15 ms·

What I Learned About Life by Becoming a Landlord

244 points by oli5679 10y ago

triplesec 10y ago
There's a lesson in this piece in community, and how the rich and fortunate should treat those they deal with, just perhaps as in the movie It's a Wonderful Life: 'My dad gave himself over to that place. He kept a shoe-repair place in business for nearly thirty years by breaking policy, by being patient with the billing, by cajoling, by any means necessary, because he respected the man who ran it, a guy I knew only as Clarence. He fought to keep the supermarket open for the urban customer base who had nowhere else to go for groceries without getting on a bus. I believe he provided small loans to start-up businesses. I know he waited out their rent checks. He kept things running as landlord, even at some cost. He did it for the betterment of the city. In his residential spaces, he was loathe to raise the rent even after many years. Especially after many years. He dropped off cases of beer and huge boxes of Italian cookies to make his tenants feel appreciated. He gave rent abatements when people got cancer. He gave graduation presents, anniversary presents, sent handwritten notes and newspaper clippings to his tenants and their families. While I'm sure some people hated the landlord in him, I believe my dad treated his tenants with honor as long as they did the same for the space he provided (and didn't run up the house account at Wilson Hardware). I know this because people stopped me—on the floor of the mall, in the street, at the reception after my father's death—to testify to it. I came to see that my father was known by many, if not all, as a kind steward of place. This is as much as any landlord can hope to be.'
- c0achmcguirk 10y ago
  Great section of the article. It reminds me how much my kids watch and learn from me. The author's father shaped so much of how he sees the world and aspires to be. This was a good reminder that your kids notice every kindness you pay to others.
Normal_gaussian 10y ago
> Clarity, I found, is a better motivator than the threat of small claims court. Clarity prevents problems before they start
FroshKiller 10y ago
This was a great read. Thanks for sharing.
- mistersquid 10y ago
  The writing on this _Popular Mechanics_ article/memoir is superb, filled with rich detail and expository flourish. For example, this passage succinctly and adroitly presents the landlord's peculiar fate. > For a landlord, all stories end on a broken aquarium. Or > maggots in the unplugged refrigerator. That double-pane > window that "fell out" during some Halloween party. The > climax of a story belongs to the tenant. The denouement is > the landlord's burden alone. And it generally involves a mop. A pleasure to read such good writing.
chrisseaton 10y ago
> "Do you like making me into the landlord?" Is 'landlord' a dirty word with connotations in the US? Why's it such a big deal for him to say he's the landlord? Obviously he's the landlord.
- delinka 10y ago
  "dirty"? I don't think so. To me it connotes a certain distance at which the relationship is maintained. Similar to having lunch with a co-worker (who happens to be the CEO) versus having lunch with the CEO. When you use business titles, it's a business relationship. When you don't, it's easier to be friendly acquaintances or even outright friends.
- pmorici 10y ago
  I think it means that the father preferred to view the relationship as one of equals or partners. When the tenant starts playing games with the rent that forces the father's hand and makes the relationship adversarial in nature. The sentiment reminds me of people who view their boss as the enemy always out to screw them vs an equal they work with to accomplish company goals. It depends a great deal on the general demeanor of the boss for sure but basic professionalism on the part of the employee goes a long way to keeping the boss from having to be the bad guy.
  - maxerickson 10y ago
    I would phrase it differently. The statement was a reminder that the business part of the relationship was business. They way you've put it congratulates the landlord for being a nice guy when it is convenient for him.
    - falcolas 10y ago
      Not every business interaction has to be executed as a business interaction. It might be safer, it might make you more money, but it's ultimately just two people interacting. The landlord didn't sound like they wanted to bring in the full power of their role into play in the relationship, would have preferred it keep it to more of a gentleman's agreement - an arrangement which is absolutely not in the landlord's favor. That they chose to not take up that full mantel in most interactions is to the renter's benefit.
api 10y ago
I've never done it but I've heard stories. One particularly nasty one was from a landlord who entered a recently vacated property a few weeks after the tenants left. He found a dead dog who had obviously been left alive. There were scratches and bites and claw marks and filth everywhere where the dog had tried to get out and then to eat carpets, cabinets, etc. The place was generally trashed and infested with roaches that hadn't been there when it was rented. He found it so disturbing he started selling properties after that and exiting the business. (He also called the cops on that one. Not sure if anything happened as a result.) He said that was the worst but he had other pretty insane stories: domestic abuse, meth cooking, Fear and Loathing levels of trashing the place, etc. There's a lot of real nasty and/or disturbed people out there. Anything that gives you a lot of unfiltered contact with the general public shows you that. It's depressing and frightening.
