23 ms·

If you opened your PayPal account before you were 18, close it

• MatCarpenter 9y ago
  As someone who has been working online since 16 years old, this worries me.
  • a3n 9y ago
    [If you are underage] have your parents or some other trusted adult relative open an account for the sole purpose of receiving your payments.
• zepolen 9y ago
  The day Bitcoin will replace Paypal for online transactions can not come fast enough.
  • p49k 9y ago
    As much as I dislike PayPal, I would never want to trade it for Bitcoin. All it takes is one zero-day exploit for all of my funds to disappear at once without a trace. Any purchase I would make has zero protection and zero recourse for recovering funds if I'm ripped off. No, thanks. I just want something like PayPal, but that is run by people who have empathy and care about providing a good experience.
    • nicky0 9y ago
      Depends how you store your bitcoin. You can't zero-day exploit a cold wallet.
      • p49k 9y ago
        I don't use bitcoin, so I might be missing something, but don't you have to transfer funds from the cold wallet to your device at some point, and doesn't that mean that any malware waiting on your device could just grab the whole thing at that exact moment? In any case, even if you could secure the wallet, it still doesn't address the fact that once the funds are sent, they're not recoverable; I think it's unreasonable to expect a payment system with no rollback mechanism to go mainstream.
        • maxerickson 9y ago
          It should be possible to generate a transaction on a secure system and only move that to the networked system. The transaction data would only be useful for the specific transaction, it couldn't be used to move funds to addresses not in the transaction or to move additional funds between the addresses, etc. It'd be a glorious pain in the ass to do it, but it is possible.
          • floatboth 9y ago
            IIRC Armory provides a user interface for doing this. Still, that's probably too paranoid for most typical transactions.
        • nicky0 9y ago
          You do have to sign a transaction using your private key. However this signature can occur totally offline in a non-connected device. Only the resulting signature has to be transmitted to the network. Irrevocability of transfers can be seen as a benefit or a drawback of course.
        • jstanley 9y ago
          > don't you have to transfer funds from the cold wallet to your device at some point You can use a hardware wallet. I do. All of the cryptography takes place on the hardware wallet device, and there is only a small, well-defined interface between the wallet device and the computer. I use a Trezor[1], and like it. A Ledger Nano S[2] is also good (a bit more button-clicking required on the device, but improved Ethereum support - it integrates with Mist with no additional setup required). [1] https://shop.trezor.io/ https://shop.trezor.io/ [2] https://www.ledgerwallet.com/products/12-ledger-nano-s https://www.ledgerwallet.com/products/12-ledger-nano-s
      • jaclaz 9y ago
        Still, a number of things may go bad, at least judging from: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Cold_storage
    • jliptzin 9y ago
      It's not as easy as you think to just have bitcoins stolen from you, especially if you know what you're doing. You're more likely to just forget your password or something. And as for zero purchase protection, you can use escrow services for significant purchases.
      • zokier 9y ago
        > And as for zero purchase protection, you can use escrow services for significant purchases. And that gets us back to paypal (which started up as an escrow for ebay afterall) or some equivalent. Bitcoin offers no help here.
    • atemerev 9y ago
      My Bitcoin funds are stored in cold storage (private key printed on paper and stored in wall safe; good luck in zero-daying _that_). The only thing that can end Bitcoin is breaking sec256k1 elliptic curve, and this is unlikely to happen soon.
      • brador 9y ago
        The value of Bitcoin is based on the collective faith of the network. With a 0day that faith is destroyed and those cold storage Bitcoins hit $0 just like any fiat currency.
        • atemerev 9y ago
          Didn't happen so far, despite enormous incentives. There's always a possibility, of course.
  • the976788 9y ago
    They closed my account (Ireland) in 2011, many phonecalls emails later they won't tell me why, I looked around back then and discovered bitcoin @4$, in hindsight my little bitcoin pile and PayPal induced curiosity was a positive, portion of the coins I haven't spent by now are worth into 6 figures now, so thank you shitpal I might one day soon lodge complaint with data ombudsman if PayPal refuse to handover data stored on me
    • cmurf 9y ago
      Six figures as in at least $100,000? Start the ombudsman process on Monday? And set a timer for turning it over to a lawyer. They can send a nastygram that'll should get it the proper attention. This is larceny if it's willful. Don't wait.
      • phonon 9y ago
        I think the parent was trying to say that paypal closing his account in 2011 was what got him into bitcoin, of which he has now over $100k worth.
• jrnichols 9y ago
  What an epic failure on PayPal's part. Is there some banking law that I'm unaware of that would cause them to take such drastic actions? It sounds like the OP is definitely above the age of 18 now too, so why would PayPal suddenly decide to yank the rug out from under him? It'll be interesting to see if there's a follow up.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    I'm 26 now, almost 27. I think it was the "We'll contact you within 180 days" thing that pissed me off the most, because it's just such a crap, random number that I likely agreed to in their ToS. As a partial update, after spending 30 minutes clicking every page of the dashboard, it was obvious that money was stuck, and my friend couldn't dispute it as it was sent as a gift, as it wasn't payment for work. Luckily, if you head back to your settings and flick back to the old web UI whilst it's still available, the refund button shows up in the view transaction details page, and it let me refund it. I lost the £20 or so in fees, but at least I can pay some unexpected bills more easily now.
