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As a fish loving Indian, I was totally surprised to see that in Capitalist America the choice of fish was absolutely pathetic. At American fish places you only

• look_lookatme 9y ago
  For whatever reason Americans just don't eat a lot of seafood. This is why the choices are so bad in "Capitalist America" -- there's not enough demand. It's literally capitalism at work. Some theorize that this is due to American's avoiding flavor in general [1]. http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/07/01/327248504/the-great-fish-swap-how-america-is-downgrading-its-seafood-supply http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2014/07/01/327248504/the...
  • gutnor 9y ago
    Same in the UK btw. The fish choice in the biggest supermarket is smaller than you would expect in local store in the middle of Spain, away from the coast. Same thing happens with meat. There is a huge reduction of variety, even at the local fishmonger/butcher, compared to continental Europe (I'm sure it is coming though) A limited choice is available all the time everywhere, but the variety is not anymore.
    • vram22 9y ago
      Interesting. Due to commercialization? Possible some of the same is happening in India on some fronts, food or other, not studied it, just anecdotal, hence asking.
      • alasdair_ 9y ago
        Perhaps. For example, if you visit a supermarket in the UK or the USA at any time of the year, you can always find, say, fresh strawberries, despite the fruit only being locally in season for a month or two. There is very little genuinely "seasonal" produce, meat or fish in supermarkets and I think that this is a major factor in the lack of variety. Out of interest, if you went to an Indian market every three months, would you find all 100 different varieties of fish on offer every time, or does it change?
        • vram22 9y ago
          There are different kinds of markets in India - small mom-and-pop stores (kirana stores), wholesale markets (mandis) - but individual consumers often buy there too, because prices are lower, and malls / supermarkets like in the West (from the last decade or two). India is also big and not homogeneous. So I can't give a general answer, only about what I know: - first, fish, as has been said about the US in this thread, is not eaten much inland (though some fresh-water fish is), due to distances and heat and spoiling, and while India has a large coast, it has an even larger interior. - second, I doubt there are even close to 100 varieties of fish available (in markets) at the coasts, maybe 20 to 40; those who know more, feel free to correct me, I don't live near the coast (though did long ago), and don't eat fish. - third, I don't think that in any of the types of markets, I mentioned, all the same varieties would be available all year round (and kiranas don't sell fish or meat at all, except some may, but only tinned). It is a mix of some staples and some seasonal items.
          • vram22 9y ago
            >I doubt there are even close to 100 varieties of fish available (in markets) at the coasts, maybe 20 to 40 E.g. I've visited Goa (a coastal state) a few times, and at least at the beach restaurants / shacks, where they lay out the fish and other seafood varieties for inspection by customers, I don't remember seeing more than 20 or so items - kingfish, mackerel, red snapper, pomfret, crabs, a couple of types / sizes of prawns, squid, shark, that's almost it. One place that I went to a few times, had seafood special nights (the owner fished as a hobby), where there were a few more kinds, like barracuda, tuna, mussels, etc. These were in general touristy areas though. Local markets and restaurants may have more varieties.
    • gambiting 9y ago
      Yep, I felt like my choice was cut in half after I moved to the UK. Even if you go to a butcher the approach seems to be "here's the 5 cuts I made today, take it or leave it". And don't even try mentioning buying offal - even if I go to an actual butcher, offal is "special order only" and I have to wait a few days to get it. I live in a coastal town, and the choice of fresh fish is limited to just a few. Very disappointed.
    • efaref 9y ago
      In the UK we also have the after-effects of the Common Fisheries Policy, which has seen a ~50% decline in our local fishing industry since the 1970s. In 2014 UK fishing boats landed 424ktonnes of fish into UK ports, while we imported 720ktonnes of fish, mostly from outside the EU.
  • nyolfen 9y ago
    i think the answer is simply that most of america is very far inland, and seafood is best fresh -- especially if one is especially sensitive to the 'fishy' taste it acquires after about a day or two, even frozen. every coastal community i've ever spent time in has a plethora of seafood restaurants, though i'm not sure if this extends to grocery stores.