- dbg31415 10y ago
  I just did a post on here about being a landlord... domestic abuse... it's a real mess. And it just eats your profitability -- not to sound callous. I had a tenant who hit his girlfriend. They were both on the lease. Anyway she filed charges against him (good for her!) but that meant I had to let her off the lease. Her dipshit boyfriend couldn't pay for the place on his own... so then I was left in a situation where I got paid like 1/2 rent one month, then had to give him 30 days for free to vacate... The girl called me in tears, "Can I please get my security deposit back I moved out already?" I was like, "No, sorry... I can't give that back until I do the exit walk through, and you're already behind at least half a month on rent..." and then, "I'm sorry but your shithead boyfriend didn't clean up the place after he left..." I felt for her, but not a lot I could do other than eat the loss she was causing me by having horrible taste in men. I feel like a jerk saying that... but I didn't feel like the burden should fall on me... She got all snarky with me, threatened to hire a lawyer... but nothing ever came of it... I ended up taking their entire security deposit, and still having to pay out of pocket for cleaning services. Domestic violence creates a no-win situation. I'm out money, and it's not like my mortgage and taxes stopped because she had drama in her life... I really just wanted to tell her, "Be more careful, and have higher standards next time around..." but of course that would have been rude and uncalled for. The whole thing just sucked. I still feel guilty about it... and there's no reason I should, she signed the lease agreement.
mcguire 10y ago
"And you never know how someone lives until you lie beneath their kitchen sink with your head on a bag of Meow Mix." Why is there a bag of Meow Mix when the policy is 'no pets'?
- ec109685 10y ago
  I think he was being ironic to show tenants break rules.
  - nitrogen 10y ago
    Also sometimes people in dire situations resort to eating pet food because it's sometimes cheaper.
- golergka 10y ago
  Because who cares about policy?
- nradov 10y ago
  Some tenants find a way around "no pets" policies by getting their pets classified as service animals under the ADA for "emotional support" or similar. While some people have a legitimate medical need the system is widely abused.
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    > by getting their pets classified as service animals No cat has ever provided a service
    - kuschku 10y ago
      Cats have been approved as service animals for autistic children before.
      - Chris2048 10y ago
        Do you have a link for that? DoJ appears to include only dogs (and maybe miniature horses): https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm Or do you mean emotional support/comfort/therapy animals? https://www.animallaw.info/article/faqs-emotional-support-animals https://www.animallaw.info/article/faqs-emotional-support-an... https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet
JamesBarney 10y ago
One of my tenants was disgusting. He had a loogey/booger wall. He also had a dog we didn't know about, and this was a unit that was right behind our house. Which mean he didn't take the dog out to shit, he just let it shit on the carpet. And all the dog shit, had toe prints in them... uck Other than that it's been pretty good. A lot of people just work hard, and want a roof over their head.
jonawesomegreen 10y ago
As someone who had pondered becoming a part time landlord as an investment, this is a really interesting read.
- 0x445442 10y ago
  My parents were landlords when I was growing up and I thought about getting into it myself. When I was looking into it I think 8% was the ballpark ROI most landlords were shooting for. Remembering back to what my parents went through my thoughts were Meh, I can find other ways to put my money and myself to work.
- Norandomguy 10y ago
  Some random advice to you or anyone else: it's not as easy as you think. The housing boom over the past 20 years makes everyone belive that real estate is the path to easy wealth. But being a landlord takes work and offers a market return. There is no magic. Those people who tell you "I just collect the rent" haven't been doing it long enough.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    Or they turn over a good portion of that rent to a third party to do the actual maintenance and management of the properties (a big business in and of itself).
    - bbcbasic 10y ago
      3% and tax deductible? It's probably worth it.
      - cmclaughlin 10y ago
        10% is standard
        mcguire 10y ago
        For property management? That's what I'm paying; they handle everything, including hiring subcontractors for maintenance and repairs. Works out well, if they're good about picking renters.
pdog 10y ago
If none of this sounds appealing to you, consider investing in a real estate investment trust (REIT). These are companies that purchase office buildings, hotels, and other properties and distribute their rental income as dividends. For example, Vanguard has a diversified REIT ETF with a minuscule expense ratio and a healthy 4% yield: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundIntExt=INT&FundId=0986 https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundIntExt=I...
- adventurer 10y ago