    • dangrossman 9y ago
      It's not random. It's the standard period for holding funds of a terminated merchant account with virtually any bank or credit card processor in the world. That's because it's the maximum chargeback period for most credit cards. If they release funds before that date, someone who paid you in the past could reverse that payment, and PayPal would have no funds of yours to cover it, leaving them on the hook for your loss.
    • goatforce5 9y ago
      > I likely agreed to in their ToS If they're saying you can't agree to the ToS when you're under 18, should they be able to hold on to the monies for 180 days because that's what the ToS said when you agreed to them?
      • dangrossman 9y ago
        Minors can enter contracts, and they are binding upon the minor until and unless the minor voids the contract. As he's no longer a minor, he would not be able to void it now, so he's bound by its terms.
• carsongross 9y ago
  > I’m not really sure what half a year of holding on to my money will help PayPal achieve It doesn't help them. If it were possible they would complete every transaction with minimal fuss. The reason transferring money is so difficult is due to governments who wish to prevent capital flight, "laundering", etc. Paypal fought against this intensely early on.
  • tyingq 9y ago
    PayPal does sometimes hold funds for those reasons, but they also hold them for their own, unrelated reasons. Is there something about this case that looks OFAC (or similar) related?
  • loeg 9y ago
    My traditional bank has fewer restrictions on money movement and far better customer service when further verification is needed than Paypal. They have to comply with the same regulations.
• zajd 9y ago
  Good enough reason to close my account, thanks for the heads up. Fuck PayPal.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    I wanted to end the article with 'Fuck PayPal' but I felt it was implied by that point. I've spent my entire Saturday so far logging in to things and updating them to use credit cards. Unfortunately there is one thing so far I'm struggling to use without PayPal, but I've contacted them and will hopefully resolve that one. What's even more annoying is I could use the PayPal account of my other half for now, but she thinks she opened hers around 16/17 too so I'm not taking that risk.
• huac 9y ago
  They had Paypal Student before, where your account would be linked to your parent's account. But they shut that down recently, with no way to reactivate or unlink the account, and you're unable to reuse your email when making another account.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    It's almost as if they have a PR department that's geared towards pissing people off.
  • wolfgang42 9y ago
    I had a Student account, and when I turned 18 they seemed surprised that I would want to disconnect it from my parents' account and turn it into a regular PayPal account. (I had some back-and-forth with their support, who eventually explained that my parents had to cancel my account so I could sign up for a regular account with the same email address.) This seems like the sort of thing you'd at least have a KB article about, if not an automated process, given that every single user of the service is going to want to do this eventually.
• tangerine11 9y ago
  Thanks for the heads up! I normally only use PayPal for purchases, but I looked up my email logs and realized I did create it when I was 17. it was easy enough to close my account and open another.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    I wish I'd known prior so I could have done the same, I've spent all day having to try and transfer accounts for hosting and so on. At least it'll help others avoid the same, takes away some of PayPal's 'get out of jail free' cards and maybe convinces a few people to stop funding them!
• c0achmcguirk 9y ago
  > There are alternatives to PayPal, it’s just become so ingrained in to online life that it can be easy to forget that. This is very true, but I like to think of how predominant MySpace and Hotmail were at one time. Someone will come along and do it better. Stripe, PaymentSpring, heck even Bitcoin are all potential disruptors here. I think the days of PayPal's dominance are numbered.
  • wslh 9y ago
    100% agree. For Americans I don't find a reason to use PayPal and for other countries they can use Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies without dealing with the risk of freezing your account. Indeed, I found PayPal simple to use as a merchant outside USA but now there are more alternatives.
  • senorjazz 9y ago
    I had more trouble with stripe, more fraud, less help than I had / have with Paypal
• loeg 9y ago
  Just close your account if you have a PayPal account at all. They limit and freeze funds at random and good luck resolving it. OP, You can refund the funds to the sender less Paypal's 30¢ cut, I believe. That might be the best way to get the money back to your friend, and then they can re-send it to you with something sane like Google Wallet.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    Thanks, I managed to do this an hour ago. It's actually hidden in the new UI, there was no button that would let me do it, I managed to go back to settings and re-enable the classic UI, then in the view transaction details page I found the missing refund button.
    • tyingq 9y ago
      I would be tempted to have my friend now send some small amount and then take PayPal to whatever the UK equivalent of small claims court is. PayPal would then have to spend money and time to deal with you. The beauty there is you don't have to win, to win. A £5 dispute costs them more than you, when you get to control the venue.
      • iDemonix 9y ago
        I did think about contacting the financial ombudsman or similar to recoup the fees or something, but I thought hopefully an article that gets a few thousand readers might do more financial damage than a hushed away small claims court ruling.
        • ookware 9y ago
          Contact the FCA in any case, I used to work for a bank and believe they charge the organisation per complaint whether upheld or not so can cost them time and money. Edited to correct to FCA - https://www.fca.org.uk/ https://www.fca.org.uk/
        • click170 9y ago
• mxstbr 9y ago
  This exact same thing happened to me, though I was thankfully allowed to withdraw my money and open a new account with the same bank details. Call your local PayPal support hotline and explain to them what happened, I was immediately escalated to higher level support who had me provide details of why the money was in my account, which they verified and then unlocked the withdrawal and bank accounts. Still had to make a new account, but that's a small price to pay!
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    I was tempted to call, but I just managed to refund the money (sans fees) to my friend and we'll use something else now. I'm not going to call or contact them at all, I'm no longer interested in using their services. I'm just going to unlink my account from everything and spread some well-deserved hate within a useful PSA.
