17 ms·

Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts

621 points by CariadKeigher 9y ago

matttproud 9y ago
McMansion Hell is exactly the shock therapy the United States needs. Someone lend this blogger a hand!
- atonse 9y ago
  Never heard of it before now. :( I bet it was enlightening.
  - eddyb 9y ago
    http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ is still up, for now, at least not all the posts are gone, so have a look.
    - artursapek 9y ago
      It looks like she just mocks gaudy Americana houses/feature creep mansions http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-mcmansion-hell-hennepin-county http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-... Edit: gender
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - tclancy 9y ago
        She's trying to do a bit more than that: http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-details/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-d...
      - hprotagonist 9y ago
        She. http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-details/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-d... is a pretty great interview with the creator.
    - sp332 9y ago
      "url is down temporarily do not be alarmed" https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844
  - JusticeJuice 9y ago
    It was absolutely hilarious, and informative. He would show photos from listings of excessively large, poorly made mansions (or 'McMansions'). He'd point out all the design flaws, and architectural mistakes, then laugh at the excessive price tag. Apart from the humour, it was super interesting. If I look at a picture of a house, there's no way I can notice water damage, mis-matched windows, or just shitty door placement. I guess Zwillo is salty as it could lead to lower valuations. [There's still a post up on 99% if you want to take a geez](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-details/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-d...)
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - atom_enger 9y ago
      Just wanted to point out that He is a She. https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell Keep up the good fight, Kate. You've taught me how to appreciate good (and bad! ) architecture. Also I question the construction of houses now which is something I've never done before, so thank you.
      - JusticeJuice 9y ago
        Ah crap. Sorry Kate, I shouldn't have presumed. Internalised sexism got me.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - c0nducktr 9y ago
    You can find some of the posts by searching http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ on archive.org.
  - Cerium 9y ago
    The blog was great. I learned a huge amount about architecture by reading it. I also laughed my ass off for hours. It was very funny, but had lots of explanation of architecture that provided the right words to google.
- chadgeidel 9y ago
  She does have a Patreon. As much as I hate the fact that we now need to crowsource these things, I think this is one avenue for us non-lawyer-adjacent folks.
  - wpietri 9y ago
    I've been a supporter for a while. I don't even have particular hate for McMansions, but I learned a lot about architecture from reading her.
  - harryh 9y ago
    link for the lazy: https://www.patreon.com/mcmansionhell https://www.patreon.com/mcmansionhell
imkevinxu 9y ago
On what grounds can they sue? Isn't this pure free speech? It looks like the only references to Zillow ever are citations that the photos come from their website http://www.mcmansionhell.com/search/zillow http://www.mcmansionhell.com/search/zillow
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > On what grounds can they sue? Isn't this pure free speech? Many of the house images are taken off Zillow's site. That said, it's a textbook case of fair use. McMansion Hell is pretty clearly educational / critical usage.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnTHaller 9y ago
  Likely copyright over the photographs. Realistically, it's fair use since it's transformative and used for critique. Unfortunately, fair use laws only apply in the US if you have lots of lawyer money, so they don't really matter for normal folks.
  - vortico 9y ago
    Correct, there are many tactics a well-paid lawyer can do to simply run anyone out of business based on a false or spurious copyright claim.
    - glup 9y ago
      Why wouldn't a judge throw this out as spurious if it clearly falls under fair use? (procedural question; not asserting that it does or does not meet fair use in this case).
      - hvs 9y ago
        Some states have attempted to alleviate this with anti-SLAPP laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publ...
Analemma_ 9y ago
I kinda figured this was coming sooner or later. McMansion Hell is using unquestionably copyrighted photos, but claims that they fall under Fair Use. I think that's true (but IANAL), but fair use is an affirmative defense that has to hold up in court.
- smhenderson 9y ago
  And just because he's right doesn't mean court cases aren't expensive. I hope he either gets the attention he needs to raise some funds or gets noticed by someone willing to help him pro bono. It's a good concept for a site. On it's surface it looks down right like community service. It's a bit snarky here and there but, man, some of those houses invite that kind of criticism. I don't see him selling anything, just a plug at the bottom about an article he wrote elsewhere. Maybe he should switch from using Zillow's copyrighted pictures and ask readers to send in pics from their neighborhoods. Perhaps ask people to please assign copyright to him if they do. If people know he's not making money off it and just sharing info/thoughts on ugly housing I bet people would contribute.
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    s/he/she/
  - rkho 9y ago
    She* :) https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell
    - smhenderson 9y ago
      oops, thanks. Thought I saw a picture of a "he" on the home page. Went to check again and it looks like the site is completely gone now, including this article. That didn't take long!
- r00fus 9y ago
  Can we effectively say fair use is dead? I wish mcmansionhell well, but how much is it going to cost them to fight Zillow? I wonder if EFF would be capable of helping out.
ben174 9y ago
For those who had never heard of it before, the Google cached copy is still up: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zFONMlsRjcgJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zFONMls...
- snug 9y ago
  Website is still up. http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ http://www.mcmansionhell.com/
  - ben174 9y ago
    Ah, I believe the content was removed when I first clicked. Looks like it's back now.
    - SomeCallMeTim 9y ago
      A few minutes ago it looked like the content had been deleted. Right now I tried twice; first time I got a Tumblr error page, the second time I got a redirect to an "Enter Password" field on a Tumblr blog page. I'm going to suggest that the owner is migrating the domain to point at a Tumblr page. Right Now. Maybe his servers were having trouble with the increased interest?
      - sp332 9y ago
        It was hosted on Tumblr all along. She says it's only down temporarily. https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844
    - ABCLAW 9y ago
      Entirely empty once again. :(
corpMaverick 9y ago
I really enjoy using Zillow. But this is wrong. Not happy.
- strictnein 9y ago
  Give Redfin a shot, if you're just into browsing homes for sale. Better search and UI, in my opinion.
  - tcfunk 9y ago
    Never heard of this before, thanks for sharing!
    - stickfigure 9y ago
      More importantly, Redfin's data is actually current. I'm trying to buy property. Back when I was using Zillow, I missed out on a couple because literally the day I found out about them was the closing day of offers. WTF? Redfin updates much faster. I still get emails from Zillow, often with listing changes that Redfin emailed me several weeks prior. Oh, and don't get me started on Zillow's incredibly shitty data. Their job is to clean the data. A trivial effort would fix the endless 6,000-acre properties for $350k...
      - strictnein 9y ago
        This will vary by state, but in MN a realtor can setup an email notification that will send you a message as soon as a property matching your criteria is listed. So I get the Redfin notifications, but I've typically already known about the property for 6-12 hours.
        SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
        I think this system is somewhat ubiquitous, using the database(s) colloquially known as MLS databases. The original idea was helpful in the pre-internet age because it encouraged fee sharing between realtors ("You help me sell my houses, and I will help you sell yours"). But in today's information age, it has unfortunately become a bit of a protectionist racket as the need for realtors to help you find houses diminishes, because to get access to the data and set it up for consumers you have to (in Texas at least) be a licensed real estate agent. You cannot simply pay a fee to access the listings. National Association of Realtors (NAR) who handles the MLS listings under a system known as Internet Data Exchange (IDX) was actually involved in a lawsuit from the DOJ several years ago about their protectionist policies. They were preventing online-only brokers such as Redfin from sharing MLS listings in favor of traditional brick and mortar brokerages. It will be quite interesting to see how the field of real estate evolves. I'd like to see it shift more toward the Redfin model, where the consumer has the power to look at whatever houses they want and the realtor is simply there to act as a fiduciary and facilitate the transaction between buyer and seller. It certainly seems to help avoid conflicts of interest in that case.
afinlayson 9y ago
Loser pays laws would help this kind of bullying.
- supergirl 9y ago
  wouldn't it make even more problematic? you risk not only lawyer fees but a fine too? maybe if the fine was % of assets, so the corporation risks 10% of assets if they lose, but that will never happen.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    I think it'd be problematic in the grey-area cases (of which there are many). IANAL but I wouldn't mind judges being able to inflict loser-pays in egregious cases like this, though - where a big corporation knows they'll get their way because it's too expensive to fight.
    - supergirl 9y ago
      the court is there to resolve disputes. why should it punish people for trying to settle things? the fundamental problem is the law is not mathematical (if it would be we wouldn't need lawyers) so the outcome also depends on how much resources you put in.
      - ceejayoz 9y ago
        There's a major difference between trying to settle things in good faith and things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publ... suits.
tareqak 9y ago
It would be nice to see what communication Zillow sent to McMansion Hell in order to both corroborate the claim and to see what law Zillow is invoking that Zillow would use in a potential lawsuit [0]. [0] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corroborate https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corroborate
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  She has posted the letter: https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537 Among other things, it claims the content is not fair use material, and threatens with the CFAA.
  - tareqak 9y ago
    Thank you ceejayoz! Edit: Putting arrows and text on an image is a modification. What if she used something to overlay the arrows and text? Would that still be considered modification?
  - wyldfire 9y ago
    The real teeth of the CFAA are from federal prosecutors, but it does allow for civil actions to get damages/injunctive relief.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
strictnein 9y ago
Funny. One of the homes they showed is in my area, and I had driven by it recently (since we're thinking about moving). And they're definitely right. It's a weird mix of horribleness. Especially the kitchen with its "update", aka let's throw in a couple of premium appliances and $2k worth of marble and call it a day. http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-mcmansion-hell-hennepin-county http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-... https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19735-Chartwell-Hl-Excelsior-MN-55331/2024299_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19735-Chartwell-Hl-Excels...