  Real estate looks as if it is way over-priced at this point. If you don't want the tax benefits of owning a rental, why not index fund your money, then you would be almost double the 4% long-term, either way.
  - eldavido 10y ago
    Which market? I agree a lot of hot metros are looking expensive (SF, Seattle). Things are cheaper in places farther from growth and money, e.g. rural Indiana. I'm not sure whether they're better deals on balance, but quite different.
    - sitkack 10y ago
      Just what those people living in those places need. More investors making money off their condition. The rent is already too damn high.
      - mcguire 10y ago
        Watch how high it gets when investors pull out of the market.
      - nradov 10y ago
        REIT investors aren't the cause of high rents. Actually the opposite. Every dollar they put in lowers the cost of capital for property developers and encourages the construction of new housing units.
ikeboy 10y ago
>Then sit with the tenant at a bar or coffee shop and read through the whole of it before the signing. Hm.
ryanmarsh 10y ago
Being a landlord, hiring people, working directly with the general public (retail, food service) are eye opening experiences. I watched my father be the kind of land lord anyone would hope to have just to watch some people destroy his property and treat him with hostility. Now I know why your landlord treats you like he expects the worst from you. I hired people for work they cared about (non profit), treated them well, the earned prestige and leadership experience they couldn't have had in their previous jobs just to watch them turn on me and spread lies and toxicity and try to destroy the organization because I praised someone else's work too. Now I know why companies treat people like they expect the worst from them. I worked at a Taco Bell and Starbucks. People yelled at us and treated us like scum for the offense of working for minimum wage. Apparently people who make more than minimum wage automatically have more intrinsic human value? I'll never know. But I know I'll excuse a lot with retail and food workers because my life is roughly 30x times better than theirs.
- draw_down 10y ago
  > Apparently people who make more than minimum wage automatically have more intrinsic human value? I'll never know. Oh, in America at least that is certainly the case. We hate and ridicule the poor.
- manyxcxi 10y ago
  I don't know about people actually believing they have more intrinsic value because they make more than minimum wage, I just think the problems comes from a few areas: - They were/are getting treated like shit and are transferring the energy on - People are increasingly 'busy' leading to higher levels of stress and anxiety that just have them snapping easier - There's a lot more of us than there used to be, so even if the percentages stayed constant, there's a lot more f%cking twats running around out there Especially with younger people I professionally interact with (I'm 34), but also with age peers, I've noticed that a shockingly large percentage have never had that job experience of working at a place that was crappy, for minimal pay, bad hours, tough work, etc. Generally they didn't work at all until maybe a couple of internships in college, or some other form of light entry into the workforce. I think it really does something to create a lack of empathy for those people not in a situation exactly like ours. My personal belief is it doesn't matter what our two situations are, being an asshole is being an asshole. If you're going to be a jerk to someone who's working a random lunch counter, you're probably just generally a jerk the majority of the time. Wealth, status, fame, are no excuses for a lack of human decency.
dbg31415 10y ago
I have a rental property... I used to live there, then I bought a house closer to work and rented out the original house with plans of moving back there some day. Now... I'll never move back. It's in a nice neighborhood, rent requires the people who live there to probably make $150-200k a year... you'd think it'd be OK... But nope. Anyway every part of the article is true. The rest of this is just be venting for therapeutic reasons. Ha. First... you really don't make that much money off the property. Once you pay for maintenance upkeep, and taxes, and taxes on the income you get as rent... you just aren't making much... if anything from the renters. I'm probably losing money on my renters... but I make it back (in theory) in property value gains. Second... holy hell, some people just should never leave apartments. And all the stereotypes are true. You have to assume they are all out to fuck you over... and incompetent... if you don't, you'll be in for a lot of disappointment. I rented to an Indian family for 12 months, and after I had to have the place scrubbed top to bottom, ducts all cleaned... and it still smelled like curry. New tenant was furious at me for "not cleaning"... I have no idea how to get the curry smell out. I spent over $2k in professional cleaning services... over 2x what it cost to de-cat-pee the place... now I never want to rent to another Indian family. We literally hand-washed the walls, twice... Then eventually repainted everything inside (another $4k)... the house has no carpets or curtains... no clue how the smell stayed. And I had to give a discount to the new tenant for 4 months because of the smell. There is a fan over the stove... but it clearly never got used when they were cooking. I rented to a Chinese family for 6 months... and I think they moved like 10 people into a 3 bedroom house. I only met the first couple... but every time I went there were 2 cars in the garage, 2 