * "People elsewhere goad the weak cowardly racists" Uh, obviously? I'd be surprised if that didn't happen. Racism is not popular. Oakland isn't alone, I have heard the same sentiment from New Yorkers, Seattleites, Houston; urban areas do not tolerate that kind of anti-American discrimination.
    - dqpb 9y ago
      I don't know what you think the precursors to a civil war looks like, but... Relevant blog: https://predictiveheuristics.com/ https://predictiveheuristics.com/
- watwut 9y ago
  Civil war in US would be catastrophic for pretty much everyone in EU. Just saying. Our economies are very dependent. That alone would be catastrophic. It would make Russia, China etc more confident in taking more territories and putting more demands on EU. Handle refugees from there would put a lot of strain on us too. If not-nice-people would won, and civil wars tend to be won by wannabe dictators, we would be even in bigger trouble.
beevai142 9y ago
Perhaps it is an action boosting EU-based companies? Otherwise they are at a disadvantage in competition, because US-based Googles and Facebooks game the e.g. the tax system in a way that EU-based companies cannot.
- nradov 9y ago
  Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet. It only impacts investors and executives. So that's not the reason why EU based competitors have mostly failed to reach dominant positions.
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    "Tax avoidance isn't helping large US based tech companies aquire more users or gain more control of the Internet" No, it really does help large entities wield their power even more. The billions of dollars that the big cos have stockpiled ensures they can suck up the talent, attack new markets and keep competitors at bay. It's not the biggest thing, but it's a thing.
    - nradov 9y ago
      No it doesn't really help. The money is mostly stockpiled offshore specifically to avoid taxation. They aren't using it to hire more employees or launch new products. The only thing it might help with is to prevent hostile acquisitions.
    - alexasmyths 9y ago
      Yes, it does help. A) They have massive operations internationally and hire a lot. B) Did you witness Microsofts dismantling of Nokia? That was a takedown of an entire ecosystem and huge gift to Apple and Google/Android as well. Paid for by cheap taxes overseas.
      - nradov 9y ago
        Nokia never had a real ecosystem. That's exactly why they failed.
Swizec 9y ago
As an investor in my first startup once put it: You want to build a company in the US because you have access to a market of 300,000,000 people right from the beginning. In Europe markets are much smaller. Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets. Germany and Spain? Fuggetaboutit. Yes you can't address that big of a market immediately, but if you're into the whole rapid expansion VC thing, having a big market helps a lot more than having a thousand tiny markets does. Where I'm from, Slovenia, basically nobody builds startups for the local market anymore. You go straight for global and that shit's hard. Would be nice to have a bigger local market that you can experiment with.
- switch007 9y ago
  > Munchen and Berlin are completely different markets In what respect? Berlin and Munich are 363 miles apart, share standard German, a currency, a time zone, a prime minister, some culture, legal system... Are you referring to class/wealth?
  - alexasmyths 9y ago
    They are different cultures. Munich/Bayern - old school, conservative, traditional. Berlin - multicultural, hipster. Kind of like SF vs. Dallas. That said, they are both very German and it's a little bit of a stretch to say they are different markets. But Germany and Spain are night and day different and building for EU-wide is very hard. Not only are there different markets, but Europeans have strong cultures, which include behaviours - they don't jump a 'the new thing' because it's cool. America is a land of fads and trends, people like new activities, new dynamics - also, people are always in search of identity, and 'brand power' is powerful in the US across the board, just as some American brands have considerable cultural power in China. There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech, so it's tough. Some spots, yes, and numbers overall, yes. But no hot-zones.
    - JetSpiegel 9y ago
      > There are basically no places in Europe with a critical mass of early adopters for anything in tech What the? People get in line to buy iPhones here too, Europeans are not all smart. Europe is not just the CCC and The Fabulous Destiny of Amèlie, people are addicted to Facebook about the same as Americans.
icebraining 9y ago
The EU and many of its members have plenty of programs encouraging entrepreneurship. Stuff like http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ http://startupeuropeclub.eu/ Whether they're actually able to lead to the creation of European Googles and Facebooks is a different question.
- nradov 9y ago