- cturner 9y ago
  Could this be an approach to defend the blog? Community project to take fresh images of the same houses, make the images available to the site under a liberal license.
  - strictnein 9y ago
    What I don't get is that the images themselves aren't even owned by Zillow. They get the pictures from the governing Multiple Listing Service (MLS). In this case, that's NorthstarMLS. These images are available absolutely everywhere, on every real estate site imaginable.
- buckbova 9y ago
  > Especially the kitchen with its "update" Wow. I really expected you were exaggerating but it really is terrible. There's not much square footage why the hell didn't they put in new cabinets at least?
  - Neeek 9y ago
    Didn't the writer say this was one of the only kitchens shown on the blog that she likes? That doesn't mean you have to agree of course, I Just don't really know what makes a good kitchen :)
- antisthenes 9y ago
  Is that...just a slab of marble hanging over the bar stools?
riffic 9y ago
https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance
supergirl 9y ago
land of the free. also, guy, why you don't just replace all photos with street view photos of the same houses?
- jokamoto 9y ago
  "guy" is a woman, and a substantial portion of each post critiques the interior architectural choices, which are obviously not visible in street view.
- rflrob 9y ago
  Most of the criticism of a house on MMH is of the interiors. While there often are bizarre nubs that are mocked, these are usually consequences of interior architecture choices that then spill out. Furthermore, Street View photos aren't necessarily any safer from a copyright claim. I think a creative lawyer might try to make the claim that you can't copyright data, and that Street View is so ubiquitous that it's data and thus not copyrightable, I'd be surprised if a court bought it (though IANAL).
cookiecaper 9y ago
IANAL. We give large companies far too much lenience to bully in this country. The legal system is fundamentally broken in this type of matchup, a small player pitted against a public company with billions of dollars floating around. Her only hope to win the fight is to be picked up by a nonprofit like the EFF, but my experience is that they're very restrained about where they'll lend assistance (that is, they're useless to most people). Her only hope to get through the next five years without having her life substantially wrecked by a totally unnecessary lawsuit (which she will likely lose if it goes to court) is to comply with the C&D and hope that Zillow calls off the dogs. Her brief plea for help at the end of this post could be construed as an attempt to conspire to continue to harm Zillow while avoiding legal accountability for doing so, and Zillow's attorneys will no doubt seize upon that construction to make things as bad for her as possible. The thing to understand is that once lawyers are contacted, the time for friendly discussion or rational pleading is over. The lawyer is paid to get the court to believe that their client is being seriously harmed so that they are granted maximal damages. Conciliatory tones and forgone possibilities to highlight damage would only hurt Zillow in an eventual court case, so the lawyers must seize upon such communications aggressively. Their sole job is to make the case that Zillow is being victimized as credible as possible, which means making the defendant look as bad as possible. We seriously need to get the legal system under control. An individual is lucky if they can afford 10 hours of time from a competent attorney. Large companies intentionally prolong their cases to try and starve less-wealthy opponents out by exhausting their legal funds. I am familiar with small companies who were forced to settle, even after spending $3M on legal services. It takes up to a decade and millions of dollars to even have such a case seen through in the US. IANAL. Source: I've had a giant law firm sicked on me by a Fortune 100. I complied with their C&D (by shutting down my business) and they went away.
- twblalock 9y ago
  > Her only hope to get through the next five years without having her life substantially wrecked by a totally unnecessary lawsuit (which she will likely lose if it goes to court) is to comply with the C&D and hope that Zillow calls off the dogs. If she would likely lose in court, then Zillow has a legitimate case against her and is doing her a favor by sending a cease and desist instead of going straight to court and taking her money. I don't see why you would feel sorry for someone in that situation. I feel sorry for her, but that's because I don't think she would lose in court.
the_cat_kittles 9y ago
is there a kickstarter type platform for legal fees? id be willing to donate some money... (im sure there is)...?
- chadgeidel 9y ago
  She has a Patreon.
  - the_cat_kittles 9y ago
    seems like it would work better to scare off intimidation type lawsuits if we could show a willingness to pay her legal fees. then if they fuck off, we dont have to. there must be some kind of legal crowdfunding service like this right?
    - chadgeidel 9y ago
      I'm not aware of something like that. :-(
    - SmellyGeekBoy 9y ago
      I love this concept and would definitely contribute if someone did build such a thing (not just this case but plenty of others, too).
dintech 9y ago
What a crime. This was an always educational, usually funny blog.
khazhou 9y ago
I also don't like some things online. I should probably sue.
glup 9y ago
Wow Zillow, way to protect that valuable IP! If I were an employee there I would wonder why legal wasn't working on something more useful. Is there any open repository of house images (OpenStreetMaps, etc.) that could be used as a substitute in the interim?
- nathancahill 9y ago
  Mapillary is where I'd look. They also have a really nice API, so some part could be automated.
- rmc 9y ago
  > Is there any open repository of house images (OpenStreetMaps, etc.) that could be used as a substitute in the interim? OpenStreetMap doesn't store images, just map data. Mapillary and OpenStreetCam are "crowd sourced Google Street View" alternatives, which could be used for that. At an extreme case, you can put a photo on flickr with the correct tags and geo tagging information?
xer0x 9y ago
Zillow may be being feeling pressure to enforce photograph copyright because of this lawsuit: http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-news/2017/02/13/zillow-ordered-pay-83m-in-copyright-case http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-news/2017/02/13/zillow-o...
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  That's hilarious. Zillow used someone else's images without consent to sell remodelling programs and thought that the subsequent lawsuit against them was "without merit" (quoting above link). Bonus points to McMansionHell if they use only quotes from Zillow in their defence! Some relevant info: * https://www.scribd.com/document/339052523/VHT-v-Zillow https://www.scribd.com/document/339052523/VHT-v-Zillow - jury verdict * https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1617640/000119312517038261/d315448d8k.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1617640/000119312517... - notice to SEC that Zillow intends to appeal * https://www.vedderprice.com/takeaways-from-vht-v-zillow-for-website-owners https://www.vedderprice.com/takeaways-from-vht-v-zillow-for-... - "Takeaways From VHT V. Zillow For Website Owners"
aezell 9y ago
Seems like a subscription to a national MLS service would allow her access to all the same images with none of the copyright claims Zillow wants to make.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  I doubt an MLS service would permit a user whose intent is to mock some of the listings. She'd have to become a real estate broker, too.
  - lightedman 9y ago
    Looking at MLS.com's ToS/ToU, nothing in there mentions photographic copyright at all.
  - imroot 9y ago
    I think Listhub (which covers 99% of the US) doesn't care as long as your payments clear.
noobilicious 9y ago
Welp, you guys know what to do. http://archive.is/ http://archive.is/ https://web.archive.org/ https://web.archive.org/ https://www.webcitation.org/archive https://www.webcitation.org/archive Edit: the blog just disappeared for me. I managed to archive the last 13 pages of it in archive.is.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  ipfs link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14640115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14640115
Amorymeltzer 9y ago
The Washington Post ran an article/video combo today[1] about Kate and McMansion Hell, and while Kate herself didn't mention Zillow the article itself did a few times. I imagine this is what prompted the legal threat. It's an entertaining video if you have five minutes. Also of note: Kate's twitter posts from this morning also indicate she has received threatening emails following the video[2], which is sadly not surprising. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/the-ultimate-symbol-of-the-pre-recession-boom-is-back https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/the-u... 2: https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879422526698532865 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879422526698532865
- ihuman 9y ago
  To add to your comment, she also posted the letter from Zillow to her twitter https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537
  - hluska 9y ago
    Zillow pulled out the fucking CFAA??? That's just plain dirty.
    - cookiecaper 9y ago
      It's pretty conventional in these types of cases. I've received a similar C&D and read several others and they all invoke the CFAA. It seems boilerplate for C&D related to online activities. The CFAA makes it unlawful to exceed authorized access to any protected computer system (essentially, any computer in the United States). If someone claims that you've violated their ToS, they almost always also claim that by so doing, you've also violated the CFAA, since your access "exceeded authorization" as granted within the ToS, which they'll claim you've agreed to. Now your breach of contract is upgraded to a federal crime. Better hope you don't make the wrong MegaCorp mad. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.
      - hluska 9y ago
tnt128 9y ago
To be fair, zillow itself was sued(and lost) recently for its user base uploading images they have no copyright to. I know the case is different here, but it's very likely Zillow is just being overly cautious here.
imroot 9y ago
I would expect nothing short of this from Zillow. I'm also not really certain that Zillow has the copyright: those are usually property of the RETS/MLS of that specific area, if not the agent taking the pictures.
- stickfigure 9y ago
  I came here to ask this question. I've never seen a Zillow ad that wasn't just a copy of the MLS listing (usually a month out-of-date, at that). The same pictures show up on realtor.com, redfin.com, and about 50 other sites. If you can get the byte-for-byte identical image from a different website, how does Zillow exercise any control here? If she just stops using Zillow, isn't she protected?
  - imroot 9y ago
    Zillow and other Real Estate sites have the same problem: Syncing Real Estate data is hard due to fragmentation (each area has its own MLS with its own rules), clashing data standards, and legal requirements (For example, I believe that Louisiana has a law that requires Realtors use the phrase, "A Licensed Louisiana Realtor" under their name in all marketing materials.) If you're displaying that data, the onus is on you to ensure that you are showing the correct data. You'd have some MLS'es that required their logo to be on the bottom right, some that required them to be on the bottom left, and 95% of the time, your data feed didn't even contain the logos: you'd have to double check and make sure that you were in compliance (and they did check and would cut you off if you were not in check). But, to answer your question: There's nothing that prevents her from going straight to the MLS or the listing agent's website to grab her source photos: zillow would have no claim at this point in time.
uses 9y ago