• pdog 9y ago
  I close and reopen a PayPal account for every individual PayPal transaction I (rarely) need to make. It's a hassle, but I see no alternative if I don't want the account-based "features".
• omfg 9y ago
  Do people not realize PayPal has phone support? It's not some black hole of support. Just call them up like a normal company... they've been helpful for any odd issues we've had in the past.
  • Hydraulix989 9y ago
    The phone support is absolutely terrible. After spending 15 minutes on hold, you get connected with script readers with indecipherable foreign accents, and if they can't help you because it's not on their script (yes, I know how to use a web site, here's why the steps you gave me won't work), they advise you to open a case in the Resolution Center just to get you off the phone -- where I have one pending now for over six months (I paid an eBay seller who didn't ship me my item and whose account got banned by eBay shortly after I purchased it, so I can't open a claim on eBay to get a refund -- as a buyer, the UI for opening an eBay claim is completely inaccessible if a seller's account is banned. PayPal insists it's an eBay problem and I should talk to eBay, eBay insists it is a PayPal problem and that I should talk to PayPal; it's deadlocked). If you mention the word "eBay" at all to PayPal on the phone, they immediately transfer you to eBay (and vice versa). Classic game of "pass the buck." At one point, I managed to stump the PayPal script reader (my unique situation wasn't on the script), so they just transferred me to another T1 agent. There's zero recordkeeping at all (likely no ticketing system), so nobody knows anything at all about my case so it's like I'm talking to them for the first time any time I'm talking to a new person. So yes, it is some black hole of support.
    • omfg 9y ago
      They definitely have a ticketing system, and they do have support that knows what they're doing. Maybe it's just business support or something? We haven't run into issues like this when we call.
      • Hydraulix989 9y ago
        I'm using the normal customer service number 1 (888) 221-1161 that you get just by Googling for it. If you know some other way to get actual support, please do share. I want my money back! Until then, I'll believe it when I see it (extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence).
• GBond 9y ago
  The bright side is now that its on HN, you have a high chance the issue will be resolved for you.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    I've managed to recoup most of the money (minus fees, after 30 minutes of digging and switching to the classic UI), I'm not interested in using PayPal anymore. The good thing about it being on HN/Medium and getting some views is hopefully I'll save a few people the same hassle.
• jliptzin 9y ago
  Here's three rules someone once gave me which I can't emphasize strongly enough. 1. Never use Paypal. For ANY reason. 2. Never. Use. Paypal. For. Any. Reason. 3. See rule #1.
  • lj3 9y ago
    What's the alternative?
    • unstatusthequo 9y ago
      Venmo, Square Cash, etc. Xoom is PayPal now.
      • nmy 9y ago
        Venmo is Paypal as well
    • itake 9y ago
      facebook also has free payments
      • kefka 9y ago
        And I want to give Facebook my credit card why? Yeah, no.
        • geofft 9y ago
          What is the threat model you envision with giving Facebook your credit card number? Transactions are reversible by calling up your credit card company, and Facebook, for what little reputation it has, still has more of a reputation to uphold and more internal security controls than the local diner where you physically hand your card to a waiter and let them take it out of your sight.
          • geekamongus 9y ago
• ben0x539 9y ago
  Is there a way to find the precise age of your paypal account retroactively? It says mine was created the year of my 18th birthday, and I'm sure I did it all above-board, but it'd be nice to have it confirmed. Update: It looks like you can get some day/month number if you check your account limits at https://www.paypal.com/de/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_lift-limits https://www.paypal.com/de/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_lift-limits if you still have any, and combine them with the year it actually displays in the account settings. Makes me feel better at least.
  • aselzer 9y ago
    Or search for the "Welcome to Paypal" email if you haven't deleted it. Turns out my account was created when I was 14.
    • ben0x539 9y ago
      Yeah, looks like my mail backlog for that account falls a few years short. I guess I didn't know about IMAP back then, or had weird ideas about data retention. :/
    • iDemonix 9y ago
      Time to close it.
• MaximHarper 9y ago
  Same experience my end: https://twitter.com/MaximHarper/status/847071547772821505 https://twitter.com/MaximHarper/status/847071547772821505 PayPal is unfortunately still pretty central to eBay & I'm a payment geek so I've made a new account. Glad I didn't have any funds frozen though, that must suck.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    eBay is the biggest heartache for me, I do a lot with older cars and motorcycles, so buying/selling parts is routine for me and will be a pain to sort out.
• ben0x539 9y ago
  Also this is a great example of having rules that are bullshit enough that you can basically do anything to anyone and technically be perfectly justified according to some agreement, but also enforcing them arbitrarily enough that anyone who complains about the terms of the agreement will be brushed off as paranoid.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    Yeah, in my initial outburst of rage to my other half about the situation I just described it as it's like a company turning around and sacking you because you took home an expensive stapler several years ago, it's just a random get out of free card they have stored thanks to their ToS.
    • user5994461 9y ago
      Abusive ToS won't stand up in court.
      • deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      • Zpalmtree 9y ago
        Not many people are big enough to sue PayPal, and if they are, they probably aren't using it.
        • srssays 9y ago
          Small claims court?