in the driveway, and at least 4 on the street. And every time I would knock on the door a different person answered in broken English. Families with kids... will trash your property. And they will bitch and bitch that things were broken before they moved in, their precious snowflakes didn't burn parts of the walls, or drill holes, or kick the drywall under their desk so much it cracked all up the wall... Pets are disgusting. Cats stink. Dogs are destructive. I had to re-do the wood floors after a tenant's dog clawed them all to shit... had to sue the tenant for damages. "It's normal wear and tear!" they insisted... but they had a 120 pound dog whose nails they never bothered to trim. I got smart and just replaced everything with tile after that. For a rental... just pretend you're dealing with malicious jerks who are bent on destroying anything nice you put in the house... and then plan accordingly. Tenants will lie and lie and lie again to get out of paying for damages. And worse than lie, they do shit that makes it hard to find the true damages... forget toothpaste in the walls to cover up nail holes... I had a tenant put duct tape over drywall and then use spackling paste and paint on top of that. It looked just good enough that if you were in a rush you may have signed off on his move out damages. I had another family try and prop a closet door up, one that took out the inner glass of a window so it wouldn't appear broken (still had the outer glass) -- but then it made it a harder job to replace the glass because they had bent the frame all to shit. Cost them more than if they would have just told me about the break in the first place... They aren't at all honest about what they fuck up, and they don't have a clue what it costs to fix something correctly. "Man, faucets only cost like $40 at Costco... why you charging me $500?!" Well... because the faucets you destroyed were nice faucets that cost around $350 each, and there's an installation fee... and I'm not even charging you for the other faucet that I have to replace so the two will still match in the master... I'm also covering the damage to the granite counter top where you hit it with a hammer or whatever when you were trying to tighten your vice grips on the faucet handle instead of calling me when you initially broke it a year ago..." Tenants always sneak in dogs, cats, extra roommates... My first lease agreement was 10 pages... the last one I used was about 45. It spells out everything that I know to include... plus penalties... "Don't sit on the damn roof, asphalt composite shingles are not meant to be walked on when it's 100 degrees outside... you're getting charged for replacing 1/3rd of the roof because you put lawn chairs up on the roof and literally were up there so often you wore a path in the shingles..." "Don't smoke in the house, but if you are going to smoke in the house... don't just cut the wires to the smoke alarms and just tuck them back up in the drywall." Despite hiding all the shit they do, and bitching about things they notice... most of them are incompetent at owning a house... won't report water on the windowsill leaking in right away until there's rot in the wood and the whole frame has to be replaced... won't report a wasp nest growing out of the rafters in the roof until it's a $1,200 job to remove it... will let their kids hang off of the ceiling fans and fuck those all up... Some people should never live in a house... put them in an all brick apartment building with cement floors and reinforced windows. There's a reason public schools are built the way they are. You lose so much faith in people when you rent property. If you don't assume they're all out to fuck you over... you'll get fucked over. It'll cost you a fortune in repairs, and so much hassle and stress because the dipshit who rented from you will fight you tooth and nail... and cry about every little cost... when in fact they aren't even paying 50% of what it really cost to get it repaired... let alone the time you lose because you can't rent it in the shitty condition they left it in.
k__ 10y ago
It's nothing special. Every time you interact with people you have to start from zero. Don't let idiots make you bitter forever.
eternalvision 10y ago
This article is from February. Some process possibly involving random inputs, led to OP posting this article today. Yet, I've observed a lifetime of such randomness as anything but random in my little perception of the universe.
pixelbill 10y ago
People, in general, are terrible. Landlords, in general, are the worst human beings alive.
- sgarman 10y ago
  Dang, I thought the article did a good job showing me why people think that but it's not so cut and dry.
- sctb 10y ago
  We've banned this account for posting mostly uncivil and/or unsubstantive comments. We're happen to unban accounts if you email hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you'll stop posting like this.
branchless 10y ago
The tenant works, dad landlord ring up for a cut. Poor landlords having to do some work!
Integrity 10y ago
I've never been a landlord but have known two over the course of their rental property careers. They went from being amicable to noticing and expecting the worst from people, essentially becoming jaded. And the transformation is similar in quality to many police officers, how they wear an expression on their face as if humanity has broken their heart. Watching this impacted me enough to decide that I'd never want to be a landlord. It's an odd position to be in in the first place. To be responsible, in a sense, for how others live.