  Those programs are mostly cargo culting and fail to address the essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment. It's a way to seem like they're doing something rather than making the hard changes that would piss off some powerful special interests and rentiers.
  - lioeters 9y ago
    One thing I hear about the startup environment in Europe is that investors are more conservative and risk-averse compared to those in the US. Would you elaborate on the "essential aspects of an entrepreneurial environment", and the hard changes that would need to be made to improve the situation? Also curious to hear more about these powerful special interests and "rentiers" - any specific examples in mind?
    - franciscop 9y ago
      Try becoming a freelancer opening a company in Spain. Orders of magnitude harder than in the US, so for many recent grads is not a viable option at all.
      - bjelkeman-again 9y ago
        Different EU countries have different contexts. In Sweden it is very easy.
        likelynew 9y ago
        I think the point is not how easy is to start a company, but how easy is to get funds that you can spend without fear of failing.
RivieraKid 9y ago
> so little on actually creating European Googles and Facebooks How though?
- thecrazyone 9y ago
  Also "why though?"
RivieraKid 9y ago
The US (and China) have the advantage of a large homogenous market. That's probably one of the main reason why Google, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit and others originated in the US.
grp 9y ago
If Google and Facebook aren't good, I'm not sure that the European version would be good..
- thecrazyone 9y ago
  good point, something which is not noted when people talk about such things :)
jlarocco 9y ago
Those are two separate issues. The rules apply to everybody equally, and enforcing them is independent of promoting innovation and economic growth.
daveid 9y ago
Mastodon[1] is European :) [1]: https://joinmastodon.org https://joinmastodon.org
kbart 9y ago
I don't think it's a technological problem. There are surely talents in Europe that are capable of creating wondrous things (let alone social networks), see Skype for example (before Microsoft has ruined it). I think it's cultural -- USA is the center of western culture (like it or not) and many fashions/trends are born there that are later followed in other countries -- Hollywood, music (MTV in 80-90s), TV series, Facebook, Apple etc.
ionised 9y ago
I'm not really interested in a European version of those companies. How would that be any better?
- cabalamat 9y ago
  It would -- at least in theory -- be easier for the European peoples to regulate them so they act in their interests.
  - thecrazyone 9y ago
    Well, I'm sure you've heard of company restructuring. A company HQ can be moved anywhere, and a company restructured for legal freedom and tax efficiency. So, in all likelihood the EU Googles and FB will be structured similarly (maybe to evade EU laws if it were to become restrictive). And you're back on square one. Instead I suggest vote with your dollar, choose a different service that better suits your needs than making more govt regulations (and infringing on everyone's rights)
    - cabalamat 9y ago
      What I had in mind was a totally separate company, based in Europe, not a European branch of Facebook/Google etc. Kinda like the Chinese are doing by having Chinese clones of all the big UIS technology companies.
jokoon 9y ago
You can't really snap fingers and make those kind of company appear out of nowhere. Those companies exist because of american entrepreneurship culture, and how corporate laws work in the US. US companies have a lot of freedom to throw money right and left to do things because IT moves fast, and that is just not possible in europe at all. Also those companies are flagships, but they also are criticized because they are big brother type agents. They centralize data from users of the entire world, and let's be honest, it gives an information advantage for american interests (meaning geopolitics, economics, business). Those companies are not just products, they also are a big advantage for three letters agencies and business intelligence as well. I'm sure a similar european google or facebook would either be bought by US company or see its employees offered jobs at facebook/google. Europe is not interested in having such companies, because europe doesn't have investors to throw money like megalomaniacs at anything that pops up. Europe is more traditional. So yeah, the US is the center of the world, there are geopolitical reasons for it, and they are logical reasons why it is also the case for flagship IT companies.
matt4077 9y ago
Don't fall into trap of seeing this as being motivated by economic nationalism. That's a claim frequently made in regards to EU antitrust actions, and it is easily disproven by the data that shows US companies being underrepresented in terms of levied fines compared to their revenues in the EU. Any European competitor would be subject to the same sort of fine if they behaved similarly.