    • tmalsburg2 9y ago
      Most of the landmass is far from the coasts, true, but the population concentrates at the coasts. So the geography is probably not the reason why fish is less popular in the US. There are probably multiple reasons but one could be that the competition from meat is very strong. Coming from Europe, I was always surprised how cheap meat is in the US.
      • opportune 9y ago
        Yeah all these people talking about Americans not having good taste in food are entirely missing the point. It has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with economics. There's no reason to eat fish when in almost all cases chicken, pork, and beef provide much cheaper and filling sources of protein. I mean, I love the taste of fish, but even I rarely eat it because it's just that much more efficient to feed myself with chicken and red meat.
        • davidw 9y ago
          The US is a pretty wealthy place. I lived in Italy for something like 15 years, and people there eat a lot of fish too, of varying kinds. By and large, they do not have as much money as people do in the US. If it were only about efficiency, you'd probably just eat beans and rice, day in and day out, with a bit of this and that thrown in. Edit: BTW, this book has some interesting ideas about the US and food: http://amzn.to/2oVeaYz http://amzn.to/2oVeaYz Among other things, he points out that the US does have slow food with a high degree of regional variety: barbecue.
          • 9y ago
  • graphitezepp 9y ago
    At least will be used to it for when fish prices (probably) go up in the future global due to poor environmental conditions in the ocean. Gotta look on the bright side I guess.
  • js2 9y ago
    The author interviewed in this piece is the subject of a recent Frontline: The Fish on My Plate. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-plate/ http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-fish-on-my-plate/ It's about his experiment of eating fish as his only protein for a whole year, as well as an investigation of where our fish comes from, fish farming practices, sustainability, etc. Aside, it may be a good thing Americans don't eat as much seafood as the rest of the world. I'm not sure the oceans could keep up with the demand. Allegedly very few fisheries are well managed.
    • Nomentatus 9y ago
      Fish isn't complete protein for humans, you will starve if it's literally your only protein (no wheat, lentils, etc.)
      • pizza 9y ago
        Why?
        • Nomentatus 9y ago
          One amino acid is missing, as I remember.
      • vinay427 9y ago
        I'm not sure where you got this information, but it is incorrect. Corrected for digestibility, it is not ideal, but is still complete: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_protein
      • imesh 9y ago
        Umm... How did Polynesians survive with their fish filled lentil free diet? I guess greens? I think your info is wrong.
        • lackbeard 9y ago
          Polynesians ate pig. They took pigs with them wherever they went. (Yes, even on long ocean voyages.) I'm not arguing for or against the quality of fish protein, just pointing out Polynesians had pigs...
  • anigbrowl 9y ago
    Americans avoid flavor because of capitalism, in my view. There is huge money in feeding people bland crap that's been processed as heavily as possible. Frankly, I'm astonished at people's willingness to consume shitty food that is obviously likely to have a detrimental impact on their health. I would prefer to go hungry or eat the same boring but nutritious meal day after day than consume bad food, and frankly I think I've avoiding a hell of future medical misery by not stuffing my body with crap.
    • briandear 9y ago
      Perhaps some data to back that up? Some of the best restaurants and chefs in the world are American. Have you been to an American grocery store of any reasonable quality? The cheese selection of many big-city grocery stores rivals even French grocery stores. I shop in France all the time and I am still amazed at the variety at many American grocery stores. Try finding Napa/Chinese cabbage, fresh chiles, daikon radish or any number of ethnic staples in a typical French grocery store -- its very difficult. I love my local grocery store but for sheer variety, American wins big. This tired trope about Americans eating so much processed food is often passed around by people that seem to not be very familiar with what grocery stores in the rest of the world sell. The French have entire stores dedicated to pre-packaged, frozen meals. Stereotypes are often based in truth, but that doesn't mean they are true. Your average American grocery store has the ingredients to make almost any cuisine on earth, yet I have to import tortilla flour from the US because the only thing resembling Mexican food in France is "Old El Paso." Korean ingredients? Good luck with that. There's a tired section of soy sauces that consist of Kikkoman generic crap and that's about it. In a US store, I can find at at least 5 different kinds of soy sauces. Actual Asian noodles as well. People seem to have a hobby bashing Americans, yet the American grocery store is a temple to the success of capitalism, world trade and diversity. Ever been to a "non-capitalist" grocery store in China? Once you do that, then perhaps you could opine on how bad capitalism is for food. Capitalism is the very reason you can find enoki mushrooms in Omaha, habaneros in Minnesota or Serbian rakija in Los Angeles. I am not saying that Americans always make the best nutritional choices -- but it isn't due to the lack of opportunity to do so.