244 points by oli5679 10y ago

There's a lesson in this piece in community, and how the rich and fortunate should treat those they deal with, just perhaps as in the movie It's a Wonderful Life: 'My dad gave himself over to that place. He kept a shoe-repair place in business for nearly thirty years by breaking policy, by being patient with the billing, by cajoling, by any means necessary, because he respected the man who ran it, a guy I knew only as Clarence. He fought to keep the supermarket open for the urban customer base who had nowhere else to go for groceries without getting on a bus. I believe he provided small loans to start-up businesses. I know he waited out their rent checks. He kept things running as landlord, even at some cost. He did it for the betterment of the city. In his residential spaces, he was loathe to raise the rent even after many years. Especially after many years. He dropped off cases of beer and huge boxes of Italian cookies to make his tenants feel appreciated. He gave rent abatements when people got cancer. He gave graduation presents, anniversary presents, sent handwritten notes and newspaper clippings to his tenants and their families. While I'm sure some people hated the landlord in him, I believe my dad treated his tenants with honor as long as they did the same for the space he provided (and didn't run up the house account at Wilson Hardware). I know this because people stopped me—on the floor of the mall, in the street, at the reception after my father's death—to testify to it. I came to see that my father was known by many, if not all, as a kind steward of place. This is as much as any landlord can hope to be.'

c0achmcguirk 10y ago
Great section of the article. It reminds me how much my kids watch and learn from me. The author's father shaped so much of how he sees the world and aspires to be. This was a good reminder that your kids notice every kindness you pay to others.

Normal_gaussian 10y ago

> Clarity, I found, is a better motivator than the threat of small claims court. Clarity prevents problems before they start

FroshKiller 10y ago

This was a great read. Thanks for sharing.

mistersquid 10y ago
The writing on this _Popular Mechanics_ article/memoir is superb, filled with rich detail and expository flourish. For example, this passage succinctly and adroitly presents the landlord's peculiar fate. > For a landlord, all stories end on a broken aquarium. Or > maggots in the unplugged refrigerator. That double-pane > window that "fell out" during some Halloween party. The > climax of a story belongs to the tenant. The denouement is > the landlord's burden alone. And it generally involves a mop. A pleasure to read such good writing.

chrisseaton 10y ago

> "Do you like making me into the landlord?" Is 'landlord' a dirty word with connotations in the US? Why's it such a big deal for him to say he's the landlord? Obviously he's the landlord.

delinka 10y ago
"dirty"? I don't think so. To me it connotes a certain distance at which the relationship is maintained. Similar to having lunch with a co-worker (who happens to be the CEO) versus having lunch with the CEO. When you use business titles, it's a business relationship. When you don't, it's easier to be friendly acquaintances or even outright friends.
pmorici 10y ago
I think it means that the father preferred to view the relationship as one of equals or partners. When the tenant starts playing games with the rent that forces the father's hand and makes the relationship adversarial in nature. The sentiment reminds me of people who view their boss as the enemy always out to screw them vs an equal they work with to accomplish company goals. It depends a great deal on the general demeanor of the boss for sure but basic professionalism on the part of the employee goes a long way to keeping the boss from having to be the bad guy.
- maxerickson 10y ago
  I would phrase it differently. The statement was a reminder that the business part of the relationship was business. They way you've put it congratulates the landlord for being a nice guy when it is convenient for him.
  - falcolas 10y ago
    Not every business interaction has to be executed as a business interaction. It might be safer, it might make you more money, but it's ultimately just two people interacting. The landlord didn't sound like they wanted to bring in the full power of their role into play in the relationship, would have preferred it keep it to more of a gentleman's agreement - an arrangement which is absolutely not in the landlord's favor. That they chose to not take up that full mantel in most interactions is to the renter's benefit.

api 10y ago

I've never done it but I've heard stories. One particularly nasty one was from a landlord who entered a recently vacated property a few weeks after the tenants left. He found a dead dog who had obviously been left alive. There were scratches and bites and claw marks and filth everywhere where the dog had tried to get out and then to eat carpets, cabinets, etc. The place was generally trashed and infested with roaches that hadn't been there when it was rented. He found it so disturbing he started selling properties after that and exiting the business. (He also called the cops on that one. Not sure if anything happened as a result.) He said that was the worst but he had other pretty insane stories: domestic abuse, meth cooking, Fear and Loathing levels of trashing the place, etc. There's a lot of real nasty and/or disturbed people out there. Anything that gives you a lot of unfiltered contact with the general public shows you that. It's depressing and frightening.