bsaul 9y ago

Those are the kind of regulations that should help create a consensus around the utility of the european union. Giant corporation, spending tons of marketing money to make everyone think they're trying to help the world, while behaving like scammers with regards to personal data, and like white collar criminals with regard to tax should be prosecuted to death.

fwn 9y ago
> The EU considers the death penalty as a cruel, inhuman and irreversible punishment which fails to act as a deterrent to criminal behaviour. http://www.eidhr.eu/highlights/death-penalty http://www.eidhr.eu/highlights/death-penalty edit: Hmm, now I'm not sure whether you meant a companies metaphorical death? ..I'll leave it here anyhow. :)
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Revocation of corporate charter is the equivalent of the death penalty for a corporation.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    Doesn't happen often (at all?) and even if it did, what stops the company's leadership from starting a new, identical company with a identical board, employee list, etc. the next second?
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Jail?
      - ryandrake 9y ago
        Sorry, I don't know how "losing your corporate charter" works. Who goes to jail?
    - anigbrowl 9y ago

Prizewinner 9y ago

I remember them getting in trouble a couple years ago in the EU, I wonder if this the result of it. Back then, every website that had a Facebook button, would put a Facebook cookie on your machine. So it was basically cancer, and everyone had it. I think Twitter and G+ did/do the same thing too.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

r3bl 9y ago

One valid point I've seen someone say about this in a tweet (I'm paraphrasing it): By the time you read this comment, Facebook (presumably) already made enough profit to pay this fine.

t1o5 9y ago

Facebook tried to pull a similar gimmick in India called "Free Basics". It was dealt with criticism and the regulatory authority in India was smart enough to reject the proposal. Reliance, one of the sheepskin corporation in India wanted to embrace Free Basics with Facebook but could not. Now Reliance is trying a similar act with "Jio" cellphones. Its a good thing that many countries are realizing that US based monopolies are not good for their economy. Take China for example, their companies are well off like AliPay, WeChat, Tencent. Its because they are protected from monopolies who have the firepower to kill them. Keeping the monopolies in check will spur the growth & innovation in developing countries.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
It makes me weirdly happy as an American to see it happen. What happens when instead of massive, boring, soulless, mediocre corporations like Facebook serving 2 billion sharecroppers, we've got multiple or even dozens of smaller networks serving regions and niches? That has the potential for innovation we can't begin to understand. Facebook is akin to McDonald's not only spreading internationally but also replacing all other restaurants once it gets in a country. Who likes Big Macs that much? It's why we should criticize the actions of any power (whether the Us, China, the EU, Russia) to control citizens and eliminate smaller cultures. Maybe melodramatic but it's exciting. The growth of Chinese networks is interesting, wonder how they would develop under a democratic government? Further innovation or do they only exist because of that environment as you suggest?
- dqpb 9y ago
  What happens when ... we've got multiple or even dozens of smaller networks serving regions and niches? I think there are already more than two dozen smaller niche social networks.
  - dreamfactored 9y ago
    What we need is p2p social networks. Huge potential in the tech and it 'just' needs polishing. Salmon protocol for comment threads for example is way more powerful than what we use today (it publishes comments across subscriber networks so you could have a conversation being pieced together across separate social networks). Maybe if some big users with a lot of early adopters like reddit and HN got behind that as a movement and started adopting the tech we would see some traction.

mankash666 9y ago

A 1.2M euro (non) fine? I hope it's a "first offense" discount.

tryingagainbro 9y ago
Actually it's a steep fine, it's just for 3 users /instances. Now I have to wonder why didn't they uncover more?

adrianlmm 9y ago

Is Google Next?

hbosch 9y ago

I can't help but read this headline in light of the Equifax ("Equihax") story also on the front page today. "Tracking without consent" seems an odd reason for a government to crack down on a business. Perhaps Google and Facebook, in Europe, aren't allowed to "track without consent" – but other companies can and do. Not just Amazon, as a direct comparison, but apparently credit bureaus and the government themselves are allowed to track me without my consent. I generally agree that "tracking without consent" is invasive, but if a government is going to use it as a way to extort tech companies for fines I would appreciate a little more consistency in who is being called out.