I totally understand the whole "McMansions are bad architecture" thing... However, something about it really bothers me. There was an episode of 99% Invisible where the guest was talking about their McMansions blog and how it makes fun of these Horrid dwellings. The whole thing stank of classist elitism. The Wrong Type of people were getting the chance to design and build large houses, and of course they're applying their Bad Taste that's neither Genuine nor Authentic. They don't know about the traditions of Fine Architecture so of course they were doing it all wrong...how embarrassing for them! Edit: It sounds like a lot of the way I interpreted this could come from my background as someone who's transitioned from lower working class to solidly middle class, and so I'm applying that defensively even though (thank God!) I don't live in an Embarassing McMansion. In fact I'm now considering the blog as more of an educational campaign where an expert in the field is railing against problematic and widespread trends in that field. It has less to do with transitions between class and more to do with the decline of an important field of engineering and design as something that people value. I think the word McMansions itself is a bit of a disservice to the purpose of the blog, with its "slobs vs snobs" / Beverly Hillbillies connotations.
- angersock 9y ago
  So, first, a lot of the architectural choices (especially if they were picked out by the homeowners and not by the architects) are done to ape (poorly) aristocratic and "Old Money" sorts of dwellings...so, making fun of them on a classist line is semi-acceptable. The real problem is that the architecture is just plain bad. Space is wasted, exterior are marred by design details meant only to suggest a style of building without any of the things that make them useful, interiors waste space and destroy any efficient attempts at heating and cooling--there is no defending that.
  - mschaef 9y ago
    > there is no defending that. There is a lot of space between defending bad ideas and putting up a website to mock them.
- chadgeidel 9y ago
  The guest on that article and the blog author are the same person. How can you "understand that mcmansions are bad architecture" and also say "the whole thing stank of classist elitism"? The blog points fun at clearly bad buildings. Fake columns, unnecessary rooms, poor placement of re-used furniture, etc. Sarcasm is funny. The blog is sarcastic in nature. What's wrong with that?
hesdeadjim 9y ago
I swear, if I were part of the three comma club I would have a very well-funded non-profit legal firm that would jump at the opportunity to take on cases like this.
nadim 9y ago
Switch all Zillow pics to Google Streetview. I doubt they will sue because Google doesn't care if you criticize random houses that they aren't selling. TOS: https://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines.html#streetview https://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines.html#street...
- cratermoon 9y ago
  Nah, her blog includes interior photos as well. Streetview won't help with that.
jasode 9y ago
IANAL but we can do some harmless armchair lawyering... The 4 Factors of "fair use"[1]: >1. the purpose and character of your use. Criticism, critique. >2. the nature of the copyrighted work. Published photos used in website blog without ads. Also, the photos were not put into a compilation book to be sold at Amazon. However, Kate Wagner does say in twitter that "this blog is my entire livelihood" so it seems that some commercial activity is happening. >3. the amount and substantiality of the portion taken Kate Wagner took a tiny percentage in proportion to Zillow's entire photo database. If the proportion measurement is a particular photographer's portfolio, she may have taken most or 100%. >4. the effect of the use upon the potential market. Does KW's usage of the photos cause economic harm to the photographers of real estate? Do the McHell photos reduce the value of photographers' other photos in their portfolio? Doesn't seem so but there may be some additional cause & effect that damages photographers' works. Seems like (3) and (4) would be Zillow's strongest arguments. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=4+factors+of+fair+use https://www.google.com/search?q=4+factors+of+fair+use
- DanBC 9y ago
  They're claiming ToS violation.
  - donatj 9y ago
    Which seems fishy to me… IANAL but without signing or hitting "I accept" to the terms, I haven't accepted the terms… I assume anyway. I could be wrong.
    - cookiecaper 9y ago
      IANAL either but I've researched this issue some. Still, nothing I say should be construed as reliable legal information. Automatic acceptance of ToS is described as "clickwrap" or "browsewrap", depending on whether the ToS is expected to be accepted by going to any page deeper than the home page (browsewrap) or whether it's accepted by, say, clicking a button. This is determined by the text on the site. For example, clickwrap would say "By clicking 'Search', you accept our terms of use." Browsewrap would be some text that reads "By using this site, you accept our terms of use." At present, it's mostly case-by-case, and it generally hinges on whether or not the consumer had sufficient notice that taking an action resulted in acceptance of the contract. If that claim were to go to court, the argument would be about the location of the notice and whether or not a reasonable person would've realized they were agreeing to the terms (assuming that the accused's knowledge of the terms cannot be directly established, e.g., the author states that she was not aware she was bound by the Terms of Use). People have a bad habit of assuming that technology law is somewhat reasonable. That's not the case. Because technology is foreign and magical to most people, and also because technology is very fast-paced and law is very slow-paced, and thirdly because most people don't have to be aware of these legal technicalities and can violate them without ever running into trouble or even realizing they've broken the law, ensuring that these things remain obscure political issues, tech law is in a pretty sorry state.
bobbybob232 9y ago
She might want to double check with Zillow. The Cease and Desist is signed 'Christopher Poole', which happens to be the real name of Moot of 4chan fame?
- ihuman 9y ago
  There is a Christopher Poole on Linkedin that is Corporate Counsel at Zillow Group. I'm not going to post a link here because it might be considered doxxing, but that person is real.
  - sergiotapia 9y ago
    That's quite the unfortunate name.
vermontdevil 9y ago
Someone should reach out to Popehat for a PSA to see if there are lawyers in Minnesota willing to consult.
covercash 9y ago
I wonder if she could use this momentum to crowdsource an initiative to send locals out to retake the photos for her...
maaarghk 9y ago
If you're looking to read the article you can go to http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/ http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/ - it has been unlinked from the domain name.
jasallen 9y ago
I like both mcmansionhell.com AND my mcMansion. Weirdly, she calls out fake shutters that won't actually close over the windows, but my 1954 built, 1300sq ft previous house had those as well!
- mi100hael 9y ago
  I think a large part of the problem with fake shutters is that they are often too small and wouldn't fully cover the window if they were functional, so they end up looking awkward and out-of-balance
droithomme 9y ago
mcmansionhell's use is clearly fair use as it falls under both the criticism and parody exceptions. This might be why the Zillow SLAPP letter mainly focuses on supposed TOS violations. Whether unsigned web site TOS off on a page most visitors never see are enforceable at all is highly questionable.
- amyjess 9y ago
  But you can also make the argument that it's only fair use if you're using the photos to criticize and parody Zillow or the services they provide. She's not criticizing Zillow or its services but rather the subjects of the photographs.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    That's an interesting construction of the Fair Use terms that to me, IANAL, seems entirely wrong; but interesting. Like you could stop someone using your image in a parody because you took the picture of your tie and they instead parodied your suit wearing. Doesn't work, the image stands by itself, the supposed purpose of the image is irrelevant to the copyright ... or am I wrong? If I take a picture from Zillow's site and use it to teach a class about poor framing (ie photography technique) then the exception for educational use still stands.
    - droithomme 9y ago
      Yeah I do agree. However amyjess reasonably brings up an important aspect of this case. SCOTUS has distinguished between satire and parody. If this goes to court it is likely Zillow will claim this is satire and not parody since parody claims of copyright exception have a long history of vigorous acceptance. However this all relies on an interpretation that only photographic composition and metaissues are acceptable criticism targets and the actual subject of the photo is somehow not related to the content. That is a novel argument and unlikely to prevail should this be adjudicated.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
notadoc 9y ago
The whole site appears to be missing. What happened?
pwthornton 9y ago
I may be mistaken, but doesn't Zillow itself scrape a lot of its info, including photos?
- softawre 9y ago
  They didn't do that, I just recently sold a home, and I had to dual-upload my pics to Zillow (where other sites like Redfin picked them up from Mibor)
peacetreefrog 9y ago
Never heard of McMansion Hell before, but went back and checked it out on Google Cache and it just seems mean spirited. Why should anyone care what sort of house people choose to build, buy or live in? Reminds me of the people that couldn't handle an old lady's earnest Olive Garden review a few years back. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/olive-garden-reviewer-is-media-star_b_1334736.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/olive-garden-revie...
- blakes 9y ago
  I think of architecture a little bit like art, and that some art is "bad" and some is "good". I feel like there are certain rules or techniques in say, painting, that if one follows, can contribute to the art being perceived as "good". When you combine rules or techniques and it is poorly executed, the art may be perceived as "bad". Seems to be the same with architecture. Seems to me that Kate is an art critic of sorts. A very specific one.
  - dagw 9y ago
    That is one dimension of architecture and architecture criticism. The other is if the building is actually fit for purpose. Personally I wish more architecture criticism would focus on the intended use of the building and how well it achieves that. At the end of the day buildings aren't land art.
    - cratermoon 9y ago
      Utilitarianism in architecture: Form ever follows function^1 1 https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/architecture/4-205-analysis-of-contemporary-architecture-fall-2009/readings/MIT4_205F09_Sullivan.pdf https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/architecture/4-205-analysis-of-c...
- jasondemeuse 9y ago
  >Why should anyone care what sort of house people choose to build, buy or live in? Maybe because that's what she is knowledgable in, and she wants to point out bad practices in the industry she's involved in, or because they make expensive houses with cheap products that are only built to resell as opposed to have someone actually live there for an extended period of time? Look, these things might not mean anything to you (or me for that matter), or ever have a real effect on you and that's fine, but you really can't imagine why such poor practices might annoy someone whose career is based around knowing not to do these things that are so prevalent? Do you think subreddits like /r/programminghorror are mean spirited? If someone posted a snippet with 1000 cases in a switch statement, would you say "Why should anyone care what sort of sort of code people choose to write or use in production?" I don't see how that is any different than this, or how calling out bad practices with broad strokes is a mean thing to do.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
So I don't get it. This girl sounds really, really petty, and the 99pi episode is probably their worst. So what if someone wants to build a huge house? How is that harming anyone else? If I were wealthy I would totally build a McMansion because I want it, I like it, and I would love to live in it. Who cares?
- wil421 9y ago
  But then what would we argue about? I know someone who sends letters repeatedly to GEICO because he hates their commercials. Why waste the effort?
- dagw 9y ago