          • pacaro 9y ago
            Srsly. This is the UK so it's well within the limits of small claims. IANAL but the U.K. also has less tolerance of "fine print". If PayPal closed his account because it was created before he was 18, did they do so because they believe that he didn't have capacity when he signed up? If that is the case then it makes you wonder if any of the TOS apply
• jaimex2 9y ago
  If you are in Australia and PayPal every pull anything remotely similar, contact the financial ombudsman. They are extremely good at putting Paypal back in line. In some cases they fine financial institutions who don't resolve quickly enough.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    I'm in the UK but my friend Mat is in Aus and does run in to problems with them now and then, I'll pass the information on.
  • chadcmulligan 9y ago
    ombudsmans are the best invention, I'm surprised they haven't caught on elsewhere. They don't even cost money - the charges levied cover the costs I believe.
• a012 9y ago
  I'm 30s and living in SEA, opening PayPal with CitiBank card and provided proofs (scan of ID and bank statements) then they immediately closed my account. They just stated that my info wasn't met their standards. So fine, I don't use PayPal otherwise.
• znpy 9y ago
  I registered when I was 15. I guess I should make sure to use paypal as little as possible from now on.
• Eun 9y ago
  Had the same issue last month after reciving a $3000 bug bounty. PP limited my account I uploaded a copy of my id, bing -> banned. However: After calling them, they told me to create a new account and verify it with the CC and bankaccount (that were in old acc). And as soon everything was verified they trasfered the money to the new account. So apparently it seems not to be that difficult to get your money.
  • moritzplassnig 9y ago
    Which number did you call? I'm trying to get $1,500 out of PayPal and I haven't found a way to talk to somebody at PayPal who was able/willing to help me with that (account got blocked, I uploaded all the paperwork, got told that they will hold the money for 180 days but that was more than 1 year ago).
    • bfred_it 9y ago
      I'd have filed a police report for that much money. This is ridiculous.
  • allendoerfer 9y ago
    Had the same experience, except when I opened the new account, they would not verify my bank account, because it was still used on the old one. That was the point where I have had enough and stopped using them.
  • orhanhenrik 9y ago
    Exactly the same happened to me about 1-2 years ago. It was quite stressful, but at least I got the money in the end.
• milankragujevic 9y ago
  I hate PayPal, but thankfully I created my account in my mom's name when I was 12 so I think I'm safe, will create another one in a year.
• a3n 9y ago
  > I’m not really sure what half a year of holding on to my money will help PayPal achieve? If they have a pile of similar money (likely, by the stories we hear), then they earn interest, and may (IANAA) be able to point to that cash as an "asset" in situations where they need to show assets.
  • dsacco 9y ago
    No, that's illegal. A financial institution cannot represent customers' assets as its own. Those are not company assets, they're liabilities (because they're not owned, they're owed).
• nikon 9y ago
  Just closed my account. Have you tried Transferwise instead? You'd save a fortune on fees.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    Good! I haven't heard of it but I'll take a look, I think we're likely to use Western Union for our global transfers now, but will shop around first.
  • pyvpx 9y ago
    you have to transfer to another currency. you cannot do transfers within the same currency (USD to USD or EUR to EUR) with TransferWise. they are excellent for foreign exchange, however.
• Spare_account 9y ago
  I was able to determine the year I opened my account in the Account Settings page: http://imgur.com/y6Rpc4G http://imgur.com/y6Rpc4G
  • forbiddenlake 9y ago
    An exact date would be better, for those who turned 18 in the year displayed.
    • Spare_account 9y ago
      I was able to find out the month by phoning PayPal and asking. However this may not be an option for those who do not want to raise their head above the parapet.
    • developer2 9y ago
      To be explicit for anyone who gets confused with date-based math: your "joined in" year minus the year of your birth needs to be at least 19 to be safe. If it shows 18, you may have been 17 instead of 18 when you joined.
    • prostanac 9y ago
      the best way to find our the exact date is to find the sign up email, if you still have access to it.
      • Spare_account 9y ago
        Inspired by your suggestion, I located my original PayPal account activation email from May 2006: http://imgur.com/ztYGLxP http://imgur.com/ztYGLxP
• wishinghand 9y ago
  Is there a list of good PayPal alternatives besides Stripe? Bonus points for companies that work outside of the USA.
  • pyvpx 9y ago
    I just use TransferWise, but that doesn't help for transfers of the same currency :\
  • mdekkers 9y ago
    Curious: What's the issue with Stripe? Also, in Europe you can look into GoCardless.
    • luelistan 9y ago
      Also, in Europe you can just do a SEPA wire transfer. It's free with all reasonable banks, can be done from the online banking interface and takes only one business day.
      • deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      • nraynaud 9y ago
        I think it's free by regulation now.
        • mdekkers 9y ago
          No, unfortunately some banks (in Cyprus, for example) still charge. They also ignore the directive in terms of time to process transactions
    • wishinghand 9y ago
      No issue with Stripe, but it's good to know alternatives. Going from one near-monopoly to another is not good.
• Neliquat 9y ago
  PSA: Do not use PayPal for any reason, they are unethical and unreasonable. How many more times must this happen to people?
• 5ilv3r 9y ago
  I too started a paypal account when I was underage with mother's permission, help, and her checking account attached so I could sell thrift store finds on ebay. I've been with them over 10 years and never used another payment service. Uhg.
• iDemonix 9y ago
  Interestingly, this article just tanked from 6th to 38th according to hnrankings.info, maybe I've found a conspiracy for my next Medium article.