germanier 9y ago
Details are obviously different in each country but around here in Germany credit bureaus can't track you without consent. It's pretty hard to avoid giving that if you want to interact with banks and other companies but it definitely is possible if you are careful about what you do. Of course if you decide not to grant that consent many companies will not do business with you. Not sure what your point about Amazon is, of course the same rule applies to them as to anyone else. The government itself has very strict rules about what data can be collected and accessed. Unfortunately those rules are sometimes violated (especially in the intelligence space). At work we have some private data we need to perform our tasks of tens of millions of people. However, that data is regularly pruned and purged on a defined schedule so that we never have more than we strictly need. That's in stark contrast to what e.g. Facebook does which apparently holds onto every bit of data they have ever collected about anyone in case it might be profitable to use at some point.
la_oveja 9y ago
In Spain "credit bureaus" can't track you if you don't sign up for it. But on the other side, banks and other establishments can share a list of "unpaid debtors", which disappearing from is kinda difficult.

otherme1 9y ago

Make no mistake: this is a form of taxation. Our (i'm spanish) minister of economy has been very imaginative in the last 4 years to find new sources of revenue.

RivieraKid 9y ago
Hardly. It is an insignificant amount in terms of Spain's tax revenue.
- olla 9y ago
  Maybe they are probing the courts and setting up the price with 3 persons, with an intent to start pumping money if the case is successful. There are near 20 million Fb users in spain thus the math says there is 400k€ * 20M users = 8 000 000 000 000€ to be earned in their minds.
matt4077 9y ago
Please don't spread these conspiracy theories. As just one of many arguments against: Such decisions are subject to judicial reviews (i. e. Facebook can sue). Spanish judges are just as independent from the executive as they are in most countries, once they are appointed. What motivation would these judges have to undermine the rule of law (something they studied and have worked in their whole life), when they can't be pressured, nor are they recipients of any part of such fines? It gets even harder to think of a possible motivation when you realise that any court rulings could be appealed in European courts, completely out of the sphere of influence of the Spanish government.
- otherme1 9y ago
  You probably know that Facebook is not going to the judges. They would pay the peanuts just to forget the issue. The EU countries are playing this game since the crisis started in 2008. Spanish politicians just want their share. All of the Ireland-Google issue was exactly the same but bigger: even if they abide the law, politicians tweak a new one just to milk big companies. They just take the money from where it is. I don't know about conspiracies you talk. This is all happening in day light and applauded by the people.

setgree 9y ago

Not the first time Spain has taken on a tech giant, but it didn't go so great with Google: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/new-study-shows-spains-google-tax-has-been-a-disaster-for-publishers/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/new-study-shows-... "A study commissioned by Spanish publishers has found that a new intellectual property law passed in Spain last year, which charges news aggregators like Google for showing snippets and linking to news stories, has done substantial damage to the Spanish news industry."

kevmo 9y ago
The mere fact that <X> was damaged because <Y> happened doesn't necessarily mean Y was a bad thing. We live in a dynamic world, and society reshapes itself constantly.
- SilasX 9y ago
  Right -- legitimate competition and recognized Fair Use [1] could do the same the the same thing, and (at least in the US) simply reading off newspaper headlines isn't considered a copyright violation. The question is whether they did something illegal that hurt their industry. [1] I know, different legal system but whatever their equivalent is
kaoD 9y ago
Spaniard here. Google tax was just a ploy from our crony capitalist government to divert money towards publishers aligned with them (i.e. most major news outlets). Actually, the publishers are the ones who promoted it (lobbying for it long before it was even a law proposal) and the government just followed its masters (the two large media groups who own mostly everything). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEDE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AEDE > In response, Google announced that they would be shutting down the Spanish version of their Google News service. > > The AEDE reacted by lobbying the Spanish government to force Google to keep it running. It would be funny if it wasn't so worrying. __ Fortunately this just looks like public workers from AEPD (Agencia Española de Protección de Datos, Spanish Agency of Data Protection) doing their jobs. AEPD is one of the few public organizations I'm glad we have.

cityzen 9y ago

Multi-national advertising platform is tracking people without consent... shocking.

baxtr 9y ago

Well 1.2 million euros fine is nothing to Facebook. That won't stop them from anything