      • 9y ago
  • EliRivers 9y ago
    It's literally capitalism at work. The market at work, surely.
  • tw04 9y ago
    Which we should all rejoice. Because the oceans are already being over fished to the point we're facing a very real likelihood of collapse. If Americans were pulling at the same rate as nations like Japan or India, we'd all be in a very bad place already.
    • nickparker 9y ago
      Beef and pork are significantly worse than seafood in terms of environmental impact. There's nothing to celebrate in the sources of American protein. If America was as hungry for seafood as East Asia, fisheries would have depleted enough to create frighteningly high prices long ago, and we'd probably have a thriving aquaculture industry today.
      • wahern 9y ago
        I'm very skeptical of that claim, particularly wrt pork. Once we've completely depleted the oceans of wild fish stock and rely entirely aquaculture, then it'll be a fair comparison. According to this article, based on CO2 production farmed salmon has the same impact as pork: http://www.ewg.org/meateatersguide/a-meat-eaters-guide-to-climate-change-health-what-you-eat-matters/climate-and-environmental-impacts/ And chicken has a substantially lower impact than either.
        • coin 9y ago
          I wouldn't trust anything from EWG. They are an agenda driven pseudoscience organization. They actively criticize conventional agriculture (see their "dirty" dozen list) and vehemently oppose genetic engineering.
      • culot 9y ago
        I live near the Great Lakes, so there is literally no such thing as a safe fish to eat. Every fish has a limit to how much you can eat and how often -- that is if you are an adult male, if female or child you are far more limited yet. Especially near me, where the waterways are also toiletways. You'd have to go out into the lake to escape the toilet and dioxin-laden water, where the fish should never be eaten, and even then you have, like I said above, a limit depending on how much toxic fish you feel comfortable ingesting.
  • CPLX 9y ago
    The largest national/ethnic group contributing to the American population is German, followed by the British Isles/Ireland, none of which are known for a heavily seafood based culinary tradition. Could be relevant as well.
    • vram22 9y ago
      >The largest national/ethnic group contributing to the American population is German, followed by the British Isles/Ireland I would have thought people from the British Isles were the largest group, based on what I've read about America, the Pilgrims, etc. Is that wrong?
      • CPLX 9y ago
        Yes that's what people think instinctively but it's incorrect. Part of the issue is that two world wars served to erase tremendous amounts of the visible cultural legacy of the German influence on the US, streets and towns were renamed, biergardens turned into bars, and so on. The culinary influence is right there in plain sight though if you look for it, from the names of our big mainstream brewing companies to our national favorites, the Frankfurter and the Hamburger.
        • caf 9y ago
          Maybe I'm slow, but I've sometimes idly wondered why Hamburgers contain no Ham - and your comment finally made be twig: it's Hamburger as in /ˈhambɜːrɡər/ not /ˈhæmbɜːrɡər/ !
          • logfromblammo 9y ago
            Some things that are not completely obviously named after places: hamburger => Hamburg frankfurter => Frankfurt wiener => Vienna pilsner => Plzeň seltzer => Selters
        • look_lookatme 9y ago
          BBQ, too. For instance, the Texas style of smoked BBQ is rooted in German immigration to central Texas.
  • ams6110 9y ago
    Americans have also been scared away from eating a lot of fish over fears of mercury and PCB contamination. America is also a big place. Fresh fish spoils quickly. So no, you won't see a lot of selection at a midwestern supermarket. If you're near a coast, the selection and number of specialty seafood shops is a lot better.
    • zanny 9y ago
      I would be surprised if major metro areas didn't have enough seafood demand to justify building inland fish farms to supply the urban centers.
      • stupidhn 9y ago
        People are also afraid of fish farms.