dbg31415 10y ago
I just did a post on here about being a landlord... domestic abuse... it's a real mess. And it just eats your profitability -- not to sound callous. I had a tenant who hit his girlfriend. They were both on the lease. Anyway she filed charges against him (good for her!) but that meant I had to let her off the lease. Her dipshit boyfriend couldn't pay for the place on his own... so then I was left in a situation where I got paid like 1/2 rent one month, then had to give him 30 days for free to vacate... The girl called me in tears, "Can I please get my security deposit back I moved out already?" I was like, "No, sorry... I can't give that back until I do the exit walk through, and you're already behind at least half a month on rent..." and then, "I'm sorry but your shithead boyfriend didn't clean up the place after he left..." I felt for her, but not a lot I could do other than eat the loss she was causing me by having horrible taste in men. I feel like a jerk saying that... but I didn't feel like the burden should fall on me... She got all snarky with me, threatened to hire a lawyer... but nothing ever came of it... I ended up taking their entire security deposit, and still having to pay out of pocket for cleaning services. Domestic violence creates a no-win situation. I'm out money, and it's not like my mortgage and taxes stopped because she had drama in her life... I really just wanted to tell her, "Be more careful, and have higher standards next time around..." but of course that would have been rude and uncalled for. The whole thing just sucked. I still feel guilty about it... and there's no reason I should, she signed the lease agreement.

mcguire 10y ago

"And you never know how someone lives until you lie beneath their kitchen sink with your head on a bag of Meow Mix." Why is there a bag of Meow Mix when the policy is 'no pets'?

ec109685 10y ago
I think he was being ironic to show tenants break rules.
- nitrogen 10y ago
  Also sometimes people in dire situations resort to eating pet food because it's sometimes cheaper.
golergka 10y ago
Because who cares about policy?
nradov 10y ago
Some tenants find a way around "no pets" policies by getting their pets classified as service animals under the ADA for "emotional support" or similar. While some people have a legitimate medical need the system is widely abused.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > by getting their pets classified as service animals No cat has ever provided a service
  - kuschku 10y ago
    Cats have been approved as service animals for autistic children before.
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      Do you have a link for that? DoJ appears to include only dogs (and maybe miniature horses): https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm Or do you mean emotional support/comfort/therapy animals? https://www.animallaw.info/article/faqs-emotional-support-animals https://www.animallaw.info/article/faqs-emotional-support-an... https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet

JamesBarney 10y ago

One of my tenants was disgusting. He had a loogey/booger wall. He also had a dog we didn't know about, and this was a unit that was right behind our house. Which mean he didn't take the dog out to shit, he just let it shit on the carpet. And all the dog shit, had toe prints in them... uck Other than that it's been pretty good. A lot of people just work hard, and want a roof over their head.

jonawesomegreen 10y ago

As someone who had pondered becoming a part time landlord as an investment, this is a really interesting read.

0x445442 10y ago
My parents were landlords when I was growing up and I thought about getting into it myself. When I was looking into it I think 8% was the ballpark ROI most landlords were shooting for. Remembering back to what my parents went through my thoughts were Meh, I can find other ways to put my money and myself to work.
Norandomguy 10y ago
Some random advice to you or anyone else: it's not as easy as you think. The housing boom over the past 20 years makes everyone belive that real estate is the path to easy wealth. But being a landlord takes work and offers a market return. There is no magic. Those people who tell you "I just collect the rent" haven't been doing it long enough.
- falcolas 10y ago
  Or they turn over a good portion of that rent to a third party to do the actual maintenance and management of the properties (a big business in and of itself).
  - bbcbasic 10y ago
    3% and tax deductible? It's probably worth it.
    - cmclaughlin 10y ago
      10% is standard
      - mcguire 10y ago
        For property management? That's what I'm paying; they handle everything, including hiring subcontractors for maintenance and repairs. Works out well, if they're good about picking renters.

pdog 10y ago

If none of this sounds appealing to you, consider investing in a real estate investment trust (REIT). These are companies that purchase office buildings, hotels, and other properties and distribute their rental income as dividends. For example, Vanguard has a diversified REIT ETF with a minuscule expense ratio and a healthy 4% yield: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundIntExt=INT&FundId=0986 https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/snapshot?FundIntExt=I...