FridgeSeal 9y ago
Apparently that was for only 3 users. It does however set a precedent, and if someone could take further evidence of this to court, on a much larger scale, those fines would stack up very quickly (as they ought to).
- BurningFrog 9y ago
  Do you really think FB owes each of its users 400k Euros for its crimes?
  - kbart 9y ago
    If fine <= of profit from illegal activities, it just encourages to act, because in the worst case scenario you still won't lose anything. I'd say 400k Eur is just about right in this case.
kbart 9y ago
That's just a warning shot. Next time they get caught for the same thing it won't end so well, so it's just like saying: "stop what you are doing or there will be consequences, here's some little fine so you take us seriously".
- baxtr 9y ago
  ok, makes sense. I didn't realize it was for 3 users only. I still wonder how impressed they really are...

bg4 9y ago

Life is better without Facebook. I'm considering ordering a few hundred stickers with this phrase on them.

beedogs 9y ago
I've just shut mine down again and it's been off my phone for months. Things are much better without it.

return0 9y ago

Facebook could just ask its users "Do you agree to be tracked, even without your consent?" and they 'd still say yes. If it mattered, people would have switched to one of the open source alternatives. This fine serves more as governmental virtue signaling than anything else.

chiefofgxbxl 9y ago
Sort of... but I don't think most users (those who are not technically-savvy) know the extent to which they are being tracked. The web has existed in the mainstream for how long now, and some of the people I know are just catching on to the concept of IP logging... Most web users don't know how deep the rabbit-hole goes, so to speak. Heck, even the Battery API [0] could be used to track users. A better question for Facebook to ask would be, "Do you agree to be tracked, even without your consent; we track your phone's battery, we track every web-page you visit via the Like button, we track ...". [0] http://wccftech.com/firefox-cuts-battery-api-privacy-concerns/ http://wccftech.com/firefox-cuts-battery-api-privacy-concern...
kbart 9y ago
It's illegal in EU to get a broad consent (aka "we will track you anytime, collect any data we like and do with it as we please"). EULA must state exactly what data is collected and how it will be used, also it must be retractable. You can joke as much as you like about "cookie law", but other privacy laws in EU quite formidable (probably the best in current world anyway). And they will be even stricter soon, as GDPR hits in.
- return0 9y ago
  and soon europeans will seek VPNs to access a banned facebook? I mean i fail to see how the cookie law has affected the broader internet in a positive way.
  - la_oveja 9y ago
    Cookie law is pretty much a joke, as the parent comment stated. But there are some serious and useful regulations in the EU that aren't a joke. And if FB is banned from Europe (which I highly doubt), the average user won't be able to put a VPN so they'll simply switch to a clone most probably. imho FB is only popular because of the vast userbase and content, not because it is a great platform. We've seen clones appear, get pretty popular and die because they can't sustain a large userbase.

jondubois 9y ago

I think this is a good step. EU countries should start fining and taxing these US tech companies heavily to force them out of business in the EU and leave room for local EU competitors. The EU should try to be more like China.

matt4077 9y ago
I'm sorry but that's bullshit. Almost by definition, whatever replacements would be created would be inferior to the banned originals. If you start using fines and taxes as instruments of protectionism, you've also become a country no longer ruled by laws, but by the arbitrary whims of whoever is in power. I already spend too much time online defending (for example) the EU's antitrust policy against accusations of nationalism. If that sort of thing really did happen, it would be the start of a trade war. And nobody is interested in a trade war, except those whose thinking is impaired by some rather anachronistic xenophobia. Specifically for Facebook: about 40% of my friends are outside the EU. I wouldn't create an account on any social network that they are not on.
- jondubois 9y ago
  Inferior initially but they may become superior in the long run at least in some specific aspects.

cabalamat 9y ago

> 1.2 million euro fine This is merely a cost of doing business. If Spain was serious, a EUR 1.2 billion fine would have more effect.

topbanana 9y ago

Isn't it up to the EU to enforce its laws, rather than member countries?

klez 9y ago
No, the EU sets the laws, member countries implement and enforce them. If they don't, you can appeal further up the EU. See here https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/overview-law-making-process/applying-eu-law_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/overview-la...

vectorEQ 9y ago

good way for countries to make some extra cash sueing these giants... but what does the user actually get from it? Nothing ever changes...