  If I were wealthy I would totally build a McMansion If you were wealthy why not put in the tiny bit of extra effort build a well constructed, nice, huge house that will last for generations?
  - jasondemeuse 9y ago
    I don't think OP read enough of the article to know what "McMansion" actually implies...
- eropple 9y ago
  So you like houses that incorporate inefficient interior plans and incoherent external features that don't understand what they ape, don't ape it all that well, and don't create a cohesive whole with the house or environment around it--but do sport poor, cheap construction and expensive-means-good internal features designed around checking off boxes rather than achieving the goals those features are ordinarily designed for? Math checks out to me. (Oh, and she's not a "girl", she's in her twenties, unless we're going to play the "use the term 'girl' to minimize a woman" game and we're not, and that 99% Invisible episode strikes me as pretty good because it reveals what people don't think about, as is their stated goal.)
- cr0sh 9y ago
  I don't have any problem with someone building a huge, and subjectively "ugly" McMansion-style house if they want. What I have a problem with is where they usually locate these houses. In many (not all, not most) cases, the builders locate the house in an area completely unsuited for the property. They'll find some low-cost home in an established neighborhood of 30-40 year-old ranch homes (for instance), then tear that house down (or maybe they'll buy two lots next to each other!), then build the monstrosity that towers over everything else in the neighborhood. They'll get variances and whatnot to build nearly up to every property line within fire-codes. It becomes a nightmare for the rest of the property owners; usually their homes will decrease in value as a result, due to nobody wanting to purchase or live in their home with such a structure nearby. Of course, this may cause them to sell their property at a loss - perhaps to another developer who puts up another such McMansion... There's such a thing, when you are building in an established neighborhood, to be a good neighbor and build something that fits in (both style and size) with the rest of the homes. Same if you modify the existing home; you don't want to go too crazy with style or structure, because this can devalue properties around you. It all comes down to whether you have any empathy for other people; whether you can place yourself in their shoes and say to yourself "if someone were doing this to a house near me, would it be a problem?" Unfortunately, too many people that do this don't care, or can't empathise - or if they can, again - they don't care. They just want to build, and flip it for the cash. It's a grab, plain and simple. Rarely do the people who build these live in them, because that would put them at the ire of their (now ticked off) neighbors.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
woodruffw 9y ago
This is a real shame. McMansion Hell was one of my favorite sites, and one of the few that I would repeatedly check for updates. IANAL, but her case seems cut-and-dry by fair use standards. I hope that she fights it and seeks the help of her (very appreciative) readers in fighting it.
iosDrone 9y ago
I'm never in favor of any speech being censored (especially fair use speech), including in this case. But as someone who wants to one day buy a huge McMansion in Vegas just for personal gratification, fuck all of these self-righteous snobs.
- bleepity 9y ago
  Except that she points out McMansions are shoddily built and won't last-- one of her photos shows a McMansion with especially severe water damage, for instance. Re-roofing that wackadoodle roofline is so cost-prohibitive you might as well just burn the thing and start over. If you ever have the money for "personal gratification", why not buy an actual mansion built with actual quality?
  - iosDrone 9y ago
    This is kind of splitting hairs. Obviously it's not smart to build something with shit quality that won't last. To me, the biggest difference between a mansion and a McMansion isn't build quality, it's size. I probably won't have the money to build a place that's 10,000 sq. feet, nor would I want to. But 3500-5000 is feasible.
jdelsman 9y ago
Heh... https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmans...
slaymaker1907 9y ago
I really don't understand how this doesn't fall under fair use. The images are quite clearly being used for criticism and satire which is protected speech. Is this just a case of the power of the almighty $$$ or is there something I'm missing?
breatheoften 9y ago
How did zillow force the removal of the posts??
wmoser 9y ago
For those of you that enjoyed the site, you might enjoy this one as well. It was the first thing I thought of when reading the description of the McMansion Hell website: http://blog.buildllc.com/2010/04/couch-cushion-architecture-a-critical-analysis/ http://blog.buildllc.com/2010/04/couch-cushion-architecture-...
codingdave 9y ago
I don't know the full context of what is going on legally, but I do know that being threatened is not the same thing as getting sued. And getting sued is not the same thing as them having a case. And them having a case is not the same thing as you not having a defense. Lawyers exist for a reason. Don't let other lawyers bully you with threats. Get your own lawyer to look into things. Back down if it makes sense. Sometimes it does. But don't back down just because you get threatened.
- kadavero 9y ago
  Do you also know that even talking to a lawyer when threatened costs money? And that Zillow is likely to have way more money to spend on lawyers than a blog?
  - codingdave 9y ago
    Attitudes like that are exactly what attorneys count on to bully the little guys. Many attorneys will give free consultations. Also, keep in mind that I'm not specifically talking about Zillow right now... I'm saying that you shouldn't let yourself get bullied. Running scared from a letter is just a bad practice.
noonespecial 9y ago
1) Aren't the images used as part of a critique? Isn't that classic fair use? 2) I was under the impression nearly all of the photos on Zillow come from MLS anyway.
francisofascii 9y ago
Here is a podcast she did in 2016 with James Howard Kunstler. http://kunstler.com/podcast/chatting-kate-wagner-mcmansion-hell-dot-com/ http://kunstler.com/podcast/chatting-kate-wagner-mcmansion-h...
jszymborski 9y ago
Mirror of the site: https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmans...
- zifnab06 9y ago
  It's dead, they updated their robots.txt. I really wish archive.org wouldn't honor that.
  - jszymborski 9y ago
    especially not retroactively, didn't know they do that :( Regardless, there's always another mirror somewhere else; nothing on the internet dies. http://archive.is/GXxIc http://archive.is/GXxIc
slantedview 9y ago
A status update on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879483071988367360 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879483071988367360
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
SnowingXIV 9y ago
So this made things even more difficult for me. I'm looking to buy a new house for around 300-500K. And I'd hate for it to be one of these, I don't need it to be some unique hipster snowflake because I need it to be marketable and sell well in the Midwest so most families are buying pretty standard craftsman style houses. Not the Silicon Valley entire house is a massive window. Main concern is getting money back or more and not doing some massive risk which is what this blog might be advocating.
- triangleman 9y ago
  You'll be fine.
robbiemitchell 9y ago
Cargo cult architecture?
Houshalter 9y ago
I really dislike this blog. Their rules are just subjective opinions and completely arbitrary. They don't give any arguments or reasoning to support them. When they do the side by side comparisons with traditional architecture, I usually prefer the McMansions. They just look cooler. I like that they aren't perfectly symmetrical and simple. Much of their advice could actually be harmful. E.g. reducing the number of windows to make it fit into their desired style. Windows have been shown to be very beneficial to mental health. E.g. hospital patients in a room with a window recover earlier, depressed people improve a bit when they can see trees, bright sunlight is hugely important in establishing the circadian rhythm, etc. Or the demands for the houses to be perfectly symmetrical and "balanced" is very constraining. It eliminates 99% of design space. There are otherwise more optimal designs that must be discarded because they don't meet that constraint. A room must arbitrarily become so much bigger or smaller, or eliminated entirely, to satisfy it. And the same is true for all of the rules. They are all purely aesthetic constraints.
- jameskegel 9y ago
  "What she said is invalid because I have personal preferences"
  - Houshalter 9y ago
    That's their argument not mine. They don't talk about personal preferences. They talk about their rules like they are objective facts, and are extremely condescending to anyone that thinks differently. If they would admit it was their personal aesthetic preferences, then that's fine.
archon810 9y ago
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170626/14563337675/zillow-sends-totally-bullshit-legal-threat-to-mcmansionhell.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170626/14563337675/zillo...
dredmorbius 9y ago
apt install dnsmasq echo "address=/zillow.com/0.0.0.0" >> /etc/dnsmasq.conf && /etc/init.d/dnsmasq restart
dredmorbius 9y ago
This brings to mind Nina Paley's "Copyright is Brain Damage": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9FKQAxWZc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9FKQAxWZc Paley is in the process of creating an epic animated story, using music appropriated with out rights, as a protest piece against copyright. She addresses the question somewhat at her blog: http://blog.ninapaley.com/?s=copyright+is+brain+damage&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Search http://blog.ninapaley.com/?s=copyright+is+brain+damage&submi... If you're looking for a transcript, I'm not aware of one, though Techdirt addresses some of the points raised: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151022/23582332603/nina-paley-argues-why-copyright-is-brain-damage.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151022/23582332603/nina-...
k5hp 9y ago
Mirror: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99gQJSsJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-offline-for-a-while+ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99g...
mavhc 9y ago
Large houses are terrible for humans, using more energy, taking up more space, therefore causing more travel, more car usage. I'm impressive by the millionaire whose house is small and efficient.
galfarragem 9y ago
This is what happens when you scratch big dogs. As an architect, I take my hat to whistleblowing construction businesses that profit mostly on layman's ignorance.
forgotpwtomain 9y ago
Website administrators: Please do not disable everything except google bot in your robots.txt [0][1] - this is a terrible practice making our internet worse. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-offline-for-a-while https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/p... [1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99gQJSsJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-offline-for-a-while+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99...
pascalxus 9y ago
This site seems like Class elitism and smells of Class warfare. It seems quite bitter too. A few of her architectural points are correct: a missing column here or there, perhaps some matching windows. But, most of her commentary is reaching and snarky. She might have fared much better if she put a positive spin on it and told people how to improve there architecture rather than picking apart every minor flaw, to which otherwise would be a great mcMansion. I found most of the houses and pictures shown on there quite good looking. I would be really lucky to live in anything posted on there. I don't think she's seen bad looking architecture yet. Obviously, she's never looked at housing in CA. And criticizing a house for having too small a lot - that's just really low. That's like criticizing a poor kid for not having any money. People don't get to chose the cost of land in their area. It's decided upon by voters and government. If she has a problem with lot sizes, she ought to blame voters not the house.
adultSwim 9y ago
Say it ain't so