  • grzm 9y ago
    What you've likely observed is the "overheated discussion detector" algorithm kicking in: this submission has received a relatively large number of comments in a short period of time. If you have a concern or questions, I recommend contacting the mods via the Contact link in the footer.
    • striking 9y ago
      > "overheated discussion" That's the most polite synonym for "flamewar" I've ever heard. I'm going to use that.
      • grzm 9y ago
        It is nice, isn't it? I picked it up from 'dang: https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22overheated%20discussion%22%20author:dang&sort=byDate&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?query=%22overheated%20discussion%22%...
• kennydude 9y ago
  Look at opening a Monzo account, lets you have a monzo.me link to get paid in the UK. Shame we don't have anything like Square Cash :(
  • jbrooksuk 9y ago
    I have a Golden Ticket if you'd like it.
• gist 9y ago
  Snarkly I will mention that this is the same company that 'HN darling' Elon Musk was part of prior to his current life. Everything that everyone hates about paypal existed back then.
  • stupidhn 9y ago
    >Elon Musk was part of prior to his current life. I also find this interesting. Musk's startup history is often cited as evidence of his serial success, but it's hardly mentioned that the startup that earned his fortune is widely detested as a "necessary evil".
• aphextron 9y ago
  I've completely blocked PayPal out of my life. I've been screwed over by them so many ways over the past 15 years it's impossible to count. I refuse to do any business which requires their services.
  • sverige 9y ago
    Same here. Never. Again. It only took once, but that was enough. I'm actually surprised that people are just discovering how much PayPal sucks as a service this late in the game. They have had verifiable horror stories of seizing people's money and property for well over a decade. I've skipped purchasing things that I really wanted when the only option for payment was PayPal. I always send a nice message to the seller to let them know exactly why I decided not to purchase their product / service. Surprisingly few respond, so I guess they're doing great with their current setup.
• prklmn 9y ago
  Is there a bitcoin solution that looks like this without having either party directly deal with bitcoin?: currency in bank account of person 1 --> bitcoin --> currency in bank account of person 2 or credit card of person 1 --> bitcoin --> currency in bank account of person 2
  • Dylan16807 9y ago
    That sounds like a scenario that only gets the downsides of bitcoin and no benefits.
    • prklmn 9y ago
      Why is that? The risks of holding bitcoin would be avoided.
      • Dylan16807 9y ago
        But all the security risks and complications are still borne by someone, presumably the company doing the transaction. Both users need to trust that company, so they don't gain anything by the use of bitcoin. They in fact lose money because of the extra transaction fee, and possibly more in conversion fees/inefficiencies. Oh and there's privacy loss too from putting it on the blockchain. The only 'benefit' is that there's a sticker saying "now with bitcoin!". No party involved gains anything.
  • E6300 9y ago
    So what is "-->"? It would have to be a company of some kind. You would actually be doing person1 --> company --> bitcoin --> company --> person2 At that point, you may as well cut out the middle man: person1 --> company --> person2
    • prklmn 9y ago
      Right. The company would take the place of paypal and users would be aware that their transactions are being executed via an instantaneous bitcoin purchase and sale.
• delecti 9y ago
  I only ever use Paypal as a wrapper around credit card transactions for merchants I trust enough to purchase from, but not necessarily enough to handle my credit card information directly. I can't say I've ever had a problem using them that way.
  • scarface74 9y ago
    I've never thought about using PayPal like this. It makes perfect sense though. I never really worried about credit card fraud. It's so easy to dispute a charge.
  • wfunction 9y ago
    I'd worry about debit card fraud, not credit card fraud. I think the credit industry's managed to trick people into treating credit card numbers like very sensitive information whereas in reality they're not for consumers; they only are for the companies.
    • lilbobbytables 9y ago
      I do the same as the poster above, however, not for fraud: for ease of cancelling recurring services. I know I can always log into Paypal and just cancel the recurring charge. I suppose I also use it because it can be easier than finding my wallet for payment, too. But I do avoid receiving payments from PP.
    • ReidZB 9y ago
      Having a CC number canceled and a new one issued can be a hassle. That's why I still want my CC info to be kept secret and safe. I'm not really worried about CC fraud otherwise.
  • SL61 9y ago
    I use it this way for debit card transactions. I never receive money through PayPal, I don't keep money in my "wallet" there, and my bank account is not linked. Although I made my account when I was 15 or 16, I should be alright. The worst that could happen is I might be unable to pay for a few things. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure an account is even necessary for my use-case. Maybe I can get away with just deleting it.
• colanderman 9y ago
  So in this case where a friend's deposit is being held for ransom, could that friend simply chargeback or file a fraud claim against PayPal? After all, PayPal has stolen their money which was intended for another person (the author in this case).
  • deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
• hanklazard 9y ago
  As someone who uses PayPal on a multiple times per week basis and who has never had any issues, this type of story (as well as the general sentiments of many of the comments) makes me worry that my time will come soon enough. Can anyone recommend a service like PayPal that would be good for online transactions between individuals, but that also allows for credit card use? Fees are to be expected, it's just that I have t been able to find another service that will allow CC. I'm really hopeful that Google wallet will begin to allow CC use sometime soon.
  • JBReefer 9y ago
    Venmo ... Oh that's PayPal too. I'm not a fan, but maybe Bitcoin? What about mailed checks, as a backup?
    • kennywinker 9y ago
      In Canada we have Interact e-transfers. For about $1 you can send money between any two banks via email or sms. The fee is frustrating, especially when you want to pay someone back for lunch or something small, but it is very convenient and basically everybody knows how to use it at this point.