adventurer 10y ago
Real estate looks as if it is way over-priced at this point. If you don't want the tax benefits of owning a rental, why not index fund your money, then you would be almost double the 4% long-term, either way.
- eldavido 10y ago
  Which market? I agree a lot of hot metros are looking expensive (SF, Seattle). Things are cheaper in places farther from growth and money, e.g. rural Indiana. I'm not sure whether they're better deals on balance, but quite different.
  - sitkack 10y ago
    Just what those people living in those places need. More investors making money off their condition. The rent is already too damn high.
    - mcguire 10y ago
      Watch how high it gets when investors pull out of the market.
    - nradov 10y ago
      REIT investors aren't the cause of high rents. Actually the opposite. Every dollar they put in lowers the cost of capital for property developers and encourages the construction of new housing units.

ikeboy 10y ago

>Then sit with the tenant at a bar or coffee shop and read through the whole of it before the signing. Hm.

ryanmarsh 10y ago

Being a landlord, hiring people, working directly with the general public (retail, food service) are eye opening experiences. I watched my father be the kind of land lord anyone would hope to have just to watch some people destroy his property and treat him with hostility. Now I know why your landlord treats you like he expects the worst from you. I hired people for work they cared about (non profit), treated them well, the earned prestige and leadership experience they couldn't have had in their previous jobs just to watch them turn on me and spread lies and toxicity and try to destroy the organization because I praised someone else's work too. Now I know why companies treat people like they expect the worst from them. I worked at a Taco Bell and Starbucks. People yelled at us and treated us like scum for the offense of working for minimum wage. Apparently people who make more than minimum wage automatically have more intrinsic human value? I'll never know. But I know I'll excuse a lot with retail and food workers because my life is roughly 30x times better than theirs.

draw_down 10y ago
> Apparently people who make more than minimum wage automatically have more intrinsic human value? I'll never know. Oh, in America at least that is certainly the case. We hate and ridicule the poor.
manyxcxi 10y ago
I don't know about people actually believing they have more intrinsic value because they make more than minimum wage, I just think the problems comes from a few areas: - They were/are getting treated like shit and are transferring the energy on - People are increasingly 'busy' leading to higher levels of stress and anxiety that just have them snapping easier - There's a lot more of us than there used to be, so even if the percentages stayed constant, there's a lot more f%cking twats running around out there Especially with younger people I professionally interact with (I'm 34), but also with age peers, I've noticed that a shockingly large percentage have never had that job experience of working at a place that was crappy, for minimal pay, bad hours, tough work, etc. Generally they didn't work at all until maybe a couple of internships in college, or some other form of light entry into the workforce. I think it really does something to create a lack of empathy for those people not in a situation exactly like ours. My personal belief is it doesn't matter what our two situations are, being an asshole is being an asshole. If you're going to be a jerk to someone who's working a random lunch counter, you're probably just generally a jerk the majority of the time. Wealth, status, fame, are no excuses for a lack of human decency.