621 points by CariadKeigher 9y ago

matttproud 9y ago

McMansion Hell is exactly the shock therapy the United States needs. Someone lend this blogger a hand!

atonse 9y ago
Never heard of it before now. :( I bet it was enlightening.
- eddyb 9y ago
  http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ is still up, for now, at least not all the posts are gone, so have a look.
  - artursapek 9y ago
    It looks like she just mocks gaudy Americana houses/feature creep mansions http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-mcmansion-hell-hennepin-county http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-... Edit: gender
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - tclancy 9y ago
      She's trying to do a bit more than that: http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-details/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-d...
    - hprotagonist 9y ago
      She. http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-details/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-d... is a pretty great interview with the creator.
  - sp332 9y ago
    "url is down temporarily do not be alarmed" https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844
- JusticeJuice 9y ago
  It was absolutely hilarious, and informative. He would show photos from listings of excessively large, poorly made mansions (or 'McMansions'). He'd point out all the design flaws, and architectural mistakes, then laugh at the excessive price tag. Apart from the humour, it was super interesting. If I look at a picture of a house, there's no way I can notice water damage, mis-matched windows, or just shitty door placement. I guess Zwillo is salty as it could lead to lower valuations. [There's still a post up on 99% if you want to take a geez](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-details/ http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-d...)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - atom_enger 9y ago
    Just wanted to point out that He is a She. https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell Keep up the good fight, Kate. You've taught me how to appreciate good (and bad! ) architecture. Also I question the construction of houses now which is something I've never done before, so thank you.
    - JusticeJuice 9y ago
      Ah crap. Sorry Kate, I shouldn't have presumed. Internalised sexism got me.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- c0nducktr 9y ago
  You can find some of the posts by searching http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ on archive.org.
- Cerium 9y ago
  The blog was great. I learned a huge amount about architecture by reading it. I also laughed my ass off for hours. It was very funny, but had lots of explanation of architecture that provided the right words to google.
chadgeidel 9y ago
She does have a Patreon. As much as I hate the fact that we now need to crowsource these things, I think this is one avenue for us non-lawyer-adjacent folks.
- wpietri 9y ago
  I've been a supporter for a while. I don't even have particular hate for McMansions, but I learned a lot about architecture from reading her.
- harryh 9y ago
  link for the lazy: https://www.patreon.com/mcmansionhell https://www.patreon.com/mcmansionhell

imkevinxu 9y ago

On what grounds can they sue? Isn't this pure free speech? It looks like the only references to Zillow ever are citations that the photos come from their website http://www.mcmansionhell.com/search/zillow http://www.mcmansionhell.com/search/zillow

ceejayoz 9y ago
> On what grounds can they sue? Isn't this pure free speech? Many of the house images are taken off Zillow's site. That said, it's a textbook case of fair use. McMansion Hell is pretty clearly educational / critical usage.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
JohnTHaller 9y ago
Likely copyright over the photographs. Realistically, it's fair use since it's transformative and used for critique. Unfortunately, fair use laws only apply in the US if you have lots of lawyer money, so they don't really matter for normal folks.
- vortico 9y ago
  Correct, there are many tactics a well-paid lawyer can do to simply run anyone out of business based on a false or spurious copyright claim.
  - glup 9y ago
    Why wouldn't a judge throw this out as spurious if it clearly falls under fair use? (procedural question; not asserting that it does or does not meet fair use in this case).
    - hvs 9y ago
      Some states have attempted to alleviate this with anti-SLAPP laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publ...

Analemma_ 9y ago

I kinda figured this was coming sooner or later. McMansion Hell is using unquestionably copyrighted photos, but claims that they fall under Fair Use. I think that's true (but IANAL), but fair use is an affirmative defense that has to hold up in court.

smhenderson 9y ago
And just because he's right doesn't mean court cases aren't expensive. I hope he either gets the attention he needs to raise some funds or gets noticed by someone willing to help him pro bono. It's a good concept for a site. On it's surface it looks down right like community service. It's a bit snarky here and there but, man, some of those houses invite that kind of criticism. I don't see him selling anything, just a plug at the bottom about an article he wrote elsewhere. Maybe he should switch from using Zillow's copyrighted pictures and ask readers to send in pics from their neighborhoods. Perhaps ask people to please assign copyright to him if they do. If people know he's not making money off it and just sharing info/thoughts on ugly housing I bet people would contribute.
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  s/he/she/
- rkho 9y ago
  She* :) https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell
  - smhenderson 9y ago
    oops, thanks. Thought I saw a picture of a "he" on the home page. Went to check again and it looks like the site is completely gone now, including this article. That didn't take long!
r00fus 9y ago
Can we effectively say fair use is dead? I wish mcmansionhell well, but how much is it going to cost them to fight Zillow? I wonder if EFF would be capable of helping out.

ben174 9y ago

For those who had never heard of it before, the Google cached copy is still up: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zFONMlsRjcgJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zFONMls...

snug 9y ago
Website is still up. http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ http://www.mcmansionhell.com/
- ben174 9y ago
  Ah, I believe the content was removed when I first clicked. Looks like it's back now.
  - SomeCallMeTim 9y ago
    A few minutes ago it looked like the content had been deleted. Right now I tried twice; first time I got a Tumblr error page, the second time I got a redirect to an "Enter Password" field on a Tumblr blog page. I'm going to suggest that the owner is migrating the domain to point at a Tumblr page. Right Now. Maybe his servers were having trouble with the increased interest?
    - sp332 9y ago
      It was hosted on Tumblr all along. She says it's only down temporarily. https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844
  - ABCLAW 9y ago
    Entirely empty once again. :(

corpMaverick 9y ago

I really enjoy using Zillow. But this is wrong. Not happy.

strictnein 9y ago
Give Redfin a shot, if you're just into browsing homes for sale. Better search and UI, in my opinion.
- tcfunk 9y ago
  Never heard of this before, thanks for sharing!
  - stickfigure 9y ago
    More importantly, Redfin's data is actually current. I'm trying to buy property. Back when I was using Zillow, I missed out on a couple because literally the day I found out about them was the closing day of offers. WTF? Redfin updates much faster. I still get emails from Zillow, often with listing changes that Redfin emailed me several weeks prior. Oh, and don't get me started on Zillow's incredibly shitty data. Their job is to clean the data. A trivial effort would fix the endless 6,000-acre properties for $350k...
    - strictnein 9y ago
      This will vary by state, but in MN a realtor can setup an email notification that will send you a message as soon as a property matching your criteria is listed. So I get the Redfin notifications, but I've typically already known about the property for 6-12 hours.
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
        I think this system is somewhat ubiquitous, using the database(s) colloquially known as MLS databases. The original idea was helpful in the pre-internet age because it encouraged fee sharing between realtors ("You help me sell my houses, and I will help you sell yours"). But in today's information age, it has unfortunately become a bit of a protectionist racket as the need for realtors to help you find houses diminishes, because to get access to the data and set it up for consumers you have to (in Texas at least) be a licensed real estate agent. You cannot simply pay a fee to access the listings. National Association of Realtors (NAR) who handles the MLS listings under a system known as Internet Data Exchange (IDX) was actually involved in a lawsuit from the DOJ several years ago about their protectionist policies. They were preventing online-only brokers such as Redfin from sharing MLS listings in favor of traditional brick and mortar brokerages. It will be quite interesting to see how the field of real estate evolves. I'd like to see it shift more toward the Redfin model, where the consumer has the power to look at whatever houses they want and the realtor is simply there to act as a fiduciary and facilitate the transaction between buyer and seller. It certainly seems to help avoid conflicts of interest in that case.

afinlayson 9y ago

Loser pays laws would help this kind of bullying.

supergirl 9y ago
wouldn't it make even more problematic? you risk not only lawyer fees but a fine too? maybe if the fine was % of assets, so the corporation risks 10% of assets if they lose, but that will never happen.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  I think it'd be problematic in the grey-area cases (of which there are many). IANAL but I wouldn't mind judges being able to inflict loser-pays in egregious cases like this, though - where a big corporation knows they'll get their way because it's too expensive to fight.
  - supergirl 9y ago
    the court is there to resolve disputes. why should it punish people for trying to settle things? the fundamental problem is the law is not mathematical (if it would be we wouldn't need lawyers) so the outcome also depends on how much resources you put in.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      There's a major difference between trying to settle things in good faith and things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publ... suits.

tareqak 9y ago

It would be nice to see what communication Zillow sent to McMansion Hell in order to both corroborate the claim and to see what law Zillow is invoking that Zillow would use in a potential lawsuit [0]. [0] https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corroborate https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corroborate

ceejayoz 9y ago
She has posted the letter: https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537 Among other things, it claims the content is not fair use material, and threatens with the CFAA.
- tareqak 9y ago
  Thank you ceejayoz! Edit: Putting arrows and text on an image is a modification. What if she used something to overlay the arrows and text? Would that still be considered modification?
- wyldfire 9y ago
  The real teeth of the CFAA are from federal prosecutors, but it does allow for civil actions to get damages/injunctive relief.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

strictnein 9y ago

Funny. One of the homes they showed is in my area, and I had driven by it recently (since we're thinking about moving). And they're definitely right. It's a weird mix of horribleness. Especially the kitchen with its "update", aka let's throw in a couple of premium appliances and $2k worth of marble and call it a day. http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-mcmansion-hell-hennepin-county http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-... https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19735-Chartwell-Hl-Excelsior-MN-55331/2024299_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19735-Chartwell-Hl-Excels...