        • RussianCow 9y ago
          [citation needed] In my experience, a minority of people pay attention to where their food comes from. I'd bet the average consumer purchasing fish wouldn't be able to tell you whether it was farmed or wild caught.
      • linkregister 9y ago
        If you go to your Safeway, Publix, or Kroger, you'll probably find half the salmon to be farm-raised. And all the catfish.
        • jsymolon 9y ago
          Farm raised Salmon is salmon in name only. Different taste and color. I'll pay the extra $4-5 dollar a pound when in "season" for the real thing.
    • engx 9y ago
      I'm not directly responding to your comment but some of the best sushi chefs use fish that was frozen. And this says all sushi served in the US has to be freezed to kill any bacteria- https://mobile.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/nyregion/sushi-fresh-from-the-deep-the-deep-freeze.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2004/04/08/nyregion/sushi-fresh-f...
  • leekyle 9y ago
    I wonder how much this has to do with peoples common initial exposure to bad seafood. Good fish doesn't smell fishy and most the fish you get at a supermarket has a strong fishy smell/flavor. You shouldn't be able to smell the fish until you put it up to your nose.
  • JCzynski 9y ago
    That can't be right. I basically don't eat fish because it's too bland. Salmon's a little better than white fish, but it's all just a vehicle for whatever sauce you put on it. Chicken at leasts tastes umami.
  • lightedman 9y ago
    "For whatever reason Americans just don't eat a lot of seafood." Pretty much every place I've lived on both coasts, you couldn't go the day without hearing about someone wanting a tuna burrito, or fish tacos, or shrimp stew (Frogmore stew specifically) or lobster or crab or flounderor more. So maybe the inland Americans don't eat as much seafood, but rarely does a day go by here on the West Coast that I don't hear about or personally think about eating some seafood.
  • duncan_bayne 9y ago
    They're fond of apostrophes though ;)
  • tn135 9y ago
    The capitalist America was just a tongue in cheek remark. In fact 99Ranch's offerings are actually result of capitalism toom.
• tomcam 9y ago
  OTOH try getting a real salad in China
  • joss82 9y ago
    Or, god forbid, a pizza!
    • seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Mr. Pizza has you covered. A Korean chain in Beijing, who believe corn mayonnaise pizza is a good thing. At least Chinese pizzerias don't use ketchup as tomatoes sauce anymore....those were the days!
      • clairity 9y ago
        no need to go abroad for that. there's a mr. pizza in LA's koreatown. =)
        • deleted 9y ago
          [deleted]
      • briandear 9y ago
        Although -- Kimchi pizza is pretty awesome after a long night of Soju and singing. But I never got the corn thing..
        • magic_beans 9y ago
          I always add kimchi to my pizza as a condiment. Amazing.
    • nommm-nommm 9y ago
      There's a lot of places in the US you can't get a decent pizza.
      • 9y ago
• chimeracoder 9y ago
  > As a fish loving Indian, I was totally surprised to see that in Capitalist America the choice of fish was absolutely pathetic As explained below, the issue is one of demand. For whatever reason, people in the US don't like fish. I'm Bengali, which means our cuisine includes a lot of fish. But in the US, I almost never eat fish in restaurants - only when we're cooking it at home. And that's because the way it's cooked is absolutely terrible. People in the US tend to prefer fish that's already bland to begin with (cod, haddock, tilapia, and sometimes tuna or salmon), and the ways they like it cooked don't add very much flavor to the process. So, for people like me who actually enjoy tasty fish, there are very few options in the US (short of cooking it ourselves) because there are very few others (like me) in the US who actually enjoy tasty fish. It's sad, but true.
  • Dwolb 9y ago
    For reference what are the flavorful types of fish and which types of cooking add more flavor to the process?
  • XaspR8d 9y ago
    > People in the US tend to prefer fish that's already bland to begin with (cod, haddock, tilapia, and sometimes tuna or salmon) To be fair, in the Midwest this is often because there used to be a diet of much more flavorful freshwater fish from local lakes, but overfishing destroyed their populations and pushed prices way up, forcing cuisine to adapt to cheap saltwater fish.