      • jessriedel 9y ago
        Btw, EQ Bank and ATB Financial offer a few (5-10) Interac transactions for free per month. http://www.playpay.ca/blog/comments.cfm?id=3&blogid=7 http://www.playpay.ca/blog/comments.cfm?id=3&blogid=7
      • CosmicShadow 9y ago
        Yeah these are great, they've pretty much made cheques obsolete. Need to pay the cleaning lady or lawn guy? Just email money transfer, no one wants to go to the bank or take a photo of a cheque. I even get paid for many contracts via this method, but it can be annoying that some banks have lower daily limit, and even more surprisingly my personal daily limit is like twice as high as a business bank account's limit (for certain banks), but it's like $1.50 to send the money and people just do it over the course of 2 days if it's over the limit. Wire transfers are too crazy expensive in Canada as well. Also easiest way to send money to yourself if your business account is at a different bank and you don't have cheques or want to get robbed carrying cash!
• jtth 9y ago
  When did they add the 18 thing? Mine's fine and I've had it open since 2000, when they barely had a website, let alone a good EULA.
• oliwarner 9y ago
  You regularly transfer money with this guy but you're both happy eating transfer fees every time?! Seriously? Wtaf? BACS and Faster Payments (through your banks) are free. You're literally pelting the Devil with your money for getting in the way.
  • throwaway2048 9y ago
    almost no American banks support either, there are extremely limited bank to bank transfer options in the USA. You can do a wire transfer but you are looking at $50+ in fees
    • oliwarner 9y ago
      Sure... But the there are a myriad of forex brokers that offer international transfers, many within reputable, regulated financial industries.
    • beojan 9y ago
      The author is British, so I don't see how this is relevant.
• Animats 9y ago
  Don't deal with any payment system you can't sue in small claims court.
  • GavinMcG 9y ago
    Speaking of which, why can't this be resolved that way?
    • Animats 9y ago
      PayPal's customer contract forces arbitration. Although you can opt out within 30 days after sign-up. That has to be done by paper mail, to make it maximally inconvenient. [1] https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full
      • EpicBlackCrayon 9y ago
        Wow, that's some shady shit.
• thriftwy 9y ago
  It was long obvious to me that PayPal is one of those "good while it lasts" entrprises. As in, you should factor in from the day one that they might stop working with you at any random moment. They never contributed towards any other image. (I wonder if you can sue them in locales where they're legally a bank)
  • lucaspiller 9y ago
    Banks really aren't that much better. My employer is based in the US, and it took around 3 weeks for their bank to setup the wire transfer to pay me here in Europe. As such they sent my first pay cheque via Paypal. As it was a large amount my account was limited, but after uploading the documents and a quick phone call (their phone support are a lot better than their email and chat support), my funds were unfrozen.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  In the image of the email you got from them it looks like they are telling you to create a new account. You can't do that and have them xfer over the money to the new account?
• AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
  > will now just have to move to my credit cards directly One of the reasons I like paypal is that it provides a great amount of control over who I pay and when and how much. I can login and reasonably easy see all of my MRC subscriptions, and cancel them as appropriate. Technically possible with credit cards directly, but not as nice. Best of both worlds right now is privacy.com for me, they generate credit card #s on the fly and provide that same level of vision and control into where the money is going with exactly 100% less bullshit and 100% less scumbag tactics. If you're moving payments away from paypal (and you should) I would suggest considering moving them to privacy.com instead of directly.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    I've not heard of privacy.com, but I'll definitely take a look. This post has been useful for a lot of people, and it's been great to find a load of new useful services.
  • napsterbr 9y ago
    Privacy.com does not load. After a quick search, I think you meant abine.com? Thanks for sharing, anyway. I'll definitely give a try on their service. Hope it works for non-US cards too, but I find it unlikely. But $3 per month for virtual cards seems too good to be true. I'll take a closer read on the tos once I get to a desktop (unrelated, but am I the only one who can't stand to do a thing on mobile devices?)
    • TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      Off topic, but just three days ago I finally ditched my smartphone and bought a $39 feature phone. I feel liberated. I still keep a cheap Android phone at home to use some 2FA apps, but it doesn't go with me when I go out.
    • AdamJacobMuller 9y ago
      Nope, definitely meant https://privacy.com/ https://privacy.com/, not sure why it doesn't load for you. Privacy is free, I assumed they were getting a small % back from their card issuer to cover costs.
• Bud 9y ago
  All this, plus, Peter Thiel founded it. So you know, a priori, that it sucks.
  • misiti3780 9y ago
    so did Musk ....
• joshuaheard 9y ago
  I can't think of a legal reason for this policy. Normally, one must be 18 years old to enter into a contract, so the policy of preventing users under 18 from using the service is rational. However, if a user under 18 turns 18 years old during the contract, the contract is "ratified" and becomes valid and enforceable. It's as if they were 18 years old all along. So, there is no legal reason for Paypal to terminate accounts for people who enter into the contract under 18 yet turn 18 during the contract period.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    Interesting! If I wanted the account back I'd be tempted to fight back, but there's nothing to gain.
    • phr4ts 9y ago
      Except your money. You could probably get it now instead of 6 months time.
      • iDemonix 9y ago
        Apologies, I've commented a few times on this thread, I've managed to get most of the money, minus fees, back. Whilst there's no option in the modern UI, if you set your account back to use the classic UI, the refund button appears in the transaction details page, I refunded my friend and we're moving away from PP.