cturner 9y ago
Could this be an approach to defend the blog? Community project to take fresh images of the same houses, make the images available to the site under a liberal license.
- strictnein 9y ago
  What I don't get is that the images themselves aren't even owned by Zillow. They get the pictures from the governing Multiple Listing Service (MLS). In this case, that's NorthstarMLS. These images are available absolutely everywhere, on every real estate site imaginable.
buckbova 9y ago
> Especially the kitchen with its "update" Wow. I really expected you were exaggerating but it really is terrible. There's not much square footage why the hell didn't they put in new cabinets at least?
- Neeek 9y ago
  Didn't the writer say this was one of the only kitchens shown on the blog that she likes? That doesn't mean you have to agree of course, I Just don't really know what makes a good kitchen :)
antisthenes 9y ago
Is that...just a slab of marble hanging over the bar stools?

riffic 9y ago

https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance

supergirl 9y ago

land of the free. also, guy, why you don't just replace all photos with street view photos of the same houses?

jokamoto 9y ago
"guy" is a woman, and a substantial portion of each post critiques the interior architectural choices, which are obviously not visible in street view.
rflrob 9y ago
Most of the criticism of a house on MMH is of the interiors. While there often are bizarre nubs that are mocked, these are usually consequences of interior architecture choices that then spill out. Furthermore, Street View photos aren't necessarily any safer from a copyright claim. I think a creative lawyer might try to make the claim that you can't copyright data, and that Street View is so ubiquitous that it's data and thus not copyrightable, I'd be surprised if a court bought it (though IANAL).

cookiecaper 9y ago

IANAL. We give large companies far too much lenience to bully in this country. The legal system is fundamentally broken in this type of matchup, a small player pitted against a public company with billions of dollars floating around. Her only hope to win the fight is to be picked up by a nonprofit like the EFF, but my experience is that they're very restrained about where they'll lend assistance (that is, they're useless to most people). Her only hope to get through the next five years without having her life substantially wrecked by a totally unnecessary lawsuit (which she will likely lose if it goes to court) is to comply with the C&D and hope that Zillow calls off the dogs. Her brief plea for help at the end of this post could be construed as an attempt to conspire to continue to harm Zillow while avoiding legal accountability for doing so, and Zillow's attorneys will no doubt seize upon that construction to make things as bad for her as possible. The thing to understand is that once lawyers are contacted, the time for friendly discussion or rational pleading is over. The lawyer is paid to get the court to believe that their client is being seriously harmed so that they are granted maximal damages. Conciliatory tones and forgone possibilities to highlight damage would only hurt Zillow in an eventual court case, so the lawyers must seize upon such communications aggressively. Their sole job is to make the case that Zillow is being victimized as credible as possible, which means making the defendant look as bad as possible. We seriously need to get the legal system under control. An individual is lucky if they can afford 10 hours of time from a competent attorney. Large companies intentionally prolong their cases to try and starve less-wealthy opponents out by exhausting their legal funds. I am familiar with small companies who were forced to settle, even after spending $3M on legal services. It takes up to a decade and millions of dollars to even have such a case seen through in the US. IANAL. Source: I've had a giant law firm sicked on me by a Fortune 100. I complied with their C&D (by shutting down my business) and they went away.

twblalock 9y ago
> Her only hope to get through the next five years without having her life substantially wrecked by a totally unnecessary lawsuit (which she will likely lose if it goes to court) is to comply with the C&D and hope that Zillow calls off the dogs. If she would likely lose in court, then Zillow has a legitimate case against her and is doing her a favor by sending a cease and desist instead of going straight to court and taking her money. I don't see why you would feel sorry for someone in that situation. I feel sorry for her, but that's because I don't think she would lose in court.

the_cat_kittles 9y ago

is there a kickstarter type platform for legal fees? id be willing to donate some money... (im sure there is)...?

chadgeidel 9y ago
She has a Patreon.
- the_cat_kittles 9y ago
  seems like it would work better to scare off intimidation type lawsuits if we could show a willingness to pay her legal fees. then if they fuck off, we dont have to. there must be some kind of legal crowdfunding service like this right?
  - chadgeidel 9y ago
    I'm not aware of something like that. :-(
  - SmellyGeekBoy 9y ago
    I love this concept and would definitely contribute if someone did build such a thing (not just this case but plenty of others, too).

dintech 9y ago

What a crime. This was an always educational, usually funny blog.

khazhou 9y ago

I also don't like some things online. I should probably sue.

glup 9y ago

Wow Zillow, way to protect that valuable IP! If I were an employee there I would wonder why legal wasn't working on something more useful. Is there any open repository of house images (OpenStreetMaps, etc.) that could be used as a substitute in the interim?

nathancahill 9y ago
Mapillary is where I'd look. They also have a really nice API, so some part could be automated.
rmc 9y ago
> Is there any open repository of house images (OpenStreetMaps, etc.) that could be used as a substitute in the interim? OpenStreetMap doesn't store images, just map data. Mapillary and OpenStreetCam are "crowd sourced Google Street View" alternatives, which could be used for that. At an extreme case, you can put a photo on flickr with the correct tags and geo tagging information?

xer0x 9y ago

Zillow may be being feeling pressure to enforce photograph copyright because of this lawsuit: http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-news/2017/02/13/zillow-ordered-pay-83m-in-copyright-case http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-news/2017/02/13/zillow-o...

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
That's hilarious. Zillow used someone else's images without consent to sell remodelling programs and thought that the subsequent lawsuit against them was "without merit" (quoting above link). Bonus points to McMansionHell if they use only quotes from Zillow in their defence! Some relevant info: * https://www.scribd.com/document/339052523/VHT-v-Zillow https://www.scribd.com/document/339052523/VHT-v-Zillow - jury verdict * https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1617640/000119312517038261/d315448d8k.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1617640/000119312517... - notice to SEC that Zillow intends to appeal * https://www.vedderprice.com/takeaways-from-vht-v-zillow-for-website-owners https://www.vedderprice.com/takeaways-from-vht-v-zillow-for-... - "Takeaways From VHT V. Zillow For Website Owners"

aezell 9y ago

Seems like a subscription to a national MLS service would allow her access to all the same images with none of the copyright claims Zillow wants to make.

ceejayoz 9y ago
I doubt an MLS service would permit a user whose intent is to mock some of the listings. She'd have to become a real estate broker, too.
- lightedman 9y ago
  Looking at MLS.com's ToS/ToU, nothing in there mentions photographic copyright at all.
- imroot 9y ago
  I think Listhub (which covers 99% of the US) doesn't care as long as your payments clear.

noobilicious 9y ago

Welp, you guys know what to do. http://archive.is/ http://archive.is/ https://web.archive.org/ https://web.archive.org/ https://www.webcitation.org/archive https://www.webcitation.org/archive Edit: the blog just disappeared for me. I managed to archive the last 13 pages of it in archive.is.

CaptSpify 9y ago
ipfs link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14640115 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14640115

Amorymeltzer 9y ago

The Washington Post ran an article/video combo today[1] about Kate and McMansion Hell, and while Kate herself didn't mention Zillow the article itself did a few times. I imagine this is what prompted the legal threat. It's an entertaining video if you have five minutes. Also of note: Kate's twitter posts from this morning also indicate she has received threatening emails following the video[2], which is sadly not surprising. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/the-ultimate-symbol-of-the-pre-recession-boom-is-back https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/the-u... 2: https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879422526698532865 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879422526698532865

ihuman 9y ago
To add to your comment, she also posted the letter from Zillow to her twitter https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537
- hluska 9y ago
  Zillow pulled out the fucking CFAA??? That's just plain dirty.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    It's pretty conventional in these types of cases. I've received a similar C&D and read several others and they all invoke the CFAA. It seems boilerplate for C&D related to online activities. The CFAA makes it unlawful to exceed authorized access to any protected computer system (essentially, any computer in the United States). If someone claims that you've violated their ToS, they almost always also claim that by so doing, you've also violated the CFAA, since your access "exceeded authorization" as granted within the ToS, which they'll claim you've agreed to. Now your breach of contract is upgraded to a federal crime. Better hope you don't make the wrong MegaCorp mad. Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.
    - hluska 9y ago

tnt128 9y ago

To be fair, zillow itself was sued(and lost) recently for its user base uploading images they have no copyright to. I know the case is different here, but it's very likely Zillow is just being overly cautious here.

imroot 9y ago

I would expect nothing short of this from Zillow. I'm also not really certain that Zillow has the copyright: those are usually property of the RETS/MLS of that specific area, if not the agent taking the pictures.

stickfigure 9y ago
I came here to ask this question. I've never seen a Zillow ad that wasn't just a copy of the MLS listing (usually a month out-of-date, at that). The same pictures show up on realtor.com, redfin.com, and about 50 other sites. If you can get the byte-for-byte identical image from a different website, how does Zillow exercise any control here? If she just stops using Zillow, isn't she protected?
- imroot 9y ago
  Zillow and other Real Estate sites have the same problem: Syncing Real Estate data is hard due to fragmentation (each area has its own MLS with its own rules), clashing data standards, and legal requirements (For example, I believe that Louisiana has a law that requires Realtors use the phrase, "A Licensed Louisiana Realtor" under their name in all marketing materials.) If you're displaying that data, the onus is on you to ensure that you are showing the correct data. You'd have some MLS'es that required their logo to be on the bottom right, some that required them to be on the bottom left, and 95% of the time, your data feed didn't even contain the logos: you'd have to double check and make sure that you were in compliance (and they did check and would cut you off if you were not in check). But, to answer your question: There's nothing that prevents her from going straight to the MLS or the listing agent's website to grab her source photos: zillow would have no claim at this point in time.