    • a3n 9y ago
      Fresh water fish strikes me as likely very labor intensive, and labor is searched for and destroyed in this country, in favor of industrial sized processes and yields. I see big fillets of salmon and other large fish in Krogers, from the large industrial supply chain, next to the occasional little trouts and whatevers, and I often wonder "where do those little guys come from? How is it possible for them to get into this case?" I'm not at all aware of any fresh water/river fishing companies, it strikes me as unsustainable except on a semi-recreational basis.
• L_Rahman 9y ago
  Tradeoffs: America has a lot of land, and infrastructure to feed, raise and transport animals. Meat prices in America are so cheap relative to cost of living it's staggering. But yes, this means our seafood market choice is pretty bad.
  • zanny 9y ago
    Meat prices are also heavily subsidized to the tune of billions of dollars a year. It is probably the US's most subsidized "crop", even compared to the infamous corn. The real price of most grocery store meat is in the ballpark of twice the sale price. The difference just comes out in taxes. It is also what drives a lot of the unhealthy eating habits in the states.
• gumby 9y ago
  This may have something to do with the area/perimeter ratio (lots of fish dishes if you live near the coast). Fish is hardly common in most US restaurants that are near rives though, so my conjecture may be false.
• criddell 9y ago
  Different markets. My local grocery store probably has 150 ft of cooler space devoted to beer. About half is Budweiser, Miller, and other huge brands, the rest is from smaller brewers, many of which are local. How does the selection compare at the local Lulu Hypermart?
• xiaosun 9y ago
  I think this has to do with the type of fish typically used in western cuisine, which is heavily biased to larger fish that can be cooked as filets or have less bones. Asian cuisine makes much greater use of smaller fish that are oftentimes cooked whole, so the range of options tends to be larger as well.
  • icebraining 9y ago
    Western cuisine is far from homogeneous. We use plenty of small fish in Southern Europe (and we eat a lot of fish) - sardines, blackbelly rosefish, atlantic horse mackerel, blackspot seabream, etc.
• matwood 9y ago
  Are those 100 fish in the market all local and fresh? I live on the coast in 'Capitalist America', and usually only eat fish that is fresh (thus typically local). Most of the markets only stock said types of fish/shrimp/oysters because I have always assumed it is what people want. I have noticed more non-local fish show up as mid-westerners have moved to my coastal city though.
• mncharity 9y ago
  It's not just fish. A staple of graduate student conversation is "Food X was a favorite of mine at home, but" "I can't find it in Boston" or "the American version is a bad tasteless joke". One issue is lag - the American general food supply diversifies more slowly than the population. Another issue is corporate consolidation of the food supply chain. For example, New England used to have a lot of small confectionery manufacturers, from big factories to mom&pops, which over the last three decades have most all been crushed out by Nabisco. Which is much lower quality. So "why doesn't Boston have good confectionery like", err, Castile? Well, we used to be a lot closer, but Nabisco et al.
  • briandear 9y ago
    Mexican food was a favorite of mine in the United States, but in France it tastes like cardboard. I want to find <some product> but France doesn't sell it. This conversation can be had in literally any country in the world. Can't find a decent cheeseburger in Delhi, can't find decent cheese in Shanghai, nearly impossible to find good tequila in Germany. Every country has foods they're good at and foods they're not. As far as the death of small producers, why by Boston chocolate when I can buy actual high quality Swiss chocolate at a lower price? Why buy some marginal local beer when I can buy literally the best beers in the world. Globalization certainly has its negatives, but on balance there is more variety than every before.
    • CPLX 9y ago
      > Every country has foods they're good at and foods they're not. I mean... sure. But I've travelled a whole lot of the world and some places on average have way better food than others. It's sort of impossible to go to Lyon, France, say, and then pretend everywhere else's food is just like different, but no worse.
      • emodendroket 9y ago
        If you spent a year or more in a Lyon I think you'd have a much easier time thinking of things you wished they had.
• kirykl 9y ago
  Capitalist America balances supply and demand. However your experience must be limited. I know of several fish markets, in my area in the US and other places I've lived, with a variety of fish and knowledgeable staff.