        • welly 9y ago
          Why did you use Paypal rather than a bank transfer in the first place? Is your friend Mat from overseas? If so, can I recommend Transferwise for overseas payments.
          • sundvor 9y ago
            PayPal is fantastic for transfers - when it works / as long as you're not hit by their "arbitrary bus".
• NietTim 9y ago
  Fuck.
  • iDemonix 9y ago
    My initial response.
• pizza 9y ago
  PayPal told me I was 'violating sanctions against Iran' - an accusation I think I will never understand because I mostly used PayPal to buy stuff from HumbleBundle at the time.. - and upon showing them id they froze my account because I was < 18. It's been years since, and my account is still frozen, although I've attempted to get it back a couple of times. Don't use paypal.
• StreamBright 9y ago
  Paypal just cancelled my PP CC because I was late with payment twice. They autocancel it. I have looked into why I was late and realized that PP failed to process my payment. I asked them how come a failure on their end causes this but tey never replied.
• qb45 9y ago
  If you opened your PayPal account at all, close it now and open another for the next payment. Rumor has it that PP cares much more about not pissing off new customers than the old ones. This works pretty well for me ever since my first account had been locked for bullshit reasons when I needed it most, of course with the money locked inside. Thankfully it was almost nothing, but thank you PP for reminding me to never keep anything of value in there. Granted, I only use PP when I absolutely must, which is no more than maybe once a year, so setting and tearing down these accounts is no big deal. I traditionally select "poor customer service" and "worry about security" as the reason I quit :)
• theWheez 9y ago
  Ha! Apparently I signed up for paypal 3 days before my 18th birthday. What are the odds.
• njharman 9y ago
  In some/many? jurisdictions contracts are not enforceable against people under age of 18.
• phkahler 9y ago
  I bet his practice of "share money with friends and family" looks shady. I mean who sends a friend 300 bucks with a 19 dollar fee. If you do a lot of that it probably looks like drug dealing or something. Last time I bummed a few hundred from family or friends: never.
  • a-saleh 9y ago
    I do. I.e. my wife's sister helped my then-girlfriend-now-wife to pay for part of her living expenses when she studied. Now we, as a way of paying it forward help out her younger brother at college in similar fashion. And because sometimes I had to send him money across country border, it would look quite similar to "300 bucks with 19 dollar fee".
• deadfece 9y ago
  When I joined, the ToS explicitly allowed users between 16 and 18. http://www.screw-paypal.com/tos_exposed_section/tos_june_2000.html http://www.screw-paypal.com/tos_exposed_section/tos_june_200... It looks like their ToS changed in February 2003 to enforce an 18-only model.
• darkhorn 9y ago
  You are a programmer in PayPal. The manager tells you to program "close accounts that are created when under 18". And the programmer cannot complys. When I say to my manager that this thing won't work etc he imlies that I'm smartsass jerk. Thus I no longer argue with him. I don't suggest anything to him anymore. I do exactly what he says. Probably this is the same case with PayPal too.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• kbos87 9y ago
  If ever there was a single shining example of how not to treat your customers, PayPal is it. Every year or two there is another story of a different arcane rule they have in place that is enforced with zero human consideration, oftentimes to deprive people access to their funds. They don't learn from their mistakes, nor acknowledge them in the first place. I can't think of another company that has drummed up such bad will in me (probably not even United.)
  • nikanj 9y ago
    Learn from their mistakes? I think the biggest lesson has been that you can scam a small percentage of users out of their money, without any real impact. There's been so many stories about paypal stealing people's money, but their core business is still going strong.
    • mod 9y ago
      The hilarious part of it all is that we're supposed to put them up as a payment option because users "trust them." Easily the service I hold the most disdain for on the 'net.
      • coldtea 9y ago
        >The hilarious part of it all is that we're supposed to put them up as a payment option because users "trust them." And users, indeed trust them. It's merchants that have the most reason to complain.
    • MichaelMoser123 9y ago
      I think it's part of the plan, while your account is suspended they could possibly use the money and lend it at an interest...
  • pbreit 9y ago
    Curious how detractors would explain PayPal's beyond outrageous success?
• kmfrk 9y ago
  I was asked to "confirm" my credit card a while back, but I don't have the supposed charge on my credit statement. So I shot them a support ticket to sort things out. Like over a month ago. I don't see how it's possible to manage your company so incompetently.
• exabrial 9y ago
  I prefer Google wallet for P2P payments... If zcash ever takes off that's be my preferred currency of choice
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• robin_reala 9y ago
  While it’s good that the author got their money back at least, if it was invalid for the author to have an account for 10 years it was also presumably invalid for PayPal to take any transaction fees during that period. Might be an interesting avenue for small claims.
  • PhantomGremlin 9y ago
    While it’s good that the author got their money back at least Did you miss the following? It was toward the bottom, but it was in BOLD: My only hope is that within 6 months, I will get a mystery email from PayPal letting me know that they might be willing to let me have my money. Or is the submitter also the author? In which case, yes, he does post elsewhere here that he reversed the payment into his account. (Less fees, of course!) If so, it's unfortunate he didn't update the article itself with this new information.
• linkmotif 9y ago
  PayPal has good rates on micropayments ($0.05 + 5%). But they terrify me. Anyone know of any competitive processors?