uses 9y ago

I totally understand the whole "McMansions are bad architecture" thing... However, something about it really bothers me. There was an episode of 99% Invisible where the guest was talking about their McMansions blog and how it makes fun of these Horrid dwellings. The whole thing stank of classist elitism. The Wrong Type of people were getting the chance to design and build large houses, and of course they're applying their Bad Taste that's neither Genuine nor Authentic. They don't know about the traditions of Fine Architecture so of course they were doing it all wrong...how embarrassing for them! Edit: It sounds like a lot of the way I interpreted this could come from my background as someone who's transitioned from lower working class to solidly middle class, and so I'm applying that defensively even though (thank God!) I don't live in an Embarassing McMansion. In fact I'm now considering the blog as more of an educational campaign where an expert in the field is railing against problematic and widespread trends in that field. It has less to do with transitions between class and more to do with the decline of an important field of engineering and design as something that people value. I think the word McMansions itself is a bit of a disservice to the purpose of the blog, with its "slobs vs snobs" / Beverly Hillbillies connotations.

angersock 9y ago
So, first, a lot of the architectural choices (especially if they were picked out by the homeowners and not by the architects) are done to ape (poorly) aristocratic and "Old Money" sorts of dwellings...so, making fun of them on a classist line is semi-acceptable. The real problem is that the architecture is just plain bad. Space is wasted, exterior are marred by design details meant only to suggest a style of building without any of the things that make them useful, interiors waste space and destroy any efficient attempts at heating and cooling--there is no defending that.
- mschaef 9y ago
  > there is no defending that. There is a lot of space between defending bad ideas and putting up a website to mock them.
chadgeidel 9y ago
The guest on that article and the blog author are the same person. How can you "understand that mcmansions are bad architecture" and also say "the whole thing stank of classist elitism"? The blog points fun at clearly bad buildings. Fake columns, unnecessary rooms, poor placement of re-used furniture, etc. Sarcasm is funny. The blog is sarcastic in nature. What's wrong with that?

hesdeadjim 9y ago

I swear, if I were part of the three comma club I would have a very well-funded non-profit legal firm that would jump at the opportunity to take on cases like this.

nadim 9y ago

Switch all Zillow pics to Google Streetview. I doubt they will sue because Google doesn't care if you criticize random houses that they aren't selling. TOS: https://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines.html#streetview https://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines.html#street...

cratermoon 9y ago
Nah, her blog includes interior photos as well. Streetview won't help with that.

jasode 9y ago

IANAL but we can do some harmless armchair lawyering... The 4 Factors of "fair use"[1]: >1. the purpose and character of your use. Criticism, critique. >2. the nature of the copyrighted work. Published photos used in website blog without ads. Also, the photos were not put into a compilation book to be sold at Amazon. However, Kate Wagner does say in twitter that "this blog is my entire livelihood" so it seems that some commercial activity is happening. >3. the amount and substantiality of the portion taken Kate Wagner took a tiny percentage in proportion to Zillow's entire photo database. If the proportion measurement is a particular photographer's portfolio, she may have taken most or 100%. >4. the effect of the use upon the potential market. Does KW's usage of the photos cause economic harm to the photographers of real estate? Do the McHell photos reduce the value of photographers' other photos in their portfolio? Doesn't seem so but there may be some additional cause & effect that damages photographers' works. Seems like (3) and (4) would be Zillow's strongest arguments. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=4+factors+of+fair+use https://www.google.com/search?q=4+factors+of+fair+use

DanBC 9y ago
They're claiming ToS violation.
- donatj 9y ago
  Which seems fishy to me… IANAL but without signing or hitting "I accept" to the terms, I haven't accepted the terms… I assume anyway. I could be wrong.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    IANAL either but I've researched this issue some. Still, nothing I say should be construed as reliable legal information. Automatic acceptance of ToS is described as "clickwrap" or "browsewrap", depending on whether the ToS is expected to be accepted by going to any page deeper than the home page (browsewrap) or whether it's accepted by, say, clicking a button. This is determined by the text on the site. For example, clickwrap would say "By clicking 'Search', you accept our terms of use." Browsewrap would be some text that reads "By using this site, you accept our terms of use." At present, it's mostly case-by-case, and it generally hinges on whether or not the consumer had sufficient notice that taking an action resulted in acceptance of the contract. If that claim were to go to court, the argument would be about the location of the notice and whether or not a reasonable person would've realized they were agreeing to the terms (assuming that the accused's knowledge of the terms cannot be directly established, e.g., the author states that she was not aware she was bound by the Terms of Use). People have a bad habit of assuming that technology law is somewhat reasonable. That's not the case. Because technology is foreign and magical to most people, and also because technology is very fast-paced and law is very slow-paced, and thirdly because most people don't have to be aware of these legal technicalities and can violate them without ever running into trouble or even realizing they've broken the law, ensuring that these things remain obscure political issues, tech law is in a pretty sorry state.

bobbybob232 9y ago

She might want to double check with Zillow. The Cease and Desist is signed 'Christopher Poole', which happens to be the real name of Moot of 4chan fame?

ihuman 9y ago
There is a Christopher Poole on Linkedin that is Corporate Counsel at Zillow Group. I'm not going to post a link here because it might be considered doxxing, but that person is real.
- sergiotapia 9y ago
  That's quite the unfortunate name.

vermontdevil 9y ago

Someone should reach out to Popehat for a PSA to see if there are lawyers in Minnesota willing to consult.

covercash 9y ago

I wonder if she could use this momentum to crowdsource an initiative to send locals out to retake the photos for her...

maaarghk 9y ago

If you're looking to read the article you can go to http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/ http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/ - it has been unlinked from the domain name.

jasallen 9y ago

I like both mcmansionhell.com AND my mcMansion. Weirdly, she calls out fake shutters that won't actually close over the windows, but my 1954 built, 1300sq ft previous house had those as well!

mi100hael 9y ago
I think a large part of the problem with fake shutters is that they are often too small and wouldn't fully cover the window if they were functional, so they end up looking awkward and out-of-balance

droithomme 9y ago

mcmansionhell's use is clearly fair use as it falls under both the criticism and parody exceptions. This might be why the Zillow SLAPP letter mainly focuses on supposed TOS violations. Whether unsigned web site TOS off on a page most visitors never see are enforceable at all is highly questionable.

amyjess 9y ago
But you can also make the argument that it's only fair use if you're using the photos to criticize and parody Zillow or the services they provide. She's not criticizing Zillow or its services but rather the subjects of the photographs.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  That's an interesting construction of the Fair Use terms that to me, IANAL, seems entirely wrong; but interesting. Like you could stop someone using your image in a parody because you took the picture of your tie and they instead parodied your suit wearing. Doesn't work, the image stands by itself, the supposed purpose of the image is irrelevant to the copyright ... or am I wrong? If I take a picture from Zillow's site and use it to teach a class about poor framing (ie photography technique) then the exception for educational use still stands.
  - droithomme 9y ago
    Yeah I do agree. However amyjess reasonably brings up an important aspect of this case. SCOTUS has distinguished between satire and parody. If this goes to court it is likely Zillow will claim this is satire and not parody since parody claims of copyright exception have a long history of vigorous acceptance. However this all relies on an interpretation that only photographic composition and metaissues are acceptable criticism targets and the actual subject of the photo is somehow not related to the content. That is a novel argument and unlikely to prevail should this be adjudicated.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

notadoc 9y ago

The whole site appears to be missing. What happened?

pwthornton 9y ago

I may be mistaken, but doesn't Zillow itself scrape a lot of its info, including photos?

softawre 9y ago
They didn't do that, I just recently sold a home, and I had to dual-upload my pics to Zillow (where other sites like Redfin picked them up from Mibor)

peacetreefrog 9y ago

Never heard of McMansion Hell before, but went back and checked it out on Google Cache and it just seems mean spirited. Why should anyone care what sort of house people choose to build, buy or live in? Reminds me of the people that couldn't handle an old lady's earnest Olive Garden review a few years back. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/olive-garden-reviewer-is-media-star_b_1334736.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/olive-garden-revie...

blakes 9y ago
I think of architecture a little bit like art, and that some art is "bad" and some is "good". I feel like there are certain rules or techniques in say, painting, that if one follows, can contribute to the art being perceived as "good". When you combine rules or techniques and it is poorly executed, the art may be perceived as "bad". Seems to be the same with architecture. Seems to me that Kate is an art critic of sorts. A very specific one.
- dagw 9y ago
  That is one dimension of architecture and architecture criticism. The other is if the building is actually fit for purpose. Personally I wish more architecture criticism would focus on the intended use of the building and how well it achieves that. At the end of the day buildings aren't land art.
  - cratermoon 9y ago
    Utilitarianism in architecture: Form ever follows function^1 1 https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/architecture/4-205-analysis-of-contemporary-architecture-fall-2009/readings/MIT4_205F09_Sullivan.pdf https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/architecture/4-205-analysis-of-c...
jasondemeuse 9y ago
>Why should anyone care what sort of house people choose to build, buy or live in? Maybe because that's what she is knowledgable in, and she wants to point out bad practices in the industry she's involved in, or because they make expensive houses with cheap products that are only built to resell as opposed to have someone actually live there for an extended period of time? Look, these things might not mean anything to you (or me for that matter), or ever have a real effect on you and that's fine, but you really can't imagine why such poor practices might annoy someone whose career is based around knowing not to do these things that are so prevalent? Do you think subreddits like /r/programminghorror are mean spirited? If someone posted a snippet with 1000 cases in a switch statement, would you say "Why should anyone care what sort of sort of code people choose to write or use in production?" I don't see how that is any different than this, or how calling out bad practices with broad strokes is a mean thing to do.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

So I don't get it. This girl sounds really, really petty, and the 99pi episode is probably their worst. So what if someone wants to build a huge house? How is that harming anyone else? If I were wealthy I would totally build a McMansion because I want it, I like it, and I would love to live in it. Who cares?