• alasdair_ 9y ago
  It depends on where you live. The fish selection in Seattle is pretty good, with lots of genuinely fresh options (i.e. the boat comes in from Alaska and the king crab or whatever comes off and is sold within an hour) The lobster in Maine is similarly good and fresh, as is the crawfish in Louisiana. If you want to get good fresh fish a thousand miles away from the coast then, yes, the selection will be poor and likely limited to a small number of varieties.
• hinkley 9y ago
  Go to the coasts, and the selection is better. Fish just doesn't make it far inland, unless it's freshwater fish.
• jandrese 9y ago
  Most of what you see in a US grocery store is farm raised, because the market has grown too big for the oceans and rivers to sustain it. Since it is farm raised you see mostly fish that are easy to farm.
• lnanek2 9y ago
  Haha, yea, my wife who is Chinese loves 99Ranch and finds all sorts of things our local neighborhood American groceries don't have.
• mmanfrin 9y ago
  totally surprised to see that in Capitalist America the choice of fish was absolutely pathetic followed by Then I entered 99Ranch and since then my respect of my eastern neighbours has gone up significantly Because a supermarket founded in California is not part of America? Not to mention the fact that the antecedent statement is just factually wrong -- my local grocer offers at least 20 varieties of fish as well (including about 5 or 6 different Salmons) and is a plain-as-day "American" market.
  • plandis 9y ago
    I think what the person you're responding to meant to say was: "I'm disappointed the US isn't exactly like where I'm from. By US I mean the very few places I've been."
• dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  As an American who's friends have visited India I'd have to say reduced selection is a fair trade-off for ubiquitous refrigeration.
• scurvy 9y ago
  You need to visit more of the US than just the Bay Area, CA. Bay Area seafood is pretty weak overall as there's not that much left locally. It's mostly imported. In fact, most of the stuff in CA isn't that great; you need to go up to Oregon and Washington to get really good seafood at regular, non-exorbitant pricing. If you go to the East Coast or Gulf Coast (especially), you'll find a very different seafood culture. It's cheap, plentiful, varied, and part of the local food culture.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• throwaway9283 9y ago
  > My small village fish market offers at least 20 varieties of fish in India's coastal region. A proper fish market would offer at least 100. Which state did you grow up in if you don't mind me asking ?
• rdslw 9y ago
  Good that you didnt visit their cheese department... Buy hey, they have 200 different types of energy bars in medium size shops ;)
• AllenKids 9y ago
  Yup, as a Chinese I find seafood selection in your typical US supermarket borderline offensive if not so pathetic. In China even a small city with 400000 population (that is small in China, don't argue.) located 1000 miles from sea would at least have fresh clams and a few live sea fish in watertanks at walmart. In America all you average consumers buy are vacuum-sealed squares of bland fillet.
• mwfunk 9y ago
  I bet if I went to India and complained about how pathetic the local hamburger places were, you might wonder about my maturity/worldliness/naivete/etc. You might also rightfully wonder why I was so intent on looking for hamburgers (or Chinese-American food, or Texas barbecue, or whatever) in India, when there are so many other food choices to explore. Every place you go in the world is going to be lacking in some things you took for granted at home, replaced by many other things that are new to you. This is a good thing, not something to complain about, and certainly not something to insult another country over.
  • simooooo 9y ago
    This county was shit! It didn't have pond hockey?
  • euyyn 9y ago
    Ok, but we're not talking about a specific dish, we're talking about ingredients, so to speak. It's surprising because the US has huge coasts that span climates. I was surprised by it too, and I'm from Spain, whose cuisine is unrelated to India's.
    • mwfunk 9y ago
      I understand, but it's just a function of what sells and what doesn't. Americans in general aren't nearly as into fish as some other countries, therefore the big supermarket chains don't offer as much variety as some other countries. It's just not a staple in most households. People who do want more variety go to more specialized stores like Ranch 99 (which is just as American as Safeway, not sure why the poster suggested otherwise), which aren't hard to find. The poster seemed to blame it on capitalism, but if so I don't see the point in defying capitalism by having the government require the big supermarket chains to stock 100 types of fish that are going to go mostly unsold and get thrown away. That sort of wastefulness sounds a lot worse than requiring the poster to spend 5 minutes Googling for more specialized stores nearby that sells what he wants.