dbg31415 10y ago

I have a rental property... I used to live there, then I bought a house closer to work and rented out the original house with plans of moving back there some day. Now... I'll never move back. It's in a nice neighborhood, rent requires the people who live there to probably make $150-200k a year... you'd think it'd be OK... But nope. Anyway every part of the article is true. The rest of this is just be venting for therapeutic reasons. Ha. First... you really don't make that much money off the property. Once you pay for maintenance upkeep, and taxes, and taxes on the income you get as rent... you just aren't making much... if anything from the renters. I'm probably losing money on my renters... but I make it back (in theory) in property value gains. Second... holy hell, some people just should never leave apartments. And all the stereotypes are true. You have to assume they are all out to fuck you over... and incompetent... if you don't, you'll be in for a lot of disappointment. I rented to an Indian family for 12 months, and after I had to have the place scrubbed top to bottom, ducts all cleaned... and it still smelled like curry. New tenant was furious at me for "not cleaning"... I have no idea how to get the curry smell out. I spent over $2k in professional cleaning services... over 2x what it cost to de-cat-pee the place... now I never want to rent to another Indian family. We literally hand-washed the walls, twice... Then eventually repainted everything inside (another $4k)... the house has no carpets or curtains... no clue how the smell stayed. And I had to give a discount to the new tenant for 4 months because of the smell. There is a fan over the stove... but it clearly never got used when they were cooking. I rented to a Chinese family for 6 months... and I think they moved like 10 people into a 3 bedroom house. I only met the first couple... but every time I went there were 2 cars in the garage, 2 in the driveway, and at least 4 on the street. And every time I would knock on the door a different person answered in broken English. Families with kids... will trash your property. And they will bitch and bitch that things were broken before they moved in, their precious snowflakes didn't burn parts of the walls, or drill holes, or kick the drywall under their desk so much it cracked all up the wall... Pets are disgusting. Cats stink. Dogs are destructive. I had to re-do the wood floors after a tenant's dog clawed them all to shit... had to sue the tenant for damages. "It's normal wear and tear!" they insisted... but they had a 120 pound dog whose nails they never bothered to trim. I got smart and just replaced everything with tile after that. For a rental... just pretend you're dealing with malicious jerks who are bent on destroying anything nice you put in the house... and then plan accordingly. Tenants will lie and lie and lie again to get out of paying for damages. And worse than lie, they do shit that makes it hard to find the true damages... forget toothpaste in the walls to cover up nail holes... I had a tenant put duct tape over drywall and then use spackling paste and paint on top of that. It looked just good enough that if you were in a rush you may have signed off on his move out damages. I had another family try and prop a closet door up, one that took out the inner glass of a window so it wouldn't appear broken (still had the outer glass) -- but then it made it a harder job to replace the glass because they had bent the frame all to shit. Cost them more than if they would have just told me about the break in the first place... They aren't at all honest about what they fuck up, and they don't have a clue what it costs to fix something correctly. "Man, faucets only cost like $40 at Costco... why you charging me $500?!" Well... because the faucets you destroyed were nice faucets that cost around $350 each, and there's an installation fee... and I'm not even charging you for the other faucet that I have to replace so the two will still match in the master... I'm also covering the damage to the granite counter top where you hit it with a hammer or whatever when you were trying to tighten your vice grips on the faucet handle instead of calling me when you initially broke it a year ago..." Tenants always sneak in dogs, cats, extra roommates... My first lease agreement was 10 pages... the last one I used was about 45. It spells out everything that I know to include... plus penalties... "Don't sit on the damn roof, asphalt composite shingles are not meant to be walked on when it's 100 degrees outside... you're getting charged for replacing 1/3rd of the roof because you put lawn chairs up on the roof and literally were up there so often you wore a path in the shingles..." "Don't smoke in the house, but if you are going to smoke in the house... don't just cut the wires to the smoke alarms and just tuck them back up in the drywall." Despite hiding all the shit they do, and bitching about things they notice... most of them are incompetent at owning a house... won't report water on the windowsill leaking in right away until there's rot in the wood and the whole frame has to be replaced... won't report a wasp nest growing out of the rafters in the roof until it's a $1,200 job to remove it... will let their kids hang off of the ceiling fans and fuck those all up... Some people should never live in a house... put them in an all brick apartment building with cement floors and reinforced windows. There's a reason public schools are built the way they are. You lose so much faith in people when you rent property. If you don't assume they're all out to fuck you over... you'll get fucked over. It'll cost you a fortune in repairs, and so much hassle and stress because the dipshit who rented from you will fight you tooth and nail... and cry about every little cost... when in fact they aren't even paying 50% of what it really cost to get it repaired... let alone the time you lose because you can't rent it in the shitty condition they left it in.

k__ 10y ago

It's nothing special. Every time you interact with people you have to start from zero. Don't let idiots make you bitter forever.

eternalvision 10y ago

This article is from February. Some process possibly involving random inputs, led to OP posting this article today. Yet, I've observed a lifetime of such randomness as anything but random in my little perception of the universe.

pixelbill 10y ago

People, in general, are terrible. Landlords, in general, are the worst human beings alive.

sgarman 10y ago
Dang, I thought the article did a good job showing me why people think that but it's not so cut and dry.
sctb 10y ago
We've banned this account for posting mostly uncivil and/or unsubstantive comments. We're happen to unban accounts if you email hn@ycombinator.com and we believe you'll stop posting like this.

branchless 10y ago

The tenant works, dad landlord ring up for a cut. Poor landlords having to do some work!

Integrity 10y ago

I've never been a landlord but have known two over the course of their rental property careers. They went from being amicable to noticing and expecting the worst from people, essentially becoming jaded. And the transformation is similar in quality to many police officers, how they wear an expression on their face as if humanity has broken their heart. Watching this impacted me enough to decide that I'd never want to be a landlord. It's an odd position to be in in the first place. To be responsible, in a sense, for how others live.