wil421 9y ago
But then what would we argue about? I know someone who sends letters repeatedly to GEICO because he hates their commercials. Why waste the effort?
dagw 9y ago
If I were wealthy I would totally build a McMansion If you were wealthy why not put in the tiny bit of extra effort build a well constructed, nice, huge house that will last for generations?
- jasondemeuse 9y ago
  I don't think OP read enough of the article to know what "McMansion" actually implies...
eropple 9y ago
So you like houses that incorporate inefficient interior plans and incoherent external features that don't understand what they ape, don't ape it all that well, and don't create a cohesive whole with the house or environment around it--but do sport poor, cheap construction and expensive-means-good internal features designed around checking off boxes rather than achieving the goals those features are ordinarily designed for? Math checks out to me. (Oh, and she's not a "girl", she's in her twenties, unless we're going to play the "use the term 'girl' to minimize a woman" game and we're not, and that 99% Invisible episode strikes me as pretty good because it reveals what people don't think about, as is their stated goal.)
cr0sh 9y ago
I don't have any problem with someone building a huge, and subjectively "ugly" McMansion-style house if they want. What I have a problem with is where they usually locate these houses. In many (not all, not most) cases, the builders locate the house in an area completely unsuited for the property. They'll find some low-cost home in an established neighborhood of 30-40 year-old ranch homes (for instance), then tear that house down (or maybe they'll buy two lots next to each other!), then build the monstrosity that towers over everything else in the neighborhood. They'll get variances and whatnot to build nearly up to every property line within fire-codes. It becomes a nightmare for the rest of the property owners; usually their homes will decrease in value as a result, due to nobody wanting to purchase or live in their home with such a structure nearby. Of course, this may cause them to sell their property at a loss - perhaps to another developer who puts up another such McMansion... There's such a thing, when you are building in an established neighborhood, to be a good neighbor and build something that fits in (both style and size) with the rest of the homes. Same if you modify the existing home; you don't want to go too crazy with style or structure, because this can devalue properties around you. It all comes down to whether you have any empathy for other people; whether you can place yourself in their shoes and say to yourself "if someone were doing this to a house near me, would it be a problem?" Unfortunately, too many people that do this don't care, or can't empathise - or if they can, again - they don't care. They just want to build, and flip it for the cash. It's a grab, plain and simple. Rarely do the people who build these live in them, because that would put them at the ire of their (now ticked off) neighbors.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

woodruffw 9y ago

This is a real shame. McMansion Hell was one of my favorite sites, and one of the few that I would repeatedly check for updates. IANAL, but her case seems cut-and-dry by fair use standards. I hope that she fights it and seeks the help of her (very appreciative) readers in fighting it.

iosDrone 9y ago

I'm never in favor of any speech being censored (especially fair use speech), including in this case. But as someone who wants to one day buy a huge McMansion in Vegas just for personal gratification, fuck all of these self-righteous snobs.

bleepity 9y ago
Except that she points out McMansions are shoddily built and won't last-- one of her photos shows a McMansion with especially severe water damage, for instance. Re-roofing that wackadoodle roofline is so cost-prohibitive you might as well just burn the thing and start over. If you ever have the money for "personal gratification", why not buy an actual mansion built with actual quality?
- iosDrone 9y ago
  This is kind of splitting hairs. Obviously it's not smart to build something with shit quality that won't last. To me, the biggest difference between a mansion and a McMansion isn't build quality, it's size. I probably won't have the money to build a place that's 10,000 sq. feet, nor would I want to. But 3500-5000 is feasible.

jdelsman 9y ago

Heh... https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmans...

slaymaker1907 9y ago

I really don't understand how this doesn't fall under fair use. The images are quite clearly being used for criticism and satire which is protected speech. Is this just a case of the power of the almighty $$$ or is there something I'm missing?

breatheoften 9y ago

How did zillow force the removal of the posts??

wmoser 9y ago

For those of you that enjoyed the site, you might enjoy this one as well. It was the first thing I thought of when reading the description of the McMansion Hell website: http://blog.buildllc.com/2010/04/couch-cushion-architecture-a-critical-analysis/ http://blog.buildllc.com/2010/04/couch-cushion-architecture-...

codingdave 9y ago

I don't know the full context of what is going on legally, but I do know that being threatened is not the same thing as getting sued. And getting sued is not the same thing as them having a case. And them having a case is not the same thing as you not having a defense. Lawyers exist for a reason. Don't let other lawyers bully you with threats. Get your own lawyer to look into things. Back down if it makes sense. Sometimes it does. But don't back down just because you get threatened.

kadavero 9y ago
Do you also know that even talking to a lawyer when threatened costs money? And that Zillow is likely to have way more money to spend on lawyers than a blog?
- codingdave 9y ago
  Attitudes like that are exactly what attorneys count on to bully the little guys. Many attorneys will give free consultations. Also, keep in mind that I'm not specifically talking about Zillow right now... I'm saying that you shouldn't let yourself get bullied. Running scared from a letter is just a bad practice.

noonespecial 9y ago

1) Aren't the images used as part of a critique? Isn't that classic fair use? 2) I was under the impression nearly all of the photos on Zillow come from MLS anyway.

francisofascii 9y ago

Here is a podcast she did in 2016 with James Howard Kunstler. http://kunstler.com/podcast/chatting-kate-wagner-mcmansion-hell-dot-com/ http://kunstler.com/podcast/chatting-kate-wagner-mcmansion-h...

jszymborski 9y ago

Mirror of the site: https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmans...

zifnab06 9y ago
It's dead, they updated their robots.txt. I really wish archive.org wouldn't honor that.
- jszymborski 9y ago
  especially not retroactively, didn't know they do that :( Regardless, there's always another mirror somewhere else; nothing on the internet dies. http://archive.is/GXxIc http://archive.is/GXxIc

slantedview 9y ago

A status update on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879483071988367360 https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879483071988367360

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

SnowingXIV 9y ago

So this made things even more difficult for me. I'm looking to buy a new house for around 300-500K. And I'd hate for it to be one of these, I don't need it to be some unique hipster snowflake because I need it to be marketable and sell well in the Midwest so most families are buying pretty standard craftsman style houses. Not the Silicon Valley entire house is a massive window. Main concern is getting money back or more and not doing some massive risk which is what this blog might be advocating.

triangleman 9y ago
You'll be fine.

robbiemitchell 9y ago

Cargo cult architecture?

Houshalter 9y ago

I really dislike this blog. Their rules are just subjective opinions and completely arbitrary. They don't give any arguments or reasoning to support them. When they do the side by side comparisons with traditional architecture, I usually prefer the McMansions. They just look cooler. I like that they aren't perfectly symmetrical and simple. Much of their advice could actually be harmful. E.g. reducing the number of windows to make it fit into their desired style. Windows have been shown to be very beneficial to mental health. E.g. hospital patients in a room with a window recover earlier, depressed people improve a bit when they can see trees, bright sunlight is hugely important in establishing the circadian rhythm, etc. Or the demands for the houses to be perfectly symmetrical and "balanced" is very constraining. It eliminates 99% of design space. There are otherwise more optimal designs that must be discarded because they don't meet that constraint. A room must arbitrarily become so much bigger or smaller, or eliminated entirely, to satisfy it. And the same is true for all of the rules. They are all purely aesthetic constraints.

jameskegel 9y ago
"What she said is invalid because I have personal preferences"
- Houshalter 9y ago
  That's their argument not mine. They don't talk about personal preferences. They talk about their rules like they are objective facts, and are extremely condescending to anyone that thinks differently. If they would admit it was their personal aesthetic preferences, then that's fine.

archon810 9y ago

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170626/14563337675/zillow-sends-totally-bullshit-legal-threat-to-mcmansionhell.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170626/14563337675/zillo...

dredmorbius 9y ago

apt install dnsmasq echo "address=/zillow.com/0.0.0.0" >> /etc/dnsmasq.conf && /etc/init.d/dnsmasq restart

dredmorbius 9y ago

This brings to mind Nina Paley's "Copyright is Brain Damage": https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9FKQAxWZc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9FKQAxWZc Paley is in the process of creating an epic animated story, using music appropriated with out rights, as a protest piece against copyright. She addresses the question somewhat at her blog: http://blog.ninapaley.com/?s=copyright+is+brain+damage&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Search http://blog.ninapaley.com/?s=copyright+is+brain+damage&submi... If you're looking for a transcript, I'm not aware of one, though Techdirt addresses some of the points raised: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151022/23582332603/nina-paley-argues-why-copyright-is-brain-damage.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151022/23582332603/nina-...

k5hp 9y ago

Mirror: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99gQJSsJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-offline-for-a-while+ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99g...

mavhc 9y ago

Large houses are terrible for humans, using more energy, taking up more space, therefore causing more travel, more car usage. I'm impressive by the millionaire whose house is small and efficient.

galfarragem 9y ago

This is what happens when you scratch big dogs. As an architect, I take my hat to whistleblowing construction businesses that profit mostly on layman's ignorance.

forgotpwtomain 9y ago

Website administrators: Please do not disable everything except google bot in your robots.txt [0][1] - this is a terrible practice making our internet worse. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-offline-for-a-while https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/p... [1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99gQJSsJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-offline-for-a-while+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99...

pascalxus 9y ago

This site seems like Class elitism and smells of Class warfare. It seems quite bitter too. A few of her architectural points are correct: a missing column here or there, perhaps some matching windows. But, most of her commentary is reaching and snarky. She might have fared much better if she put a positive spin on it and told people how to improve there architecture rather than picking apart every minor flaw, to which otherwise would be a great mcMansion. I found most of the houses and pictures shown on there quite good looking. I would be really lucky to live in anything posted on there. I don't think she's seen bad looking architecture yet. Obviously, she's never looked at housing in CA. And criticizing a house for having too small a lot - that's just really low. That's like criticizing a poor kid for not having any money. People don't get to chose the cost of land in their area. It's decided upon by voters and government. If she has a problem with lot sizes, she ought to blame voters not the house.

adultSwim 9y ago

Say it ain't so