• jrrrr 9y ago
  Thanks! Closed.
• DSingularity 9y ago
  Why does anybody use paypal anymore? Go buy litecoin or ethereum. You can then send anybody anywhere money in an instant. If you afraid of volatility not going your way, buy bitcoin -- its more stable. Sure, cryptocurrency is not stable in value yet... but its getting better -- fast.
  • EduardoBautista 9y ago
    Bitcoin is stable? Compared to what? Venezuelan bolívares and Zimbabwean dollars?
  • chrischen 9y ago
    The reality is as PayPal is one of the oldest payment companies, their vast feature coverage covers so much more use cases. It probably has the most extensive international support out of any payment processor, it can be used for programmatic payouts and handles 1099 forms or other tax forms by default. It also means they have a lot of legacy APIs, complicated overlapping features. However one thing they should be fixing, but they aren't, is their terrible customer service. Their product should work for all their customers, and if it doesn't, they should be bearing the cost of making it work with decent customer service.
• digitalzombie 9y ago
  Or... Don't use Paypal. They stopped "doing business" with me out of the blue. I call them up and asked why and they said I need a subpoena to get the reason. I call them back saying I have a retainer so what do I do to get the reason with my retainer on hand? Seeing I was serious, the operator told me the reason as if he's letting me on a secret. The reason being I'm associated to somebody that owe them money. Yeah seriously. Their reason for not doing business with me was that I know somebody that owe them money but they won't tell me who. I asked if they can remove all my info. The dude told me it's secured because paypal use SSL. I wanted to to tell him that SSL is for connection encryption not data encryption but at this point I'm done with this bullshit ordeal. 2 months later paypal got hacked. I only use paypal to buy chinese clothing over ebay since I'm a small guy and it's hard to get clothing in USA with my size.
• mvrekic 9y ago
  Ah PayPal, all the power of a bank, none of responsibility.
• peterburkimsher 9y ago
  I signed up for PayPal (and eBay) on my 18th birthday, before I even got dressed and went downstairs to eat breakfast. I'm still worried that they might want to block me though, because I have more than one account. PayPal accounts must be linked to a bank account in the same country. So I now have different PayPal accounts in the UK, US, New Zealand, Korea, and Taiwan.
  • linkmotif 9y ago
    Why were you so enthusiastic to sign up for PayPal and eBay?
    • peterburkimsher 9y ago
      My parents had always been helping me buy things online. I lived in the middle of nowhere, so online shopping was my only way to buy things I wanted. The freedom to do this by myself without asking them every time was a huge step for me, coming of age. If you're American, I guess it's like driving a car for you. (I still can't drive).
      • linkmotif 9y ago
        Ah, got ya. Cool! Sounds like a huge day :). Googled your name and found you GitHub page. Seems like you've travelled the world a lot since then. Wow!
• tanto 9y ago
  Seriously vote with your money and just close it. I just did. More and more big companies think they can treat customers however they like. Paypal just seems to be a frontrunner. I just voted and closed Paypal. At least in Germany we got many other options.
• JoshGlazebrook 9y ago
  I've had similar bad experiences with venmo. Apparently I had created an account a couple years ago that I forgot about so I created a new one to receive a payment from a friend. A day after I received the money and had it set to transfer to my bank account they closed both of my accounts citing some rule in their terms of service saying one account per lifetime. And now I can't ever have another venmo account. That $500 also never got to me and never got returned to the sender. Just overall a scam of a company.
  • coffeevradar 9y ago
    Since Venmo is a subsidiary of PayPal, it's not surprising that the two have similarly anti-consumer policies.
• chmike 9y ago
  How come there is no competitor and alternate solution to PayPal ?
• michaelmrose 9y ago
  Can we shorten this to if you have a paypal account close it? Who wants to send money to a company that may or may not actually let you access your own money?
• thiagocsf 9y ago
  At this point I cannot hold any sympathy for people in tech getting screwed over by PayPal. We have all read the horror stories and, if you're still using them, you've got no one else to blame but yourself. At which point you will write your own horror story with the faint hope that it goes viral and forces PayPal to make things right. This is specially true for someone who, like OP, immediately liquidises the asset. Pick a digital currency, any currency.
• cannonpr 9y ago
  Hopefully between virtual credit card providers, invoicing providers for b2c like klarna, cryptochains, challenger banks like monzo... one of them will land PayPal in hot water, it's about damn time, they are one of the most toxic companies online.
• mamon 9y ago
  Forgive me if I sound dumb, but why bother creating PayPal account in the first place? If you are mostly buyer, then online payment is already easy (few clicks and 1 SMS password away). If you are seller, setting up your website to support credit card payments takes maybe two hours. I really don't see the use case for PayPal, especially given the constant complaints.
• ultim8k 9y ago
  Yeah. Paypal are plain street robbers. Not only they charge like you a church, but they have awful support considered that you trust them with your money. Unfortunately as a freelancer I had to use them, but I moved asap to a bank solution. Today that so many fintech startups are there, there is no reason to use them.
• Friedduck 9y ago
  Every story I've ever read about PayPal is a cautionary tale not to ever use or rely upon PayPal. Of course like others I use it for eBay but never, ever, for anything important.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• Knight_Rider 9y ago
  You can simply refund the money and tell your friend to send somewhere else , well that's what I did
• mk-61 9y ago
  I would really like to see amount of customers who have no problems with PP against customers who had. That would be the best, objective and simple analysis.